Little things GÇô Factional Warfare, Wormholes
Present: CCP Soundwave
Factional Warfare

CCP has begun some concept work on how they want FW to evolve in the medium- to long-term. Some iterations to FW may be possible as soon as summer 2012. They would like to merge the FW and 0.0 sov system capture mechanics somewhat, but are not happy with either of the current mechanics.

CCP would like to inject some of the drama that surrounds the CSM election system into FW, by having some sort of in-game election of militia leaders/admirals. This would help move some of the 0.0 style politics/revenge/spying into FW. Another important addition to this system would be some real power/consequences for system ownership, such as the elected leaders being able to set things like tax rates in lowsec stations that they control (and having some of this tax ISK flow to the faction). The leadership would be able to set strategic goals as well as adjust settings for the new FW benefits.

Some of the CSM members expressed some concern that FW issues would greatly impact pirate organizations that live in the area, and wanted to make sure that non-FW entities would be able to neutralize FW control in some way (by blowing stuff up, preferably). CCP agreed to take that into account when designing the system, but that the important thing was to make FW meaningful and fun.

CCP mentioned that letting alliances join FW was supposed to be a Crucible feature, but was not completed in time. It will be released in the very near future, so that groups that want to participate in FW don't need to break up their existing social structures in order to join. Some CSM members noted that this, in addition to the election mechanics, would allow nullsec entities to co-opt FW groups.

On the question of where FW revenues would go, CCP suggested that they would be able to be used for system upgrades; an example was to increase LP payouts or something similar.

The CSM suggested that one of the major issues with lowsec was the large increase in risk with a much smaller increase in rewards. It was suggested that allowing FW upgrades to decrease risk, such as making probes less effective in a system, would help draw people into lowsec. This brought up a side conversation about how the current probing mechanics has negatively impacted tactics like sniping, which is an issue CCP is aware of. CCP suggested that in the long term, they would like to see the possibility of FW folks taking over nearby high and nullsec systems, and turning them into FW-controlled systems. Some CSMs suggested that FW could be used as a testbed for new capture mechanics, since FW would be smaller scale than nullsec.

The CSM presented a list of smaller issues that were raised by the FW community. CCP promised to look at the list, but pointed out that issues that had to do with Crimewatch (the system that manages aggression timers, security status hits, criminal flags and other lowsec mechanics) were unlikely to be addressed without the Crimewatch rewrite that CCP is planning.

(Reference to 'Crimewatch' points to the introductory chapter in the minutes which says this....)

The first planned step in this direction (and remember, plans CAN change) is to take a look at War, i.e. what is it about conflict that needs to be iterated on so that all groups of players can enjoy it more? How can we further encourage conflict? Obviously the term GÇÿconflictGÇÖ is a very broad term, but it does encompasses 0.0, factional warfare, low sec, high sec, official war declarations, etc. The technical debt behind those systems is substantial and looking at those systems has become a priority. One particular example of this is the system called GÇÿCrime watchGÇÖ (an 8 year old system with countless patches and band aids) GÇô the mechanism that handles all aggressions, who is flagged to whom, what timers are running on what characters, etc. Who isnGÇÖt familiar with the question of GÇÿcan I shoot this can thief?GÇÖ, GÇÿcan I shoot the logi pilot repping that hostile?GÇÖ or GÇÿif I fly to this station will the sentry guns shoot at me?GÇÖ Thinking about it, players shouldnGÇÖt have to ask those questions, the information should be readily (and easily) available to them.

CCP would like to inject some of the drama that surrounds the CSM election system into FW, by having some
sort of in-game election of militia leaders/admirals

CCP would like to inject some of the drama that surrounds the CSM election system into FW, by having some sort of in-game election of militia leaders/admirals. This would help move some of the 0.0 style politics/revenge/spying into FW. Another important addition to this system would be some real power/consequences for system ownership, such as the elected leaders being able to set things like tax rates in lowsec stations that they control (and having some of this tax ISK flow to the faction). The leadership would be able to set strategic goals as well as adjust settings for the new FW benefits.

Just what FW needs.. EMO raging arm chair generals, structures to shoot and MOAR carebear! It will be awesome..

Why can't we have hats?

Bringing high level organization to FW can only be a good thing.

You are either not serious, or not getting it.

The entirety of plexing mechanics has promise for variety of ship types to be used instead of just battleships, logi, and caps as the order of the day. All we needed was a meaningful reason to fight over plexes. Lower skilled pilots could have an impact on the "war" by fighting in minor plexes forcing the enemy to ship down in order to capture the complex. You had all sorts of fights, frig/dessie brawls, cruiser skirmishes, and BC engagements in majors, and then the eventual cluster **** where everyone flies as big as they want for the bunker bust. CCP should understand that having all shiptypes meaningful is really important to the playstle most of us enjoy in faction war. Players have the option of hoping in a frig and brawling cheaply, or flying bigger ships too. I enjoy the variety. All ship sizes are relevent.

Didn't a few frigs/dessies just recently cap a minor plex making a system no longer vulnerable while a minmatar blob was busting a bunker, buying time for the amarr to rally a counter fleet? I think the current system has a LOT of potential for something dynamic. You could have fights in multiple sized plexes as well as the bunker simutaneously. This excites me. Having one big fleet shooting a structure is kind of boring. I hope they don't completely scrap what's in place. It just needs improving, not removing.

The entirety of plexing mechanics has promise for variety of ship types to be used instead of just battleships, logi, and caps as the order of the day. All we needed was a meaningful reason to fight over plexes. Lower skilled pilots could have an impact on the "war" by fighting in minor plexes forcing the enemy to ship down in order to capture the complex. You had all sorts of fights, frig/dessie brawls, cruiser skirmishes, and BC engagements in majors, and then the eventual cluster **** where everyone flies as big as they want for the bunker bust. CCP should understand that having all shiptypes meaningful is really important to the playstle most of us enjoy in faction war. Players have the option of hoping in a frig and brawling cheaply, or flying bigger ships too. I enjoy the variety. All ship sizes are relevent.

