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Why EVE is doomed to walk the lonley path like Asherons Call

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Kirell	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:48:00 - [1] As many people know Asherons Call was a great game, first of it's kind with a new feel and a new way of doing nearly everything. It had a strong community, and a good subscribership at it's peak having to open a new server every few months to deal with the load. Alas after so much tim ein the Sun, Asherons Call perished (I'm sure AC2 bombing helped it as well) Except for a few loyal followers AC fell into the past. EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. Now the reason why I say it is doomed.... Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community. Now no matter what BoB accomplishes, even if they eventually control all of 0.0 space, or 90% of it or whatever they will have this hang over thier heads, and never truly be able to have thier accomplishment respected by players in game ( at least those that oppose BoB) But this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" And while EVE still remains a great game, with alot of great things to come, I believe that in the not so distant future it will be joining Asherons Call on that lonely road, I am sure there will be the regular followers, the fanboi's of CCP trying to keep it alive, but with MMO's multiplying faster than rabbits people will move elsewhere quickly. Maybe you don't feel that way, which is good in some ways, or maybe you don't care.... it's no matter this is just my thoughts on EVE onlines future sustainability as a competetive MMO in the future to come. And no.... this isn't a BoB thread... Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Discuss, please avoid flaming. all VALID opinions welcome.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:50:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:52:47 Quote: As many people know Asherons Call was a great game, first of it's kind with a new feel and a new way of doing nearly everything. It had a strong community, and a good subscribership at it's peak having to open a new server every few months to deal with the load. Alas after so much tim ein the Sun, Asherons Call perished (I'm sure AC2 bombing helped it as well) Except for a few loyal followers AC fell into the past. EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. Now the reason why I say it is doomed.... Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely Red Alliance) have reached far more than just the EVE community. Now no matter what Red Alliance accomplishes, even if they eventually control all of 0.0 space, or 90% of it or whatever they will have this hang over thier heads, and never truly be able to have thier accomplishment respected by players in game ( at least those that oppose Red Alliance) But this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" And while EVE still remains a great game, with alot of great things to come, I believe that in the not so distant future it will be joining Asherons Call on that lonely road, I am sure there will be the regular followers, the fanboi's of CCP trying to keep it alive, but with MMO's multiplying faster than rabbits people will move elsewhere quickly. Maybe you don't feel that way, which is good in some ways, or maybe you don't care.... it's no matter this is just my thoughts on EVE onlines future sustainability as a competetive MMO in the future to come. And no.... this isn't a Red Alliance thread... Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Discuss, please avoid flaming. all VALID opinions welcome. See, its like mad libs, it makes just as much sense! Tomorrow, we can use "Sparta Alliance" or "Kleptomaniacs"! (P.S. Subscription numbers are rising faster than ever, last I heard) 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
The Ratfink Itto-Ryu Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:52:00 - [3] IBDS oh godammit he beats everyone again!
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:52:00 - [4] Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 AC is still not dead i was big wiz on frostfell and wish-bone on DT, i played that bloody game for 6 years so i rather know the game you talk about... the difference is the playerbase. it was incredibly dedicated but SMALL in AC... they didnt pass much above 100k subbed users. only common point was that it was hardcore and a killer to start. not one of those "take my hand" minesweepers like WoW AC2 never lived, period i dont agree eve and AC are similar at all, nor in the community nor in the game no real player interaction in AC. you could sit on friends mansion for ages, its still their mansion. collect their corpse is all you can do in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. thats a different image :p ------
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:53:00 - [5] Originally by: Kirell Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Depending on the severity it's grounds for instant termination of their contract/job. What boundaries do you expect? Execution? Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Sharupak	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:56:00 - [6] They probably got their info from mmorpg.com which is full of misinfo about games from people that play the trial and then whine.
Galmar Grief	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:57:00 - [7] I see the argument you're making but you're forgetting "Internal Affairs" now exists, I can only guess that they either made this in a last ditch attempt to make players happy or that cheating really was / is that rampant. In anycase, this thread is kinda pointless, if EVE is dying it'll die, if not it'll grow, I guess we'll see, but for the time being I'm happyish.
Snake Jankins Minmatar Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Kirell I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" Yesterday we had over 30.000 and it's summertime for the northern hemisphere, where most subscribers live. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Kirell	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:57:00 - [9] First this isn't a topic about "cheating" it's about CCP's own employees being too involved with player alliances and thus tarnishing the image of CCP's fair play within it's own game. second, AC is dead. I tried to play it a few months back just for kicks. they have 1500 current subscribers and are considering pulling the plug. AC had a great community, obviously you never found anyone to do anything with. I played AC for 4 years myself (with a few breaks) No, not a goon alt.... at least not that I was aware of. I don't own any T1 ships.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:58:00 - [10] People who believe propaganda, things told on the internet or me, should go have a CAT scan So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:57:33 Originally by: Kirell First this isn't a topic about "cheating" it's about CCP's own employees being too involved with player alliances and thus tarnishing the image of CCP's fair play within it's own game. Because clearly, a single BoB member joking about MSNing a dev and another single employee cheating while part of an alliance and getting disciplined for it is proof that CCP is getting way too involved with alliances. What next? The static complex removal in Revelations II was clearly an attack on RA: CCP MUST BE BOB ALTS! 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Alice Cholmondeley Christine.	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Kirell As many people know Asherons Call was a great game, first of it's kind with a new feel and a new way of doing nearly everything. It had a strong community, and a good subscribership at it's peak having to open a new server every few months to deal with the load. Alas after so much tim ein the Sun, Asherons Call perished (I'm sure AC2 bombing helped it as well) Except for a few loyal followers AC fell into the past. EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. Now the reason why I say it is doomed.... Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community. Now no matter what BoB accomplishes, even if they eventually control all of 0.0 space, or 90% of it or whatever they will have this hang over thier heads, and never truly be able to have thier accomplishment respected by players in game ( at least those that oppose BoB) But this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" And while EVE still remains a great game, with alot of great things to come, I believe that in the not so distant future it will be joining Asherons Call on that lonely road, I am sure there will be the regular followers, the fanboi's of CCP trying to keep it alive, but with MMO's multiplying faster than rabbits people will move elsewhere quickly. Maybe you don't feel that way, which is good in some ways, or maybe you don't care.... it's no matter this is just my thoughts on EVE onlines future sustainability as a competetive MMO in the future to come. And no.... this isn't a BoB thread... Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Discuss, please avoid flaming. all VALID opinions welcome. Just because you hide your message (read; whine) in alot of text doesn't mean no one will recognize the goon in you.
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:59:00 - [13] I think Pirates of the Burning Sea is going to hurt this game a lot if it is as successful as it appears it may (once it FINALLY gets released... rant rant rant...). Either way, I think EVE is definitely improving as a game though... I'm a returning quitter, and although I originally intended to play only until PotBS was released, but since deciding that, I have opened a second account, and have declared that barring total collapse of EVE, I'm going to have to budget my time between the two games, as EVE is just such an amazing and unique universe. I've yet to be directly affected by BoB... I'm one of those guys who makes his home in a 0.5 as close to 0.0 as possible so I have somewhere to run. But either way, I think that even BoB itself contributes to the scale of this game - that an alliance SO massive with SO MANY RESOURCES can still have no direct effect on a large group of players. Not many games can claim that their players actually have an effect on each other even indirectly, but this game has a lot of power in that regard. Have hope - this game has as bright a future as can shine in the darkness of space :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:59:00 - [14] CCP didn't tarnish it's reputations. Several customers did. And yeah it's bad for business. But EVE isn't even close to going the AC way. So I wouldn't worry about it.
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:00:00 - [15] I don't know much about AC but you've failed to describe it adequately or how it is similar to Eve in any respect aside from circumstancial subscriber numbers Khaldari
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:01:00 - [16] I have opposed BoB in the past and no doubt will again in the future and I fully respect BoB for both their achievements and skill in game. I'm also man enough to take defeat without whining about cheating and victory without hitting the forums like billy big-*******s. Many others in this game play the same way. More people should try it, Bitterness rarely helps. ------------------
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Alice Cholmondeley Originally by: Kirell snip. Just because you hide your message (read; whine) in alot of text doesn't mean no one will recognize the goon in you. Says the BoB-alt Anyway, CCP did take a huge hit on their reputation undoubtedly from all this. Recovering from it will take time, and the experience will hopefully be a powerful reminder for CCP and all its employees to act responsibly. Assuming CCP has cleaned up its act, it should be able to recover over time though. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:07:00 - [18] Eve is like AC in that the pvp is awesome, and meaningful. You get to kill people and take their stuff. I said "get". I'd love to see a new fantasy mmo with murder for profit and a engine that doesn't look like a saturday morning cartoon. I just wish the other game developers would nut the hell up and add consequence laden pvp and not just ape WoW. Even the conan mmo will give you some damned tokens for pvp instead of real plunder. Robert Howard rolls in his grave and I weep with sadness. Like AC, eve will still be around in years after most of the memberbase leaves. Darktide still lives, so shall tranquility.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:08:00 - [19] EvE is known a lot more as a Griefer's Paradise than "Devs Cheating". Griefing (or perceived griefing) has kept more players away than Goon propaganda ever will. Do some searches on the Internet and Griefing in online games == EvE. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:09:00 - [20] When all else fails, accuse opponent of "whining".

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 14:10:16 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Alice Cholmondeley Originally by: Kirell snip. Just because you hide your message (read; whine) in alot of text doesn't mean no one will recognize the goon in you. Says the BoB-alt Anyway, CCP did take a huge hit on their reputation undoubtedly from all this. Recovering from it will take time, and the experience will hopefully be a powerful reminder for CCP and all its employees to act responsibly. Assuming CCP has cleaned up its act, it should be able to recover over time though. I agree with this partly; CCP obviously did take a reputation hit from this and they will recover, but I don't think it was a very large one; going by the comments on many off-EVE sites that discussed this, most people (read: people who have never played EVE) saw the word "Goon" and laughed off the accusations completely given the reputation of SomethingAwful. If anything, I'd say that those playing the game probably lost a lot more confidence in CCP than those who aren't EVE veterans... myself included. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Frygok Minmatar Mean Anglo-Danes	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:17:00 - [22] You really like using Red Alliance as an example of a cheating alliance, eh DS? Am I just seeing things, or do you comment all these threads about BoB with stuff about Red Alliance?
LunaticWithCandy	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:22:00 - [23] Edited by: LunaticWithCandy on 21/06/2007 14:21:16 As a new player to the game can someone point me in the direction of a thread/history explaining the "BoB Incident"?
HAL 9000	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:25:00 - [24] As others have said, AC isn't dead; you can still play. It's had a very good run. As for the CCP/BoB business, my newb friends don't seem to care at all, and the new ombudsman program seems pretty reassuring in any case. In fact, the BoB controversy generated new interest in the game among my guild-members, several of whom have signed up within the last few weeks. From my vantage-point, at least, this is an example where there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Frygok You really like using Red Alliance as an example of a cheating alliance, eh DS? Am I just seeing things, or do you comment all these threads about BoB with stuff about Red Alliance? Because they are the most well-known alliance to use blatant exploits (read: multiple trillions of ISK cheated from bugged 8/10 complexes). There are plenty of others, of course, but they're the most well known and public. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Vitrael Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:29:00 - [26] In the future, can we just lock all topics that have to do with Eve "dying"? Thanks. ----------
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:38:00 - [27] I've had several freinds refuse to try EVE because they heard about the integrity issues. Most recently though, right before the patch a buddy d/led the trial. He told me he tried to mine for 2 or 3 hours, but every mining cycle he'd only get 1 unit of ore, and assumed he needed to mine for several hours for the tutorial. He said other noob pilots had the same issue. He quit and deleted the game, and when I told him something wasn't right, he didn't want to hear it. His words, "I want to play a game to have fun, not to get angry, and that made me angry".
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:58:09 Hi goon! See, its like mad libs, it makes just as much sense! Tomorrow, we can use "Sparta Alliance" or "Kleptomaniacs"! (P.S. Subscription numbers are rising faster than ever, last I heard) omfg, I can't believe I'm gonna reply to a dark shikari post!!!! He is teh Pwnzor!? Ahem.... Dark, if this is true, then why did CCP drop the server load graph they used to have on the site? When I started eve (a week before the 'scandal') numbers were always in the 30k+ range after I got back from work. These days they average out at less than 30K: this is a noticable drop in userbase. I don't believe EVE will fade like asheron, since EVE is a unique game in many rights, but the 'scandal' has hurt CCPs rep and the trust it's clients have in the game as a valid entertainment product. I also firmly believe that the independant committee is nothing more than a pacifier. Eve, however, wont die soon!!! NEVER! p.s. DS -> your sigs rule. I laugh at em every time. ----------------------------------------------- "LowSec Pirates are like the seagulls in Finding Nemo: instead if "mine! mine!" all they do is yell "gank! gank!" in local." In short: brainless
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Vitrael In the future, can we just lock all topics that have to do with Eve "dying"? Thanks. No. Thanks.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:43:00 - [30] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 14:42:35 Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:58:09 Hi goon! See, its like mad libs, it makes just as much sense! Tomorrow, we can use "Sparta Alliance" or "Kleptomaniacs"! (P.S. Subscription numbers are rising faster than ever, last I heard) omfg, I can't believe I'm gonna reply to a dark shikari post!!!! He is teh Pwnzor!? Ahem.... Dark, if this is true, then why did CCP drop the server load graph they used to have on the site? When I started eve (a week before the 'scandal') numbers were always in the 30k+ range after I got back from work. Because it was bugged. The old one had a bug where it always showed zero at the 1 hour mark no matter what the player population was. Server numbers are still in the 30k range all the time from my experience. CCP has stated that subscriber numbers are approaching 200k (from the previous 165k), so that's a rise in subscriptions. What it means is we're getting more casual players, or more players in other time zones. Edit: Actually the graph is still linked from the main page, suggesting that "removing" it was an accident; they probably broke the code instead. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!

