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Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:48:00 - [181] Edited by: Krulla on 28/05/2007 08:49:53 You people make me laugh. Keeping the customers happy is what puts the roof over the heads of CCP employees and they're families, and puts dinner on they're tables. To any sane person, that is infinitely more important than cheating in a video game. Yes, there's been one proven allegation, yes, there's been others that are currently under investigation, but to assume that most if not all CCP employees cheat is just plain ignorant. Kieron stated somewhere (can't remember where) that CCP developer/GM accounts were kept strictly seperate from they're playing accounts, and that if they revealed to any player what position they held, the character would immediately be deleted. If you honestly think the game would be better with GMs who have never had the same problems as you're petitioning, or with Devs who have no feel for the game they are developing, you are quite honestly wrong. No, I'm not a BoB alt. No, I've never been in BoB. I just have a bit of common sense. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:55:00 - [182] Be careful with that common sense Krulla, I was proven to be an idiot when I tried to use it earlier Very good points raised there.
Nostic Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:03:00 - [183] Edited by: Nostic on 28/05/2007 09:02:20 I was told by a GM once when shooting a bugged outpost that they should document their game and post clear rules, since it's impossible to tell what are bugs and what are features (bumping stuff out of pos's, shooting through shields, are you kidding me?). His response was that players need to discover things themselves. This is where it's inherently unfair to have any devs in any alliance and in contact with any players. Information is priceless in this game, and with undocumented rules, it's unfair to have a dev in your alliance whether it's known by other players or not.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:45:00 - [184] To claim that the t20 incident was a one off thing is rubbish. The t20 brought the whole corruption to the light because if there was nothing to it then why was the whistleblower banned? Why was t20 rewarded? Because there's more to it than meets the eye. CCP can investigate all they want but the whole t20 affair has damaged their credibility so badly that many will never believe what they say is truth. Kieron can be as nice as he may be and he might have devoted his life to us but he is still being told what to do and what not to do by CCP, his employers. So is he going to tell the truth? Does he have the power to tell the truth? Does he even know the truth? We don't know, don't delude yourselves that you do. You either believe CCP or you don't. Either way there's a propaganda war going on and I've chosen my side. Sure CCP might deny me help and sure I could send a few letters to the Office of Fair Trading in London and Brussels. But by then it's gone too far and it's time for all to leave the game. And this isn't just about DS1 or some stupid pos. This is about BoD having CCP/Dev's MSN and being able to contact them through different channels, channels which we aren't privileged to. [ 2007.03.20 06:30:15 ] Orange Species > isd reporters are not to interfere with gameplay [ 2007.03.20 06:30:22 ] Orange Species > that includes getting too close [ 2007.03.20 06:30:25 ] Orange Species > to our ships [ 2007.03.20 06:30:32 ] D4kkon > petition her [ 2007.03.20 06:30:57 ] Orange Species > nah no petition [ 2007.03.20 06:31:00 ] Orange Species > msn chat is enough [ 2007.03.20 06:31:05 ] D4kkon > rgr Be fair, be open and do your job CCP!! Give us all Dev's MSN adresses. Don't just repeat CCP by claiming that the investigation will be fair. If BoD can just contact their Dev mates and have an ISD reporter banned then there's something seriously wrong and the core of this apple is more than rotten. Mirial was in browsing (illegally) one of these ISD forums when one of the 'recommended' story paths was mandated by CCP, namely "_____ side must win, see to this immediately." NOW THAT IS FAIRNESS!!!! All of you with common sense, please respond to my post and please tell us all why CCP won't give us all Dev's MSN addresses.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:45:00 - [185] Originally by: Mortania Originally by: Cergorach The ex blizard employee: I wonder why he is an ex employee. I also wonder what position he held. That's the cheapest bull. A massive percentage of the entire company left after completing WoW because basically no one who worked on the product got any sort of bonuses. Not a dime. Thanks for the 100s of Millions. Keep working hard! I know nothing but ex-Blizzard employees. I don't know anyone who stayed on but the highest of the high. hehe you actually gave him a answer? .. i thought he was to stupid to even deserve the answer and the slap ;) but well thanks for doing it anyway ;) hehe... problem is as you yourself has pointed out, unless they do something exstreme the trust will be broken, and once broken it will never return and people will jump from the game as soon as anything else that seems like the smallest interest comes out.. this will be the death of the game unless something is done, no it will not die right now, and properly not for 1-2 years but then it's gone. the only way a game can hold players for a very long time is getting those players to "trust and love" you and what you do, having the players "on your side" so to speak. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Belial02 Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:48:00 - [186] Im afraid CCP staff shouldnt be allowed to have any contact with players, let alone discussing in game features. They of course can play their own game as standards chars but must never reveal their identity. GMs are a different matter, for they are needed, but now who can we trust? If one bit of what that (supposedly) ex-ISD guy said is true, i fee sad for the devs, cause they are now flagged as untrustworthy persons and BoB name's have been tarnished once more. If the devs helped establishing an already very comfortable position with advantages that shouldnt even exist, then CCP and BoB didnt play by the rules. Im afraid that, if all of this wasnt forged, some accounts should be deleted. Originally by: Omeega diplomacy is f1, f2, f3, really...
