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Rivek Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.06.11 01:31:00 - [181] Oh, and based on the volume of goods bought and sold so far, the total isk put into the eve economy (and into orange species' wallet) is a LOT more than 88bil. More like 2-3x that. Go see for yourself.
Bentus Kushani	Posted - 2007.06.11 01:31:00 - [182] Edited by: Bentus Kushani on 11/06/2007 01:32:56 Edited by: Bentus Kushani on 11/06/2007 01:30:57 Originally by: Alias11 Freighter jumping trivializes waaay too much and presents way too much of an advantage to be left in game. What required 50+ escort and Freighter pilots 2-3 hours now takes one guy in a titan and freighter pilots 20-30 minutes [Note: logistics refers to the supply sense, not the ship] Agreed. I do not know of an easy solution for this either. TBH the whole idea of a Titan having super powers (Remote DDD, being balanced I realize, and the jumpbridge) being balanced by making it super expensive seems a little out of whack. It's as if CCP expected no one to ever reach the level of being able to afford one, and then are suddenly suprised by how powerful its' abilities are when someone does. Note that this is not an attack on BoB for managing to achieve the titans. I salute your skills, resolve, and wallet. o7 Jump bridges are an incredible logistic tool; that is how it was originally conceived. Previously, the largest jump-drive capable ship was the carrier (full of barges), and CCP realized that being able to jump quantities around that were a sizeable amount of a freighter load was borked balance-wise. How they never thought that someone would use a logistics tool to move a logistics ship (freighter) is truly beyond me. CCP should find a way to balance the jumpgate somehow. I do not honestly know. My first suggestion would be that no Titan abilities are useable within a POS shield or at a station. This would ensure that any ships jumping through are vulnerable to being interdicted for at least a short time. This brings risk vs reward back into the equation. It would simply require an escort force at the exit cyno side to secure the area. The next suggestion would be to lengthen the Titan immobility. Once again, a greater security requirement to use the jumpgate safely, or a greater risk in going it solo. A final suggestion would be a three minute warmup time. It would give a well-coordinated enemy sufficient time to locate and prepare for the incoming attack, or for a lucky pilot to warp in rapidly and destroy the offending cyno. I realize that sounds harsh. However, we are talking about the ability for a ship as small as a frigate or as tank-worthy as a dread to jump in an entire fleet. There has to be some ability for a skilled enemy to defend against it. edit:bob to achieve the titans. Once again, o7 on your achievements.
Reinetor Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.06.11 01:33:00 - [183] So.. is this "Internet honesty" team going to research the transaction? How about removing the isks? What crap.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 01:58:00 - [184] Edited by: sartorii on 11/06/2007 02:00:07 i'm starting to wonder why i play eve at all anymore.. oh yea this is balanced.. once again those with all the advantages get all the rewards with no risk.. its an isk fountain, one that started with the first Titan and has only grown exponentially, but ofc CCP wont fix it by removing the HUGE income no one else can share or split... oh no...this is so **** up words escape me. And the damage is already done... how many more titans just got funded through one Exploit of CCP's gullibility? this is yet another example of game breaking play when the 'haves' get richer and more powerful faster than anyone else can. nicely played ccp... not... "disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]**
Ektor	Posted - 2007.06.11 02:03:00 - [185] when you see that illegal isk sellers offers 1b for 60$ eve economy is crashing
Marodi Alivar SUBLIME L.L.C. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.11 02:17:00 - [186] It has already been determined by regulars on this forum that CCP dosent give a crap about what happens in here. So your gripes will go unanswered. And yes, CCP will never do anything that will hurt BoB unless it is brought foreward in non-game venues. (such as the T2 bpo's, the whole goonswarm thing, etc, etc)
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.11 03:38:00 - [187] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/06/2007 03:39:44 Are people really so ignorant that they think a 2b-ISK-a-day fountain is a lot and something new? Ever heard of 10/10 complexes? Heard of the Transcranial and Long Limb Roe traderoutes in empire, and some other more recent ones? They all have near-zero risk and similar profits... but because BoB doesn't do them, clearly they're not a problem. People never whined about titans jump-portaling freighters... even though its been going on for well over a year, done by everyone from ASCN to D2... but now since BoB is doing it, OMG EVERYBODY PANIC. BoB were smart. They found a good trade route, one that CCP didn't expect people to run with such mass freighter hauls. Now that this is going on, they could consider nerfing it, like they did with some of the earlier overpowered trade routes. Its the same as before, the only difference is this time it involves BoB, so clearly the solution, according to forum alts, is to ban them all, because they're BoB and BoB are bad people. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
