The problem with all of mecha's argument is that you consider bomber and inty solo. Its not. Can you run two ships on one eve program? No you have to dual box.

Your argument is I am playing two accounts and doing two peoples jobs and counting the money as one character???

No

Two accounts = income split between two ways.

Now if you can solo in a frig (pick one) and by solo I mean ONE SHIP. Then yes we have a problme. However the current method of FW missions align up perfectly with pirate 00 missions.

The reason people come to lowsec to farm missions is because lowsec is generally safer from anyone coming and killing you.

You have to worry about sec status if you kill someone and you are not in FW, and the FW members are to lazy to interupt someone missioning.

You can EASILY stop a mission runner, but it is boring as hell. And that is why we dont do it. When you get into a system and you dscan a ship to see that its a bomber running the mission, who really tries to go kill it? No one. Its too much work to try and catch it. You could prevent it and frusterate the hell out of him but that takes time to.

Just because you dont do the options that would prevent/limit mission running does not mean it is OP.

EDIT

And if you have to solo in an ishtar, there is real risk. The cost of the ship vs the mission is abslutely worth it. I tell you this, if I see an ishtar on dsacn running a mission you bet your ass I am going to try and catch it

Bad messenger - your posts consistently defend the system as being perfectly fine, as you argue with every single person that offers up any idea to change it.

By basically telling all the Faction Warfare pilots to stop complaining about everything, the result is that you sound like someone who is quite happy to farm missions and wants the system to be left alone.

Do you actually think the system could use improvement, and if so, what do you suggest?

The problem with all of mecha's argument is that you consider bomber and inty solo. Its not. Can you run two ships on one eve program? No you have to dual box.

Your argument is I am playing two accounts and doing two peoples jobs and counting the money as one character???

No

Two accounts = income split between two ways.

Now if you can solo in a frig (pick one) and by solo I mean ONE SHIP. Then yes we have a problme. However the current method of FW missions align up perfectly with pirate 00 missions.

The reason people come to lowsec to farm missions is because lowsec is generally safer from anyone coming and killing you.

You have to worry about sec status if you kill someone and you are not in FW, and the FW members are to lazy to interupt someone missioning.

You can EASILY stop a mission runner, but it is boring as hell. And that is why we dont do it. When you get into a system and you dscan a ship to see that its a bomber running the mission, who really tries to go kill it? No one. Its too much work to try and catch it. You could prevent it and frusterate the hell out of him but that takes time to.

Just because you dont do the options that would prevent/limit mission running does not mean it is OP.

EDIT

And if you have to solo in an ishtar, there is real risk. The cost of the ship vs the mission is abslutely worth it. I tell you this, if I see an ishtar on dsacn running a mission you bet your ass I am going to try and catch it

As I said before and I guess I have to say it again. It has nothing to do with Solo and everything to do with risk. There is no risk with the current missions at all if done right.

Im not saying its completely broken and that its destroying the game. Im just trying to come up with simple things that could add to FW and make it more of a PvPers game then a PvEers. Right now I would bet more people use FW for PvE and isk farming then for PvP.

Sounds to me like CCP doesn't like FW the way it is currently and if we don't find something better to fix it it sounds like from the CMS minutes that they are going to change the whole thing and make us 0.0 guinea pig. Maybe they will leave missions the way they are and let us farm them for LP until the T1 faction BS are worth 200 million or they will completely change it. From the sounds of it CCP are looking to completely overhaul the system.

I think one of the problems we have in FW at least when it comes to talking to CCP is that there are 3 different type of people in FW right now. PvPers who just want to shoot ****, PvEers who just want to farm the missions, and people who use missions to pay for PvP.

I don't want Missions nerfted I just want there to be risk and probably even better pay out. Not risk from NPCs as Bad Messenger seemed to think I was saying but from Players. And yes I would love to see you doing missions in BC fleets Bad Messenger at least then we could have a chance for PvP even if as it sounds you think your PvE group would smash our PvP group because you have billions of isk in Titans and Faction ships.

We are not talking about how to complete the mission (bomber and inty) but how to add player interaction to stop a mission runner?

You keep saying add player risk however its avaliable to you. GO kill them or prevent them from doing the mission. LOL

Just because you arent doing it doesnt mean its not avaliable. You are trying to adjust missions to do something that eve is not intended to (computer driven via AI) . This is a sandbox go stop the mission runners.

You may not be able to kill a bomber in a mission but you sure can STOP them from doing it.

And if you cant catch an ishtar running missions then thats your problem. They cant use covert op cloaks....

So my question to you is this then Froz

If players are currently allowed to enter anothers mission, kill them, interupt them, prevent them from doing the mission what more would you like to see? We are not talking about how to complete the mission (bomber and inty) but how to add player interaction to stop a mission runner?

The reason I am busting your chops on this is because you are right we do need to offer good ideas. But IMO your ideas are bad and unessacary (for fw missions only)

The missions are fine, it is not CCPs fault that players do not want to stop other players from farming isk. The ability is there and you can do it.

Heck half the time fw players are surfing the internet anyway while online. Do it while camping the mission gate once you push them out.

