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Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:49:00 - [61] Originally by: Illyria Ambri A ship designed to be light and fast such as intys are 1 thing. Heavy Assult Nano ships are another. Intys go fast.. thats fine.. they are designed to do so. Heavy assult cruisers like the vagabond are not designed for extreme speeds. Why can't they be designed to go fast? Even in real life, big != slow. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:50:00 - [62] Originally by: Illyria Ambri A ship designed to be light and fast such as intys are 1 thing. Heavy Assult Nano ships are another. Intys go fast.. thats fine.. they are designed to do so. Heavy assult cruisers like the vagabond are not designed for extreme speeds. A vaga is designed to be fast, you are either ignorant or a troll.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You do know that when you orbit something.. their transversal is ALOT bigger then yours is. You do know that with the way that Eve calculates transversal, that it doesn't matter who is orbiting who, the radial velocity is exactly the same? You don't help your creditability with missile mechanics when you mess up with other mechanics. Maybe you are not aware of the fact that you can still hit ships that are moving faster than your missiles? ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri A ship designed to be light and fast such as intys are 1 thing. Heavy Assult Nano ships are another. Intys go fast.. thats fine.. they are designed to do so. Heavy assult cruisers like the vagabond are not designed for extreme speeds. Er... Originally by: Item Database The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat. ... Improving on the original Stabber design, Thukker Mix created the Vagabond as a cruiser-sized skirmish vessel equally suited to defending mobile installations and executing lightning strikes at their enemies. Honoring their tradition of building the fastest vessels to ply the spacelanes, they count the Vagabond as one of their crowning achievements. And when you pack it full of nano's its much faster then intended. Nano's being the new standard fitting. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:54:00 - [65] So you claim that missiles should be going faster than ships. They're lighter, therefore should get higher speeds than a bulky ship. So far i even agree with you. But what is it that makes nanoships go so fast? Microwarpdrives. These ships aren't following the laws of physics you're trying to apply with your argument, they're doing extremely short warps that allows them to go at speeds that outrun missiles. Unless you're going to argument fitting a warp drive to a tiny missile, it makes perfect sense (within the world of EVE) that ships should be able to reach those speeds. Second, missile stats need to stay as they are. Balance comes before realism, and if missiles were able to reach those speeds, they wouldn't be balanced in comparison to turrets. If you wanna whine about nanoships being too fast, fine, i won't enter that argument. But making missiles faster is NOT the solution. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:55:00 - [66] Originally by: Illyria Ambri And when you pack it full of nano's its much faster then intended. Nano's being the new standard fitting. How do you know how fast the developers intended for these ships to be? Faster than you would like them to be, certainly, but just because they're too fast to be caught by missiles doesn't mean they weren't intended to be that fast.
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Illyria Ambri There is a difference between arguing rl physics and pointing our a glaring inconsistancy in speed differences. Missiles go less then 4km per second. Ships can fly up to 12km per second This is what we call a glaring inconsistency whether you want to acknowledge it or not.. What inconsistency? Within the design of the game missles are completely consistent. You're simply **ed that you can't hit everything. This is by design. Quote: This has nothing to do with Local.. Where did I say local? Why is it my chat is received 1 ly and 238 ly away at the time? By your original argument all chat is inconsistent and should be removed or at minimum delayed based on distance. Quote:** Just because you don't understand the argument dosen't mean its any less valid. I have yet to see any counter argument from you other then RL is not EvE This is what's known as a straw man argument. You do not address the point I make. You fabricate a position, "You don't understand". Then you use that fabricated position to make a point. You haven't seen any argument other than RL is not EvE because that's the only argument to make. Your original position is a fallacy. EvE is a game. Eve has a set of physics that are unique to Eve. These are called the rules of the game. Any argument must be made within those set of rules. Any comparison to how things work in the real world is meaningless. You're a rock crying because you get beat by paper.