Didn't a few frigs/dessies just recently cap a minor plex making a system no longer vulnerable while a minmatar blob was busting a bunker, buying time for the amarr to rally a counter fleet? I think the current system has a LOT of potential for something dynamic. You could have fights in multiple sized plexes as well as the bunker simutaneously. This excites me. Having one big fleet shooting a structure is kind of boring. I hope they don't completely scrap what's in place. It just needs improving, not removing.

If i were CCP I would give new meaning to the victory point system. As militia corps/militia alliances kill the enemy and capture/defend systems/plexes (earning VP) they then could use their earned victory points to "bid" for stations on a corp/alliance level (note that you have to be in militia to do this) to control whatever benefits/upgrades from having occupancy would be purchased. Of course there would be upkeep on having control, not just having isk to throw at maintaining a station, but also having to continue fighting for their faction and earning VP having to spend it to keep the factions favor in order to keep the station under their control. It'd be like fighting for your lord and them rewarding you with a little bit of real estate. Something like this would implement safegaurds that those participating in faction war reap the benefits, not some entitiy with enough numbers to make mass alts to vote in a mock leader to steal isk (or at least would force outside entities to really work at it). Also this would allow for corps/alliances that participate in FW to choose where they want to base, they could all base in one system like how heyd/enaluri used to be. But there would be incentives to spread out (especially if the warzone is expanded by making all of lowsec FW) to get their own slice of the pie by bidding for stations that are not in the "main systems".

Some CSMs suggested that FW could be used as a testbed for new capture mechanics, since FW would be smaller scale than nullsec.

I hope CCP realizes a lot of us joined FW to avoid/escape null sec stupidity...but then again this is CCP we're talking about.

The parentheticals demonstrate the rule GÇô the CSM can wield a frightening level of influence if someone of sound mind and a knack for political manipulation is in charge. The experience of the previous CSM demonstrated to everyone in nullsec the galaxy-destroying risk of locking random ignoramuses in a conference room with CCP Greyscale.

So: we are approaching Election Season once more. Last year we GÇô along with other like-minded members of nullsec GÇô swept the election and helped remake EVE into a spaceship game. There will be many more votes this time around, as CSM6 raised the stakes for the entire game. I will once again be running for the Chairmanship, and we will be fully mobilizing to ensure that the voice of ~the people~ (ie, our people, and everyone of like mind to us) is heard. This will be a high-stakes election, not merely because of the power we have created within the CSM, but because after blowing up thousands of miserable Empire barges, I suspect the pubbies donGÇÖt like us much!

CCP would like to inject some of the drama that surrounds the CSM election system into FW, by having some sort of in-game election of militia leaders/admirals. This would help move some of the 0.0 style politics/revenge/spying into FW.

Fleetwarp sujarento for president

A main in FW, two alts in the opposing militia. This isn't just conjecture that alts will show up, I already run into the situation where I start harrassing a caldari mission runner and then his gallente main messages me to let him run the missions...

WTF is CCP thinking?

He doesn't get it. High level organization brings high level espionage, manipulation, and metagaming. Everybody wants to win, ya know. Which is essentially nullsec; do whatever it takes to bring down your competitor.

lol how it looks Goons want to change fw

Ive been in FW for 3 years or more.
Any change will be good.

At the moment FW is gang green and needs to be cut of or have radical surgery.

All month logging in to empty FW systems and not much happening in channels.

to make it clear ... Goons became new BOB with ability to manipulate CCP via CSM. They see FW as a valuable not yet fully utilized resource of isk and high quality gunmen, they can use. Unfortunately CCP became afraid of their market manipulation attempts (which was just Mittanis political demonstration of weakness) so they allow CSM to take power over some parts of game .

Actually, like it or not one of the consistent whines from many with-in FW here on the forums has always been plexing means nothing as you really gain or lose nothing. There have been countless people asking CCP to make various changes to plexes to cause advantage to one side or other for capturing the system.

This means we can't really just bash CCP on these ideas because many have supported and asked for it , regardless if the rest of us like it or not.

I know I poke fun at them, but it is the truth many have asked for things as excessive as no docking rights for WTs in friendly occupied systems.

Ive been in FW for 3 years or more.
Any change will be good.

At the moment FW is gang green and needs to be cut of or have radical surgery.

All month logging in to empty FW systems and not much happening in channels.

You do understand that FW is already full of espionage, metagaming and all other things associated with "srs spaceship buziness" of 0.0 and only time it has not been such was in the first couple of months of existence.

I feel the same. However, this won't happen.

The plexing mechanic is broken - very few use it/care about it. We need to be more clear about why we don't use it. If we aren't giving any sort of clear guidance we can't be surprised if they land off the mark.

I don't plex because I don't really care for shooting npcs. I don't care about plexing because it is set up such that the most effecient way to do it is in pve ships. Make it a mechanic for frequent, quality, small scale pvp and I will do it.

I feel the same. However, this won't happen.

The plexing mechanic is broken - very few use it/care about it. We need to be more clear about why we don't use it. If we aren't giving any sort of clear guidance we can't be surprised if they land off the mark.

I don't plex because I don't really care for shooting npcs. I don't care about plexing because it is set up such that the most effecient way to do it is in pve ships. Make it a mechanic for frequent, quality, small scale pvp and I will do it.

miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?

Plexing just needs a reward and it will be in pretty good shape for the frequent, quality, small scale pvp you talk about.

