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RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:46:00 - [1] Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase. Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Sincerely, RFwills
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:49:00 - [2] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... -- t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:53:00 - [3] I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:56:00 - [4] Edited by: Alski on 08/06/2007 05:55:34 First i'll just say i'm sorrey to hear your friend quit Eve, its never good and thats a pritty harsh way to go. Sadley though i'm just gonna say what everyone else is gonna say, and thats that highsec was never intented to be completeley safe, there is a ballance to be struck otherwise Eve wouldent be Eve. There are ways to protect yourself from suicide ganking, and not all of them involve teamwork or haveing anyone else or an alt around to help. That said being killed by the drones of ships that have been poped by concord was "exploiting" a game mechainic that could be defined as a bug since CCP saw fit to patch it (as drones are now poped by concord) I use the word "exploting" in quotes because in order to exploit you have to be aware of the fact that what you are doing is a bug. That was something not clear untill CCP decided it was and promptley patched it, so... there really isent anything that can be or should be done. Hope all your friend needed was a break though, a big loss can do that i guess. -
Ker Ching	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... Thanks for that valuable input. It explains everything so well. Back to the OP.....it's just the insurance thing again. 'Victims' of Concord should not get insurance payouts. End of story.
Gerrard Lea Caldari StarSky Military Services	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:59:00 - [6] No place is safe, only safer :P Although it probably would be best if CCP increased concords abilities a little bit. Also people shouldn't whine when they are unprepared for such events.
JamesTalon Caldari Electric Fury Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:02:00 - [7] Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! It can, its called not hauling everything you own thats worth something in a ship as paperthin as a T1 hauler. And its not an exploit, as the people who suicide gank people like your friends do get punished by the loss of a ship when Concord comes in. Now, if they do not lose a ship, then it is classed exploit and CCP will step in. However, as High sec is just supposed to be safER and not 100% safe. After all, even in 1.0 space, you can still suicide gank people, just much harder. "Return with your shield, or on it."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Ker Ching Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... Thanks for that valuable input. It explains everything so well. Considering he contradicts his own premise in the SAME PARAGRAPH, I'd say its all that is necessary. Other methods ignored by the OP include insta warping indys (e.g. Sigil with I-stabs and Nanofibers) using warp to zero, heavily tanked transport ships, having a scout, etc... Honestly if you don't take ANY EFFORT to avoid being ganked, you aren't going to generate much sympathy. -- t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:03:00 - [9] "PvP in EVE is consentual(sp), you agree to it when you log in" this is not your standard MMO, here there be monsters
Khu'ra Minmatar Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:04:00 - [10] Warp to 0 ---- I need a signature. Will the mods give me a sig? I hope so. D:<

NereSky Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:07:00 - [11] No space is meant to be safe im afraid, although i do sympaphise - this happens all the time, as soon as you undock you are a possible target which is the beauty of Eve. Also you cannot Compare Eve to RL, to gank in high sec requires co-ordination and risk imo , and payouts should always reflect risk. transporting high value goods through empire requires planning and prep , not just jumping in a t1 hauler and auto piloting afk, use a blockade runner , row of wcs or a friend/alt. i hope your friend recovers from his loss soon and and basically treats it like a expensive lesson. fly safe
