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RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:46:00 - [1] Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase. Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Sincerely, RFwills
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:49:00 - [2] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... -- t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:53:00 - [3] I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:56:00 - [4] Edited by: Alski on 08/06/2007 05:55:34 First i'll just say i'm sorrey to hear your friend quit Eve, its never good and thats a pritty harsh way to go. Sadley though i'm just gonna say what everyone else is gonna say, and thats that highsec was never intented to be completeley safe, there is a ballance to be struck otherwise Eve wouldent be Eve. There are ways to protect yourself from suicide ganking, and not all of them involve teamwork or haveing anyone else or an alt around to help. That said being killed by the drones of ships that have been poped by concord was "exploiting" a game mechainic that could be defined as a bug since CCP saw fit to patch it (as drones are now poped by concord) I use the word "exploting" in quotes because in order to exploit you have to be aware of the fact that what you are doing is a bug. That was something not clear untill CCP decided it was and promptley patched it, so... there really isent anything that can be or should be done. Hope all your friend needed was a break though, a big loss can do that i guess. -
Ker Ching	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... Thanks for that valuable input. It explains everything so well. Back to the OP.....it's just the insurance thing again. 'Victims' of Concord should not get insurance payouts. End of story.
Gerrard Lea Caldari StarSky Military Services	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:59:00 - [6] No place is safe, only safer :P Although it probably would be best if CCP increased concords abilities a little bit. Also people shouldn't whine when they are unprepared for such events.
JamesTalon Caldari Electric Fury Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:02:00 - [7] Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! It can, its called not hauling everything you own thats worth something in a ship as paperthin as a T1 hauler. And its not an exploit, as the people who suicide gank people like your friends do get punished by the loss of a ship when Concord comes in. Now, if they do not lose a ship, then it is classed exploit and CCP will step in. However, as High sec is just supposed to be safER and not 100% safe. After all, even in 1.0 space, you can still suicide gank people, just much harder. "Return with your shield, or on it."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Ker Ching Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... Thanks for that valuable input. It explains everything so well. Considering he contradicts his own premise in the SAME PARAGRAPH, I'd say its all that is necessary. Other methods ignored by the OP include insta warping indys (e.g. Sigil with I-stabs and Nanofibers) using warp to zero, heavily tanked transport ships, having a scout, etc... Honestly if you don't take ANY EFFORT to avoid being ganked, you aren't going to generate much sympathy. -- t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:03:00 - [9] "PvP in EVE is consentual(sp), you agree to it when you log in" this is not your standard MMO, here there be monsters
Khu'ra Minmatar Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:04:00 - [10] Warp to 0 ---- I need a signature. Will the mods give me a sig? I hope so. D:<
NereSky Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:07:00 - [11] No space is meant to be safe im afraid, although i do sympaphise - this happens all the time, as soon as you undock you are a possible target which is the beauty of Eve. Also you cannot Compare Eve to RL, to gank in high sec requires co-ordination and risk imo , and payouts should always reflect risk. transporting high value goods through empire requires planning and prep , not just jumping in a t1 hauler and auto piloting afk, use a blockade runner , row of wcs or a friend/alt. i hope your friend recovers from his loss soon and and basically treats it like a expensive lesson. fly safe
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:10:00 - [12] The ONLY TWO SURE WAYS to protect yourself COMPLETELY from suicide gankers ? 1. Never haul stuff that's worth more than what's needed to pop you open in the couple of seconds before CONCORD arrives and toasts the offenders. 2. Always use at least one scout, best use several scouts, on both sides of the next gate AND on arrival gate. Everything else is just caca-del-torro. Nothing else really helps there. You CAN'T hide stuff in cans, not even secure ones, and especially not in courier packages. All the contents of all the containers you carry show up in cargoscans. You CAN'T get help from friends to survive the suiciding. If CONCORD can't stop them from killing you, do you really think they'll be bothered by a few friends ? Or, better said, do you think they stand a chance remote repairing you ? If that was the case, they'd do it all the time in fleet battles when people get called primary. THAT NEVER HAPPENDS, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. Note: even the above "surefire ways to protect your cargo" are not 100% idiot-proof. There could always be a traitor involved, especially if you carry a large amount of valuable stuff around on a regular basis. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:10:00 - [13] darwin selection he should have made himself more aware of the real rules in eve high sec is not safe. Suicide ganks have been here since day one thats 4 years and counting exploit youre wrong
Knerf Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:15:00 - [14] with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:18:00 - [15] The solution is simple, actually. People should get globally criminal flagged for picking up non corp/gang member loot from the wrecks behind a CONCORD intervention. The suicide gankers should have a spy in the victim's corp (to pick up the loot). That's quite easy for NPC corp members... so the only protection there is to join a player corp. But ouch, now there's wardecs to be considered. Sounds about fair to me. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:27:00 - [16] Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:30:00 - [17] Of course, one could also make cargo scanners hostile acts, so you'd have to sacrifice security status and a ship just to SCAN somebody's cargo in highsec. Basically, unless you know who your target is and you want to make absolutely sure... well, you get the idea. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:42:00 - [18] Im liking the proactive points people have been making to help address the problem. I really appreciate it. Hopefully this gets recognized and thought on by the engineers of this fabulous game. _______________________________________________ Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:47:00 - [19] Originally by: RFwills He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. Quitting EVE over loss is naturally sad. However - a 2 year old player hauling 2 billion worth of goods in Jita space that seems to be full of gankers lately ... errr ... come on. Originally by: RFwills The whole point of Hi sec is safety. Says who? It has been said a thousand times: hi-sec is safer not safe. Originally by: RFwills You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. 'Cause you liked that obviously doesn't mean necessarily you should. Originally by: RFwills I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. First it's not an exploit. And second a couple of forum whiners don't represent the majority of EVE. Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. Nothing is too much a word. But I agree protecting a dumb T1 hauler can be tricky. On the other hand - if you want to haul stuff worth billions maybe someone shouldn't use a T1 hauler? Or do you run level 4 missions in a frig since it's cheaper? Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? What? The innocent .... good one . Ok some clarification: Concord is not Police. Concord is a faction independet organization that serves only one purpose: punishing illegal acts of aggression in hi-sec. Their ships are already equipped with a T2 I win button. What more do you want? Originally by: RFwills The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. That is correct. And I admit that there are flaws. Even if a ganker doesn't get anything insurance will cover his loss. And given the current ship build costs he'd actually make profit out of it. The sec hit for ganking is kind of negligible if you ain't doing it full-time. So you are right - for some people a career in the ganking field might seem attractive. But that is just one further reason to be more careful and alert even and especially in hi-sec.
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! that sounds dumb why AFK haul that not playing eve at all ! i hope you get podded a good number of times for not staying in the game .
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:59:00 - [21] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question. If I lost billions in a gank due to own stupidity I'd bite my ass instead of whining on forums TBH. According to your question: Yes I'd definitely play EVE if almost every hi-sec gate had suicide gangs 'cause I'd be in such a gang. And last but not least: you want a healthy debate? Would be easier if you stopped acting like a drama queen.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:00:00 - [22] you have given me motivation to now as well go suicide gank some haulers just for fun
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:03:00 - [23] I like your style, nevertheless I am not acting like a drama queen. If I come off that way I apologize. And yeah you could "be" in such a gang. But how are you going to buy minerals? Get those t2 goodies from Jita? Or go to that infamous hi quality agent youve been wokrin for with a cargo full of t2 missiles? Certainly you will find something unfavorable. If you dont then you must have optimism at lvl 5. Cus I see something wrong here. _______________________________________________ Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that
Rodge Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Knerf with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all. Why would they apply the same result when it was a completely different situation? The PA guy found a way of getting around his -10 sec status. He lost absolutely nothing when he killed people in high sec. He did not get punished at all. The suicide gankers lose sec status and will eventually be banned from high sec. They are getting punished for the crime. Sig inappropriate-not eve related -Abdalion [ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:07:00 - [25] Just a couple points since this has been pretty well picked over. Author how could your friend, a multi year veteran of EVE not know that Jita is the gank capitol of EVE? Why would he not take precautions if he had that kind of ISK in one hull? I've never been that wealthy but I'll tell you I'm a dang sight more careful with the gear I do have. Finally, as many many people have said. There is no "safe" space in EVE. I encourage you to make a new character, and just play through the tutorial real quick. It makes twp points pretty clear. 1, No where is safe 2,Concord is not there to protect, they are there to punish. Those two are covered pretty hard in the new player help section too. -Galan
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:20:00 - [26] I've always giggled at the response to suicide ganking.. "Don't haul stuff in haulers/freighters and it won't happen" Ooook... let's not use the 800k-1mill m3 of space GIVEN to us by CCP so we can avoid this mindless tactic. (yes, mindless, you're not "smart" for thinking it up, Smart people would think.. why commit suicide?) Commiting suicide to blow someone up and take their loot is... just.... childish... See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:22:00 - [27] Frankly, your friend was stupid to haul valuable cargo in Jita in that large quantity. Having said that, I agree with most of what you said. CONCORD and the insurance system are behaving ilogicaly. What I miss in the system is victim protection. I mean you get ganked, you loose all and still the police only kills the attackers in easy to replace ships. 1. Insurance contract invalid if killed by CONCORD. This should be a first step. 2. After you get suicided, CONCORD treats your wreck as confiscated (for 15 minutes or so) and only allows you to pick up the remains. Anybody else trying to take from it (or shoot it) is again killed by CONCORD and 1. applies. Or an alternative to 2. CONCORD takes the cargo to a station and you are notified where you can pick it up again. To all the "safer not safe" folks. There are already crimes going on in empire (ore theft, flag system abuse) so it is not safe. But there should be some consistency in the game (CONCORD behavior). You can be ganked and poded in empire, that's ok. But as stated by many people before me, risk vs. reward is screwed. Try getting 2b isk in any other way so fast and so risk free. I am sure all those clever folks will come up with all kinds of options ... Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:27:00 - [28] Originally by: RFwills I like your style, nevertheless I am not acting like a drama queen. If I come off that way I apologize. And yeah you could "be" in such a gang. But how are you going to buy minerals? Get those t2 goodies from Jita? Or go to that infamous hi quality agent youve been wokrin for with a cargo full of t2 missiles? Certainly you will find something unfavorable. If you dont then you must have optimism at lvl 5. Cus I see something wrong here. ZOMG! There are sooo much griefers in EVE! qualifies for the drama queen oscars. But that's just me. To your questions: short answer - I wouldn't need anything you mentioned. Your hypothesis is kind of pointless anyway. If almost all gates were camped then there would be almost no players left to actually play the game. And no I don't have Optimism on 5. I have Advanced Realism on 4. Works better for me.
RFwills Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Originally by: RFwills I like your style, nevertheless I am not acting like a drama queen. If I come off that way I apologize. And yeah you could "be" in such a gang. But how are you going to buy minerals? Get those t2 goodies from Jita? Or go to that infamous hi quality agent youve been wokrin for with a cargo full of t2 missiles? Certainly you will find something unfavorable. If you dont then you must have optimism at lvl 5. Cus I see something wrong here. ZOMG! There are sooo much griefers in EVE! qualifies for the drama queen oscars. But that's just me. To your questions: short answer - I wouldn't need anything you mentioned. Your hypothesis is kind of pointless anyway. If almost all gates were camped then there would be almost no players left to actually play the game. And no I don't have Optimism on 5. I have Advanced Realism on 4. Works better for me. Oscars? I better get an isk prize as well. Your points have some sense to them, but you must remember: those who live by the sword, die by the sword. _______________________________________________ Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:33:00 - [30] Originally by: RFwills those who live by the sword, die by the sword. And you still refuse being a drama queen?
Hajyt Caldari EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:34:00 - [31] With all these forum posts about the same thing over and over and over...I wouldn't be suprised if more people tried this tactic to make quick money. Just make a mod that blocks cargo scanning. But for freighter pilots...don't go to highly populated systems. Sell your wares a few jumps out, or have a smaller indy take it the rest of the way.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:39:00 - [32] 1) pirates and suicide gankers need to make isk somehow. If they can do it, and profit off it, more power to them. 2) I putt around in high sec all the time hauling my loot. I have never had a problem. I watch people putt around in high sec all the time hauling their loot. I've seen very few problems, and it's always funny when it happens. 3) It's not ridiculous to have to have an escort if you're trucking 2 f-ing billion around. 2 billion isk should be worth your effort. If it's not, you're too rich, lazy, and should be relieved of your wallet. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:49:00 - [33] Originally by: RFwills Im liking the proactive points people have been making to help address the problem. I really appreciate it. Hopefully this gets recognized and thought on by the engineers of this fabulous game. It has been and it better not change its the only thing that makes eve worth playing the fact that if you undock your at risk if you dont like it dont play eve its simple maybe a game like hello kitty world would be more suitable for you and yes if every gate in hi sec had suicide gankers on it i would still play eve.
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! Hehe. Dude, I suggest you try scanning a ship with cans and I think you'll be surprised to see that you scan right through the cans... Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Pehova Mindtriq Endgame.	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:32:00 - [35] One problem is that you can't really avoid it. You can't scout ahead with friends because you don't know who will suicide you at all. When the only solution is to have less valuable cargo hold then it might be time for ccp to look into this. It just feels like the one getting ganked never have any chance to do something about it.
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:38:00 - [36] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that question. and you can whine all you want, hi-sec was never intended to be safe! if you move all your valuable stuff in a ship that thats easy to kill, you deserve to get suicide ganked. simple as that. and i would still play "if almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs", simply for the reason that i'm not so stoupid. its people like you that want me to quit the game! i lost, change it so i can win the next time! nerf whiners! ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!**
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:40:00 - [37] The biggest problem and in fact the very root of the whole highsec gank problem is that there are still nubs who fly about in untanked t1 haulers with billions in their cargo hold. THAT is the real reason this situation exists. ITS THEIR OWN FAULT FOR BEING SO EASY TO KILL WITH AMAZING REWARDS FOR DOING SO. They created a golden opportunity for people willing to do the ganking. Geez if you used an occator or viator and tanked it up right you stand a far far better chance. Or hell if people would simply not put all their eggs in one basket....bloody fools.
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Hajyt Just make a mod that blocks cargo scanning. Brilliant idea really. Ganker #1: "Hhmmm. Can't scan his cargo ..." Ganker #2: "Maybe he put a scanning prohibitor on?" Ganker #1: "Yeah. But why would he do that?" Ganker #2: "Maybe he has something to hide ..." Ganker #1: "Well ...." Both (yelling). "Let's find out!"
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:48:00 - [39] boom
DirtySnipe CALDARI NAVY 'Wolf Pack' 5th Squadron Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:31:00 - [40] I agree with the point made that any ship/asset lose which is the result of concord intervention shoulld not be covered by insurance... Insurance should be void... I also agree scanning should be hostile...
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:37:00 - [41] Originally by: DirtySnipe I agree with the point made that any ship/asset lose which is the result of concord intervention shoulld not be covered by insurance... Insurance should be void... I also agree scanning should be hostile... please come back when you have a decent solution, not a carebear one. NERF WHINERS ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Gutsani Originally by: DirtySnipe I agree with the point made that any ship/asset lose which is the result of concord intervention shoulld not be covered by insurance... Insurance should be void... I also agree scanning should be hostile... please come back when you have a decent solution, not a carebear one. NERF WHINERS And your own decent solution is ? And no, denying the problem is not a solution ... Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
raven415 Caldari Special Projects Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:53:00 - [43] The suicide ganker will always be there. However i do think his death penalty should be greater, ie no insurance paid on ships killed by concord. as for the stuff that drops in a wreck now so its a race to see who can get to it first. The standings from concord need to be looked into also. you can slip into ratting gear and improve your security rateing then go ganking in empire. I feel that 0.0 shouldn't raise the security rateing on a player after all it doesn't lower it
Ty'derian Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:54:00 - [44] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase. Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Sincerely, RFwills its easy, if CCP Developer are to stupid to fix anything its "game mechanic" if CCP Developer can fix it but didnt it yet its exploiting and bugusing
Mephistophilis hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:57:00 - [45] I don't see the problem with high sec ganking tbh It's not an exploit unless they don't loose there ship. I think the system works fine as it is. High sec carbares have it good enough without hitting pvp'ers harder yet again. Instead of leaving the game, why not grow a pair n get revenge! There is 30,000 people online at any given point. get your corp, alliance or group of freinds together and get some payback from the people who did it.... On a side note, i think the one thing eve is missing is accountablility for actions. I'm talking about people in noob corps weather they are alts or main chars. if they do wrong and they can't be attacked for it, you should be able to take it out on his/her corp! Get rid of noob corps for people more than 1 month old and increase the price to set up a corp so you don't have a million 1 man corps.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Gaven Blands on 08/06/2007 09:58:51 Originally by: RFwills (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) The Eve Dictionary defines "Everyone" as noun. Describes a group of people such as yourself and those who agree with you, and ignores the basic premise that others may disagree. Originally by: RFwills Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. In the end it comes home to roost. Originally by: RFwills It took TWO YEARS for somebody in my corp to get suicide ganked, that's how big a problem it is. okee dokee. Originally by: RFwills oh noes! It can't be avoided if we put 2 billion in a poor indy pilot, and they use a skilled ganker, unless we rep him, but why should we have to?! Physician might be able to heal himself at this point I feel. Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. The next time the police show up in less than 20 seconds when you're getting murdered, let me know, so that I can pay you a million dollars which I am prepared to wager that this will never happen. Originally by: RFwills Here's my RL anaology made on the false premise that Eve is RL, and here is a summary that proves Eve is wrong. Ok. Thanks for that, let me file it under B with all the other RL analogies, sure you wouldn't like to compare Eve to Chess and really make a statement? Originally by: RFwills Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. Suicide ganking is hard enough, please don't nerf it further. It's hard enough finding a gate without a gank team already on it, let alone actually pulling off your own. Originally by: RFwills (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Ahahahahaha. My mate quit Eve because of an absolutely obvious bug. The subsequent GM response indicated that clearly GMs have Sweet FA ability to recognise the situations that occur, maybe a failing of logging, maybe they are complete morons, from my own personal dealings with GMs there are some that I wouldn't trust to tie a shoelace, let alone look after a game I'd spent 100(?) manyears and millions of dollars on. 9 days after his account ended he got an email from an SGM, in the same condascending tone as all the usual responses, telling him that he was very very wrong and he should apologise for wasting SGM time. So stupidity goes all the way up the chain. CCP should be fixing bugs that cause people to leave before they set about turning "Bugs & Petitions: Online" into "Knitting & Coffee Morning: Online" thank you very much.
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:09:00 - [47] I was gonna write a nice post but you just annoy me. Idiots who never read the forums, don't even try to understand the game, and do stupid stuff like this deserve to get blown up. From a newbie I could understand it, but if you've been about long enough to earn 2 billion isk then you've been around long enough to learn how to protect it. Your friend needs to take responsibility for his own actions and stop being so greedy and stupid.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:13:00 - [48] Originally by: maarud Hehe. Dude, I suggest you try scanning a ship with cans and I think you'll be surprised to see that you scan right through the cans... Well, not like you, I actually did a test and guess what.... not even the container appears on scan and nothing of what's inside. On top of that, there's another thread about suicide ganking and freighters and even one of the devs confirmed there that at this moment, it's not possible to scan into containers. Bug which will be fixed eventually.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:19:00 - [49] Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. Well, as long as we're making real life comparisons anyway: Meh, in my country what usually happens when a moneytruck (comparable to a hauler carrying 2bil?) is attacked, they waste the truck, take everything that's inside and some time later, when all the attackers are long gone, the police arrives to see what's happened. They didn't waste the attackers and usually don't even have a clue who was involved. Ah, and the best comparison I like is that when I'm driving in my car and my car explodes, I'm dead. I don't have a clone to wake up into... My point: don't compare Eve or any game to real life. It's not the same.
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:42:00 - [50] What is needed is an online patition to express your support to bring about a change so that Hi Sec ganks are made harder. A change such as you dont get a insurance pay out for your ship or some other lose so that the gankers dont have a win win situation. It does need to change and soon.. So anyone that has good skills with website get working on a patition that can be sent to CCP so they know how serious we are
The Economist	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:49:00 - [51] Edited by: The Economist on 08/06/2007 10:50:01 Analogy: let's say you walk up to a person outside a police station, pull out a gun and shoot him in the head. At what point will the police react? Before the crime? No. They lack psychic powers/omniscience/omnipotence/omnipresence. They shoot and/or arrest you when the crime is being/has been committed. Which is also what happens in eve. So what you're really asking for are psychic police. Say no to Minority Report! Say no to Tom Cruise! Say no to Scientology! Say hell no to Xenu!
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Epicurus What is needed is an online patition to express your support to bring about a change so that Hi Sec ganks are made harder. A change such as you dont get a insurance pay out for your ship or some other lose so that the gankers dont have a win win situation. No, this is entirely wrong. The only people who would vote are those that have a vested interest, the uninterested wouldn't vote, even if they have an opinion. Since suicide gankers are outnumbered by probably 10 to 1 by the industrialist fluffy types, any vote the carebear want would be passed, even though the 0.0 community may agree with the gankers, they would not care to vote. Additionally, the fluffies would just keep having the same vote over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they finally got a yes. Just check the number of high sec whine threads for your proof.
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:01:00 - [53] I dont think that they should stop hi sec ganks. Look at it like this.. You wake up one morning and decided your going to make a hit on a security van which has ú500,000,000 sat inside. Now this van is parked up next to 10 coppers sat in thier cars. You drive up in your car, get out and rob the van of ú500,000,000. Now the 10 copper see this crime taking place and all they do is tow your car away so you cannot drive off. Now your mate then comes in his car and you pass him the money and he drives off. You meet up later and split your takings. Now that sound just crazy, but this is whats going on right now in eve, and more and more people are seeing the profit in this. What is needed is a deterrent to make people think twice
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! Check ArtemisEntreri's stats on the CoW KB. Oh yeah, you are being watched. :P --- Adopt a goon today, goons need lub and support too. Do you want him out in the cold, starving ?
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Knerf with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. Because he was doing it to get attention to himself or some roleplay politics and not for ISK rewards. He also announced that he was going specifically after new players. That's why it was classed as griefing and harrasment and he got warned. Vala D.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:07:00 - [56] Can I have his stuff? Originally by: RFwills Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that question. Sounds like earlier this year when we had several wars with Privateers. Didn't faze me much, in fact I welcomed our Privateer war decs as a chance for some Empire pew pew. There are ways to avoid suicide gankers, like not using a tinfoil armoured industrial ship to move billions worth of assets. You don't see banks moving their money around in a Ford Cortina now do you? My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:12:00 - [57] Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. [i]Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. I'm sorry to hear about this, alltough your senario isn't exactly correct. It's more like; Somebody with extremely expensive juwerely walking down random streets at 3am in the night, your bound to get robbed. Also, carry'ing 2bill worth of isk in what whas probably a t1 hauler isn't exactly smart. Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Irongut Can I have his stuff? There are ways to avoid suicide gankers, like not using a tinfoil armoured industrial ship to move billions worth of assets. You don't see banks moving their money around in a Ford Cortina now do you? Its not about what you move your stuff in Irongut If your at war then you know what to expect. Its about the principle of safe space. OK so it should not be 100% safe, but it needs to be safer and I have said this before and will again.. Gankers should not be in a win win situation..
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:16:00 - [59] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! A...thinks nevermind. Might get spanked if i say something. No.. wait... So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Lance Hawke Beyond Divinity Inc Blind Beavers	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:18:00 - [60] hahahahaha
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:21:00 - [61] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 08/06/2007 11:20:04 1) 2 Year Old Player 3) With a Cargohold Chuk-Full of Goodies (2Billion ISK) 4) In an INdustrial Ship - (I am assuming here) 5) Is Moving through Jita. If he was 2 Years old in EVE, that means he was not a noob. Also, almost every noob knows considering how crazy things are, you do not travel through a well populated systems and trade-routs with 2 billion worth of ISK in an Industrial Ship. Also, almost every noob knows, you do not travel in a freighter AFK, through well-populated areas with more than 2 bill (MAX) in your hold. I let people draw their own conclusions. Now, Empire ganks are unfair, they hurt allot, they are terribly costly when it happens. But, you seriously hope that CCP will hold your hand in everything? Thats the beauty of this game! We have a sand box, some people break other people's electronic castles. Perhaps some mechanics need to be adjusted, but for Pete's sake, stop screaming and yelling at the top of your lungs "Exploit" - it is not, and never will be, it is a valid game mechanic that was part of the game since the inception. Empire was never meant to be "safe" - it is MORE SECURE than other places, thats it. I went plenty of times to Jita, got really good mods, and got attacked at the gate. Some sensible ship setups+warp to 0, and you can survive almost anything in a Blockade Runner, or an Assault Ship like Ishkur. Empire ganking is fine. Just some things need to be addressed to make it little less easy than it is now. But an exploit? No way.