Since the changes to plexing spawn mechanics there has been a LOT more plexing (at least in Amarr/Minmatar militia). This has led to a lot of small scale pvp, along with the odd larger scale fight with a few capital ships on each side (i.e. Sisiede a few nights ago). It is good fun to be in FW at the moment.

I never used to plex. Now I do, even without the reward.

Your reasons for not plexing are not that great to be honest.

Not shooting NPCs? They are pretty weak - you do know you can *easily* clear a Minor Plex in a PVP fitted Tech 1 Frigate?
Similar Mediums can be done in Tech 1 PVP fitted cruisers.

All it needs is a reward.

miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?

So, do you all believe me now?

I have been almost alone in my assumption that CCP have no idea what to with FW or even how to do it so will likely end up breaking it completely. ...

A caracal? Never mind the fact that few people want to pvp in a caracal unless you are trying to gank frigates or just whoring kms in a blob.

I'm sure the 10 man Goonswarm gang thought the same when they attacked my navy caracal. Sadly I only killed 5 before rest of them fled and ran to make a /b/ thread about it

In all seriousness, caracal takes any medium plex without issue. If it has full spawn, then it requires some warp outs but it does them. Navy caracal takes any medium easily and can take most gated outposts too (the one with initial spawn of 4 battleships is bit heavy to go, of course you can snipe the rats from range before triggering other waves but it's not very time effective and in same time you could easily go get a drake for it)

I'm sure the 10 man Goonswarm gang thought the same when they attacked my navy caracal. Sadly I only killed 5 before rest of them fled and ran to make a /b/ thread about it

In all seriousness, caracal takes any medium plex without issue. If it has full spawn, then it requires some warp outs but it does them. Navy caracal takes any medium easily and can take most gated outposts too (the one with initial spawn of 4 battleships is bit heavy to go, of course you can snipe the rats from range before triggering other waves but it's not very time effective and in same time you could easily go get a drake for it)

i tought militia are random people that run around with guns and then go home and farm cattle..... Not a normal army....

So electing anything would be pointles. You have ceos of corporations that fight in militia warerafe.... you have individuals... if i have a 5 man fleat and you are solo you are gonna join my 5 man fleat and be quiet....


Seriously who the hell talks at those meetings? Somebodey with a serious OCD i can see... they wanna make a complex thing out of mining veldspar....


FW is fine... Works as intended.... you run around shoot crap... get LPs.... go home.... Now if somebodey wants to be a great military general who wants to build and organize stuff.... you have 2500 0.0 systems and 2500 WHole systems..... have fun there....

Ive been in FW for 3 years or more.
Any change will be good.

At the moment FW is gang green and needs to be cut of or have radical surgery.

All month logging in to empty FW systems and not much happening in channels.

Ive been in FW for 3 years or more.
Any change will be good.

At the moment FW is gang green and needs to be cut of or have radical surgery.

All month logging in to empty FW systems and not much happening in channels.

Make it worth actually holding sov.

Please give the fit of the caracal that tanks the minmatar rats *very very easilly* even when you are in range of the button.

High: 5 x aml
Mid: 2 x regolith LSE, 1 x invul hydrocarbon mwd, long point
low: 2 x bcu
rig: 3 x cde (or 2 x cde and anti-em)

mwd to point, pop the rats while flying and orbit at capture range. Keep orbiting and pop the rats as they come. This works even for harder mediums (= non-outposts) without any issues. Initial spawn in harder mediums might put your shields to relatively low but by the time next spawn comes you have recharged pretty well and they will start at long range anyway and do miserable dps. If you are in no rush to button, you can of course snipe the rats at range but it's not really needed.

Minmatar outposts are not even an issue. Initial spawn is three frigs (one volley pops) and one cruiser. Following spawns composed of mainly the weakest of cruiser hulls available. As for minors, pvp arty thrasher handles any easily enough by one volleying any rat (elite frigate aside in minor strongholds) while sitting on timer and running it down constantly.

Do note that caracal above has 6k more tank than usual shield rupture fits I see around (= lse II, 2 cde, anti-em rig and dc).

High: 5 x aml
Mid: 2 x regolith LSE, 1 x invul hydrocarbon mwd, long point
low: 2 x bcu
rig: 3 x cde (or 2 x cde and anti-em)

mwd to point, pop the rats while flying and orbit at capture range. Keep orbiting and pop the rats as they come. This works even for harder mediums (= non-outposts) without any issues. Initial spawn in harder mediums might put your shields to relatively low but by the time next spawn comes you have recharged pretty well and they will start at long range anyway and do miserable dps. If you are in no rush to button, you can of course snipe the rats at range but it's not really needed.

Minmatar outposts are not even an issue. Initial spawn is three frigs (one volley pops) and one cruiser. Following spawns composed of mainly the weakest of cruiser hulls available. As for minors, pvp arty thrasher handles any easily enough by one volleying any rat (elite frigate aside in minor strongholds) while sitting on timer and running it down constantly.

Do note that caracal above has 6k more tank than usual shield rupture fits I see around (= lse II, 2 cde, anti-em rig and dc).

Maybe the CSM could have a chat with a couple of representatives from each faction to hear their thoughts on FW and what might be good fixes, and then bring those ideas to CCP

And then it would be super if CCP would talk to the FW community (dev blogs/something) before deciding on anything and to get some feedback on whether their ideas are awesome or terrible.

Because it seems to me that simply trusting the CSM/CCP to make up their own version of what is best for FW isn't really a good idea, since neither seem to have full grasp of what we, FW players, want.

this

Do you see that fit on any decent pvp corps killboard other than fw corps? Thats my point you need to fly these oddball fits to accomadate the rats.

So I quess good pilot can compensate for it's lack of hitting power

Well, given how much manipulation that Nullsec CSM intends to do when they hold power again for this upcoming election, I wouldn't be surprised if FW and non-nullsec space is screwed over for good. From Mitten's speech on Branch;




Given the size of GSF now versus last year, it is safe to say that this will be another Nullsec CSM only interested in their own agenda and no one else.

