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Saladel Grunthor	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:49:00 - [91] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Illyria Ambri You do know that when you orbit something.. their transversal is ALOT bigger then yours is. You do know that with the way that Eve calculates transversal, that it doesn't matter who is orbiting who, the angular velocity is exactly the same? You don't help your creditability with missile mechanics when you mess up with other mechanics. Maybe you are not aware of the fact that you can still hit ships that are moving faster than your missiles? I can't agree with this. I know that when I'm being orbited at high velocity if I turn the ship in the direction of the orbit I have a greater propensity to hit the orbiting vessel. This actual tactic seems to indicate that the game mechanics work differently then you believe. I would love to see an official dev post or linkage to something from eve to confirm the actual mechanics and not our collective differing beliefs.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:57:00 - [92] Originally by: Saladel Grunthor Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Christari Zuborov Your formula's attempt to describe acceleration, not top speed, and their incorrect. BUT If you were to try and compare acceleration, which a missile or rocket should completely pwn a ship in sublight travel, you'd need to be more accurate in your thrust to mass scenario. True, but technically speaking there should be no top speed on any ship in space until it starts getting close to the speed of light. qft He's right... the flaw isn't in that there is a top speed difference the flaw is that there is a top speed. A better system would be a geometric/exponential decrease in acceleration and thrust capability as one gets faster. Also the ability to coast. You know the whole "an object in motion stays in motion until.." law. Oh I don't deny that... BUT as you approach the speed of light e=mc^2 has mass as one of the variables, requiring more energy to propel the object faster, wherein a missile or rocket would out accelerate and outrun a ship given the difference in mass. So simplified we have a game where ships have a maximum speed somewhere less than 20km/s, but a missile or rocket should be faster as they have less mass - if propulsion systems were the same.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:10:00 - [93] Edited by: Illyria Ambri on 27/09/2007 19:16:04 Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon You were whining about nano-vagabonds, specifically. Which the individual you quoted mentioned. Do you have any logical arguments that haven't been refuted yet? The vaga was used as an example of a heavy ship with a massive speed imbalance. Its hard to argue against "Well this is EvE" But why is it imbalanced? Just because it can outrun missiles doesn't make it imbalanced, because in exchange for the ability to outrun and outtrack it's opponents it can't effectively prevent a target from escaping or deal a whole lot of damage to it. Just because your particular setup wasn't capable of defeating it doesn't make it unbalanced in general. Its a fast ship, yes. But with all the speed mods that EVERYONE and their ^#^%#$^ sister is slapping on, its obvious that the huge speeds that can be acheived by ships still needs balancing. Don't just focus on this 1 single example of a nano ship. I'm sure plenty of people can relate their tales of nano gang encounters that would have turned out differently if speeds wern't as extreme as they can be. I've never been killed by a nano so don't go assuming that I'm complaining cause I got popped by 1. I have yet to loose a ship to a nano gang. But most normal people can see that the missiles are entirely too slow compared to the speeds that can now be achieved by ships nowadays. Now if you can show me a blog or a screenshot showing that CCP slowed missiles down because they were too fast, that would be something else to consider. But as a previous poster pointed out.. MWD's were not in the game when the speed of missiles was set. Its 1 thing (that I do NOT have a problem with) being able to outrun the explosion velocity.. its a completely different issue the fact that missile speeds are so pathetically slow compared to the ships in space nowadays. But we are not talking about missile damage to ships or explosion velocity.. This is all about the raw missile speed when compared to the current ship speeds that is out of whack. Pretty much all you have to do nowadays is slap on 2-3 speed mods and/or a MWD and you become immune to missles and pretty effectively defeat gunners. Nor is this about how much damage the speed tank can or cannot do as that is not the issue. People are crying about remote sensor damps cause even a low SP player can effectivly neuter whomever it gets aimed at and so they cry that there is no effective counter, except,gasp, a speed setup. The same is basicly true for speed setups. Unless you are in a ship setup specificly to counter a speed/nano setup.. i.e another speed/nano setup then you require multiple webbers to get them to a decent speed where they can be shot. The problem is.. everyone is fitting speed setups just as everyone is fitting RSD's. Why? cause its pretty much an "I win" button and everyone knows it. With the advent of the MWD.. we need a skill or mod that actually increases missile speeds to todays lvls. When you have missiles with a max speed of less then 4km/s and ships that can reach over 10km/s.. then that needs to be looked into for balance issues as that makes the speed ship 100% immune to getting hit, baring a serious screwup on the speed tankers part, 3-4 webs, a blob, or incredable luck on the non speed tankers paert. