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Agent Li
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Posted - 2007.06.08 16:11:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Neuromandis
Originally by: Patch86
With WTZ, fully half of all the opportunities for gankers to scan you disappear, seeing as they can only scan you when you're aligning, not when you're slow boating to the gate.
Not to mention the fact that suiciding occurs in Battleships, and most battleships cannot very well follow an industrial jumping on arrival and hitting warp instantly on jumping(usually slower to align, always slower in warp)
Fly a blockade runner instead. Fit with rigs to reduce mass, and an i-stab, and you warp off faster than most people can notice.
I also fit a cloak.
Jump through a gate, start moving, hit the cloak, then leisurely orient to warp, uncloak, and hit the warp button.
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"Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all." |
RossP Zoyka
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Posted - 2007.06.08 16:37:00 -
[92]
This is clearly an exploit!!!! You have to fit modules to defend your ship in order to prevent being killed. Plus you can't reach your destination safely unless you are monitoring your progress.
All sarcasm aside, quite a few people offered a huge variety of ways to avoid being suicide ganked. My hats off to them.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of haulers are not going to pay any attention to those ideas and instead will continue to fly like lemmings to their deaths.
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Hank Cousteau
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Posted - 2007.06.08 18:44:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Hank Cousteau on 08/06/2007 18:43:22
It would be good to invalidate insurance from gankers... but also concorded wrecks become property of the victim. Bam, instant restitution.
Few more things:
1. There is a problem with drone suicide ganking as far as reaction times
2. Use the Exquorer or a large cargo hulled cruiser if you can .. you probably wont even get scanned
3. Medium shield extenders never impact your hauling capacity, neither do hardeners (passive if you're afking)
4. Put a damn password on your cans, so at least the gankers need to bring an indy themselves to get your surviving ****
5. Make multiple trips carrying less to reduced your risk and make yourself a less juicy target. Figure if you're carrying more than 200m (Cost of two fitted Domis after default payout, and It's a 50% chance of cargo is destroyed)... you're statistically profitable.
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Epicurus
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.08 19:57:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Buyerr
agreed it is an exploit as many other exploit that are beeing allowed and done nothing about "like pos bowling".
Guess you dont read the news then. POS bowling is an exploit
http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1470&tid=1
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Gort
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:05:00 -
[95]
It's not "suicide ganking." No one dies. Even the toon just comes back out of a vat.
It's a straight economic transaction. And a bad one for the game, in my opinion, because it's incredibly lopsided. Someone just decides to trade a certain number of ships for a variable amount of loot from the other guy's wreck. In other words the victim's loss is pretty much guaranteed to pay the ganker's automatic profit. Pretty hard to find much in the way of risk....
Right now this is way out of whack and is hurting the game. Although there are some self-obsessed folk who can't really see that yet. Paying insurance to the muggers in these event is right up there with "Ketchup is a vegetable."
Regards from the farside,
Gort
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When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:18:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Gort
It's a straight economic transaction. And a bad one for the game, in my opinion, because it's incredibly lopsided.
QFT. I know this isn't RL, but some things should follow the rules of sensibility. If you repeatedly smash your car into a tree in front of a hundred witnesses, I seriously doubt you'll be seeing a check from the insurance company for it. Hell, I doubt you'd even see one of those nicely written cancellation notices, much less a check for each and every time you do it.
No, a game shouldn't follow the rules of RL in every aspect of the phrase, but it should at least make some feeble attempt at utilising the rules of common sensibility. Its like paying the stupid for repeatedly doing stupid things. It simply doesn't make any sense.
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Tintifish
Roid Terminators
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:26:00 -
[97]
There's a very good reason i never move in high sec with anything worth over 10m without it being in a can so they cant scan it ;-)
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:27:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Catarina Caldone
Originally by: Gort
It's a straight economic transaction. And a bad one for the game, in my opinion, because it's incredibly lopsided.
QFT. I know this isn't RL, but some things should follow the rules of sensibility. If you repeatedly smash your car into a tree in front of a hundred witnesses, I seriously doubt you'll be seeing a check from the insurance company for it. Hell, I doubt you'd even see one of those nicely written cancellation notices, much less a check for each and every time you do it.
STOP WITH THE REAL LIFE COMPARISONS!!!!!!!
