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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
812
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Posted - 2012.01.21 14:52:00 -
[181] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:sYnc Vir wrote: No one in FW wants Empire + pve,
wait sry.. NO one ACTIVE wants that.
99% want fun. Null sec is not that, if it was we would be thier.
I remember having many, many conversations in militia back when Incursions came out about a CCP quote saying how they want to see where they could apply the new things they developed for it and FW seemed like an obvious choice. The overwhelming majority thought a scaled down version for FW would be a great addition. So yeah, maybe those who are inactive need something better to fight over than a permanent wardec to stay active.
I can speak on this topic - since I remember those conversations.
First off, I'm hoping you're not taking from our discussions about Incursions that militia pilots want more PvE content... The attractive thing about the Incursion feature that had potential for Faction Warfare were two-fold:
First, the system wide effects and the push / pull red / blue bar could potentially be used to represent the opposing faction's influence on a given territory. These system-wide effects could potentially add some incentive to fight frequently for system occupancy - increasing the number of PvP fights to be found throughout the region on a daily basis.
The other appealing element to Incursion that could relate to Faction Warfare is the scaled rewards - the fact that LP payouts could by applied to current FW plexes, with rewards scaled to participation numbers. This would encourage a "sweet spot" for plex running, and discourage large blobs, since excessive fleet size would reduce rewards. The end result would be economic incentive to running plexes often and in small groups - increasing the number of PvP fights to be found throughout the region on a daily basis.
Both of these possible integrations of Incursion mechanics into Faction Warfare bring with them a whole host of other balancing problems, as will no doubt be pointed out here shortly just because I've brought them up again. I hope you can see the real underlying principle though - no matter what we each propose as a fix to Faction Warfare, the goal has always been the same: creating a haven for small fleet, easy to find, frequent PvP.
Your average FW wants just enough added or altered to the feature to dramatically increase the amount of regular fights that occur, without adding PvE that could turn it into cash cow, and without adding so much consequence to system ownership that it becomes a mirror of nullsec in the process.
I continue to maintain that we are unified as a community as to what we all want out of Faction Warfare - even if we disagree with the best way to fix it. |
Dirk Smacker
Black Talon Aerospace Black Watch.
14
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Posted - 2012.01.21 15:56:00 -
[182] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I can speak on this topic - since I remember those conversations.
Well, the covos I'm referring to we in-game with corpies and in militia general. It was never anything specific or thought out, just the vague idea if an enemy npc fleet invading a target system, concentrating the action. A lot of people thought something like that would be very cool.
First off, I'm hoping you're not taking from our discussions about Incursions that militia pilots want more PvE content..
Very aware that those who choose FW as their PvP of choice do not want PvE content. To afford PvP, most either grind FW L4 missions every so often or have an indy alt op setup in hi sec, WH, etc...
"First, the system wide effects and the push / pull red / blue bar could potentially be used to represent the opposing faction's influence on a given territory. These system-wide effects could potentially add some incentive to fight frequently for system occupancy - increasing the number of PvP fights to be found throughout the region on a daily basis."
As a DaoC and WAR vet, it amazes me EVE doesn't have a system like that.
"The other appealing element to Incursion that could relate to Faction Warfare is the scaled rewards - the fact that LP payouts could by applied to current FW plexes, with rewards scaled to participation numbers. This would encourage a "sweet spot" for plex running, and discourage large blobs, since excessive fleet size would reduce rewards. The end result would be economic incentive to running plexes often and in small groups - increasing the number of PvP fights to be found throughout the region on a daily basis."
Personally, I would like to see some of the militia LP store items (especially the ships) have both LP and VP in thieir prices. Caldari militia is famous for the number of disengaged mission runners and they would have to do some plexing to keep up their racket. You would see a lot more plexing, and thus more targets. Granted, that could lead to blowing up alts for VP's, but it could be prevented with tweaking the VP rewards for kills.
"- no matter what we each propose as a fix to Faction Warfare, the goal has always been the same: creating a haven for small fleet, easy to find, frequent PvP.
Your average FW wants just enough added or altered to the feature to dramatically increase the amount of regular fights that occur, without adding PvE that could turn it into cash cow, and without adding so much consequence to system ownership that it becomes a mirror of nullsec in the process."