Idrift Caldari Saltavarian Shadow Knights	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:43:00 - [31] Asheron's Call was my first... MMORPG. I played for over five years and will always have fond memories of the game and community. Osmenthe! AC2 never lived because they released it to meeet a deadline. There were bugs but what really killed it was the lack of content. They fixed those problems but the damage had been done. Now Turbine is handling LOTR online and doing a much better job from what I hear. The main similarity between Eve and AC would be the AC server Darktide with it's griefing and general immaturity. Beyond that they are very different games in almost every way and Turbine and CCP are very different companies. I would like to think all MMORPG companies could learn a thing or two from how Turbine handled bugs and exploits. If anything Turbine may have been too open and understanding about that sort of thing but even they had their limits, like deleting all the Nexus armor on Darktide. Some people are just absolutely hung up on the fact that a CCP employee did wrong and they are never going to forgive CCP for it. Never. Either let it go and move on and have fun playing the game, or just leave. But to keep beating the ashes of the dead horse just is not healthy, for the complainers or for the game.
Frygok Minmatar Mean Anglo-Danes	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Frygok You really like using Red Alliance as an example of a cheating alliance, eh DS? Am I just seeing things, or do you comment all these threads about BoB with stuff about Red Alliance? Because they are the most well-known alliance to use blatant exploits (read: multiple trillions of ISK cheated from bugged 8/10 complexes). There are plenty of others, of course, but they're the most well known and public. Do you have proof of the entire Red Alliance exploiting? Or are you just generalising the entire alliance on actions of individuals? One should think that we had learned not to accuse entire entities for what individuals do. I know BoB seems tired of it.
Pehova Mindtriq Endgame.	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:44:00 - [33] A friend that used to play eve said he thought about returning to eve because wow was boring as hell. Then the scandal of dev cheating acame and he kept playing wow because of it. He still says that damn game is boring but he can't quit it I don't think eve is dying because of this though. There is a very loyal playerbase in this community and ccp is always adding new (free) content which will keep us interested.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:44:00 - [34] As a former AC player of the same name... I beg to differ with the OP... But first... a few points... Dark Shikari, got a couple of questions for you... 1) Did T20 cheat? 2) What Alliance was he in at the time? 3) Was he in a position of power in that alliance at the time? As I don't interact with Bob or the Goons or any low sec space for that matter (if I can help it), it did not affect me and will continue not to affect me, but it did happen. That there are a few fools on both sides means it will keep getting brought up (feeding the bears). That an Alliance, Corp or Group of players cheated is much less of an issue then a Developer cheatingà a percentage of the player base is expected to try to cheatà as they get nabbed, lets hope they go away, itÆs the companyÆs job to find and punish them, not to be them. Back to the OP... AC went for years with out Advertisement... with no availability for new players... when they responded to the customers it was slow late and normally based on some vocal minority... not based on the majority of the community... there was no Developer "Misconduct" in AC, more of a malfeasance... perhaps if the developers were more in tune with the community (as they seem to be in CCP/Eve) some of those mistakes would not have been made. AC is still going, perhaps not strong, but it's still going, but unlike the past, when AC was all that kept AC2 servers running (AC2 was a fine example of tossing out the baby and keeping the bath water) now it's LOTRO and DDO helping to pay for AC... while I no longer play, it will be a sad day when they pull the plug. We humans have a problem with our memories, much of what we remember is flat out wrong, much of what we fail to remember are the lessons of the past... ignoring the truth is a skill we are all given at level V almost from birth. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:46:00 - [35] CCP took a credibility hit, that's for sure. They are attempting to regain trust, but that is not yet accomplished. Any regained trust will be at a huge cost, and I'm sorry but there has not yet been the Draconian measures needed to get that trust going. For example, in ANY other industry/business that I've ever seen, T20 would have been FIRED IMMEADIATELY. Fired as in 'Give me your keys, your passwords are already changed, and its this way to the parking lot.' I honestly don't care about the individual - he breached the trust of the Company, and that is not forgivable. Still, he was 'diciplined' but kept around. Sorry, CCP, but that just is not gonna restore ANY confidence - in fact it feeds the Conspiracy Theorists. So as the OP suggests, CCP's actions/inactions have spread beyond those who actually know EVE. That will indeed cause a loss of subscriptions. I don't know if it will kill EVE, but each snippet of Bob Favoritism certainly causes more damage. To the players of Eve, I suggest the only way to restore confidence in CCP is to utterly destroy Bob. Obviously CCP wouldn't do it for us (can you say Affirmative Action?), so we gotta do it ourselves. If you love Eve, shoot some Bob and Bob pets.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Frygok Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Frygok You really like using Red Alliance as an example of a cheating alliance, eh DS? Am I just seeing things, or do you comment all these threads about BoB with stuff about Red Alliance? Because they are the most well-known alliance to use blatant exploits (read: multiple trillions of ISK cheated from bugged 8/10 complexes). There are plenty of others, of course, but they're the most well known and public. Do you have proof of the entire Red Alliance exploiting? Or are you just generalising the entire alliance on actions of individuals? One should think that we had learned not to accuse entire entities for what individuals do. I know BoB seems tired of it. Are you new or do you just have amnesia? This is very old news, and it was well known that many alliances had been exploiting the complexes for months, primarily RA (as they had the most of the bugged complexes). They were run roughly 23/7, and somehow I doubt one person ran a dozen complexes 23 hours a day. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:48:00 - [37] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 14:51:26 Originally by: Hamfast 1) Did T20 cheat? 2) What Alliance was he in at the time? 3) Was he in a position of power in that alliance at the time? 1) Yes, of course. 2) BoB 3) No, he left the alliance IIRC. The issue people had was that CCP didn't go take special care to remove the (horrible and mostly worthless except for the Sabre) T2 BPOs he left with BoB when he left. Wrong? Obviously; CCP should have done better. But right now its crying over spilt milk, especially as the ISK earned from those BPOs is pennies compared to many of the other cheats perpetrated before then and since then. Most importantly, t20 cheated, not BoB. He cheated to get BPOs, which BoB rightfully believed were from the lottery, as there would be no reason to think otherwise (a dev had never been caught doing what t20 did before, right?) Most in BoB were probably shocked to learn that the BPOs were made out of thin air by t20 himself. Is BoB innocent? Certainly not. But they're not some evil bastion of horrible cheaters like some people seem to paint them as. At this point, t20 has become nothing more than a rallying cry for those who are losing to BoB. As I said once, "if at first you don't succeed, whine about t20." 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Celticjim Minmatar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:54:00 - [38] I played AC as well during the heyday. From memory, it was considered one of the big three back then including EQ,and UO(?). Not a bad thing to aspire. What killed AC more than anything else, and later admitted from some readings, was the third party apps that were allowed to be brought in game. It was an experiment Turbine decided to try, and it was fun. But I do believe many people feel this led to its downfall. If you want to do a true comparison in the forums, and want to discuss CCP's potential problems, steer clear of naming any alliances. You could have merely said "CCP's reputation taking a hit." As soon as you mention anything re:BoB, it turns from a potentially productive post to where DS will beat everyone to the jump as usual to defend the actions of CCP. If you mention anything about the Goons, you will get mobbed by others who feel the game is absolutely corrupt, and should be purged from the earth - Yet they stil play. The truth as usual lies somewhere in the middle. Regardless of whether you agree, or disagree with CCP's decision, the point is irrelevant. The fact remains CCP has acommitted player base, summer is here in NA, and membership has actually increased since 2003. Anyone else remember when busy Sunday's were 7500+ players? I'll start to make comparisons to old great games like Asheron's Call when we get back to those type of playerbase numbers. Regards CJ
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:58:00 - [39] Originally by: EnglishBob I have opposed BoB in the past and no doubt will again in the future and I fully respect BoB for both their achievements and skill in game. I'm also man enough to take defeat without whining about cheating and victory without hitting the forums like billy big-******s. Many others in this game play the same way. More people should try it, Bitterness rarely helps. Noone disputes the skill of many players in BoB, why do some people have to stoop to such a low point and accuse people of being bitter when they only mention the cheating that has actually happened and been proven? Can we not address the cheating without having this automatism of being called "a goon" or called someone who is losing against BoB? Look, I'm not even in an alliance and neither is my main. I still don't like the cheating and agree with the OP that it has harmed the game. BTW., why don't you oppose BoB anymore? Afraid of having to face cheaters? See how easy it is to accuse people of having such motives? this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.*
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Vorketh Mordanil I think Pirates of the Burning Sea is going to hurt this game a lot if it is as successful as it appears it may (once it FINALLY gets released... rant rant rant...). Either way, I think EVE is definitely improving as a game though... I'm a returning quitter, and although I originally intended to play only until PotBS was released, but since deciding that, I have opened a second account, and have declared that barring total collapse of EVE, I'm going to have to budget my time between the two games, as EVE is just such an amazing and unique universe. I've yet to be directly affected by BoB... I'm one of those guys who makes his home in a 0.5 as close to 0.0 as possible so I have somewhere to run. But either way, I think that even BoB itself contributes to the scale of this game - that an alliance SO massive with SO MANY RESOURCES can still have no direct effect on a large group of players. Not many games can claim that their players actually have an effect on each other even indirectly, but this game has a lot of power in that regard. Have hope - this game has as bright a future as can shine in the darkness of space :) Ah, Pirates of the Burning Sea: 1. No real player-driven market 2. PvP with very minimal loss 3. Purely Consensual PvP How will this hurt EVE? Hell man, I'm a carebear and I would hate that game. <sig> IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB Post! And other such forum tom-foolery. Join my Corporation!

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:59:00 - [41] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 14:58:23 Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: EnglishBob I have opposed BoB in the past and no doubt will again in the future and I fully respect BoB for both their achievements and skill in game. I'm also man enough to take defeat without whining about cheating and victory without hitting the forums like billy big-*******s. Many others in this game play the same way. More people should try it, Bitterness rarely helps. Noone disputes the skill of many players in BoB, why do some people have to stoop to such a low point and accuse people of being bitter when they only mention the cheating that has actually happened and been proven? Can we not address the cheating without having this automatism of being called "a goon" or called someone who is losing against BoB? Look, I'm not even in an alliance and neither is my main. I still don't like the cheating and agree with the OP that it has harmed the game. BTW., why don't you oppose BoB anymore? Afraid of having to face cheaters? See how easy it is to accuse people of having such motives? Give me specific, solid proof that a current member in the leadership of BoB has cheated (that is, done something that was against the rules at the time he did it and not been disciplined for it). Most people can only point to t20, who left BoB and who BoB didn't even know cheated until well after the fact. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 14:49:18 Originally by: Hamfast 1) Did T20 cheat? 2) What Alliance was he in at the time? 3) Was he in a position of power in that alliance at the time? 1) Yes, of course. 2) BoB 3) No, he left the alliance IIRC. The issue people had was that CCP didn't go take special care to remove the (horrible and mostly worthless except for the Sabre) T2 BPOs he left with BoB when he left. Wrong? Obviously; CCP should have done better. But right now its crying over spilt milk, especially as the ISK earned from those BPOs is pennies compared to many of the other cheats perpetrated before then and since then. At this point, t20 has become nothing more than a rallying cry for those who are losing to BoB. As I said once, "if at first you don't succeed, whine about t20." Wow, I thought he was in charge of the Capital Fleet or some such thing... and as one who will most likely never see a T2 BPO, any T2 BPO is "Special"... I do agree with you that the T20 issue is fodder for the masses, it gives a bit of credence to those masses that then point at other things and yell "See see, they did it again!!!11!!1" and every good T2 BPO that Bob has that can't be publicly traced back to how it was earned spawns just another conspiracy on how it was "Really" earned... as I remember it, the rumor was there were more BPO's spawned then what was reported... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Mike Wizouski Diligent Souls	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:05:00 - [43] The fact that people believe the crap that is posted on the internet is just another reason why FOX is still a major news network. There will always be sheep that will believe everything that is said to them.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:09:00 - [44] Originally by: Dark Shikari Give me specific, solid proof that a current member in the leadership of BoB has cheated (that is, done something that was against the rules at the time he did it and not been disciplined for it). I don't have to do that, it has been proven that it already happened. BoB's and CCP's reputation are tarnished and people have a right to be wary. If you weren't so biased, you'd understand. Quote: Most people can only point to t20, who left BoB and who BoB didn't even know cheated until well after the fact. So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
EvilBlade TeAm-ViRuS	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:09:00 - [45] Players active in eve will prob hit 35-40k ....when winter arrives.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Pan Crastus So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. Wait, so they're guilty until proven innocent? 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:11:00 - [47] Flinging poo at Bob is getting rather dull, especially when the poo in question desintegrates before it even leaves the hand of the person flinging it. -- .sig apathy ftw
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Pan Crastus So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. Wait, so they're guilty until proven innocent? Nope, he has been proven guilty, you are the one looking to get it over turned on appeal None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:14:00 - [49] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 15:13:02 Originally by: Hamfast Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Pan Crastus So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. Wait, so they're guilty until proven innocent? Nope, he has been proven guilty, you are the one looking to get it over turned on appeal Who is "he"? Molle? Dianabolic? Backdoor Bandit? 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:20:00 - [50] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Pan Crastus So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. Wait, so they're guilty until proven innocent? Guilty of what? You made a bold claim and I asked you to prove it. You know, it gets tiring when BoB and****y pets keep whacking out the "show us the evidence" line when everybody knows that such evidence can only be obtained by means that will get you banned eventually. this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.*

Dal Thrax Multiverse Corporation The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:21:00 - [51] Originally by: Dark Shikari (P.S. Subscription numbers are rising faster than ever, last I heard) No such thing as bad publicity. Though the OP is write peak numbers are down. I suspect this has more to do with the d/c problems folks have been having lately. Can only get disconnected so many times before you decide to go read a book and try again tomorrow. Dal Originally by: Seleene It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Vorketh Mordanil I think Pirates of the Burning Sea is going to hurt this game a lot if it is as successful as it appears it may (once it FINALLY gets released... rant rant rant...). Either way, I think EVE is definitely improving as a game though... I'm a returning quitter, and although I originally intended to play only until PotBS was released, but since deciding that, I have opened a second account, and have declared that barring total collapse of EVE, I'm going to have to budget my time between the two games, as EVE is just such an amazing and unique universe. I've yet to be directly affected by BoB... I'm one of those guys who makes his home in a 0.5 as close to 0.0 as possible so I have somewhere to run. But either way, I think that even BoB itself contributes to the scale of this game - that an alliance SO massive with SO MANY RESOURCES can still have no direct effect on a large group of players. Not many games can claim that their players actually have an effect on each other even indirectly, but this game has a lot of power in that regard. Have hope - this game has as bright a future as can shine in the darkness of space :) Ah, Pirates of the Burning Sea: 1. No real player-driven market 2. PvP with very minimal loss 3. Purely Consensual PvP How will this hurt EVE? Hell man, I'm a carebear and I would hate that game. 1. AFAIK, and I don't claim perfect knowledge, the market is player-driven. Players must construct facilities such as mines / farms / etc to gather basic resources, turn them into more advanced parts, which get turned into other parts, into, after it's all said and done, a ship. People will typically specialize in one of those roles, merchants will buy the stuff and move it to more profitable areas, etc... that's a player driven economy... it's more than just the AH on WoW, and I won't say it's everything EVE is, but it's a lot closer than you seem to think, again, AFAIK. 2. PVP with minimal loss is an interesting way to put it. For those that elect to be pirates, as it currently stands, your ship sinks, it's gone. For those of other non-pirate factions, your ship can be sunk only so many times (very limited) before it's just gone. Every time you get sunk, you lose a random portion of your stuff (just like getting blown up in EVE, except in EVE, you always lose your ship). So it's not total loss, but it's a helluva lot more than a stroll from the graveyard. 3. PVP is not purely consentual. It is as far as avatar combat, but on the PVP servers, people can quite literally just come up to you and open fire, with some limitations (much like high sec in EVE)... Ultimately, I think the biggest failing will be the fact that they intend to shard the servers, forcing the economies to be substantially weaker, and far less realistic than they exist in this game. And ultimately, part of me does hope that the game isn't all it's *****ed up to be, because then EVE will thrive :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:22:00 - [53] Originally by: prsr Edited by: prsr on 21/06/2007 15:17:03 Flinging poo at Bob is getting rather dull, especially when the poo in question desintegrates before it even leaves the hand of the person flinging it. Originally by: Pan Crastus I don't have to do that, it has been proven that it already happened. BoB's and CCP's reputation are tarnished and people have a right to be wary. If you weren't so biased, you'd understand. The only thing you are demonstrating here is that you lack critical thinking skills. I suppose you think claims on the validity of astrology have been sufficiently proven too? You seem to lack some basic reading skills. It's undisputed that T20 cheating while being in BoB has been proven. That was my claim. Can I guess your standings with BoB? this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:24:00 - [54] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Pan Crastus So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. Wait, so they're guilty until proven innocent? Guilty of what? You made a bold claim and I asked you to prove it. So its a "bold claim" to claim that only the person proven to be guilty was in fact guilty? 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:24:00 - [55] Originally by: Pan Crastus So it has only happened once, we should act as if it had never happened at all. Do you pay any attention to what happens around this game at all? Did you miss the opening of the internal affairs department at CCP (like goonswarm when they sent out their ridiculous open letter)? Originally by: Pan Crastus As for your second claim, that BoB never even knew - that's something I'm not prepared to believe, sorry. Please show me some proof. Hold on here, you are the one making claims, you have to show Bob knew. Don't sit on you ass here like you have nothing to prove, put your money where your mouth is and show it. -- .sig apathy ftw
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Kirell I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. Why do doomsday-thinkers insist on using lies like this? Whining about incognito dev-characters perhaps allegedly abusing their powers is one thing - since noone in the public can be sure whether it happens or not (there are some wacky conspiracy theories out there though...). But to claim that the number of online users is steadily declining is blatantly false. All you have to do is check Coldfront to see that (1) the max online users per day still is above 30,000, (2) the max online users this month was only 1365 below the all-time record of 34420 and (3) that there is no noticeable decline! =AFK=
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:32:00 - [57] I have not read all of the replys to the OP, but in a few of them I am seeing alot of discussion as to who is cheating and such. It really doesn't matter who is cheating or if they are. In the end, people who do not play EVE are reading that the devs are corrupt. That right there is going to keep many potential players away, whether true or not. It has been my experience lately that when I am in the other mmo's that I play, and mention that I also play EVE, the people who have heard of it usually ask about the dev corruption. There is a saying that there is no such thing as bad press, but in this instance I think that this is definitely bad press. -=^=-
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:37:00 - [58] Edited by: prsr on 21/06/2007 15:41:09 Originally by: Pan Crastus No, the claim was made by Pet Shikari, I only wrote that I'm not prepared to believe it. DS made no claim, DS knows there is no evidence to suggest that Bob knew any detail of T20 and his role at CCP or even his powers on TQ and how he used them, therefore the neutral position is that they did not know. On top of that, you can't prove a negative, so your position is very weak indeed. So, since you take the position that bob did know, you should provide evidence that supports that position. You haven't shown any, ergo, you are just making stuff up. Just a note, Kugu has tried as hard as he could to provide evidence that Bob was aware of T20's antics and he couldn't. So good luck with that. -- .sig apathy ftw
Domitianvs Amarr Virginia Mining Institute	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:39:00 - [59] Eve will never die, but when some other newer game like it comes out (something like Infinity) its going to take a big blow. The moment that a game like that comes out I am off the server and it has absolutly nothing to do with BoB. It has alot more to do with the rampant use of macros in this game and the GMs doing absolutly nothing about it. Yes, I know that every MMO is going to have them, but it ****es me off to no end when it is so blatant and there is absolutly nothing being done about it.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:40:00 - [60] This thread delivers! oh and don't try arguing with DS, considering at the time of these "scandals" he was amongst those "shocked and appalled", and concerned. Saying he isn't kinda doesn't work.