In real life if you continualy drove into a war zone with no police protection (0.0 space) and got your car shot up - you wouldnt recieve insurance payouts either. Lets have no insurance for anyone in 0.0
In real life you would pay more insurance if you lived in a bad ass area (low sec). Lets have MASSIVE insurance costs for people who go into low sec
Oh and no payouts if you die thorugh dire negligence
And no payouts for self destruction
I could go on
SKUNK
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Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:37:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Le Skunk
STOP WITH THE REAL LIFE COMPARISONS!!!!!!!
Hence, the reason I said real life should NOT be the benchmark. Common sensibility should. Attacking another player in hi-sec should not be a payday. At least not where insurance is concerned. Theres really not much "risk vs. reward" if you get back most everything you lost through willful acts of destruction. Suicide, get paid, scoop up the loot, rinse, repeat. What exactly, is sensible about that?
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Buttercup Sedai
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:50:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Buttercup Sedai on 08/06/2007 20:50:37
Originally by: Le Skunk
STOP WITH THE REAL LIFE COMPARISONS!!!!!!!
Hey man, internet spaceships are serious business 
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Isyel
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:55:00 -
[101]
Poor bastard OP fails to see CONCORD is not like the police in any reasonable way.
Read teh fluff!
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Originally by: Wrangler
We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want *both* anti-social *and* social players to grief each other! 
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Catarina Caldone
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Posted - 2007.06.08 21:09:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Isyel
Poor bastard OP fails to see CONCORD is not like the police in any reasonable way.
Read teh fluff!
Again, QFT. CONCORD action shouldn't be changed in any way. But the insurance mechanics should. If you willfully sacrifice your ship in ANY manner, you shouldn't get any insurance payment for it.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.08 21:12:00 -
[103]
It's not the Suicide Ganking that should be called a bug/exploit, but the use of Drones to do it...
Concords current limited blindness when it comes to drones and has been fixed on Sisi needs to be classified a bug and it's use an exploit...
Feel free to suicide gank all you want, but do it without drones.
None of us is as dumb as all of us...
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genome 77
Gallente
Los Gordos
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Posted - 2007.06.08 21:13:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kuolematon
I heard that there is some corps that makes most of their ISK by suiciding nublets in empire 
As a carebear, I fully support this way of action. Thats why when I afk haul stuff, I have containers to hide my juicy officer itams! 
ohhhhhhhhh, you AFK haul with a hold full of officer loot, time to fire up some locator agents and make some iskies!
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Killing you was a simple matter of economics. Your gear was worth more than the ammunition used to attain it, thus profit is born. |
Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.06.08 21:36:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Rabbitual Ferrier on 08/06/2007 21:40:01
Originally by: RFwills
Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14
(Note, this is not just me griping, but rather a persistent attempt at bettering eve for everyone)
Ok so Ive been playing eve for about a year now. And havent had any real complaints about ccp and their rulings. Until now.
A friend in my corp(about a 2 year player) was in HIsec to move some of his supplies around. He was in jita with a cargohold and got suicide ganked by t2 ogres by only a couple people. He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve. I am flabberghasted(if thats how u spell that word), enraged, and dissapointed by ccp's judgement in this case. Its ludacris. The whole point of Hi sec is safety. You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff. I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is. Heres another thread I saw a smiliar incident occur on: LINK
Lets take this view of whether its an exploit or not away for a moment. Either way it is something eve players do not like being manipulated on them and customers are being lost. If customers are quitting eve then that means a real problem is at hand. This is not something ccp can just rule out as "thats how the game works". It is unfair to honest hi sec traders/haulers. Main reason is... It cannot be avoided! When a pooly armored indy is attacked by a suicide ganker gang with t2 heavy drones. There is nothing that can be done. The only way to stop it is to have a buddy reppin u on the whole duration of ur trip. If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word. And if something isnt done soon thats exactly how it will be. PLaying eve will be made alot less enjoyable by this factor and loose alot of fanbase.
Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord.
Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude.
The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards. The victim is helpless and devestated by the major loss. This is unacceptable and should be addressed ASAP by ccp.
Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp.
(Note to any devs/gm's reading this, my corpmates characters are malinda firestorm, salinda firestorm, and pyrite fardreamer, one of these has a petition on file, which as a first step should be attended to accordingly)
Sincerely,
RFwills
Rab Ferriers Top Tips
When moving very expensive objects why not try Secure Cargo containers for all your stop the gank profit needs?
2 billion is a LOT of money, would you walk round flashing that much cash without hiring bodyguards.
T2 Ogres, the gank drone of choice. Consider thermal tanking as a investment against robbery.