Rysio Joint Espionage and Defence Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:27:00 - [62] Just out of curiosity what is eves stand on this type of situation? (dont think ive read anything about it)
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:29:00 - [63] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that question. So to prove yourself right you ASSUME that every system in eve has a gang of suicide gankers? If that's the requirement for your argument to stand, then I'm sorry, you're an idiot. I hope you follow your mate to a less challenging game. òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote:** - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:31:00 - [64] OK, Patch's guide on how to avoid being suicide ganked: 1: Don't go to Jita. Seriously. I know not all ganks happen in Jita, but avoiding a hub like that can do nothing but improve the chances of avoiding instadeath. Only go there if you absolutely have to go, and be bloody careful if you do. 2: If you're going to ferry 2 billion worth of stuff around in Empire, DO NOT do it in something weak enough to be suicide ganked by 2 ships with Ogres! I mean honestly, if you're hauling over a billion isk worth of goods, do it in a ship of appropriate value and toughness. A T2 hauler is infinitely more difficult to suicide bomb than an Iteron III, eliminating most smaller suicide gangs all together. 3: Fit a tank. No, really. Fit a tank on your industrial. Suicide gangs have only a handful of seconds to pop your ship, so they need to bring appropriate force to pop it. Even though an Iteron V with plates isn't exactly going to be winning any duels, if it can last 15 seconds instead of 5, its a success. Again, that little bit extra eliminates the threat of most small gangs all together. 4: Bring a friend. If its really valuable, have someone shadow your hauler with an empty hauler. You get popped? Have them loot the can before the gankers do. If you've followed 2: and 3:, the odds of them having enough fire power left over to gank a second hauler is pretty slim. 5: Don't use AP. If you're carrying billions of isk around, you can afford to make time to sit at your computer for the duration. With WTZ, fully half of all the opportunities for gankers to scan you disappear, seeing as they can only scan you when you're aligning, not when you're slow boating to the gate. Just a few handy tips to avoid the gank. If you do all them and STILL get ganked every day and lose all your stuff, then we'll talk about it having no counter. --------
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:47:00 - [65] Those are some very good suggestions, Patch. Anyways, I think one of the reasons people think they should be safe in high-sec, is because security status is the wrong term. CCP should find another name for it. Because there is no security difference between no-sec, low-sec and high-sec. The only difference is how attackers are dealt with. My point is: Concord is not here to protect. Concord is ONLY here to punish. Vala D.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:52:00 - [66] Disclaimer: I am in NO WAY against suicide ganking. NO WAY. It has a place like everything else in eve. That said, drones not getting shut down by concord is borderline bug. Concord is supposed to shut down the aggressor on arrival, but they do not do that at all effectively as drones remain unaffected and unmolested so that they can kill their victims no matter what concord does. This is unreasonable, drones should be jammed and shot at like the aggressor. Concord-response time is supposed to give you a very-very short window of time to kill someone and the fact that drones multiply this window many times over seems like a bad unintended sideffect.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Patch86 With WTZ, fully half of all the opportunities for gankers to scan you disappear, seeing as they can only scan you when you're aligning, not when you're slow boating to the gate. Not to mention the fact that suiciding occurs in Battleships, and most battleships cannot very well follow an industrial jumping on arrival and hitting warp instantly on jumping(usually slower to align, always slower in warp)
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:56:00 - [68] Don't forget killrights. You can run locator agents on those people and surprise them for a dish served cold. It could be when they're in an expensive mission running ship, for instance.. ---
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:59:00 - [69] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase. Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Sincerely, RFwills If someone stabs you in the middle of London, the Police will not always be there fast enough. You can assume that London = Jita, and the Police = Concord. Its not an exploit, stop whining. Izo Azlion. --- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:12:00 - [70] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question. 4000 systems X 3 gates / system X 5 guys per gate = 60000 gankers. Let's wait for the Cluster to get to sustain 1 mil PPL, out of which, 200k would be online at a given time, and out of all those 200k, a 3rd would be dedicated to gate ganking everywhere. --- Adopt a goon today, goons need lub and support too. Do you want him out in the cold, starving ?
Shakuul Caldari The Imperial Commonwealth The Sundering	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:15:00 - [71] Originally by: Izo Azlion If someone stabs you in the middle of London, the Police will not always be there fast enough. You can assume that London = Jita, and the Police = Concord. If someone stabs you in London, assuming they are caught by police extremely quickly (like in EVE), they don't get to keep the briefcase you were carrying with your laptop, or any other belongings they might have taken. Their friend can't come and pick them up either.
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:17:00 - [72] Originally by: Terminal Entry Originally by: Akita T You CAN'T hide stuff in cans, not even secure ones, and especially not in courier packages. All the contents of all the containers you carry show up in cargoscans. Wrong. Not only do the contents of a can NOT show up on a cargo scan neither dose the can! If you don't believe me, try it out with an alt/friend. This is true for all cans, even General Freight Containers. They might not at the moment but if things dont change when REV 2 comes out then you will be able to see inside Secure Can. Think on this AFK cloakers POS bowling Remote DDD these are some of the things that are being looked into and yeah OK they need rethinking perhaps. Now they are being looked into coz its large corps and alliances that are moaning about them. If it was small corps or solo players then it would not see the light of day. Telling people not to go to jita is not a solution as its not just jita. People are not asking CCP to hold their hands, but a even playing field. No risk all reward. If an alliance had a 10/10 plex with rats that did not shoot back people would be screaming about it.. Gankers have a target that cannot shoot back. Originally by: Sadist Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question. So to prove yourself right you ASSUME that every system in eve has a gang of suicide gankers? If that's the requirement for your argument to stand, then I'm sorry, you're an idiot. I hope you follow your mate to a less challenging game. RFwills did not say EVERY SYSTEM. He said ALMOST.. Keep name calling out of this....Its not big and not clever Ganking does have its place. Like before. Whats needed is a deterrent. People rob bank in RL but what is it that stops most people from walking into their local bank and asking for the contents on its safe.. That is a good few years in the slammer.. I am not suggesting that players find their characters behind bars, but a deterrent is needed
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:17:00 - [73] Edited by: Gaven Blands on 08/06/2007 12:16:55 Originally by: Patch86 1: Don't go to Jita. 2: Use your brain selecting your ship. 3: Fit a tank. 4: Bring a friend. 5: Don't use AP. 6: Carry your cargo in containers or make it a courier mission to yourself, also making it unscannable. 7: Same as 2 These are good points. Anybody who has moderate success in Eve, will approve. Those who are getting suicide ganked for 2 billion only have isk, that is not success, that is failure waiting for the resolution. Point 6 is a complicated one. Consider. The lazy fluffy carebear cried and cried and cried to get Privateers nerfed. Combined with the bad effect Privateers were having on 0.0 hisec pet corps, CCP caved in and nerfed privateers. Where did all the Privateers go? Do you think the vast majority said "I think I will head off to 0.0 now"? There are plenty of hardnosed PvPers who want nothing to do with 0.0 and with good reason, it's not for everybody. I would suggest they are carving a living bleeding carebears for isk by whatever means necessary. Now if "everybody" starts shielding cargo from scanners, what are the suiciders going to do? Stop suiciding? I don't think so. They will have to increase suicide hits because they will just get more people who are returning empty rather than heading out full. The social Darwinism provides stupidity that is sufficient protection for the people who want to follow the other 5 or 6 points you made, because the stupid and lazy will outright refuse to take basic steps to protect themselves. The problem is that stupid and lazy people don't find it very taxing to post on the forums, that is an attack that has to be countered, or CCP in their own near limitless stupidity will just nerf again thinking it will solve a problem. Nerfing Privateers moved a perceived problem. It did not solve it, it did not need solving. Nerfing hisec suiciding even more than it already is, will not solve anything, it will move the problem. And it will move it to asteroid belts, the people in covetors and hulks with the 25 million-a-piece T2 Strip Miners will be the next people crying on the forums. Miners are easier to hit than haulers by a long long way. Still, once that occurs, these lazy slime will have plenty of energy for crying nerf once more.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:27:00 - [74] Originally by: RFwills Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. Ahh noes! More 'real life' comparisons In real life - If i get mugged walking down the road - Policemen do not instantly drop out of the sky in uncombatable forces and nuke my mugger either. There is a 70% chance the criminal will get my wallet and get away scot free. How does this fit into your story SKUNK
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: RFwills Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. Ahh noes! More 'real life' comparisons In real life - If i get mugged walking down the road - Policemen do not instantly drop out of the sky in uncombatable forces and nuke my mugger either. There is a 70% chance the criminal will get my wallet and get away scot free. How does this fit into your story SKUNK Answer this. Why is everyone in RL not robbing banks, people, stealing cars and so on... OK. so he did a bad comparison, but the fact is it needs sorting, balancing or what ever you want to call it
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:38:00 - [76] Why not simply get a ship that can stand up to the punishment long enough for CONCORD to finish them off, or get a ship that can defend itself
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:38:00 - [77] Originally by: Epicurus Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: RFwills Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. Ahh noes! More 'real life' comparisons In real life - If i get mugged walking down the road - Policemen do not instantly drop out of the sky in uncombatable forces and nuke my mugger either. There is a 70% chance the criminal will get my wallet and get away scot free. How does this fit into your story SKUNK Answer this. Why is everyone in RL not robbing banks, people, stealing cars and so on... OK. so he did a bad comparison, but the fact is it needs sorting, balancing or what ever you want to call it People who quote 'real life' over and over again need a kick in the sacks OMFG - IN MARIO I JUMPED THOROUGH A PAINTING AND A GIANT BULLET ATE ME! THIS JUST WOULDNT HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE I WOULD BOUNCE OFF THE PAINTING - AND GRAVITY WOULD PULL THE GIANT BULLET TO THE GROUND BEFORE IT ATE ME People who start ANOTHER new thread about something their are already 15 threads hovering around need a kick in the shins. People who try to threaten CCP with dire warnings about the noob revenue stream deserve a kick to the elbow. SKUNK
Malena Panic Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:53:00 - [78] Originally by: RFwills Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that question. The problem with high-sec ganking isn't that it happens, but that it doesn't happen enough. Right now it's a very sensible risk to tote around a billion isk worth of gear in a T1 hauler, 'cause chances are you'll never get spotted let alone ganked. However, if say even 10% of all large volume, high value cargoes were regularly getting scooped, more people would adopt sensible precautions. Like say taking more trips to the market. Or even better, breaking their cargoes down into lots and using the existing courier system to give other folks a piece of their business. You lose net profit but gain peace of mind. But instead, people are greedy. And sometimes you gotta pay the price for greed.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Le Skunk need a kick in the sacks need a kick in the shins. kick to the elbow. SKUNK For some reason this reminded me of being kid playing "Operation".... I'd look for a downloadable version, but such things are always better as fond memories, as the re-visit nearly always disappoints. Deuteros on the Amiga, and Mega-Lo-Mania are two exceptions I can think of. But Paperboy... IK+... Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge... I so wish I hadn't taken a second look.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:05:00 - [80] blah blah blah... ya know, as I type this, I am AFK hauling all of my most valuable possession (to me at least ).... I dare a gank squad come and try to kill me.. why you may ask? because my battleship is tanked out like a mother ****. thats why. I will live long enough for concord to come and protect me well.. unless.. of course... they can do a bit over 4300 DPS. (that includes shields / armor / hull.. yes.. i use hull plates as well. anyways, how about this: Make it so scanning a ship, brings up a "hostile" flag, kind of like flipping a can. You scan someone, their corp mates can kill you. My opinion is my own, not of my corp or my alliance. If you have problems, we can have a "who can do L4 missions faster" duel >:)
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:19:00 - [81] Edited by: Gutsani on 08/06/2007 13:21:41 Originally by: Epicurus Answer this. Why is everyone in RL not robbing banks, people, stealing cars and so on... OK. so he did a bad comparison, but the fact is it needs sorting, balancing or what ever you want to call it the penalty in real life is way higher, yes. but so is the reward and the chance of walking away freely. sounds well balanced to me. what you wanne do? ban people's account for suicide ganking him? "thrown in jail for 30 year" o plz you know what, since you idiots wont stop whining anyway let me give you the real solution. NERF THE CARGOHOLD OF FREIGHTERS AND HAULERS DOWN BIGTIME! tadaah, problem solved! bye bye suicide ganking. not profitable any more. we pay a price, so do you. balance still remains. NERF WHINERS ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:26:00 - [82] I did not read all the replys, nor the full OP. However I just have to comment on one thing stated in that OP... "Concord is here to protect the innocent".... WRONG.. Concord is here to punish the guilty. As long as they aggressors get their punishment, Concord is happy and has done their job as they see it. -=^=-
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:29:00 - [83] Originally by: Le Skunk need a kick in the sacks need a kick in the shins. kick to the elbow. SKUNK Now he feels that he has to threaten people with violence. Like to see you try.. Originally by: Gutsani Edited by: Gutsani on 08/06/2007 13:21:41 what you wanne do? ban people's account for suicide ganking him? "thrown in jail for 30 year" o plz If you can be bother to keep track of whats been said then you will see what I was suggesting. If you cannot be bothered then here is what I said in an earlier post Originally by: Epicurus Ganking does have its place. Like before. Whats needed is a deterrent. People rob bank in RL but what is it that stops most people from walking into their local bank and asking for the contents on its safe.. That is a good few years in the slammer.. I am not suggesting that players find their characters behind bars, but a deterrent is needed This really should be about an active solution on dealing with the problem and not silly name calling, threats of violence to other and half thought out ideas
Brinn Shackleton	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:41:00 - [84] Originally by: Akita T You CAN'T hide stuff in cans, not even secure ones, and especially not in courier packages. All the contents of all the containers you carry show up in cargoscans. I tested this, and unless its been "fixed" recenlty the only containers that cannot be scanned are Freight containers. If the OP's friend was flying a freighter and had used freight containers his attackers would have had to weigh up the risk vs reward thingy.... exactly how it should be imho.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:50:00 - [85] Edited by: Le Skunk on 08/06/2007 13:49:27 Originally by: Epicurus Originally by: Le Skunk need a kick in the sacks need a kick in the shins. kick to the elbow. SKUNK Now he feels that he has to threaten people with violence. Like to see you try.. Dont be silly. SKUNK PS in the time taken for this thread to grow ANOTHER high-sec ganking thread has popped up.
Prekaz	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:28:00 - [86] I bet being not-worth-killing works FABULOUSLY as a deterrent.
Sorted EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:42:00 - [87] Originally by: RFwills Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, SHOT TO DEATH in a DRIVE BY. The cops come to and arrest the offenders. But SOME OTHER GUY - robbed his wallet b4 they showed up. The gang try to make their escape and the cops shoot their car up. Insurance pays for the car as they are fully comp. The criminals get executed. BING - sec loss and new clone (as its eve) Even if the isuance didnt pay it would still happen. Would just mean you can haul a little more without worry. (not much - about 100M total I would think) In real life the lustice system doesnt work perfectly. A drunken druggie kicked my friends glass shop door one saturday afternoon - breaking it. Insurance had a ú500 excess. The replacement cost ú230 which he paid. He detained the offeneder until the cops arrived. he went to court, didnt go to prison, was orded to pay costs and damages - the offender was on state benifits and has to pay50p/fourtnight. My friend was aleady working like a dog to keep his head above water and shelling out extra cash realy stung him. On top of all that the offeneder had chance to press changers agasint the shop owner for "holding" him while waiting for the cops. Eve is harsh, so is life. After 2 years playing your mate should of had a clue.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.08 15:06:00 - [88] I was so upset last night, me and my buds were going to wait for a suicide ganker to get criminally flagged attacking a hauler so we could gank them.....so that we could take their great suicide gank spot for our own!!! :) Unfortunately I had to go grab dinner with my girlfriend so we couldn't do it :( Yeah, anyways, suicide ganking is awesome. Nerfing Privateers made traveling boring and now suicide gankers are making things fun again. Thank God for the suicide gankers.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:02:00 - [89] Originally by: Jinx Barker Edited by: Jinx Barker on 08/06/2007 11:20:04 Thats the beauty of this game! We have a sand box, some people break other people's electronic castles. O.o yer SURE this is the right way too look at it, i seriusly don't hope you ever get any children with this kind of low life attitude..... .... sigh... well i am all on for the strongest gets his write and by the way your saying this, your WAY down the food chain... profanity ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:03:00 - [90] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone)
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:11:00 - [91] Originally by: Neuromandis Originally by: Patch86 With WTZ, fully half of all the opportunities for gankers to scan you disappear, seeing as they can only scan you when you're aligning, not when you're slow boating to the gate. Not to mention the fact that suiciding occurs in Battleships, and most battleships cannot very well follow an industrial jumping on arrival and hitting warp instantly on jumping(usually slower to align, always slower in warp) Fly a blockade runner instead. Fit with rigs to reduce mass, and an i-stab, and you warp off faster than most people can notice. I also fit a cloak. Jump through a gate, start moving, hit the cloak, then leisurely orient to warp, uncloak, and hit the warp button. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:37:00 - [92] This is clearly an exploit!!!! You have to fit modules to defend your ship in order to prevent being killed. Plus you can't reach your destination safely unless you are monitoring your progress. All sarcasm aside, quite a few people offered a huge variety of ways to avoid being suicide ganked. My hats off to them. Unfortunately, the vast majority of haulers are not going to pay any attention to those ideas and instead will continue to fly like lemmings to their deaths.
Hank Cousteau	Posted - 2007.06.08 18:44:00 - [93] Edited by: Hank Cousteau on 08/06/2007 18:43:22 It would be good to invalidate insurance from gankers... but also concorded wrecks become property of the victim. Bam, instant restitution. Few more things: 1. There is a problem with drone suicide ganking as far as reaction times 2. Use the Exquorer or a large cargo hulled cruiser if you can .. you probably wont even get scanned 3. Medium shield extenders never impact your hauling capacity, neither do hardeners (passive if you're afking) 4. Put a damn password on your cans, so at least the gankers need to bring an indy themselves to get your surviving **** 5. Make multiple trips carrying less to reduced your risk and make yourself a less juicy target. Figure if you're carrying more than 200m (Cost of two fitted Domis after default payout, and It's a 50% chance of cargo is destroyed)... you're statistically profitable.
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 19:57:00 - [94] Originally by: Buyerr agreed it is an exploit as many other exploit that are beeing allowed and done nothing about "like pos bowling". Guess you dont read the news then. POS bowling is an exploit http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1470&tid=1
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:05:00 - [95] It's not "suicide ganking." No one dies. Even the toon just comes back out of a vat. It's a straight economic transaction. And a bad one for the game, in my opinion, because it's incredibly lopsided. Someone just decides to trade a certain number of ships for a variable amount of loot from the other guy's wreck. In other words the victim's loss is pretty much guaranteed to pay the ganker's automatic profit. Pretty hard to find much in the way of risk.... Right now this is way out of whack and is hurting the game. Although there are some self-obsessed folk who can't really see that yet. Paying insurance to the muggers in these event is right up there with "Ketchup is a vegetable." Regards from the farside, Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Catarina Caldone	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:18:00 - [96] Originally by: Gort It's a straight economic transaction. And a bad one for the game, in my opinion, because it's incredibly lopsided. QFT. I know this isn't RL, but some things should follow the rules of sensibility. If you repeatedly smash your car into a tree in front of a hundred witnesses, I seriously doubt you'll be seeing a check from the insurance company for it. Hell, I doubt you'd even see one of those nicely written cancellation notices, much less a check for each and every time you do it. No, a game shouldn't follow the rules of RL in every aspect of the phrase, but it should at least make some feeble attempt at utilising the rules of common sensibility. Its like paying the stupid for repeatedly doing stupid things. It simply doesn't make any sense.
Tintifish Roid Terminators	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:26:00 - [97] There's a very good reason i never move in high sec with anything worth over 10m without it being in a can so they cant scan it ;-)
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:27:00 - [98] Originally by: Catarina Caldone Originally by: Gort It's a straight economic transaction. And a bad one for the game, in my opinion, because it's incredibly lopsided. QFT. I know this isn't RL, but some things should follow the rules of sensibility. If you repeatedly smash your car into a tree in front of a hundred witnesses, I seriously doubt you'll be seeing a check from the insurance company for it. Hell, I doubt you'd even see one of those nicely written cancellation notices, much less a check for each and every time you do it. STOP WITH THE REAL LIFE COMPARISONS!!!!!!! In real life if you continualy drove into a war zone with no police protection (0.0 space) and got your car shot up - you wouldnt recieve insurance payouts either. Lets have no insurance for anyone in 0.0 In real life you would pay more insurance if you lived in a bad ass area (low sec). Lets have MASSIVE insurance costs for people who go into low sec Oh and no payouts if you die thorugh dire negligence And no payouts for self destruction I could go on SKUNK
Catarina Caldone	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:37:00 - [99] Originally by: Le Skunk STOP WITH THE REAL LIFE COMPARISONS!!!!!!! Hence, the reason I said real life should NOT be the benchmark. Common sensibility should. Attacking another player in hi-sec should not be a payday. At least not where insurance is concerned. Theres really not much "risk vs. reward" if you get back most everything you lost through willful acts of destruction. Suicide, get paid, scoop up the loot, rinse, repeat. What exactly, is sensible about that?
Buttercup Sedai Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:50:00 - [100] Edited by: Buttercup Sedai on 08/06/2007 20:50:37 Originally by: Le Skunk STOP WITH THE REAL LIFE COMPARISONS!!!!!!! Hey man, internet spaceships are serious business
Isyel Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:55:00 - [101] Poor bastard OP fails to see CONCORD is not like the police in any reasonable way. Read teh fluff! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by: Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
Catarina Caldone	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:09:00 - [102] Originally by: Isyel Poor bastard OP fails to see CONCORD is not like the police in any reasonable way. Read teh fluff! Again, QFT. CONCORD action shouldn't be changed in any way. But the insurance mechanics should. If you willfully sacrifice your ship in ANY manner, you shouldn't get any insurance payment for it.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:12:00 - [103] It's not the Suicide Ganking that should be called a bug/exploit, but the use of Drones to do it... Concords current limited blindness when it comes to drones and has been fixed on Sisi needs to be classified a bug and it's use an exploit... Feel free to suicide gank all you want, but do it without drones. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
genome 77 Gallente Los Gordos	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:13:00 - [104] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! ohhhhhhhhh, you AFK haul with a hold full of officer loot, time to fire up some locator agents and make some iskies! -------------------------------------------------- Killing you was a simple matter of economics. Your gear was worth more than the ammunition used to attain it, thus profit is born.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:36:00 - [105] Edited by: Rabbitual Ferrier on 08/06/2007 21:40:01 Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase. Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Sincerely, RFwills Rab Ferriers Top Tips When moving very expensive objects why not try Secure Cargo containers for all your stop the gank profit needs? 2 billion is a LOT of money, would you walk round flashing that much cash without hiring bodyguards. T2 Ogres, the gank drone of choice. Consider thermal tanking as a investment against robbery. 2 Billion isk? Probably worth spending more than a couple of hundred thou on the transporting vessel.
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:48:00 - [106] Originally by: Shakuul Originally by: Izo Azlion If someone stabs you in the middle of London, the Police will not always be there fast enough. You can assume that London = Jita, and the Police = Concord. If someone stabs you in London, assuming they are caught by police extremely quickly (like in EVE), they don't get to keep the briefcase you were carrying with your laptop, or any other belongings they might have taken. Their friend can't come and pick them up either. I wasnt talking about that. I'm tired of people thinking their safe in high sec. Its high security, not immunity. Izo Azlion. --- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig.