Captain Powers	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:42:00 - [61] Edited by: Captain Powers on 21/06/2007 15:41:03 The OP was trying to first trying to compare how enduring Eve has become to another game that had PvP involved. This thread has gone derailed so badly. The key point is how the OP attempted to ask friends into playing the game. Folks, you're missing the real point. Word is getting around the internet that CCP was caught with at least one employee helping players. CCP response was weak. They didn't fire the person. I had quit this game during RMR. A friend that first talked me into playing said things were getting better. I come back and find things seem more shaky and you just have to follow these the responses that show the type of community that Eve has become. Stop whining and give me your stuff. Wow, real debate there. The OP enjoys the game and is trying to support it. CCP is doing things that is counter-productive to growing the game. I could care less about whither BoB is cheating. If they are CCP should be trying stay independent and find out of ANYONE is cheating. Word on the internet is that CCP only slapped the hand of an employee and word is spreading fast that this is continuing, otherwise, they would have fired the employee. That is the word on the internet. Sorry, this talk is counter-productive and is poison in the gaming industry. My opinion, CCP should have fired the Employee. Why play a game that cheaters are supported (employeed) /me shrugs.
Lady Trade	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:44:00 - [62] well i don't want to talk about the whole BoB-are-cheats-story because that is simply getting very old very quick. what i will say something about are new players: i also tried to get a bunch of people playing eve but of the ~7 people that initially found the idea of eve cool (and created trial) only one is currently still playing. when i talked to the other guys that stopped the reasons were mainly: - this sucks because i'll take 2 years to be able to fly ship X or build Y and i'll never be able to catch up - this is a game for saddistic lunatics that like damaging others - there is little to no guidance for new players, you have to make your own life and don't get it served to you on a gold platter - it's to complicated to be fun and requires to much micro management while i personally disagree with all the above points (to some extent at least) they are all more or less valid arguments to stop playing. (but people that have these problems are way better of with hello kitty online or WoW) on the other hand not ONE of the new players that quit again was whining about cheating devs so frankly i don't agree with your assumption that "eve is doomed". it's far more likley that your alliance is doomed and not man enough to admit that they suck.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:44:00 - [63] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Pan Crastus No, the claim was made by Pet Shikari, I only wrote that I'm not prepared to believe it. DS made no claim, DS knows there is no evidence to suggest that Bob knew any detail of T20 and his role at CCP or even his powers on TQ and how he used them, therefore the neutral position is that they did not know. On top of that, you can't prove a negative, so your position is very weak indeed. So, since you take the position that bob did know, you should provide evidence that supports that position. You haven't shown any, ergo, you are just making stuff up. Man, you really have comprehension issues. I refused to believe Dark Shikari's statement because he didn't back it up at all, it was simply a claim out of thin air. I do not need evidence to doubt such a statement, especially when it is made by someone who is obviously biased and has in the past always tried to discredit people who asked valid questions. Now continue to spout your childish crap by trying to turn around every sentence as if I made any claims, good luck with baiting someone else into answering. this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Mari Onette	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:45:00 - [64] Kirell It is people like you who do the most harm to the eve community. Please go away.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:46:00 - [65] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 15:48:12 Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: prsr Originally by: Pan Crastus No, the claim was made by Pet Shikari, I only wrote that I'm not prepared to believe it. DS made no claim, DS knows there is no evidence to suggest that Bob knew any detail of T20 and his role at CCP or even his powers on TQ and how he used them, therefore the neutral position is that they did not know. On top of that, you can't prove a negative, so your position is very weak indeed. So, since you take the position that bob did know, you should provide evidence that supports that position. You haven't shown any, ergo, you are just making stuff up. Man, you really have comprehension issues. I refused to believe Dark Shikari's statement because he didn't back it up at all, it was simply a claim out of thin air. I do not need evidence to doubt such a statement, especially when it is made by someone who is obviously biased and has in the past always tried to discredit people who asked valid questions. Now continue to spout your childish crap by trying to turn around every sentence as if I made any claims, good luck with baiting someone else into answering. No, actually, he's quite right. I stated that, since there's no evidence to support your claim and you can't produce any, you're probably wrong. You are, as far as I can tell, claiming that people other than those proven to cheat (t20) were involved in the cheating, which has never been substantiated and is nothing more than speculation (and probably never will be more than speculation). Rampant speculation like this just leads to more stupid flamewars, more distrust of everyone by everyone, and nothing solved or accomplished. The thing is, even if what you're saying was true, there would be no real way to prove it--its been far too long for there to still be any evidence that hasn't been uncovered, to be honest. So in the end, it gets us nowhere. I gave up long ago on trying to prove something of the sort. Its not going to happen. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Salliene Gallente RennTech Hell Hounds	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:48:00 - [66] Since we're tossing around meaningless anecdotes here, I'll throw mine in. I have a group of online friends who had been dragging their feet about playing EVE, then the NYT story about the player government thing came out and several of them thought it was a really cool and are going to try out EVE when the weather starts to cool off.
Cheunger BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:54:00 - [67] Always there to please your master aren't you DS? Anyways, the dev misconduct allegations almost made me leave the game. But after thinking about it, I don't really care. I/We/BE still own BoB.
mortitia sith kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:56:00 - [68] Edited by: mortitia sith on 21/06/2007 15:56:59 on the a bit lower population last week or 2 consider that that happens every year in every online game, since before the holiday time , its examination time, and many prefer a few weeks studying with many weeks of holidaytime after . on the issue of the mining 1 unit for tutorials , thats been adressed since tutorial will roughly be deadspace one person only since rev 2 . so tell those friends to try again . on the other issue , let it go folks , really no use to rechew that gum for the zillioned time . and on ac, well i played ac2 , and the way turbine handled that , they lost a player for life , i m never ever going to play a game by turbine again
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:58:09 Hi goon! Hi Troll! I am glad that CCP takes this matter more serious than you do. Lack of trust and bad reputation IS a problem and will affect the long term numbers of playerbase. Actually CCP has more sense than you, especially if you say that corruption and cheating is (sorry, was!) not only common in BoB but also in the other large alliances like D2 (oops, they are gone) and RA (any proof please?). If that is true what you write, what I really don't think, then CCP would have a much more massive problem. Gladly the upper heads in CCP realized that preception and trust is worth so much and they do something to regain a good reputation again. The IA department, reports of some investigation they do, maybe even some tours/little investigations by this player choosen 9-people-board. This all helps!
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:01:00 - [70] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Frygok You really like using Red Alliance as an example of a cheating alliance, eh DS? Am I just seeing things, or do you comment all these threads about BoB with stuff about Red Alliance? Because they are the most well-known alliance to use blatant exploits (read: multiple trillions of ISK cheated from bugged 8/10 complexes). There are plenty of others, of course, but they're the most well known and public. So did BoB and FIX I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.

prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:02:00 - [71] Originally by: Pan Crastus Man, you really have comprehension issues. I refused to believe Dark Shikari's statement because he didn't back it up at all, it was simply a claim out of thin air. If you really want to treat what DS said as a claim you'll have to concede that his claim was in line with the evidence. Whereas you are still asking people to prove a negative. Originally by: Pan Crastus I do not need evidence to doubt such a statement, especially when it is made by someone who is obviously biased and has in the past always tried to discredit people who asked valid questions. You are right to doubt, doubt is healthy. Doubt makes people look for evidence. Too bad you keep asking people to prove a negative while the neutral position is not in any way troubled by lack of evidence. Originally by: Pan Crastus Now continue to spout your childish crap by trying to turn around every sentence as if I made any claims, good luck with baiting someone else into answering. I've never heard people refer to logic as childish unless their arguments were shot down so hard they have to save face by going Ad Hominimen. -- .sig apathy ftw
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:03:00 - [72] Originally by: Dark Shikari No, actually, he's quite right. I stated that, since there's no evidence to support your claim and you can't produce any, you're probably wrong. You are, as far as I can tell, claiming that people other than those proven to cheat (t20) were involved in the cheating, which has never been substantiated and is nothing more than speculation (and probably never will be more than speculation). You have it backwards too. You claimed the opposite of what you are now claiming to be my claim. I said that I don't believe it and that you'd better back up your claim with some solid proof. Do you have any proof that noone in BoB knew? No, you don't, you simply believe it because you'd prefer it to be so. Well, I don't believe it because it's extremely unlikely. Quote: Rampant speculation like this just leads to more stupid flamewars, more distrust of everyone by everyone, and nothing solved or accomplished. The rampant speculation is that noone knew anything (despite all the MSN connections eh?) and even though no action was taken for months to resolve the matter, still noone in BoB found out until it was all over. I find that highly unlikely. this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Pan Crastus The rampant speculation is that noone knew anything (despite all the MSN connections eh?) and even though no action was taken for months to resolve the matter, still noone in BoB found out until it was all over. I find that highly unlikely. The only "evidence" of an "MSN connection" was an off-cuff joke by Dianabolic. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:06:00 - [74] Originally by: Mari Onette Kirell It is people like you who do the most harm to the eve community. Please go away. When were you elected as a representative of "EVE community" ? Please, go away.
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Dark Shikari The only "evidence" of an "MSN connection" was an off-cuff joke by Dianabolic. Ah, this became a "joke". How convenient...
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:09:00 - [76] ACCEPT MY BLATANT SPECULATION AS TRUTH NOW! huh, wha, I wasn't making any claims! -- .sig apathy ftw
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Dark Shikari The only "evidence" of an "MSN connection" was an off-cuff joke by Dianabolic. Ah, this became a "joke". How convenient... So wait, if BoB could call devs on MSN, they would clearly brag about it in local, right? I mean, clearly. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Dark Shikari So wait, if BoB could call devs on MSN, they would clearly brag about it in local, right? I mean, clearly. No, of course not. And CCP employees would never play in alliances, let alone cheat and get caught. ;-) Come on, you've had better rhetoric highlights than that, try harder... this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Shinji Seto Minmatar Los Gordos	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:16:00 - [79] 0.0 is overated, 0.0 politics suck, BOB and pets are lame, Goonfleet is even more lame. Ya'll ever try just playing the game instead of fighting like girls forum warrior style? I promise the game is more fun than flaming eachother on teh forums. "Outlaw" This was the name given to those who roam the universe with only his freedom as his guide.
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:16:00 - [80] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Dark Shikari The only "evidence" of an "MSN connection" was an off-cuff joke by Dianabolic. Ah, this became a "joke". How convenient... So wait, if BoB could call devs on MSN, they would clearly brag about it in local, right? I mean, clearly. So wait, there would be a dev in an aliance and he would never share, even accidentally, internal knowledge with his comrades, right? I mean, clearly.

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:19:00 - [81] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 16:18:26 Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Dark Shikari The only "evidence" of an "MSN connection" was an off-cuff joke by Dianabolic. Ah, this became a "joke". How convenient... So wait, if BoB could call devs on MSN, they would clearly brag about it in local, right? I mean, clearly. So wait, there would be a dev in an aliance and he would never share, even accidentally, internal knowledge with his comrades, right? I mean, clearly. So now you're complaining about devs in alliances in general? If so, state that you are, because CCP themselves have stated that devs are roughly equally distributed among the top 10 alliances (and if you don't trust CCP enough to believe that, why are you still playing EVE?) 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:20:00 - [82] Originally by: Shinji Seto 0.0 is overated, 0.0 politics suck, BOB and pets are lame, Goonfleet is even more lame. Ya'll ever try just playing the game instead of fighting like girls forum warrior style? I promise the game is more fun than flaming eachother on teh forums. Well, politics and player interaction are part of the fun, for some players at least. And, yeah, while some can spend a few minutes to type ten sentences at work, he/she may well not be able to spend that time playing. So, don't assume writing in forums precludes playing.
Mari Onette	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:21:00 - [83] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Mari Onette Kirell It is people like you who do the most harm to the eve community. Please go away. When were you elected as a representative of "EVE community" ? Please, go away. My subscription fee elected me. So you think that talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!" Is constructive to the community? All these endless posts from goons and other fools talking about how devs MUST be cheating, and theres OBVIOUSLY misconduct going on ALL THE TIME! Do you think this sort of garbage attracts players TO eve? or does it drive them away from it? I'm sick of people whining about how clearly because they dont have a titan that the game is full of curruption. It does nothing to help the community, It does nothing to encourage new players, and it does nothing to actually address any of the real problems anyways. For gods sake, If you were thinking about joining eve and you looked at the fourms, you'd think that devs are handing out tech 2 battleship BPO's to anyone who makes a paypal donation to them because of all the whining people do. You want to help eve. Quit posting threads about this garbage. Post threads about how to continue to make eve great. This needless speculation is nothing more then people kicking CCP in the shins because its easy and hey, everyone else is doing it.
Pelf Matagraph	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:24:00 - [84] I think we all take this stuff too seriously. Good gaming is fun, I love it like anyone else, and in a sandbox environment like EVE all you have to do is move away from people who throw the sand around- just like in real life. When I first started playing EVE, shortly after release, I did get caught up in all the political mule droppings associated with this community. And it damaged not only friendships, but in the end it was damaging to me personally, and to former friends caught up in the EVE madness. Gaming just isn't that important. It reminds me of the whole Good/CCP/Rest of the Community thing going on here. I could care less if CCP colludes with BoB to kill off Goonsquat. I just don't care. What I do care about is having fun in my sandbox, and when someone gets in the way of that- I don't get mad, I either get even or move out of the way. So can we move on from this garbage? I know it means a lot to some of you, but it's not all that important. Better you should go pod-kill someone, mine a roid, make a delivery, or run a mission. Thats my take- who cares!
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:25:00 - [85] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Shinji Seto 0.0 is overated, 0.0 politics suck, BOB and pets are lame, Goonfleet is even more lame. Ya'll ever try just playing the game instead of fighting like girls forum warrior style? I promise the game is more fun than flaming eachother on teh forums. Well, politics and player interaction are part of the fun, for some players at least. And, yeah, while some can spend a few minutes to type ten sentences at work, he/she may well not be able to spend that time playing. So, don't assume writing in forums precludes playing. Agreed, I'm playing Supreme Commander with a friend atm 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:27:00 - [86] Originally by: Dark Shikari So now you're complaining about devs in alliances in general? If so, state that you are, because CCP themselves have stated that devs are roughly equally distributed among the top 10 alliances What do you mean by "now"? This has been my position always. Quote: (and if you don't trust CCP enough to believe that, why are you still playing EVE?) I wonder about this too. Probably because I can't afford the anti-drug treatment yet.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:28:00 - [87] Originally by: Dark Shikari ...and it was well known that many alliances had been exploiting the complexes for months, primarily RA (as they had the most of the bugged complexes).... Originally by: Dark Shikari ...CCP themselves have stated that devs are roughly equally distributed among the top 10 alliances So, those devs supported RA in cheating? Is it that what you want to say? Strange, somehow I recall t20 being BoB and not RA. Stupid me, I must have mixed up something!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:28:00 - [88] Lets just hope that from all that mess CCP learn the lesson to act swift and fast, on both investigation and actions, and not let thing roll on. Letting teh dust settle down does not work, and they learned it the hard way. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:30:00 - [89] Originally by: Mari Onette You want to help eve. Quit posting threads about this garbage. Post threads about how to continue to make eve great. This needless speculation is nothing more then people kicking CCP in the shins because its easy and hey, everyone else is doing it. There are 2 large groups of players in EVE and it's not even particularly hard to see it. * those who love EVE and wish CCP had handled those matters in a way that gained them more trust and respect than they did. They hate these discussions too but at the same time feel that there's stuff left to clear up * those who love EVE and are in denial, they would rather not know what was going on and keep playing because they know they can't fix it and they can't quit either (and of course if they are in BoB or some pet alliance they secretly wish there's still cheating so they can keep on winning) Now you can complain about the first class of players as much as you want, it doesn't make their motives less honorable. It is extremely dishonorable though to attribute their actions to them not having Titans / T2 BPOs / a "DEVS" corp tag / ... this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Shinji Seto Minmatar Los Gordos	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:32:00 - [90] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Shinji Seto 0.0 is overated, 0.0 politics suck, BOB and pets are lame, Goonfleet is even more lame. Ya'll ever try just playing the game instead of fighting like girls forum warrior style? I promise the game is more fun than flaming eachother on teh forums. Well, politics and player interaction are part of the fun, for some players at least. And, yeah, while some can spend a few minutes to type ten sentences at work, he/she may well not be able to spend that time playing. So, don't assume writing in forums precludes playing. You do have a good point. But I was really just venting my frustration with the way 0.0 politics has spilled over from in game into misinformation and propganda campaigns that are having a negative impact on the game. For example my brother who isn't a game and didn't know that I play EVE has even heard of the goons anti CCP spit and drivel. I had to set him straight and explain to him that it is propaganda and BS because they are upset about loosing at internet spaceships. My point is though, that people taking all of this too seriously is hurting the game and eating away at the comunity. I'm done with 0.0 I had fun there for a short while with IAC (great guys btw), but all of the folks taking things too extremes and all the tin foil hattery has made me decide a life of ganking folks in low sec seems a lot more appealing then 0.0. Nevertheless this is all just my opinion and you know how the cliche goes.... "Outlaw" This was the name given to those who roam the universe with only his freedom as his guide.