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:51:00 - [187] Originally by: Adaris To OP: Your only addressing the GMs/Gods that are breaking the rules and helping people. By all means they should be removed from GM status and demoted to normal players, but not every other GM who follows the rules of this game (ccp rules too) and does their job by helping out thousands of people per day. Your enitre argument to me is based on all GMs doing this, its not the case. A few bad apples, and you condemn the enitre orchard. Honestly. tired so short answer: read the post on thie tread and you will get alot of reasons WHY we can not have them on the live server alongside with us.. simply it's too risky, and doesn't benefith the game in the long run ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:55:00 - [188] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: n0thing Edited by: n0thing on 27/05/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars stuff Ok, well lets do a small break down: 1: - Still, in current issue only thing I heard is that actually, a POS was bugged, then in order to fix it the following actions were done. You cant predict if info was gathered, or even was passed. Each corp and each alliance have more or less at least 1 alt in it. Yep, it can be a regular lowest-rank pilot, yet it can be someone established within same party, or just asked someone of higher rank and he couldnt keep his mount closed. Also a very easy explanation. - I really doubt that of about how much? I think around 50-60+ of team members all play as same entity. That wouldnt just make sense from the beginning. - Agree about penalties, but you still cant prevent anyone at all from at least monitoring game process. ---
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:55:00 - [189] Originally by: Belenkas Being Developer in another game, I can assure you it is in best DEV intentions to keep the gameplay fair and DEV never constructs tools for himself to use ingame to make him uber-player. That's of course if the developers are looking forward to keeping the game alive and actually earning money for living from it. I am sure EVE is amongst those(despite some bad experiences regarding developer misconduct in the past) Playing the game you create makes it possible to see some unbalanced stuff yourself, since amongst players there always are 1000 opinions. And playing the game you create just makes work be fun. yer sure.. so why arn't they doing anything about it?! they could start by pulling out and stop helping bob+pets just to SHOW that they don't intend to "move" the game by godlike power to one side or another... and they could make sure that people breaking the trust where fired and that THEY actually found out who it was so it didn't have to be the players that accidentally found out that they where cheating.. which just means if you see them do it, they are doing it so much that it stinks, because its very unlucky for a demi-god to be cought by mortals. so to speak.. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Rillian Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:03:00 - [190] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. Theres this server called Singularity AKA test server they can use to improve the game they do not have to be on tranquility to do so. Heres the thing... its not if there has been any wrong doing on anyones part its the perception of wrong doing thats causing the problems and the simplist way to fix that and regain the trust of their customers is to not allow it. plain and simple

The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:26:00 - [191] Originally by: MehTheTrader I absolutely disgusted with games with cheats. Cheating is rampant in ccp no doubt, how can it not be with the system. CCP's defense against cheating is they trust their devs, this is omfg rediclous. The funniest/sadest part of this all is they rehired t20. LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH CCP!!?? BRAIN FART! Could he actually be replaced? Think about it. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:35:00 - [192] No they shouldnt be playing "hidden" charracters on a single server world in huge game shaking player Alliances. Period. It's insanity. Excuse me, but when you have players boasting of (and using) out of game friendships and alternative means of contacting a Dev unavailable to other players, there is a problem. Couple this with the secretiveness of CCP's current ruleset concerning petitions and other issues....it's not hard to see why people quit due to the perception that they are paying to play a rigged game. Every retort I get to this statement seems to be along the lines of "well, its unlikely to ever afffect you!". Maybe true, maybe not. That is so far from the POINT it's silly. The problem is the ease of which the game can be manipulated by ISD/GM's/DEVS who play, in-game with their MSN friends for years...But of course, theres never ANY problem there so sayeth CCP/BoB who always seem to be marching in lockstep on any issue. The bottom line is, even if they are all Mother Theresa's, (which they arent) it's bad buisness and foments mistrust, and everything a certain huge player Alliance does will be tainted by mistrust and unease. Is it a buisness or not? Do they care about their rep or not? Is it someone personal playground or not? Is it a level playing field or not? How is anyone here to KNOW? We dont, we can't know for sure, these problems keep popping up over and over,therefore people like me have said f..k it and killed our sub. shrugs CCP will do what CCP will do. It WON'T involve stricter controlls or forcing employees out of the player game. It's obviously much more important that they play in secret with their friends.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:44:00 - [193] Who cares? I do not, anything a GM or DEV could do is squat and no big deal. Just that fact that anyone is worried about it is testimony that how great of a RL simulation this is, if we lived in the real EVE universe. People actually started playing this game BECAUSE of the allegations made. I mean how much would you care if some dev gave him self some cool looking purple +42 wizard hat in WoW? LOL Some Gank or even some one exploiting makes 100 times more difference in the game then these so called rumors would. Get real and understand it makes no difference, it is a game, just a game. If it were 1000 times worse then maybe I would agree but it is not. Also if we had several shards like the other MMO's it would be even more pathetic to even care if some GM was playing and what extra goodie they gave them selves. So again people see that and actually start playing this game because of this. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:56:00 - [194] The gassing of the Jews didn't affrct most the world so why did they get involved in the war anyway? Oh wait, this is a game not reality. Stick your head in the sand and lie to yourself that the money you pay to CCP is only to play a game and if the CEO ever decides to take the money and run then whatever. Oh sorry, that was also reality. Eh... people with common sense please come help me out! People who say this doesn't affect them have never left 1.0 let alone fought in a major war like the war raging now. You're fighting and the pos is going down then all of a sudden the opposing teams ships become indestructible. Your whole fleet gets wasted. It's a game man, so what that you worked hard for a year for that cap ship? So what that you paid money to a company that will help a side because they can? So what that people who lose over and over again get fed up and leave to play a better game? So what that you're the last person in the game? It's a game!!! The war in Vietnam didn't affect most of the war so why were they against it?
Damares Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:56:00 - [195] it really is a complex matter, you could say, "hey let the dev's make their own corp only for dev's, not allowed to take sov e.t.c but still allowed to play" but that isnt fair on the law abiding dev's, as they dont get to do half the fun stuff in the game, basicaly any solution hurts the dev's who play fair in some way, really all i see as a fair punishment is any dev caught cheating should be banned from playing any account apart from his dev permanently, he shouldnt ever be allowed to play the game again on a normal account, that way the ones who dont cheat dont suffer, the ones who do cheat suffer, and the ones who consider cheating are less likely to cheat. also dev's in game characters should never ever ever answer personal requests from player friends... ever.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:00:00 - [196] OP is a Goon alt and obviously biased. OP is obviously incappable of seperating his in game ire from his "discussion". OP is another one of these combative posters who thinks he can call people stupid if they don't agree with him. This thread fails. If someone can lead an unbiased discussion about this topic, I'm all for it. Goons or BoB need not apply. ------------------- Say What?