Agreed, but FW was also designed to be a good place to get your feet wet in PvP. Right now, only the Gallente seem to have numerous decent-sized corps actively recruiting newer pilots. I did some searching both in-game and out of game and was a bit saddened by the lack of avenues for newer pilots to get in FW corps.
That could just be a numbers thing where a higher population will take care of it. Also, the reasons some of the older corps are more exclusive are perfectly justified. However, there needs to be a constant influx where most new pilots enjoy their militia experience and one or two out of ten become regulars.
"I continue to maintain that we are unified as a community as to what we all want out of Faction Warfare - even if we disagree with the best way to fix it."
Yup Currently trying to hoar myself to the sexiest militia corp |
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
8
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Posted - 2012.01.21 16:03:00 -
[183] - Quote
Well, I'd like faction warfare to provide a mechanism enabling the overthrow of the Amarr Empire and liberate the enslaved Minmatar rather than pussying around in losec having gentleman's games with the slavers. Bring back the Elder Armada!
However, given that FW is a CONCORD means to contain the conflict I don't hold out too high a hope. So, as a second best, I'm basically on the side of those who want more effect to system occupancy. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
264
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Posted - 2012.01.21 19:19:00 -
[184] - Quote
Kade Jeekin wrote:Well, I'd like faction warfare to provide a mechanism enabling the overthrow of the Amarr Empire and liberate the enslaved Minmatar rather than pussying around in losec having gentleman's games with the slavers. Bring back the Elder Armada!
However, given that FW is a CONCORD means to contain the conflict I don't hold out too high a hope. So, as a second best, I'm basically on the side of those who want more effect to system occupancy. So on the same side as everyone else ..
We all want consequences but are fighting over what direction to go .. as Hans said, we are pretty united on what we want just not on how we want it.
Some of us have been asking CCP to restart the RP element since they killed it by firing/reassigning all the people who dabbled. FW kicked off with a RP bang and it had all but disappeared six months later .. such a shame as the potential is enormous given the nature of FW
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Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
26
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Posted - 2012.01.21 22:39:00 -
[185] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Cal Gin wrote:I feel like them saying stuff like "Use FW to test sov mechanics for null" is like the rich pharmaceutical companies saying "we will just test are drugs on the poor cause they don't mean ****" Actually, with the way they were referring to planets in the CSM notes, I think they will be testing DUST sov mechanics in FW. :)
THIS |
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
26
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Posted - 2012.01.21 22:46:00 -
[186] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Think about situation where Ankh will be selected as militia leader Think about situation where mittani is elected militia leader...................
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2012.01.21 22:46:00 -
[187] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote: Very aware that those who choose FW as their PvP of choice do not want PvE content. To afford PvP, most either grind FW L4 missions every so often or have an indy alt op setup in hi sec, WH, etc...
Is this not one of the main issues?
Are faction warfare missions part of the problem? Many of us need PVE content to fund PVP (yes I admit to being rubbish at EVE); we need PVE content to enable us to run other PVE content (Plexes) that may lead to PVP.
Also due to work, family etc, I have to fit EVE into half hour, hour long blocks if no PVP is likely then I need something else to do, If there were no NPC's in plexes then I cannot afford to spend periods orbiting timers for no real gain. Perhaps Cerains broadcast system would make it more likely a fight would develop but even this is dependent on activity and time zone.
If there was a way to absorb the objective based style of missions and level of rewards into the plexing then this would perhaps be better for me. Thing is this would need to be balanced carefully as I really want to run this content in PVP fits and in effect want to switch the NPCGÇÖs off where PVP opportunities develop.
Not saying I have an answer, I just feel there needs to a balance between PVE and PVP content that some of us more casual players can pick up and can ideally switch between the two. Maybe this is the Holy Grail of EVE and just not achievable.
Hirana Yoshida wrote: Some of us have been asking CCP to restart the RP element since they killed it by firing/reassigning all the people who dabbled. FW kicked off with a RP bang and it had all but disappeared six months later .. such a shame as the potential is enormous given the nature of FW
If they go ahead with the Leadership idea then I would say this would be needed more than ever, the only way I see to stop itGÇÖs exploitation would be to assign a Dev to Role-play the Faction Governments and prevent a Leadership that is not working in the best interests of the Militia. If anything a Leadership could act as a slightly more organised point of contact for Live events.