Khatred Fluffy Mungoose Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:34:00 - [91] Eve and AC (Darktide Server) have very little in common.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:34:00 - [92] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Dark Shikari No, actually, he's quite right. I stated that, since there's no evidence to support your claim and you can't produce any, you're probably wrong. You are, as far as I can tell, claiming that people other than those proven to cheat (t20) were involved in the cheating, which has never been substantiated and is nothing more than speculation (and probably never will be more than speculation). You have it backwards too. You claimed the opposite of what you are now claiming to be my claim. I said that I don't believe it and that you'd better back up your claim with some solid proof. Do you have any proof that noone in BoB knew? No, you don't, you simply believe it because you'd prefer it to be so. Well, I don't believe it because it's extremely unlikely. Quote: Rampant speculation like this just leads to more stupid flamewars, more distrust of everyone by everyone, and nothing solved or accomplished. The rampant speculation is that noone knew anything (despite all the MSN connections eh?) and even though no action was taken for months to resolve the matter, still noone in BoB found out until it was all over. I find that highly unlikely. I know real life is not supposed to be used in these threads, but I have a Real Life example... al-Qa'ida was not in Iraq... al-Qa'ida was in the US, Europe, Asia, Africa... but not in Iraq... You can believe that al-Qa'ida was not in Iraq all you want... but I really find it hard to believe. T20 was in Bob, Some in Bob knew who T20 was, T20 cheated, T20 was outed, the person that outed T20 was banned, several months later some T2 BPO's were tied to that cheating and reclaimed... You can believe all you want that nobody in Bob knew (before, during or after the fact) that T20 cheated and the BPO's he made available were not gained under the rules, but I find it hard to believe... Had Bob Come forward with the aforementioned BPO's (and any others the conspiracy types think exist) and said to CCP (Publicly) "These BPO's were provided to us under questionable circumstances", I would have less problems believing that nobody knew. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:36:00 - [93] Originally by: Mari Onette Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Mari Onette Kirell It is people like you who do the most harm to the eve community. Please go away. When were you elected as a representative of "EVE community" ? Please, go away. My subscription fee elected me. You misunderstand the meaning of the subscription fee. Quote: So you think that talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!" Is constructive to the community? No, I don't. Why do you think I do? Would you quote the lines, which made you draw this conclusion? To clarify just for you, I think, quote, talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!", unquote, is irrelevant for the community. The rest is a meaningless rant, which does not warrant an answer.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:38:00 - [94] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Dark Shikari ...and it was well known that many alliances had been exploiting the complexes for months, primarily RA (as they had the most of the bugged complexes).... Originally by: Dark Shikari ...CCP themselves have stated that devs are roughly equally distributed among the top 10 alliances So, those devs supported RA in cheating? Is it that what you want to say? Strange, somehow I recall t20 being BoB and not RA. Stupid me, I must have mixed up something! Having a dev in an alliance doesn't mean that the dev is necessarily cheating for them t20 is the exception, not the rule; if it was the rule, nobody would be complaining about t20 as they'd have their own cheating devs 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Dalanoria Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:39:00 - [95] No way does eve go out like that, unless they introduce eveII...There is no space odyssey out to rival EO unlicke AC where you had everyone competing against it... Until the MMO world comes out with a better space ship pew pew game EO will continue on... Ok they dont have 8 million subscribers and dont pull in 1 billion a month is revenue like Blizzard, but 200k subscribers can keep CCP and their dev team in nice homes and their children in private schools... AND, EVE-TV is no longer going to be free, so expect about $6.00 a month extra rvenue from all 14 subscribers a month.....
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:43:00 - [96] Originally by: Dalanoria AND, EVE-TV is no longer going to be free, so expect about $6.00 a month extra rvenue from all 14 subscribers a month..... I'm guessing it'll lose money, as from what I know of it, EVETV will be very expensive to run. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Mari Onette	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:43:00 - [97] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Mari Onette Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Mari Onette Kirell It is people like you who do the most harm to the eve community. Please go away. When were you elected as a representative of "EVE community" ? Please, go away. My subscription fee elected me. You misunderstand the meaning of the subscription fee. Quote: So you think that talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!" Is constructive to the community? No, I don't. Why do you think I do? Would you quote the lines, which made you draw this conclusion? To clarify just for you, I think, quote, talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!", unquote, is irrelevant for the community. The rest is a meaningless rant, which does not warrant an answer. You do realise that I was addressing the original poster right? Kirell =! Karim. Tell me how threads Titled "why eve is doomed" help eve. Give me one good reason. come on I dare you.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:44:00 - [98] Originally by: Dalanoria No way does eve go out like that, unless they introduce eveII...There is no space odyssey out to rival EO unlicke AC where you had everyone competing against it... Until the MMO world comes out with a better space ship pew pew game EO will continue on... Ok they dont have 8 million subscribers and dont pull in 1 billion a month is revenue like Blizzard, but 200k subscribers can keep CCP and their dev team in nice homes and their children in private schools... AND, EVE-TV is no longer going to be free, so expect about $6.00 a month extra rvenue from all 14 subscribers a month..... Your Eve II example would fit as long as it was based on nothing that makes Eve special but was sold as being based on Eve... but looked more like "Wow in Space" None of us is as dumb as all of us...
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:44:00 - [99] Hey Wish-Bone... its me Magik-D / Collateral-Damage / Majik Man / The-Legend I will agree AC is alot like Eve, but I will admit that I will take Eve's GM's over AC's GM's anyday... KoC FTW!
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Mari Onette Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Mari Onette Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Mari Onette Kirell It is people like you who do the most harm to the eve community. Please go away. When were you elected as a representative of "EVE community" ? Please, go away. My subscription fee elected me. You misunderstand the meaning of the subscription fee. Quote: So you think that talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!" Is constructive to the community? No, I don't. Why do you think I do? Would you quote the lines, which made you draw this conclusion? To clarify just for you, I think, quote, talking about how "EVE IS GONNA DIE OMG!!!", unquote, is irrelevant for the community. The rest is a meaningless rant, which does not warrant an answer. You do realise that I was addressing the original poster right? Kirell =! Karim. You clearly quoted my post and replied to my comment. There's no doubt about it. Quote: Tell me how threads Titled "why eve is doomed" help eve. Give me one good reason. come on I dare you. I could endlessly speculate either how would they help or how would they hurt EVE. I'd rather refrain from doing it, though.

Cadela Fria Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:54:00 - [101] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 21/06/2007 16:52:50 Originally by: Karim alRashid Quote: Tell me how threads Titled "why eve is doomed" help eve. Give me one good reason. come on I dare you. I could endlessly speculate either how would they help or how would they hurt EVE. I'd rather refrain from doing it, though. Translated: I DONT HAVE A GOOD REASON, I FAIL! BOOOHOOOO..wait..whats this? A string of fancy words that might just make me look less like a failure! TO THE REPLY BUTTON!! batman theme. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Snake Jankins Minmatar Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:55:00 - [102] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Lets just hope that from all that mess CCP learn the lesson to act swift and fast, on both investigation and actions, and not let thing roll on. Letting teh dust settle down does not work, and they learned it the hard way. I agree. That's the only thing that really matters. Stuff like the t20 incidents have been discussed to death, everything has been said at least 10 times and it has been handled and is history. The decisions have been, t20 stays, CCP employees continue to play etc., some things get/got improved, IA does it's work and that's it for now. I think people need to accept it. Complaining/whining about the old issues again and again won't change the decisions, so leads to nothing and is just annoying/boring. In short: T20 case handled and closed, can't live with it, leave. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:01:00 - [103] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Dark Shikari ...and it was well known that many alliances had been exploiting the complexes for months, primarily RA (as they had the most of the bugged complexes).... Originally by: Dark Shikari ...CCP themselves have stated that devs are roughly equally distributed among the top 10 alliances So, those devs supported RA in cheating? Is it that what you want to say? Strange, somehow I recall t20 being BoB and not RA. Stupid me, I must have mixed up something! Having a dev in an alliance doesn't mean that the dev is necessarily cheating for them But if - as you say - it was well known to everyone, and if devs are in every large alliance then devs were also in RA and knew about those bugged complexes which produced trillions - as you said. Not shutting down those complexes then and fixing them but letting them produce more and more isk under the knowing eyes of the dev(s) in the alliance - all that you say - would be clearly cheating in favour of RA, wouldn't it? I think you now see how ridiculous your attempts to spin things are. Your campaign against RA is bad nonsense at best. Or do you really believe the above??
Oosel Nightmare Holdings Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:01:00 - [104] Edited by: Oosel on 21/06/2007 17:01:56 its not bob that is hurting eve at the moment a lot of us have played in the sandbox from the very beginning before bob was even started. they never bothered us then and they still have no impact on us what so ever.... from an old player perpesctive i can tell you my one and only reason that eve isnt currently flicking my switch atm is simple. as a capital ship pilot you are doomed unless you have a second account and im not the only person that still plays eve with just one account. to force you to either rely on a second account or another player to move around is a bind before i get flamed with the 'duh its a mmog' line get some friends it doesnt wash having to always put somebody else out to be your cyno mule bear in mind this is just my point of view but look how many long term players are falling by the wayside now
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:02:00 - [105] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 17:00:43 Originally by: Gnulpie But if - as you say - it was well known to everyone, and if devs are in every large alliance then devs were also in RA and knew about those bugged complexes which produced trillions - as you said. Not shutting down those complexes then and fixing them but letting them produce more and more isk under the knowing eyes of the dev(s) in the alliance - all that you say - would be clearly cheating in favour of RA, wouldn't it? I think you now see how ridiculous your attempts to spin things are. Your campaign against RA is bad nonsense at best. Or do you really believe the above?? I would personally doubt there are many devs in RA because most devs probably don't know Russian. They're pretty closed to outsiders, and its proven pretty effective for them. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Uchuu	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:05:00 - [106] "The game is doomed" post #122423 added to list... NEXT!
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:09:00 - [107] Originally by: Kirell As many people know Asherons Call was a great game, first of it's kind with a new feel and a new way of doing nearly everything. It had a strong community, and a good subscribership at it's peak having to open a new server every few months to deal with the load. Alas after so much tim ein the Sun, Asherons Call perished (I'm sure AC2 bombing helped it as well) Except for a few loyal followers AC fell into the past. EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. Now the reason why I say it is doomed.... Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community. Now no matter what BoB accomplishes, even if they eventually control all of 0.0 space, or 90% of it or whatever they will have this hang over thier heads, and never truly be able to have thier accomplishment respected by players in game ( at least those that oppose BoB) But this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" And while EVE still remains a great game, with alot of great things to come, I believe that in the not so distant future it will be joining Asherons Call on that lonely road, I am sure there will be the regular followers, the fanboi's of CCP trying to keep it alive, but with MMO's multiplying faster than rabbits people will move elsewhere quickly. Maybe you don't feel that way, which is good in some ways, or maybe you don't care.... it's no matter this is just my thoughts on EVE onlines future sustainability as a competetive MMO in the future to come. And no.... this isn't a BoB thread... Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Discuss, please avoid flaming. all VALID opinions welcome. You of course explained that what they read what twisted in many ways. That they have dealt with every instance of cheating one way or another, granted some people might not agree it was enough, but something was done. You also told them to go ahead and try it, they have nothing to lose except the possible fun they might have, to get them hooked into the game. You sound just like somebody who believes everything they read, the last couple articles of "corruption" is a complete and utter joke, generated by half-truths by people who truely do not have anything better to do then make a coperation like CCP look bad for some odd reason.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:22:00 - [108] Originally by: Pan Crastus There are 2 large groups of players in EVE and it's not even particularly hard to see it. ... Ok, so i distributed the people i know in eve into your groups and i still have 100% of the people i started with in neither of your camps. However, I have seen a lot of people that only have a vague idea about the facts that have been established making threads filled with far out assumptions that haven't ever been established. Then when people critically examine these opinions it turns out that either the OP is immune to reason and evidence or the goalposts are being shifted around so fervently that the discussion is worthless. -- .sig apathy ftw
Alek Row Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:28:00 - [109] I have one friend that asked me to send him a trial key so he can try the game after the latest Goon/BoB/wtf incident. He never had payed too much attention to EvE before, all of a sudden there was lot's of publicity about EvE all over the net. If you research a bit more about the game, and besides the cheating articles you can also find lot's of interesting stuff. The game already have some years, free expansions, an increasing player base and an AWESOME article in Financial Times about EvE Economy per example. I doubt that there was so many people leaving or unwilling to try the game because of that incident. There is no such thing as bad publicity. Bad publicity is publicity too.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:36:00 - [110] Edited by: prsr on 21/06/2007 17:36:45 Originally by: Gnulpie Your campaign against RA is bad nonsense at best. Or do you really believe the above?? I've seen you a couple of times trying to fling poo, but you seem to be extremely bad at it. I won't even go into your denialism concerning members of RA taking advantage of bugged plexes, i'm sure it didn't happen in Gnulpie world, just like how the Goons never used an altered client to their own benefit with an approving nod from their leadership. Your closing statement rests on the idea that people in an alliance couldn't have cheated because there were devs in their alliance (RA). At the same time i'm pretty sure you are of the opinion that devs in alliance cause them to cheat (Bob). I suggest you stick with one story 'cause otherwise you are better of making a thread for yourself and start arguing with yourself there. -- .sig apathy ftw

Snake Jankins Minmatar Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:40:00 - [111] The RA complex story is also history. What I think we know is: RA ran those 8/10 plexes like mad over months. Someone knew about the short overseer respawn times and petitioned RA, but nothing happened afaik, until it was brought to the forums. RA's comment to that was more or less that they are not abusing knowingly a bug and that the overseer respawn times are not their problem. Some of them said they don't stop and keep running the plexes. Then afaik some GMs had difficulties to convince them to stop. Dunno if some RA's got banned for refusing to stop running the plexes, but the plexes got fixed later. Although RA were our (-V-'s) enemies at that time and they probably financed their pos-war with that stuff, I think it's almost pointless and a thing of the past now. I'm not resentful. Things got solved by the devs and gms several months ago and it's still a game. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:41:00 - [112] Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 21/06/2007 16:52:50 Originally by: Karim alRashid Quote: Tell me how threads Titled "why eve is doomed" help eve. Give me one good reason. come on I dare you. I could endlessly speculate either how would they help or how would they hurt EVE. I'd rather refrain from doing it, though. Translated: I DONT HAVE A GOOD REASON, I FAIL! BOOOHOOOO..wait..whats this? A string of fancy words that might just make me look less like a failure! TO THE REPLY BUTTON!! batman theme. Your translator is broken, as well as your speech synthesizer.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:50:00 - [113] Originally by: Snake Jankins Things got solved by the devs and gms several months ago and it's still a game. If only people could let the T20 thing go and stop making up "new & improved" tinfoilhattery. It happened a year ago and CCP has changed their corporate structure to minimize the chance of it happening again long ago as well. The story is over, the crowd is long gone and frankly nobody really wants to hear alt #8289342's personal revelations on the subject anymore. -- .sig apathy ftw
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:55:00 - [114] Originally by: Dark Shikari and another single employee cheating while part of an alliance and getting disciplined for it When was that, 6 months after it happened? The t20 incident damaged eve and it will take a long time before people forget about it (or care)
Dave White coracao ardente	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:06:00 - [115] Burried, not cremated. CORA. Killboard Personal Killboard
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:08:00 - [116] Ladies and Gentlemen, I would just like to say my opinion here. I know it is very hard for me to be a member of my corp and alliance and not be helpful to my friends. Why is it that we can expect the people who know all about the internal workings of the game to not be helpful to their friends as well? I understand why management is in favor of the developers secretly playing the game (and I'm not sure how it could be stopped in any event). It just brings extremely troublesome baggage, and you know what I mean. The workings of the world and how people interact are much more more subtle than we are going to describe in a few words here. I have played this game for a long time. And I love it. I just hope the childish meta-gaming can be held down to a dull roar so the real Eve shines forth. Best regards to all of you, Gorty -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Lavinrac Krad	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:22:00 - [117] Mmmm... Yeah people don't trust CCP, BUT! The people who will not play Eve because of the recent internet propaganda campaign are still just people who do not like Eve (Because they don't like Eve stylistically). Basically I am saying, Eve will recover from this mess, especially when a new player realizes that alliance content is truly a minor draw to Eve and the major draw is piracy and grief content. People might say "Eve suffers because of Griefers," well that is wrong. Eve's market value exists because it is a balance of greifplay and sandboxyness... So I am saying, as long as CCP don't try to clone EQ, which WoW cloned, Eve will be safe. (So quit nerfing High Sec PvP god dammit!) This is just my opinion, but I am a guy who has watched and participated in bringing down a few MMORPGs. Eve ain't there yet... ---- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas
Cadeus	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:26:00 - [118] I personally miss the days of MOO, at least it gave the devs something to do and play the game to stop them :) But then again to me it seemed MOO at launch of EvE almost brought down the game by killing everyone in sight, and im sure discouraging people from playing anymore.
Runix Nightwalker	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:38:00 - [119] I was going to start a topic on this, but I'm refraining, in order to keep the conversation in one place--even if it means I'm buried on Page 5. The sacrifices I make in the best interest of the forums . . . First, I'm a newish player, but even as a new player, it's an issue for me. It's a competitive game, and as such, the idea that developers are playing the game--which inevitably means a significant advantages for themselves and their friends--really bothers me. Chefs vs Stock Analysts: I realize that a chef eats his own food, but a stock analyst does not own stock in the companies he covers. It's called a conflict of interest, and I know all about it, as I work for a major accounting/consulting firm. The fact that CCP is in denial of the fact that there is a conflict of interest at all is a major negative. "Everyone Wins" vs Zero-Sum: Developers play other MMOs, but other MMOs are "everyone wins" games, where one player's success does not come at the expense of another. If a developer abuses his advantages to get the 7334 Sword of Pwnzerness before other not-so-advantaged players, who cares? But in EVE Online, if a developer abuses his advantages to allow his alliance to expand its controlled space, that comes at the expense of other players--paying customers who are paying the bills for the developer(s) in question (well, maybe not for long.) Conflict of interest, plain and simple. Internal Review: CCP has an internal review group, but let me put this as simple as possible: if developers can't cheat and get away with it, CCP needs to fire them and get more competent developers. Developers who know what they're doing are going to get away with it, period. Just too much that can be done--especially with a database-based game--that can go undetected. What are they going to do, sift through millions of transactions a day looking for suspicious ones? All the internal review group can do is slap some wrists just in case they stumble, purely by dumb luck, on evidence that someone is cheating. *Alliances Which May or May Not* Have Developers:** It's not just the cheating; it's the fact that larger alliances can hint that they might or might not have developers in their group, wink-wink nudge-nudge! No, they're not supposed to do that, but of course it happens, and it is an incredible advantage in recruiting top players (or recruiting mediocre players who are willing to work as slaves.) One gets especially suspicous when certain large player groups never seem to have any public complaints--why, it's almost as if anything that might be an issue for them, the developers become aware of and fix in advance! Again, that's a tremendous advantage that other player groups--of paying customers--do not enjoy. The Solution: There's only one solution: developers off the production server, completely. Does that stink? Well yes, but then, so does not being able to own stock in companies you research full-time. But it's the only way to resolve a clear conflict of interest. Employees vs paying customers: should be an easy choice to make, but apparently not. The only alternative solution--although not as good a one--is to make an effort to spread the developers out amongst player groups, and to make that policy public. That would at least give players some reassurance that developers might, maybe, be watching each other.
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:55:00 - [120] Originally by: Runix Nightwalker Stuff, I absolutely agree with ... Of course, you're a goon alt and you tell all this because you don't like losing to another alliance. And also you whine. And also instead of fighting BoB, you write on the forums. And a dozen more likewise predictable answers.

