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xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:36:00 - [331] Originally by: Giatshi Originally by: Farscape Hw anyone who suports what the op said is a complete and utter carebear noob. you have no idea of what this game is about. the whole thing that makes eve what it is is the risk vs reward. you putting extremly expensive stuff in your t1 frig cargohold is a massive risk. its your own dumb fault for setting a destination and hitting autopilot. if you ppl keep whining and ccp change the rules to suite you damn noobs who have no concept of what eve is, THEN it will become less fun and the real experienced players will start to leave the game. we are not playing WOW. this is eve online. you being able to be killed anywhere in the game is very much a huge factor in why ppl choose this game over others. now for your irrellevant real life scenario... the stupid guy who got mugged was carrying crazy amounts of money in his wallet, and wearing a gold watch and platnum chain around his kneck. the guys who robbed him gave the goods to thier buddy just before the cops got there. therefore the cops arrest the guys and they go to jail for robbing him (its not like you get out with your ship intact). but the money is gone never to be seen again by the victim. stop being a whiny little noob and go back to your agent mission. Maybe you dont understand the concept of risk vs reward.....when you take a chance on a unknown set of variables....that is risk When the outcome is not a certanity,and you proceed anyways,that is risk. What is being discussed here is "acceptable loss".The outcome is a known factor,and the loss is trivial,the reward however is immense. And the "acceptable loss" is made trivial with the useage of an alt,that presumably most of these suicide gankers have already. Acceptable loss is really as follows... 3 Pirates catch you and force you to jet your cargo without destroying your ship you jet it knowing the loss and its acceptable to you. Risk Vs Reward is really more like this i gank you in high sec ( the loss of my ship is acceptable yes ) but i have no idea what your ship is going to drop. Sure i might know whats on it but what are the chances of something being destroyed? Pretty high if you ask me and as thus you have risk the risk that anything of real value might be destroyed thus causing me more loss then payout. The people who do use alts however are not doing anything wrong imo unless they are recycling their alts which is an exploit and is bannable... that is the only time i have a problem with the alts. Also a variable doesnt have to be an unknown x can = 7 but when y changes the variable x may no longer = 7 for example... x = 7 (7 items in your hold) y = random percentile x - (xy) = 3 items remain in your hold after ship destruction Therefore the value of x has changed X = 3 This is possible when you assign variables to dif aspects of the game. Though it should be noted that x is only a variable until you scan the ship and then only just prior to ship destruction is it no longer a variable as anything prone to the possibility of change is in itself a variable and not otherwise. Not sure if that makes sense to you the way i explained it but it is the truth none the less. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:39:00 - [332] Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 23:40:00 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Cargocontainers does not work to shield off cargoscanning. It IS very hard to protect yourself from suicideganks and still making the haul worth anything at all. Sure haulers could hire all of the mercs in game and whipe out everyone in local one jump ahead each jump... but it is not viable. Well i do know that at one time they did work however if that has changed it is still quite possible to protect yourself from suicide ganks. I should know i've flown through jita at least a half dozen times with 2x t2 bpo's in my hold moving them around to dif pos locations. Its all a matter of what your flying and how you kit it. And it is more then possible to still make it worth hauling what your hauling you just need to know what your doing. Eg: I've tanked citadel torps before and they never did more then maybe 20 dmg. Mind you in that case i knew what to expect and as thus my resists for the torp they were using were rediculously high however it is still possible(if i remember correctly) to get enough all round resists to tank around 5k or so raw dps in a t1 hauler. Edit: and btw... by the time they could do enough dmg to you to kill you it wouldnt be worth the losses. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.09 23:50:00 - [333] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 09/09/2007 23:51:26 Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 23:49:01 Edited by: xOm3gAx on 09/09/2007 23:40:00 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Cargocontainers does not work to shield off cargoscanning. It IS very hard to protect yourself from suicideganks and still making the haul worth anything at all. Sure haulers could hire all of the mercs in game and whipe out everyone in local one jump ahead each jump... but it is not viable. Well i do know that at one time they did work however if that has changed it is still quite possible to protect yourself from suicide ganks. I should know i've flown through jita at least a half dozen times with 2x t2 bpo's in my hold moving them around to dif pos locations. Its all a matter of what your flying and how you kit it. And it is more then possible to still make it worth hauling what your hauling you just need to know what your doing. Eg: I've tanked citadel torps before and they never did more then maybe 20 dmg. Mind you in that case i knew what to expect and as thus my resists for the torp they were using were rediculously high however it is still possible(if i remember correctly) to get enough all round resists to tank around 5k or so raw dps in a t1 hauler. Edit: and btw... by the time they could do enough dmg to you to kill you it wouldnt be worth the losses. Edit2: in quick fit just messing around i got the lowest resist on a badger mk2 to 75%. So you've escaped from someone trying to kill you... and that proves that suicideganks isn't an issue? Wonderful logic. I have never been suicideganked either but I do realise that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, you can (and should) tank you hauler but the gankers can just add another ship to the mix if the first donÆt break the tank and still make insane profits. Quote: Edit2: in quick fit just messing around i got the lowest resist on a badger mk2 to 75%. You really don't see how this isn't very relevant in this discussion? If i could get a Ibis to tank a Doomsday should we then allow 0,0 alliances to DD jita 4-4?