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
56
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Posted - 2012.01.22 01:32:00 -
[188] - Quote
No one in here is bitching about PVE in plexes. It's impossible to sustain the amount of ship losses we sustain with tags from NPC rats in plexes. The PVE we don't want is that from FW missions, where faceless alts farm the LP and drive down the price of items we sell in order to finance our PVP, all the while contributing nothing to their militia or FW in general. |
Dirk Smacker
Black Talon Aerospace Black Watch.
15
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Posted - 2012.01.22 14:06:00 -
[189] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:No one in here is bitching about PVE in plexes. You just haven't read enough.
The complaints range from the ability to cap an offensive plex without firing a shot, to the desire to remove all npc's from plexes, to making them more difficult and complex so they are more engaging.
It is encouraging you are actually plexing for the in-game objective. Very, very few have done over the long haul and they can project a disproportionate amount of power over the map. Well, that's if you consider occupancy name changes "power". Currently trying to hoar myself to the sexiest militia corp |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
239
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:01:00 -
[190] - Quote
There have been times where certain people have proposed allot of pve for fw. Rockweiller (sp?) ran for csm with a substantial fw platform with allot of npc interaction.
On the other hand, I think bloodpetal had a thread where the idea was to use mechanics from incursions. But she made it clear that the idea was not to add the npcs/pve. It was just the idea of using a visible slider to tell what systems were hot and how things were changing. It was a decent thread with allot of ideas.
From time to time some people will talk about grandiose npc/pve stuff for fw. But none of these ideas ever get much traction when they are put in the assembly hall.
One thing about missions and nerfing them or requiring them to be done in groups: A FW player's main would be cut off from running level 4s if he is sane. Even in his own high sec he will still likely get killed since the war dec is very large. So FW missions are basically your sole way source of income from pve. The pay should remain decent.
The idea that you have to contribute to the war with pvp or at least vp before you can cash in lp seems a solid suggestion in this regard. Yeah there would need to be some measures to reduce the efficacy of people blowing up their own alts but there were suggestions there. I am not sure there were any sizable drawbacks mentioned to that idea. I have no problem with people who are fighting and participating in the war running fw missions to get more ships. The problem is those alts who do nothing but run missions. This proposal seems to focus on the real problem.
And yes plexxing did in fact fall out of favor because people saw it was mainly pve. What people do *now* is use plexes to find fights. But that is different than if you were actually trying to do plexes in order to capture as many as you can. If we start adding consequences we may get more people doing plexes in order to capture plexes and not necessarilly for fights.
CCP needs to figure out how doing plexes as efficiently as possible would *require* that you do pvp yet not make it so blob wins. Not easy but they need to keep striving for that. IMO that goal should take priority over adding consequences. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
239
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:30:00 -
[191] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The community has consistently sent this message, loud and clear, the only thing you see debated on is exactly how to tweak those mechanics. But saying that the militias are split between those who want nullsec, or those who want Empire PvE, doesnt even begin to describe why were here and why we've engaged in a "dead" feature year after year after year.
Just curious here, what could they add or change that wouldn't resemble a nul sec or PvE feature? The only thing I could think of would be battlefield complexes that appear in the warzone every so often. Only warp-in is to a friendly npc fleet that requests a specific ship size. Have objectives to fight over (like a series of starbases) that give out vp as a reward and cap the amount you can get per day to prevent exploit farming. I
We want a pvp feature that leads to frequent quality small scale pvp fights.
Null sec with its long timers allow everyone to blob up and fight. Very little can be accomplished in a short time in a small gang. And that makes sense for null sec where people can lose everything. They should have time to form up large fleets to defend and attack.
But for fw, the stakes aren't so big so we can have small gang pvp make a small but significant differences. CCP should take advantage of these differences not try to make them the same.
Null sec alliances can decide if they want to be at peace or at war. We are always at war. We can't choose to blue up all our neighbors. This should mean we are constantly called to pvp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
689
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:41:00 -
[192] - Quote
If they really must have player-led militias, then the leadership should be selected by FW performance, not according to who can bribe the most people to vote for them.
But ideally the leadership should be provided by event actors. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
57
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:54:00 -
[193] - Quote
A large part of the people who wouldn't plex would not do so because the game was rigged in favor of whoever had a numerical advantage just after down time. I remember because I was one of the ones trying to help the plex effort a year or two ago. The NPCs in plexes are tolerable, and though they can be a pain in the ass, it was just something you had to plan around.