B Glorious Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.06.11 03:54:00 - [188] Originally by: Dark Shikari Are people really so ignorant that they think a 2b-ISK-a-day fountain is a lot and something new? Ever heard of 10/10 complexes? Heard of the Transcranial and Long Limb Roe traderoutes in empire, and some other more recent ones? They all have near-zero risk and similar profits... but because BoB doesn't do them, clearly they're not a problem. The difference is obviously that a freighter moving through empire isn't getting teleported around by a titan and instead has to move through empire at a snail's pace. Meanwhile, jump bridged freighters get teleported around 0.0 and yet are at no risk whatsoever. And stop with the crap about 10/10 complexes already. Those don't have the same barriers to entry that the titan-freighter jump bridge chain have, running them CAN be circumvented, and they're getting changed in the next patch. Meanwhile, there hasn't been a damn thing said about jump bridging freighters one way or another. Originally by: Dark Shikari People never whined about titans jump-portaling freighters... even though its been going on for well over a year, done by everyone from ASCN to D2... but now since BoB is doing it, OMG EVERYBODY PANIC. BoB were smart. They found a good trade route, one that CCP didn't expect people to run with such mass freighter hauls. Now that this is going on, they could consider nerfing it, like they did with some of the earlier overpowered trade routes. Its the same as before, the only difference is this time it involves BoB, so clearly the solution, according to forum alts, is to ban them all, because they're BoB and BoB are bad people. If you want people to stop with the persecution complex crap, you should stop doing it yourself. Jump bridging freighters is broken now, it was broken then, and it'll still be broken until it gets fixed. That's the key issue, aside from what could be an NPC buy/sell order in need of reassessment.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 04:17:00 - [189] Edited by: sartorii on 11/06/2007 04:18:38 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/06/2007 03:48:54 Are people really so ignorant that they think a 2b-ISK-a-day fountain is a lot and something new? Ever heard of 10/10 complexes? Heard of the Transcranial and Long Limb Roe traderoutes in empire, and some other more recent ones? They all have near-zero risk and similar profits... but because BoB doesn't do them, clearly they're not a problem. [igr]Denial.. ancient river... look into it.[/igr] ALL of those were issues. Just as this is, they are ALL potentially Game breaking, the fact that CCP is so slow to address ALL of them is what is breaking this game. but keep pretending this escalation isnt going to kill Eve. Every time the 'haves' use means unachievable, incontestable and unsplittable by anyone else, the game balance gets farther out of whack. CCP needs to remove the isk and ill gotten returns from ALL of those ****** up isk fountains.. sure doing so will lose all those who benefited from it as they now feel slighted.. but it will at least help level this damn near vertical playing field Eve is rapidly approaching.. (que justifications why their isk fountain is fine from those sitting on the 'upside' of the field) *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.11 04:22:00 - [190] Originally by: sartorii CCP needs to remove the isk and ill gotten returns from ALL of those ****** up isk fountains.. sure doing so will lose all those who benefited from it as they now feel slighted.. but it will at least help level this damn near vertical playing field Eve is rapidly approaching.. I'll agree if CCP takes back the tens of trillions of ISK RA has earned from its dozen or more 10/10 complexes that it farms for 30-40 billion ISK a day with zero risk 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Bloodsong Immortalis Silens FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.11 04:22:00 - [191] I love how if this was a post about ED, Goon, or any other alliance, most of the post would be saying "way to go." Just because "The rich get richer, and the poor stay poor" may apply in this instance, did you ever stop to think that "wow, what a great idea!" Instead of saying that this is an exploit, lets point out the crazy compression ratios of low ends on a certain module that EVERYONE with a carrier uses to transport pyr. Or better yet, if I had a hulk bpo 9 months ago, wouldn't I be expected to charge 500mill for a ship that cost about 40mill to produce? And like whoever it was that brought up pos jump bridges... I know that will be used by just about everyone in the game. So again, why slight someone for thinking of something first and having the assets to do it?