Liisa Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Trishan Originally by: Illyria Ambri Guns.. cannot track something so fast.. completely ineffective vs speed. <SNIPPAGE> Vagabond which weighs in at 10 thousand metric tons and can reach speeds in excess of 6km/s or more(Could a nano vaga pilot verify this speed) A nano vaga pilot? So you saying you cannot track something so fast, yet misteriously the vaga can track you? Without any kind of tracking computers or enhancers? Riiiiiiiiight. Quit the trolling. You do know that when you orbit something.. their transversal is ALOT bigger then yours is. Its much easier to keep guns on a target when you are orbiting it at high speeds then when its orbiting you. When the speed difference is enough that the target ship is essentially standing still such as any battleship. Its easy to target the battleship.. its geometrically more difficult to target the fast moving ship orbiting you. Thats the whole point of orbiting a target.. it makes it hard for them to shoot you but much easier for you to shoot them. I'd use a real world example but noone seems to want to acknowledge that the real world does have some bearings on things. If I may make a suggestion? Take a look at how tracking is calculated in this game and then come back and we'll talk again. You obviously either are ignoring the realities that exist in the game that are there to balance out the very high speeds some ships can achieve or you are ignorant to them. Real life has no place in a game. It is nice to draw upon real life for inspiration once in a while but most games are there to entertain, not simulate life perfectly.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:18:00 - [69] Inties imo should be able to do whatever speed they can get to, it's there role to go fast as a bat out of hell and tackle things. Cruisers, should be able to go fairly fast in niche role, like the vaga, stabber etc coz it's also part of there role to be fast. Also if i recall, there introducing a graviton beam or something that wroks like a target painter and increases the mass of the target sooooooo, it will go slower and you can catch it. just like that \o/
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:20:00 - [70] Originally by: Tamia Clant So you claim that missiles should be going faster than ships. They're lighter, therefore should get higher speeds than a bulky ship. So far i even agree with you. But what is it that makes nanoships go so fast? Microwarpdrives. These ships aren't following the laws of physics you're trying to apply with your argument, they're doing extremely short warps that allows them to go at speeds that outrun missiles. Unless you're going to argument fitting a warp drive to a tiny missile, it makes perfect sense (within the world of EVE) that ships should be able to reach those speeds. Second, missile stats need to stay as they are. Balance comes before realism, and if missiles were able to reach those speeds, they wouldn't be balanced in comparison to turrets. If you wanna whine about nanoships being too fast, fine, i won't enter that argument. But making missiles faster is NOT the solution. Well... technically MWDs didn't come out with the game, but missiles did. MWDs were an add-in, and you just reminded me of that fact. It would be reasonable to make MWD missiles, but since a MWD obviously would take up more space than a standard engine, given the missile size stay the same, the warhead would be less. So make MWD missiles / rockets, but small warheads on them.

Fswd	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:24:00 - [71] Well so far this thread still sounds something like: waaaah i got ganked and i couldnt hit the ship. I am surprised I didnt saw the canihaveyourstuff yet, so, Can I have your stuff? --- Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig Snip Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:27:00 - [72] Originally by: Christari Zuborov So make MWD missiles / rockets, but small warheads on them. Kind of like T2 precisions? As for the graviton beam poster. That's been in the database for a while. We've been through many patches without seeing it.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:28:00 - [73] I have to believe Illyria is just pulling all our legs or I will lose all faith in her 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Alatari Winterdawn	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:28:00 - [74] Originally by: Illyria Ambri To use the dreaded real life example.. MiG-25 Foxbat 2,115 mph. The fastest jet fighter in the world. F-15 Eagle 1,875 mph. Fastest United States jet fighter. VS. Russian Topol SS-27 (the worlds fastest missile) 10,800mph US AIM-54 Phoenix missile In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph) Velocity of the Earth (5.9742 + 10^24 kilograms) = 30 km/s Nerf planets! -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Alatari Originally by: Illyria Ambri To use the dreaded real life example.. MiG-25 Foxbat 2,115 mph. The fastest jet fighter in the world. F-15 Eagle 1,875 mph. Fastest United States jet fighter. VS. Russian Topol SS-27 (the worlds fastest missile) 10,800mph US AIM-54 Phoenix missile In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph) Velocity of the Earth (5.9742 + 10^24 kilograms) = 30 km/s Nerf planets! The sun's weapons don't suffer from tracking though.