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FGxHalsey Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:18:00 - [241] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Dark Shikari You can do a 10/10 with two characters. Three if you want to do it decently fast. You strongly underestimate RA's expertise at running complexes. And if there's intruders, as RA has proven, you just log off. Okey, we could start a new whine thread about 10/10 plexes being too easy? =) Honestly, what has this to do with anything? Just because 10/10 plexes gives you billions in return, it's not comparable to this trade issue. Why are you working against me when I'm not your opposition? Maybe you just like to make enemies, what do I know =) And I'm sure RA are experts... The whole point of the plex comparison is that since the plexes give similar return with similar effort, they're hardly different from this trade route. If you want to nerf the trade route, by simple logic, you want to nerf 10/10 complexes, unless you are blatantly biased in favor of one alliance over another. 10/10 complexes are getting nerfed. They are getting removed from the game in favor of exploration sites.
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 14:27:00 - [242] Originally by: Dark Shikari Sure they can. Heard of Red Alliance? They've been doing it for well over a year, in vastly greater scale, with 10/10 complexes. Each one earns them 2 billion ISK a day with near-zero risk. But clearly BoB are the bad guys and nobody else could possibly be doing anything wrong. It's been said about a hundred times in this thread but you keep toeing that line like it will make a difference but sweet christ The bugged complexes were fixed, there's no way a regular angel 10/10 is worth 1 billion a run on an average, and they're removing static plexes in the very next patch, a move I am very much in support of so holy crap just please shut up about it
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 18:13:00 - [243] There have been enough costly battles at contested complexes that an argument for 10/10s as trivial and risk-free is either disingenuous or completely ignorant. Additionally, as has been mentioned, the loot from 10/10s is bought by players, using money already circulating in the economy. This trade route in question is pouring new money into the economy, though I'm sure building more Titans is a fantastic ISK sink. Anyone who has ever escorted a freighter should be able to grasp how jumping bridging one between the safety of POSes and stations with a couple of players is completely different from escorting one for 30-some jumps with a gang. Your signature has been removed due to a lack of EVE-related content. Email [email protected] if you have any questions. Thanks, Hango
TWD TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 18:33:00 - [244] Originally by: Alias11 Edited by: Alias11 on 11/06/2007 14:41:00 Originally by: TWD "Relatively safe" and "effortless" is based on assumption. The way Aeon describes it, its not safe and effortless at all. 200b ISK investment in goods carried in destructable ships. Looks like a pretty big risk to me. I get the idea this is yet another goonfleet whine about how unfair life is :[ Where, in the jump bridging between docking range and pos bubbles, are those freighters at serious risk? Its at risk to people with imagination, which unfortunately excludes your alliance.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.11 19:26:00 - [245] Needs fixing, seriously. Make the market rebalance with so many oerders a day, this seems worse then the T2 BPO thingy to print isk...now we know where that inflation comes from..
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.11 20:45:00 - [246] Originally by: TWD Its at risk to people with imagination, which unfortunately excludes your alliance. Apparently yours, too, since Evil Thug still has his flying about, and Tom McCash, and the third one. All of them are active, so I guess they're at risk to people with imagination, too. Just because nobody's thought of a way to kill it doesn't mean there is a way to actually kill it, barring dead pilots or gypsy curses
Mr Bananas Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.11 21:23:00 - [247] Originally by: TWD I get the idea this is yet another goonfleet whine about how unfair life is :[ You will perceive even the most unquestionably legitimate issues as pointless whining if it is disfavorable to your alliance, which is why this thread is intended for other readers.