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:10:00 - [197] Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 11:08:58 Originally by: Roy Batty68 OP is a Goon alt and obviously biased. He's an ex-Goon main actually. I check his profile after he sided with Skunk on an arguement a few weeks back. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Rilder Caldari THC LTD	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:26:00 - [198] Hmm, I may not be in a big alliance but, the dev doing something wrong didn't hurt me any, I didn't lose any money or ships cause some dev did some little thing wrong; nope. So imho I don't care. Besides why are you all witch hunting the Devs why not count how much good they do instead of how much bad they do, everybody makes mistakes, get over it were human. -Rilder
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:35:00 - [199] Originally by: Ryas Nia Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game. For once, I agree with this terrorist. Delictum 23216 Official forums
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:38:00 - [200] @OP 1 - Nobody in real life should have MSN or any chat-with-your-buddies software at work. 2 - No GM/Dev/Whatever should be allowed to play more than 30 sec to change a skill at work. 3 - DBA shouldn't play the game AT ALL. Even with uncorped characters, etc. 4 - More Ethics in CCP should not be hard to acheive, I don't have a small clue of an existing one (oh yes, I would have one clue for once if only CCP would take actions against their employees if they are at fault - but what I see is, for exemple for T20 : "- This guy faulted. - Oh come on, he's working with us for so long, he made a great job, let's cover him. - Okay. Let's say to all the morons, err, players, that we will hit him internally but we will keep him. - Hey, hey, may I apply ? I'm a deep fan of this game since 3 years with 'insert-a-random-allaince-here'. You can trust me, I'm not a cheater. - Of course you can. Here, take the GM cap and have fun." ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)

Ovno ConSyquence Amarr The Plebians	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:42:00 - [201] I see no problem with the devs playing the game, as long as the new internal affairs department does its job right and catches people if they do cheat, hopefully its very existance will scare the few who might be tempted into not doing it anyway....
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:44:00 - [202] Originally by: Ben Nato The gassing of the Jews didn't affrct most the world so why did they get involved in the war anyway? oh, you have some really high thoughts about humanity! to think that is the reason any country got involved in WW2 is... well... noot fit for an adult (or a child older than 10) france got invloved for obvius reasons, england was treatened, us got scared of an united (and agressive) europe, russia got backstabbed, smaller countries was forced, africa belonged to europe, asia got their own agenda. NOTHING had anything to do with the jews! on topic: I think it is good that the devs play. but they have to be careful what they do and it might not be apropirate to have an inportant possision in an alliance or stay too long on the same side of a war, for the risk of inacceptible godly interventions
Vana Gank Gallente Nosferatu Security Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:45:00 - [203] I say let CCP run the game they feel is the right way to do it. It's their business, and they are the one's loosing cusomters / gains new customer based on their result as a company supporting their game. I think just having a "Player-vote" over this is somewhat immature. -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
adriaans Amarr Interstellar StarShipWrights Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:48:00 - [204] Yes they should be allowed to play the game --sig-- Knowledge is power!
Alrich	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:48:00 - [205] if they have anything like the empoyment rules we have in sweden, they cant fire an emplyee for such a 'minor' fault. especially since it was a first time offence. (dont think i could be fired if it was my 500'th offence either)
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:07:00 - [206] Edited by: DrAtomic on 28/05/2007 12:10:19 Yes official CCP staff should be allowed to play the game, heck they should be forced to play it even... :o) ISD should have it's abilities nerfed big time and be restricted to help channel support, first line ticket support and forum moderation with nothing more then the abilities that normal players have (allow gagging in help channel and forum), they should NOT be able to see which characters there are on someones account etc. Aurora staff should be supervised by CCP staff. CCP needs a close look at its command structure (a staff member playing the game should NOT be able to have one of the most productive reporters banned over nothing, he should just petition it like we all do and receive the answer that there is no server sided proof to support his claim like we muppets get). CCP needs to stop lying: "GM's are unable to delete petitions", yet petitions get deleted. All CCP staff and volunteers need to be removed from BoB and their allies (sadly), all t2 stuff in possesion of BoB members that is of the same type of the dreadfull t2 bpo's needs to be removed (they had the advantage of it, now suffer a disadvantage from it, yes it will hurt innocent players, but innocent players have been killed by cheated stuff long enough). Also POS bowling needs to be stopped, it's not within the game's spirit and reeks of cheating especially when you suddenly allow it and BoB is doing it. CCP needs to restore faith with the community and needs drastic measures to do so. Give BoB the opportunity to proof their worth without any CCP staff support like us normal players. Edit: for the record I 100% believe Sharkbait was just doing his job, he's one of the most dedicated Devs out there often working in his sparetime to solve issues in the live game. As far as I'm concerned the real issues are deleted petitions (which internal afairs said was impossible) and the polaris incident. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. My Top 10 List
