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Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:03:00 - [31] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 27/09/2007 16:07:06 Originally by: Boomershoot speed is fine nerf players lol, no really, why would they nerf something like speed? they already made the game unreal giving stargates 10 or more times the mass of a solar system (compare this to RL :\|) no really, how can u compare EVE to RL knowning we have faster-than-light travel, quantum physics paradoxes to communicate with eachother in-game and ammo fired at over 350km/s? (just because over that distance, you are out of a grid) RL Physics =/= EVE Physics All of these points you must believe there's technology in the future to compensate, or advances that are beyond our comprehension - but missile and rockets being slower if they used the same thruster technology is completely ridiculous. If we were to go by this standard, then why have jumpgates, or many of the other technologies represented in game to act sci-fi? There's no excuse for something this brain dead...
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Looks like the OP realized what an epic failure of a thread he created and went into hiding. Actually its called a job and posting from work, troll ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Boomershoot speed is fine nerf players lol, no really, why would they nerf something like speed? they already made the game unreal giving stargates 10 or more times the mass of a solar system (compare this to RL :\|) no really, how can u compare EVE to RL knowning we have faster-than-light travel, quantum physics paradoxes to communicate with eachother in-game and ammo fired at over 350km/s? (just because over that distance, you are out of a grid) RL Physics =/= EVE Physics All of these points you must believe there's technology in the future to compensate, or advances that are beyond our comprehension - but missile and rockets being slower if they used the same thruster technology is completely ridiculous. Ok, let's use this simplified example (with eve physics): Missile thrust / Missile mass = missile speed Ship thrust / ship mass = ship speed If you increase the ship's thrust (overdrives) or decrease it's mass (nanofibers) shouldn't the ship's speed increase? Concrete example: Missile: 1000 units of thrust / 100 units of mass = 10 units of speed Nanoship: 140000 units of thrust / 7000 units of mass = 20 units of speed ZOMG HOW CAN THE SHIP BE FASTER?! THEY HAX PHYSICS!
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Illyria Ambri To use the dreaded real life example.. MiG-25 Foxbat 2,115 mph. The fastest jet fighter in the world. F-15 Eagle 1,875 mph. Fastest United States jet fighter. VS. Russian Topol SS-27 (the worlds fastest missile) 10,800mph US AIM-54 Phoenix missile In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph) I'd like to slap you. Stop with the real life comparisons and nerf nerfs. No Ok have it your way. In real life there is no top spead in space. Therefore all ships should be able to move as fast as they want. See what comes of RL examples? You dont seem to be able to comprehend the inconsistency of having thousands of tons of mass being able to out accelerate and outrun a mechanism that should be designed to catch most anything. How does a company stay in business when its products cannot accomplish what they are designed to do... simple.. they dont stay in business. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:09:00 - [35] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Oh.. so you support the fact that any nano ship can completly neuter the effect of any missile as the missile (which are designed to go faster then the ships they are shot at) goes many times slower then any nano ship. Thank you for expressing your desire for lack of balance. You must fly a nano LOL...that's right man, anyone who disagrees with you is obviously a ~~terrorist~~ nanotard. Keep spouting that, it will aid your argument. Trying to put words in my mouth eh.. good argument... You fail. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:10:00 - [36] Originally by: oDDiTy V2 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Illyria Ambri To use the dreaded real life example.. MiG-25 Foxbat 2,115 mph. The fastest jet fighter in the world. F-15 Eagle 1,875 mph. Fastest United States jet fighter. VS. Russian Topol SS-27 (the worlds fastest missile) 10,800mph US AIM-54 Phoenix missile In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph) I'd like to slap you. Stop with the real life comparisons and nerf nerfs. No Hi, welcome to EVE-Online, a make-believe universe set thousands of years in the future, where your real-life comparisons hold no water due to the fact that are, in the world of EVE, an ancient forgotten technology many millenia outdated. Hi.. welcome to the world where stats and numbers and formula are king... Yet the simple stats on missiles sped compared to ship speed is out of balance.. Thank you come again ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Oh.. so you support the fact that any nano ship can completly neuter the effect of any missile as the missile (which are designed to go faster then the ships they are shot at) goes many times slower then any nano ship. Thank you for expressing your desire for lack of balance. You must fly a nano LOL...that's right man, anyone who disagrees with you is obviously a ~~terrorist~~ nanotard. Keep spouting that, it will aid your argument. Trying to put words in my mouth eh.. good argument... You fail. Because he disagreed with you, you claimed that he was both a nano ship pilot and someone who actively does not want the game to be balanced. Makes perfect sense to me.