Mud Pandemonium Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.12 00:01:00 - [248] Originally by: Mr Bananas You will perceive even the most unquestionably legitimate issues as pointless whining if it is disfavorable to your alliance, which is why this thread is intended for other readers. Originally by: Alias11 It's been said about a hundred times in this thread but you keep toeing that line like it will make a difference but sweet christ The bugged complexes were fixed, there's no way a regular angel 10/10 is worth 1 billion a run on an average, and they're removing static plexes in the very next patch, a move I am very much in support of so holy crap just please shut up about it. Point. Originally by: Sadist Near-zero risk? DB preacher begs to differ! Point. Originally by: FGxHalsey 10/10 complexes are getting nerfed. They are getting removed from the game in favor of exploration sites. Point. Originally by: Aramendel Also, one major difference here is that plexes only introduce relatively little new isk into the system. Such titan assisted trade routes profit is 100% new isk. Inflation is already a serious problem in eve. We do not need more money printers Point. Originally by: Snowden Vel There have been enough costly battles at contested complexes that an argument for 10/10s as trivial and risk-free is either disingenuous or completely ignorant. Additionally, as has been mentioned, the loot from 10/10s is bought by players, using money already circulating in the economy. This trade route in question is pouring new money into the economy, though I'm sure building more Titans is a fantastic ISK sink Point. BoB, this isn't about you or your alliance, this is about something that is bad for EVE regardless of who is doing it. It doesn't matter if it's AAA, Goonswarm, IAC, etc. This won't last long, it can't last long. If CCP has any sense at all they'll rectify this issue. There is no way in hell that something that injects this much ISK into the game risk free should be available. Stop harping about 10/10 plexes, it's been changed and has been changed, the ISK involved with 10/10 plexes is just changing hands, not being generated by an NPC. Stop harping about how there is risk involved, there isn't. Titans are virtually invincible unless outside issues affect the pilot. Being locked down for 60 seconds is meaningless given the fact that nobody could mount an offensive to take it down in this time. Your freighters can dock in a moments notice! If you cared anything for EVE Online as a community and a game you'd drop the whole "We're BoB, we're victims of everyones hated" schtick and realize that this is bad for EVE. Stop being blinded by your loyalty to your alliance and think about the game as a whole. Look at it from a single players aspect. We had our words, a common spat. So I kissed him upside the cranium with an aluminum baseball bat. My name is Mud.
Rivek Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.06.12 02:08:00 - [249] None of the "pro freighter jumping for uber trade route isk faucet" supporters has responsed to my question: Is this balanced in terms of risk vs effort vs reward?
Reverend Hazlett Gallente Tok'Ra Inc Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.06.12 02:17:00 - [250] I skipped the last five pages of this thread, I feel I had read the same post over and over and just wanted to drop my two cents in: - If you trade with a frigate, you invest only a little ISK, and you only make little ISK. - If you trade with an indy, you invest a little more ISK, and you make more ISK. - If you trade with a freighter, you invest alot of ISK, and you make a lot of ISK. - If you trade with a fleet of freighters, you invest an ungodly mountain of ISK, and in return you make a ton of ISK. Just like everyone else here, I'm envious of this profit margin, and wish I could get in on it, but be realistic. I do understand how this trade route apears biased to the EVE-Elite, but keep in mind also that CCP probably didn't review the ENTIRE MARKET just to make sure the 7-ish Titan pilots didn't find an ISK faucet that... in all honesty functions on their level of investment. As far as the inflation goes... I only hope that Orange is buying minerals / whatever from NPC's so that money dissapears again. My tutorial for new players ( work in progress ) [here].

JennyCraigSuccessStory Hi Friend	Posted - 2007.06.12 02:55:00 - [251] Edited by: JennyCraigSuccessStory on 12/06/2007 02:54:35 I thought CCP hired an economist.... wonder what he would say about an individual with a money-printing machine. Can't be good for the economy. If anything, the IRS would be investigating about this abuse.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.06.12 03:04:00 - [252] Originally by: Hey You Even if it is Invulnerable It is LEGIT! So now you can go and whine about it all day long. Now that's a great attitude. Game balance? EVE economy? Hell, screw it. If that's a common BoB scheme of thought the 'help' some people provide in improving and balancing the game by using direct lines must be indeed awesome.. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Mud Pandemonium Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.12 03:07:00 - [253] Edited by: Mud Pandemonium on 12/06/2007 03:07:26 Originally by: Reverend Hazlett I skipped the last five pages of this thread, I feel I had read the same post over and over and just wanted to drop my two cents in: You shouldn't have skipped the pages, seems you've missed alot of points that would have knocked the teeth out of your logic. You simply can't relate trading with a frigate or any other ship to this, trading with any other ship involves risk. They're using a titan to jump in freighters, huge profits with absolutely 0 risk. The logical process of this would be. Frigate - little profit, little risk. Freighters - great profit, immense risk Jump bridging multiple freighters - amazing profit, insane risk. Unfortunately, it's amazing profit, absolutely no risk. The jump bridge effectively nullifies the risk at all, the fact that the titan simply can't be destroyed and that the freighters are never in harms way are proof of this. If you've been paying attention at all to the current EVE market you'd realize that things are crashing. A few reasons being a flood of minerals on to the market from ISK farmers, invention and unregulated ISK faucets like this one which inject ISK in to the game without accounting for it at all. In a player generated market the last thing we need is an NPC coughing up copious amounts of currency. We had our words, a common spat. So I kissed him upside the cranium with an aluminum baseball bat. My name is Mud.