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:21:00 - [207] Originally by: Ulii Originally by: Ben Nato The gassing of the Jews didn't affrct most the world so why did they get involved in the war anyway? oh, you have some really high thoughts about humanity! to think that is the reason any country got involved in WW2 is... well... noot fit for an adult (or a child older than 10) france got invloved for obvius reasons, england was treatened, us got scared of an united (and agressive) europe, russia got backstabbed, smaller countries was forced, africa belonged to europe, asia got their own agenda. NOTHING had anything to do with the jews! on topic: I think it is good that the devs play. but they have to be careful what they do and it might not be apropirate to have an inportant possision in an alliance or stay too long on the same side of a war, for the risk of inacceptible godly interventions And what about all the countries who weren't 'backstabbed' but got involved because they did it out of principle? And that's what it's about, principle. If you have no principle then it doesn't affect you. But now let's get back to EVE shall we? ISK farmers, they don't affect either of us so why would we care? They inflate the economy and basically destroy it, but it's a game. So who cares? Who cares that you keep rowing upstream and fighting a losing battle? It's only a game. People who think that lack morals and principles because who cares what goes on anywhere? It doesn't affect you and this is why CCP has been able to get away with whatever it is that they want.
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:45:00 - [208] Originally by: Ben Nato And what about all the countries who weren't 'backstabbed' but got involved because they did it out of principle? And that's what it's about, principle. If you have no principle then it doesn't affect you. please name those who did join because of principles, it would give me back some faith in the human race. and why aren't any of those interrested in getting involved in the darfur crisis, wich is probably the greatest humanitarian catastrophe at the moment Originally by: Ben Nato But now let's get back to EVE shall we? ISK farmers, they don't affect either of us so why would we care? They inflate the economy and basically destroy it, but it's a game. So who cares? Who cares that you keep rowing upstream and fighting a losing battle? It's only a game. People who think that lack morals and principles because who cares what goes on anywhere? It doesn't affect you and this is why CCP has been able to get away with whatever it is that they want. ccp must make a good display that they dont favor BOB and somehow make a publish punishment for all involved (even if it means givving them an extra large cristmas present this year. but dont let it leak out)
Kvaell Minmatar Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:53:00 - [209] The problem is that with devs and gms actively palying the game, some players are bound to recieve information or pointers not ment for public. This is an egde towards other players no matter how you look at it. I doubt they cheat as it would be folly and if they do, well, see forward to fewer subscribers. Also have a "direct line" to some people from "the inside" is not necessarily bad but again getting your bugs handled faster than others is an advantage. That said I doubt dev+gm support is the reason why some alliances are more succesful than others. Teamwork and high activity is key in that. But for gm and dev playing the game to get a better understanding for the game, shouldn't they be scattered al over the universe? Some issues are very region specific. Honestly I don't know where they are, besides of all whiners (some BoB even) says they are pretty concentrated.
Probeltis Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:00:00 - [210] Yes and no. Yes we should keep them in game. If they don't play it, they can't improve it. but No, they should not be able to play in any of the top 15 alliances. Here's why: In a game like EVE there is more than just your skills and the ability to blow stuff up. While the GM's and Devs probably play as a character that has no more in game power than you or I, they bring with them a pre-existing knowledge of other alliance assets, tactics, positions, etc. that they gain through preforming their dev/GM duties. That is, they bring intelligence into the alliances/corps they are playing with. In a game such as Eve, intelligence can be more valuable than the ability to do '/heal all 0' or whatever people think they would do. And before I get flamed, No, I don't think the Dev/GM's would intentionally give out intel on another alliance. It's not the intentional information but the occasional "lets go here", instead of where everyone wants to go at the time. I love Eve and I love playing, and I hope the GM's/Devs love playing as much as I do. I want to play with devs, I would love to learn from and fly with a dev/gm if I ever get the chance, but they have to stay out of the top alliances/coalitions due to ingame politics. Just my $0.02. ------------------- blah blah blah, something about my views are mine not my alliance/corp, blah blah blah "There is no such thing as reality, There's only perception" --Don't know, I made it



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