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Boomershoot speed is fine nerf players lol, no really, why would they nerf something like speed? they already made the game unreal giving stargates 10 or more times the mass of a solar system (compare this to RL :\|) no really, how can u compare EVE to RL knowning we have faster-than-light travel, quantum physics paradoxes to communicate with eachother in-game and ammo fired at over 350km/s? (just because over that distance, you are out of a grid) RL Physics =/= EVE Physics All of these points you must believe there's technology in the future to compensate, or advances that are beyond our comprehension - but missile and rockets being slower if they used the same thruster technology is completely ridiculous. Ok, let's use this simplified example (with eve physics): Missile thrust / Missile mass = missile speed Ship thrust / ship mass = ship speed If you increase the ship's thrust (overdrives) or decrease it's mass (nanofibers) shouldn't the ship's speed increase? Concrete example: Missile: 1000 units of thrust / 100 units of mass = 10 units of speed Nanoship: 140000 units of thrust / 7000 units of mass = 20 units of speed ZOMG HOW CAN THE SHIP BE FASTER?! THEY HAX PHYSICS! Your formula's attempt to describe acceleration, not top speed, and their incorrect. BUT If you were to try and compare acceleration, which a missile or rocket should completely pwn a ship in sublight travel, you'd need to be more accurate in your thrust to mass scenario.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Your formula's attempt to describe acceleration, not top speed, and their incorrect. BUT If you were to try and compare acceleration, which a missile or rocket should completely pwn a ship in sublight travel, you'd need to be more accurate in your thrust to mass scenario. True, but technically speaking there should be no top speed on any ship in space until it starts getting close to the speed of light. But the general argument I'm making is that ships may have additional thrust added or mass removed to increase their top speed, while missiles do not have this option. The additional thrust can compensate for the additional mass.
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You dont seem to be able to comprehend the inconsistency of having thousands of tons of mass being able to out accelerate and outrun a mechanism that should be designed to catch most anything. You don't seem to be able to comprehend that a video game does not follow the logic of real life. A. Weapons do not make sound in space. OMG! NERF audio! B. Shields don't exist. Nerf them. C. Warp gates?! Ha! Nerf. D. In fact, just get rid of the whole game. It's too unrealistic. If I wanted a realistic Eve, I'd be left with GTA. No thanks. Originally by: Illyria Ambri How does a company stay in business when its products cannot accomplish what they are designed to do... simple.. they dont stay in business. Right, because when an enemy is out of range of a sniper rifle, the rifle company goes out of business. Or when body armor stops a bullet, the bullet manufacturer closes it's doors. Are you out of your damn mind? A counter to a product does not mean the product has failed. ---------------

Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Oh.. so you support the fact that any nano ship can completly neuter the effect of any missile as the missile (which are designed to go faster then the ships they are shot at) goes many times slower then any nano ship. Thank you for expressing your desire for lack of balance. You must fly a nano LOL...that's right man, anyone who disagrees with you is obviously a ~~terrorist~~ nanotard. Keep spouting that, it will aid your argument. Trying to put words in my mouth eh.. good argument... You fail. Because he disagreed with you, you claimed that he was both a nano ship pilot and someone who actively does not want the game to be balanced. Makes perfect sense to me. Hey.. it seems to work for everyone crying to nerf remote sensor damps and cloaks.. like I said.. if you cannot beat them.. join them. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Christari Zuborov Your formula's attempt to describe acceleration, not top speed, and their incorrect. BUT If you were to try and compare acceleration, which a missile or rocket should completely pwn a ship in sublight travel, you'd need to be more accurate in your thrust to mass scenario. True, but technically speaking there should be no top speed on any ship in space until it starts getting close to the speed of light. But the general argument I'm making is that ships may have additional thrust added or mass removed to increase their top speed, while missiles do not have this option. The additional thrust can compensate for the additional mass. Exactly... so if we were to say that all entities have a top speed, and all entities have comparable forms of acceleration but different masses (i.e. Intie speed vs. BS) then it stands to argue that missile and rocket speeds are FAR from even being stupidly inaccurate, they've 'gone to plaid' in ignorance...