The proof is in the pudding, and now that plex respawns have been changed plexing in the Gallente-Caldari warzone is at an all time high. You'll see people on the intel channels, who once actively discouraged people from plexing, coming to help and chasing squids out. After all, while it would give a lot more incentive for more to participate, lots of people will turn up to shoot a bunker if it goes vulnerable. People care but for so long the deck was stacked against them because all their work could be undone in the hour or two after down time.
As for FW missions, they really don't contribute anything to FW. FW is supposed to be a place that facilitates and encourages PVP, but FW missions do neither of those things. Rewards should be tied to plexing and killing enemy militia ships, not running around in your stealth bomber shooting NPCs and farming LP so you can undercut the market for people who actually need the isk to support staggering ship losses. |
PlatinumMercSEAL
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
2
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Posted - 2012.01.22 18:56:00 -
[194] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:PlatinumMercSEAL wrote:I like the idea. I think it would revamp everything in a good way. This might bring more people from high sec to militia. We have a lot of people dreaming of null security space, including myself. This set up would target that group and bring them into the militia. This would turn up the heat. I see more espionage and power hunger. I sure hope this gets in to place soon. I, being a owner of a militia corporation, along with other militia corporation owners, directors, CEOs, and Vice CEOs should like this. This will boost the corporations size and bring in more revenue as a corporation. What CEO would not like that is not out of their mind? Good ideas CCP. Please put them into actions. trolololol? http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=PlatinumMercSEALGood for you about being optimistic, but you are not quite of the same community as the rest of us. GO to 0.0, tell us how it was, maybe you will love their game down there.
Please keep my killboard out of it please. I am just giving my own opinion. I seriuosly like the idea. No need to dish on me for it. President of the Screaming War Eagle Association
Doing business is my game. |
PlatinumMercSEAL
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
2
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Posted - 2012.01.22 18:58:00 -
[195] - Quote
Cearain wrote:PlatinumMercSEAL wrote:I like the idea. I think it would revamp everything in a good way. This might bring more people from high sec to militia. We have a lot of people dreaming of null security space, including myself. This set up would target that group and bring them into the militia..... Ok ignore the trolls. If you want to go to null sec go to null sec. This is a game where you are immortal. There is no reason to delay pursuing your dreams. Thinking that fw is a good stepping stone to null sec is very wrong. The large alliances are much more new player friendly than fw. They will tell you how to fit your ships and exactly what to do. You do not need to be good at pvp to do the large fleet blob warfare they do. Just know the alphabet so you can follow along as the primaries are called. Even if you don't know the alphabet you can click on "name" in your overview and just start shooting the top one. On the other hand if you pvp in fw your skills or lack of them will be much more important. If on the other hand you dream of learning and getting good at small scale pvp, then join fw. But don't join faction war thinking you are in anyway getting closer to your null sec dreams.
Nothing wrong with me agreeing with the ideas. Trolls or no trolls, I still like to express my ideas. Thanks for your respect. President of the Screaming War Eagle Association
Doing business is my game. |
PlatinumMercSEAL
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
2
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Posted - 2012.01.22 19:00:00 -
[196] - Quote
Cearain wrote:PlatinumMercSEAL wrote:I like the idea. I think it would revamp everything in a good way. This might bring more people from high sec to militia. We have a lot of people dreaming of null security space, including myself. This set up would target that group and bring them into the militia..... Ok ignore the trolls. If you want to go to null sec go to null sec. This is a game where you are immortal. There is no reason to delay pursuing your dreams. Thinking that fw is a good stepping stone to null sec is very wrong. The large alliances are much more new player friendly than fw. They will tell you how to fit your ships and exactly what to do. You do not need to be good at pvp to do the large fleet blob warfare they do. Just know the alphabet so you can follow along as the primaries are called. Even if you don't know the alphabet you can click on "name" in your overview and just start shooting the top one. On the other hand if you pvp in fw your skills or lack of them will be much more important. If on the other hand you dream of learning and getting good at small scale pvp, then join fw. But don't join faction war thinking you are in anyway getting closer to your null sec dreams.