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:21:00 - [94] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Its a fast ship, yes. But with all the speed mods that EVERYONE and their ^#^%#$^ sister is slapping on, its obvious that the huge speeds that can be acheived by ships still needs balancing. Don't just focus on this 1 single example of a nano ship. I'm sure plenty of people can relate their tales of nano gang encounters that would have turned out differently if speeds wern't as extreme as they can be. I've never been killed by a nano so don't go assuming that I'm complaining cause I got popped by 1. I have yet to loose a ship to a nano gang. But most normal people can see that the missiles are entirely too slow compared to the speeds that can now be achieved by ships nowadays. Now if you can show me a blog or a screenshot showing that CCP slowed missiles down because they were too fast, that would be something else to consider. But as a previous poster pointed out.. MWD's were not in the game when the speed of missiles was set. Its 1 thing (that I do NOT have a problem with) being able to outrun the explosion velocity.. its a completely different issue the fact that missile speeds are so pathetically slow compared to the ships in space nowadays. But we are not talking about missile damage to ships or explosion velocity.. This is all about the raw missile speed when compared to the current ship speeds that is out of whack. You mean that missile's are so pathetically slow compared to vagabonds/interceptors - ships designed to travel at extremely fast speeds and with no other measures to mediate damage against them. Missile are not underpowered in regards to speed in general - who regularly encounters battleships that travel much faster than 1.2KM a second? I don't. Quote: Pretty much all you have to do nowadays is slap on 2-3 speed mods and/or a MWD and you become immune to missles and pretty effectively defeat gunners. Nor is this about how much damage the speed tank can or cannot do as that is not the issue. The problem is.. everyone is fitting speed setups just as everyone is fitting RSD's. Why? cause its pretty much an "I win" button and everyone knows it. Well, for everyone knowing it, you don't have very much support for this supposedly obvious issue. You think that it's an issue, but that doesn't give you the right to speak for everyone. Claiming that "everyone knows it!" is just a false projection of your own hopes. Why don't you back up you claims about everyone flying speed setups, because aside from vagabonds and interceptors, i have never encountered a speed setup in combat. Also, the amount of damage speed setups can do is indeed an issue as one's setup is a balance between damage and tanking ability - why is the fact that speed setups do very little damage not to be taken into consideration? The fact is that you're ****ed because your missiles can't hit a vagabond, because you spend a long time training for them. Sorry dude, but live with it. You cannot fly rock, paper, and scissors at the same time.
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Illyria Ambri MWD's were not in the game when the speed of missiles was set. FAIL. MWDs were in the game when they did the missile revamp that added exp size and velocity. Said missile revamp sped missiles up too. Before the revamp they were actually so slow you could smart bomb them.
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:25:00 - [96] Edited by: Drizit on 27/09/2007 19:25:53 Originally by: Illyria Ambri With the advent of the MWD.. we need a skill or mod that actually increases missile speeds to todays lvls. No we don't need a skill. There are enough missile skills as it is. One corpmate has over 1.5 SP in missiles and still only has most of them trained to lvl4. Missiles are very skill intensive as it is. --
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:30:00 - [97] Edited by: Tunak on 27/09/2007 19:31:15 Originally by: Saladel Grunthor I can't agree with this. I know that when I'm being orbited at high velocity if I turn the ship in the direction of the orbit I have a greater propensity to hit the orbiting vessel. This actual tactic seems to indicate that the game mechanics work differently then you believe. I would love to see an official dev post or linkage to something from eve to confirm the actual mechanics and not our collective differing beliefs. You're in a car moving moving at 50 mph. This car is pointed at a wall that is moving at 0 mph. At what speed is the wall moving toward you? At what speed is the car moving toward the wall? The trans of the attacker equals the trans of the defender. What you describe above is manually flying to reduce transversal. So yes it does make it easier to hit things. Edit: Typo
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:33:00 - [98] There is but one universal problem: Excessively Stacked Bonuses One speed mod isn't a problem. In fact reducing the bonuses would make single mods hardly useful. It's always extremes that cause problems. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:42:00 - [99] Originally by: Thanos Draicon etc... Someday you will have to accept the fact that, as I have stated twice now, I'm not talking about the damn interceptors. Until then, I'm not gonna bother with you ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Kodiak31415 An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:43:00 - [100] How about putting down the nerfbat and picking up the boostbat? Here are some random ideas, some ideas may be stupid but at least its not an "OMFG nerf speed tanks" post. Make long range, low effectivness webbers (20km @ 50% speed reduction) Special high tracking/low damage ammor, or highspeed/low damage missles Harder to kill web drones More ships with webbing bonus Web bubbles That weird 'mass adding beam' thingy that someone posted about a while ago (or was that a fake?) Skill that boosts web range _______________________________ Pleese exucse any seplling erorr's in tihs psot

Kailiani Fracked Up beyond All Recognition	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:47:00 - [101] Meh... lightspeed is 669,600,00 mph. At the speeds were talking mass has absolutely no noticable affect at all on top speed, only acceleration. And giving the relatively slow speeds I assume conventional engines are used, which your never going to go faster then twice the exhaust speed. Mass of thrust will affect acceleration.