Do you see that fit on any decent pvp corps killboard other than fw corps? Thats my point. You need to fly these oddball fits to accomadate the rats.

Right off the bat you are hamstrung in what you can fly in plexes. People who say the rats have no effect haven't done plexes at least not for amarr militia.

The Assault Caracal (AC) has nothing to do with the rats, you are probably better of using heavies if that is the focus. The AC became 'popular' after faction frigs were buffed, which as you know came after the speed re-balance so we were suddenly seeing tons of ab frigs running around killing anything with traditional cruiser weaponry.
AC has more than enough range and still manage to pull off damage equal to gun cruisers if said cruisers were to field a similar level of tank ..

In short: Don't knock the Assault Caracal!

Right adapt to your surroundings.

If ccp continues to spam npcs in plexes you will need to adapt your fit for pve.

That is my point.

Right adapt to your surroundings.

If ccp continues to spam npcs in plexes you will need to adapt your fit for pve.

That is my point.

miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?

I really dont get this argument, I really dont. I plex and mission in pvp boats (yes, drakes, caracals and gilas are that good. Shocking!) and I rarely, if ever, have trouble in either. Ok, "Halt the invasion" tends to be a bit hefty job for a drake but gila can manage it. I still prefer not to do it since chewing through the bloody gate takes ages

If your doing level 4 amarr missions in a pvp drake you are just better at pve than I am. I can do missions in a drake but its pve fit.


Do you do level 4 fw missions for amarr in a pvp drake? What is the fit if you don't mind my asking.

... .

Yes, it's possible to pve in a pvp ship, send me a mail if you would like to get details on the fit/tactics.

Please let's stop derailing the thread with fitting/missioning discussion and focus on what this thread is about :)

miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?

Are you serious? Who's going to read all that? I got in to about a third and then almost fell asleep, right where you start indirectly bragging about your "knowledge of warfare". Yes, that is snoozefest right there in your post.

And so we're clear, I don't like that new CCP bullshit either. I second the idea, that VPs need some rewards and taking systems needs some meaning. Other than that, I think that the FW mechanics works quite fine as opposed to the horrors that could happen.

EDIT: And there is your second post, where the first sentence is enough. You should seriously think about yourself. This is a game forum, not a lecture hall. And we play a MMORPG game, not some meticulously designed warfare simulator based on someone's delusions of grandeur.

Let me say something to CCP about "War". There is not an original strategic or tactical thinker among CCP. Many of the changes to actual tactics in EVE came from FW. When I joined EVE and asked what a Stealth bomber was good for I was told nothing,by everyone, For over a year before I joined FW. Noone flew them.

We in cal militia faced a particular tactical situation and came up with the idea of using an unused neglected and ignored ship to change the tide of war, and started fielding large SB gangs in FW.We used not only the ships itself, but a set of tactics with it. We were so effective and the gallente cried and wailed so much that CCP tried to nerf SBs and take away the cruise missile weapon so that the gallente could "get at us".They gave us torps instead, and we adapted yet again.This was not a ship that was inherently powerful, or the flavor of the day because of some patch.It was an evolution in actual tactics driven by men who responded creatively by using the available means they had, and tactics to compensate for the shortcomings in the weapons platform itself to go along with it.

Another ship that was laughed at was the Drake. The Drake is now a dominant ship, more for how it is used than for it's specs. The changes that occurred to the Drake was they dropped it's inherent shield resists, lowered it's recharge rate and increased explosion radius and decreased missile explosion velocity. All the while as this ship, which noone flew except missions runners years ago, Cal militia began to form fleets around it, not because of was an inherently strong ship, but it was the only ship that had ANY staying power on the battlefield against guns and lasers and blaster BS. our own caldari BS could not match up against megas and geddons and tempest, maelstroms and hyperions .What we needed was a ship that had some staying power. then at least we could prolong the engagement long enough so that , with additional tactical changes we might be able to effect the outcome. We learned to use the new torp DPS to augment the pitiful DPS of the Drake, We learned to use the unwashed masses in T1 Caldari frigs and cruisers to attack and at least drive off the Gallente fleet support, then killing the gallente BS that were trapped on the field after their support was gone. We would still lose the engagement,in terms of total numbers of ships lost, but learned that we could win the ISK war, in a prolonged war of attrition such as this was.

These events were not flukes. They were planned. They were evolutions in warfare. In 0.0 you see nothing but those who quickly identify the flavor of the day after the next new patch is released and then everyone flies them like so many lemmings.There is no maneuver warfare there. There are no tactical innovations. You are told what to fly, what to bring, and if not you are out in the cold. There is no innovation as there has been in FW, not on a comparable scale.

Not so long ago numbers were released indicating that FW pilots had the largest kill ratios, better than 0.0 pilots. There is a reason for this. Did CCP ever stop and reflect on that? Or why that was the case ?? Because there has been room for growth and independent tactical thought and development in FW.Because we have been handicapped, and forced to adapt, It is second nature to us and part of FW subculture.We think quicker and adapt because we have had to. I am not saying we are a better cut of pilot by nature, but rather that the nature of FW has forced us to be better pilots. Many times we have seen 0,0 corps come into FW, even BoB corps, only to leave after a few weeks or months of getting their asses handed to them by "scrub" FW pilots, complaining they cant cope with no bubbles, or gate mechanics, and unable to effectively mold the ad-hoc pell-mell nature of FW pilots' ships asking to X up into their standards, unable to figure out how to use them, or work with them, and then they leave frustrated, going back to 0.0 grom whence they came.Except not all their members go with them. We in FW have learned that a real FC does what any real life commander does, and that is make an assesment of his available means and then task his personnel accordingly.0.0 pilots largely want to impose their monolithic template of 0.0 combat on FW, and when they cant they pick up their marbles and go home.