Titus Blackthorn Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:20:00 - [107] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Originally by: RFwills He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. Quitting EVE over loss is naturally sad. However - a 2 year old player hauling 2 billion worth of goods in Jita space that seems to be full of gankers lately ... errr ... come on. Originally by: RFwills The whole point of Hi sec is safety. Says who? It has been said a thousand times: hi-sec is safer not safe. Originally by: RFwills I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. First it's not an exploit. And second a couple of forum whiners don't represent the majority of EVE. Nothing is too much a word. But I agree protecting a dumb T1 hauler can be tricky. On the other hand - if you want to haul stuff worth billions maybe someone shouldn't use a T1 hauler? Or do you run level 4 missions in a frig since it's cheaper? Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? What? The innocent .... good one . Ok some clarification: Concord is not Police. Concord is a faction independet organization that serves only one purpose: punishing illegal acts of aggression in hi-sec. Their ships are already equipped with a T2 I win button. What more do you want? Originally by: RFwills The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. That is correct. And I admit that there are flaws. Even if a ganker doesn't get anything insurance will cover his loss. And given the current ship build costs he'd actually make profit out of it. The sec hit for ganking is kind of negligible if you ain't doing it full-time. So you are right - for some people a career in the ganking field might seem attractive. But that is just one further reason to be more careful and alert even and especially in hi-sec. Thread-o-mancy??? Just wanted to pipe in here a tad. 2 year old player yes spending much of that time away from HIsec, going to the one place that is nearly universally agreed as the hot spot to buy/sell stuff. Just saying he had no clue Jita was now a gank zone... then/now. The nature of way things went down, I would certainly call it an exploit, but since it not lets share the details.... Person A attacks person B to bring in concord as person B attack person C. Concord swoops in insta kills A and then sits there and sits there and umm sits there. Its about this time the gang of gankers start there attacks on would be innocent folks. Why? Simply put Concord attacks person B next and then sits there and sits there and umm sits there. That is a known bug and the gankers are exploiting it. If you haven't guessed by now Player A, B, and C, are part of the gank tactic and are in crap ships. Their role is to lag up (for better terms) Concord, freeing the rest to gank. Litterally preventing Concord from doing what they are supposed to do. As I understand it the person who played for 2 years was in a Freighter not some tech 1 indy. You can't slap in any fittings on that puppy. Warping to zero might have saved him... but that's really diverts from the fact they (the gankers) were using an exploit..period. And that is the issue presented. Forget he was upset at the loss, which btw I know the guy and in fact introduced him to this game and can say he losses ship about as much as the next person and rolls with it because its all part of the game. Its the issue of the exploit that needs to be fixed.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:23:00 - [108] Hmm, a month. A maybe-IBTL? - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Titus Blackthorn Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Crumplecorn Hmm, a month. A maybe-IBTL? My bad lol ooh added notes... I am all for suicide ganks and what not. GOoooo pirates!!! I just think the point of the issue was missed and or left out of how it went down. This wasn't a case where a ganker went in and alpha striked an indy and got blown up and his buddy grabbed the loot scenario and indy pilot was some afk carebear...if it was I would be like the rest of you sharks in the water smelling blood ;) It was imho an exploit see the read on Players A, B, and C above. kthnx
Mordrake ComNav Resources SunStorm Dominion	Posted - 2007.07.18 21:48:00 - [110] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this * happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem. Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve?** Theres only one real answer to that question. Its not a problem its a life lesson in EVE... happened to my hauling alt with an Iteron V full of Ferrogel. Solution = Train TII haulers... more tank means less chance of empire Gank ; ] "Arte et Marte"
HelloDevette	Posted - 2007.07.18 22:00:00 - [111] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Police forces do act a lot like concord. If someone was determined to attack another person, would you expect the police to stop it before it ever happened ala minority report or for them to RESPOND to an attack? It's a game. Ship destruction is part of the game. Anyone that is upset with ship destruction or losing virtual "property" is not cut out for eve. Also, never fly with/carry more than you can afford to lose. Would you walk around town with your life savings in your pocket?
Wigglytuff Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:07:00 - [112] Highsec is safer, nothing more. Belt piracy isnt what it used to be.
Ninja Otaku	Posted - 2007.07.18 23:39:00 - [113] To anyone ever suicide ganked, EVER. "Welcome to Eve-Online"
Kalibas	Posted - 2007.07.19 18:40:00 - [114] I find it interesting how game mechanics like these are fully endorsed by CCP yet macro mining is not... I understand that CCP makes a stance saying that the higher security threat zones aren't supposed to be safe, just safer, but from what I've been reading and figuring out about the game (still just a newb) I highly doubt CCP actually calculated for this game mechanic. It just seems like an extreme bending of the rules that makes no actual sense. I have yet to have this happen to me, but since I hear all this talk about it I always warp to zero and basically spend as little time as possible floating around (even though I have nothing of value except my ship). I certainly hope the standard suggestions that everyone is mentioning (no insurance payout, confiscated wreckage) are implemented, as it makes much more sense. If the CONCORD Police were all just robots, then I would understand the current game mechanics, but as I understand it they're not.
gfldex Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.19 18:49:00 - [115] Originally by: RFwills You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. Why? And I really want to know why you believe that would be a good idea. There are so many ppl that seam to have a problem with that. With the knowledge why they believe they should be save there could be done something. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.07.19 18:51:00 - [116] Someone should have read the Tips and Advice section of the EVE Player Guide held 7 links down on the left hand navigation... it clearly states as I paraphrase: DO NOT RELY ON CONCORD TO KEEP YOU SAFE. AS WITH THE REAL POLICE, THEY OFTEN ARRIVE TOO LATE AFTER THE CRIME HAS OCCURRED AND WILL DISPENSE JUSTICE, NOT PROTECTION. Yes... believe it or not, murders ACTUALLY happen in both real life and in EVE! The police can't actually know ahead of time what someone is planning (Minority Report... gross). So when you quit along with your friend.... Can I have your stuff? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun	Posted - 2007.07.19 19:14:00 - [117] Quote: Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. EXACTLY! That is what is so cool about this game! The station is the only safe place in EVE. Everything is fair game. That is what makes it FUN! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:50:00 - [118] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 20:53:26 Op, you are just wrong. High sec just means that concord will catch the criminal, not protect you. If people quit Eve because their ship gets blown up, maybe they are looking for a game where people cant blow you up. Nothing wrong with that. Eve is the way it is because the designers wanted a harsh, cold, unforgiving universe. Its not for everybody. It simply isnt. We who play Eve likes this about the game. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:52:00 - [119] Originally by: RFwills The whole point of Hi sec is safety. no its simply, safER. this isnt a secret its pretty well known.
Yanjul Slagenhoffen NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:58:00 - [120] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 20:53:26 Op, you are just wrong. High sec just means that concord will catch the criminal, not protect you. If people quit Eve because their ship gets blown up, maybe they are looking for a game where people cant blow you up. Nothing wrong with that. Eve is the way it is because the designers wanted a harsh, cold, unforgiving universe. Its not for everybody. It simply isnt. We who play Eve likes this about the game. But you must agree the insurance acts wrong; In a case where your in high sec and you shoot someone and die to concord, its your own doing and you know its your own doing, you shouldnt AT ALL get the insurance back. Also another point would be sec status, you've been seen by CONCORD (the police) with the will and guts to engage a ship right in front of them. So why only the mild sec hit, these people should go straight to outlaw!
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.19 20:59:00 - [121] Originally by: Sharupak Quote: Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. EXACTLY! That is what is so cool about this game! The station is the only safe place in EVE. Everything is fair game. That is what makes it FUN! When we walk in stations even they will become unsafe....
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.07.19 21:06:00 - [122] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 21:08:28 Originally by: Yanjul Slagenhoffen But you must agree the insurance acts wrong; In a case where your in high sec and you shoot someone and die to concord, its your own doing and you know its your own doing, you shouldnt AT ALL get the insurance back. Also another point would be sec status, you've been seen by CONCORD (the police) with the will and guts to engage a ship right in front of them. So why only the mild sec hit, these people should go straight to outlaw! Well yes, but the game needs insurance. I remember back when I was new and tried my guns at some random ship outside the station and got concordokken. Thats how I learned. I didnt read any guides, I just wanted to try the game and learn for myself. Without insurance, people could be set back to square 1 with a tritanium in their pocket because they didnt know about the things you and me take for granted now. In other mmorpg's, if you try to shoot the guards or other people in the newbie zones, you get messages with "you cant do that". Eve allows you to do that, but has consequences. And because of that, it must be a bit forgiving towards newbies as well. People are abusing the insurance, sure, but we cant let them take the insurance away from the real newbies. I believe they need it. Eve should be unforgiving, but it must allow people to learn the ropes. Thats why I feel we need insurance, even though its not realistic it should work that way. But its also not realistic that the cops catch 100% of criminals in high sec either. Eve has a decent compromise. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Pukeko B.O.O.M	Posted - 2007.07.19 21:18:00 - [123] It may be worth considering shipping your stuff via haulage contracts. The advantage of having your gear broken up into smaller transportable lots on numerous different ships would surely outweigh the extra time and expense this setup requires.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.19 21:21:00 - [124] I agree this is an exploit, even though your friend should have known better. Reason Being: Its only possible to do this because Concord doesnt target drones. So if this was attempted in any other ship, its impossible. But since its a drone boat...who cares if concord jams you, while Concord is Jamming and killing you, your drones are still killing the hauler. When one type of ship has a means to circumvent Concord, thats called an exploit.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.07.19 21:25:00 - [125] Do you get concorded for scanning cargo?
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.07.19 21:30:00 - [126] Originally by: Vrizuh Do you get concorded for scanning cargo? Nope. You can scan out your targets risk free before you engage. This one of two key uses for a passive targetter: locking onto your target without him knowing so that you can scan him to see if he is worth sucide ganking. In most other situtations it really doesn't matter if you target knows that you have a lock on him. The other use for Passive Targetters is of course mineral compression.
Marilda Amarr Big Brother Holding Company	Posted - 2007.07.19 22:49:00 - [127] It might be a good idea to make high sec into safe sec, because in the long run it would solve the population problem. Say for instance that players with a sec status of -1.0 or with a bounty, couldn't enter Empire space (at all), without CONCORD intervening, it would mean that they would have to trade in low sec, thus increasing the ammount of goods traded there. Since it is my impression that, at present, most pirates go into Empire space to sell their loot. Carebears would then be free to drive down the prices due to over-supply, and it would make low sec the place to make profits.... thus leading to people moving out of high sec. Making Empire space more secure might also help to attract more women to play Eve - something CCP claims it wants. Oh, one other thing... just as people shouldn't use RL to make points. It is equally lame to use Darwinism as an argument. If you mean 'nature red in tooth and claw' then you are refering to Neo-Darwinism. An entirely different theory, which largely neglects that those species who live a peaceful, co-operative existance tend to be the most successful. btw suicide ganking is clearly an exploit, if it wasn't then CCP wouldn't have programmed CONCORD to intervene ------ Yes but does it make money?
necronarcosis Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.19 23:02:00 - [128] i dont agree with removing suicide ganking in highsec at all, however the punishment should fit the crime, a straight -5 for players that suicide gank in highsec and 0 payout for there lost ship.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.07.20 00:01:00 - [129] Read part of the first post, skipped the rest of the thread. All I want to add is this: Your friend got to 2bn in assets but still didn't know about suicide ganking???
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.20 00:07:00 - [130] Edited by: cal nereus on 20/07/2007 00:07:44 Life isn't fair. Eve isn't fair. CCP didn't make this game so that it would be the most popular or have the most customers. They made it with a specific design philosophy in mind, appealing to a devoted niche of players that are more than willing to pay money for multiple accounts (often because they have the freedom to help or hurt other players whether those players want it or not). This game isn't supposed to appeal to everyone, and your friend is just one of those people who won't enjoy the game and probably should play something else. On the other hand, a higher punishment for suicide-ganking sounds like a reasonable change. People should still be free to completely ruin other people's stuff, but at a higher price to themselves.
Jake Devlin Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.07.20 00:42:00 - [131] "the main purposes of CONCORD was to ease the fragile tension and create a foundation for the empires to work their differences out in a peaceful manner. In this regard, the workings of CONCORD can be said to have been successful, since the empires have kept the peace over the last century. On numerous occasions relationships deteriorated to within an inch of all out war, but through the efforts of CONCORD a compromise solution has always been found." The purpose of concord is not to protect anyone, but to prevent war between the four major factions... read the prime fiction people. concord is not and will never be the police. they are not here to keep you safe. they are here to prevent war and nothing else. ]
Gibbal Slogspit Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.07.21 11:47:00 - [132] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 21:08:28 Originally by: Yanjul Slagenhoffen But you must agree the insurance acts wrong; In a case where your in high sec and you shoot someone and die to concord, its your own doing and you know its your own doing, you shouldnt AT ALL get the insurance back. Also another point would be sec status, you've been seen by CONCORD (the police) with the will and guts to engage a ship right in front of them. So why only the mild sec hit, these people should go straight to outlaw! Well yes, but the game needs insurance. I remember back when I was new and tried my guns at some random ship outside the station and got concordokken. Thats how I learned. I didnt read any guides, I just wanted to try the game and learn for myself. Without insurance, people could be set back to square 1 with a tritanium in their pocket because they didnt know about the things you and me take for granted now. In other mmorpg's, if you try to shoot the guards or other people in the newbie zones, you get messages with "you cant do that". Eve allows you to do that, but has consequences. And because of that, it must be a bit forgiving towards newbies as well. People are abusing the insurance, sure, but we cant let them take the insurance away from the real newbies. I believe they need it. Eve should be unforgiving, but it must allow people to learn the ropes. Thats why I feel we need insurance, even though its not realistic it should work that way. But its also not realistic that the cops catch 100% of criminals in high sec either. Eve has a decent compromise. The 'Criminals' in EvE, seem to get a lot more forgiveness than the people that are trading, that are running missions that are mining. Maybe that aspect of the game isnt balanced.
DukeJoost1 The Last Solution Inc	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:00:00 - [133] Originally by: Hugh Ruka .... CONCORD and the insurance system are behaving ilogicaly. What I miss in the system is victim protection. I mean you get ganked, you loose all and still the police only kills the attackers in easy to replace ships. 1. Insurance contract invalid if killed by CONCORD. This should be a first step. 2. After you get suicided, CONCORD treats your wreck as confiscated (for 15 minutes or so) and only allows you to pick up the remains. Anybody else trying to take from it (or shoot it) is again killed by CONCORD and 1. applies. Or an alternative to 2. CONCORD takes the cargo to a station and you are notified where you can pick it up again. ... /signed
Quetzalcoatle Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:14:00 - [134] Originally by: DukeJoost1 Originally by: Hugh Ruka .... CONCORD and the insurance system are behaving ilogicaly. What I miss in the system is victim protection. I mean you get ganked, you loose all and still the police only kills the attackers in easy to replace ships. 1. Insurance contract invalid if killed by CONCORD. This should be a first step. 2. After you get suicided, CONCORD treats your wreck as confiscated (for 15 minutes or so) and only allows you to pick up the remains. Anybody else trying to take from it (or shoot it) is again killed by CONCORD and 1. applies. Or an alternative to 2. CONCORD takes the cargo to a station and you are notified where you can pick it up again. ... /signed I can only really agree with #1. But imo #2 wouldn't be punishment enough for the idiots that haul/put to many of their eggs in one T1 basket.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:26:00 - [135] Are freighters still getting suicideganked, pre-Concordbuff?
Human Cattle	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:32:00 - [136] Originally by: Jake Devlin "the main purposes of CONCORD was to ease the fragile tension and create a foundation for the empires to work their differences out in a peaceful manner. In this regard, the workings of CONCORD can be said to have been successful, since the empires have kept the peace over the last century. On numerous occasions relationships deteriorated to within an inch of all out war, but through the efforts of CONCORD a compromise solution has always been found." The purpose of concord is not to protect anyone, but to prevent war between the four major factions... read the prime fiction people. concord is not and will never be the police. they are not here to keep you safe. they are here to prevent war and nothing else. also going by the fiction Caldari >>> Other Races. Not to mention blowing up ships with one missile...
Gutsani D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:35:00 - [137] my signature says it all ..
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:53:00 - [138] Oh noes! Its Fina! Also, this is a whine thread posted by a pansy on behalf of a pansy who got pwned. Nothing to see here. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.07.21 12:54:00 - [139] Originally by: Frug Oh noes! Its Fina!
Daelise Seryu	Posted - 2007.07.21 13:36:00 - [140] A lot of good points. Though as far as punishment goes, Concord has some easy limitations. It's easy enough for even a suicide attacker to occassionally go ratting and keep themself at 0.1 security status, so there's not much of a problem staying in high security space. Their response time is near instant in some things and about half a minute (if at all) in some other cases. A person sometimes even has the opportunity to blow up a ship, dock for fifteen minutes, come back and do it again and Concord's pretty much going to just look the other way. Kill rights, while sometimes nice, really doesn't impress the whole idea that there's any kind of protection, just legalized vengeance. Flagging someone as a universal criminal (15 minutes free for all) for commiting the crime of shooting someone down would do more to discourage empire criminal activity. With as many occurences as there are of people shooting up rookie ships for giggles, I'd think that Concord, or at least the faction in control would be ready to blow anyone away in 1.0 at a blink. I've never actually seen someone shoot down someone else with drones in empire space, but if Concord's actually shooting at the drones, they're clearly missing the concept of drones. Why not just have defender missiles going at all times to punish errant missiles that may be fired... But overall, the many people who've said it are right on the money. Undocking at all is taking a risk, no matter where it's at. A ship's not just a cargo bay, it's the insurance policy on the cargo, use it intelligently. Even horrible failiure or circumstance is a learning experience, never assume that something won't go wrong, assume it will and multiple times. Cargo scanning really isn't that big of a deal, after all, just looking at a ship by right clicking on it is effectively the same as asking what would it be worth in salvage or what could it potentially be equipped with that'll survive detonation. Plus, cargo scanning sometimes helps keep people alive. They know which ones aren't worth shooting down, so those people don't get shot pointlessly. Piracy is a valid and often lucrative trade, the game was designed that way. And most importantly of all: exploitation of people's expectations is not something that game designers are going to combat, only exploitation of game/system unintended features. Piracy is intended in this game and unless it somehow involves another means of exploitation, like taking advantage of a bug in the system, it's just piracy.
Ecatherina W Gallente Core Domination Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2007.07.21 13:49:00 - [141] 1) Don't fly things out of Jita in a T1 industrial. 2) Don't fly anything out of Jita in primetime or weekends. Not valuable stuff anyway. How to get t2 gear out of Jita 1) Buy an Exequror or similar ship 2) Add passive shieldtanks + warp core stabs 3) Use an undocking safe if possible. 4) Use a courier contract to keep the contents of your cargohold a secret 5) Place your shopping in secure cans If you can, use a light frig or an intercepter to carry out the most expensive items. This is not fool-proof. Fools are so darn clever. But it helps. Kath *** Ecatherina W *** Empress of the Multiverse DGAF Newbie Guide to Everything Eve
Toda Toranaga Gallente Golden Apples of the Sun Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.07.21 13:54:00 - [142] I am a hulk pilot, and would suffer a serious blow if someone suicided me. I agree that this suicide ganking issue is a little ovebalanced. I for one, actually have no problem with the pirates of eve. In a REAL universe, there would BE pirates. So they add a factor of realism and challenge to the game, which I think makes it more enjoyable (not that I enjoy losing ships, of course). But losing 2 billion isk of assets to a suicide ganker with a cheap ship, who only loses a couple of milion isk IF concord attacks him (recent rumors i have heard suggest that concord is bugged....again), makes this a completely over balanced situation, and makes it almost pointless to play for newer characters, as well as most industrialists. I for one, have a pvp alt who flies battleships, and when I am mining, he is in the gang, providing security at the belt. And this is in a 0.7 System. I think I may have to delay my plans to set up a base in low (0.4) sec any time soon. ________________________________________________ On average, every day, 1,236 innoncent jet cans pop after being left out too long by careless noob miners. Lets put a stop to the negligence!
Maulrex X	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:09:00 - [143] Originally by: RFwills It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. Please, if you have 2 billion isk worth of goods you don't move it around in a poorly armored indy. For christ sake!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS WHY T2 HAULERS ARE IN THE GAME. Why are people so stupid.
Toda Toranaga Gallente Golden Apples of the Sun Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:12:00 - [144] Originally by: Maulrex X Originally by: RFwills It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. Please, if you have 2 billion isk worth of goods you don't move it around in a poorly armored indy. For christ sake!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS WHY T2 HAULERS ARE IN THE GAME. Why are people so stupid. gotta admit. hes got a point. There's also warping to zero, gets you right in the face of the stargate, and ur gone a second after that. and then, you could always buy a bs pilot alt to escort you. course, the other 2 sound a lot cheaper :) ________________________________________________ On average, every day, 1,236 innoncent jet cans pop after being left out too long by careless noob miners. Lets put a stop to the negligence!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:13:00 - [145] Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! Carebear??!!?? /me raises eyebrow SKUNK Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:29:00 - [146] repeat after me: empire space is safer safer safer NOT SAFE, SAFER thank you for wasting your time in a lesson that people should learn in their first 10 days of EVE. --- truth about EVE: Quote: "Guns are fine, boost players" Quote: "Players are fine, boost guns"
Undercover Palmtree	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:32:00 - [147] I've been suicide ganked and have suicide ganked A LOT of people. More likely 10x more people then the people who killed your friend. I've done all the math and have the whole thing down to a science. Out of 2 months or so of doing this all I can say is... It's not that profitable. Yes I know that you can find people who carry cargo worth billions, but you don't find those people every 5 minutes. And when you do, they are not always on auto-pilot and warping to 15km (giving you enough time to lock, scan, determine if he's worth attacking, get in range, and attack) and they are not always in a paper thing Iteron I. So esentially you end up spending a few hours (and we camp the highest traffic gates in the game) having to be very attentive, and scan everything going through. More often than not everybody gets a little bored and when something big goes through people are not paying attention and the person gets too close to the gate to engage. Other times they are in a transport, which has as much Armor/Shields/Structure as a battleship almost and cannot be taken down unless you have ridiculous firepower. Most people though.. just warp to 0, and there is no way to kill those people unless you have a very large group and everybody is very well organized.. and I mean VERY well ogranized, and at that point you could do more profitable things anyways. The other problem is that what survives is completely random. We've killed people who carry over 1 billion in cargo (and not just one item, over 150 items) and almost everything blew up with them. Yes, sometimes almost all of it must survive, but most of the time you lose a lot of the money. Essentially the whole things is a lottery game. You sit at a gate for hours, hoping that some idiot will come through on auto-pilot, carrying everything he owns, in the weakest hauling ship in the game and that when you blow him up, he is going to drop most of the loot. Can it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. It's the same chance as you going ratting and a faction item dropping thats worth 2 billion isk. Does it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no.
Toda Toranaga Gallente Golden Apples of the Sun Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:38:00 - [148] Originally by: Undercover Palmtree I've been suicide ganked and have suicide ganked A LOT of people. More likely 10x more people then the people who killed your friend. I've done all the math and have the whole thing down to a science. Out of 2 months or so of doing this all I can say is... It's not that profitable. Yes I know that you can find people who carry cargo worth billions, but you don't find those people every 5 minutes. And when you do, they are not always on auto-pilot and warping to 15km (giving you enough time to lock, scan, determine if he's worth attacking, get in range, and attack) and they are not always in a paper thing Iteron I. So esentially you end up spending a few hours (and we camp the highest traffic gates in the game) having to be very attentive, and scan everything going through. More often than not everybody gets a little bored and when something big goes through people are not paying attention and the person gets too close to the gate to engage. Other times they are in a transport, which has as much Armor/Shields/Structure as a battleship almost and cannot be taken down unless you have ridiculous firepower. Most people though.. just warp to 0, and there is no way to kill those people unless you have a very large group and everybody is very well organized.. and I mean VERY well ogranized, and at that point you could do more profitable things anyways. The other problem is that what survives is completely random. We've killed people who carry over 1 billion in cargo (and not just one item, over 150 items) and almost everything blew up with them. Yes, sometimes almost all of it must survive, but most of the time you lose a lot of the money. Essentially the whole things is a lottery game. You sit at a gate for hours, hoping that some idiot will come through on auto-pilot, carrying everything he owns, in the weakest hauling ship in the game and that when you blow him up, he is going to drop most of the loot. Can it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. It's the same chance as you going ratting and a faction item dropping thats worth 2 billion isk. Does it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. Well, there you have it. Its really NOT that overbalanced. Sometimes, people just get lucky. It happens to everyone now and then. Like when us HONEST industrialists fly into a system with a LOT of belts, filled with a LOT of macro miners, and u got that nice big hauler to take it all back to the station "for them" ahh. I love macro miners. They just keep giving and giving. ________________________________________________ "Notice: Strip Miner I deactivates because you were AFK smoking a ciggarette."