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:18:00 - [43] Make light missiles travel 7500+ m/s the end.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:19:00 - [44] Edited by: Thanos Draicon on 27/09/2007 16:20:24 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon Because he disagreed with you, you claimed that he was both a nano ship pilot and someone who actively does not want the game to be balanced. Makes perfect sense to me. Hey.. it seems to work for everyone crying to nerf remote sensor damps and cloaks.. like I said.. if you cannot beat them.. join them. It's still an ad hominum attack and does not lend credibility to your argument. Originally by: Christari Zuborov Exactly... so if we were to say that all entities have a top speed, and all entities have comparable forms of acceleration but different masses (i.e. Intie speed vs. BS) then it stands to argue that missile and rocket speeds are FAR from even being stupidly inaccurate, they've 'gone to plaid' in ignorance... It all depends on the numbers though - if a ship's thrust/mass ratio is greater than a missile's, why shouldn't it accelerate faster?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You dont seem to be able to comprehend the inconsistency of having thousands of tons of mass being able to out accelerate and outrun a mechanism that should be designed to catch most anything. There is the flaw in your reasoning. Missiles aren't designed to catch almost anything, they are designed to catch things that are travelling within specific peramiters. Real life physics has NO relation to in game balancing. This is not a space sim. The RP background is just flavor, not fact. If they were going to give you the "realistic" missile speeds that you want, they would nerf your missiles in another way to maintain balance. How would you like to have your missiles miss randomly because the missile miscalculated the ships path due to its high speed. Would that make you feel better? Or can you accept the slower missile speed and keep the missiles ability to predict the future. I for one love how my "unguided" missiles still follow a targets movements. The fact is that the speed of your target affects the damage you can do to it. This has nothing to do with physics, it is simply a game design choice. I don't expect that there is any intention to change that. If your target is moving too fast then slow him down. The tools are there for you to do so. If you choose not to use the right tool for the job, then don't expect the job to be easy. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:20:00 - [46] Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 27/09/2007 16:25:07 Originally by: Illyria Ambri RL examples (fighter, missile ...) Taken from a wiki: Saturn 5, 3.000 tons, 110m high, had a velocity of 8600m/s, when the 1st stage was burnt out and had still a mass of about 1.000 tons at that point right before the 1st stage was cut off. Of course, physical circumstances are not comparable between the two examples, but same with EVE and RL.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:22:00 - [47] Its not the speed mods. They ae already very well nerfed. Its the snake sets and the MWD. Reduce MWD boost to half. Speed setup ships should be faster than others. But speed of EVERYONE must diminish a bit. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:24:00 - [48] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You dont seem to be able to comprehend the inconsistency of having thousands of tons of mass being able to out accelerate and outrun a mechanism that should be designed to catch most anything. straw man cut No I understand it perfectly. What you don't seem to understand is that by arguing for real physics you're arguing for no top speed. That would be the opposite of a nano nerf. At least I understand the absurdity of arguing RL physics in a game. Do you want chat removed too? That's the single most physics breaking aspect of Eve. You've already admitted that you're a raven and sb pilot. You've failed to address the counter arguments with anything more eloquent than "Un Ah". Your whole position can be summed up as follows: I fly rock. Nerf paper.