Dimagus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.11 04:43:00 - [192] What the heck do people think titans are supposed to be for? They already got the DD nerfed, now they're complaining about logistics. It's not a multi-billion dollar shinypaperweight, it's supposed to the ultimate attainable resource. The roles and capabilties are supposed to exceed lesser ships and/or add new abilities. That's why it takes the most to build and train for. Trade routes were designed with a limited availability each day, for this particular route it's 1 Million units, with a 2203 profit margin per day. There was no exploit to increase the number units, only the amount available was purchased and resold. Each unit was bought and sold at the market price for that profit margin, the same that's available to everyone. Regardless of gaming or reality, some people always complain when another person has more capability. It doesn't matter if that person earned it, or if the complainer themselves can achieve it after the same commitment and level of dedication. People envy what they don't have but want, and try to get it cheaper and faster without putting in the effort. Titan pilots are in the top 1%, they didn't get a free pass to the Promised Land, they passed Go and collected 200 isk many, many, many times over. Now they own Boardwalk/Park Place complete with motels and making more money than the poor shmucks on Baltic.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:00:00 - [193] Something like this might help a little? We shouldn't be taking the nerfbat to the jump bridge! -- Fix Caldari Fix Insurance
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:17:00 - [194] Originally by: Dimagus What the heck do people think titans are supposed to be for? here is your .03 clue. enjoy it before the escalation hits. Titans/Super Capitals WERE ALWAYS A BAD IDEA. they are the IWIN button in any arena, as already shown militarily, and now as recently shown even in the financial/trade arena. someone on the design staff had no thought or understanding of the long term consequences when they green lighted them.. they literally allow the recreation of themselves WITHOUT risk as they cannot realistically be challenged. (for a variety of reasons not solely related to the ship) Chess is real fun when your opponent gets a new queen every time he moves a (one of many) queen to the last rank while you have to march a pawn the whole way. *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Vile rat GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:45:00 - [195] Originally by: Bloodsong I love how if this was a post about ED, Goon, or any other alliance, most of the post would be saying "way to go." Just because "The rich get richer, and the poor stay poor" may apply in this instance, did you ever stop to think that "wow, what a great idea!" Instead of saying that this is an exploit, lets point out the crazy compression ratios of low ends on a certain module that EVERYONE with a carrier uses to transport pyr. Or better yet, if I had a hulk bpo 9 months ago, wouldn't I be expected to charge 500mill for a ship that cost about 40mill to produce? And like whoever it was that brought up pos jump bridges... I know that will be used by just about everyone in the game. So again, why slight someone for thinking of something first and having the assets to do it? Referring to bob in this is really a distraction because it has little to do with them. They are using a valid game mechanic to make stupid amounts of ISK and thats that. The problem is that a very good argument can be made that this shouldn't be a valid game mechanic and that is the point of this thread - to get attention raised to this tactic so it can be changed.
Alice Cholmondeley Christine.	Posted - 2007.06.11 05:59:00 - [196] Originally by: Vile rat Referring to bob in this is really a distraction because it has little to do with them. They are using a valid game mechanic to make stupid amounts of ISK and thats that. The problem is that a very good argument can be made that this shouldn't be a valid game mechanic and that is the point of this thread - to get attention raised to this tactic so it can be changed. DTja vu. This isn't about BoB but about CCP's integrity! Oh wai...