My way of thinking. I like it, and that is final. President of the Screaming War Eagle Association
Doing business is my game. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
239
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 22:25:00 -
[197] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:A large part of the people who wouldn't plex would not do so because the game was rigged in favor of whoever had a numerical advantage just after down time. I remember because I was one of the ones trying to help the plex effort a year or two ago. The NPCs in plexes are tolerable, and though they can be a pain in the ass, it was just something you had to plan around.
The proof is in the pudding, and now that plex respawns have been changed plexing in the Gallente-Caldari warzone is at an all time high. ..
I agree the after downtime mechanic was a large barrier to plexxing that was overcome. There were other problems like the cloaking bug and horribly imbalanced npcs. Fixing these obvious problems however, didn't "fix plexing." It still needs some work.
IMO plexxing still needs adjusting before being great at occupancy plexxing will have any *merit*. I know very well how I could capture allot of plexes and it only involves running pve ships. That is what I would do if I really wanted to win at plexxing.
The problem is not that you can never get fights in plexes. You can. In fact plexes are one of the best ways to get pvp fights - if you want them. The problem is plexes can still be easilly run in droves without any pvp. As long as the occupancy war can be fought without any pvp it will be scoffed at, not only by eve players in general, but even by the fw community.
I agree that the rats are easy to plan around. Just fly the right ships and fittings and you will likely be able to run all (or close to all) the plexes in a frigate sized ship. Warp out if an enemy player happens somehow to stumble on you, and you will be able to plex like a champ.
Plexing at an all time high now? Well there may be more plexxes captured now because they are spawning like never before. But I tend to doubt as many people are dedicated to plexing as there were when FW first came out. But I don't have the data so you may be right. If you are then great. Let's see what happens if people really start to care about it like they did when fw first came out.
I predict that if the mechanic is not changed then winning occupancy will have almost *nothing* to do with who has the better pvpers. Most occupancy plexes will continue to be captured without any pvp at all.
The winning side will just be the side that has more people willing to spend longer hours grinding away. If they start to pay rewards for plexing then people will just farm it like any other form of pve. If people are happy with that then fine, but I think it could be allot better.
As far as missions and rewards I remember one of the devs was talking on a warpdrive active (may have been drone bay) podcast when fw was about to come out. They asked him what rewards people got for winning occupancy and there was sort of an awkward silence.
It seemed clear from what he said that he thought occupancy was the ultimate point of fw. You would get isk from missions so you could buy ships and go fight in plexes. It was not thought that you would win the occupancy war so you would get isk. (that was backward thinking) Sure lots of people see their isk wallet as the ultimate determiner of success in eve. That was pretty clearly not the crowd fw was aimed at.
Personally I like that. I want to get isk so that I can throw it in the war effort to gain occupancy. I want to feel my militia and I have accomplished something significant if we make gains in occupancy. The plexing mechanic is improving but it's not there yet. Its still just allot of grinding and not worthy of my time. Even if there are more people doing plexing than ever before the vast majority of eve players and even fw players (85% accordign to the last poll) still would agree with my last sentiment. Plexs are just tools to get a fight. Plexxing on its own has very little merit.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
110
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Posted - 2012.01.23 00:02:00 -
[198] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:A large part of the people who wouldn't plex would not do so because the game was rigged in favor of whoever had a numerical advantage just after down time. I remember because I was one of the ones trying to help the plex effort a year or two ago. The NPCs in plexes are tolerable, and though they can be a pain in the ass, it was just something you had to plan around.
The proof is in the pudding, and now that plex respawns have been changed plexing in the Gallente-Caldari warzone is at an all time high. You'll see people on the intel channels, who once actively discouraged people from plexing, coming to help and chasing squids out. After all, while it would give a lot more incentive for more to participate, lots of people will turn up to shoot a bunker if it goes vulnerable. People care but for so long the deck was stacked against them because all their work could be undone in the hour or two after down time. lol, even words from one of the main Gallente Fleet FCs isn't good enough for some...
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Novinya
Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.01.23 01:50:00 -
[199] - Quote
Wow. Out of all the ideas I can think of to improve low sec "Involve alliances in FW" and "introduce sov" are the two worst ones imaginable.