2 Billion isk? Probably worth spending more than a couple of hundred thou on the transporting vessel.
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.08 21:48:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Shakuul
Originally by: Izo Azlion
If someone stabs you in the middle of London, the Police will not always be there fast enough. You can assume that London = Jita, and the Police = Concord.
If someone stabs you in London, assuming they are caught by police extremely quickly (like in EVE), they don't get to keep the briefcase you were carrying with your laptop, or any other belongings they might have taken. Their friend can't come and pick them up either.
I wasnt talking about that. I'm tired of people thinking their safe in high sec. Its high security, not immunity.
Izo Azlion.
---
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected])
Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig. |
Titus Blackthorn
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:20:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ladyah Liandri
Originally by: RFwills
He lost 2 bil and has now quit eve.
Quitting EVE over loss is naturally sad. However - a 2 year old player hauling 2 billion worth of goods in Jita space that seems to be full of gankers lately ... errr ... come on. Originally by: RFwills
The whole point of Hi sec is safety.
Says who? It has been said a thousand times: hi-sec is safer not safe. Originally by: RFwills
I know through these forums more and more people are getting tired of this exploit, which is what I will call it because by the majority of eve players, thats what it is.
First it's not an exploit. And second a couple of forum whiners don't represent the majority of EVE.
Nothing is too much a word. But I agree protecting a dumb T1 hauler can be tricky. On the other hand - if you want to haul stuff worth billions maybe someone shouldn't use a T1 hauler? Or do you run level 4 missions in a frig since it's cheaper?
Originally by: RFwills
Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right?
What? The innocent .... good one  . Ok some clarification: Concord is not Police. Concord is a faction independet organization that serves only one purpose: punishing illegal acts of aggression in hi-sec. Their ships are already equipped with a T2 I win button. What more do you want?
Originally by: RFwills
The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards.
That is correct. And I admit that there are flaws.
Even if a ganker doesn't get anything insurance will cover his loss. And given the current ship build costs he'd actually make profit out of it.
The sec hit for ganking is kind of negligible if you ain't doing it full-time. So you are right - for some people a career in the ganking field might seem attractive.
But that is just one further reason to be more careful and alert even and especially in hi-sec.
Thread-o-mancy???
Just wanted to pipe in here a tad. 2 year old player yes spending much of that time away from HIsec, going to the one place that is nearly universally agreed as the hot spot to buy/sell stuff. Just saying he had no clue Jita was now a gank zone... then/now.
The nature of way things went down, I would certainly call it an exploit, but since it not lets share the details.... Person A attacks person B to bring in concord as person B attack person C. Concord swoops in insta kills A and then sits there and sits there and umm sits there. Its about this time the gang of gankers start there attacks on would be innocent folks.
Why? Simply put Concord attacks person B next and then sits there and sits there and umm sits there. That is a known bug and the gankers are exploiting it. If you haven't guessed by now Player A, B, and C, are part of the gank tactic and are in crap ships. Their role is to lag up (for better terms) Concord, freeing the rest to gank. Litterally preventing Concord from doing what they are supposed to do.
As I understand it the person who played for 2 years was in a Freighter not some tech 1 indy. You can't slap in any fittings on that puppy. Warping to zero might have saved him... but that's really diverts from the fact they (the gankers) were using an exploit..period. And that is the issue presented.
Forget he was upset at the loss, which btw I know the guy and in fact introduced him to this game and can say he losses ship about as much as the next person and rolls with it because its all part of the game.
Its the issue of the exploit that needs to be fixed.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:23:00 -
[108]
Hmm, a month. A maybe-IBTL?
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I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Titus Blackthorn
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:35:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Hmm, a month. A maybe-IBTL?
My bad lol
ooh added notes... I am all for suicide ganks and what not. GOoooo pirates!!! I just think the point of the issue was missed and or left out of how it went down.
This wasn't a case where a ganker went in and alpha striked an indy and got blown up and his buddy grabbed the loot scenario and indy pilot was some afk carebear...if it was I would be like the rest of you sharks in the water smelling blood ;)
It was imho an exploit see the read on Players A, B, and C above.
kthnx
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Mordrake
ComNav Resources
SunStorm Dominion
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Posted - 2007.07.18 21:48:00 -
[110]
Originally by: RFwills
Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47
You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this *** happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune. When this evolves and becomes as common as the backround stars. Something will have to be done, its only a matter of time. This is a chance for the developers to get ahead of a major problem.
Heres something, If almost every single hi sec system had gates with awaiting suicide gangs, would you play eve? Theres only one real answer to that question.