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:58:00 - [121] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 18:57:48 Originally by: Runix Nightwalker The Solution: There's only one solution: developers off the production server, completely. Does that stink? Well yes, but then, so does not being able to own stock in companies you research full-time. But it's the only way to resolve a clear conflict of interest. Employees vs paying customers: should be an easy choice to make, but apparently not. How are developers supposed to improve a game that they cannot even play? Over a decade of MMORPG failures have demonstrated that you cannot have a successful MMORPG where the developers do not play the game. Its a choice between a bunch of tinfoil hatters worrying about bias and a game not worth playing. I'll choose the former. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:08:00 - [122] Edited by: Wendat Huron on 21/06/2007 19:08:04 Is it just me or did Dark Shikari lose any cool he used to have and is now only a shell of his former self with the hand of BoB firmly lodged up the rear?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:12:00 - [123] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 19:13:17 Originally by: Wendat Huron Is it just me or did Dark Shikari lose any cool he used to have and is now only a shell of his former self with the hand of BoB firmly lodged up the rear? What happened is I got utterly completely sick of the whines. If enough people whine about something, I end up taking the opposite position as them, regardless of how valid their whines are. I just get utterly sick of the whining. What I'm annoyed with right now are the floods of unsubstantiated accusations relating to t20... six months after the fact. We're all sick of the arguments; it was beaten to death in every way, shape and form in the HUNDRED PAGES of discussion after the incident. Some people spent WEEKS doing little more than debating it. I personally set up an anonymous discussion board for that sole purpose, since threads were being locked on these forums. And now that we're all back to it again, and honestly, I don't give a crap about it anymore. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Runix Nightwalker	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:20:00 - [124] Originally by: Dark Shikari How are developers supposed to improve a game that they cannot even play? Over a decade of MMORPG failures have demonstrated that you cannot have a successful MMORPG where the developers do not play the game. Its a choice between a bunch of tinfoil hatters worrying about bias and a game not worth playing. I'll choose the former. Restrict the developers to the test server. RTSs have proven that the best feedback does not come from the developers--it comes from players who play the game a tremendous amount, preferably professional players. EVE doesn't have those, but it has no shortage of players who are happy to provide extremely detailed feedback. Also, developers can (as developers of other MMOs) use a "god mode" to watch other players play on the production server--quick and easy way to find exploits, identify imbalances, etc. Does EVE Online have a "god mode" accessible to the developers that lets them spy on--whoops, I mean "observe"--other players? Say, that's a good question, now where did I put that tinfoil hat . . . Easy prediction: somebody else from CCP is going to get caught cheating. It's just too easy for them, and the alliance wars have become an issue of personal pride, which can easily push even the most rational of people to do foolish things. CCP better have their policies lined up, and they had better know how they're going to handle it if it turns out to be one of their critical developers or higher-ups, because I guarantee you it's going to happen again.
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:21:00 - [125] Asheron's Call lost subscribers for a few reasons. For one thing, they turned a blind eye to macros for too long. That is, combat macros stationed in dungeons, repeatedly killing monsters for experience points. By the time they created an anti-macro policy, too many people had already given up and moved on to Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, Camelot or something else. Plus there was the natural migration to those newer games, similar enough to appeal to the sword & wand crowd, but offering new graphics & gameplay. You could argue that Eve has a macro problem (more a farming problem really) similar to AC's... but it's hard to say whether this is driving people away. You could argue that "big guilds" caused problems in both games - in AC you had "Blood" and "Order of the Iron Fist" making bad names for themselves. But here it's hard to equate the two since AC had multiple shards. It's probably safe to expect Eve to lose business when there's competition from some new sci-fi themed MMO, but... the sci-fi theme is only part of Eve's appeal. If a new sci-fi game comes out with the same sort of dog-eat-dog mentality, but with joystick control, atmospheric flight, terraforming, or what have you - revolutionary stuff - Eve could really struggle.
Karim alRashid Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:35:00 - [126] Originally by: Wendat Huron Edited by: Wendat Huron on 21/06/2007 19:08:04 Is it just me or did Dark Shikari lose any cool he used to have and is now only a shell of his former self with the hand of BoB firmly lodged up the rear? Not only you. It happened somewhere in the middle of the Threadnaught Weekend.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:55:00 - [127] Originally by: Dark Shikari And now that we're all back to it again, and honestly, I don't give a crap about it anymore. You reply, so you do care. All these problems with cheating dev(s), true or not is a problem for eve. Maybe not for those who already play but those who maybe wanted to try the game, but don't because they believe these stories. And i'm sure ccp cares, just most players don't.
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:24:00 - [128] To the OP: I hope you at least took the time to explain to your friends that despite what they have read online about EVE, the entire affair that came out HAS ABSOLUTLEY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER on 90% of the community. RAGoon/BoB/<insert your alliance name here> and their politics will be so frigging far removed from what you are going to be involved with in the first 2-3 months of playing, its not even worth thinking about. I hope you didnt turn into a wet noodle when they said that and didnt try to defend the game. The GAME is fantastic. CCP as a whole is pretty alright, as well. I think that everyone is really ready to move on from this whole thing. To the rest of you: You all talk about how sick of this you are, but then cant help yourself from posting the same old crap on yet another whodunnit thread. This is bordering on obsessive compulsive behavior. Stop it. Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
w33b0b	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:03:00 - [129] Asherons call was amazing ... I played for years it was the best mmog I've played and I've played loads. The reason I left and many others I know had nothing to do with Macros it was the never ending nerfs ( tweaks ) to appease the balance god. It had in my opinion the best set up of any of the mmogs. The graphics were bettered by many but the ganeplay was unequalled... The allegations of insider dealing as it were by CCP don't concern me much at all. I don't believe there's widespread abuse and if there are a few incidents I can live with that. It's the constant nerfs that concern me. I don't expect things to be balanced ... some things should be better in some situations than others. And when a game gets as complicated as eve what we don't need is another 1000 options we need bug fixes and lag fixes. Chess only has eight different pieces and 64 squares and it's complicated enough and so is eve ...so fix what we have.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:07:00 - [130] Dark Shikira is my hero

MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:42:00 - [131] I must ask I never played this game your speaking of but did it release things like titans and walking and EvE voice (even if it's going to cost) and Sov, and buildable stations and contracts and new space and a way to make items your no suppose to be able to make, and moving all the belts or something common to the whole game since day 1 to a whole new system like exploration, and other things that Completely change and **** people off while making new players join? EvE hasn't entered a period of decline in the playerbase yet and walking isn't even out BAsicly were getting EvE 2 before they milk EVE for money. and they will keep changing things like moving your guns out side and making the skills take 40 days even if thousands of players leave because what does it do? it makes more people play I'm just wondering if this game you're speaking of did anything that make everyone go WOAH what? and not just new classes and races and monsters and attacks I'm talking whole new game fuctions good example is 1up.com which gave eve a 4 out of 10 4 years ago if you read games for windows they rereviews eve about 5 months ago and gave the game a 9/10 I have NEVER seena game do this ever This is why I play EVE because WoW was and even with the new expansion, the same thing, and it never changes even if the game is question is fun and epic :) earthbound is my favorite game ever :) but it got a lower score in a rereview resently and I didn't disagree with it. because it's old if you rereiewed the eve back in 2004, it would get a 2/10 now it would get a 8/10 in my book :)
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:48:00 - [132] Originally by: w33b0b Asherons call was amazing ... I played for years it was the best mmog I've played and I've played loads. The reason I left and many others I know had nothing to do with Macros it was the never ending nerfs ( tweaks ) to appease the balance god. It had in my opinion the best set up of any of the mmogs. The graphics were bettered by many but the ganeplay was unequalled... The allegations of insider dealing as it were by CCP don't concern me much at all. I don't believe there's widespread abuse and if there are a few incidents I can live with that. It's the constant nerfs that concern me. I don't expect things to be balanced ... some things should be better in some situations than others. And when a game gets as complicated as eve what we don't need is another 1000 options we need bug fixes and lag fixes. Chess only has eight different pieces and 64 squares and it's complicated enough and so is eve ...so fix what we have. QFT!! Macro's in AC, Combat or otherwise, were to help make up for the UI issues, Decal and the Plug-ins that people used were done to enhance play as the player saw it, and not by the whole... Had the AC Devs been given the time and resources, many of those macro's and TPA's may have been incorporated into the game (as several were early on). Nerfing in the name of Balance, Failure to advertise (for years), no way for new players to get the game (for years), no boxes on shelves (for years) are what hurt AC... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Ftuoil Xelrash	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:20:00 - [133] Directd To the orginal Poster: YOU are an IDIOT to try and even closely relate AC to EVE. As someone who has played AC since BETA, every single damn day till now, on the ONLY PVP server Dartide, I refute your accusations and ASSumptions. AC1 Died becuase the company who created it Turbine made about as many BAD decisions. Lets see, lets list a few... >Too many servers >HORRIBLE connectivity and LAG issues, even till this day with only like 300-400 people on the server at peek time Does Tubine care? Hell no, if you made a post on the AC forums, it would even tualy get locked, telling you "nothing is wrong" >GRIND, Rinse, Repeat... AC1 is old, crusty and more stale then my grand mothers underpants. The ONLY thing left to do in this game for older players is PVP. All quests with the eccption of like MAYBE 4 can be soloed and finished in less then a few hours. >DECAL... Although I am personaly one of the last of the Plug-in creators, upkeepers, and very much enjoy the great plugins i created for my guild, as well as the rest of the players on other server. I can tell you, this was a bad bad thing for AC1. It made EVERY as easy and click and walk away. Leveling, crafting, selling, and yes even doing nothing... Now after the damage has been done, Decal is the only thing keeping ppl around to play the game at all. Even the devlopers of Decal do not have aftive accounts and presume AC1 is going to die real quickly. >POOR content... Hey I know, lets make a game with 2938429386 monsters that ALL look the same but give them different names! This was pretty crappy idea they have abused for 7 years now. Makes me sick. >1999 Graphics engine, on freakin overload! I think that about sums that one up... >No advertisment... 3 exspanson releases..., millios of store in Americia... Not a single copy can be found. How are you supposed to get new players again >Billing... 1999 graphics and game play @ a 2007 price! What a bargin! >EXPLOITS, EXPLOITS, EXPLOTS Not to mention dupeing, dupeing and more dupeing. You can show them how to reproduce something, and they still deney it! >Lack of support... You can basily open up the in game help console click on the button that is labeled "URGENT ASSISTANCE" at any time of any day and type in all CAPPS as many coloful words you want to exspress your anger and never ever EVER even get a responce. ALL THE WHILE, out of the blue, vary rarely, some ****ed of Intern, will get the night shift stuck on urgent assistance, and take out his agressions randomly on a handfull of people with BANS from the game for doing something they have been getting away with In Game for months... Go figure.... They are, from my guess, AT LEAST 1000 accounts permantly banned from playing for one thing or another... That is real good for population and the pocket book... >Devloper Interaction... Huh? What? This game has developers still? Besides the VERY FEW(1) producer who does nothign more then sit on the forums and ban people all days for very heartfilled posts full of love for the game, there is NO developer-player interaction. They had the first actual "dev chat" a few months ago that has been held in like 2 years. It was on IRC, setup by a player, lasted like 20 minutes and went kinda like this. Player: Can you possibly do this? Dev: Not with the current tech Player: Can you possibly do this? Dev: No Player: Can you possibly do this? Dev: I don't really think so Player: Can you possibly do this? Dev: No Player" How about this? Dev: No Thank you for joining this chat. Good night >And just WHERE did all the money from AC1 go and how is all the dev time being spent? Easy answer, 2 VERY HORRILE games that are also fallign right into the AC2 pit of death If Tubine a winner they should have created a "REAL" AC1 exspansion instead of trash like AC2, D&D and LOTR Don't take this wrong, but i freaking LOVE AC1!!!!
Ftuoil Xelrash	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:21:00 - [134] CONT: I have lots of friends who do also. The game was the most orginal game ever EVER. I even played EVE BETA, but could not pull away from AC1 becuase of its power!
MasterDecoy Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.22 04:51:00 - [135] @ op OHNOES!!! my account > cancel subscription. thank you come again Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
Kirell	Posted - 2007.06.22 04:55:00 - [136] I would like to thank most people who have taken the time to write non falming/ on topic replies, while we all know everyone might not agree at it's always good to see some debate on an issue that walks a path avoiding the Forum Mod snippzors everywhere. cheers. Also, I happen to like EVE the pvp, the exploration and invention, and even sometimes the mining. And I've been playing well over 2.5 yrs.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.22 05:26:00 - [137] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:58:09 Hi goon! Quote: As many people know Asherons Call was a great game, first of it's kind with a new feel and a new way of doing nearly everything. It had a strong community, and a good subscribership at it's peak having to open a new server every few months to deal with the load. Alas after so much tim ein the Sun, Asherons Call perished (I'm sure AC2 bombing helped it as well) Except for a few loyal followers AC fell into the past. EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. Now the reason why I say it is doomed.... Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely Red Alliance) have reached far more than just the EVE community. Now no matter what Red Alliance accomplishes, even if they eventually control all of 0.0 space, or 90% of it or whatever they will have this hang over thier heads, and never truly be able to have thier accomplishment respected by players in game ( at least those that oppose Red Alliance) But this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" And while EVE still remains a great game, with alot of great things to come, I believe that in the not so distant future it will be joining Asherons Call on that lonely road, I am sure there will be the regular followers, the fanboi's of CCP trying to keep it alive, but with MMO's multiplying faster than rabbits people will move elsewhere quickly. Maybe you don't feel that way, which is good in some ways, or maybe you don't care.... it's no matter this is just my thoughts on EVE onlines future sustainability as a competetive MMO in the future to come. And no.... this isn't a Red Alliance thread... Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Discuss, please avoid flaming. all VALID opinions welcome. See, its like mad libs, it makes just as much sense! Tomorrow, we can use "Sparta Alliance" or "Kleptomaniacs"! (P.S. Subscription numbers are rising faster than ever, last I heard) lol Guess the OP shoulda said "please troll me" so DS could get an invite "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all)
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.22 05:31:00 - [138] Originally by: Ftuoil Xelrash Edited by: Ftuoil Xelrash on 21/06/2007 22:26:55 Edited by: Ftuoil Xelrash on 21/06/2007 22:24:23 CONT: I have lots of friends who do also. The game was the most orginal game ever EVER. I even played EVE BETA, but could not pull away from AC1 becuase of its power! AC1 could have went MUCH MUCH futher if they just gave a crap about the game a little. It lacks all the things EVE has by default. Hell it took the devs over 3 years of telling us no houseing, no secure storage to finaly do it. No in game trade system A SCREWED up enonomy. Everyone who is still playing has NO use for currence. It is worthless. I could hand out money all day long for 6 months and never get rid of it all. No MAIL or message system. I could just go on for days and days on how much better Eve is then AC Oh Ftuoil how I love you.... Blood / AoW FTW Dev's if your Ugly and you know it.. and Proud of it... Sign Below ;)
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.22 07:38:00 - [139] Originally by: Cadeus I personally miss the days of MOO, at least it gave the devs something to do and play the game to stop them :) But then again to me it seemed MOO at launch of EvE almost brought down the game by killing everyone in sight, and im sure discouraging people from playing anymore. Moo ftw
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.22 08:03:00 - [140] Sleepy as hell and sorry if this point was made already but... EVE was recently mentioned in the NY frigging Times! If only 1% of the people who read that go for a free trial that's at least (based on pop of NY) 140,000 new trials. Besides your friends sound like nancies. Oh so whinie voice "I read something negative about a game on forums. I refuse to even try it, FOR FREE, even though one of my friends told me it was cool. I believe random internet chat more than people I actually know." Better off w/o em. -Galan