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:09:00 - [197] Originally by: Alice Cholmondeley Originally by: Vile rat Referring to bob in this is really a distraction because it has little to do with them. They are using a valid game mechanic to make stupid amounts of ISK and thats that. The problem is that a very good argument can be made that this shouldn't be a valid game mechanic and that is the point of this thread - to get attention raised to this tactic so it can be changed. DTja vu. This isn't about BoB but about CCP's integrity! Oh wai... You should warm up before you stretch like that. It'll help prevent cramps. Your signature has been removed due to a lack of EVE-related content. Email [email protected] if you have any questions. Thanks, Hango
Zhalakin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:21:00 - [198] Originally by: B Glorious Originally by: Aeon Yakati Tell me how long it takes to make the ISK to buy the titan BPO? Apparently not long enough if you can make 2.2b by spending less than an hour each day from a single trade route, where there could be many others not yet known to everyone else. Originally by: Aeon Yaketi Tell me how long it takes to mine the minerals for the titan? Why mine when you can just buy the minerals in empire and jump bridge the freighters back to your capital shipyard? How do you want to do that without a titan? Originally by: B Glorious Originally by: Aeon Yaketi Tell me how long it takes to haul the minerals and capital components by t1 industrials (couldnt offload at a POS by freighter at the time) to the POS? This is a lie, there was a bug with freight containers that allowed people to offload from a freighter to a POS like you can now. Obviously I can't prove you were doing it at the time, but I think its pretty damn unlikely that you'd say this without intentionally trying to delude people into thinking that building a titan is oh so difficult and such a painful experience that the only way it can be balanced is for it to have game-breaking abilities after its finished. Bug? You saying we were exploiting now? Originally by: B Glorious Originally by: Aeon Yaketi And 40 mins of jumpbridging? Trust me, it's more like 10 hours in total, and you can multiply that number by 3+ to get the manpower number. But ofcourse it's so much nicer to make an argument using only (and even false) numbers that suit your case and conveniently leave out most of the real facts. Got any proof, shortie? How does it take 10 hours to jump bridge a few freighters seven times? That sounds more like how long it would take to send freighters through normal jump gates sans titan. Seems to me that it would take [1 minute (generating the jump portal) + 1 minute (loading the next system and getting to the new jump portal) + 2 minutes (fudge time doing miscellaneous tasks or hold ups)] x 7 jumps + 2-3 minutes to dock and get all the plutonium together, making for about 30 minutes in ideal conditions. Forty minutes seems pretty reasonable to me, but then again, seeing as how I don't own any titans, you'd be the only one who could provide proof either way, wouldn't you? For the benefit of everyone, please illustrate the entire process of jump bridging multiple freighters to show everyone just how long and painful (and risky) it is to send freighters on the titan express instead of the old-fashioned way. He doesnt need any proof, since anyone with a titan knows how easy they get bumped and how hard it is to get everything within range without doing so. And if you think 7 jumps takes so short a while? are we talking 7 different cyno chars here aswell?(If you think its merely 7 jumps you need to check out how its done again) How about distributing the trade goods and buying them that doesnt take time? You really need to go to 0.0 and see how it is mr altastic. Originally by: B Glorious Originally by: Aeon Yaketi And yeah, I still think you're an waste of my time, alt. Not because of your weak arguments (if they can be called that at all), but because of someone has to counter the spam of goon and alt posts - which really only serve one political purpose (I suppose I don't have to mention the latest scandal here) as anyone can see - in the event a CCP affiliated person reads this and might get dragged in the mobpropaganda. If you are divorced enough from reality to see no problem with this, I think you're a bigger victim of "alliance rhetoric" (to quote a term used by a certain someone) than anyone else here. Join an alliance and see for yourself mr alt.