In Short, CCPs proposed changes will destroy any semblance EvE has left of a true wargame, and furthermore, they have not learned their lessons of the Jita riots and Incarna patch, and are poised to make the same mistakes. I tell you sirs, I will not continue to play this game if CCP continues to try and force everyone into their playstyle.If we wanted metagames and snoozefest blobs we would be in 0.0.

I cant help but wonder if all of this is not part of an overall strategy for CCP to lay the groundwork that they feel is necessary in game for their next project, DUST, to flourish in.If so, then they truly have not learned the lessons of Jitas Hot summer.....

.....

This thread is about csm minutes that make vague references to fw but really tell us very little other than that CCP fails to realize what needs to be fixed in fw. They are obviously just flailing around.

Directing them to what needs to be fixed is a legitimate topic for this thread.

IMO Occupancy plexing is broken because it is more about pve than pvp. Until they make occupancy plexing about pvp they will *never* fix fw. Theres nothing wrong with discussing/debating that claim in this thread.

BTW: Do you have anything to offer in this thread other than a whine?

OK, suit yourself, go on. I just wanted to be altruistic and point out to you, that you might be doing it wrong. You have a decent points here and there, but you deliver it in such nasty packages, wrapped in too many words and hints of self-imporance. CCP people clearly don't read the forum so much and there you go, you give them condescending lectures pages long. I'm sure they will read that.

Ok I'm not knocking the fit. You can kite other cruisers in it and take out smaller ships. I have no issue with that. I may actually get a few to plex in.

As to whether its an oddball fit. Well we can look at killboards of good non-fw pvp corps and reach our own conclusions whether its odd or common.

But it's one fit.

My point remains that several other more typical types of pvp cruisers(ruptures thoraxs and vexors) are not viable due to rats. Caracal and other missile based ships are going to be king of plexing because they can also pve.

I know damarr has said that plexing is now basically fixed after the downtime spawn mechanic changed. I disagree.

Maybe some others now think its fixed so long as they give more rewards than the tags we already get. I would just ask how much more?

I think they need to do more changes to plexes and not just add more rewards. I think plexing needed fixing before the crucible changes and it still needs some fixing.

yup confirming we are band of cyberrednecks ...

... sometimes we see real null armies rolling over our corn fields and kill our cows ... and sometimes our cows bite their heads off .... bad moos, very bad moos ...

omg ...

[On topic:
The Minutes mentioned something about there being Revenue from holding Sov (or something of the sort) that could be used to purchase system upgrades/LP payout.

An idea: instead of there being some kind of fixed profit going into the wallets of a specific few, why not make it so that you gain more Victory points for killing enemies of the opposing faction and use that as currency for whatever improvements there would be. So if you want more stuff, pvp for it.

I haven't thought over this much, so the idea may be terribly flawed, but it's something.

Now I have argued that the pve works to ruin the chances that plexing brings about small scale pvp. Damar has taken issue with that. He seems to claim that he can do the pve in a normal pvp ship and the rats don't seem to make the pvp less likely.

Until we get some consensus on how fw can be pvp instead of pve we will not be able to offer ccp constuctive feedback on how to fix fw.

You dare and quote me... Just whait till SOPA comes trough so i can sue you

Cearain stop posting like ur a boss.

U are crap u lost ur entire cap fleet to a bs fleet u guys jumped into.
U lost ur home system
U lost ur CEO to Biomass cause u guys fail so hard.

FW will be good with any changes.

... stop talking, start flying, killing, dieing .... once u there start talking again ... silently, few words, some smack .... just my 5 cents.

Cearain stop posting like ur a boss.

U are crap u lost ur entire cap fleet to a bs fleet u guys jumped into.
U lost ur home system
U lost ur CEO to Biomass cause u guys fail so hard.

FW will be good with any changes.

good now FW pilots can't just do what they want and make stupid ammounts of isk. they actually have to defend or gain territory.

Cearain stop posting like ur a boss.

U are crap u lost ur entire cap fleet to a bs fleet u guys jumped into.
U lost ur home system
U lost ur CEO to Biomass cause u guys fail so hard.

FW will be good with any changes.

So... Uh...
Who're you again?


Edit; Mystical for Amarr Admiral.

I think the key here is that a very vocal minority of one says that you can't pvp in plexes with pvp ships even though there are several people in here stating that they can and do pvp in plexes with pvp ships all the time.

Wrong. I never said you can't pvp in plexes with pvp ships. Many of my fights are in them.

I said the npcs in plexes tend to work against pvp. There is an important distinction. The plexes *themselves* can be great tools to bring about pvp. Its the rats and lack of a notification system when plexes are taken that make it so plexing is mainly a pve activity.

So the issue is "do the npcs in plexes tend to increase the pvp in plexes, decrease the pvp in plexes or are they irrelevant?"

I have read these forums long enough to know that my view that the npcs decrease the likeliehood of pvp is not a "minority view."

Since ccp has never done anything about it, many have left plexing because it continues to be a stupid mainly pve mechanic. Just because a few people say yeah you can kill the npcs by using missiles spam and rails doesn't mean they think npcs increase the amount of pvp in plexes.

Here is a quote from June of 2008 from ank:


"As predicted, it took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), for the Amarr Empire in this case.....111 faction warfare complexes were captured in the process, ....
I did not kill anyone in the process, although I have fired on some people to scare them off. Your new Divine Commodore is a moral objectionist."

This sums up why fw plexing is broken. Nothing has really changed that would effect this. There were many more people doing plexing at that time than there are now so if anything it would be even easier to do plexes pve style now.

But is pve style the most efficient way to do plexes? Yes. I know it is.