I'm in low sec because I test alliance drama and idiocy and I can't stand the sov system. |
Silence iKillYouu
The Innocent Criminals
137
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:36:00 -
[200] - Quote
Cearain ur shitposting again http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
239
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Posted - 2012.01.23 11:10:00 -
[201] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:A large part of the people who wouldn't plex would not do so because the game was rigged in favor of whoever had a numerical advantage just after down time. I remember because I was one of the ones trying to help the plex effort a year or two ago. The NPCs in plexes are tolerable, and though they can be a pain in the ass, it was just something you had to plan around.
The proof is in the pudding, and now that plex respawns have been changed plexing in the Gallente-Caldari warzone is at an all time high. You'll see people on the intel channels, who once actively discouraged people from plexing, coming to help and chasing squids out. After all, while it would give a lot more incentive for more to participate, lots of people will turn up to shoot a bunker if it goes vulnerable. People care but for so long the deck was stacked against them because all their work could be undone in the hour or two after down time. lol, even words from one of the main Gallente Fleet FCs isn't good enough for some...
X Gallentius
I take it you think plexing is now fixed, and that all ccp needs to do is heap consequences on it.
Not everyone agrees.
If you want to keep shitting up the thread with your crying everytime someone posts an opinion different than yours, I can't stop you.
But your argument that Julius Foederatus is "one of the main Gallente FCs" therefore no reasonable person should ever disagree with anything he says, is pretty sad. I think you would realize that, if you thought for a second before posting.
Second why are you trying to polarize people?
I agreed he made some valid points. We both agree ccp made good changes to plexing. I just say ccp should do a bit more. Are you sure he disagrees with that?
He can post his own views he doesn't need you to paint his views for him.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
826
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Posted - 2012.01.23 12:21:00 -
[202] - Quote
Cearain wrote: If you want to keep shitting up the thread with your crying everytime someone posts an opinion different than yours, I can't stop you.
But your argument that Julius Foederatus is "one of the main Gallente FCs" therefore no reasonable person should ever disagree with anything he says, is pretty sad. I think you would realize that, if you thought for a second before posting.
Second why are you trying to polarize people?
Cearain - c'mon man, please please please endeavor to keep FW threads respectful in nature. We're trying to gain credibility for our cause, not be seen as a bunch of squabbling soldiers that can't get along.
We have to keep a level head or we are destined for irrelevancy.
The statement Gallentius quoted is absolutely factually correct. There is no need to blow up at him for confirming that.
I am one of those pilots who, because of my timezone, has NEVER been able to participate in plexing - so no one understands the impact of the spawning fix more than me. There are now plexing fleets happening on a daily basis in the Minnie / Amarr warzone, in timezones where they never existed before. Some of the hardcore PvP corps in my TZ that used to scoff at plexing as a gutter activity are now using plexes to find fights once again. I helped seize a system for the first time in my FW career just a few nights ago.
So yes, the "fix" is working as intended. I understand that you do not feel that this ends the debate about FW, or plexes. Obviously it does not, otherwise I'd give up the fight mysellf right now and declare victory.
Your stance on plexing is crystal clear - you do not see NPC's as an asset to plexing, you feel they discourage PvP, and should be removed. You also feel that there should be a public alert system to encourage more response fleets when a plex becomes contested. This fundamental pair of ideas is evident in almost every single post (not even thread mind you) that you have contributed since the FW debate began. All of us who have followed the debate by now, and certainly the developers themselves, have heard this message.
Defending those ideas by any means necessary no longer helps our cause if it means resorting to smack talk, saying that those that disagree are "crying", and refusing to just allow people to have differing ideas.
Once you've supported your stance with evidence, and the person you're talking to still holds a differing opinion, that is the time to move on, because pushing things at that point is a polarizing act itself.
Look, I don't want you to get discouraged, and I don't want you to stop posting. I don't want you to feel like you're not being heard either. But the bottom line is that we all have differing opinions on the details, my set of solutions does not overlap 100% with everyone else's set of solutions, but that doesn't mean that we all have to go for each other's throats.
I know you're a reasonable man, so I'm hoping your post here was just some built-up steam that needed to be vented. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
266
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Posted - 2012.01.23 13:32:00 -
[203] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:...The proof is in the pudding.... Pudding is for old geezers and infants .. since you found the proof, which one are you?!?