JeanPaul Sartre 26th of July Movement	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:25:00 - [49] I sense lots of TRI alts posting for nano defense here =O The only way I see to kill a nano gang is to blob them and have several minnie recons and dictors as well as some sniping. Primary Wargod works. -- Quote: If a victory is told in detail, one can no longer distinguish it from a defeat.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Bizz Lizz Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 27/09/2007 16:22:40 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Caldari Navy Cruise missile at 1.25 tons and flys at 3750 m/s or 3.7km/s. Taken from a wiki: Saturn 5, 3.000 tons, 110m high, had a velocity of 8600m/s, when the 1st stage was burnt out and had still a mass of about 1.000 tons at that point right before the 1st stage was cut off. Of course, physical circumstances are not comparable between the two examples, but same with EVE and RL. Just imagine how fast it would be in a near vacuum instead of an atmosphere.

Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Edited by: Thanos Draicon on 27/09/2007 16:20:24 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon Because he disagreed with you, you claimed that he was both a nano ship pilot and someone who actively does not want the game to be balanced. Makes perfect sense to me. Hey.. it seems to work for everyone crying to nerf remote sensor damps and cloaks.. like I said.. if you cannot beat them.. join them. It's still an ad hominum attack and does not lend credibility to your argument. The game stats for speed lack credibility.. so much so they are ludicrous. Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Christari Zuborov Exactly... so if we were to say that all entities have a top speed, and all entities have comparable forms of acceleration but different masses (i.e. Intie speed vs. BS) then it stands to argue that missile and rocket speeds are FAR from even being stupidly inaccurate, they've 'gone to plaid' in ignorance... It all depends on the numbers though - if a ship's thrust/mass ratio is greater than a missile's, why shouldn't it accelerate faster? Thats just it.. a ship with a mass of 10k tons shouldn't have a higher thrust/mass ratio then a 1.25 ton missile designed to run it down and pop it. awaits the "Well this isn't real life retort" ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Well as we all know the nerfbat has a few mods in its sights.. Cloaks Remote Sensor Damps etc... For remote sensor damns proof or STFU. For cloaks, they are only nerfing those who dont use cloak specialized ships. So STFU.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:32:00 - [53] Originally by: Illyria Ambri The game stats for speed lack credibility.. so much so they are ludicrous. It's a game, it doesn't have to be credible. Why does it have to be realistic? Quote: Thats just it.. a ship with a mass of 10k tons shouldn't have a higher thrust/mass ratio then a 1.25 ton missile designed to run it down and pop it. awaits the "Well this isn't real life retort" But if you purchase a small ship designed to be light and fast, and then spent lots of money to weld additional engines to it and remove as much mass from the hull and armor as possible, who's to say it isn't possible? Either way EVE's goal isn't to be realistic, so your argument against the realism is a moot point. If it was I could make all sorts of arguments about how you instantly hit something 250KM away, which would require shells to be traveling faster than any energy source could ever propel them. Just because it's unrealistic doesn't give me the right to demand railguns be nerfed.