Peter Powers Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.22 08:52:00 - [141] Kirell, Stop ***ing about Eve/CCP - if you dont like it, get lost, if you do like it - play. I cant read that "CCP ruined the game by playing themselves" bull** anymore. It are posts like yours or the ones by the Goons which have the effects your describing - not the developers playing their own game.
Xtro 2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.06.22 08:56:00 - [142] i stopped reading when you said "EVE online and AC have alot in common" no, im afraid they do not have anything in common whatsoever, they are completly and utterly different. Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder.
Peter Powers Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.22 08:59:00 - [143] Originally by: AegriSomnia To the OP: I hope you at least took the time to explain to your friends that despite what they have read online about EVE, the entire affair that came out HAS ABSOLUTLEY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER on 90% of the community. RAGoon/BoB/<insert your alliance name here> and their politics will be so frigging far removed from what you are going to be involved with in the first 2-3 months of playing, its not even worth thinking about. I hope you didnt turn into a wet noodle when they said that and didnt try to defend the game. The GAME is fantastic. CCP as a whole is pretty alright, as well. I think that everyone is really ready to move on from this whole thing. To the rest of you: You all talk about how sick of this you are, but then cant help yourself from posting the same old crap on yet another whodunnit thread. This is bordering on obsessive compulsive behavior. Stop it. Wow, serious, non-insulting words of a goon that actually make sense! Thanks! :-)
Pelf Matagraph	Posted - 2007.06.22 10:29:00 - [144] Originally by: Cadeus I personally miss the days of MOO, at least it gave the devs something to do and play the game to stop them :) But then again to me it seemed MOO at launch of EvE almost brought down the game by killing everyone in sight, and im sure discouraging people from playing anymore. You come very close to a point that has been rolling around my head this morning. The old m00 days: There's always going to be some uber corp/alliance smacking away in low sec. But the truth is these uber-tard squads come and go. No matter how big they are there is lots of room at the margins for normal players, corps, and alliances to grow (and indeed prosper). The "big bad uber cheese pirate alliances of the week" will come and go. I miss m00's entertainment value though, because as smacktards, their bravado and overall attitude was so full of "EVE Love".
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.22 10:49:00 - [145] 1st AC sucked hard. It was never good, it had low numbers cuz it was so bad, not because it was made more for adults. Your friends are worried about corruption in a GAME! They never even play. If someone told me the devs are corrupt in EQII I would of still played, asking them and what would happen, are they going to change my purple hat to orenge when i'm not looking running around snickering? Ahhh everyone is corrupt! Meh Shut it. A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills
E Vile	Posted - 2007.06.22 11:34:00 - [146] "Depending on the severity it's grounds for instant termination of their contract/job. What boundaries do you expect? Execution?" YES! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!! "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
E Vile	Posted - 2007.06.22 11:38:00 - [147] "Your friends are worried about corruption in a GAME! They never even play?" If I heard that before I played EVE, I must say I most likely would have never tried it. I had a bad experience with Star Wars Galaxies, and I like many are very leary about news like that. It is VERY important to trust the people running the MMO you plan on putting your time into for the long term. I don't think companies realize how important this is. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
d1v1n1ty	Posted - 2007.06.22 11:47:00 - [148] Originally by: Snake Jankins Originally by: Kirell I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" Yesterday we had over 30.000 and it's summertime for the northern hemisphere, where most subscribers live. I like this statement about the northern hemisphere....most of the world's land mass is in the northern hemisphere. All the same though - you're right about the summer...usually everyone is outside in the heat, not playing games. kewl.
Mysdora	Posted - 2007.06.22 11:49:00 - [149] So EVE is doomed because some morons who can't tell the difference between facts and internet rumors won't start playing the game? Oh noes, what a tragedy.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.22 11:57:00 - [150] Originally by: Hamfast I know real life is not supposed to be used in these threads, but I have a Real Life example... Your real life example is riddled with fallacies. Stop watching fox "news" is all i can say. It's like you are on Cheney and Rove's personal fax list ffs. Originally by: Hamfast Had Bob Come forward with the aforementioned BPO's (and any others the conspiracy types think exist) and said to CCP (Publicly) "These BPO's were provided to us under questionable circumstances", I would have less problems believing that nobody knew. Since when is a vet that leaves your corp and donates his bpo's to the people he has spend so much time with a questionable circumstance? When people recreated the "scandal" at the beginning of this year they demanded actions on the bpo's while Bob didn't get any official confirmation on the story that was put forth. Would you hand out your t2 bpo's just because some people are dramabombing the forum with accusations you can't verify? -- .sig apathy ftw

Sir Dancealot	Posted - 2007.06.22 12:02:00 - [151] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:57:33 Originally by: Kirell First this isn't a topic about "cheating" it's about CCP's own employees being too involved with player alliances and thus tarnishing the image of CCP's fair play within it's own game. Because clearly, a single BoB member joking about MSNing a dev and another single employee cheating while part of an alliance and getting disciplined for it is proof that CCP is getting way too involved with alliances. What next? The static complex removal in Revelations II was clearly an attack on RA: CCP MUST BE BOB ALTS! O GOD IT ALL MAKES SENSSE NOW [:SHOCK] Originally by: Incantare Thread does not deliver. I was expecting a story, funny, surprising or otherwise interesting. Instead I got to read Kehmor's smacking. Awesome.
Caztra Tor	Posted - 2007.06.22 12:48:00 - [152] In reply to the OP: You are correct that CCP has been damaged by their handling of the scandals. Indeed, I allowed my account to lapse on account of it. But, as you can see, I have returned. I have returned to see the outcome of this drama played out on the battlefields. I will accept only one result -- the displacement of bob from 0.0. Perhaps this is the result of tunnel vision, but, I equate all success against bob as a benefit to the game I love. It is that simple. bob must pay for their transgressions and, apparently, the player base is all there is to ensure that they do. The bob titan has fallen to RA/Goon ships. Come and join the anti-bob forces and get your pound of flesh today. Only we can save Eve -- UTKB!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.22 14:03:00 - [153] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Hamfast I know real life is not supposed to be used in these threads, but I have a Real Life example... Your real life example is riddled with fallacies. Stop watching fox "news" is all i can say. It's like you are on Cheney and Rove's personal fax list ffs. And who do you get your information from, MoveOn.org or the DNC? Originally by: prsr Originally by: Hamfast Had Bob Come forward with the aforementioned BPO's (and any others the conspiracy types think exist) and said to CCP (Publicly) "These BPO's were provided to us under questionable circumstances", I would have less problems believing that nobody knew. Since when is a vet that leaves your corp and donates his bpo's to the people he has spend so much time with a questionable circumstance? When people recreated the "scandal" at the beginning of this year they demanded actions on the bpo's while Bob didn't get any official confirmation on the story that was put forth. Would you hand out your t2 bpo's just because some people are dramabombing the forum with accusations you can't verify? If that "Vet" is a Dev and you knew it (as I suspect some in Bob knew), he drops a bunch of T2 BPO's into the Corp Coffers, then you find out he may have spawned those BPO's outside the rules? You are darn right I ask. If those BPO's were gained via correct channels, CCP can say so, were they not, CCP can tell you that too. I may not be able to verify the authenticity of the BPO's, but CCP can. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:01:00 - [154] I'm a fairly new player who arrived just in time to see the fireworks. I can tell you that I'm still playing the game, and have no problems, no matter how many times someone tries to bring it up. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Solas	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:37:00 - [155] I think the average new player would care less about the whole Bob thing. They would not understand the impact on such a unique game such as Eve. To be honest, I still dont consider it a big deal as long as CPP takes steps in the future to ensure a level playing field in the future.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:50:00 - [156] Edited by: prsr on 22/06/2007 15:49:59 Originally by: Hamfast And who do you get your information from, MoveOn.org or the DNC? First; I'm not a US citizen. I don't have to deal with everything being either black or white, democratic or republican, nor do my news sources. Second; If a person or organisation says something thats obviously not true, i expect media to jump on it, not present it like it is a valid position to be held. I'm not saying it's all sucky in the US, just a lot worse than what i'm used to. Originally by: Hamfast If that "Vet" is a Dev and you knew it (as I suspect some in Bob knew), he drops a bunch of T2 BPO's into the Corp Coffers, then you find out he may have spawned those BPO's outside the rules? You are darn right I ask. If those BPO's were gained via correct channels, CCP can say so, were they not, CCP can tell you that too. I may not be able to verify the authenticity of the BPO's, but CCP can. So, what is your problem then? After the whole thing was confirmed publicly by CCP the bpo's got destroyed. To make your accusations convincing you really do have to show that Bob was not only aware of T20's cheating during last summer, but also aware of what he had done that was considered cheating. -- .sig apathy ftw
Cadela Fria Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.06.22 16:14:00 - [157] The T20 thing is beating a dead horse, leave it alone. Besides, all of you anti-CCP people, think about this for a second: CCP admits that some foul play happened: You all believe them, it must be true! it's CCP! THE COMPANY ITSELF! :o CCP then later, on a different issue says nothing is going on, on several incidents..even provides proof: LIARS!! LIARS I SAY!! ARGHH!! IT MUST NOT BE TRUE BECAUSE ITS THE COMPANY ITSE....oh wait....what were we just saying a few seconds ago?... ------- Incase you don't understand what I'm saying, heres a link that might shed some light on just the kind of people you're behaving like: The Witch Enjoy! Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Onchas Erivvia Black Eclipse Corp	Posted - 2007.06.22 16:34:00 - [158] Originally by: Hamfast T20 was in Bob, Some in Bob knew who T20 was, T20 cheated, T20 was outed, the person that outed T20 was banned, several months later some T2 BPO's were tied to that cheating and reclaimed... Who in BoB knew? You're stating it as a fact, so back it up. Who knew? The person who outted T20 was banned because of how they went about discovering the incident. The community did not become aware of the incident until something like six months after the case was investigated by CCP and resolved, upon hearing about the incident the BPO was RETURNED by BoB leadership, not RECLAIMED by CCP. Quote: You can believe all you want that nobody in Bob knew (before, during or after the fact) that T20 cheated and the BPO's he made available were not gained under the rules, but I find it hard to believe... Oh, so now it's a matter of belief. Got it. I know two Devs from my last alliance. Both have T2 BPOs. How do I know they acquired them through game mechanisms and not by spawning them? There was a spawning incident before the T20 one that was mentioned at the time this all came out. It's not the first time this has happened. Quote: Had Bob Come forward with the aforementioned BPO's (and any others the conspiracy types think exist) and said to CCP (Publicly) "These BPO's were provided to us under questionable circumstances", I would have less problems believing that nobody knew. As opposed to what did happen which was immediately upon finding out the circumstances upon which the BPO was acquired, it was returned. Your little moralization is built upon an assumption, one that you think is justified yet there's no evidence. Your belief is based totally on your desire for it to be true. But I think it's far more likely that someone doing something illegal like spawn a BPO would not tell a soul. Unfortunately there have been other incidents of improper Dev and GM behaviour (I wonder how many people have benefited from favourable GM decisions, including totally fabricated petitions), it will likely happen again. As a community, all we can do is to continue to demand of CCP to hold their staff accountable and to prioritize the tools they need to monitor their staff (both developers and community volunteers). These sorts of baseless accusations against people, however, doesn't help solve the problems that need to be solved. ------------------------------------------ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"' Teh Onchinator' Personal Assistant to MrsPitman
Johncrab Minmatar Typo Corp	Posted - 2007.06.22 19:11:00 - [159] Enough with this crap and lets play the ***** game. The player base has showned CCP how they fill, it's time to let it go and enjoy the game for ** sake.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.22 19:29:00 - [160] So much funà LetÆs see prsr, you said (using this quote) that my example is full of fallacies and that I should stop watching Fox Newsà Originally by: prsr Originally by: Hamfast I know real life is not supposed to be used in these threads, but I have a Real Life example... Your real life example is riddled with fallacies. Stop watching fox "news" is all i can say. It's like you are on Cheney and Rove's personal fax list ffs. This was my whole real life exampleà Originally by: Hamfast I know real life is not supposed to be used in these threads, but I have a Real Life example... al-Qa'ida was not in Iraq... al-Qa'ida was in the US, Europe, Asia, Africa... but not in Iraq... You can believe that al-Qa'ida was not in Iraq all you want... but I really find it hard to believe. When I asked where you got your news from, you repliedà Originally by: prsr Edited by: prsr on 22/06/2007 15:49:59 Originally by: Hamfast And who do you get your information from, MoveOn.org or the DNC? First; I'm not a US citizen. I don't have to deal with everything being either black or white, democratic or republican, nor do my news sources. Second; If a person or organisation says something thats obviously not true, i expect media to jump on it, not present it like it is a valid position to be held. I'm not saying it's all sucky in the US, just a lot worse than what i'm used to. So your news services have shown you thatà al-QaÆida was not in Iraqà al-QaÆida may have been in the US, Europe, Asia, Africaà but they were not in Iraqà And you believe themà Then you ask: Originally by: prsr So, what is your problem then? After the whole thing was confirmed publicly by CCP the bpo's got destroyed. Look at the post that DBPreacher made upon the loss of their titanà Read some of his other postsà I have read several on multiple sitesà He is a very articulate, reasonable sounding person. Lost a Titan, did not make excuses, just posted the loss and congratulated the folks that did it inà I have no doubt that had this reasonable sounding, articulate person had posted during that 6 month span between when T20 and his misconduct were revealed and CCP finally admitted to it (they knew of the misconduct early on, punished T20, but not to the level that the Company Rules said he should have been because those that should have made that call were on vacation) that: ôIn light of the possible misconduct items that had been donated by the character that turned out to be T20 had been made available to CCP, checked, and those determined to have been gained via illicit means had been removed from playà ô But it has not been exposed until today that in truth, Originally by: Onchas Erivvia ôupon hearing about the incident the BPO was RETURNED by BoB leadership, not RECLAIMED by CCP.ö Why did it take Onchas Erivvia to reveal this information, when 6 months ago, DBPreacher could have? If he did, feel free to point out the post, I would be interested in reading it. None of us is as dumb as all of us...

solbright altaltalt	Posted - 2007.06.23 02:25:00 - [161] New players don't give a **** about the politics. They do, however, care when the game is unplayable, ie: The experience is jerky, locks up all the time, doesn't show them what is happening or why they died, or even fails to run at all. First thoughts are wonder if this game will be made into a commercial quality one. This is Eve's biggest barrier imho. The fact that anyone pays for Eve is testament to the tremendous functional design of the game.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.23 03:13:00 - [162] Originally by: Kirell Political metagaming bullshiat.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.23 04:25:00 - [163] If the bad publicity doesnt kill it... If the appearance of a griefer's paradise doesnt kill it... If the forums seeming to be a troll haven doesnt kill it... If the politics doesnt kill it.... If CCP doesnt kill it... "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
Malarki Cheddar	Posted - 2007.06.23 04:44:00 - [164] Doomsaying alt. If only the rest of us could look into our magic balls.
Kern Hotha	Posted - 2007.06.23 04:51:00 - [165] It is not doomed, but the company needs to react better to real or unreal allegations of corruption. The fact that t20 is still employed by CCP is astounding all these months later. The ridiculous ***fest that the Something Awful moron brigade caused recently was handled pretty poorly too. --- Be true to your work, your word, and your friend.* Henry David Thoreau
Broska coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.23 04:58:00 - [166] I think the majority of the EVE community's possition on this is: If you don't like EVE. **** OFF! oh and can I have your stuff? ------------------------------ Originally by:* Tovarishch flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
BhallSpawn	Posted - 2007.06.23 06:56:00 - [167] "CCP didn't tarnish it's reputations. Several customers did. And yeah it's bad for business. But EVE isn't even close to going the AC way. So I wouldn't worry about it." Going a month without a word from the company your paying about stuff that should have been front page the first day. Yea.. I'm pretty sure CCP had something to do with its reputation going to hell.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:05:00 - [168] Blasphemia! Other MMOs all die because they have too many shards. When business is good, they have more shards. When business is bad, they have less shards. Less shards make community feels empty and the community dies when they downsize their shards. eVe will never die because there is no sharding. The community is always there. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:07:00 - [169] Originally by: Kern Hotha It is not doomed, but the company needs to react better to real or unreal allegations of corruption. The fact that t20 is still employed by CCP is astounding all these months later. The ridiculous ****fest that the Something Awful moron brigade caused recently was handled pretty poorly too. IIRC, the issue with t20 is that he'd already been disciplined when the scandal broke, and Icelandic law prevented any further action being taken against him. CCP admitted that this was due to poor prodecure on their part.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:51:00 - [170] Sadly this is a doomsaying main kthx "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)

Onchas Erivvia Black Eclipse Corp	Posted - 2007.06.23 10:51:00 - [171] Originally by: Hamfast Why did it take Onchas Erivvia to reveal this information, when 6 months ago, DBPreacher could have? If he did, feel free to point out the post, I would be interested in reading it. Ah, yes, because my entire post was just one line, right? How about you handle the criticisms of your post that I actually made. That one line was a side-issue to a broader criticism of your fabrication and construction of a story using unsubstantiated claims and baseless assumptions. Yet, suddenly it's my responsibility to dig back through and pull out quotes? Dude, you've done absolutely nothing to substantiate any of the dozens of dubious claims you've made, and suddenly everyone else is responsible for proving their counter-arguments? You're either a troll or stupid, neither should be dignified with a response. If you take the time to provide the evidence you need to support your claim, I'll go pull the posts for you. ------------------------------------------ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"' Teh Onchinator' Personal Assistant to MrsPitman
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:37:00 - [172] Originally by: Kirell Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Hmmm well I find that odd... I very much doubt any of my friends would launch into "I'm not playing EVE online or even going to try it because the Dev's are corrupt". Unless I had taken my tin foil hat off... that's when they get you
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:48:00 - [173] all publicity is good publicity _________________________________________________________ DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Fwaatcha Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.06.23 13:31:00 - [174] OMG Asherons call!!!! I had a screenshot of killing "Blood" on DT with my level 72 battlemage ....Years ago but still a top notch memory.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.23 21:41:00 - [175] did you know that wow is slowly dying ? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
trikish	Posted - 2007.06.23 22:22:00 - [176] actually he is right... they have lost a hell lot of players on that, both old and new comming. if they just said known ccp employees charecters will be removed and are not allowed to have ingame charecters since this is costing too much for eve... this would actually help eve... well nvm ccp don't care for any one BUT bob (themself)
tommit	Posted - 2007.06.23 22:24:00 - [177] Originally by: E Vile "Depending on the severity it's grounds for instant termination of their contract/job. What boundaries do you expect? Execution?" YES! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!! you didnt follow the incident i can hear... they havent fired the responsible people.
maccrat	Posted - 2007.06.23 22:37:00 - [178] never played asherons call but eve has a very long life span yet i wouldent worry
Tetsujin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.24 00:28:00 - [179] Originally by: Dark Shikari Hi goon! Dark Shikari I am sorry to tell you but goons don't type very well-constructed sentences let alone paragraphs let alone multiple paragraphs in the same post!
Admiral Seafort DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:30:00 - [180] Kirell your point (or lack thereof) kind of sucks. Circumstantial evidence and conjecture are not very compelling. ----- It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it.