Yes, tables have turned and the sides who struggled with mustering critical mass for post-DT are having a field day, but I personally feel that being able to flip any system in a single day regardless of contested status prior to start makes an even greater mockery of the whole thing .. kind of like having ones $1000 designer jeans become available at Wal-Mart (oh noes, the Jeans!!!!!1) .. cheapens the experience somewhat. The good thing is that people who hadn't plexed in their life suddenly find themselves able to get involved and to experience the :awesomesauce: that is the good plex fight .. if only we could get rid of the predictable entry points in plexes, too easy to lock down
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Galatica789
Autocannons Anonymous
14
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:15:00 -
[204] - Quote
Buff Caldari Mitlia somehow! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
239
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:42:00 -
[205] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: If you want to keep shitting up the thread with your crying everytime someone posts an opinion different than yours, I can't stop you.
But your argument that Julius Foederatus is "one of the main Gallente FCs" therefore no reasonable person should ever disagree with anything he says, is pretty sad. I think you would realize that, if you thought for a second before posting.
Second why are you trying to polarize people?
Cearain - c'mon man, please please please endeavor to keep FW threads respectful in nature. We're trying to gain credibility for our cause, not be seen as a bunch of squabbling soldiers that can't get along. We have to keep a level head or we are destined for irrelevancy. The statement Gallentius quoted is absolutely factually correct. There is no need to blow up at him for confirming that. .
Hans
You think Gallentius's crap comment adds to the thread? You think he was respectful? Here is what he posted:
X Gallentius wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:A large part of the people who wouldn't plex would not do so because the game was rigged in favor of whoever had a numerical advantage just after down time. I remember because I was one of the ones trying to help the plex effort a year or two ago. The NPCs in plexes are tolerable, and though they can be a pain in the ass, it was just something you had to plan around.
The proof is in the pudding, and now that plex respawns have been changed plexing in the Gallente-Caldari warzone is at an all time high. You'll see people on the intel channels, who once actively discouraged people from plexing, coming to help and chasing squids out. After all, while it would give a lot more incentive for more to participate, lots of people will turn up to shoot a bunker if it goes vulnerable. People care but for so long the deck was stacked against them because all their work could be undone in the hour or two after down time. lol, even words from one of the main Gallente Fleet FCs isn't good enough for some...
His comment is not only illogical it's misleading.
It suggested that I disagreed with what he quoted from Julius Foederatus. If you actrually read my post I specifically agreed with the first paragraph and went further and mentioned other things that ccp did to improve plexing.
So again why is he trying to polarize and suggest that I am in disagreement with everything he quotes? Gallentius has said in the past he thinks plexing is a minor part of fw so I am not sure why he is so bitchy about the topic.
I did say I doubt there is as much focus on plexing within the militia now as there was when fw first came out. But I admitted I don't know for sure. If you do know this is "absolutely factually correct" then ok. I have no I idea how you would know but whatever. Other than that I didn't disagree or take issue with anything Julius said in that quote.
As far as your comments about the specific proposal I am advocating, I am not going to discuss that here. I think its a good idea but I think we all agree we can leave this thread to just try and get CCP focused in the right general direction.
IMO that general direction should be continuing to improve the occupancy plex mechanics. I don't think they are fixed at this point. You seem to agree.
Alliances in or out? I don't really care. Npcs in high sec? I coudln't really care less. Scrapping the plexing mechanics in favor of some sort of null sec sov system? Yeah I care. That is horrible. Other parts of the minutes? Well they are too vague to comment on.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
110
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:52:00 -
[206] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:...The proof is in the pudding.... Pudding is for old geezers and infants .. since you found the proof, which one are you?!? Yes, tables have turned and the sides who struggled with mustering critical mass for post-DT are having a field day, but I personally feel that being able to flip any system in a single day regardless of contested status prior to start makes an even greater mockery of the whole thing .. kind of like having ones $1000 designer jeans become available at Wal-Mart (oh noes, the Jeans!!!!!1) .. cheapens the experience somewhat. The good thing is that people who hadn't plexed in their life suddenly find themselves able to get involved and to experience the :awesomesauce: that is the good plex fight .. if only we could get rid of the predictable entry points in plexes, too easy to lock down 1. The current map today reflects the reality of power in the FW regions much more than in ever has. The Gallente hold the Caldari areas they are strongest in - the ones near where they live. Same with the Amarr.
2. You can only flip a system in one day if the opposition is weaker than you during all TZs. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that. If the other side cannot defend, then you shouldn't have to take a month to flip a system, nor should you be shut out of capturing a system by afk, after-DT plexing alts. So, out of curiosity, how long should it take to flip a system against zero opposition?