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.21 14:46:00 - [149] If you ask me thats no real problem there is risk in high sec. players seem to forget that and they think the high sec players never have risk at all. i have seen gate camps take out BS but i have seen the ones that do it now get web and killed by every ship at the gate.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.07.21 15:19:00 - [150] While I support a person's right to suicide gank, as there's no reason to put a stop to it, per se, as EVE is all about freedom, I personally think insurance should not be paid out if your ship is destroyed by police/faction/concord. Concord do not provide protection, they provide punishment; a reaction to criminal action. Not getting your insurance would mean the ganker would have to benefit from the loot, which is how it should be. "A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.21 15:57:00 - [151] This happens because, unlike the loan contract thing, suicide ganking isnt taking advantage of the system to get around the rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Im taking my stuff to oblivion with me :p
Dionisius Gallente LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL	Posted - 2007.07.21 17:12:00 - [152] Theres already a game mechanic... obscure to most people, laying dormant in their subconscious minds... called war dec. And there is something called Concord, oblivious to all except the criminal and victims.. an entity that should enforce the law of the land. In sum concord should insta/perma jam, web, tracking disrupt and pop every suicide ganker...plus that persons drones should be poped instantly also. Wardecs exist to be used and thats what makes high sec "semi-safer". _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Shadowrunner99	Posted - 2007.07.21 17:12:00 - [153] It is very funny to me the people that compare Concord to the police, while not comparing the difference in severity of the punishment.
Yagyu Retsudo	Posted - 2007.07.21 17:25:00 - [154] Edited by: Yagyu Retsudo on 21/07/2007 17:25:52 To be brutally honest the problem is CCP allows trial accounts without a credit card. This means that one person can grab 100's of web emails and create as many trial accounts as they have computers to run. A KVM switch just makes it easy. Sure, you cant train everything on a trial account, but a gang of T1 frigates can pop an indy pretty fast. Besides, its pretty obvious that trials are used for innumerable other shady exploits. Perhaps CCP should implement a credit card check to create a trial account, like 99% of the other MMO's. Of course, that would break this easily abusable game mechanic, and force people to use alts instead of disposable trials.
midge Mo'yb R.U.S.T. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.21 19:08:00 - [155] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase. Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp. Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. (Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly) Sincerely, RFwills Hi wills!!! i still pwn you! Antares Shipyards
Moridin920 Gallente Dust Echoes FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.21 22:01:00 - [156] Originally by: Gibbal Slogspit The 'Criminals' in EvE, seem to get a lot more forgiveness than the people that are trading, that are running missions that are mining. Maybe that aspect of the game isnt balanced. Maybe it just seems that way to you because you aren't a 'criminal' yourself. It's pretty hard being a pirate when you can't go into high sec to grab a new ship and fittings, or even travel through high sec with your nice battleship to go support a fleet and you have to go 50 jumps through low sec instead (vs. 10-15 through high sec). Someone said that suicide gankers should get an auto -5. Aside from the fact that that'd be hard to gauge, since the only way I can think of to program that is if you attack someone in high sec you get -5 (and thus screwing over newbies, or people who accidentally click a remote rep or web or whatever... It happens), that seems like a ridiculously hard punishment. After all, they are just preying on people who are too dumb to protect their assets. Really, it's not that hard, you don't even need a friend to do it. Put your stuff in cans, don't transport everything you ******* own in one ship, put a tank on there, and don't AFK transport if you have that much of value in your hold. People hate people who log off to escape; people AFK transporting and then complaining about getting killed are just as bad in my eyes. You can't take the time to sit at your PC, you'll get killed. Transport when you have the time to pay a little attention. It's not hard; I've done homework while transporting through high sec and I can still take the time to look up and click warp to XXX gate so I don't run the risk of getting popped. Also, does anyone notice how pirates and pvpers whine a lot less? I could start listing off things I'd like changed to benefit me and everything I don't like, but I prefer to just work around it and most of the time it's not a crippling thing. My drones MWD sometimes? Oh well. I'd rather take the loot and jet, leave behind 5 million in T2 drones than sit there and wait for the guy's friends to come and kill my battleship. I just have to think about it for a little bit, instead of sitting there, getting killed, then going on the forums to whine about it. RL comparisons are stupid, but as long as the carebears like them here's one: Banks transport lots of money in bullet-proof, often times gas-proof, armored vans with run flat tires. What you people are doing is transporting money in my neighbor's SUV. It looks nice, sure, but it's going to get jacked up pretty quickly by a robber. And if you're wondering, no I don't suicide gank. I can't go into high sec =D. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience our piracy may have caused you, but, we are pirates and, sadly, this is our way."
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.21 22:03:00 - [157] Originally by: Moridin920 Also, does anyone notice how pirates and pvpers whine a lot less? I mean, I know this thread is a joke, but thats got to be the funniest thing I have read all day Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.21 22:08:00 - [158] the op is not saying that you should be safe in high sec. He;s saying the attacker and the victim should both get messed up. where does anyone say no attacking in high sec? Getting rid of insurance payout would not end this. People would still do high sec suicide runs. but that's just it.. they are called SUICIDE runs. Suicide seems to assume that your going to die and lose something. how is it a suicide run if you don't really get that big of a loss? no offense but all of people that say it's ok to get your money back when you high sec suicide run, you all sound like carebears that don't want to to commit suicide. like poser emo kids. /wrists lol aww that's not funny ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.07.22 09:44:00 - [159] Thread cleaned. Please keep your replies polite and constructive. Thanks! -Jacques forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.07.22 09:46:00 - [160] It's hi sec, not full sec. Live with it, if u can afford 2 bill in assets u can afford to skill up for a T2 hauler and some secure cans. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
kimish	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:04:00 - [161] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 08/06/2007 05:47:54 Originally by: RFwills Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! Sure it can... not if the attackers know what they are doing.. and yes it is an exploit since it was not the idea with the design from the start, but ccp can't take action or will not since it is hard to say when people to it as a normal every day thing with alt trail... that is the main problem it have NO kind of negative feat for the attacker...
Moridin920 Gallente Dust Echoes FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 07:49:00 - [162] Edited by: Moridin920 on 23/07/2007 07:48:39 Originally by: kimish and yes it is an exploit since it was not the idea with the design from the start, but ccp can't take action or will not since it is hard to say when people to it as a normal every day thing with alt trail.. Using jetcans to mass mine wasn't really in the design from the start but now you've got basically the whole economy depending on miners being able to output that much ore... Just because it wasn't a design doesn't mean it's an exploit. An exploit is more using broken code to take advantage of others knowingly. There aren't really any code errors that allow suicide ganking, it's possible through existing code that is error free (at least in that respect, I can't claim to know if the code is perfect or not). Oh, and thanks Tortun Nahme, I appreciate that =D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience our piracy may have caused you, but, we are pirates and, sadly, this is our way."
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:23:00 - [163] Originally by: 000Hunter000 It's hi sec, not full sec. Thing is, at least back when I started roughly 2 years ago, there was zero indication in the tutorial or anywhere else in game that you are in danger from other players in highsec. If I didn't forum *****, I would not be aware of the danger to this day probably. Now personally I do believe that forum whoring should be mandatory for successful gameplay in any game, but again that is not mentioned anywhere in EVE either. And since there are so many non-forum-goers, there are a lot of people that DO believe it is full sec. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
FaNaTiCx Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:27:00 - [164] Originally by: RFwills Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Originally by: Gaven Blands The next time the police show up in less than 20 seconds when you're getting murdered, let me know, so that I can pay you a million dollars which I am prepared to wager that this will never happen. Haha! Unless the Concord ship has John McClane piloting it! --- Insert cool signature here.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:33:00 - [165] @OP High security is not safe, its "safer" and it means just that, it means that I wont shoot you cause i dont like losing "my" ship and need to travel high sec and dont like grinding sec status up that mutch. It however also means that someone who has no issue grinding sec status and losing his ship, WILL kill you anywhere anytime. This has been since the conception of eve. Heck in the beginning Concord di not even exsist, and later one could easily tank them for hours on end. This has changed and it is an exploit not losing your ship if you attack a nonwar target in high sec. But if you coordinate and sacrifice, a team of individuals can and will take your ships down. Seccondly: EVE > RL. Ok? This is a game, it has set rules and boundaries within its social sandbox. These rules excists to make the game an interesting harsh environment. If you do not like what EVE is, dont play it. Its that simple. Third: lighten up, its a game, people quit all the time, if you aregoing to drop all your crap into a freighter or hauler and it gets popped you lost. You did not prepare, You are to blaim for your loss. You assumed you are invincible. All of these are mistakes You made, either learn from them and become the better player for it or leave. Adapt or Die, as they say.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:27:00 - [166] Edited by: cal nereus on 23/07/2007 09:27:25 Hi-sec is relatively safer, especially if you are in a corp that has no wars or an NPC corp. But it ain't perfect. Concord is not a neighborhood watch program, big brother, or even the police (who basically work for the public). It is a private firm initially founded by the empires to prevent war, and has since then developed into a sovereign entity (although its goals are largely the same as they were at the start). The main draw of Eve is the opposite of security (fun for some people). The main draw of Eve is freedom (fun for the other people). The freedom to affect other players whether they want it or not, to have a positive impact or a negative impact on a portion of the Eve community, to help some while hurting others. That is the main draw of Eve. That freedom that can only be achieved in the absence of perfect security. We have varying degrees of security that create consequences for actions, but that do not necessarily prevent them. And although I am reluctant to do so, I shall also play the realism card. It is totally unrealistic to have perfect police preventing anything resembling crime, or a police that is 100% fair. It doesn't exist. :-/
Completely UnAmused	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:06:00 - [167] not an exploit. if you amassed a few billion isk then you damn well knew about suicide ganks. Just because your friend did something stupid doesn't mean the gankers used an exploit. If you missed the part about how concord reacts, the fact that theres a slight delay before they respond and pop the attacking party ,then its your friend's fault.
Dreema Electriqk	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:26:00 - [168] did he say "ludacris"?
Dreema Electriqk	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:30:00 - [169] i agree with grath
Scott Ryder Omen Incorporated Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:45:00 - [170] Well its right, concord isnt meant to protect you, but they are meant to punish. If me and a friend wants to gank someone and we loose, we win. Easy as that. we get the loot and gets our gankageddon insurance paid back. so concord isnt really punishing anyone. If you go between jita and Hek i think you will find more gatecamps there then if you take 12 0.0 jumps. So either remove concord. They are only creating lag anyways.. They for sure as **** dont do any good. Or you could remove insurance payouts when concord ganks you. Only way to balance it.
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:28:00 - [171] OP. just a though, a regular megathron fitted with a full set of cargo expander IIs, 3 cargo optimisation rig IIs and 4 LES IIs can carry about 6400m3 cargo and has 20k shields. i've named it the afkhaulathron.
Audio Bully	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:51:00 - [172] Its not an exploit
TJ Sebastian Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:53:00 - [173] ... and necromancy is bad !!
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:53:00 - [174] there is more or less simple solution for high sec ganking. Mark wreck as belonging to Concord and/or disallow looting this wreck nobody except corpmates. But I am not sure that this is good. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and <
Arii Smith Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:53:00 - [175] 1. Shooting someone is an exploit? Since when? Just because they ain't ready for it does not mean a thing. 2. Anyone else lolling that on the same page there is a thread complaining that hauling is toooo ez and haulers need a nerf?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:56:00 - [176] 1st rule of eve. Do not undock anything you are not willing to lose. 2nd. Undocking == consenting to pvp etc. Concord is there to provide consequence, not protect. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Grez Minmatar Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.06 10:41:00 - [177] Always make several trips. Use a blockade runner. They have less cargo space, but they're a *** to catch, even with people scouting. DON'T AFK BILLIONS OF ISK THROUGH EMPIRE** ---
Demarcus Revolting Cocks	Posted - 2007.09.06 10:53:00 - [178] Originally by: Laboratus 1st rule of eve. Do not undock anything you are not willing to lose. 2nd. Undocking == consenting to pvp etc. Concord is there to provide consequence, not protect. This about sums it up. ------------------------------------- You are all worthless, and weak.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.09.06 10:57:00 - [179] Originally by: RFwills You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. No.
HaulandHaul Gallente Caldari Deep Space Ventures Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.09.06 11:09:00 - [180] If u walk over the streets in a huge city, and someone trys to stabs u, do u think the police would be there within 15 seconds to wtfbbq whoever wants to stab u BEFORE they stab u? snip Modifying another player's signature graphic to insult them is trolling. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.06 11:12:00 - [181] 1. Suicide ganking is NOT an exploit. It's meant to be like that. If it wasn't, you couldn't lock people in highsec unless you had a war on or somesuch. 2. Necroing useless chats about making suicide ganking an exploit ? BAD ! _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Nasair	Posted - 2007.09.06 11:26:00 - [182] Originally by: Akita T The ONLY TWO SURE WAYS to protect yourself COMPLETELY from suicide gankers ? 1. Never haul stuff that's worth more than what's needed to pop you open in the couple of seconds before CONCORD arrives and toasts the offenders. 2. Always use at least one scout, best use several scouts, on both sides of the next gate AND on arrival gate. Everything else is just caca-del-torro. Nothing else really helps there. You CAN'T hide stuff in cans, not even secure ones, and especially not in courier packages. All the contents of all the containers you carry show up in cargoscans. You CAN'T get help from friends to survive the suiciding. If CONCORD can't stop them from killing you, do you really think they'll be bothered by a few friends ? Or, better said, do you think they stand a chance remote repairing you ? If that was the case, they'd do it all the time in fleet battles when people get called primary. THAT NEVER HAPPENDS, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. Note: even the above "surefire ways to protect your cargo" are not 100% idiot-proof. There could always be a traitor involved, especially if you carry a large amount of valuable stuff around on a regular basis. Yeah who would want to use a logistic ship anyway, it only has the repping power of an internal capital rep broken up into nice 6 second chunks, no, no help at all against those caracals
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.09.06 11:37:00 - [183] Nowhere anywhere does it tell you that you are safe in high sec. your (stupid) friend is better off out of the game if he quits because of one loss. This is not the game for him, or you tbh. :P
Aaron	Posted - 2007.09.06 11:50:00 - [184] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude. it is quite silly when you think about it. Going back to real life, insurance policies always have many terms and conditions, in eve however i think it is just 1, u cant repackage the insured ship else insurance will be invalid. All it would take is just to add a condition where if the user is the aggressor in secure space then ship insurance becomes invalid if ship is lost, if the ship is not lost and they are the aggressor, then the insurance policy must be renewed at half the cost of original policy. this will make suicide ganking a bit more costly for the gankers. either way the person being suicide ganked loses out, even if the gankers dont get insurance payouts , they still get all the loot. and an aggression counter that means nothing, the victim is in no position to fight for his loot. seriously though, u guys have got to stop carrying large amounts of goods, i know its good to get the haulage done quickly but u need to exersize patience here. try doing a few jumps minutes before downtime, or travel directly after downtime, try and fit cloaks then you can asses the gate for possible gankers. take your haulage very seriously, and dont take silly risks.
Mad Scorpion	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:01:00 - [185] Well looks like it boils down to this: 1) There is NO safe place to fly in EVE. 2) Never run that much ISK in a flimsy, slow T1 hauler. 3) Never fly AFK 4) If you need to haul a few bil ISK worth of stuff, break it up and use a well armored ship loaded to the gills with Warp Core Stabilizers. Make several trips. 5) ALWAYS expect the worse possible situation and be prepared for it. I hope your friend comes back to EVE. It's the very danger of this game that keeps me coming back after each time I quit for a short break. Mad Scorpion
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:09:00 - [186] Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 12:09:44 The crap thing on this situations is , that suicide gankers will be hourned by concord. Loosing the ship means u get your insurance back or the worth of minerals in isks. There is only one Part( suicde gankers) who will ever win, if they find someone who is carry a lot of worthfull stuff around without protection. Sucide gankings and concord actions should not be honored by concord. (no insurance payback if u get killed doing a criminal act inside high sec system.) Concord shoud take suicide gankers for a "short ammount of time" into prison. ( this woud let ppls think about if it s worth doing it. Simple math calculation loot vrs time) If The Player wanna go out of prison he had to pay a " caution ". In this time he should not leave the system as long Concord have found a sentence. This woud not keep ppls from doing suicide gankings, only think about if its worth. If sentences are expensive, or keep u from playing. Not the possibilty of doing suicide ganking shoud be change, only the consequences doing it. It s all time bad to hear ppls which playing long time the game leaving it , cos of situations they have an unfair touch. breg mac Ps : Jita 600 ppls+... 4-4 station docking.... 40 secs loading time(sometimes more sometimes less like russsian roulette then)..... blackscreen...... Upps im in pod ... and i couldnt do anything just accepting.... this cannot not be the way my personal minds "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Lyn Z Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.09.06 13:07:00 - [187] Your friend likely carebeared himself into that 2b. Then he decided to tra-la-la it all in a cheap hauler AFK. His fault. Not an exploit. Get over it.
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.06 13:08:00 - [188] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri ..stuff... Originally by: RFwills The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. That is correct. And I admit that there are flaws. Even if a ganker doesn't get anything insurance will cover his loss. And given the current ship build costs he'd actually make profit out of it. The sec hit for ganking is kind of negligible if you ain't doing it full-time. So you are right - for some people a career in the ganking field might seem attractive. ..stuff.. I think this is finally one of the professions that CCP's been promising us all along. Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.06 13:13:00 - [189] Originally by: Gerrard Lea No place is safe, only safer :P Eve Golden Rules
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.06 13:38:00 - [190] Quote: If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word You don't need to, you just shouldn't be hauling around 2b+ per trip. If you don't it isn't economicly viable for suicide gankers to destroy the freighter. Freighters were designed to move around, well, freight... If you do decide to use it for expensive loads then it's your own fault. Just make more then 1 trip. Quote: Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord. Concord is there to nuke the attackers, which they do. It's even an exploit to not loose your ship after aggressing. But no it isn't Concords task to prevent killings. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:16:00 - [191] It is certainly not exploit, but it is certainly easy-money mode. And this easy-money mode must be nerfed. A ECM had been nerfed. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and <
hedfunk Caldari High Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:24:00 - [192] Originally by: Undercover Palmtree Edited by: Undercover Palmtree on 21/07/2007 14:36:37 I've been suicide ganked and have suicide ganked A LOT of people. More likely 10x more people then the people who killed your friend. I've done all the math and have the whole thing down to a science. Out of 2 months or so of doing this all I can say is... It's not that profitable. Yes I know that you can find people who carry cargo worth billions, but you don't find those people every 5 minutes. And when you do, they are not always on auto-pilot and warping to 15km (giving you enough time to lock, scan, determine if he's worth attacking, get in range, and attack) and they are not always in a paper thing Iteron I. So esentially you end up spending a few hours (and we camp the highest traffic gates in the game) having to be very attentive, and scan everything going through. More often than not everybody gets a little bored and when something big goes through people are not paying attention and the person gets too close to the gate to engage. Other times they are in a transport, which has as much Armor/Shields/Structure as a battleship almost and cannot be taken down unless you have ridiculous firepower. Most people though.. just warp to 0, and there is no way to kill those people unless you have a very large group and everybody is very well organized.. and I mean VERY well ogranized, and at that point you could do more profitable things anyways. The other problem is that what survives is completely random. We've killed people who carry over 1 billion in cargo (and not just one item, over 150 items) and almost everything blew up with them. Yes, sometimes almost all of it must survive, but most of the time you lose a lot of the money. Essentially the whole things is a lottery game. You sit at a gate for hours, hoping that some idiot will come through on auto-pilot, carrying everything he owns, in the weakest hauling ship in the game and that when you blow him up, he is going to drop most of the loot. Can it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. It's the same chance as you going ratting and a faction item dropping thats worth 2 billion isk. Does it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. Oh and PS, the people who killed your friend were a bunch of idiots. You don't suicide gank with T2 drones. You need a single Brutix, full ion blasters, anti-matter ammo, explosive damage drones (not thermal, those people were really stupid). and magnetic field stabilizers. The idea is that Iterons have almost no shields, and because they use cargo expanders they have almost no hull either, that only leaves about 1000 armor to get through, so you max out on explosive damage. Drones are not what gets the job done, blasters are, because blasters are the highest dps weapon in the game. When you pull up in optimal range and shoot an Iteron I with 7 med blasters with antimatter they will blow up in 5-10 seconds (That's just 1 brutix). The drones just seal the deal. To all those people thinking it's the drones that make this possbile because they keep attacking when concord gets there... those people are REALLY REALLY stupid and have no clue how suicide ganking works what so ever. When concord gets there you blow up almost instantly. It doesn't matter that you use drones or not, the whole idea is to kill the target before concord gets there, which is very easy to do. You can't of been very good at it then, or just very unlucky, permenantley. Suicide ganking is very cost effective. As in 2months ago, I had 30mill after playing like 6/7months. Now I have billions.
THEGREAT LOBO Trouble Every Day	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:30:00 - [193] Originally by: Noluck Ned The biggest problem and in fact the very root of the whole highsec gank problem is that there are still nubs who fly about in untanked t1 haulers with billions in their cargo hold. THAT is the real reason this situation exists. ITS THEIR OWN FAULT FOR BEING SO EASY TO KILL WITH AMAZING REWARDS FOR DOING SO. Very True, If you are going to carry 2 bill worth of stuff, a frieghter is the way to go. any ity will not last long at all if you get attacked. And in jita ? carrying 2 bill worth of stuff in an ity in jita is just asking to ganked. Welcome to eve, The safest you get is when you are docked up ---------------------------------------------
hedfunk Caldari High Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:41:00 - [194] Originally by: Macmuelli Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 12:13:53 Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 12:09:44 The crap thing on this situations is , that suicide gankers will be hourned by concord. Loosing the ship means u get your insurance back or the worth of minerals in isks. That wouldn't bother me or my gangmates. We lose a minimal amount with or without insurance. Originally by: Macmuelli There is only one Part( suicde gankers) who will ever win, if they find someone who is carry a lot of worthfull stuff around without protection. That's kind of the point of doing it though isn't it? Stupid point. Originally by: Macmuelli Sucide gankings and concord actions should not be honored by concord. (no insurance payback if u get killed doing a criminal act inside high sec system.) As pointed out, that wouldn't matter to alot of people, and we get a sec hit aswell. Originally by: Macmuelli Concord shoud take suicide gankers for a "short ammount of time" into prison. ( this woud let ppls think about if it s worth doing it. Simple math calculation loot vrs time) We can't undock for 15minutes after a kill. Originally by: Macmuelli If The Player wanna go out of prison he had to pay a " caution ". In this time he should not leave the system as long Concord have found a sentence. This woud not keep ppls from doing suicide gankings, only think about if its worth. If sentences are expensive, or keep u from playing. Riiiiiiiiiight. Originally by: Macmuelli Not the possibilty of doing suicide ganking shoud be change, only the consequences doing it. It s all time bad to hear ppls which playing long time the game leaving it , cos of situations they have an unfair touch. There are consequenses for suicide ganking. Anyone quitting over them getting suicided ganked should never of played the game imo. It's there own fault at the end of the day. It's easily avoided. Really easily. breg mac Originally by: Macmuelli Ps : Jita 600 ppls+... 4-4 station docking.... 40 secs loading time(sometimes more sometimes less like russsian roulette then)..... blackscreen...... Upps im in pod ... and i couldnt do anything just accepting.... Any suicide gankers who suicide in Jita, I laugh at. It osn't only laggy for the victim. The chances of getting your loot stolen is very high, and the chance of getting concorded without a successful kill is high due to lag.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:13:00 - [195] Originally by: ry ry OP. just a though, a regular megathron fitted with a full set of cargo expander IIs, 3 cargo optimisation rig IIs and 4 LES IIs can carry about 6400m3 cargo and has 20k shields. i've named it the afkhaulathron. Posted today. Post before that: 2007.07.23 11:45:00 IMOTHEP! IMOTHEP! IMOTHEP! What were you hoping to achieve in terms of constructive progress by necroing an old thread about a topic as controversial as suicide ganking?
nightslasher	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:41:00 - [196] Originally by: RFwills Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. I guess it is fair then that I sign that I DISAGREE with your position, and believe that what your friend experienced should NOT be stopped. I do sympathize, however....