Pelf Matagraph	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:38:00 - [181] Originally by: SiJira did you know that wow is slowly dying ? You are right. The old servers from release which I started on are very much abandoned. Oh they got a little busy during the expansion, but then dropped off. The problem with the game is that damned 70 level cap. it's not sustainable for years and years as a game.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:38:00 - [182] Originally by: tommit Originally by: E Vile "Depending on the severity it's grounds for instant termination of their contract/job. What boundaries do you expect? Execution?" YES! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!! you didnt follow the incident i can hear... they havent fired the responsible people. Yes this is true... the penalty for being caught NOW is termination... this is true... but apparently, some convienient Icelandic law says you cannot be punished twice for something you have already been punished for in the past. "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:41:00 - [183] Originally by: SiJira did you know that wow is slowly dying ? Yeah... 8 million subsrciptions shows how badly they are hurting for players.... But yeah that game wasnt made for longevity imho... the whole game is basically gribnding to get to 70 then when you get there.... grind for rep grind for pvp set grind to get armor sets...... "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:44:00 - [184] Originally by: trikish actually he is right... they have lost a hell lot of players on that, both old and new comming. if they just said known ccp employees charecters will be removed and are not allowed to have ingame charecters since this is costing too much for eve... this would actually help eve... well nvm ccp don't care for any one BUT bob (themself) Having staff play the game is a great idea.. If you found out Microsoft staff only used Fedora and OpenOffice then how would that make them sell more? Do you think that annoying bugs get fixed faster, or slower, when someone who might deal with those issues actually see's it happen to them a few times a week. Balace issues arent all about raw numbers (if they were, then games wouldnt spend years trying to balance weapons and such), having a dev who plays the game can really make a difference with some of those balance issues. I support (and would activly encourge) devs of any software (or any product for that matter) to use their own stuff. If I found out that the American Airlines CEO only flys Delta then I wouldnt get on their planes ;)... Cheating happens in ALL games, I imagine that the KNOWN amount of PLAYER cheating, and PLAYER BOUGHT ISK (Goons have purchased a LOT of isk from my understanding) would dwarf any amount of ASSUMED Dev/Staff cheating.. Non-Paid ISD need to be removed from EVE however, as they generally take no penalty in doing bad deeds.. (I'd rather see paid ISD members than an EveTelevision show)...
Admiral Seafort DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:48:00 - [185] Originally by: DeODokktor Originally by: trikish actually he is right... they have lost a hell lot of players on that, both old and new comming. if they just said known ccp employees charecters will be removed and are not allowed to have ingame charecters since this is costing too much for eve... this would actually help eve... well nvm ccp don't care for any one BUT bob (themself) Having staff play the game is a great idea.. If you found out Microsoft staff only used Fedora and OpenOffice then how would that make them sell more? Do you think that annoying bugs get fixed faster, or slower, when someone who might deal with those issues actually see's it happen to them a few times a week. Balace issues arent all about raw numbers (if they were, then games wouldnt spend years trying to balance weapons and such), having a dev who plays the game can really make a difference with some of those balance issues. I support (and would activly encourge) devs of any software (or any product for that matter) to use their own stuff. If I found out that the American Airlines CEO only flys Delta then I wouldnt get on their planes ;)... Cheating happens in ALL games, I imagine that the KNOWN amount of PLAYER cheating, and PLAYER BOUGHT ISK (Goons have purchased a LOT of isk from my understanding) would dwarf any amount of ASSUMED Dev/Staff cheating.. Non-Paid ISD need to be removed from EVE however, as they generally take no penalty in doing bad deeds.. (I'd rather see paid ISD members than an EveTelevision show)... Office applications and airlines are not competitive internet games. People do not compete within office applications, nor within airplane cabins. Please draw a more appropriate metaphor. ----- It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it.
The Blinded	Posted - 2007.06.24 01:49:00 - [186] Edited by: The Blinded on 24/06/2007 01:50:48 This game is never going to make much more of itself for two simple reasons that I have stated else where and will state here again: Originally by: The Blinded the players of this game dont want more ppl playing it and the company couldnt give a **** wether or not you stay. Noobs come into the game and if the elitist forum farriors run them away, CCP's cavalier attiude of "if you dont like the way we run things, heres the door." will. Its kinda funny when both the ingrained players of the game AND the arrogant company BOTH tell New players "if you dont like it go play WoW". THIS is going to kill this game. >> No you cant have my stuff, when I leave Im taking it with me cause im greedy like that >>
Feilamya Minmatar Against all Rules SOUL CARTEL	Posted - 2007.06.24 02:02:00 - [187] Originally by: Kirell We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community. ... and that's how lots of players (such as me) became aware of EVE. I can't speak for others, but for me, what I've read about the game itself (you can't write a news story about BoB and CCP outside the EVE community without writing about EVE) was much more interesting than the details about CCP helping BoB. I got curious, tried to find other EVE players on forums to ask them questions about the game, read the intro and player guide on eve-online.com and after a while I was convinced that EVE was an alternative, and probably the only one, to the mmo I had played for four years then. And after some time I decided to switch to EVE. The story about BoB didn't scare me off. On the contrary, it is good advertising for the game to show that the devs like to play their own creation. If I'm not the only one who discovered EVE that way, then those incidents of developer misconduct might have been best publicity CCP could have wished for. But I see FNORDs on the scanner now, so I better stop before the conspiracy theorists warp in.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.24 02:04:00 - [188] Originally by: Feilamya Originally by: Kirell We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community. ... and that's how lots of players (such as me) became aware of EVE. I can't speak for others, but for me, what I've read about the game itself (you can't write a news story about BoB and CCP outside the EVE community without writing about EVE) was much more interesting than the details about CCP helping BoB. I got curious, tried to find other EVE players on forums to ask them questions about the game, read the intro and player guide on eve-online.com and after a while I was convinced that EVE was an alternative, and probably the only one, to the mmo I had played for four years then. And after some time I decided to switch to EVE. The story about BoB didn't scare me off. On the contrary, it is good advertising for the game to show that the devs like to play their own creation. If I'm not the only one who discovered EVE that way, then those incidents of developer misconduct might have been best publicity CCP could have wished for. But I see FNORDs on the scanner now, so I better stop before the conspiracy theorists warp in. Confirmation that Bad Publicity = free pubilicity and any publicity = good lol "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
Picolo	Posted - 2007.06.24 02:27:00 - [189] me puts on t2 tinfoil hat
Picolo	Posted - 2007.06.24 02:27:00 - [190] me puts on t2 tinfoil hat

Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.24 03:02:00 - [191] You know, I thought about this, driving to a friend's house today. EVE like will never actually die so long as EVE can wring money from it. I realized that even IF CCP were to decide that it wasnt worth it anymore and were to change the game so horribly that most ppl left certain ppl would STILL play the game cause everything CCP does is gold to them. The ONLY way these ppl will ever stop playing this game is if CCP turns the game off perminantly and as I stated before.... "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.24 03:47:00 - [192] <<Insert boulevard of broken dreams here>> moo! If its not an exploit then its fair game
RabidCoyote	Posted - 2007.06.24 04:10:00 - [193] Interesting thread. I heard about this problem of CCP employees before I started the trial. And, to be honest, I'ts been in the back of my mind for the entire trial. I'm not too concerned about it becuase I'm starting to find the game to be alittle too slow and boring. But, If I do decide to take the jump and subscribe and stick with the game, it would really suick to have to deal with this kind of stuff.
Rylet VanDorn Pastafarians Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.06.24 04:22:00 - [194] Edited by: Rylet VanDorn on 24/06/2007 04:21:48 I 100% agree with the guy, and I have absolutely no political affiliation pro or anti BoB. Playing EvE Online is like playing on a private server for any other MMO. Tons of bugs, new stuff is implemented while huge imbalances exist, and the people who run the game are not impartial to political machinations. Hell, even being able to purchase Time Cards and turn those straight into ISK is almost like the "Donation" system most private servers have. You can try to shove these types of arguements under the rug as "Political Rhetoric" all you want, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that the developers of any game should not have god access to the same servers they themselves have characters on, unless the realm is designated for testing purposes only.
GPerson Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.06.24 05:10:00 - [195] Originally by: The Blinded Edited by: The Blinded on 24/06/2007 01:50:48 This game is never going to make much more of itself for two simple reasons that I have stated else where and will state here again: Originally by: The Blinded the players of this game dont want more ppl playing it and the company couldnt give a **** wether or not you stay. Noobs come into the game and if the elitist forum farriors run them away, CCP's cavalier attiude of "if you dont like the way we run things, heres the door." will. Its kinda funny when both the ingrained players of the game AND the arrogant company BOTH tell New players "if you dont like it go play WoW". THIS is going to kill this game. Nope. Quite the opposite in my mind. Our attitude keeps people who simply don't have the mentality required for this game out. They don't wind up playing a game they don't like, and we don't have to deal with them whining about core features of the game. ~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005.
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.24 05:16:00 - [196] Originally by: GPerson Originally by: The Blinded Edited by: The Blinded on 24/06/2007 01:50:48 This game is never going to make much more of itself for two simple reasons that I have stated else where and will state here again: Originally by: The Blinded the players of this game dont want more ppl playing it and the company couldnt give a **** wether or not you stay. Noobs come into the game and if the elitist forum farriors run them away, CCP's cavalier attiude of "if you dont like the way we run things, heres the door." will. Its kinda funny when both the ingrained players of the game AND the arrogant company BOTH tell New players "if you dont like it go play WoW". THIS is going to kill this game. Nope. Quite the opposite in my mind. Our attitude keeps people who simply don't have the mentality required for this game out. They don't wind up playing a game they don't like, and we don't have to deal with them whining about core features of the game. Riiiiiiight EVE doesnt NEED new ppl coming into the game.... moo! If its not an exploit then its fair game
Jaikar Isillia The Vinlanders Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.24 06:09:00 - [197] Originally by: Darth Moo Originally by: GPerson Originally by: The Blinded Edited by: The Blinded on 24/06/2007 01:50:48 This game is never going to make much more of itself for two simple reasons that I have stated else where and will state here again: Originally by: The Blinded the players of this game dont want more ppl playing it and the company couldnt give a **** wether or not you stay. Noobs come into the game and if the elitist forum farriors run them away, CCP's cavalier attiude of "if you dont like the way we run things, heres the door." will. Its kinda funny when both the ingrained players of the game AND the arrogant company BOTH tell New players "if you dont like it go play WoW". THIS is going to kill this game. Nope. Quite the opposite in my mind. Our attitude keeps people who simply don't have the mentality required for this game out. They don't wind up playing a game they don't like, and we don't have to deal with them whining about core features of the game. Riiiiiiight EVE doesnt NEED new ppl coming into the game.... No you misunderstand, EVE wants new people but not whining noobs who don't have the mental capacity or tolerance to play EVE. So players provide the service linking them to worldofwarcraft.com. Can I make it any more clear?
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.24 08:33:00 - [198] right and that elitist attitude is gonna draw noobs to us like flies to.... Youve already judged and weighed everyone looking to get into this game and if they dont live up to your ideals then they arent worthy... You arent one of those BoB alts I keep hearing about are you? As Ive heard that they espouse such "better breeding better gene" thinking that you seem to be having. moo! If its not an exploit then its fair game
Ja'kar kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.24 11:16:00 - [199] I see the argument you're making but you're forgetting "Internal Affairs" now exists, I can only guess that they either made this in a last ditch attempt to make players happy or that cheating really was / is that rampant. yah thats gonna work
Mr Smartypants Amarr Dragon Mining And Fighters Inc	Posted - 2007.06.24 16:51:00 - [200] Originally by: Lady Trade - this sucks because i'll take 2 years to be able to fly ship X or build Y and i'll never be able to catch up Its true though isnt it? If you werent part Eve from day one there will always be someone who is higher in the foodchain and theres nothing, absolutely zilch you can do which will make you suddenly on a balanced ground. Originally by: Lady Trade - this is a game for saddistic lunatics that like damaging others Of course it seems like that when you discover how the Skill system of Eve works and how PvP is based on the use of those skills, there isnt anything you can do after picking up the game so far after launch to not become a default victim from the saddistic lunatics so why not tell it how it is? Originally by: Lady Trade - there is little to no guidance for new players, you have to make your own life and don't get it served to you on a gold platter. Thats was what I found fun about Eve until I discovered the above two issues, long story short I knew id always be the noob in the game because I didnt start skilling on its launch date. Going nowhere, slowly seems like an adiquate phrase to use. Originally by: Lady Trade - it's to complicated to be fun and requires to much micro management Quote: while i personally disagree with all the above points (to some extent at least) they are all more or less valid arguments to stop playing. (but people that have these problems are way better of with hello kitty online or WoW) And some people are better off in a game that by default makes players more "skilled" because they had an account running for a longer duration than the....noob ever did. Seriously are you telling me and other newcomers that we should make 'lemonade' for the rest of our natural lives in Eve by default design and 'enjoy' that? The real reason why Eve isnt as popular as your strawman examples (Hello Kitty/WoW) is because as soon a new subscription on those games is made, that account is not indefinatly stuck in Newb land. Originally by: Lady Trade on the other hand not ONE of the new players that quit again was whining about cheating devs so frankly i don't agree with your assumption that "eve is doomed". I would say the above issue is the final nail in the coffin, I didnt hear about the scandel until I browsed here for a while. Thankfully when my 14 day trial is over ill thin your subscription base by 1 and also bring your PvP standards up by 1. (Did you see what I did there?)