So, what we have all agreed upon, EXCEPT ONE POSTER, is that plex fights are awesome, and that the number of players running plexes has increased 10-fold. Pretty much every active member in my corporation, and the majority of active pilots in my TZ for that matter, has run plexes (sometimes to flip a system in a reasonable amount of time, or most times to kill stuff) since the patch and has enjoyed the experience.
The proof is in the pudding. |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2012.01.23 15:16:00 -
[207] - Quote
Cearain wrote: IMO plexxing still needs adjusting before being great at occupancy plexxing will have any *merit*. I know very well how I could capture allot of plexes and it only involves running pve ships. That is what I would do if I really wanted to win at plexxing.
The problem is not that you can never get fights in plexes. You can. In fact plexes are one of the best ways to get pvp fights - if you want them. The problem is plexes can still be easilly run in droves without any pvp. As long as the occupancy war can be fought without any pvp it will be scoffed at, not only by eve players in general, but even by the fw community.
I agree that the rats are easy to plan around. Just fly the right ships and fittings and you will likely be able to run all (or close to all) the plexes in a frigate sized ship. Warp out if an enemy player happens somehow to stumble on you, and you will be able to plex like a champ.
Plexing at an all time high now? Well there may be more plexxes captured now because they are spawning like never before. But I tend to doubt as many people are dedicated to plexing as there were when FW first came out. But I don't have the data so you may be right. If you are then great. Let's see what happens if people really start to care about it like they did when fw first came out.
At least in the Caldari-Gallente theater plexing has picked up significantly to levels I haven't seen over the past 2 years. Also it's no longer a novelty that is only picked up to a few dedicated groups, and often consists of a small fleet 3-10 individuals that are running primarily in PvP fitted ships. Generally, the current runners are less concerned about the efficiency of running sites but rather the prospects of PvP.
I don't agree that, "the problem is plexes can still be easilly run in droves without any pvp", but rather there isn't enough of an incentive behind the system capture mechanic. The opportunity for PvP is already there, the mechanic is fairly solid, and if there's a reward that justifies the risk players will flock to it like stink on ****. Also, I like the fact that plexes/system capture are initiated by the playerbase and I think that mechanic should be kept. Now.... if only these captures could initiate some kind of warfront - perhaps some form of PvE light incursion - that could be interesting.
ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
266
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:16:00 -
[208] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:..So, out of curiosity, how long should it take to flip a system against zero opposition? .. As far as I am concerned, having been part of the post-DT crews for two+ years; approx. three days with no opposition.
That is one perma-spawning plex instead of the current three.
Has the benefit of keeping people moving to maximize plexing efforts instead of doing two systems and docking up/camping random gate or station for 30 minutes waiting for respawns. Should increase likelihood of butting heads with enemy gangs as they hunt for you and plexes.
Either way, the whole thing is a colossal waste of time as long as there are no repercussions for shedding system .. how many of us have heard "let them flip it, its easier to get back afterwards" .. the system offers one of the best PvP theatres in Eve but at the same same discourages PvP over the built-in objectives, very odd design if you ask me
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
131
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:40:00 -
[209] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Either way, the whole thing is a colossal waste of time as long as there are no repercussions for shedding system ..
You cannot put any incentives to the mechanism. And you know this is because people are lazy. When one side ends up on top, people on losing side will flock there and make sure one side ceases (yes, even more so than current sad sack of s..t which is Caldari militia).
Are there many examples of badly beaten up 0.0 entity gritting their teeth and soldiering on despite losing their isk making opportunities? Not really (not saying they arent there). Same applies for FW. If situation was reversed on our current war, Frogs would just be shouting "plexing sucks" instead of being their usual smugs boasting about their pvp prowess when outnumbering enemy 1:3, with neutral logistics and command ship links at their back. |
Ispai Ponue
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:53:00 -
[210] - Quote
chatgris wrote: A main in FW, two alts in the opposing militia. This isn't just conjecture that alts will show up, I already run into the situation where I start harrassing a caldari mission runner and then his gallente main messages me to let him run the missions...
This is just plain lame. I would have blown him up and then put him on my contact list for permanent hauntage. I sure hope you ignored this ass-hat's bleating. |
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