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:41:00 - [199] Edited by: Alias11 on 11/06/2007 07:43:16 Try again, this time with fewer loaded and rhetorical questions And ditch the ad hominems while your at it, we're discussing the fact that titans can be used, probably unintentionally, to make ordinarily high-risk, high-profit, high-time investment trade runs completely inconsequential, not your crusade about a percieved attack on your honor as an alliance. Get over yourself.
Zhalakin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 07:57:00 - [200] Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 11/06/2007 07:43:16 Try again, this time with fewer loaded and rhetorical questions And ditch the ad hominems while your at it, we're discussing the fact that titans can be used, probably unintentionally, to make ordinarily high-risk, high-profit, high-time investment trade runs completely inconsequential, not your crusade about a percieved attack on your honor as an alliance. Get over yourself. You might aswell be writing "why im cancelling my subsription"
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 08:11:00 - [201] Originally by: Zhalakin Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 11/06/2007 07:43:16 Try again, this time with fewer loaded and rhetorical questions And ditch the ad hominems while your at it, we're discussing the fact that titans can be used, probably unintentionally, to make ordinarily high-risk, high-profit, high-time investment trade runs completely inconsequential, not your crusade about a percieved attack on your honor as an alliance. Get over yourself. You might aswell be writing "why im cancelling my subsription" Are you even reading posts before you just throw crappy burns around, or do you just have a script going. It needs work
JennyCraigSuccessStory Hi Friend	Posted - 2007.06.11 08:37:00 - [202] the BoB responses remind me of the Bush administration trying to spin the Iraq war. lol
Zhalakin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 08:43:00 - [203] Edited by: Zhalakin on 11/06/2007 08:41:59 Originally by: Alias11 Originally by: Zhalakin Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 11/06/2007 07:43:16 Try again, this time with fewer loaded and rhetorical questions And ditch the ad hominems while your at it, we're discussing the fact that titans can be used, probably unintentionally, to make ordinarily high-risk, high-profit, high-time investment trade runs completely inconsequential, not your crusade about a percieved attack on your honor as an alliance. Get over yourself. You might aswell be writing "why im cancelling my subsription" Are you even reading posts before you just throw crappy burns around, or do you just have a script going. It needs work Try again, this time with more knowledge about the trade route, and this was an attack on my alliance as if it had been yours(AHAAHAH) or AAA then this post wouldnt have been here.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 08:49:00 - [204] Crosspost from the other important thread Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 11/06/2007 08:46:31 Originally by: Slayton Ford Not a normal exploit but still something that needs to be addressed and removed asap. You do realize a 10/10 complex yields upwards of 500mil isk a day a run and can be run twice a day? Upwards of 1 bil in profits with an investment less than that and can even be done solo with 1-2 accounts in a couple hours a run? With nearly no risk whatsoever as long as the complex isn't on the front lines. This exactly relates how to an investment of: - 130bil + (70bil goods investment, 7 bil freighters, 50bil titan component mineral requirements and then I'm actually leaving out the actual worth of a titan - labor, time - which would reflect in a 100bil+ titan pricetag on the market) - 30 manhours - 20 cyno characters - considerably risks in rev 2.0 Good for a mere 2 bil profit a day. So we're looking at: 2 characters vs 30 characters, or: 2 accounts vs 20 accounts 4 manhours vs 4.3 hours a day. low risk vs low risk (the latter being seriously nerfed in rev 2.0) 1 bil vs 130+ bil investment. Resulting in: 500+ mil vs 2000 mil profit a day. I'm sure if you look at things from an objective point of view, if any of the two is abusing game mechanics here, it would be the complex farmers exploiting downtime for it's respawn, or at least used to till a little while ago. And one more note to those saying the market mechanics are being abused: A titan isn't supposed to be a solopwnmachine, instead it's a logistical juggernaut. That's what it's being used for right here. Also, there's a fixed amount of NPC demand and supply (expressed in a fixed quantity / 24 hours for playability reasons). Once the amount is met and exceeded by supply and demand respectively, prices drop or climb respectively. This is how it's supposed to work and it has always worked like this in 0.0, unlike empire trade routes which always reset after downtime, no matter the traded volumes. This was finally fixed about a year ago. With the amount of ISK and manpower spent here, I'm sure we - or anyone with a sense for the game for that matter - could come up with even better ways to make money in a less obvious way. Cause that's what this is really about here. Most of the posters here and other threads are merely concerned that it's BoB who's doing it and not them. And when there's something you can't beat ingame (due to lack of determination, organisation, titan and most likely the skillpoints to fly it), the forums remain.