Sharra Savente Shai'tan's Elite	Posted - 2007.06.24 17:00:00 - [201] glances at the player count Breaking 32,000 right now.... Yup, Eve is dead:P English doesn't borrow from other languages; it follows other languages down dark alleys, coshes them, then rummages in their pockets for loose grammar.
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.24 21:10:00 - [202] Well, according to the dude at top of the page, EVE is wormfood if WoW is dying with 8 MILLION accounts or so... moo! If its not an exploit then its fair game
Scientistae	Posted - 2007.06.24 21:25:00 - [203] I agree fully with the thoughts of the first post in this thread. EVE has gotten a bad rep due to the allegations on misbehaviour of its own devs. NO MATTER WHAT/HOW/WHERE/WHY and IF something really happened or who it supposedly involved. People just don't want to join a game with a tarnished reputation. I can see Bob's getting ****** off with the accusations/pointed finger, but the main problem of a small playerbase remains and involves us all. Lesser players will, eventually, mean raised subscription costs for all of us, and that is a real problem. I for one, would really like to see some serious advertisment from CCP's side so that this game grows..heck, I invest all my spare time in their product. As a customer of their service I demand constant improvement on all fronts, and a larger playerbase is just one of the things on my wish-list.
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.25 01:14:00 - [204] Originally by: Mr Smartypants Originally by: Lady Trade - this sucks because i'll take 2 years to be able to fly ship X or build Y and i'll never be able to catch up Its true though isnt it? If you werent part Eve from day one there will always be someone who is higher in the foodchain and theres nothing, absolutely zilch you can do which will make you suddenly on a balanced ground. Originally by: Lady Trade - this is a game for saddistic lunatics that like damaging others Of course it seems like that when you discover how the Skill system of Eve works and how PvP is based on the use of those skills, there isnt anything you can do after picking up the game so far after launch to not become a default victim from the saddistic lunatics so why not tell it how it is? Originally by: Lady Trade - there is little to no guidance for new players, you have to make your own life and don't get it served to you on a gold platter. Thats was what I found fun about Eve until I discovered the above two issues, long story short I knew id always be the noob in the game because I didnt start skilling on its launch date. Going nowhere, slowly seems like an adiquate phrase to use. Originally by: Lady Trade - it's to complicated to be fun and requires to much micro management Quote: while i personally disagree with all the above points (to some extent at least) they are all more or less valid arguments to stop playing. (but people that have these problems are way better of with hello kitty online or WoW) And some people are better off in a game that by default makes players more "skilled" because they had an account running for a longer duration than the....noob ever did. Seriously are you telling me and other newcomers that we should make 'lemonade' for the rest of our natural lives in Eve by default design and 'enjoy' that? The real reason why Eve isnt as popular as your strawman examples (Hello Kitty/WoW) is because as soon a new subscription on those games is made, that account is not indefinatly stuck in Newb land. Originally by: Lady Trade on the other hand not ONE of the new players that quit again was whining about cheating devs so frankly i don't agree with your assumption that "eve is doomed". I would say the above issue is the final nail in the coffin, I didnt hear about the scandel until I browsed here for a while. Thankfully when my 14 day trial is over ill thin your subscription base by 1 and also bring your PvP standards up by 1. (Did you see what I did there?) QFT moo! If its not an exploit then its fair game
Gladia Horusthu Gallente Ordo Pondera	Posted - 2007.06.25 06:14:00 - [205] Originally by: Mr Smartypants Originally by: Lady Trade - this sucks because i'll take 2 years to be able to fly ship X or build Y and i'll never be able to catch up Its true though isnt it? If you werent part Eve from day one there will always be someone who is higher in the foodchain and theres nothing, absolutely zilch you can do which will make you suddenly on a balanced ground. Originally by: Lady Trade - this is a game for saddistic lunatics that like damaging others Of course it seems like that when you discover how the Skill system of Eve works and how PvP is based on the use of those skills, there isnt anything you can do after picking up the game so far after launch to not become a default victim from the saddistic lunatics so why not tell it how it is? Originally by: Lady Trade - there is little to no guidance for new players, you have to make your own life and don't get it served to you on a gold platter. Thats was what I found fun about Eve until I discovered the above two issues, long story short I knew id always be the noob in the game because I didnt start skilling on its launch date. Going nowhere, slowly seems like an adiquate phrase to use. Originally by: Lady Trade - it's to complicated to be fun and requires to much micro management Quote: while i personally disagree with all the above points (to some extent at least) they are all more or less valid arguments to stop playing. (but people that have these problems are way better of with hello kitty online or WoW) And some people are better off in a game that by default makes players more "skilled" because they had an account running for a longer duration than the....noob ever did. Seriously are you telling me and other newcomers that we should make 'lemonade' for the rest of our natural lives in Eve by default design and 'enjoy' that? The real reason why Eve isnt as popular as your strawman examples (Hello Kitty/WoW) is because as soon a new subscription on those games is made, that account is not indefinatly stuck in Newb land. Originally by: Lady Trade on the other hand not ONE of the new players that quit again was whining about cheating devs so frankly i don't agree with your assumption that "eve is doomed". I would say the above issue is the final nail in the coffin, I didnt hear about the scandel until I browsed here for a while. Thankfully when my 14 day trial is over ill thin your subscription base by 1 and also bring your PvP standards up by 1. (Did you see what I did there?) OK, here's a common misperception. There are only 5 levels to any one skill. You train Gallente Frigate 5, you are as good as any 4 year vet in that. You train Small Hybrids to 5, you just tied any 4 year vet in that. You train Small Blaster or Railgun Specialization, and you will be using T2 just like any vet in a Gallente frigate. And I have seen plenty of small roaming gangs in both lowsec and 0.0 featuring setups such as that, particularly if you add a point onto it. If it's the time thing, yeah, you will have to train for years to catch up to the vets in capital ships-- just like they did. And then you'll be as good in them as they are, too. And if you're not into investing a couple years into Eve, you'll NEVER be that good. Because that is what it takes. They worked for it, you have to as well. I'm a vet, and I started over, and have encountered no problems so far in progressing. In fact, I am able to progress faster than the first time. Things are a LOT easier to achieve than when the vets were noobs. You can compete, if you have the same will and staying power as those in power today.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:02:00 - [206] Originally by: Gladia Horusthu Originally by: Mr Smartypants Originally by: Lady Trade - this sucks because i'll take 2 years to be able to fly ship X or build Y and i'll never be able to catch up Its true though isnt it? If you werent part Eve from day one there will always be someone who is higher in the foodchain and theres nothing, absolutely zilch you can do which will make you suddenly on a balanced ground. Originally by: Lady Trade - this is a game for saddistic lunatics that like damaging others Of course it seems like that when you discover how the Skill system of Eve works and how PvP is based on the use of those skills, there isnt anything you can do after picking up the game so far after launch to not become a default victim from the saddistic lunatics so why not tell it how it is? Originally by: Lady Trade - there is little to no guidance for new players, you have to make your own life and don't get it served to you on a gold platter. Thats was what I found fun about Eve until I discovered the above two issues, long story short I knew id always be the noob in the game because I didnt start skilling on its launch date. Going nowhere, slowly seems like an adiquate phrase to use. Originally by: Lady Trade - it's to complicated to be fun and requires to much micro management Quote: while i personally disagree with all the above points (to some extent at least) they are all more or less valid arguments to stop playing. (but people that have these problems are way better of with hello kitty online or WoW) And some people are better off in a game that by default makes players more "skilled" because they had an account running for a longer duration than the....noob ever did. Seriously are you telling me and other newcomers that we should make 'lemonade' for the rest of our natural lives in Eve by default design and 'enjoy' that? The real reason why Eve isnt as popular as your strawman examples (Hello Kitty/WoW) is because as soon a new subscription on those games is made, that account is not indefinatly stuck in Newb land. Originally by: Lady Trade on the other hand not ONE of the new players that quit again was whining about cheating devs so frankly i don't agree with your assumption that "eve is doomed". I would say the above issue is the final nail in the coffin, I didnt hear about the scandel until I browsed here for a while. Thankfully when my 14 day trial is over ill thin your subscription base by 1 and also bring your PvP standards up by 1. (Did you see what I did there?) OK, here's a common misperception. There are only 5 levels to any one skill. You train Gallente Frigate 5, you are as good as any 4 year vet in that. You train Small Hybrids to 5, you just tied any 4 year vet in that. You train Small Blaster or Railgun Specialization, and you will be using T2 just like any vet in a Gallente frigate. And I have seen plenty of small roaming gangs in both lowsec and 0.0 featuring setups such as that, particularly if you add a point onto it. If it's the time thing, yeah, you will have to train for years to catch up to the vets in capital ships-- just like they did. And then you'll be as good in them as they are, too. And if you're not into investing a couple years into Eve, you'll NEVER be that good. Because that is what it takes. They worked for it, you have to as well. I'm a vet, and I started over, and have encountered no problems so far in progressing. In fact, I am able to progress faster than the first time. Things are a LOT easier to achieve than when the vets were noobs. You can compete, if you have the same LACK OF AN IRL LIFE AND/OR JOB as those in power today. Fixed yer typo ======================================== "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
fightnkill Dark Blade Incorporated	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:12:00 - [207] One of my worries when playing Eve is that the creators; Some members of CCP are still Biased towards one group of Players (BOB). Yeah, I know that there are few unbiased Devs that''s trying their best and honestly not trying to smear their Company's reputation. Cheers to them Even thou CCP is trying to assure us that there arn't any biased mods in their company, It is impossible for them to determine what goes in the minds of their employees. So there is a high probability that there are some biased mods still. The events following the death of "Darwin's Contraption" may be an evidence since whenever BoB kills a Titan, Many members of CCP tries to glorify BoB's achievement. However on the other hand, when the enemies of BoB makes any sort of major achievement, they don't do anything. On the otherhand, Some of the update from Tuesday indicates that there are Fair mods in the play as well. For example, the Nerfing of DD. They make Eve a better place for everyone, while Biased mods ruin the game for huge portion of Eve while favoring the tiny portion. So my point is, even thou there are some bad fruits in CCP, there are good fruits as well. We shouldn't really generalize Entire CCP (INCLUDING THE HONEST DEVS) from the actions of few Biased devs. We should SUPPORT the unbiased devs, and fight against corruption! DOWN WITH CORRUPT DEVS!
Milena Rage The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:47:00 - [208] Originally by: fightnkill Edited by: fightnkill on 25/06/2007 07:17:00 One of my worries when playing Eve is that the creators; Some members of CCP are still Biased towards one group of Players (BOB). Yeah, I know that there are few unbiased Devs that''s trying their best and honestly not trying to smear their Company's reputation. Cheers to them Even thou CCP is trying to assure us that there arn't any biased mods in their company, It is impossible for them to determine what goes in the minds of their employees. So there is a high probability that there are some biased mods still. The events following the death of "Darwin's Contraption" may be an evidence since whenever BoB kills a Titan, Many members of CCP tries to glorify BoB's achievement. However on the other hand, when the enemies of BoB makes any sort of major achievement, they don't do anything. On the otherhand, Some of the update from Tuesday indicates that there are Fair mods in the play as well. For example, the Nerfing of DD. They make Eve a better place for everyone, while Biased mods ruin the game for huge portion of Eve while favoring the tiny portion. So my point is, even thou there are some bad fruits in CCP, there are good fruits as well. We shouldn't really generalize Entire CCP (INCLUDING THE HONEST DEVS) from the actions of few Biased devs. We should SUPPORT the unbiased devs, and fight against corruption! DOWN WITH CORRUPT DEVS! Edit: The Good Part of CCP added the news of the death of BoB's titan idiot.
Dionisius Gallente Vindictive Behavior THE H0RDE	Posted - 2007.06.25 08:06:00 - [209] Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. thats a different image :p Man i¦m going to use this bit of your post as my sig. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. thats a
trada ash	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:16:00 - [210] Originally by: Sharupak They probably got their info from mmorpg.com which is full of misinfo about games from people that play the trial and then whine. that is a great summary hehe.

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:24:00 - [211] Anyone so lacking in grey matter that they base their opinions of, well, anything soley on what other people say about one particular aspect of said thing would not survive Eve anyway. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Krexus Amarr Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.25 09:47:00 - [212] maybe i should not do this but what the hell. to all the whiners, flamer, trollers and the lost souls not knowing what they are talking about. I challenge you all to make a game that is as great as Eve Online is. Then and only then ,when you have achieved that, can one make a valid opinion of this whole icident. Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:08:00 - [213] Originally by: Krexus maybe i should not do this but what the hell. to all the whiners, flamer, trollers and the lost souls not knowing what they are talking about. I challenge you all to make a game that is as great as Eve Online is. Then and only then ,when you have achieved that, can one make a valid opinion of this whole icident. So you've made such a game? Whats the address? Otherwise, you are a hypocrite (and dont have a valid opinion) ======================================== "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
Darth Moo	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:09:00 - [214] Originally by: fightnkill Edited by: fightnkill on 25/06/2007 07:17:00 One of my worries when playing Eve is that the creators; Some members of CCP are still Biased towards one group of Players (BOB). Yeah, I know that there are few unbiased Devs that''s trying their best and honestly not trying to smear their Company's reputation. Cheers to them Even thou CCP is trying to assure us that there arn't any biased mods in their company, It is impossible for them to determine what goes in the minds of their employees. So there is a high probability that there are some biased mods still. The events following the death of "Darwin's Contraption" may be an evidence since whenever BoB kills a Titan, Many members of CCP tries to glorify BoB's achievement. However on the other hand, when the enemies of BoB makes any sort of major achievement, they don't do anything. On the otherhand, Some of the update from Tuesday indicates that there are Fair mods in the play as well. For example, the Nerfing of DD. They make Eve a better place for everyone, while Biased mods ruin the game for huge portion of Eve while favoring the tiny portion. So my point is, even thou there are some bad fruits in CCP, there are good fruits as well. We shouldn't really generalize Entire CCP (INCLUDING THE HONEST DEVS) from the actions of few Biased devs. We should SUPPORT the unbiased devs, and fight against corruption! DOWN WITH CORRUPT DEVS! Edit: The Good Part of CCP added the news of the death of BoB's titan I agree as well moo! If its not an exploit then its fair game
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:18:00 - [215] EVE was a better game when the max you'd see on the server was 10 - 15k. If you really need to hump the dead horse that is the whole 't20 incident' and complain about CCP favoritism, just quit the game and do a favor for the rest of us so that the servers work properly again.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:47:00 - [216] Originally by: Kirell As many people know Asherons Call was a great game, first of it's kind with a new feel and a new way of doing nearly everything. It had a strong community, and a good subscribership at it's peak having to open a new server every few months to deal with the load. Alas after so much tim ein the Sun, Asherons Call perished (I'm sure AC2 bombing helped it as well) Except for a few loyal followers AC fell into the past. EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. Now the reason why I say it is doomed.... Today I tried (as many days before) to convince a few friends to try EVE online, to give it a shot with the free 14 day trial. Figured why not show others what a great game this is. Their response to this query of mine, " EVE online has been corrupted by it's own developers, We had read on the internet that the people who run EVE were cheating in thier own game" Now, I was surprised to hear this from them since they have never played EVE, and I have never talked to them about the game. But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community. Now no matter what BoB accomplishes, even if they eventually control all of 0.0 space, or 90% of it or whatever they will have this hang over thier heads, and never truly be able to have thier accomplishment respected by players in game ( at least those that oppose BoB) But this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I also see alot of forums where people are quitting eve due to "Lack of trust in CCP" And while EVE still remains a great game, with alot of great things to come, I believe that in the not so distant future it will be joining Asherons Call on that lonely road, I am sure there will be the regular followers, the fanboi's of CCP trying to keep it alive, but with MMO's multiplying faster than rabbits people will move elsewhere quickly. Maybe you don't feel that way, which is good in some ways, or maybe you don't care.... it's no matter this is just my thoughts on EVE onlines future sustainability as a competetive MMO in the future to come. And no.... this isn't a BoB thread... Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Discuss, please avoid flaming. all VALID opinions welcome. If CCP were as bias as people claim, then much of RA would be gone for farming trillions of ISK from bugged complexes (some RA even claimed in threads it was legit since the bugs existed for so long). Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:50:00 - [217] Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 21/06/2007 13:58:09 Hi goon! See, its like mad libs, it makes just as much sense! Tomorrow, we can use "Sparta Alliance" or "Kleptomaniacs"! (P.S. Subscription numbers are rising faster than ever, last I heard) omfg, I can't believe I'm gonna reply to a dark shikari post!!!! He is teh Pwnzor!? Ahem.... Dark, if this is true, then why did CCP drop the server load graph they used to have on the site? When I started eve (a week before the 'scandal') numbers were always in the 30k+ range after I got back from work. These days they average out at less than 30K: this is a noticable drop in userbase. I don't believe EVE will fade like asheron, since EVE is a unique game in many rights, but the 'scandal' has hurt CCPs rep and the trust it's clients have in the game as a valid entertainment product. I also firmly believe that the independant committee is nothing more than a pacifier. Eve, however, wont die soon!!! NEVER! p.s. DS -> your sigs rule. I laugh at em every time. I counter your 'drop in userbase' with this: http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility Why, I do believe I see a new PCU record yesterday... Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.25 18:06:00 - [218] People read game forums. People complain on the game forums. Company responds to complaints and change the game. People get the impression that if they complain enough, they can run the company. You can suggest things all you want, but at the end of the day CCP is going to do what they decide to do. Being stubborn about whatever topic isn't going to suddenly change that. At some point you have to either let it go and have faith in CCP or decide you don't like the direction they are taking and go your seperate way. There is a point where flogging the hell out of a topic just results in nothing but negative no matter how well intended you feel about it. I think we're well past that point. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Krexus Amarr Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.25 18:08:00 - [219] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: Krexus maybe i should not do this but what the hell. to all the whiners, flamer, trollers and the lost souls not knowing what they are talking about. I challenge you all to make a game that is as great as Eve Online is. Then and only then ,when you have achieved that, can one make a valid opinion of this whole icident. So you've made such a game? Whats the address? Otherwise, you are a hypocrite (and dont have a valid opinion) Hypocrite.... ok let's see. correct me if i'm wrong tho here goes ( EXAMPLE )stuff I said Then and only then ,when you have achieved that, can one make a valid opinion of this whole icident. However ccp should never have done this and bla bla bla bla ( /EXAMPLE ) Now afaik, that is hypocritism ..... I did not see a flame, troll or whine in my previous post about what has happend. kthnxbye Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
Mrsticks Minmatar RNCGM Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.25 18:16:00 - [220] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Kirell Just my thoughts on why EVE is doomed, purely the fault of CCP due to lack of proper boundries for thier own employees involvement in the game. CCP should have taken greater measures to prevent thier employees from being too heavily involved in the player alliances. Most people in a position of power like that in a competative environment will be vastly tempted to tip the scale in thier favor. Depending on the severity it's grounds for instant termination of their contract/job. What boundaries do you expect? Execution? Execution...Yes thats it... Would you cheat if the Death penalty was in place Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.

Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.25 21:25:00 - [221] Originally by: Krexus Hypocrite.... ok let's see. correct me if i'm wrong tho here goes ( EXAMPLE )stuff I said Then and only then ,when you have achieved that, can one make a valid opinion of this whole icident. However ccp should never have done this and bla bla bla bla ( /EXAMPLE ) Now afaik, that is hypocritism ..... I did not see a flame, troll or whine in my previous post about what has happend. kthnxbye Ok try that again in English that makes sense kthnxbye Oh and just so you know.. Hypocrite... Main Entry: hyp+o+crite Pronunciation: 'hi-p&-"krit Function: noun Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritEs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai 1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings IF you state that only ppl who have made a game like EVE have valid opinions and you yourself HAVENT done this, YOU sir, are a hypocrite. AND you are invalidating your own opinion.... which I think is REALLY funny. ======================================== "The environment plays a big part but EVE is a "PvP" game." Oveur (Its not a MMORPG after all - I sent Oveur a email to update the main page)
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.25 22:00:00 - [222] Originally by: EnglishBob I have opposed BoB in the past and no doubt will again in the future and I fully respect BoB for both their achievements and skill in game. I'm also man enough to take defeat without whining about cheating and victory without hitting the forums like billy big-*******s. Many others in this game play the same way. More people should try it, Bitterness rarely helps. QFT. Nice one.
max bygraves	Posted - 2007.06.25 22:16:00 - [223] Originally by: Crumplecorn Anyone so lacking in grey matter that they base their opinions of, well, anything soley on what other people say about one particular aspect of said thing would not survive Eve anyway. Too true, Its just sad u/f that your friends belive everything they read.,
acompton Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.26 21:24:00 - [224] Ignoratio Elenchi The fact that Asheron's Call is essentially/near defunct has little or nothing to do with the rest of your arguement. Did they have problems (real and/or percieved) with developer interference and some bad publicity that resulted at Asherons Call?
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.26 21:31:00 - [225] Originally by: Kirell EVE online and AC have alot in common. Small subscriber base of loyal fans, sort of a niche in the market holding the interest of a certain group and of course constantly trying to attract more. That's a pretty weak comparison, really. There are probably hundreds of games like that. Originally by: Kirell But the Incidents concerning the developers helping alliances in game (namely BoB) have reached far more than just the EVE community...this whole issue has damaged CCP's role in EVE to the point where they have cost themselves possibly a large number of new subscribers. I guess goons win Eve by destroying its future. Let's all go DoS-attack somethingawful! (nah.) Originally by: Kirell I also take into account that not so long ago, peak periods of EVE had reached well over 30,000 and now, these last couple of weeks I check peak times and I see it dropping at steady rate. I logged in today at 2PM eastern on a Tuesday afternoon to a 29K server. I don't really see evidence of a reduced playerbase...
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.06.26 23:15:00 - [226] Everyone is ALWAYS whining that the server population in declining... WHERE?? I can see Coldfront too but the only decline you see is during the week when everyobne's at school/work. Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true


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