Dimagus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.12 05:01:00 - [254] Quote: Frigate - little profit, little risk. Freighters - great profit, immense risk Jump bridging multiple freighters - amazing profit, insane risk. Should be: Freighters - great profit, immense risk Multiple freighters - amazing profit, insane risk. Multiple freighters w/ Titan support - amazing profit, reduced risk.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 07:33:00 - [255] Edited by: Xedrik on 12/06/2007 07:32:18 Originally by: Dimagus Should be: Freighters - great profit, immense risk Multiple freighters - amazing profit, insane risk. Multiple freighters w/ Titan support - amazing profit, reduced risk. Who, in the right state of mind, would escort a bunch of freighters through 40 jumps with a Titan? --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 07:37:00 - [256] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 12/06/2007 07:32:18 Originally by: Dimagus Should be: Freighters - great profit, immense risk Multiple freighters - amazing profit, insane risk. Multiple freighters w/ Titan support - amazing profit, reduced risk. Who, in the right state of mind, would escort a bunch of freighters through 40 jumps with a Titan? Yesterday's CMO Interview: "Magnus: First, Titans have the Doomsday Device, which obliterates smaller ships. But Titans arenÆt actually combat ships. Their main purpose has more to do with transportation. Titans can open up jump portals that other ships can travel through. When the bigger alliances want to start moving a large fleet, they can really get going because of the Titan. The alliance, Band of Brothers, is doing this really well, and now some of the other alliances are starting to pick up on those strategies too."
Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 07:47:00 - [257] Edited by: Xedrik on 12/06/2007 07:47:53 Originally by: Aeon Yakati "Magnus: First, Titans have the Doomsday Device, which obliterates smaller ships. But Titans arenÆt actually combat ships. Their main purpose has more to do with transportation. Titans can open up jump portals that other ships can travel through. When the bigger alliances want to start moving a large fleet, they can really get going because of the Titan. The alliance, Band of Brothers, is doing this really well, and now some of the other alliances are starting to pick up on those strategies too." Where in that quote does it say anything about jump bridging freighters? Everything else in that quote is more or less common knowledge to most players. Edit: You didn't give me an answer to my question anyway, so why post quoting my question? --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 07:49:00 - [258] Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 12/06/2007 07:51:58 Edited. It's not 27 billion isk, but 35 billion ISK. Originally by: JennyCraigSuccessStory Edited by: JennyCraigSuccessStory on 12/06/2007 02:54:35 I thought CCP hired an economist.... wonder what he would say about an individual with a money-printing machine. Can't be good for the economy. If anything, the IRS would be investigating about this abuse. Have you got any idea how much ISK is injected into EVE daily? http://eve.grismar.net/complexes/ Let's look at complexes for instance. There's approximatelly 16 10/10's and 32 6/10's. A 6/10 gives you 300 million worth of overseer effects a run and can be done twice easily. A 10/10 should be good for at least 500 million worth of overseer effects. These can only be sold to empire NPC's. Since most of these complexes are run at least twice a day, let's find out how much ISK they create: 32 x 300 million x 2 + 16 x 500 million x 2 = 35 billion ISK. Since not all of these are run twice a day, I left out all the 8/10's, 7/10's in the equation. The real figure should not be lower than that in any case. That's 27 billion ISK created a day solely by complexes, and I'm not even getting started on an empire full of LVL 4 mission runners etcetera. 2 billion ISK for an investment of more than a hundred billion ISK and a corp effort involving 30 characters is really just a measy profit, realistically. Anyone saying we're the source of EVE's inflation lacks the skills to put things into perspective. The fact that we've been doing this trade route with relative easy does not mean there's no risk. It rather means no one has even tried to stop us, mostly because they just did not know what we're doing. And lastly, killing isn't the only option to stop us from doing it. Ever heard of a blockade (with capitals)? Now that you have this knowledge, why don't you take it ingame?