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:46:00 - [197] Risk/Reward of suicide ganking is quite low. If you haul more than 50mil you're a target. That's a problem. Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:47:00 - [198] Originally by: nightslasher Originally by: RFwills Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp. I guess it is fair then that I sign that I DISAGREE with your position, and believe that what your friend experienced should NOT be stopped. I do sympathize, however.... I think we've been having a slight zombie problem lately. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:50:00 - [199] It's still an issue, that's probably why the thread wasn't locked for necro. Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:54:00 - [200] the threads only a few weeks old - it's hardly the same as resurrecting a thread about beng ganked by m0o as you flew 100million isks worth of minerals around. if all you have to contribute to a thread is OMFG NECRO LOLZ! you are mistaken: you actually have nothing to contribute.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Steel-Wolfs	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:56:00 - [201] Originally by: Jinx Barker Perhaps some mechanics need to be adjusted, but for Pete's sake, stop screaming and yelling at the top of your lungs "Exploit" - it is not, and never will be, it is a valid game mechanic that was part of the game since the inception. Empire was never meant to be "safe" - it is MORE SECURE than other places, thats it. I went plenty of times to Jita, got really good mods, and got attacked at the gate. Some sensible ship setups+warp to 0, and you can survive almost anything in a Blockade Runner, or an Assault Ship like Ishkur. Wrong, it is a Exploit/oversight. Why do you suppose only 1 type of ship is used to pull it off? Because CCP forgot to code Concord to jam drones. So while the cops are happily jamming the Domi out the Waazu, its drones continue happily blowing up the freighter. Try maiking a ganksquad using Blasters and megathrons instead, and see what the cost of a ganksquad would be... It would be much more in line.
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:59:00 - [202] lol I cannot remember reading anywhere that empire high-sec was "safe". It just has concord to kill people who agress unlawfully. Maybe if yor friend had not been ******** enough to carry 2bil around without escort then it would not have happened. (All you need is one or two logistics ships for your "escort" btw).
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:05:00 - [203] Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 16:05:58 Originally by: Macmuelli Sucide gankings and concord actions should not be honored by concord. (no insurance payback if u get killed doing a criminal act inside high sec system.) As pointed out, that wouldn't matter to alot of people, and we get a sec hit aswell. "A Sec hit is compare to fast. Go into 0.0 Kill some npc and u back in no time to + standing." Originally by: Macmuelli Concord shoud take suicide gankers for a "short ammount of time" into prison. ( this woud let ppls think about if it s worth doing it. Simple math calculation loot vrs time) We can't undock for 15minutes after a kill. "U can undock in your Pod and board a new one or not ? and what is 15 minutes ? i vote for 30." Originally by: Macmuelli If The Player wanna go out of prison he had to pay a " caution ". In this time he should not leave the system as long Concord have found a sentence. This woud not keep ppls from doing suicide gankings, only think about if its worth. If sentences are expensive, or keep u from playing. Riiiiiiiiiight. Originally by: Macmuelli Not the possibilty of doing suicide ganking shoud be change, only the consequences doing it. It s all time bad to hear ppls which playing long time the game leaving it , cos of situations they have an unfair touch. There are consequenses for suicide ganking. Anyone quitting over them getting suicided ganked should never of played the game imo. It's there own fault at the end of the day. It's easily avoided. Really easily. " the consequences are not balanced, if u see freighters goes down in 40 seconds.And see that ppls using battleships for suicide ganking,with the knowledge getting back the insurance/or minimum the minerals worth of the ship after doing it." This should be changed breg mac "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Steel Tigeress Gallente Steel-Wolfs	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:05:00 - [204] Originally by: MITSUK0 lol I cannot remember reading anywhere that empire high-sec was "safe". It just has concord to kill people who agress unlawfully. Maybe if yor friend had not been ******** enough to carry 2bil around without escort then it would not have happened. (All you need is one or two logistics ships for your "escort" btw). If you believe that, then your a bigger noob than the guy who got ganked.
hedfunk Caldari High Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:47:00 - [205] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Wrong, it is a Exploit/oversight. Why do you suppose only 1 type of ship is used to pull it off? Because CCP forgot to code Concord to jam drones. So while the cops are happily jamming the Domi out the Waazu, its drones continue happily blowing up the freighter. Try maiking a ganksquad using Blasters and megathrons instead, and see what the cost of a ganksquad would be... It would be much more in line. Plenty of different ships suicide gank. I don't use drones at all. It is no exploit at all.
Ciphero The Wild Hunt FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:19:00 - [206] Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this *** happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. Actually, I've lost significant amounts due to my own stupidity as well, albeit not in exactly the same way. I admitted it was my fault (lag issues aside, there is always something you could have done to prevent loss), changed my tactics and didn't make the same mistake again. That is the attitude that Eve breeds. Accept that things will not always go your way and learn from the mistakes you make. Your friend made one and he paid for it. He had three choices - adapt, ignore and make the mistake again or leave the game - same as everyone else. Frankly, if you don't choose the first one, Eve is not for you - that's fine, but it's not worth crying over. Sympathies to your friend, but isn't just the gankers that killed him. He presented himself to lose a lot of isk if he ran into gankers. Sucks for him that, on that day, he did. --
Ix Ugnot Mineral Investment Bank Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.06 20:37:00 - [207] Seems to me the elephant in the room is the momentum of the existing player base and the acceptance of new players to join the eve community (to..uh..play the game because they "enjoy it"). Everything else is irrelevant. The game WILL ONLY continue if new players are added and existing player stay to pay. Killing new players as they exit their station for the first time is just another example of the "strange gameplay" of "certain" individuals. Change the way things are set up in high security or its just a matter of time otherwise.
Hirakai Forias	Posted - 2007.09.06 20:59:00 - [208] I've just discovered that "Hello Kitty Online" is actually a real game. This disturbs me.
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.06 21:00:00 - [209] The problem is that suicide ganking is too profitable, too easy to fix (via ratting) standings, too replaceable (via insurance), and too opportunistic (via cargoscanning). The stupidity of using a t1 hauler to transport billions was the issue years ago. The issue now is that CONCORD is impotent enough against drones and tanking boosts that people can get away with murder. I personally like the current balance of CONCORD - they're not super-powerful, and it's possible to escape in the right ship. I think the Sentry Guns are significantly underpowered compared to how they used to be, and need a doubling off DPS. The problem is that the ships being paper-thin against sentries and concord was the easy numerical hack that fixed suicide ganking and aided gate ganking previously. I would solve all this with a doubling of sentry DPS, and one simple measure: cargoscanning = aggression.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.06 21:24:00 - [210] Remove insurance and for gods sake let freighterpilots tank their ships. There should be a risk vs reward in highsec too. The problem is that the traders/haulers in freighters have very few options to insure their safety in a way that donÆt ruin their profits.
hedfunk Caldari High Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.09.06 21:49:00 - [211] How many times? Removing insurance wouldn't stop it. I've seen people moving billions upon billions, I would quite happily lose a 100mill ship if I had a chance of gaining 200+. However i lose only 2mill per ship I lose. 5 without insurance. Ratting isn't that easy. You lose 0.5% (I think) For aggresion and 2% for the ship kill. The most you can get in 0.0 is 0.25%, every 15minutes. You do the math. And evading CONCORD is an exploit, and bannable i think.
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.06 21:58:00 - [212] The only way for a hauler to be suicide ganked in highsec is for him to be AFK. CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk. Had you not wondered why the autopilot does not warp to 0? If you are not _playing_ then tough luck on getting blown up. Now if you will excuse me I need to go drink until this DRAMA headache goes away (I'm sverly alergic to whining drama queens) After that I think i'll make another few billion suicide ganking haulers :-) Don't want me to suicide gank you? Do not travel afk.
farfrael	Posted - 2007.09.06 22:04:00 - [213] while unpleasant, suicide-ganks in empire are not an exploit there is NO "perfectly" safe place in eve, it has been designed this way live with it or leave the game
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.06 22:12:00 - [214] Originally by: hedfunk How many times? Removing insurance wouldn't stop it. I've seen people moving billions upon billions, I would quite happily lose a 100mill ship if I had a chance of gaining 200+. However i lose only 2mill per ship I lose. 5 without insurance. Ratting isn't that easy. You lose 0.5% (I think) For aggresion and 2% for the ship kill. The most you can get in 0.0 is 0.25%, every 15minutes. You do the math. And evading CONCORD is an exploit, and bannable i think. Not many are asking for a complete stop to high-sec ganking. The removal of insurance would however make it viable to fill (as in use all cargo) freighters with average priced stuff without being a profitable target for suicide gankers.
Aaron	Posted - 2007.09.06 22:19:00 - [215] Originally by: Admiral Black CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk. so what about the afk cloakers then?
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.06 22:24:00 - [216] Losing 2b of stuff? Was that in a regular hauler instead of a freighter? Sounds like it to me or you've met some very efficient suicide gankers Flying untanked haulers on autopilot is asking to get suicide ganked. Warp to zero, wcs, inertia stabs, and nanofibres are your friend. There are methods to avoid being suicide ganked so it's not an exploit or griefing. If people decide to leave all those slots on the hauler empty or afk with expensive loot then you get what you ask for. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.06 22:28:00 - [217] Originally by: Vishnej I personally like the current balance of CONCORD - they're not super-powerful, and it's possible to escape in the right ship. I think the Sentry Guns are significantly underpowered compared to how they used to be, and need a doubling off DPS. The problem is that the ships being paper-thin against sentries and concord was the easy numerical hack that fixed suicide ganking and aided gate ganking previously. Evading Concorde is an exploit. The dps from gate guns is a lot, even in 0.5 there are (I believe) 6 gate guns which dish out roughly 1050dps. The dps doubling won't make much difference to suicide ganks as there are numerous ships. Concorde now jam drones so that the drones engage Concorde instead of the target. Most suicide ganks will be complete before concordes arrival so your suggested ideas would be ineffective. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.06 23:25:00 - [218] I'm pretty much a carebear but if I knew someone was hauling 2+ billion in a 'poorly tanked indy' I'd frigging suicide gank him myself. Your friend deserved to lose his stuff, because he was stupid. And stupidity in EVE is a terminal illness.
max bygraves	Posted - 2007.09.06 23:29:00 - [219] Quote: The only way for a hauler to be suicide ganked in highsec is for him to be AFK. CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk. Bang on the money this is.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.06 23:32:00 - [220] Quote: "The whole point of Hi sec is safety" That right there is where the OP went wrong. 'HiSec' does not implicitly imply safety, people!! I know this is an epicly necrod post, but I just had to put my .02 ISK in. -=^=-
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.06 23:36:00 - [221] don't fly what you can't afford to lose... unless your a hauler in high sec then the world is your oyster. That just doesn't sound like Eve to me. Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.06 23:40:00 - [222] Originally by: Vodka Neat don't fly what you can't afford to lose... unless your an untanked hauler loaded with expensive loot in high sec then the world is your oyster. Fixed it for you. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Marrisa Tomei	Posted - 2007.09.07 00:08:00 - [223] Quote: Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that question. I will cause i'm one of those gankers :p
Major Death Caldari Space Salvage Incorperated	Posted - 2007.09.07 00:09:00 - [224] When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. Well there is your problem right there! Hauling billions in an untanked industrial is equivalent to transporting millions in cash in a regular van with extra money bags tied to the sides. This type of attack only works because some people are greedy or lazy. Tank your hauler if its carrying valuables you don't want to lose. The only minor adjustment CCP need to make is slower sec gain, and a slightly higher sec loss for this kind of activity.
Marrisa Tomei	Posted - 2007.09.07 00:12:00 - [225] Or make gankers get -5 sec if the y do it in high sec, so they have to go ratting to get in again. I know pvp'ers hate ratting sometimes
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.07 00:45:00 - [226] Originally by: Marrisa Tomei Or make gankers get -5 sec if the y do it in high sec, so they have to go ratting to get in again. I know pvp'ers hate ratting sometimes I have a fix for this mining should be illegal in high sec and should give a gcc flag and involve Concorde. Don't complain about my idea it's more sensible that what you're suggesting. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.07 00:55:00 - [227] It has been said time and time again by CCP and by many players: EVE is not shiny happy fairy playground. High sec is not safe, but merely safer Never undock in something you can't afford to lose. Can I have your/his stuff? Sorry for your loss, but EVE is what it is. You need to learn to live with it and adapt, not try and warp the game to your desires. It won't work and will only cause you grief. If you want carebear land, go play a different game. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.07 00:56:00 - [228] Originally by: Aaron Originally by: Admiral Black CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk. so what about the afk cloakers then? Grow some cajones, some brains, or find some friends. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
judes23 Kissaki Confederation Slammer's Republic	Posted - 2007.09.07 01:08:00 - [229] /signed i so agree with your topic man, is not even funny the ganker's insurance should be revoked =D
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.07 01:09:00 - [230] A higher sec hit is needed, sentry guns need a buff, also as long as the victim has kill rights on the pirate the pirate can not recycle the char, not being able to recycle a char I think will slow things down a bit there is far to much of this going on and needs to be addresed while I have never been a victim of this I have voted with my accounts this and the lag and decink issues after 4 years of ccp promess this and that and still worse now than ever, all 3 accounts are going down. been a fun and very intersting game, but time to show your vote. and know you can't have my stuff. will leave it to my corp well those that stay anyway The Dark Force is strong in EvE But it will fail Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Steel Tigeress Gallente Steel-Wolfs	Posted - 2007.09.07 02:39:00 - [231] Originally by: Admiral Black The only way for a hauler to be suicide ganked in highsec is for him to be AFK. CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk. Had you not wondered why the autopilot does not warp to 0? If you are not _playing_ then tough luck on getting blown up. Now if you will excuse me I need to go drink until this DRAMA headache goes away (I'm sverly alergic to whining drama queens) After that I think i'll make another few billion suicide ganking haulers :-) Don't want me to suicide gank you? Do not travel afk. Not quite true... with warp to 0, most ganks occure on the far side of a gate. Meaning you warp to 0, somone at the gate scans you, then if its profitable his buddies on the other side jump you after you go through the gate. The only real thing warp to 0 changed is what direction people are moving relative to the gate.
CCCP lalalalalla	Posted - 2007.09.07 03:07:00 - [232] ccp should just add warp to 0 for autopilot. If you can warp to 0 manually, why does ccp make us do extra work. Its like they want this game to be a timesink, ccp there are more important things in life. If possible cut down the time on stupid things such as this timesink.
Sturack	Posted - 2007.09.07 05:10:00 - [233] Here is an idea for revenge on the Gankers Hang out near a camp in a cheap destroyer, when Concord pops one of them for ganking, POD'EM!!!!! Maybe after they loose 100mil in implants they may see the error of their ways or at least have the smirk wiped off their face when they appear in a clone vat 2 regions away
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.07 06:31:00 - [234] Originally by: Xaen It has been said time and time again by CCP and by many players: EVE is not shiny happy fairy playground. High sec is not safe, but merely safer Never undock in something you can't afford to lose. Can I have your/his stuff? Sorry for your loss, but EVE is what it is. You need to learn to live with it and adapt, not try and warp the game to your desires. It won't work and will only cause you grief. If you want carebear land, go play a different game. Problem is not danger, but easy money for every ****** in the game. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and <
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.07 07:43:00 - [235] The broken part of this imho is that a gank-blob can shut down access comepletely for a valuable transport into 1.0 space and there is no counter. What to do, suicide-gank one of the gankers? Where's the risk for the potential 2bil reward when the ganker knows the gain from scanning and knows the cost from concord? Its just calculated profit and no risk. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Possessed Clown Amarr Spiced Wine Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.07 08:25:00 - [236] Maybe if you do missions for concord they will protect you more
Helen Sobell	Posted - 2007.09.07 09:03:00 - [237] Originally by: Gutsani Originally by: DirtySnipe I agree with the point made that any ship/asset lose which is the result of concord intervention shoulld not be covered by insurance... Insurance should be void... I also agree scanning should be hostile... please come back when you have a decent solution, not a carebear one. NERF WHINERS arent you actually whining about whiners? you whiner, turn that gun on yourself. i am not whining here by the way i am just been smug
Xerxes Ceasar InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2007.09.07 11:35:00 - [238] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Originally by: RFwills I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. First it's not an exploit. And second a couple of forum whiners don't represent the majority of EVE. I suppose you have some secret Poll-figures to back up your statement about whether the majority likes griefers in Sec space or not? Xerxes http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3955/aliensigsr3.gif Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -Pirlouit
Lyn Z Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.09.07 11:46:00 - [239] Originally by: CCCP lalalalalla ccp should just add warp to 0 for autopilot. If you can warp to 0 manually, why does ccp make us do extra work. Its like they want this game to be a timesink, ccp there are more important things in life. If possible cut down the time on stupid things such as this timesink. Be at your computer when you're flying around or stfu. Problem there solved. If there's more important things in life, then go do them. Let's face it, you don't have more important things to do.
Lyn Z Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.09.07 11:47:00 - [240] Edited by: Lyn Z on 07/09/2007 11:47:09 Originally by: Zixxa Problem is not danger, but easy money for every **** in the game. And by **** you mean every high sec mission running carebear?
Drechana Endisil	Posted - 2007.09.07 12:16:00 - [241] Edited by: Drechana Endisil on 07/09/2007 12:24:55 what use are scouts??? please someone tell me what use scouts are in empire?? i cannot compute??!??! Lol you see reason i cant understand why everyone says use scouts to stay safe in empire is that ANYONE can be a suicide ganker....scouts are absolutley useless, "oh look, there are 300 people in jita, lets use our spidey sense to see which ones are suicide gankers" ffs u morons lol....in fact i would go so far as to say that scouts in empire (unless u are at war, which is not the case here) are about as useful as a chocolate teapot or a cup of cold pis And to the people that say dont carry around all ur expensive stuff....WELL WHAT IF U R TAKING IT TO JITA TO SELL IT YOU MORONS! LOL....you see no matter what all u "ooo thats the way the game works" CCP sickofants say and excuses you make and things u come up with to minimise the risk, the fact that people can get ganked in what is widely believed to be safe space...makes people quit the game. I really dont care if you people think that its tough luck the fact of the matter is, people play this game for different reasons some like fighting and some like trading and some like just sitting there lookin at the stars while making copies of T2 BP's ....but no matter what those reasons are CCP do not want peole to leave the game. I totally agree with the OP. Something should be done about it, admittedly u cant really stop it but i dont think that SG's should get insurance and maybe a nice bit of complicated code put in place that if u gank in 0.5 and above then u cant access the wreck and cargo that is left behind...yeah that would be nice. Yes i am a carebear and i love it cause im cute and cuddly and all the girls love me. Oh and also, there really are a lot of people on these forums that are complete wan*rs arnt there. They disagree with wat you say but dont really give an explanation as to why or if they do say someting its a flame or calling you a noob or calling you a whiner...saddos lol. Hope something gets done for ya OP :)
Major Death Caldari Space Salvage Incorperated	Posted - 2007.09.07 12:30:00 - [242] CCP need to create some T2 haulers. These ships should be much easier to tank, and harder to kill. Then people moving billions of isk worth of stuff could use them to avoid getting ganked. Come on CCP, put in tougher haulers!
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.07 12:33:00 - [243] Edited by: Raneru on 07/09/2007 12:33:43 Originally by: Drechana Endisil Edited by: Drechana Endisil on 07/09/2007 12:24:55 what use are scouts??? please someone tell me what use scouts are in empire?? i cannot compute??!??! Lol you see reason i cant understand why everyone says use scouts to stay safe in empire is that ANYONE can be a suicide ganker....scouts are absolutley useless, If you sit at any gate for more than 30 secs you can work out who is a suicide ganker. Quote: And to the people that say dont carry around all ur expensive stuff....WELL WHAT IF U R TAKING IT TO JITA TO SELL IT YOU MORONS! LOL.... if your cargo is that valuable to you, take it in a t2 hauler, or split it up and put it in heavier ships LOL... EDIT: Major death, really hope that was a sarcastic post..
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.07 12:40:00 - [244] Originally by: Major Death CCP need to create some T2 haulers. These ships should be much easier to tank, and harder to kill. Then people moving billions of isk worth of stuff could use them to avoid getting ganked. Come on CCP, put in tougher haulers! Ever considered that CCP doesn't want you to move 10's of billions of ISK worth of cargo without risk? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.07 13:04:00 - [245] Sure there could be some risk involved in hauling treasure, but the real problem is that there is no risk at all involved in highsec ganking. You know what you will get (cargo scan) and you know what you are going to loose (which is too little for starters). The big flaw is that the highsec gankers are protected by CONCORD while camping and can do so forever without any risk at all. Ironic isn't it? Secure space for the pirates, unsafe space for the traders that would have needed the protection. I am pretty sure that ccp did not mean to design high sec that way. Suggestions: * If you kill in high sec (not attack, kill), you get a really really serious sec hit. More or less insta-outlaw. * No insurance on ships lost to CONCORD. Imo high sec gankers should have to dec war to gank so that two can play the killing game. Not just sit under a CONCORD umbrella and gank haulers, thats more harvesting than pvp. ...and if you really want to give more protection, let CONCORD remote rep victims, but that is prolly taking it too far. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Aggrod	Posted - 2007.09.07 13:18:00 - [246] Originally by: Drechana Endisil And to the people that say dont carry around all ur expensive stuff....WELL WHAT IF U R TAKING IT TO JITA TO SELL IT YOU MORONS! LOL.... Then you take it in a ship that can get past suicide gankers. A blockade runner is not to expensive and does not take long to train for. Or, failing that, move it in smaller loads. Ive used a battleship to haul for me before, taken a few runs to do it, but the ship will take alot of firepower to take out in empire.
Lucre STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.07 14:21:00 - [247] The suicide-ganking of indies in hisec is no doubt annoying to the victims, but as others have noted there are ways of avoiding this, even playing solo. Big problem atm is that this doesn't hold for freighters. You can't fit them for defence/escape; they're so slow into warp that scouting is futile (you can leave a cloaked scout off the jump-in gate and warp your gankers in whilst it's still aligning); and their cargo is so large that it won't practically fit into anything more survivable. About the only plan that would work is command/logistics gangmates to keep them alive, but doing that for every freighter movement would be a nightmare and also is not an option for the solo pilot. CCP - we know you're aware of the problem. Fix it, huh? Soon. Or preferably sooner.
Darwin Award	Posted - 2007.09.07 17:10:00 - [248] Originally by: Hilabana Originally by: Kuolematon I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! that sounds dumb why AFK haul that not playing eve at all ! i hope you get podded a good number of times for not staying in the game . Sarcasim, look it up Hilabana. As much as I hate to say it if you fail to plan you have planned for this to happen. I have the solution that people are asking for plain and simple. You commit the act of blowing up someone in a gang, your gang gets blame. You attempt to steal someone's goods from a wreck? Welcome to blown up status. Oh wait... I got it now. High sec, you target someone else not in gang or at war? CONCORD!!!! Then again we could we just join the ranks of Concord and get an Iwin button?
pilgrim8	Posted - 2007.09.07 17:23:00 - [249] to be honest, ccp is afraid of doing something for want of ****ing off someone/group and making them quit yeah sure empire isnt 100pc safe but they also have a rule about griefing dont they? isnt that what that is. or does it have to happen to 1 person repeated times to be called that. i said before you wanna see them change something. have a few hundred peeps start making alts in the newb starter systems and start killing all the new players who try eve watch them finally do something when after a few months their paid player base dont grow
Irob Urore Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.07 18:00:00 - [250] My suggestion is, if you can't beat them join em. If enough people do this then either something gets done by CCP. Or it will eventually become subconsciously embedded into the community, that hauling loot around in a ship that can get ganked in 1 or 2 volleys, is a bad idea, especially with faction missiles now a days.
DOC PIC	Posted - 2007.09.07 18:07:00 - [251] FFS THIS IS PROBABLY WHAT POST# 2,452,365 ABOUT HIGH SEC GANK WHINEAGE!!!! 1.ITS A FREAKING GAME LEARN HOW TO PLAY AND IF YOUR FRIEND WAS A 2YO PLAYER HE KNEW BETTER. 2.ITS WELL WITHIN GAME MECHANICS SO NO NEED TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!! EVE IS NOT WOW OR HELLO KITTY.. AND YES I LOST A T2 BPO TO HIGH SEC GANKERS..