TWD TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 09:07:00 - [205] Well, speaking for the angel 10/10 complex its a bit more than 1b ISK per day :p Full run after DT is 900m ISK on average. Takes ~45 mins to do. Half run at midnight is 400m (~500m when including bounties/salvaged overseers) ISK on average. Takes 30 mins to do. Full run in the morning is 900m ISK on average. Takes ~45 mins to do. This is with 3-4 spec'ed chars. So an angel 10/10 complex gives around 2.2b ISK on average, per day. Although I would go insane when running the complex 3x per day, I have nfi how some ppl can manage that :P This is much easier and requires less people than the process Aeon describes.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 09:15:00 - [206] It's quite ironic to see how the biggest smacker in the thread happens to be the same person running the Immensea 10/10 in B-R5RB and the Impass 10/10 in Z-N9IP. Hypocrisy + a mouth full of words = Amusement
Cringeley GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:04:00 - [207] Complexes can be contested pretty easily. A good complex running group will be able to fight off their opposition, but any time another group can come along and challenge them. This trade route can only be challenged by other people with titans (of which there are relatively few in the game, with one alliance holding more than most other alliances put together) and there isn't really any practical way to threaten the trade route militarily. It is, as others have said, a relatively safe and effortless way for the rich to get richer at a ridiculous rate.
Toppar Wear STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:09:00 - [208] I agree that there is no real risk for the titan and freighter but you can do something about it.. U can fill out the buy order, then it will drop.. If he then starts selling less and making it imposible to for a sigle person to fill the remaining order up, get some more freinds toghter to do the order. When he starts leaving a large amount of the buy order still there he get less and less isk.. Fight it, dont cry while CCP fixes it. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo
TWD TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:18:00 - [209] Originally by: Cringeley Complexes can be contested pretty easily. A good complex running group will be able to fight off their opposition, but any time another group can come along and challenge them. This trade route can only be challenged by other people with titans (of which there are relatively few in the game, with one alliance holding more than most other alliances put together) and there isn't really any practical way to threaten the trade route militarily. It is, as others have said, a relatively safe and effortless way for the rich to get richer at a ridiculous rate. "Relatively safe" and "effortless" is based on assumption. The way Aeon describes it, its not safe and effortless at all. 200b ISK investment in goods carried in destructable ships. Looks like a pretty big risk to me. I get the idea this is yet another goonfleet whine about how unfair life is :[
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.11 10:18:00 - [210] I am pretty sure CCP knows about this. I mean, they must be monitoring the market for bugs etc. and if this was to be considered a bug (enough people complaining about it, perhaps?) then it would have been flagged ages ago. So, BoB goes hand in hand with the devs again? In regard to the past, this wouldn't surprise me one bit, since it's a great way of contributing a lot of ISK to your "favorite" alliance. And to boot, this would be insanely hard to trace back to one of the devs since it's "only" shared information about market price that any player could have found out. Just speculations; nothing more, nothing less. I guess that since the T20-incident the devs will always be guilty until proven otherwise. I'm happily waiting for that day when ordinary players will monitor employee activities, because that's the only way I will be able to regain trust. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."

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