Its not a problem its a life lesson in EVE... happened to my hauling alt with an Iteron V full of Ferrogel. Solution = Train TII haulers... more tank means less chance of empire Gank ; ]
"Arte et Marte" |
HelloDevette
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Posted - 2007.07.18 22:00:00 -
[111]
Originally by: RFwills
Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14
Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord.
Police forces do act a lot like concord. If someone was determined to attack another person, would you expect the police to stop it before it ever happened ala minority report or for them to RESPOND to an attack?
It's a game. Ship destruction is part of the game. Anyone that is upset with ship destruction or losing virtual "property" is not cut out for eve.
Also, never fly with/carry more than you can afford to lose. Would you walk around town with your life savings in your pocket?
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Wigglytuff
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.18 23:07:00 -
[112]
Highsec is safer, nothing more.
Belt piracy isnt what it used to be.  |
Ninja Otaku
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Posted - 2007.07.18 23:39:00 -
[113]
To anyone ever suicide ganked, EVER.
"Welcome to Eve-Online"
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Kalibas
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Posted - 2007.07.19 18:40:00 -
[114]
I find it interesting how game mechanics like these are fully endorsed by CCP yet macro mining is not...
I understand that CCP makes a stance saying that the higher security threat zones aren't supposed to be safe, just safer, but from what I've been reading and figuring out about the game (still just a newb) I highly doubt CCP actually calculated for this game mechanic. It just seems like an extreme bending of the rules that makes no actual sense.
I have yet to have this happen to me, but since I hear all this talk about it I always warp to zero and basically spend as little time as possible floating around (even though I have nothing of value except my ship).
I certainly hope the standard suggestions that everyone is mentioning (no insurance payout, confiscated wreckage) are implemented, as it makes much more sense. If the CONCORD Police were all just robots, then I would understand the current game mechanics, but as I understand it they're not.
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gfldex
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.19 18:49:00 -
[115]
Originally by: RFwills
You should be able to make a couple jumps without having to worry about dieing/loosing your stuff.
Why? And I really want to know why you believe that would be a good idea. There are so many ppl that seam to have a problem with that. With the knowledge why they believe they should be save there could be done something.
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There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
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Vorketh Mordanil
Amarr
Brotherhood of Acquisitions
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Posted - 2007.07.19 18:51:00 -
[116]
Someone should have read the Tips and Advice section of the EVE Player Guide held 7 links down on the left hand navigation... it clearly states as I paraphrase: DO NOT RELY ON CONCORD TO KEEP YOU SAFE. AS WITH THE REAL POLICE, THEY OFTEN ARRIVE TOO LATE AFTER THE CRIME HAS OCCURRED AND WILL DISPENSE JUSTICE, NOT PROTECTION.
Yes... believe it or not, murders ACTUALLY happen in both real life and in EVE! The police can't actually know ahead of time what someone is planning (Minority Report... gross). So when you quit along with your friend....
Can I have your stuff?
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Sharupak
Minmatar
Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2007.07.19 19:14:00 -
[117]
Quote:
Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude.
EXACTLY! That is what is so cool about this game!
The station is the only safe place in EVE. Everything is fair game. That is what makes it FUN!
_______________________________________________
RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.07.19 20:50:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 20:53:26
Op, you are just wrong. High sec just means that concord will catch the criminal, not protect you. If people quit Eve because their ship gets blown up, maybe they are looking for a game where people cant blow you up.
Nothing wrong with that. Eve is the way it is because the designers wanted a harsh, cold, unforgiving universe. Its not for everybody. It simply isnt. We who play Eve likes this about the game.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2007.07.19 20:52:00 -
[119]
Originally by: RFwills
The whole point of Hi sec is safety.
no its simply, safER.
this isnt a secret its pretty well known.
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Yanjul Slagenhoffen
NovaeDyne Industries
Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.07.19 20:58:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2007 20:53:26
Op, you are just wrong. High sec just means that concord will catch the criminal, not protect you. If people quit Eve because their ship gets blown up, maybe they are looking for a game where people cant blow you up.
Nothing wrong with that. Eve is the way it is because the designers wanted a harsh, cold, unforgiving universe. Its not for everybody. It simply isnt. We who play Eve likes this about the game.
But you must agree the insurance acts wrong;
In a case where your in high sec and you shoot someone and die to concord, its your own doing and you know its your own doing, you shouldnt AT ALL get the insurance back.
Also another point would be sec status, you've been seen by CONCORD (the police) with the will and guts to engage a ship right in front of them. So why only the mild sec hit, these people should go straight to outlaw!
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