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:10:00 - [12] The ONLY TWO SURE WAYS to protect yourself COMPLETELY from suicide gankers ? 1. Never haul stuff that's worth more than what's needed to pop you open in the couple of seconds before CONCORD arrives and toasts the offenders. 2. Always use at least one scout, best use several scouts, on both sides of the next gate AND on arrival gate. Everything else is just caca-del-torro. Nothing else really helps there. You CAN'T hide stuff in cans, not even secure ones, and especially not in courier packages. All the contents of all the containers you carry show up in cargoscans. You CAN'T get help from friends to survive the suiciding. If CONCORD can't stop them from killing you, do you really think they'll be bothered by a few friends ? Or, better said, do you think they stand a chance remote repairing you ? If that was the case, they'd do it all the time in fleet battles when people get called primary. THAT NEVER HAPPENDS, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. Note: even the above "surefire ways to protect your cargo" are not 100% idiot-proof. There could always be a traitor involved, especially if you carry a large amount of valuable stuff around on a regular basis. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:10:00 - [13] darwin selection he should have made himself more aware of the real rules in eve high sec is not safe. Suicide ganks have been here since day one thats 4 years and counting exploit youre wrong
Knerf Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:15:00 - [14] with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:18:00 - [15] The solution is simple, actually. People should get globally criminal flagged for picking up non corp/gang member loot from the wrecks behind a CONCORD intervention. The suicide gankers should have a spy in the victim's corp (to pick up the loot). That's quite easy for NPC corp members... so the only protection there is to join a player corp. But ouch, now there's wardecs to be considered. Sounds about fair to me. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:27:00 - [16] Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:30:00 - [17] Of course, one could also make cargo scanners hostile acts, so you'd have to sacrifice security status and a ship just to SCAN somebody's cargo in highsec. Basically, unless you know who your target is and you want to make absolutely sure... well, you get the idea. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:42:00 - [18] Im liking the proactive points people have been making to help address the problem. I really appreciate it. Hopefully this gets recognized and thought on by the engineers of this fabulous game. _______________________________________________ Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:47:00 - [19] Originally by: RFwills He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. Quitting EVE over loss is naturally sad. However - a 2 year old player hauling 2 billion worth of goods in Jita space that seems to be full of gankers lately ... errr ... come on. Originally by: RFwills The whole point of Hi sec is safety. Says who? It has been said a thousand times: hi-sec is safer not safe. Originally by: RFwills You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. 'Cause you liked that obviously doesn't mean necessarily you should. Originally by: RFwills I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. First it's not an exploit. And second a couple of forum whiners don't represent the majority of EVE. Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. Nothing is too much a word. But I agree protecting a dumb T1 hauler can be tricky. On the other hand - if you want to haul stuff worth billions maybe someone shouldn't use a T1 hauler? Or do you run level 4 missions in a frig since it's cheaper? Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? What? The innocent .... good one . Ok some clarification: Concord is not Police. Concord is a faction independet organization that serves only one purpose: punishing illegal acts of aggression in hi-sec. Their ships are already equipped with a T2 I win button. What more do you want? Originally by: RFwills The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. That is correct. And I admit that there are flaws. Even if a ganker doesn't get anything insurance will cover his loss. And given the current ship build costs he'd actually make profit out of it. The sec hit for ganking is kind of negligible if you ain't doing it full-time. So you are right - for some people a career in the ganking field might seem attractive. But that is just one further reason to be more careful and alert even and especially in hi-sec.
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! that sounds dumb why AFK haul that not playing eve at all ! i hope you get podded a good number of times for not staying in the game .

Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:59:00 - [21] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question. If I lost billions in a gank due to own stupidity I'd bite my ass instead of whining on forums TBH. According to your question: Yes I'd definitely play EVE if almost every hi-sec gate had suicide gangs 'cause I'd be in such a gang. And last but not least: you want a healthy debate? Would be easier if you stopped acting like a drama queen.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:00:00 - [22] you have given me motivation to now as well go suicide gank some haulers just for fun
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:03:00 - [23] I like your style, nevertheless I am not acting like a drama queen. If I come off that way I apologize. And yeah you could "be" in such a gang. But how are you going to buy minerals? Get those t2 goodies from Jita? Or go to that infamous hi quality agent youve been wokrin for with a cargo full of t2 missiles? Certainly you will find something unfavorable. If you dont then you must have optimism at lvl 5. Cus I see something wrong here. _______________________________________________ Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that
Rodge Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Knerf with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all. Why would they apply the same result when it was a completely different situation? The PA guy found a way of getting around his -10 sec status. He lost absolutely nothing when he killed people in high sec. He did not get punished at all. The suicide gankers lose sec status and will eventually be banned from high sec. They are getting punished for the crime. Sig inappropriate-not eve related -Abdalion [ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:07:00 - [25] Just a couple points since this has been pretty well picked over. Author how could your friend, a multi year veteran of EVE not know that Jita is the gank capitol of EVE? Why would he not take precautions if he had that kind of ISK in one hull? I've never been that wealthy but I'll tell you I'm a dang sight more careful with the gear I do have. Finally, as many many people have said. There is no "safe" space in EVE. I encourage you to make a new character, and just play through the tutorial real quick. It makes twp points pretty clear. 1, No where is safe 2,Concord is not there to protect, they are there to punish. Those two are covered pretty hard in the new player help section too. -Galan
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:20:00 - [26] I've always giggled at the response to suicide ganking.. "Don't haul stuff in haulers/freighters and it won't happen" Ooook... let's not use the 800k-1mill m3 of space GIVEN to us by CCP so we can avoid this mindless tactic. (yes, mindless, you're not "smart" for thinking it up, Smart people would think.. why commit suicide?) Commiting suicide to blow someone up and take their loot is... just.... childish... See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:22:00 - [27] Frankly, your friend was stupid to haul valuable cargo in Jita in that large quantity. Having said that, I agree with most of what you said. CONCORD and the insurance system are behaving ilogicaly. What I miss in the system is victim protection. I mean you get ganked, you loose all and still the police only kills the attackers in easy to replace ships. 1. Insurance contract invalid if killed by CONCORD. This should be a first step. 2. After you get suicided, CONCORD treats your wreck as confiscated (for 15 minutes or so) and only allows you to pick up the remains. Anybody else trying to take from it (or shoot it) is again killed by CONCORD and 1. applies. Or an alternative to 2. CONCORD takes the cargo to a station and you are notified where you can pick it up again. To all the "safer not safe" folks. There are already crimes going on in empire (ore theft, flag system abuse) so it is not safe. But there should be some consistency in the game (CONCORD behavior). You can be ganked and poded in empire, that's ok. But as stated by many people before me, risk vs. reward is screwed. Try getting 2b isk in any other way so fast and so risk free. I am sure all those clever folks will come up with all kinds of options ... Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:27:00 - [28] Originally by: RFwills I like your style, nevertheless I am not acting like a drama queen. If I come off that way I apologize. And yeah you could "be" in such a gang. But how are you going to buy minerals? Get those t2 goodies from Jita? Or go to that infamous hi quality agent youve been wokrin for with a cargo full of t2 missiles? Certainly you will find something unfavorable. If you dont then you must have optimism at lvl 5. Cus I see something wrong here. ZOMG! There are sooo much griefers in EVE! qualifies for the drama queen oscars. But that's just me. To your questions: short answer - I wouldn't need anything you mentioned. Your hypothesis is kind of pointless anyway. If almost all gates were camped then there would be almost no players left to actually play the game. And no I don't have Optimism on 5. I have Advanced Realism on 4. Works better for me.
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Originally by: RFwills I like your style, nevertheless I am not acting like a drama queen. If I come off that way I apologize. And yeah you could "be" in such a gang. But how are you going to buy minerals? Get those t2 goodies from Jita? Or go to that infamous hi quality agent youve been wokrin for with a cargo full of t2 missiles? Certainly you will find something unfavorable. If you dont then you must have optimism at lvl 5. Cus I see something wrong here. ZOMG! There are sooo much griefers in EVE! qualifies for the drama queen oscars. But that's just me. To your questions: short answer - I wouldn't need anything you mentioned. Your hypothesis is kind of pointless anyway. If almost all gates were camped then there would be almost no players left to actually play the game. And no I don't have Optimism on 5. I have Advanced Realism on 4. Works better for me. Oscars? I better get an isk prize as well. Your points have some sense to them, but you must remember: those who live by the sword, die by the sword. _______________________________________________ Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:33:00 - [30] Originally by: RFwills those who live by the sword, die by the sword. And you still refuse being a drama queen?



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