Irob Urore Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.07 18:50:00 - [252] looks like they ganked your caps lock key as well.
DOC PIC	Posted - 2007.09.07 18:52:00 - [253] LOL Some people need it spelled out for them
Captian Internet	Posted - 2007.09.07 18:58:00 - [254] Who's the douche that resurrected this thread? Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
DOC PIC	Posted - 2007.09.07 19:21:00 - [255] Originally by: Captian Internet Who's the douche that resurrected this thread? ROFL they must be bored at work tooo
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.07 23:16:00 - [256] Originally by: Aaron Originally by: Admiral Black CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk. so what about the afk cloakers then? That's not exactly "Playing" is it? now stop trolling
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.07 23:20:00 - [257] Originally by: CCCP lalalalalla ccp should just add warp to 0 for autopilot. If you can warp to 0 manually, why does ccp make us do extra work. Its like they want this game to be a timesink, ccp there are more important things in life. If possible cut down the time on stupid things such as this timesink. Originally by: Admiral Black CCP NEVER ment this game to be played afk.
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.07 23:22:00 - [258] Originally by: Sturack Here is an idea for revenge on the Gankers Hang out near a camp in a cheap destroyer, when Concord pops one of them for ganking, POD'EM!!!!! Maybe after they loose 100mil in implants they may see the error of their ways or at least have the smirk wiped off their face when they appear in a clone vat 2 regions away Podding them will get you concorded AND cost you more security status than you want to know about. You may NOT podkill criminally flagged pilots. You may ONLY podkill if: a) you are at war b) they are -5.0 sec status or lower c) you are in 0.0 space.
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.07 23:25:00 - [259] Originally by: Drechana Endisil Edited by: Drechana Endisil on 07/09/2007 12:24:55 what use are scouts??? please someone tell me what use scouts are in empire?? i cannot compute??!??! Lol you see reason i cant understand why everyone says use scouts to stay safe in empire is that ANYONE can be a suicide ganker....scouts are absolutley useless, I hate to keep posting here but there's just so much stupidity I can handle. Your scout is supposed to look for people who: a) are just sitting there on the gate b) got those sensor boosters going (blue wavy lines emenating fromt he ship) c) scanning people. (scanner makes a whole lotta noise) If you see two domis and a badger all in the same corp and all running sensor boosters then it's probably a gank. Wait for them to gank someone esle then sail on through
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.07 23:26:00 - [260] Originally by: Major Death CCP need to create some T2 haulers. These ships should be much easier to tank, and harder to kill. Then people moving billions of isk worth of stuff could use them to avoid getting ganked. Come on CCP, put in tougher haulers! and more!! Dood.. wtf do you thin "trasnports" are? just fancy t1 haulers? they ARE t2 haulers. And you can tank them VERY well.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.08 07:53:00 - [261] I lost 400 mil in materials and my transport ship to two suicide Myrmidons in high sec today. I filled the petition and I'm sure I will get a reply that its ok to do that. I will do two things: 1. Use 10 bil ISK I earned for two years I'm playing EVE to buy battleships and smartbomb everyone around Jita, I'll try and target noobs in small ships whenever possibile (well its ok to do it so why not?) 2. When all the ISK is gone I will cancel all 3 of my accounts until they decide to do something about this (if you want my stuff you cant have it because I will spend it to buy battleships and smartbombs)
Vajak	Posted - 2007.09.08 08:07:00 - [262] Originally by: Ridley Scot I lost 400 mil in materials and my transport ship to two suicide Myrmidons in high sec today. I filled the petition and I'm sure I will get a reply that its ok to do that. I will do two things: 1. Use 10 bil ISK I earned for two years I'm playing EVE to buy battleships and smartbomb everyone around Jita, I'll try and target noobs in small ships whenever possibile (well its ok to do it so why not?) 2. When all the ISK is gone I will cancel all 3 of my accounts until they decide to do something about this (if you want my stuff you cant have it because I will spend it to buy battleships and smartbombs) The funny part is that people like you fail to grasp the fact that the majority of EVE players are here because of the freedom this game offers. Does this game have the best PVE out there ? definetly not. Does this game have the most unforgiving PVP out there ? Yes and thats what keeps EVE growing. CCP has found their niche and isn¦t going to change that because people fail the realize what EVE is about before joining.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.08 08:14:00 - [263] Originally by: Vajak Originally by: Ridley Scot I lost 400 mil in materials and my transport ship to two suicide Myrmidons in high sec today. I filled the petition and I'm sure I will get a reply that its ok to do that. I will do two things: 1. Use 10 bil ISK I earned for two years I'm playing EVE to buy battleships and smartbomb everyone around Jita, I'll try and target noobs in small ships whenever possibile (well its ok to do it so why not?) 2. When all the ISK is gone I will cancel all 3 of my accounts until they decide to do something about this (if you want my stuff you cant have it because I will spend it to buy battleships and smartbombs) The funny part is that people like you fail to grasp the fact that the majority of EVE players are here because of the freedom this game offers. Does this game have the best PVE out there ? definetly not. Does this game have the most unforgiving PVP out there ? Yes and thats what keeps EVE growing. CCP has found their niche and isn¦t going to change that because people fail the realize what EVE is about before joining. I see.... So what is EVE really about? Is it about trying to find any smallest loophole and exploit to grief and take advantage of other players? Is that what is so great about EVE?
Vajak	Posted - 2007.09.08 08:36:00 - [264] Edited by: Vajak on 08/09/2007 08:38:02 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 08/09/2007 08:16:04 Originally by: Vajak Originally by: Ridley Scot I lost 400 mil in materials and my transport ship to two suicide Myrmidons in high sec today. I filled the petition and I'm sure I will get a reply that its ok to do that. I will do two things: 1. Use 10 bil ISK I earned for two years I'm playing EVE to buy battleships and smartbomb everyone around Jita, I'll try and target noobs in small ships whenever possibile (well its ok to do it so why not?) 2. When all the ISK is gone I will cancel all 3 of my accounts until they decide to do something about this (if you want my stuff you cant have it because I will spend it to buy battleships and smartbombs) The funny part is that people like you fail to grasp the fact that the majority of EVE players are here because of the freedom this game offers. Does this game have the best PVE out there ? definetly not. Does this game have the most unforgiving PVP out there ? Yes and thats what keeps EVE growing. CCP has found their niche and isn¦t going to change that because people fail the realize what EVE is about before joining. I see.... So what is EVE really about? Is it about trying to find any smallest loophole and exploit to grief and take advantage of other players? Things like corp theft, spying, scaming, lying, cheating? Is that what is so great about EVE and is that why we all play it ????? Well quite frankly yes that is part of it. Obviously you only took the parts that suite your own agenda here but EVE definetly offers by far the most possibilities for players to be creative. You call them exploits again to further your own agenda when it¦s quite obvious that they aren¦t. Corp theft allowed by CCP, scamming also allowed, etc. And the funny thing is I haven¦t done any of those, so why do risk of those constantly affects my gameplay ? Well it makes it¦s lot more interesting because you never know what is gonna happen next and you need to be able to think, or you are gonna lose as has happened to you.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.08 08:47:00 - [265] Originally by: Vajak Edited by: Vajak on 08/09/2007 08:38:02 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 08/09/2007 08:16:04 Originally by: Vajak Originally by: Ridley Scot I lost 400 mil in materials and my transport ship to two suicide Myrmidons in high sec today. I filled the petition and I'm sure I will get a reply that its ok to do that. I will do two things: 1. Use 10 bil ISK I earned for two years I'm playing EVE to buy battleships and smartbomb everyone around Jita, I'll try and target noobs in small ships whenever possibile (well its ok to do it so why not?) 2. When all the ISK is gone I will cancel all 3 of my accounts until they decide to do something about this (if you want my stuff you cant have it because I will spend it to buy battleships and smartbombs) The funny part is that people like you fail to grasp the fact that the majority of EVE players are here because of the freedom this game offers. Does this game have the best PVE out there ? definetly not. Does this game have the most unforgiving PVP out there ? Yes and thats what keeps EVE growing. CCP has found their niche and isn¦t going to change that because people fail the realize what EVE is about before joining. I see.... So what is EVE really about? Is it about trying to find any smallest loophole and exploit to grief and take advantage of other players? Things like corp theft, spying, scaming, lying, cheating? Is that what is so great about EVE and is that why we all play it ????? Well quite frankly yes that is part of it. Obviously you only took the parts that suite your own agenda here but EVE definetly offers by far the most possibilities for players to be creative. You call them exploits again to further your own agenda when it¦s quite obvious that they aren¦t. Corp theft allowed by CCP, scamming also allowed, etc. And the funny thing is I haven¦t done any of those, so why do risk of those constantly affects my gameplay ? Well it makes it¦s lot more interesting because you never know what is gonna happen next and you need to be able to think, or you are gonna lose as has happened to you. I see, so a smart person could find a way out of high sec gank. What would that be, maybe use a helicopter next time I need some stuff from Jita market?
Vajak	Posted - 2007.09.08 09:17:00 - [266] Well couple ways: fit your industrial to be able to tank something (this may be sound like a obvious advice but eg. there are plenty of industrials flying around with nothing but cargo expanders), use contracts, fit for speed im sure you could make your indy to almost insta warp with right mods, use blockade runners, use non-transport ships when you dont even need to cargo space of one, divide your cargo in smaller pieces to minimize the risk, use scouts, travel in groups, use ecm, use the map, use stabs, train skills that give you more agi, speed, shield, armor, structure, etc.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.08 10:11:00 - [267] Edited by: Gamesguy on 08/09/2007 10:11:52 Speaking from experience as someone who makes isk by suicide ganking in highsec. 1. Don't be afk. That golden rule will save you from 95% of all gankers out there. I cannot catch a single non-afk hauler simply because most gankers consist of the main and his hauler alt. 2. Either use a super tanked transport or a nanoed blockade runner if you must afk. Despite what you might tank I and I'm sure other suicide gankers can and do suicide transport ships and blockade runners in highsec, you need a t2 fitted bs with a high alpha strike/dps to do it, but t2 is cheap nowadays. However, a plated/eanm fitted transport ship(as opposed to one fitted with cargo expanders) is virtually impossible to suicide without a rather large force, and OD+nano blockade runners present a very short timeframe in which they are vulnerable, perhaps not long enough to lock+scan(I know I've missed a few this way, by the time I made a scan and calcualted the rough value of the cargo its too late).
Devious	Posted - 2007.09.08 11:15:00 - [268] Bottom line is. if ccp are allowing players to combat in high security while being able to withstand concord and sentry gun fire then put concord back to destructable status as this is how eve was originally, its now apparent with all these rigs and boosters players can negate concord for a short time and kill whatever they want to including tanked BS and freighters. So if ccp disagree with concord being killable then remove the ability to pvp in high sec, simple.
MTX PT New European Regiment Pax Atlantis	Posted - 2007.09.08 12:11:00 - [269] I'm not against suicidal gangs, if that is the role play of that chars, in eve does not exist 100% safe places besides stations. But I don't agree with disposable suicidal chars. I live in 0.0 and when I need some fits I use a char to go to Jita and buy the stuff and bring it for transportation, one of this trips, in uedema one brutix attack and destroy the frig for a lousy and cheap T2 fits, peanuts in value. The char used for the attack have 18 days, and took 15s to take out the frigate, seems a lot. With the increase of skills for the new players, we had a increase of suicidal chars, and that is being out of control, I know friends that had the same problem.
Adhar Khorin Amarr Portsmouth Defense Industries	Posted - 2007.09.08 12:43:00 - [270] Originally by: Devious ...with all these rigs and boosters players can negate concord for a short time and kill whatever they want to including tanked BS and freighters... That's an interesting point; should CONCORD's damage output be rebalanced in the wake of the increased capabilities from the past few releases? It wouldn't make Hi-Sec "safe", but it would shift the risk/reward balance point toward the hauling community. That is, if CONCORD popped you faster, then you'd need more friends to take a ship down, and that ship would have to be carrying more valuable cargo to make it worth your while. Total safety? No. Rebalanced to take into consideration the increased abilities of highly-experienced and coordinated gangs of pirates? Perhaps. I do think that a gang of 8 battleships probably shouldn't be able to take out a Freighter over the span of 8-10 minutes without losing to CONCORD, though. A gang of 12? 16? Meh, ok. That requires more coordination, and EVE is a group game, after all.
hhdfhfghfg	Posted - 2007.09.08 14:52:00 - [271] Edited by: hhdfhfghfg on 08/09/2007 14:54:41 Originally by: Fanjita Originally by: RFwills Im liking the proactive points people have been making to help address the problem. I really appreciate it. Hopefully this gets recognized and thought on by the engineers of this fabulous game. It has been and it better not change its the only thing that makes eve worth playing the fact that if you undock your at risk if you dont like it dont play eve its simple maybe a game like hello kitty world would be more suitable for you and yes if every gate in hi sec had suicide gankers on it i would still play eve. actually I here hello kitty online now has hardcore gankers, theres no safe place in gaming anymore on another note, perhaps this is not an exploit, but a balance issue perhaps the ships dont have high enough numbers in their main tank category? I would also agree with the person who said if you carry 2 bil isk worth of stuff in a hold get an escort, but if you get "surprise sexed" by T2 suicide squad, that escort isnt going to do you any good anyway.. I always thought freighters and haulers should have high armor, if you think about it, in real world instead of gankfest land, having little to no weaponry as a trader would DEMAND that you have armor surpassing even actual warships. also, I've said this before, work on your tank. get those resists and hps up. and the most useful piece of advice which has been said over and over, dont fly anything you cant afford to lose. this includes anything in the hull. tell your friend this, and say that if he hauls half of what he did before, some other noob will take his place as the suicide squad *****, therefore leaving him free to run and make the moneys. since cargo expanders go on the low slots, try shield extenders, boosters, rechargers, hardeners, etc. making yourself a big target and then not protecting yourself is just asking for it, dont you think?
Admiral Black The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.09.08 20:34:00 - [272] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Vajak Edited by: Vajak on 08/09/2007 08:38:02 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 08/09/2007 08:16:04 Originally by: Vajak Originally by: Ridley Scot I lost 400 mil in materials and my transport ship to two suicide Myrmidons in high sec today. I filled the petition and I'm sure I will get a reply that its ok to do that. I will do two things: 1. Use 10 bil ISK I earned for two years I'm playing EVE to buy battleships and smartbomb everyone around Jita, I'll try and target noobs in small ships whenever possibile (well its ok to do it so why not?) 2. When all the ISK is gone I will cancel all 3 of my accounts until they decide to do something about this (if you want my stuff you cant have it because I will spend it to buy battleships and smartbombs) The funny part is that people like you fail to grasp the fact that the majority of EVE players are here because of the freedom this game offers. Does this game have the best PVE out there ? definetly not. Does this game have the most unforgiving PVP out there ? Yes and thats what keeps EVE growing. CCP has found their niche and isn¦t going to change that because people fail the realize what EVE is about before joining. I see.... So what is EVE really about? Is it about trying to find any smallest loophole and exploit to grief and take advantage of other players? Things like corp theft, spying, scaming, lying, cheating? Is that what is so great about EVE and is that why we all play it ????? Well quite frankly yes that is part of it. Obviously you only took the parts that suite your own agenda here but EVE definetly offers by far the most possibilities for players to be creative. You call them exploits again to further your own agenda when it¦s quite obvious that they aren¦t. Corp theft allowed by CCP, scamming also allowed, etc. And the funny thing is I haven¦t done any of those, so why do risk of those constantly affects my gameplay ? Well it makes it¦s lot more interesting because you never know what is gonna happen next and you need to be able to think, or you are gonna lose as has happened to you. I see, so a smart person could find a way out of high sec gank. What would that be, maybe use a helicopter next time I need some stuff from Jita market? Shield extenders and damage control.. or hey.. how about jsut not moving quite so much through an area known for suicide gankers. Take two trips? Use a f'ing scout as already suggested three hundred times? Or hey, you can just come on the forums and whine about it and whine about it and make threats at ccp and at random noobs untill someone says something to make you feel better?
hhdfhfghfg	Posted - 2007.09.08 21:30:00 - [273] Edited by: hhdfhfghfg on 08/09/2007 21:30:31 I just had a revolutionary idea. death penalty. if they attack your ship they get theirs destroyed by concord. makes sense. but how qabout if they actually kill your ship or involved in the group that kills it, and they register any hits on the ship helping that group which is ganking the victim, you get podded. how's losing implants a costly solution to solve this mass ganking once and for all?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.08 21:42:00 - [274] Quote: That's an interesting point; should CONCORD's damage output be rebalanced in the wake of the increased capabilities from the past few releases? It wouldn't make Hi-Sec "safe", but it would shift the risk/reward balance point toward the hauling community. That is, if CONCORD popped you faster, then you'd need more friends to take a ship down, and that ship would have to be carrying more valuable cargo to make it worth your while. Total safety? No. Rebalanced to take into consideration the increased abilities of highly-experienced and coordinated gangs of pirates? Perhaps. I do think that a gang of 8 battleships probably shouldn't be able to take out a Freighter over the span of 8-10 minutes without losing to CONCORD, though. A gang of 12? 16? Meh, ok. That requires more coordination, and EVE is a group game, after all. You know absolutely nothing about suicide ganking and neither does the person above you. Concord shows up about 20 seconds after aggression in a 0.5 system, and a group of concord ships spawn for each aggresor(so if you have 20 friends, 20 groups of concord will spawn). Once they show, every single aggressor is instantly jammed and even a super plated battleship will die in 4 seconds flat. There is no "tanking concord", they show up, you die instantly, and they show up pretty damn quickly. Freighter ganks are possible due to lone freighters with no logistics support. You use 15-20 extremely high dps battleships(like t2 neutron hyperions) and in that 20 seconds before concord shows you kill your mark.
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.08 22:30:00 - [275] Wouldnt it make sense that if concord makes an enforcement action,that all wreckage,cargo etc etc...becomes property of concord....until such time as the victim of the perpetrators can return to claim their stuff,and well in a bureaucracy paper work sometimes gets "shuffled",the victim would be able to claim all of the loot from the wrecks,perps included,and of course..no insurance could be awarded for a ship being invloved in a criminal act..... So the act itself is still doable...but would it really be worth it then...?
Bach Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.09.08 22:44:00 - [276] Originally by: Giatshi Wouldnt it make sense that if concord makes an enforcement action,that all wreckage,cargo etc etc...becomes property of concord....until such time as the victim of the perpetrators can return to claim their stuff,and well in a bureaucracy paper work sometimes gets "shuffled",the victim would be able to claim all of the loot from the wrecks,perps included,and of course..no insurance could be awarded for a ship being invloved in a criminal act..... So the act itself is still doable...but would it really be worth it then...? You make an interesting point. High sec gank = taking about 2 weeks to build a BC character you don't give a damn about. Blowing up scanned haulers in the 20 seconds before concord blows up your crap ship and THEN concord pays you the insurance so the costs are low. Not alot of skill involved or even understanding anything beyond the game mechanics of concords limitations. However it probably can net 1 bil isk an hour. This is the part I find hillarious. Last time I got a ticket for a car accident the police didn't turn around and pay my insurance. In fact I got sued. The reality is the model used for Concrod is pretty poor. If the police rescue a man from a mugger. They don't turn around and let the mugger's girl friend pick up the purse and walk away. Again the model for concord could be better. The only thing that makes this 1 bil isk profitable is the fact concord has a 20 sec response time, concord pays the insurance and concord does nothing about the can sitting at the gate. Its not an explouit its just a poor game mechanic model for what supposed to represent a policing force. My recommendation - stop bithcing about it. Train one of your alts to do it or use your main. Pick a weekend and go suicide some junk ships and make a billion isk. Then return to 0.0 NPC hunt for awhile till concord like you again. Takes a few weeks but hey a billion isk lasts more than a few weeks. Don't *****, go DO THIS AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. Till the game modeling gets more realistic. Jump on that gravy train before its gone.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.08 22:47:00 - [277] As long as its easy to make profit this way it will be done. As a matter of fact, more and more people will do it, its easy ISK so why not? This is really something that only CCP could and should fix, make sure you dont profit from high sec ganks and it will stop being an issue. But I guess it will take some time, like it was with cheap wardecs, CCP will do something about it only after many, many people lose stuff and complain about it, cancel accounts etc etc.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.08 23:00:00 - [278] Edited by: xOm3gAx on 08/09/2007 23:06:23 Originally by: Knerf with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all. Actually it was 4 or so years ago it was in yulai and it was zombie corp. Many of them did get banned over it but ONLY because they were exploiting a game mechanic to stay alive and not die by concords hand. It is only an exploit when you dont die after firing on or killing someone. Theres actually a vid of it posted on eve somewhere... ha here it is Zombie Takes Yulai CCP has stated before and im sure they will again that no space is safe and was never meant to be. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.08 23:13:00 - [279] Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 08/09/2007 23:06:23 Originally by: Knerf with all this empire ganking going on and all the *****ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all. Actually it was 4 or so years ago it was in yulai and it was zombie corp. Many of them did get banned over it but ONLY because they were exploiting a game mechanic to stay alive and not die by concords hand. It is only an exploit when you dont die after firing on or killing someone. Theres actually a vid of it posted on eve somewhere... ha here it is Zombie Takes Yulai CCP has stated before and im sure they will again that no space is safe and was never meant to be. It is not about space being safe or not, its about the loophole where you gain more then you lose from pirating in high sec after you loot the can with another alt and get insurance money.