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:34:00 - [76] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 27/09/2007 15:47:54 Yuppers... When you consider that the same technology would be applied to missiles as ships for thrust, it doesn't make sense that a vessel that contains equipment that a missile doesn't need (life support, a crew, shields, armor plating, faster than light drive, and ammunition) and the missile is slower? Makes no sense at all. The lighter the warhead and supporting electronics, the faster the missile will be if all other things are taken into consideration. This would means that an unguided missile or rocket, with the same thruster, will be faster than a guided missile or rocket. It's completely reversed and fubar'd beyond sci-fi, or sci-real. I find it completely distracting to the point of silliness when I feel I should be impressed with the thought of futuristic technologies. This is a failing point in game immersion, grade - F I concur with this post. IMO the entire stacking-of-mods thing is way out of whack in certain categories. Speed is one of them. The whole nano craze is a goofy play style. Speed is fine. Ridiculous speed is not. Regards, Gorty -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:35:00 - [77] Originally by: Tortun Nahme I have to believe Illyria is just pulling all our legs or I will lose all faith in her "I find your lack of faith disturbing" ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Admiral Annihilation Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 17:48:00 - [78] Edited by: Admiral Annihilation on 27/09/2007 17:51:25 OH NO MY TORPS CANT HIT SOMETHING ORBITING WHAAAAAA WHAAAA check the description of the missiles itself! Bane Torpedo Quote: An ultra-heavy unguided nuclear missile. Slow and dumb but its sheer damage potential is simply staggering. Its a TORPEDO, not a mach 30 super missile with a warhead the size of a walnut. sabretooth light missile Quote: Light assault missile. An advanced missile with a volatile payload of magnetized plasma, the Sabretooth is a multi-purpose missile specifically engineered to take down shield systems. Top speed 3750m/s 3,750m/s = 12,303f/s = = 8,388mph = about mach 13(at 250,000miles alt). My point is, light missiles should and sometimes do hit you with the right skills, and thats a-ok. But don't start whining that your cruise missile and torpedo the size of a school bus cannot catch an interceptor or vagabond.
CallistoWolf	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:14:00 - [79] Even if there was a missile with the ability to catch a speeding interceptor, wouldn't their speed outclass the explosion velocity of the missile anyway? So even if you could hit you it would not do squat.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:16:00 - [80] Originally by: Admiral Annihilation Edited by: Admiral Annihilation on 27/09/2007 17:51:25 OH NO MY TORPS CANT HIT SOMETHING ORBITING WHAAAAAA WHAAAA check the description of the missiles itself! Bane Torpedo Quote: An ultra-heavy unguided nuclear missile. Slow and dumb but its sheer damage potential is simply staggering. Its a TORPEDO, not a mach 30 super missile with a warhead the size of a walnut. sabretooth light missile Quote: Light assault missile. An advanced missile with a volatile payload of magnetized plasma, the Sabretooth is a multi-purpose missile specifically engineered to take down shield systems. Top speed 3750m/s 3,750m/s = 12,303f/s = = 8,388mph = about mach 13(at 250,000miles alt). My point is, light missiles should and sometimes do hit you with the right skills, and thats a-ok. But don't start whining that your cruise missile and torpedo the size of a school bus cannot catch an interceptor or vagabond. Ppl Ppl.. I'm not "complaining" about interceptors.. they go fast.. thats their job.. I'm totally cool with that and do not have a problem with them in any way, nor do I have a problem with the fact that missiles cannot hit them due to their speed. I pointed out before I wasn't referring to Inty's but i guess everyone just glossed over that part. I am also well aware that EVE missiles have a computer targeting system with the IQ of a cabbage.. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master

Script0r Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:27:00 - [81] Edited by: Script0r on 27/09/2007 18:26:52 This forum needs to be nerfed imo.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:29:00 - [82] Didn't read the whole thread, but as far I can see speed mods aren't the problem, slow missiles are. Speed the darn things up and we might see a few more missiles ships in PvP.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:30:00 - [83] Edited by: Thanos Draicon on 27/09/2007 18:30:58 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Quote: My point is, light missiles should and sometimes do hit you with the right skills, and thats a-ok. But don't start whining that your cruise missile and torpedo the size of a school bus cannot catch an interceptor or vagabond. Ppl Ppl.. I'm not "complaining" about interceptors.. they go fast.. thats their job.. I'm totally cool with that and do not have a problem with them in any way, nor do I have a problem with the fact that missiles cannot hit them due to their speed. I pointed out before I wasn't referring to Inty's but i guess everyone just glossed over that part. You were whining about nano-vagabonds, specifically. Which the individual you quoted mentioned. Do you have any logical arguments that haven't been refuted yet?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:34:00 - [84] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Christari Zuborov So make MWD missiles / rockets, but small warheads on them. Kind of like T2 precisions? As for the graviton beam poster. That's been in the database for a while. We've been through many patches without seeing it. I don't remember the precision missiles stats off the top of my head, but if I recall they go the same speed as a light missile - the explosives in the warhead however have a different explosion radius to have a greater effectiveness vs. a smaller ship resolution. Precision missiles ARE the missile to use vs. smaller ships, but ship speeds have gone to the point of outrunning missiles completely, which makes precisions useless. Which brings us back to the first point. All things being equal, mass vs. mass, a missile or rocket should out accelerate a ship and run it down at full velocity. The lightest of missiles should be the fastest thing in the game, even faster than the lightest of ships. Parity, or game balance, obviously would have to be kept in mind, but under no circumstance should a missile at close range not hit a ship - that is in a game where missiles never miss.