If you hinder enough of them you can shut down systems. Why not camp the agents station? All the mechanics that are avalaible for other missions outside FW are avalaiable and the same to FW players. That is my point. You are making suggestions to something that does not need to be tweaked in FW. Go after the plexing purpose first.

In my experience you do not suggest items that need minor tweaking or are fine by the majority of the players you only suggest the areas that need to be fixed less you break something all together. Do not yell for a nerf bat or adjustments to this nature before you fix the real purpose. If you "fix" missions you are only depleting the fw player base even more. Even if they only come to fw for missions, they are still there. So your crusade has yeilded no results.

So let me get this strait you think FW should be all about camping gates, camping stations and camping missions? Sounds boring to me and I don't think very many people in FW would agree that it should be all about camping.

When you have 3 people running missions each taking 6 missions each thats 18 missions they do on one run. You cant stop them from doing a mission you can only delay. They just go to the next one. And chasing 20 million isk ships around for hours on end isn't fun for anyone, I would rather go out and fight pirates which put up more fights then the Caldari at the moment. As for catching an Ishtar its so rare to see some one with the balls to actually run missions in a destructible ship it might as well never happen.

Im just throwing out Ideas because CCP has made it clear they want to wipe the whole system and make it a new. Missions was just one of the many things that need to be looked at and I would rather we as players of FW would work together and present some good ideas to CCP because it seems CCP is going to destroy that which we love if we dont.

I suppose if you just want to sit back and wait to see what CCP does and not offer any good ideas (just attack others) you might just get what you want. Here's to CCP destroying one of the best play grounds in Eve for PvP Cheers Mate.

Translation..

It's much too "hard" to go out of my way to hunt down mission runners because they aren't "easy" to gank. It's much better to sit in 15 to 20 man gangs where help is always 1 jump away to provide easy PVP on a platter. CCP please change game to make care bears easy to gank, because me and my buddies are too lazy to do anything but camp gates and bait for our gangs.

No however FW missions are such a small part of FW that is my point. You are focusing on something where it is an isk making activity only. Name one person that LIKES running missions that is an actual REAL FW pilot....

The problem with all of mecha's argument is that you consider bomber and inty solo. Its not. Can you run two ships on one eve program? No you have to dual box.

Good example about how to refresh plexing was to spawn lot of plexes, no one really proposed that but ccp figured it out them self. I trust that ccp will find lot of better solutions as general than any of you can imagine.

EVE is really complex product , fw missions are really small part of eve economy and i do not see any problem how it affect as whole. Only reason why you complain about is that someone is making isk out of those easily while you beat your own head to wall without reason. There is lot of guides how to farm those effectively but it is up to you if you want to use those methods or not.

How can you spell out the problem in a question and still not get it?

After word of how easy and profitable FW missions are, when farmers arrived en masse, market prices plummeted to the current level which is just a few percent above cost. Result is that what you call real FW pilots are forced to run 2-3 times the number of missions as before to make ends meet.
So you see, they are not as disconnected from FW as you make them out to be as most of the people I know have no real alternative when it comes bulking up .. the atrocity is that we don't like doing them but are forced to spam them to keep up with losses .. thanks to farmers crashing the market.

How can you spell out the problem in a question and still not get it?

After word of how easy and profitable FW missions are, when farmers arrived en masse, market prices plummeted to the current level which is just a few percent above cost. Result is that what you call real FW pilots are forced to run 2-3 times the number of missions as before to make ends meet.
So you see, they are not as disconnected from FW as you make them out to be as most of the people I know have no real alternative when it comes bulking up .. the atrocity is that we don't like doing them but are forced to spam them to keep up with losses .. thanks to farmers crashing the market.

Exactly. FW missions should be a privilege for those that PvP, to pay for ship losses. This is why a very common suggestion is to only allow those with PvP victories or plexing victories to be able to pick up missions.

When a non-PvP missioner joins FW and farms missions with the bomber, he hurts those that are actually using the missions to fund their PvP. They take FW rewards and instead of using them to put more ships out fighting on the front lines, they take that isk elsewhere in the game, and forceably lower prices on the market. It hurts the FW community and happens all the time.

The result is us doing stupid annoying stuff like dual boxing when we used to run them solo, forcing a mad grind to make a decent income to support PvP. It takes away precious time we could be fighting each other, instead of grinding missions because we compete with those that DONT PvP.

Its bad for everyone except those farming the missions and taking the isk elsewhere, and hurts the FW scene. It's easily fixed (turn plexing victory points or PvP kills into vouchers to be exchanged for mission offers) and such a fix would flush out those that are only signed up for the missions.

No one will lament having 1000 less stealth bombers running around the warzone. Those people (the ones taking the isk elsewhere, not the actual FW soldiers) will not be missed, nor will we care if there's that many less targets. No matter what Bad Messenger says, none of us are in FW for the thrill of chasing stealth bombers. That is boring PvP. Time to get rid of it.