chiefyuk Amarr toxicology	Posted - 2007.09.08 23:57:00 - [280] I heard smart people dont autopilot 2bil worth of **** thought high sec in a t1 hauler... ------------------------------------------------ You can kill the protester but you cant kill the protest ------------------------------------------------
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.09 00:44:00 - [281] Originally by: Bach Originally by: Giatshi Wouldnt it make sense that if concord makes an enforcement action,that all wreckage,cargo etc etc...becomes property of concord....until such time as the victim of the perpetrators can return to claim their stuff,and well in a bureaucracy paper work sometimes gets "shuffled",the victim would be able to claim all of the loot from the wrecks,perps included,and of course..no insurance could be awarded for a ship being invloved in a criminal act..... So the act itself is still doable...but would it really be worth it then...? You make an interesting point. High sec gank = taking about 2 weeks to build a BC character you don't give a damn about. Blowing up scanned haulers in the 20 seconds before concord blows up your crap ship and THEN concord pays you the insurance so the costs are low. Not alot of skill involved or even understanding anything beyond the game mechanics of concords limitations. However it probably can net 1 bil isk an hour. This is the part I find hillarious. Last time I got a ticket for a car accident the police didn't turn around and pay my insurance. In fact I got sued. The reality is the model used for Concrod is pretty poor. If the police rescue a man from a mugger. They don't turn around and let the mugger's girl friend pick up the purse and walk away. Again the model for concord could be better. The only thing that makes this 1 bil isk profitable is the fact concord has a 20 sec response time, concord pays the insurance and concord does nothing about the can sitting at the gate. Its not an explouit its just a poor game mechanic model for what supposed to represent a policing force. My recommendation - stop bithcing about it. Train one of your alts to do it or use your main. Pick a weekend and go suicide some junk ships and make a billion isk. Then return to 0.0 NPC hunt for awhile till concord like you again. Takes a few weeks but hey a billion isk lasts more than a few weeks. Don't *****, go DO THIS AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. Till the game modeling gets more realistic. Jump on that gravy train before its gone. If we're doing real life analogies, then 0.5 systems would be like the back alleys of worse neightborhoods, lowsec is like Iraq, and 0.0 would be the surface of the moon. Hundreds of people would get mugged every month and the cops would catch maybe 10%, and never ever would they show up 20 seconds after a crime has been commited. Even in 1.0 systems(rich hoods with their own security), the security/cops dont show up 20 seconds after I kill someone, and not to mention the cops wouldn't "I-WIN" buttons. You'd be able to duke it out with the police and possibly escape. If you want realism, and the instant you enter combat with any ship no insurance company in the world would insure you, and if you're hauling millions of dollars worth of merchandise, you'd better be using an armored truck(heavilly tanked transport ship) with armed escorts.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 02:21:00 - [282] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 08/09/2007 23:06:23 Originally by: Knerf with all this empire ganking going on and all the ***ing about it and people saying this is not an exploit so on and so forth, look back a couple years to an incident in oursealeaut (sp even close?) where a member of the PA was suiciding people with smartbombing geddons, he did this for about a day then CCP said he either stops or he gets banned.... if it was illegal then why not now, why the change in position now, where is the consistancy. not that im opposed to the suicide ganking or pro, just like to see the same result for the same actions, that is all. Actually it was 4 or so years ago it was in yulai and it was zombie corp. Many of them did get banned over it but ONLY because they were exploiting a game mechanic to stay alive and not die by concords hand. It is only an exploit when you dont die after firing on or killing someone. Theres actually a vid of it posted on eve somewhere... ha here it is Zombie Takes Yulai CCP has stated before and im sure they will again that no space is safe and was never meant to be. It is not about space being safe or not, its about the loophole where you gain more then you lose from pirating in high sec after you loot the can with another alt and get insurance money. First read this which is part of the original post where it talks about the point of high sec is being safe space. As for the loophole tell me whats dif between high sec and low sec piracy? Concord that is all and concord is ONLY there to kill those who kill you not to protect you. So that being the case your argument is flawed as concord was only put into place to prevent high sec take overs NOT prevent combat. And because of that your entire argument is flawed. Originally by:** RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14 (Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone) Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now. A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
hhdfhfghfg	Posted - 2007.09.09 03:15:00 - [283] Originally by: hhdfhfghfg Edited by: hhdfhfghfg on 08/09/2007 21:46:22 I just had a revolutionary idea. death penalty. if they attack your ship they get theirs destroyed by concord. makes sense. but how qabout if they actually kill your ship or involved in the group that kills it, and they register any hits on the ship helping that group which is ganking the victim, they get podded. how's losing implants a costly solution to solve this mass ganking once and for all? ganking in this form in highsec shows you have knowledge, lots of power, and therefore time played, and a dedication to illegal ativity. Concord should definitely and most realistically deal with this by swift and deadly punishment, and this makes it possible. its like concord are pirate carebears, that is what is wtf wrong here. I think this guy is onto something.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 03:24:00 - [284] Quite clearly the problem is people hauling solo Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 03:27:00 - [285] Originally by: hhdfhfghfg Originally by: hhdfhfghfg Faggery daggery doo I'm ghey you****got I can't believe you just quoted yourself Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
hhdfhfghfg	Posted - 2007.09.09 03:54:00 - [286] someone has to be cooler than you, it might as well be me. oh yeah, theres a reason for edit post, forum noob.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 04:18:00 - [287] Originally by: hhdfhfghfg someone has to be cooler than you, it might as well be me. oh yeah, theres a reason for edit post, forum noob. post count +1, forum pile of sticks Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
Farscape Hw Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 04:59:00 - [288] anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:02:00 - [289] Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Sounds good to me, wouldn't you agree Captian Internet? ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:29:00 - [290] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Sounds good to me, wouldn't you agree Captian Internet? My Ackbar sense is tingling Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:29:00 - [291] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:36:38 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:35:52 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:30:13 Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Risk versus reward? Well some hypocrit you are... What is the real risk you and your frineds are taking to do this? Few tech 1 fitted and fully insured Mymidons or Domis? And what kind of reward are you getting for ganking haulers in empire hm? As for the fact you call youself "experienced" player... It must take a lot of skill to exploit game design flaw to gank a solo hauler I guess... Do you really think that what you do is so special and others cant do it? Ofcourse they could, its just that not everyone is ready to go so low and abuse the game mechanics and other players in this game. You and your frineds have found a loophole in the game, and now you are exploiting the flaw to gain advantage and get some easy ISK. Nothing new though, other then the fact that CCP is refusing to recognize it until they fix it. The same thing they did with super fast battleships, Privateers wardeccing half of EVE population etc etc. People like you are easy to find in just about every Internet game, you are looking for an easy way to take unfair advantage of other players, and it doesnt matter what that might be as long as you dont get banned. So dont call yourself experianced player, people with real skill dont need tricks to win.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:40:00 - [292] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:36:38 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:35:52 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:30:13 Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Risk versus reward? Well some hypocrit you are... What is the real risk you and your frineds are taking to do this? Few tech 1 fitted and fully insured Mymidons or Domis? And what kind of reward are you getting for ganking haulers in empire hm? As for the fact you call youself "experienced" player... It must take a lot of skill to exploit game design flaw to gank a solo hauler I guess... Do you really think that what you do is so special and others cant do it? Ofcourse they could, its just that not everyone is ready to go so low and abuse the game mechanics and other players in this game. You and your frineds have found a loophole in the game, and now you are exploiting the flaw to gain advantage and get some easy ISK. Nothing new though, other then the fact that CCP is refusing to recognize it until they fix it. The same thing they did with super fast battleships, Privateers wardeccing half of EVE population etc etc. People like you are easy to find in just about every Internet game, you are looking for an easy way to take unfair advantage of other players, and it doesnt matter what that might be as long as you dont get banned. So dont call yourself experianced player, people with real skill dont need tricks to win. The guy you quoted have far more "real skill" than you ever will. Perhaps you'd like to meet him in 0.0 someday? Snigg are excellent pvpers. As for this "loophole", ccp says its not a loophole and INTENTIONAL. Its in fact a game design. Why do you think concord have different response times in 1.0 as compared to 0.5? Thats why sec status matters even in highsec. Concord responds in like 4 seconds in 1.0 but 20+ seconds in 0.5 for a reason.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:48:00 - [293] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:36:38 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:35:52 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:30:13 Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Risk versus reward? Well some hypocrit you are... What is the real risk you and your frineds are taking to do this? Few tech 1 fitted and fully insured Mymidons or Domis? And what kind of reward are you getting for ganking haulers in empire hm? As for the fact you call youself "experienced" player... It must take a lot of skill to exploit game design flaw to gank a solo hauler I guess... Do you really think that what you do is so special and others cant do it? Ofcourse they could, its just that not everyone is ready to go so low and abuse the game mechanics and other players in this game. You and your frineds have found a loophole in the game, and now you are exploiting the flaw to gain advantage and get some easy ISK. Nothing new though, other then the fact that CCP is refusing to recognize it until they fix it. The same thing they did with super fast battleships, Privateers wardeccing half of EVE population etc etc. People like you are easy to find in just about every Internet game, you are looking for an easy way to take unfair advantage of other players, and it doesnt matter what that might be as long as you dont get banned. So dont call yourself experianced player, people with real skill dont need tricks to win. The guy you quoted have far more "real skill" than you ever will. Perhaps you'd like to meet him in 0.0 someday? Snigg are excellent pvpers. As for this "loophole", ccp says its not a loophole and INTENTIONAL. Its in fact a game design. Why do you think concord have different response times in 1.0 as compared to 0.5? Thats why sec status matters even in highsec. Concord responds in like 4 seconds in 1.0 but 20+ seconds in 0.5 for a reason. 1. He is not a Snigg 2. How do you know I dont kill Snigg with some of my other characters? 3. Nothing was ever broken if you ask CCP. They never fix anything until enough people tell them to do so. 4. I dont care if Concord shows up in 5, 10 or 20 seconds and I dont care if you can kill someone in high sec or not. Change the game mechanics so that high sec ganking is not an easy way of collecting huge amounts of ISK with no risk whatsoever.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:53:00 - [294] Originally by: Ridley Scot 1. He is not a Snigg Pandemic Legion, whatever. Quote: 2. How do you know I dont kill Snigg with some of my other characters? Because you haven't posted with your main and you sound like the typical empire carebear who knows nothing about pvp and spout bull** about "real skill" and such. Quote:** 3. Nothing was ever broken if you ask CCP. They never fix anything until enough people tell them to do so. 4. I dont care if Concord shows up in 5, 10 or 20 seconds and I dont care if you can kill someone in high sec or not. Change the game mechanics so that high sec ganking is not an easy way of collecting huge amounts of ISK with no risk whatsoever. Too bad you hold no sway at ccp, keep whining though, and we'll just keep laughing at you. Its trivial to protect yourself in highsec.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:54:00 - [295] Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:56:00 - [296] best GIF EVER 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Farscape Hw Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 06:17:00 - [297] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:49:53 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:36:38 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:35:52 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:30:13 Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Risk versus reward? Well some hypocrit you are... What is the real risk you and your frineds are taking to do this? Few tech 1 fitted and fully insured Mymidons or Domis? And what kind of reward are you getting for ganking haulers in empire hm? As for the fact you call youself "experienced" player... It must take a lot of skill to exploit game design flaw to gank a solo hauler I guess... Do you really think that what you do is so special and others cant do it? Ofcourse they could, its just that not everyone is ready to go so low and abuse the game mechanics and other players in this game. You and your friends have found a loophole in the game, and now you are exploiting the flaw to gain advantage and get some easy ISK. Nothing new though, other then the fact that CCP is refusing to recognize it until they fix it. The same thing they did with super fast battleships, Privateers wardeccing half of EVE population etc etc. People like you are easy to find in just about every Internet game, you are looking for an easy way to take unfair advantage of other players, and it doesnt matter what that might be as long as you dont get banned. So dont call yourself experianced player, people with real skill dont need tricks to win. lets see, i kill you and you got killrights on me. i go to buy my expensive mods and have to worry about you killing me for 1 month. i also can only do it every now and then since my sec status gets so low i have to go fix it for months after only a couple of days suiciding. ccp have said before that killing in high sec is intentional game mechanics and thats the whole point of lower high security system. you suggesting that you might have some other char that fights me in 0.0 only makes you look like an alt troll having no place stating your opinion in this forum. its ppl like you who come into a game years after other have played it just the way it is and try to whine to the developers untill you get its mechanics changed for your benifit. you should seriously go play world of warcraft if you want to play a carebear consensual only combat mmorpg.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.09 06:34:00 - [298] Originally by: Farscape Hw lets see, i kill you and you got killrights on me. i go to buy my expensive mods and have to worry about you killing me for 1 month. i also can only do it every now and then since my sec status gets so low i have to go fix it for months after only a couple of days suiciding. Heh, I'm sure that the only character you have and you will use is the same one to go buy stuff you need AND gank unsuspecting pilots Please, we all know how its done. As for fixing sec status, its actually quit easy, takes only a few days of dedicating ratting in 0.0 to fix even the most negative sec status and I'm sure you know that too. Regarding the rest of your post, I have nothing to say because its all insults and trash talking and I really dont want to derail this thread in that direction.
SengH Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 06:44:00 - [299] Originally by: Ridley Scot Heh, I'm sure that the only character you have and you will use is the same one to go buy stuff you need AND gank unsuspecting pilots Please, we all know how its done. As for fixing sec status, its actually quit easy, takes only a few days of dedicating ratting in 0.0 to fix even the most negative sec status and I'm sure you know that too. Regarding the rest of your post, I have nothing to say because its all insults and trash talking and I really dont want to derail this thread in that direction. Then you use your brain and find out his alt using the usual methods of observation. Then gank his fully loaded noob corp freighter alt while in empire with your friends(see Outbreak ganking a BOB alt freighter in empire). For christs sakes just cus were in PL doesnt make us Snigg. We were in the same alliance as ATUK too, does that make us BOB now that the .5. is a BOB alt alliance? Furthermore we're far older than Snigg plus we have our own chronicle too which is more than any of your corps can say.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 06:45:00 - [300] Originally by: Ridley Scot As for fixing sec status, its actually quit easy, takes only a few days of dedicating ratting in 0.0 to fix even the most negative sec status and I'm sure you know that too. You know not the torture that it is Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
Farscape Hw Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 07:07:00 - [301] its no secret who my alt is. go have a look at his sec status for yourself, Shamis Orzoz
Cass Daystar	Posted - 2007.09.09 08:29:00 - [302] Having read the OP, but not the intervening posts, my suggestion is this: Make any cans/wrecks that are dropped from a ship aggressed in highsec and outside the Yulai convention (ie: CONCORD killed the suicide-gankers) be the PROPERTY of the VICTIM, not the killers! IF CONCORD is going to go to the trouble to kill the gankers then why does it make sense for them to legitimize the ownership of the wrecks they caused? How does this make sense? Make the ownership of the wrecks belong to the victim in a suicide ganking, or any death that would have involved CONCORD. How does this prevent suicide ganking? Well, CONCORD hangs around at the site of the wreck until it despawns. Any attempt by a third party (including the killers themselves in new ships) to access the wrecks will be immediately viewed as a criminal action and will result in another CONCORDING. In addition to this, remove any insurance payouts for CONCORDING. Don't reward criminal behavior. Finally, I think this could be taken one step further. If a suicide gank squad attacks a player, and they get CONCORDED, make THEIR wrecks the property of the VICTIM in the attack. This will REALLY discourage suicide gank squads.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.09 08:36:00 - [303] Originally by: Cass Daystar Having read the OP, but not the intervening posts, my suggestion is this: Make any cans/wrecks that are dropped from a ship aggressed in highsec and outside the Yulai convention (ie: CONCORD killed the suicide-gankers) be the PROPERTY of the VICTIM, not the killers! IF CONCORD is going to go to the trouble to kill the gankers then why does it make sense for them to legitimize the ownership of the wrecks they caused? How does this make sense? Make the ownership of the wrecks belong to the victim in a suicide ganking, or any death that would have involved CONCORD. How does this prevent suicide ganking? Well, CONCORD hangs around at the site of the wreck until it despawns. Any attempt by a third party (including the killers themselves in new ships) to access the wrecks will be immediately viewed as a criminal action and will result in another CONCORDING. In addition to this, remove any insurance payouts for CONCORDING. Don't reward criminal behavior. Finally, I think this could be taken one step further. If a suicide gank squad attacks a player, and they get CONCORDED, make THEIR wrecks the property of the VICTIM in the attack. This will REALLY discourage suicide gank squads. I think kill rights were CCP's concession on the suicide kill front, people have been asking for negated insurance off of concord death for ages now and CCP is disinterested. As far as flagged wrecks, so what? If I aggress first that means I'll anticipate ship destruction and have my corpmate loot both wrecks and be gone. No way you'll dock, grab a ship in time and get back to your wreck in time to save any of your gear (barring a freighter) I suppose. What's the flag duration on theft in that case--15 min for the offender's corp? ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
Falkus Windowmaker	Posted - 2007.09.09 09:35:00 - [304] Edited by: Falkus Windowmaker on 09/09/2007 09:42:10 Originally by: Billy Sastard I did not read all the replys, nor the full OP. However I just have to comment on one thing stated in that OP... "Concord is here to protect the innocent".... WRONG.. Concord is here to punish the guilty. As long as they aggressors get their punishment, Concord is happy and has done their job as they see it. The offenders are not really punished though. Losing a disposable suicide ship is not punishment at all. Especially since they end up keeping what they were going after. In real life if you rob a bank and the cops show up and there is a shoot out the odds of you running away with the money you stole or coming back to the scene of the crime to retrieve your stolen goods equals close to none. The odds of your friends coming back and picking up any cash you dropped while robbing a bank are also close to known. The same should happen in EVE. If Concord shows up and there is a fight your odds and that of your buddies of coming back and looting stuff should be close to none in hi sec space unless you develop a plan to take on or distract Concord while they hover around the scene of the crime. Wreckage, and can rights should go to the victim and your sec rating should drop for engaging in hostile acts in hi sec space.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.09 11:31:00 - [305] No risk my ass. I just lost 2 t2 fitted geddons for no gain. First occator I ganked had all the expensive loot pop, and the 2nd was a nano crane that popped the mwd and manage to jump before I could kill it(although I probably shouldntve tried to engage when it was only like 6k off the gate).
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.09 11:35:00 - [306] Originally by: Gamesguy No risk my ass. I just lost 2 t2 fitted geddons for no gain. First occator I ganked had all the expensive loot pop, and the 2nd was a nano crane that popped the mwd and manage to jump before I could kill it(although I probably shouldntve tried to engage when it was only like 6k off the gate). The risk vs reward for high sec gankers are borked. Apparently it lies in the best of your interests not to admit this.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.09 11:38:00 - [307] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Gamesguy No risk my ass. I just lost 2 t2 fitted geddons for no gain. First occator I ganked had all the expensive loot pop, and the 2nd was a nano crane that popped the mwd and manage to jump before I could kill it(although I probably shouldntve tried to engage when it was only like 6k off the gate). The risk vs reward for high sec gankers are borked. Apparently it lies in the best of your interests not to admit this. Thats some convincing argument right there.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.09 11:47:00 - [308] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Gamesguy No risk my ass. I just lost 2 t2 fitted geddons for no gain. First occator I ganked had all the expensive loot pop, and the 2nd was a nano crane that popped the mwd and manage to jump before I could kill it(although I probably shouldntve tried to engage when it was only like 6k off the gate). The risk vs reward for high sec gankers are borked. Apparently it lies in the best of your interests not to admit this. Thats some convincing argument right there. "OMG I fitted a trillion NOSes on my ibis and still lost, NOS is fine" "OMGZOrZ my battleship was doing 7km/s but i got caught by a huginn, nanoBS are fine" ôA couple of combatfitted haulers killed my canflipping cruiser, OMG they are overpoweredö I couldn't care less if you tried to gank a hundred haulers without success. It is pretty obvious that the risk vs reward for high sec gankers are borked. Your personal failed attempts hold little value in regards of a valid argument.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 12:45:00 - [309] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:49:53 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 09/09/2007 05:30:13 Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Risk versus reward? Well some hypocrit you are... What is the real risk you and your frineds are taking to do this? Few tech 1 fitted and fully insured Mymidons or Domis? And what kind of reward are you getting for ganking haulers in empire hm? As for the fact you call youself "experienced" player... It must take a lot of skill to exploit game design flaw to gank a solo hauler I guess... Do you really think that what you do is so special and others cant do it? Ofcourse they could, its just that not everyone is ready to go so low and abuse the game mechanics and other players in this game. You and your friends have found a loophole in the game, and now you are exploiting the flaw to gain advantage and get some easy ISK. Nothing new though, other then the fact that CCP is refusing to recognize it until they fix it. The same thing they did with super fast battleships, Privateers wardeccing half of EVE population etc etc. People like you are easy to find in just about every Internet game, you are looking for an easy way to take unfair advantage of other players, and it doesnt matter what that might be as long as you dont get banned. So dont call yourself experianced player, people with real skill dont need tricks to win. I dont see whats so hypocritical about it. It takes far more skill (and balls) to attack someone in high sec then it does in any other security. Reason being is because you WILL lose your ship. You also have to make sure your kitted well enough that u can kill them before concord kills you... eg: 5 seconds or less... Its nearly impossible to do with a drone boat except maybe the myrm but only because it can outlast a domi but a small measure in terms of passive tankability.. though those tanks are not cheap..Tech 1 fitted ships is the way to go yes but in all reality you do need some t2 / named gear to make the job sure fire. Again where is the loop hole you keep arguing it but when someone like myself in a prior post shows a valid argument against your "point" you take your argument to others this in its self shows you have no idea what your talking about. Attacking someone in high sec is not a loop hole its a game mechanic and if the VICTIM does not fly safe then they will die eventually by someones hands. You can easily avoid being ganked in high sec using either a frieghter (only those willing to use 10-13 decent kitted BS will drop one before the concord gank) or a tanked bc / bs seeing as frigs and haulers can't tank and even a poorly kitted gank cruiser will drop them with decent skills. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Ravenal The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.09 13:03:00 - [310] Originally by: Grath Telkin "PvP in EVE is consentual(sp), you agree to it when you log in" this is not your standard MMO, here there be monsters :D - pure gold .
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.09 13:08:00 - [311] C'mon guys. The problem is not that high sec ganking can take place. The problem is that a high sec ganking has no risk that is even near the reward-level because the blockade is protected by CONCORD. Anyone that would have wanted to blow them away because their behaviour sux cannot do so. That is broken game mechanics imo. And you guys call it PvP? What you're doing is mining haulers. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 14:45:00 - [312] Edited by: Lorde Falcao on 09/09/2007 14:46:37 Originally by: Needo C'mon guys. The problem is not that high sec ganking can take place. The problem is that a high sec ganking has no risk that is even near the reward-level because the blockade is protected by CONCORD. Anyone that would have wanted to blow them away because their behaviour sux cannot do so. That is broken game mechanics imo. And you guys call it PvP? What you're doing is mining haulers. You act as though some idiot loading, say, a full pithi set into his shuttle is somehow CCP's fault, like it's on-par with a bugged complex. The game is a sandbox - people can do what they want, as long as it isn't an exploit. And shooting people in high-sec is not an exploit. Why would there even be different levels security space it was? Everything should be 1.0, .1, and 0.0 if that were the case. This is not something requires CCP to intervene. People just need to stop loading expensive stuff into T1 haulers, newbie ships, and shuttles. Or not autopilot. Or use a scout. If people moved their expensive stuff in a plated battleship, 99% of the time it would get where it was going. But people are lazy. They want to do the absolute minimum amount of work possible, so they load their expensive mods into a cheap/fast ship and put it on auto-pilot so they don't have to do ANYTHING. Why don't you actually try blowing up a ship in empire before you talk about how much skill it requires? Try blowing up a fully extended rook. It may not be rocket science, but we've underestimated the strength of several ships and let them get away, and lost a bunch of BCs and battleships because of it. But again, this is not something CCP needs to "fix". People just need to stop putting expensive stuff into paper-thin ships, or not use auto-pilot, or use a scout, or get an escort. There are plenty of ways to counter empire gankers, but it isn't CCP's job to come up with and enact those counter-measures because you are lazy.
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.09 15:13:00 - [313] Quote: You act as though some idiot loading, say, a full pithi set into his shuttle is somehow CCP's fault, like it's on-par with a bugged complex. The game is a sandbox - people can do what they want, as long as it isn't an exploit. And shooting people in high-sec is not an exploit. Why would there even be different levels security space it was? Everything should be 1.0, .1, and 0.0 if that were the case. This is not something requires CCP to intervene. People just need to stop loading expensive stuff into T1 haulers, newbie ships, and shuttles. Or not autopilot. Or use a scout. If people moved their expensive stuff in a plated battleship, 99% of the time it would get where it was going. But people are lazy. They want to do the absolute minimum amount of work possible, so they load their expensive mods into a cheap/fast ship and put it on auto-pilot so they don't have to do ANYTHING. Why don't you actually try blowing up a ship in empire before you talk about how much skill it requires? Try blowing up a fully extended rook. It may not be rocket science, but we've underestimated the strength of several ships and let them get away, and lost a bunch of BCs and battleships because of it. But again, this is not something CCP needs to "fix". People just need to stop putting expensive stuff into paper-thin ships, or not use auto-pilot, or use a scout, or get an escort. There are plenty of ways to counter empire gankers, but it isn't CCP's job to come up with and enact those counter-measures because you are lazy. Allow this idiot to ask you if you think CCP designed CONCORD to protect the high sec gankers from everyone that would like to get rid of them? Do you also think that high sec was designed to give gankers a secure environment to do their ganking in? If you read my post you would have noticed that I do not complain about haulers being killable in secure space. What is broken game mechanics is that high sec in this case means high sec for the gankers only and low sec for the traders. Ps. I own a hauler but I did not use it in a long time. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 16:51:00 - [314] Originally by: Needo Allow this idiot to ask you if you think CCP designed CONCORD to protect the high sec gankers from everyone that would like to get rid of them? Do you also think that high sec was designed to give gankers a secure environment to do their ganking in? If you read my post you would have noticed that I do not complain about haulers being killable in secure space. What is broken game mechanics is that high sec in this case means high sec for the gankers only and low sec for the traders. Ps. I own a hauler but I did not use it in a long time. I'm afraid I don't understand how CONCORD protects us. Anyone I've blown up has killrights on me for a month, and I'm usually in one of two places if they want to come after me. Your post isn't very clear at all, quite frankly, and your arguement doesn't make sense. You also haven't addressed any of the points I made, but that's ok, I'll just take that as a concession that I'm right.
Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.09 16:58:00 - [315] Edited by: Lorde Falcao on 09/09/2007 16:59:29 edit: double post
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.09 17:02:00 - [316] Quote: I'm afraid I don't understand how CONCORD protects us. Anyone I've blown up has killrights on me for a month, and I'm usually in one of two places if they want to come after me. Your post isn't very clear at all, quite frankly, and your arguement doesn't make sense. You also haven't addressed any of the points I made, but that's ok, I'll just take that as a concession that I'm right. Try the same gank-setup in low sec and you'll see the difference. The broken thing is that the ganker has not "broken the law" before he killed anyone and noone can touch them even though everyone and their mothers know what they are doing. So, ganker is protected by high sec until the ganker has selected the target and choosed to leave protection. I.e. ganker has full control over whether the environment is secure or not secure, while the target is on constant not secure environment. Giving that piece of control to the ganker is what is the broken game mechanics. I have no problem with that you cannot run autopilot in secure space, thats just fine. However, the gankers now sit in such a sweet spot having full control that everyone is not playing on equal terms. I think it needs to be fixed somehow. Best way would be to give the ganker a much harder sec hit, then they cant do it so frequently. The other thing is to remove insurance, that also makes it too easy. That's my opinion atleast. With a potential reward of 2 bil you really should risk your neck all the time, not just when you choose to. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 17:17:00 - [317] Originally by: Needo However, the gankers now sit in such a sweet spot having full control that everyone is not playing on equal terms. Oh man did you mention fair fights This isn't the 1600's man Local Thread 107-b,War without a victor penalties,Navigation Shortcuts
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 18:37:00 - [318] Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 18:37:27 Originally by: Needo Quote: I'm afraid I don't understand how CONCORD protects us. Anyone I've blown up has killrights on me for a month, and I'm usually in one of two places if they want to come after me. Your post isn't very clear at all, quite frankly, and your arguement doesn't make sense. You also haven't addressed any of the points I made, but that's ok, I'll just take that as a concession that I'm right. Try the same gank-setup in low sec and you'll see the difference. The broken thing is that the ganker has not "broken the law" before he killed anyone and noone can touch them even though everyone and their mothers know what they are doing. So, ganker is protected by high sec until the ganker has selected the target and choosed to leave protection. I.e. ganker has full control over whether the environment is secure or not secure, while the target is on constant not secure environment. Giving that piece of control to the ganker is what is the broken game mechanics. I have no problem with that you cannot run autopilot in secure space, thats just fine. However, the gankers now sit in such a sweet spot having full control that everyone is not playing on equal terms. I think it needs to be fixed somehow. Best way would be to give the ganker a much harder sec hit, then they cant do it so frequently. The other thing is to remove insurance, that also makes it too easy. That's my opinion atleast. With a potential reward of 2 bil you really should risk your neck all the time, not just when you choose to. The gankers only have any control over the situation because they TAKE control the same control that the victims could easily take by flying ships that require more then its worth to destroy while using cargo containers in their hold to prevent people from scanning them thus making them far more secure and less of a target as you do not know if the cans are empty and many times they are. Also, gankers already take a HUGE sec hit .5 for agressing and another .5 for destroying said ship you can add 1.25 to that as well if they decide to pod you or do so accidently with smart bombs as this does happen on occasion. As it is for each "gank" if you have 0.0 sec status you are forced to move to a lower sec system unless you fix your status which is usually not worth the time. One more thing im all for insurance being removed FROM EVERYTHING. That should make piracy far more lucrative and cause many more ransoms to be paid. And on your final note of the potential reward of 2 bil... try reversing that with a potential loss of 2bil you would THINK that someone would be SMART enough to take precautions to prevent losing said 2bil. Which inherently increases said risk for the ganker thus causing them to second guess whether or not its really worth it since they may lose just as much to gain just a little. Eg: Losing 5 bs to gank a BS or super tanked bc is really not worth it after everything is said and done since insurance really doesnt give you 100% you need to subtract the cost of insurance first and then subtract the cost of all equipment used which usually cuts back the insurance to covering a mere 20-30mil if your lucky. Now multiply that by 5 and you get 100-150mil back at the cost of (using tier2 bs we'll say) 500mil in ships (after insurance). And the risk is definatly greater then the reward since there is no garuntee that you will get the loot or destroy your mark. That being said it takes alot of skill and practice (which inherently causes losses) to be able to successfully suicide gank a SMART target that does not make themselves and easy mark. Which may include using an escort to attack anyone who attacks you but i guess that's just to difficult for people who lack the brain power to think outside the box and can only stand to blame others and whine about things. Get a clue, get over it, and start thinking. It might save you a few bil. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 18:39:00 - [319] Almost forgot... there is no such thing as fair. Deal with what you got and adapt dont complain about it do something about it. Adapt or die. ^^ remember those words. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.09 19:03:00 - [320] I am not writing on behalf of myself, I have never been high sec ganked, nor will I most likely. I wrote that simply because the mechanics of high sec ganking is borked. That's it. Call everyone stupid all you like, it doesnt change a thing. It doesnt take any brains to gank, and it doesnt take much brains to avoid it, but that has nothing to do with it. The system can still be broken, and it is. The gankers are too safe while they are choosing their targets. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Phil Miller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.09 19:05:00 - [321] /signed Great analogy with the story, I liked it. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Hutch ([email protected])
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.09.09 20:30:00 - [322] There should be no insurance payout for suicide gankers. It just makes no sense to compensate for a deliberate act. I lost an Astarte to a pair of suicide drakes, in a 0.5 sec system concord took 20secs to turn up, by then it was all over. I think they were after my faction med repper which wasn't worth a whole lot. Maybe they made a few mill on it after replacing their T2 fit drakes, but I lost about 220m worth of ship. no compensation for me and I had no means of defence. Kill rights are no compensation. I'm just not into spending time and isk on these lamers. Much more enjoyable and profitable things to be doing.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.09 20:35:00 - [323] Originally by: Needo I am not writing on behalf of myself, I have never been high sec ganked, nor will I most likely. I wrote that simply because the mechanics of high sec ganking is borked. That's it. Call everyone stupid all you like, it doesnt change a thing. It doesnt take any brains to gank, and it doesnt take much brains to avoid it, but that has nothing to do with it. The system can still be broken, and it is. The gankers are too safe while they are choosing their targets. Repeating the same thing over and over without stating a reason makes you a troll and a moron.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 20:40:00 - [324] Originally by: OneSock There should be no insurance payout for suicide gankers. It just makes no sense to compensate for a deliberate act. I lost an Astarte to a pair of suicide drakes, in a 0.5 sec system concord took 20secs to turn up, by then it was all over. I think they were after my faction med repper which wasn't worth a whole lot. Maybe they made a few mill on it after replacing their T2 fit drakes, but I lost about 220m worth of ship. no compensation for me and I had no means of defence. Kill rights are no compensation. I'm just not into spending time and isk on these lamers. Much more enjoyable and profitable things to be doing. If you remove insurance from getting concoredokkendthen on principle you should lose insurance for going into low sec and 0.0 Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.09 20:41:00 - [325] Originally by: Captian Internet If you remove insurance from getting concoredokkendthen on principle you should lose insurance for going into low sec and 0.0 Why? That logic makes no sense.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.09 20:46:00 - [326] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Captian Internet If you remove insurance from getting concoredokkendthen on principle you should lose insurance for going into low sec and 0.0 Why? That logic makes no sense. Because the base argument being used against insurance payouts for getting concordokken'd is that they are committing a crime and should not get paid. Going into a lowsec entry is a high risk situation and going into a 0.0 entry is a VERY high risk situation (except maybe l4x I rarely see it camped lol). The arguments being thrown out are "Any real insurance company would not insure criminals" where in reality any one entering 0.4 through 0.0 and dying should get higher insurance rates based upon what they are saying and self destructing your ship would be considered insurance fraud. Thats what I'm getting at If insurance is such an issue just remove it all together less isk pouring into the game anyways. Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.09 21:15:00 - [327] Edited by: Okkie2 on 09/09/2007 21:16:30 => xOm3gAx Nice story, but i don't agree at all with it. It's just wrong if a ganker can look at a target and knows in front if it will be profitable or not to kill him. Killing a target should and will always be possible, but a ganker should not be able to calculate in front if he must attack a target or not. Also his target should have a way to defeat himself. Atm the only thing that works is to make sure his cargo is worth less then the gankers would loose if they would kill him. He cannot defend his ship with a gang (there's no aggression until it's too late), the sec-hit for killing him is nothing more then a few hours ratting in low-sec (which is a great way to make isk) There's just no risk in suicide ganking atm, you know what you loose, you know what you get (on average) so you also know the profit.
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.09 21:59:00 - [328] Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Maybe you dont understand the concept of risk vs reward.....when you take a chance on a unknown set of variables....that is risk When the outcome is not a certanity,and you proceed anyways,that is risk. What is being discussed here is "acceptable loss".The outcome is a known factor,and the loss is trivial,the reward however is immense. And the "acceptable loss" is made trivial with the useage of an alt,that presumably most of these suicide gankers have already.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:16:00 - [329] Originally by: Okkie2 Edited by: Okkie2 on 09/09/2007 21:16:30 => xOm3gAx Nice story, but i don't agree at all with it. It's just wrong if a ganker can look at a target and knows in front if it will be profitable or not to kill him. Killing a target should and will always be possible, but a ganker should not be able to calculate in front if he must attack a target or not. Also his target should have a way to defeat himself. Atm the only thing that works is to make sure his cargo is worth less then the gankers would loose if they would kill him. He cannot defend his ship with a gang (there's no aggression until it's too late), the sec-hit for killing him is nothing more then a few hours ratting in low-sec (which is a great way to make isk) There's just no risk in suicide ganking atm, you know what you loose, you know what you get (on average) so you also know the profit. Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Fly with friends in a corp together that solves the problem of defence as long as your in a ship that can take 2k dmg in the first volley you will never have an issue. And 2k post resist dmg isnt hard to tank. But it does require thinking a little. They attack you they must attack your friends as well. Its an MMO not a single player game. Have you ever ratted in low sec? I suggest you try it. It took me 3 months to go from -5 to -.9 playing every day. In 0.0 it woulda taken a week at most. Neither of which are enjoyable and in both cases tend to be rather dangerous. So basicly you wasted my time with your post as i answered all the same questions again. In all cases it is more then possible to prevent high sec gank and VERY easy to prevent if you simply think about it. Obviously its not everyones strong point however it is still something that is possible. The only thing i do agree with you on (and even then its still not a 100% agreement) is the you know what you lose and you know what you get on average part. However there is more risk in it then you give it credit for as if everyone flew with half a brain and protected themselves even the cheap cargo can way (costs maybe 2mil max and adds extra cargo space!) it would reduce the number of suicide ganks and remove the cargo knowlege from the ganker and thus remove the "estimated" profit margin. This in its self would essentially kill high sec ganking if everyone did it. But no... no one thinks about the little things you can do to protect yourself ingame you all only come to the forums to whine when you think its an exploit or a flaw and whenever you lose thats what it is. If there were no ways to protect yourself that i could think of (within seconds mind you) then i would be incline to agree however this is not the case and as thus your argument is flawed. If you can show me how it is NOT possible to protect yourself (give me details) then i'll admit being wrong but seeing as i've provided the ways to protect yourself already and they are things people currently do i don't think its a necessity for you to even bother as the examples i provided nullified your argument. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:35:00 - [330] Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Cargocontainers does not work to shield off cargoscanning. It IS very hard to protect yourself from suicideganks and still making the haul worth anything at all. Sure haulers could hire all of the mercs in game and whipe out everyone in local one jump ahead each jump... but it is not viable.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:36:00 - [331] Originally by: Giatshi Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Maybe you dont understand the concept of risk vs reward.....when you take a chance on a unknown set of variables....that is risk When the outcome is not a certanity,and you proceed anyways,that is risk. What is being discussed here is "acceptable loss".The outcome is a known factor,and the loss is trivial,the reward however is immense. And the "acceptable loss" is made trivial with the useage of an alt,that presumably most of these suicide gankers have already. Acceptable loss is really as follows... 3 Pirates catch you and force you to jet your cargo without destroying your ship you jet it knowing the loss and its acceptable to you. Risk Vs Reward is really more like this i gank you in high sec ( the loss of my ship is acceptable yes ) but i have no idea what your ship is going to drop. Sure i might know whats on it but what are the chances of something being destroyed? Pretty high if you ask me and as thus you have risk the risk that anything of real value might be destroyed thus causing me more loss then payout. The people who do use alts however are not doing anything wrong imo unless they are recycling their alts which is an exploit and is bannable... that is the only time i have a problem with the alts. Also a variable doesnt have to be an unknown x can = 7 but when y changes the variable x may no longer = 7 for example... x = 7 (7 items in your hold) y = random percentile x - (xy) = 3 items remain in your hold after ship destruction Therefore the value of x has changed X = 3 This is possible when you assign variables to dif aspects of the game. Though it should be noted that x is only a variable until you scan the ship and then only just prior to ship destruction is it no longer a variable as anything prone to the possibility of change is in itself a variable and not otherwise. Not sure if that makes sense to you the way i explained it but it is the truth none the less. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:39:00 - [332] Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 23:40:00 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Cargocontainers does not work to shield off cargoscanning. It IS very hard to protect yourself from suicideganks and still making the haul worth anything at all. Sure haulers could hire all of the mercs in game and whipe out everyone in local one jump ahead each jump... but it is not viable. Well i do know that at one time they did work however if that has changed it is still quite possible to protect yourself from suicide ganks. I should know i've flown through jita at least a half dozen times with 2x t2 bpo's in my hold moving them around to dif pos locations. Its all a matter of what your flying and how you kit it. And it is more then possible to still make it worth hauling what your hauling you just need to know what your doing. Eg: I've tanked citadel torps before and they never did more then maybe 20 dmg. Mind you in that case i knew what to expect and as thus my resists for the torp they were using were rediculously high however it is still possible(if i remember correctly) to get enough all round resists to tank around 5k or so raw dps in a t1 hauler. Edit: and btw... by the time they could do enough dmg to you to kill you it wouldnt be worth the losses. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:50:00 - [333] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 09/09/2007 23:51:26 Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 23:49:01 Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 23:40:00 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Cargocontainers does not work to shield off cargoscanning. It IS very hard to protect yourself from suicideganks and still making the haul worth anything at all. Sure haulers could hire all of the mercs in game and whipe out everyone in local one jump ahead each jump... but it is not viable. Well i do know that at one time they did work however if that has changed it is still quite possible to protect yourself from suicide ganks. I should know i've flown through jita at least a half dozen times with 2x t2 bpo's in my hold moving them around to dif pos locations. Its all a matter of what your flying and how you kit it. And it is more then possible to still make it worth hauling what your hauling you just need to know what your doing. Eg: I've tanked citadel torps before and they never did more then maybe 20 dmg. Mind you in that case i knew what to expect and as thus my resists for the torp they were using were rediculously high however it is still possible(if i remember correctly) to get enough all round resists to tank around 5k or so raw dps in a t1 hauler. Edit: and btw... by the time they could do enough dmg to you to kill you it wouldnt be worth the losses. Edit2: in quick fit just messing around i got the lowest resist on a badger mk2 to 75%. So you've escaped from someone trying to kill you... and that proves that suicideganks isn't an issue? Wonderful logic. I have never been suicideganked either but I do realise that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, you can (and should) tank you hauler but the gankers can just add another ship to the mix if the first donÆt break the tank and still make insane profits. Quote: Edit2: in quick fit just messing around i got the lowest resist on a badger mk2 to 75%. You really don't see how this isn't very relevant in this discussion? If i could get a Ibis to tank a Doomsday should we then allow 0,0 alliances to DD jita 4-4?
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.10 01:22:00 - [334] Listen man im not going to sit here and argue over the same points over and over again when you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Its not difficult i spent those irrelevant 10seconds or whatever in quickfit and came up with a kit that can tank 5k raw dps though for no extended period of time it would work long enough for concord to kill the gankers. Explain to me how its not relevant that i provided a way for someone to protect themselves in the situation you are currently arguing has no way of protecting against? I think its only irrelevant to you because you cannot provide valid argument to show otherwise. Again put the proof in front of my face to prove me wrong. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.10 01:49:00 - [335] Originally by: xOm3gAx Listen man im not going to sit here and argue over the same points over and over again when you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Its not difficult i spent those irrelevant 10seconds or whatever in quickfit and came up with a kit that can tank 5k raw dps though for no extended period of time it would work long enough for concord to kill the gankers. Explain to me how its not relevant that i provided a way for someone to protect themselves in the situation you are currently arguing has no way of protecting against? I think its only irrelevant to you because you cannot provide valid argument to show otherwise. I think the fact that freighters with, what close to 200,000 hitpoints are being killed under 20 seconds in highsec-ganks pretty much nullifies your argument. Quote: you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Have I EVER claimed that it's not possible to take countermeasures against suicideganks? I'm saying that 1. the risk vs reward for the gankers are borked 2.tanked industrials are easily killed 3. the few defensive actions (other than tanking the hauler) you can take are seldom viable Quote: Again put the proof in front of my face to prove me wrong. Proof of what? That you can tank a hauler? I'm sure you can but hardly well enough to outtank a average-skilled ganksquad.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.10 01:56:00 - [336] Originally by: Cpt Fina I think the fact that freighters with, what close to 200,000 hitpoints are being killed under 20 seconds in highsec-ganks Using the laws of addition if you bring enough force you could kill anything in under 20 seconds just polaris frigates would take quite a few titans to do so Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.10 07:54:00 - [337] Quote: Originally by: Needo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not writing on behalf of myself, I have never been high sec ganked, nor will I most likely. I wrote that simply because the mechanics of high sec ganking is borked. That's it. Call everyone stupid all you like, it doesnt change a thing. It doesnt take any brains to gank, and it doesnt take much brains to avoid it, but that has nothing to do with it. The system can still be broken, and it is. The gankers are too safe while they are choosing their targets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Repeating the same thing over and over without stating a reason makes you a troll and a moron. What part of that did you not understand Sherlock? The gankers are too safe because a) their ships dont carry valuable mods and b) they are in secure space. This is wrong because a) they pose a potential threat to anyone that passes through the system, but b) they are completely safe doing so because CONCORD protects their bums. Compare this to a) that you have to unaggress for at least 30 secs (or is it 60 now?) before docking, hence you cannot sit safe at a station while shooting everyone that undocks, and b) you cannot insta-target someone when leaving cloaked mode. For the same reason again, you should not be able to sit safely and pose a threat to others. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.10 08:10:00 - [338] Edited by: Okkie2 on 10/09/2007 08:16:58 Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Last time i checked (a few months ago) a scanner did also show everything inside a container, if that's changed it's a good thing and that would probably solve the main problem. I'll check it when i'm home tonight Quote: Fly with friends in a corp together that solves the problem of defence as long as your in a ship that can take 2k dmg in the first volley you will never have an issue. And 2k post resist dmg isnt hard to tank. But it does require thinking a little. They attack you they must attack your friends as well. Its an MMO not a single player game. If that's possible it's ok, but when you are flying a freighter the attacking force can calculate exactly how many ships they will need for a guaranteed gank. It doesn't matter how much support you bring, the freighter will get killed. Quote: Have you ever ratted in low sec? I suggest you try it. It took me 3 months to go from -5 to -.9 playing every day. In 0.0 it woulda taken a week at most. Neither of which are enjoyable and in both cases tend to be rather dangerous. Learn how the sec-rating works and you can bring your security level from -5 to -.9 within a few days (in 0.0) Quote: So basicly you wasted my time with your post as i answered all the same questions again. In all cases it is more then possible to prevent high sec gank and VERY easy to prevent if you simply think about it. Obviously its not everyones strong point however it is still something that is possible. Well, you basicly also wasted my time by stating things which have been said numerous times before Quote: If there were no ways to protect yourself that i could think of (within seconds mind you) then i would be incline to agree however this is not the case and as thus your argument is flawed. If you can show me how it is NOT possible to protect yourself (give me details) then i'll admit being wrong but seeing as i've provided the ways to protect yourself already and they are things people currently do i don't think its a necessity for you to even bother as the examples i provided nullified your argument. You cannot protect yourself from the kill itself, bring 100 gang mates and your ship will still be destroyed by a group of gankers who know what they are doing. I think it should be possible to prevent a gank if you have enough support with you (well, corp-members can do at least something though not enough, but other friends in your gang cannot). But as i said, if the cargo can trick really does work and it's intended to work this way i guess this solves the main problem which is knowing in advance what the profit will be.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.10 10:43:00 - [339] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: xOm3gAx Listen man im not going to sit here and argue over the same points over and over again when you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Its not difficult i spent those irrelevant 10seconds or whatever in quickfit and came up with a kit that can tank 5k raw dps though for no extended period of time it would work long enough for concord to kill the gankers. Explain to me how its not relevant that i provided a way for someone to protect themselves in the situation you are currently arguing has no way of protecting against? I think its only irrelevant to you because you cannot provide valid argument to show otherwise. I think the fact that freighters with, what close to 200,000 hitpoints are being killed under 20 seconds in highsec-ganks pretty much nullifies your argument. Quote: you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Have I EVER claimed that it's not possible to take countermeasures against suicideganks? I'm saying that 1. the risk vs reward for the gankers are borked 2.tanked industrials are easily killed 3. the few defensive actions (other than tanking the hauler) you can take are seldom viable Quote: Again put the proof in front of my face to prove me wrong. Proof of what? That you can tank a hauler? I'm sure you can but hardly well enough to outtank a average-skilled ganksquad. In the case of freighters all they needed was a scout instead of afk'ing it. Also many of them were empty and in some cases they lost 15-20 ships in the process 1.5-2bil in battleships right there using median prices not including mods or insurance figures into it. Also raw hp is no substitute for resists. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.10 11:02:00 - [340] Originally by: xOm3gAx In the case of freighters all they needed was a scout instead of afk'ing it. Also many of them were empty and in some cases they lost 15-20 ships in the process 1.5-2bil in battleships right there using median prices not including mods or insurance figures into it. Also raw hp is no substitute for resists. A scout doesn't work, all the gankers have to do is also have a scout at the gate and have the gank-group warp-in on a profitable target. All the gank-scout has to do is bump the freighter a few times out of alignment and the freighter is going nowhere. Plain simple, you can not avoid the gank itself atm, if the gankers choose your ship as their target it's just gone and there's nothing you can do about it. BTW a 1.5-2bil loss looks pretty big, but if you add insurance it's closer to 400-500 mil. Furthermore if you loose 15-20 ships in a not succesfull gank you did something wrong. If you want to kill a freighter you know exactly how much damage you need to do, add an extra BS just to be sure and it's a guaranteed kill.
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.10 11:23:00 - [341] You cannot avoid being ganked if you just stick everything in 1 hauler and hope for the best. If the cargo is really valuable, split it up into multiple T2 haulers or the really valuable mods, bpos, etc into ceptors and dictors. Not sure how common freighter suiciding is but it may be possible to save one with a team of logistics ships.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.10 11:35:00 - [342] Yup, no exploits here. However, I doubt that the balance of the games means that freighters should be at risk when transporting only 1 billion worth of cargo. Same for other transport ships. Guns and skills have evolved, and some kind of reasonable limit for trading and piracy has to be made. Currently, it's too low. Do the math, the value of t1 goods often is above the ganking value limit... While I agree that fools moving freighters-volume of t2 stuff should be blown to pieces, I don't understand that it should be the same for t1 stuff. That stuff is not profitable enough to balance the risk of being blown up. Or create shield ships : ships that take some damage instead of the protected ship and which creates a real protection for transports and freighters, enables transportation of large valuable cargo, and also creates the escort profession and all associated services. Currently, there is only 2 defenses that work. Transporting only stuff that is not valuable (defeating the point of using a transport in the first place) and metagaming (and that one works only if your opponents do it worse than yourself) with alts. That said, ganking isn't that common yet. Let's hope it doesn't. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:10:00 - [343] Originally by: Farscape Hw its no secret who my alt is. go have a look at his sec status for yourself, Shamis Orzoz Should I be surprised or impressed with this fact? Because I'm neither. You are the lamest group of people in EVE, and if there is a way to exploit the game you are all over it. It happend in the past and I'm sure it will happen in the future, so yeah no respect if thats what you looking for in this thread. One of you said something about TOXIN doing it to BOB alt freighter, yeah they did it once to prove the point and as a sort of revange for being scamed. You on the other hand do it again and again, even though most of the EVE players think its lame regardles the fact that game mechanics are broken when it comes to high sec ganking.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:32:00 - [344] I don't understand what the exploit is reading over a chunk of this thread. Suicide ganks or T2 heavy drones? --- Put in space whales!

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