omiNATION	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:37:00 - [85] Originally by: Splagada repeat after me h.u...g...g...i...n c.e.r.b.e.r.u.s also : tank... most nano ships do as much dps as my grandma on valium. smartbomb, bye drones. then what oh a fly orbits around me. Your grandmother on valium lands an excellent hit, wrecking for 200 damage
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Zzz	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:39:00 - [86] I have no experience with PvP, but couldn't you warp in a sniping ship at 250km and blow them out of the sky? 12km/s doesn't really make that much difference if you reduce their angular velocity by adding long distances. According to tracking guide, a Rokh with max skills, a few mag stabs and tracking comps with 425 II rails/Thorium charges has a 90% chance to hit at 213km, with 29DPS per turret.
Saladel Grunthor	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Christari Zuborov Your formula's attempt to describe acceleration, not top speed, and their incorrect. BUT If you were to try and compare acceleration, which a missile or rocket should completely pwn a ship in sublight travel, you'd need to be more accurate in your thrust to mass scenario. True, but technically speaking there should be no top speed on any ship in space until it starts getting close to the speed of light. qft He's right... the flaw isn't in that there is a top speed difference the flaw is that there is a top speed. A better system would be a geometric/exponential decrease in acceleration and thrust capability as one gets faster. Also the ability to coast. You know the whole "an object in motion stays in motion until.." law.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:40:00 - [88] Originally by: Splagada repeat after me h.u...g...g...i...n c.e.r.b.e.r.u.s also : tank... most nano ships do as much dps as my grandma on valium. smartbomb, bye drones. then what oh a fly orbits around me. ROFLMAO showing that you have no clue wtf you're talking about. How does a cerberus counter speed? The only thing it offers is a long lock range. If you want to effectively counter speed tanking vagas...take a domi out, throw webber drones in ur drone bay, put the drone spped mods in ur fitting, along with some drone range modifiers, and youve got light drones doing 10-12km/s, along with a drone range of 170km. This tactic shouldbe used only if you dont have a huginn or a rapier in your arsenal. End of story. A cerberus wont do crap against a speed tanked ship.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:45:00 - [89] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Christari Zuborov So make MWD missiles / rockets, but small warheads on them. Kind of like T2 precisions? As for the graviton beam poster. That's been in the database for a while. We've been through many patches without seeing it. I don't remember the precision missiles stats off the top of my head, but if I recall they go the same speed as a light missile - the explosives in the warhead however have a different explosion radius to have a greater effectiveness vs. a smaller ship resolution. Precision missiles ARE the missile to use vs. smaller ships, but ship speeds have gone to the point of outrunning missiles completely, which makes precisions useless. Which brings us back to the first point. All things being equal, mass vs. mass, a missile or rocket should out accelerate a ship and run it down at full velocity. The lightest of missiles should be the fastest thing in the game, even faster than the lightest of ships. Parity, or game balance, obviously would have to be kept in mind, but under no circumstance should a missile at close range not hit a ship - that is in a game where missiles never miss. Cruise missiles, heavy missiles and light missles for 3750 Torps for 1250 T2 appear to vary in speed but nothing goes faster then 3750 ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:48:00 - [90] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon You were whining about nano-vagabonds, specifically. Which the individual you quoted mentioned. Do you have any logical arguments that haven't been refuted yet? The vaga was used as an example of a heavy ship with a massive speed imbalance. Its hard to argue against "Well this is EvE" But why is it imbalanced? Just because it can outrun missiles doesn't make it imbalanced, because in exchange for the ability to outrun and outtrack it's opponents it can't effectively prevent a target from escaping or deal a whole lot of damage to it. Just because your particular setup wasn't capable of defeating it doesn't make it unbalanced in general.



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