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:34:00 - [54] Originally by: 343conspiracy43345 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Well as we all know the nerfbat has a few mods in its sights.. Cloaks Remote Sensor Damps etc... For remote sensor damns proof or STFU. For cloaks, they are only nerfing those who dont use cloak specialized ships. So STFU. During the alliance tourney Ouver stated that damps are going to be switched. It will remain one module that you can configure to do lock time or range. You will not be able to do both. If you don't believe the OP then go watch the film.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Thats just it.. a ship with a mass of 10k tons shouldn't have a higher thrust/mass ratio then a 1.25 ton missile designed to run it down and pop it. awaits the "Well this isn't real life retort" No need for a this isn't real life retort, just repeat the one I provided before. That 1.25 ton missile is NOT designed to run down and pop ships specific configured to out run those missiles. It is designed to run down and pop ships in that class that are configured to opperate at slower speeds. If you use the missiles within their design specs they work as designed. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:37:00 - [56] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Illyria Ambri You dont seem to be able to comprehend the inconsistency of having thousands of tons of mass being able to out accelerate and outrun a mechanism that should be designed to catch most anything. straw man cut No I understand it perfectly. What you don't seem to understand is that by arguing for real physics you're arguing for no top speed. That would be the opposite of a nano nerf. There is a difference between arguing rl physics and pointing our a glaring inconsistancy in speed differences. Missiles go less then 4km per second. Ships can fly up to 12km per second This is what we call a glaring inconsistency whether you want to acknowledge it or not.. Originally by: Tunak At least I understand the absurdity of arguing RL physics in a game. Do you want chat removed too? That's the single most physics breaking aspect of Eve. This has nothing to do with Local.. Originally by: Tunak You've already admitted that you're a raven and sb pilot. You've failed to address the counter arguments with anything more eloquent than "Un Ah". Your whole position can be summed up as follows: I fly rock. Nerf paper. Just because you don't understand the argument dosen't mean its any less valid. I have yet to see any counter argument from you other then RL is not EvE ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Thanos Draicon But if you purchase a small ship designed to be light and fast, and then spent lots of money to weld additional engines to it and remove as much mass from the hull and armor as possible, who's to say it isn't possible? Either way EVE's goal isn't to be realistic, so your argument against the realism is a moot point. If it was I could make all sorts of arguments about how you instantly hit something 250KM away, which would require shells to be traveling faster than any energy source could ever propel them. Just because it's unrealistic doesn't give me the right to demand railguns be nerfed. A ship designed to be light and fast such as intys are 1 thing. Heavy Assult Nano ships are another. Intys go fast.. thats fine.. they are designed to do so. Heavy assult cruisers like the vagabond are not designed for extreme speeds. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Illyria Ambri A ship designed to be light and fast such as intys are 1 thing. Heavy Assult Nano ships are another. Intys go fast.. thats fine.. they are designed to do so. Heavy assult cruisers like the vagabond are not designed for extreme speeds. Er... Originally by: Item Database The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat. ... Improving on the original Stabber design, Thukker Mix created the Vagabond as a cruiser-sized skirmish vessel equally suited to defending mobile installations and executing lightning strikes at their enemies. Honoring their tradition of building the fastest vessels to ply the spacelanes, they count the Vagabond as one of their crowning achievements.
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:47:00 - [59] Originally by: KoolKrewl Originally by: 343conspiracy43345 Originally by: Illyria Ambri Well as we all know the nerfbat has a few mods in its sights.. Cloaks Remote Sensor Damps etc... For remote sensor damns proof or STFU. For cloaks, they are only nerfing those who dont use cloak specialized ships. So STFU. link A thread with no gold bars? That is very convincing. And if someone wants to quote a video that is over 5 minutes long they might need to quote the time it was said. Besides the fact that there are lots of changes that are scheduled but won't be coming any time before santa goes out for spring break, this is a useless rant thread.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:47:00 - [60] Originally by: Trishan Originally by: Illyria Ambri Guns.. cannot track something so fast.. completely ineffective vs speed. <SNIPPAGE> Vagabond which weighs in at 10 thousand metric tons and can reach speeds in excess of 6km/s or more(Could a nano vaga pilot verify this speed) A nano vaga pilot? So you saying you cannot track something so fast, yet misteriously the vaga can track you? Without any kind of tracking computers or enhancers? Riiiiiiiiight. Quit the trolling. You do know that when you orbit something.. their transversal is ALOT bigger then yours is. Its much easier to keep guns on a target when you are orbiting it at high speeds then when its orbiting you. When the speed difference is enough that the target ship is essentially standing still such as any battleship. Its easy to target the battleship.. its geometrically more difficult to target the fast moving ship orbiting you. Thats the whole point of orbiting a target.. it makes it hard for them to shoot you but much easier for you to shoot them. I'd use a real world example but noone seems to want to acknowledge that the real world does have some bearings on things. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master



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