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 07:51:00 - [259] Originally by: Xedrik Edited by: Xedrik on 12/06/2007 07:47:53 Originally by: Aeon Yakati "Magnus: First, Titans have the Doomsday Device, which obliterates smaller ships. But Titans arenÆt actually combat ships. Their main purpose has more to do with transportation. Titans can open up jump portals that other ships can travel through. When the bigger alliances want to start moving a large fleet, they can really get going because of the Titan. The alliance, Band of Brothers, is doing this really well, and now some of the other alliances are starting to pick up on those strategies too." Where in that quote does it say anything about jump bridging freighters? Everything else in that quote is more or less common knowledge to most players. Edit: You didn't give me an answer to my question anyway, so why post quoting my question? Let me post it again for you: "But Titans arenÆt actually combat ships. Their main purpose has more to do with transportation. Titans can open up jump portals that *other ships* can travel through." A freighter != A titan A ship can be a freighter. And to answer you question, I guess we would?
Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 07:55:00 - [260] Originally by: Aeon Yakati Let's look at complexes for instance. Enough with the complexes already! It's not comparable! And most of the ISK earned from a complex comes from other players paying for loot or salvage. And secondly, complexes are getting nerfed, so it has already been taken care of! You could have taken pirate bounties in general as a example, but bringing up the story about complexes and comparing it to jump bridging freighters is just stupid! Before slapping others about, read up on the subject. Or else you just make yourself a target of your own slaps. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."

Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:00:00 - [261] Edited by: Xedrik on 12/06/2007 07:59:23 Originally by: Aeon Yakati A freighter != A titan A ship can be a freighter. And to answer you question, I guess we would? This discussion haven't been about if a freighter is a ship or not, because that's something we all know the answer to. What people are upset about is why Titans are allowed to jump bridge freighters, because of the the near zero-risk involved. And about my question, I don't think you got it. It was more or less a question that would be asked if freighters couldn't be jump bridged, thus being forced to jump through 40 gates. Who, in the right state of mind, would escort them with a Titan (which means the titan has to do 40 jumps of it's own into each of the systems consuming fuel for each one of them)? Edit: Spelling mistake --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:01:00 - [262] Originally by: Xedrik And most of the ISK earned from a complex comes from other players paying for loot or salvage. I responded in that post to Jenny: Originally by: JennyCraigSuccessStory Edited by: JennyCraigSuccessStory on 12/06/2007 02:54:35 I thought CCP hired an economist.... wonder what he would say about an individual with a money-printing machine. She's saying it's a ISK printing machine. New ISK that comes from NPC's, not from players. If I had included complex loot, more ISK would have been involved but the ISK created would have remained the same. Reading 4tw I guess. Quote: And secondly, complexes are getting nerfed, so it has already been taken care of! Yes, so are titans. They are getting nerfed too. They can no longer use their DDD in the event of a trap.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:10:00 - [263] Originally by: Xedrik Originally by: Aeon Yakati Let's look at complexes for instance. Enough with the complexes already! It's not comparable! And most of the ISK earned from a complex comes from other players paying for loot or salvage. And secondly, complexes are getting nerfed, so it has already been taken care of! You could have taken pirate bounties in general as a example, but bringing up the story about complexes and comparing it to jump bridging freighters is just stupid! Before slapping others about, read up on the subject. Or else you just make yourself a target of your own slaps. The only one who hasn't read up on the subject is you here. I said it in my former reply already, but in case you misread that too I was comparing ISK injection only. Not player ISK trading. If you say comparing trading to getting bounties is OK, then comparing it to selling complex overseer effects to NPC's would be surely OK too as it's really just player vs NPC interaction. But yea, enough with the complexes already, this isn't about a serious discussion, it's about BoB
Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:13:00 - [264] Originally by: Aeon Yakati She's saying it's a ISK printing machine. New ISK that comes from NPC's, not from players. If I had included complex loot, more ISK would have been involved but the ISK created would have remained the same. How can you read something that was said? Or wait... She wrote it right? She didn't say it? Uhm... English ftw =) Anyway, enough of this macho bull** crap. Let's take this to a more mature level and skip the "who got the biggest e-peen"-attitude. In regard to Jenny's statement, I know what she wrote, and as I said in my earlier respond that has to do with pirate bounties in general and not just with complexes, anything else earned (the majority) from complexes comes from other players, thus not injecting much new ISK. And most of the ISK earned are spent on player made items anyway. However, 2.2bil ISK from NPC to NPC trade, everyday (and that's just one trade route). That's hell of a lot of injected ISK for nearly no time spent or risk involved. Can you see the difference? Quote:** Yes, so are titans. They are getting nerfed too. They can no longer use their DDD in the event of a trap. How does this stop Titans from jump bridging freighters? Please, keep to the subject. --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:16:00 - [265] Originally by: Xedrik How can you read something that was said? Or wait... She wrote it right? She didn't say it? Uhm... English ftw =) Then: Quote: I know what she wrote, and as I said in my earlier respond... You do know you're a muppet in disguise, don't you? Talking about being mature, then nitpicking on semantics while doing it yourself No mature argument with you to be had, unfortunately.
Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:19:00 - [266] Originally by: Aeon Yakati The only one who hasn't read up on the subject is you here. beep Wrong! Originally by: Aeon Yakati I was comparing ISK injection only. Not player ISK trading. If you say comparing trading to getting bounties is OK, then comparing it to selling complex overseer effects to NPC's would be surely OK too as it's really just player vs NPC interaction. Compare as much as you like, as long as you stick to the subject and bring something new to the discussion that haven't been pointed out before. Originally by: Aeon Yakati But yea, enough with the complexes already, this isn't about a serious discussion, it's about BoB Oh really? If so, then I guess there's no reason for me to continue discussing. I really don't have any interest in BoB... I'm more interested about the flawed game mechanics. Tune down that ego for me, will ye? Not everything revolve around BoB ya know =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:20:00 - [267] Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 12/06/2007 08:22:06 Originally by: Xedrik In regard to Jenny's statement, I know what she wrote, and as I said in my earlier respond that has to do with pirate bounties in general and not just with complexes, anything else earned (the majority) from complexes comes from other players, thus not injecting much new ISK. I don't care about the ISK coming off players, Overseer Effects can only be sold to NPC's, resulting in a 35 billion ISK injection. How can you possibly dare to say it's not injecting much new ISK? 35 billion all new ISK. Quote: And most of the ISK earned are spent on player made items anyway. What does the spending have to do with anything here?? Also, spending the ISK from NPC's on player items inflates economy. Spending on NPC items (non trade good) deflates economy. You're really grasping for straws here, it's almost not funny anymore.
Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:20:00 - [268] Originally by: Aeon Yakati Talking about being mature, then nitpicking on semantics while doing it yourself No mature argument with you to be had, unfortunately. Hey, you started it =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Xedrik Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:28:00 - [269] Originally by: Aeon Yakati How can you possibly dare to say it's not injecting much new ISK? I didn't? That's as much of an ISK injection as it can be. However, there's one huge difference, and it's the time and effort spent on getting them (time+effort=isk), so it can be seen as a salary or a bonus paid out for your efforts helping to get rid of the overseers. The jump bridge trading effectiveness however, is outmatching that injection by miles, that's where the problem lie. Quote: What does the spending have to do with anything here?? You answered that one yourself? "spending on player items inflates economy. Spending on NPC items (non trade good) deflates economy." - But, I was wrong on the point that it was something positive (at least I can admit it) =) --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.12 08:38:00 - [270] Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 12/06/2007 08:42:36 Originally by: Xedrik But, I was wrong on the point that it was something positive (at least I can admit it) =) How about you also admit your arguments and facts are spinning around like a wheel? In reply 253 Jenny mentions ISK injection. In reply 260 I respond to that saying there's far worse ISK injections. in reply 262 you claim "And most of the ISK earned from a complex comes from other players paying for loot or salvage" in relpy 264 I prove your claim that most of the ISK coming from players as false. In reply 266 you then respond to that with a semantics thing while doing the exact same thing, while wanting to have a more mature discussion! You also claim that "anything else earned (the majority) from complexes comes from other players, thus not injecting much new ISK. And most of the ISK earned are spent on player made items anyway." - Something I had proved false already in reply 264. In reply 268 you reply saying I should stick to the subject. In reply 269 I point out once more that the ISK injection is anything but "not .. much new ISK" as you claimed in reply 266. In reply 271 you now claim the ISK injection coming from complexes is salary or a bonus even (and thus imply it should be treated differently) Feels like a rollercoaster



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