People say well you can fit rails or use missile spam boats with either larger shield buffers or armor reps. But the point is you are limitted in what you can fit if you are doing offensive plexes. If plexign ever gains in popularity again the people coming in will know this. Plus you will have the rats hitting you. This is why allot of people were turned off by plexes.

Now others have said well then just bring friends. Now this answer is the answer to everything in eve right? Get in a bigger group. Larger groups will lead to more quality pvp fights right? Sorry but your arguing with math. The larger a group gets the less likely you are going to find a similarly powerful group that will give you a good fight. (at least assuming you don't do a prearranged fight) This is just statistical probabilities.

Let me explain how this works in practice based on what I did last night:

Last night I did some plexing for a few hours. I was looking for a pvp fight. Now I was in a pvp buffer tank fit so i couldn't tank the offensive rats without them chewing through my tank. (yeah I know I haven't moved down my armor reppers or missile launchers yet )

Now if I had a pve fit I could have stayed right there and knocked out about 10 plexes no problem. No one would have even known I was there (which is another problem- we need a notification system)

But I was looking for a fight so I went closer to the front lines. I went into vard. I saw about 5-10 enemy militia in local. With several ships on scan. I was in a vexor. So entered a medium defensive plex and started running it. I saw only destroyers and bcs on scan. I ended up closing that one so I went in another medium. Then I started seeing some cruisers.

I have had quite a few good fights with this enemy corp so I was thinking I would get a good fight.

What came in? Rupture thrasher and blackbird. I have sat there being permajammed and died too many times. If they would have just came with the rupture and thrasher it would have been great. I warped out thinking that was overkill.

But was it? I mean if the rats would have done the damage the equivalent of a cruiser then it wouldn't have been overkill. The enemy didn't know how many rats there were. How much damage are these rats going to do? **** if I know.

So there you have it they brought their "group" which perhaps was just intended to compensate for some unknown amount of rat damage and it lead to me thinking they overshipped and warping out.

The most efficient way to do plexing is still to get in a pve ship and avoid pvp just like ank did. Instead of doing 1 plex I could have stayed in back waters and done over 10 plexes in the same time. If for whatever reason CCP does something so people really start to care about plexing again then pve fits and warping out if the enemy comes will still be the way to go again.

Something about doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Nothing has really changed from the time ank did all those plexes back in june 2008. People who think all well now if people start to care about plexing like they did back then it will all of a sudden be all about pvp instead of pve are crazy. Nothing has changed to turn it from pve to pvp.

good now FW pilots can't just do what they want and make stupid ammounts of isk. they actually have to defend or gain territory.

The most efficient way to do plexing is still to get in a pve ship and avoid pvp just like ank did. Instead of doing 1 plex I could have stayed in back waters and done over 10 plexes in the same time.

You do understand that Ankh plexed in cloaking frigate and did not pull any aggro from NPC's thanks to standings and could just cloak up the moment anyone entered the plex. I believe her only kill was a pirate, inside a caldari plex she was taking. Poor b....rd (pirate that is) entered plex and had to cope with full caldari npc spawn (triggered by Ankh) in a major plex in his flimsy phantasm while Ankh only had to slap a long point on him and watch him go boom since full npc spawn in Caldari major plex means t1 frigate can take on pretty much anything and end up on top*

After that she took the plex and of course the npcs did not touch her. This was working as intended according to her and CCP. Of course it was not working as intended after PERVS repeated it on industrial scale in Matar front to show that stupid ***** and rest of Eve what Ankhs vision of FW would be. Or anyones who thinks removing NPCs's from plexes is a good idea.

You can find the whole messy debacle in Star Fraction internal memo on the "website K"

And the standings gain from plexes was reworked quite fast after initial deployment. After that the pace of promotions and standings gained slowed down considerably.

*Like Bad Messengers 60k sp alt in executioner proved by killing an abaddon. And bit later, a zealot in same executioner. I think ECM has been downgraded slightly in the majors now though.

Cearain, stop using that ridiculously outdated quote for Goddess sake, it lost its relevance ages ago.

CCP would like to inject some of the drama that surrounds the CSM election system into FW, by having some sort of in-game election of militia leaders/admirals.

Cearain stop posting like ur a boss.

U are crap u lost ur entire cap fleet to a bs fleet u guys jumped into.
U lost ur home system
U lost ur CEO to Biomass cause u guys fail so hard.

FW will be good with any changes.

.
..
1) Cearain

Stop putting your plexing ideas into this thread. Not many are in support of it and if nothing else this isn't the place to have the discussion, just drop it and for the love of god stop mentioning it in every thread. We can see the link in your sig if we are interested.

.

a) We need to identify a realistic, willing CSM representative ASAP. Not only that, but the people on the forums have got to rally everyone who is going to be affected. All four factions, pirates, newbies, rp'ing alliances (cva, ushra).

I agree with Karl
Regarding "removing" faction war systems. If the population in faction war increases (such as FW getting some development time, thus more player interest, or alliances being able to join), having the same amount of systems as we do (on the caldari/gallente front) currently is a good thing. This isn't red versus blue where the fighting is concentrated in two systems. If you want small gang PvP to continue as a theme for faction war, removing the available area to fight over isn't going to help that.

The vocal minority of one..... .

I'm not going to claim that there is a huge majority in favor of all of the ideas I endorse but the one you claim is a "minority of one" did have 21 votes in its favor. 9 in the current forum thread and 12 in the old.

When you consider how specific it is and that Han's more vague/diplomatic "EVE general" thread op only has 31 supports its a pretty popular idea - as far a fw ideas go.

But yes you, Damarr, super chair, and hirana don't like it. And you 4 can howl and complain everytime it comes up. Thats fine its a free forum. And I still respect you 4 and your opinions.