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.10 01:22:00 - [334] Listen man im not going to sit here and argue over the same points over and over again when you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Its not difficult i spent those irrelevant 10seconds or whatever in quickfit and came up with a kit that can tank 5k raw dps though for no extended period of time it would work long enough for concord to kill the gankers. Explain to me how its not relevant that i provided a way for someone to protect themselves in the situation you are currently arguing has no way of protecting against? I think its only irrelevant to you because you cannot provide valid argument to show otherwise. Again put the proof in front of my face to prove me wrong. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.10 01:49:00 - [335] Originally by: xOm3gAx Listen man im not going to sit here and argue over the same points over and over again when you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Its not difficult i spent those irrelevant 10seconds or whatever in quickfit and came up with a kit that can tank 5k raw dps though for no extended period of time it would work long enough for concord to kill the gankers. Explain to me how its not relevant that i provided a way for someone to protect themselves in the situation you are currently arguing has no way of protecting against? I think its only irrelevant to you because you cannot provide valid argument to show otherwise. I think the fact that freighters with, what close to 200,000 hitpoints are being killed under 20 seconds in highsec-ganks pretty much nullifies your argument. Quote: you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Have I EVER claimed that it's not possible to take countermeasures against suicideganks? I'm saying that 1. the risk vs reward for the gankers are borked 2.tanked industrials are easily killed 3. the few defensive actions (other than tanking the hauler) you can take are seldom viable Quote: Again put the proof in front of my face to prove me wrong. Proof of what? That you can tank a hauler? I'm sure you can but hardly well enough to outtank a average-skilled ganksquad.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.10 01:56:00 - [336] Originally by: Cpt Fina I think the fact that freighters with, what close to 200,000 hitpoints are being killed under 20 seconds in highsec-ganks Using the laws of addition if you bring enough force you could kill anything in under 20 seconds just polaris frigates would take quite a few titans to do so Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.10 07:54:00 - [337] Quote: Originally by: Needo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not writing on behalf of myself, I have never been high sec ganked, nor will I most likely. I wrote that simply because the mechanics of high sec ganking is borked. That's it. Call everyone stupid all you like, it doesnt change a thing. It doesnt take any brains to gank, and it doesnt take much brains to avoid it, but that has nothing to do with it. The system can still be broken, and it is. The gankers are too safe while they are choosing their targets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Repeating the same thing over and over without stating a reason makes you a troll and a moron. What part of that did you not understand Sherlock? The gankers are too safe because a) their ships dont carry valuable mods and b) they are in secure space. This is wrong because a) they pose a potential threat to anyone that passes through the system, but b) they are completely safe doing so because CONCORD protects their bums. Compare this to a) that you have to unaggress for at least 30 secs (or is it 60 now?) before docking, hence you cannot sit safe at a station while shooting everyone that undocks, and b) you cannot insta-target someone when leaving cloaked mode. For the same reason again, you should not be able to sit safely and pose a threat to others. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.10 08:10:00 - [338] Edited by: Okkie2 on 10/09/2007 08:16:58 Originally by: xOm3gAx Use cargo containers in your hold and the ganker does not know what you have and cannot calculate what is in your hold. That answers problem 1. Last time i checked (a few months ago) a scanner did also show everything inside a container, if that's changed it's a good thing and that would probably solve the main problem. I'll check it when i'm home tonight Quote: Fly with friends in a corp together that solves the problem of defence as long as your in a ship that can take 2k dmg in the first volley you will never have an issue. And 2k post resist dmg isnt hard to tank. But it does require thinking a little. They attack you they must attack your friends as well. Its an MMO not a single player game. If that's possible it's ok, but when you are flying a freighter the attacking force can calculate exactly how many ships they will need for a guaranteed gank. It doesn't matter how much support you bring, the freighter will get killed. Quote: Have you ever ratted in low sec? I suggest you try it. It took me 3 months to go from -5 to -.9 playing every day. In 0.0 it woulda taken a week at most. Neither of which are enjoyable and in both cases tend to be rather dangerous. Learn how the sec-rating works and you can bring your security level from -5 to -.9 within a few days (in 0.0) Quote: So basicly you wasted my time with your post as i answered all the same questions again. In all cases it is more then possible to prevent high sec gank and VERY easy to prevent if you simply think about it. Obviously its not everyones strong point however it is still something that is possible. Well, you basicly also wasted my time by stating things which have been said numerous times before Quote: If there were no ways to protect yourself that i could think of (within seconds mind you) then i would be incline to agree however this is not the case and as thus your argument is flawed. If you can show me how it is NOT possible to protect yourself (give me details) then i'll admit being wrong but seeing as i've provided the ways to protect yourself already and they are things people currently do i don't think its a necessity for you to even bother as the examples i provided nullified your argument. You cannot protect yourself from the kill itself, bring 100 gang mates and your ship will still be destroyed by a group of gankers who know what they are doing. I think it should be possible to prevent a gank if you have enough support with you (well, corp-members can do at least something though not enough, but other friends in your gang cannot). But as i said, if the cargo can trick really does work and it's intended to work this way i guess this solves the main problem which is knowing in advance what the profit will be.