Ok so we should also take 0.0 an only let pvpers be there right? I mean who wants a carebear in 0.0

Problem solved LETS MOVE ALL carebears to highsec and leave them there.......*facepalm*

Ok so we should also take 0.0 an only let pvpers be there right? I mean who wants a carebear in 0.0

Problem solved LETS MOVE ALL carebears to highsec and leave them there.......*facepalm*

Dude you're not listening at all. It's not about trying to eliminate PvE in FW. It's about trying to protect an income source that is designed to supplement the constant PvP losses that one occurs over the course of daily fighting for occupancy.

0.0 is the same way. The anomolies and sanctums that exist out there are NOT for general consumption - they are the privilege of those who work to protect them, the nullsec alliances. I'm pretty sure most nullsec alliances that hold soveriegnty believe that you should only be farming sanctums in their space if you are willing to either pay them for rent, or contribute physically in defense of that territory.

This is one of the *few* philosophical issues FW pilots and nullsec pilots agree upon.

I would just like to say I don't think missions ruin FW at all and I have made my billions of isk and will continue to make my isk with FW not a problem. It was but 1 of my 5 points and it was at the bottom for a reason. I think everyone for the past few posts has focused on something that is completely away from the point I am trying to make with my original point. Which was:

CCP has told us via these Minutes that they are looking to completely overhaul the system and possibly destroy it with our own special CMS council so we can have even more drama and in fighting as well as it being more attractive to join just to ruin it. They want to throw out the plexing and replace it with some new Sov system they haven't even talked about yet (how many sov systems have had so far? And how many of them where good?). I also offered a few off handed ideas to try and get the gears rolling. The intent was not to make it a bash on mission runners.

What we need to do is work together not be fighting each other. If we don't have a Focused Dream for FW and impose it on CCP. I think CCP is going to give us a Nightmare.

My personal belief is that FW should be all about the PvP and everything about it should cater to that aspect as much as possible. So some of my ideas are going to be bias and I will admit that. Im willing to put aside bias and try and find good ideas. BolsterBombs right that having Plexing lock down stations would help force fighting and ideas like these should be talked about just as much as some comment I made about missioning.

We need to work together to present some solutions that aren't completely bias. If we can present a more united front and maybe even get a CMS that will speak for us will do much more good and maybe even prevent the nightmare that CCP has proposed.

You know there's more to low sec than FW right? *facepalm*

Exactly. FW missions should be a privilege for those that PvP, to pay for ship losses. This is why a very common suggestion is to only allow those with PvP victories or plexing victories to be able to pick up missions.

When a non-PvP missioner joins FW and farms missions with the bomber, he hurts those that are actually using the missions to fund their PvP. They take FW rewards and instead of using them to put more ships out fighting on the front lines, they take that isk elsewhere in the game, and forceably lower prices on the market. It hurts the FW community and happens all the time.

(more good stuff)

Its protected by the PLAYERS.

That is why your argument is void. You have the ability stop whinning and go cause some tears.

I share this sentiment, but not the solution.

Missions should be removed completely from FW. This is because there is no way to fail your opponents mission (except for one). Therefore, carebears can just come in, pick up 14 missions, and if they get interrupted in one place go away do others and come back later, or just fail the mission. I know, because I've both hunted mission runners and run missions like that for 36 hours straight solo in a gila. Expecting pvp to come from this primarily pve activity is just not going to happen.

What should occur instead is that plexes should give LP for completion. Unlike a mission, if someone comes into your plex they can actually undo the work you've done. This forces the mission runner to pvp to chase them away, or abandon your progress (not resume it later). This also gives the mission hunter some reward for staying and ruining your day.

How plexes should be changed is a completely different story: e.g. notifications if someone is running a plex: this could lead to interesting last stand situations where you try and delay the enemy getting to your plex (distractions along the way etc?). NPC balance etc all are independent of this idea.

Yes, carebears will still come. Nothing will force carebears into your guns, but you can hunt them more effectively, eventually giving them the option of learning to pvp, or moving elsewhere for other rewards leaving the FW specific rewards to those who wish to pvp.

Missions should be removed completely from FW. This is because there is no way to fail your opponents mission (except for one). Therefore, carebears can just come in, pick up 14 missions, and if they get interrupted in one place go away do others and come back later, or just fail the mission. I know, because I've both hunted mission runners and run missions like that for 36 hours straight solo in a gila. Expecting pvp to come from this primarily pve activity is just not going to happen.

What should occur instead is that plexes should give LP for completion. Unlike a mission, if someone comes into your plex they can actually undo the work you've done. This forces the mission runner to pvp to chase them away, or abandon your progress (not resume it later). This also gives the mission hunter some reward for staying and ruining your day.

How plexes should be changed is a completely different story: e.g. notifications if someone is running a plex: this could lead to interesting last stand situations where you try and delay the enemy getting to your plex (distractions along the way etc?). NPC balance etc all are independent of this idea.

Yes, carebears will still come. Nothing will force carebears into your guns, but you can hunt them more effectively, eventually giving them the option of learning to pvp, or moving elsewhere for other rewards leaving the FW specific rewards to those who wish to pvp.