But if you just continue to complain about every idea that comes up without giving your own ideas of how fw should be fixed, don't be surprised if CCP botches it. Or do you think FW is fixed already?

I can tell you ccp doesn't think so. They are not going to be content with such a dismally small amount of players engaging in what should be a major feature of their mmo. We have pestered them long enough and they are going to do something.

So if you don't like their ideas, you don't like ideas of other players, you may want to start offering some of your own. Because CCP will change fw.

In general, they are paying attention to the items we wanted looked at (except for the most glaring one that EVERYONE agrees on which is NPC rebalancing). The fact that they didn't even mention means that absolutely NONE of the threads we have made about fw have even been considered.

In regards to the bit about pirates being adversely affected by FW changes, CCP should seriously look at shaving a constellation or two from each side of the Caldari-Gallente warzone and maybe one from the Minmatar side of their warzone.

For Caldari, I would take away Ieyama and Urpiken (top corners: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente)

And for Gallente, Serthoulde (Far left) and Beyt (hi/low sec connected to Serthoulde).

The benefits of this would be to lessen the number of systems affected by the changes, allow a bit of a buffer from nul sec, and concentrate the militia PvP in a warzone that is probably far too big as it stands.

omg this!
just thinking about conquering and holding a system 10-15 jumps from the nearest staging area gives me a headache

omg this!
just thinking about conquering and holding a system 10-15 jumps from the nearest staging area gives me a headache

Regarding any FW Nullsec mechanics, for me (and this is the problem with the meeting minutes, it lacks details) it comes down to the details of the mechanic, if a good small gang system occupancy mechanic with consequences for occupancy is developed then I think we would all welcome that, also if that system is then built on and scaled up for Nullsec then does that really matter?

I feel like them saying stuff like "Use FW to test sov mechanics for null" is like the rich pharmaceutical companies saying "we will just test are drugs on the poor cause they don't mean ****"

I recommend that plexing points could be voting points or something like that, so more you do for your militia more you can affect to leadership.

qft. Maybe adjust the plexing points to victory points and tweak the victory points you get for killing opposing militia pilots. Not sure if you get victory points for missions. Would hope not as someone abusing militia as a cash cow and contributing nothing to his cause should have no say either.

Bottom Line:

-No one on CSM caring to contact FW pilots for there opinion (so much for representation)
-No one on CSM from FW representing US.
-No ability for FW pilots to see eye to eye on anything let alone all agree to a candidate or two to toss in their hat to the CSM race and represent ALL FW pilots.

P.S. After trying out plexing. All those that think plexing is boring or 'PVE' etc. Your doing it wrong! plexing got me more fights/kills and losses than anything else i tried in eve ever.

We could always spam the CSM's mailboxes. I've already begun...

Oh and BM is dead on the money here. Rather than politics deciding things let distinguishment on the battlefield be the deciding factor. We're all sick of politics and we all want to blow **** up. Can I get a fckin oath?

talking to my csm, he was like, "i didn't say **** about FW; **** em"

yo, why do you keep laying this on nullsec reps' feet when it was (according to the credits section) hashed out with two step who is a WH dude?

from talking to my csm, he was like, "i didn't say **** about FW; **** em"

You do realize that those credits are referring to who wrote the draft on that particular subject for the summit report, not who was in attendance to each session, right? Otherwise you'd have like 1 CSM per meeting

yo, why do you keep laying this on nullsec reps' feet when it was (according to the credits section) hashed out with two step who is a WH dude?

from talking to my csm, he was like, "i didn't say **** about FW; **** em"

You do realize that those credits are referring to who wrote the draft on that particular subject for the summit report, not who was in attendance to each session, right? Otherwise you'd have like 1 CSM per meeting

So he just watched the trian wreck and stayed in his car........I feel so much better about him being there or bothering to take his role serously. What was his name agean so I never vote for him?

You haven't even identified what you want to see changed in fw other than balancing npcs. Do you think that is what will fix it? You may not realize it but ccp has done some balancing already. I hardly think that is much of an issue.

What we need is to identify what CCP should do and then vote for someone who is indicating they will encourage them to do that.

Your idea of just voting for someone who is "our guy" without even establishing what they should do is what the Null sec lemmings do. Sorry I'm not interested.

FW needs a boost.
Anything will be a step forward

This is the anti-blob mechanism of FW once CCP gives some reward for plexing, the distance. Personally, I like it, it gives a chance for people to spread out, for winning to be something other than who wins the fleet fight.

P.S. After trying out plexing. All those that think plexing is boring or 'PVE' etc. Your doing it wrong! plexing got me more fights/kills and losses than anything else i tried in eve ever.

It is simply obvious that we need direct representation so that WHEN we have their ear (not often) they (soundwave) are actually hearing good advice.

The person i think makes the most sense to rally around is Hans who I think we can all agree has been doing a great job representing the community in the past few months. Of course he is not the only option for a candidate, but it is worth getting people thinking about it now, because we (as a fw forum community) need to start campaigning sooner than later.

I like the idea. I think it would revamp everything in a good way. This might bring more people from high sec to militia. We have a lot of people dreaming of null security space, including myself. This set up would target that group and bring them into the militia. This would turn up the heat. I see more espionage and power hunger. I sure hope this gets in to place soon. I, being a owner of a militia corporation, along with other militia corporation owners, directors, CEOs, and Vice CEOs should like this. This will boost the corporations size and bring in more revenue as a corporation. What CEO would not like that is not out of their mind? Good ideas CCP. Please put them into actions.

To the forum posters who object to the notion of FW being a testbed for 0.0 sov mechanics, itGÇÖs the other way around. Meaningful occupancy mechanics need to be developed for Faction Warfare. And if they work correctly, the same principles should be extended to 0.0. To be clear, the devs (and I) really want Factional Warfare to be meaningful in its own right.