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.09.10 10:43:00 - [339] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: xOm3gAx Listen man im not going to sit here and argue over the same points over and over again when you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Its not difficult i spent those irrelevant 10seconds or whatever in quickfit and came up with a kit that can tank 5k raw dps though for no extended period of time it would work long enough for concord to kill the gankers. Explain to me how its not relevant that i provided a way for someone to protect themselves in the situation you are currently arguing has no way of protecting against? I think its only irrelevant to you because you cannot provide valid argument to show otherwise. I think the fact that freighters with, what close to 200,000 hitpoints are being killed under 20 seconds in highsec-ganks pretty much nullifies your argument. Quote: you have not explained to me how its not possible for someone to use their brain and fly smarter to prevent such a large loss. Have I EVER claimed that it's not possible to take countermeasures against suicideganks? I'm saying that 1. the risk vs reward for the gankers are borked 2.tanked industrials are easily killed 3. the few defensive actions (other than tanking the hauler) you can take are seldom viable Quote: Again put the proof in front of my face to prove me wrong. Proof of what? That you can tank a hauler? I'm sure you can but hardly well enough to outtank a average-skilled ganksquad. In the case of freighters all they needed was a scout instead of afk'ing it. Also many of them were empty and in some cases they lost 15-20 ships in the process 1.5-2bil in battleships right there using median prices not including mods or insurance figures into it. Also raw hp is no substitute for resists. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.10 11:02:00 - [340] Originally by: xOm3gAx In the case of freighters all they needed was a scout instead of afk'ing it. Also many of them were empty and in some cases they lost 15-20 ships in the process 1.5-2bil in battleships right there using median prices not including mods or insurance figures into it. Also raw hp is no substitute for resists. A scout doesn't work, all the gankers have to do is also have a scout at the gate and have the gank-group warp-in on a profitable target. All the gank-scout has to do is bump the freighter a few times out of alignment and the freighter is going nowhere. Plain simple, you can not avoid the gank itself atm, if the gankers choose your ship as their target it's just gone and there's nothing you can do about it. BTW a 1.5-2bil loss looks pretty big, but if you add insurance it's closer to 400-500 mil. Furthermore if you loose 15-20 ships in a not succesfull gank you did something wrong. If you want to kill a freighter you know exactly how much damage you need to do, add an extra BS just to be sure and it's a guaranteed kill.
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.10 11:23:00 - [341] You cannot avoid being ganked if you just stick everything in 1 hauler and hope for the best. If the cargo is really valuable, split it up into multiple T2 haulers or the really valuable mods, bpos, etc into ceptors and dictors. Not sure how common freighter suiciding is but it may be possible to save one with a team of logistics ships.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.10 11:35:00 - [342] Yup, no exploits here. However, I doubt that the balance of the games means that freighters should be at risk when transporting only 1 billion worth of cargo. Same for other transport ships. Guns and skills have evolved, and some kind of reasonable limit for trading and piracy has to be made. Currently, it's too low. Do the math, the value of t1 goods often is above the ganking value limit... While I agree that fools moving freighters-volume of t2 stuff should be blown to pieces, I don't understand that it should be the same for t1 stuff. That stuff is not profitable enough to balance the risk of being blown up. Or create shield ships : ships that take some damage instead of the protected ship and which creates a real protection for transports and freighters, enables transportation of large valuable cargo, and also creates the escort profession and all associated services. Currently, there is only 2 defenses that work. Transporting only stuff that is not valuable (defeating the point of using a transport in the first place) and metagaming (and that one works only if your opponents do it worse than yourself) with alts. That said, ganking isn't that common yet. Let's hope it doesn't. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:10:00 - [343] Originally by: Farscape Hw its no secret who my alt is. go have a look at his sec status for yourself, Shamis Orzoz Should I be surprised or impressed with this fact? Because I'm neither. You are the lamest group of people in EVE, and if there is a way to exploit the game you are all over it. It happend in the past and I'm sure it will happen in the future, so yeah no respect if thats what you looking for in this thread. One of you said something about TOXIN doing it to BOB alt freighter, yeah they did it once to prove the point and as a sort of revange for being scamed. You on the other hand do it again and again, even though most of the EVE players think its lame regardles the fact that game mechanics are broken when it comes to high sec ganking.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:32:00 - [344] I don't understand what the exploit is reading over a chunk of this thread. Suicide ganks or T2 heavy drones? --- Put in space whales!

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