Using faction warfare as a test-bed for nullsec sov? -> Once more, no, implementing FW occupancy correctly and extending that to 0.0. In this instance, FW mechanics are the important bit.

Faction Warfare leaders could be elected, and pvp should play a larger part in FW ranks, as opposed to PvE plexing.

From Meissa Anunthiels on the CSM minutes;
My best analysis is that he wants FW to be meaningful. And like the rest of the CSM, they may understand how FW mechanics needs to be fixed (all you need to do is read forums), but they certainly do not understand the motivation of why people join and stay in FW. There are many reasons and avoiding nullsec drama is one of them.

I like the idea. I think it would revamp everything in a good way. This might bring more people from high sec to militia. We have a lot of people dreaming of null security space, including myself. This set up would target that group and bring them into the militia.....

If one of the main drivers for those who stay in FW is to avoid null sec drama, then drama seems to be winning. Nul sec drama affects the willing participating leaderships the most, and there can be big repercussions for those who live there. From what they have floated, I fail to see what kind of collateral damage militia regulars would face that would even come close to an industrial corp losing alliance sov.

As you stated, there are many reasons to be in FW and I don't see how providing something more meaningful to fight over will hurt the current motivations. You can always opt out of any kind of election or capture mechanic and keep on shooting war targets.

Hans is a good pick and anyway he seems to be the only one willing to do the job. I would endorse him except my endorsement might ruin his chances.

if you (fw guy) voted for anyone i (nullsec guy) voted for, you are r.etarded, lets put it that way.

Let's just say hypothetically that I was to run for office. Why would your endorsement ruin anything? I don't follow...

I said that tongue in cheek, because the gang of 4 were giving me a hard time lately the thread. There isn't any real animosity between the handful of us who have been arguing about fw for years.

if you (fw guy) voted for anyone i (nullsec guy) voted for, you are r.etarded, lets put it that way.

The problem the FW is not the fact that FW is broken .. but the fact that everybody wants something different.

Some people want a 'Nullsec Lite' version of PVP while others want an 'Empire+' version of PVE.

Until we get a bit more unity, all that CCP can do is exactly what they are doing now, putting FW in the ice box until the more important jobs get done.

The problem the FW is not the fact that FW is broken .. but the fact that everybody wants something different.

Some people want a 'Nullsec Lite' version of PVP while others want an 'Empire+' version of PVE.

Until we get a bit more unity, all that CCP can do is exactly what they are doing now, putting FW in the ice box until the more important jobs get done.

What in the world does THAT mean??

It means that I voted for candidates who were pretty much 100% nullsec focused.

so you voted with a bias

why are you in a FW thread?

Galdornae for CSM

[quote=Beta Miner]
The way to fix Faction Warfare is to stick to its orginal intent - providing frequent, hardcore, abundant, and concentrated PvP so pilots can log in, find fights, and have fun without having to grind missions, or wait for a CTA or the lifting of a non-aggression pact.

someone linked it for tear extraction

The community has consistently sent this message, loud and clear, the only thing you see debated on is exactly how to tweak those mechanics. But saying that the militias are split between those who want nullsec, or those who want Empire PvE, doesnt even begin to describe why were here and why we've engaged in a "dead" feature year after year after year.

I remember having many, many conversations in militia back when Incursions came out about a CCP quote saying how they want to see where they could apply the new things they developed for it and FW seemed like an obvious choice. The overwhelming majority thought a scaled down version for FW would be a great addition.

So yeah, maybe those who are inactive need something better to fight over than a permanent wardec to stay active.

Well, I'd like faction warfare to provide a mechanism enabling the overthrow of the Amarr Empire and liberate the enslaved Minmatar rather than pussying around in losec having gentleman's games with the slavers. Bring back the Elder Armada!

However, given that FW is a CONCORD means to contain the conflict I don't hold out too high a hope. So, as a second best, I'm basically on the side of those who want more effect to system occupancy.

Actually, with the way they were referring to planets in the CSM notes, I think they will be testing DUST sov mechanics in FW. :)

Think about situation where Ankh will be selected as militia leader

Very aware that those who choose FW as their PvP of choice do not want PvE content. To afford PvP, most either grind FW L4 missions every so often or have an indy alt op setup in hi sec, WH, etc...

Some of us have been asking CCP to restart the RP element since they killed it by firing/reassigning all the people who dabbled. FW kicked off with a RP bang and it had all but disappeared six months later .. such a shame as the potential is enormous given the nature of FW

No one in here is bitching about PVE in plexes.

Just curious here, what could they add or change that wouldn't resemble a nul sec or PvE feature?

The only thing I could think of would be battlefield complexes that appear in the warzone every so often. Only warp-in is to a friendly npc fleet that requests a specific ship size. Have objectives to fight over (like a series of starbases) that give out vp as a reward and cap the amount you can get per day to prevent exploit farming.

I

trolololol? http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=PlatinumMercSEAL

Good for you about being optimistic, but you are not quite of the same community as the rest of us. GO to 0.0, tell us how it was, maybe you will love their game down there.

Ok ignore the trolls. If you want to go to null sec go to null sec. This is a game where you are immortal. There is no reason to delay pursuing your dreams.

Thinking that fw is a good stepping stone to null sec is very wrong.

The large alliances are much more new player friendly than fw. They will tell you how to fit your ships and exactly what to do. You do not need to be good at pvp to do the large fleet blob warfare they do. Just know the alphabet so you can follow along as the primaries are called. Even if you don't know the alphabet you can click on "name" in your overview and just start shooting the top one.

On the other hand if you pvp in fw your skills or lack of them will be much more important.

If on the other hand you dream of learning and getting good at small scale pvp, then join fw. But don't join faction war thinking you are in anyway getting closer to your null sec dreams.