Dareef Gallente Vitai Lampada	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:06:00 - [102] Maybe missles are slower in EVE due to the fact that they have to pack a liquid oxidiser in order for combustion of the fuel to take place...So..less energy density in the missles? Because of the lack of oxygen in space? Just my 0.0000002 isk --- Sup Internet
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:07:00 - [103] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon etc... Someday you will have to accept the fact that, as I have stated twice now, I'm not talking about the damn interceptors. Until then, I'm not gonna bother with you What ships other than interceptors and vagabonds are you referring to? They are the only ones I've seen you mention.
Alatari Winterdawn	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:13:00 - [104] Originally by: Illyria Ambri I am also well aware that EVE missiles have a computer targeting system with the IQ of a cabbage.. No, that's drones you're thinking of there. -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Achuramale	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:20:00 - [105] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon etc... Someday you will have to accept the fact that, as I have stated twice now, I'm not talking about the damn interceptors. Until then, I'm not gonna bother with you What ships other than interceptors and vagabonds are you referring to? They are the only ones I've seen you mention. Yeah would be interesting to know what you trying to get nerfed. Eg. regular nanohac¦s speed is between 3-4k/s I guess and if you feel that is overpowered I don¦t know what to say. You do realize that cruisers are the second smallest ships in game right ? They are not heavy ships as you keep referring them as. HAC = Heavy Assault Cruiser so it¦s heavy ship in the cruiser class... I hated it when you go get bs¦es easily go over 10k/s that was ridiculous and unbalanced but getting cruisers to go few k per sec ain¦t definetly that. And sure you can get ships to go lot faster than that but then you need faction, the most expensive rigs, implants, etc. and tbh I don¦t really mind if stuff like polycarbs or snake bonuses are altered just keep your hands of the basic t2 **** and rigs like auxiliary thrusters which aint unbalanced. This game needs more ways to fit your ship than just tank or gank and speed is the only other option atm.
Tu Madre	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:31:00 - [106] im pretty sure we would be building jets that could out run any missile in real life... if the pilots could live through the experience. in eve however we have dealt with that little problem. also, missiles dont have any fitting slots or rig mounts - ships do so why the heck would i not be able to fit every sort of speed mod and make my ship faster and lighter? another thing - my cruise missiles go aprox 8.5 km/sec its not the speed of the missiles thats the problem its the explosion velocity. frankly i expected t2 missiles to have a bit more of THAT but anyway i digress... dont nerf anything - k?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:53:00 - [107] Originally by: Achuramale Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Thanos Draicon etc... Someday you will have to accept the fact that, as I have stated twice now, I'm not talking about the damn interceptors. Until then, I'm not gonna bother with you What ships other than interceptors and vagabonds are you referring to? They are the only ones I've seen you mention. Yeah would be interesting to know what you trying to get nerfed. Eg. regular nanohac¦s speed is between 3-4k/s I guess and if you feel that is overpowered I don¦t know what to say. You do realize that cruisers are the second smallest ships in game right ? They are not heavy ships as you keep referring them as. HAC = Heavy Assault Cruiser so it¦s heavy ship in the cruiser class... I hated it when you go get bs¦es easily go over 10k/s that was ridiculous and unbalanced but getting cruisers to go few k per sec ain¦t definetly that. And sure you can get ships to go lot faster than that but then you need faction, the most expensive rigs, implants, etc. and tbh I don¦t really mind if stuff like polycarbs or snake bonuses are altered just keep your hands of the basic t2 **** and rigs like auxiliary thrusters which aint unbalanced. This game needs more ways to fit your ship than just tank or gank and speed is the only other option atm. Cruisers are the 3rd smallest ship in the game, behind interdictors, then interceptors. My thoughts would be 4-5km/s should be the high end at interceptors speed, everything else should be less than that to a varying degree. 4-5km/s puts an interceptor about 10-12x faster than a standard frigate with no speed mods. Greater speeds than that and you have a disparity that just doesn't seem logical... 10-12x faster than it's counterpart, the frigate, is a lot already.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:07:00 - [108] I can't help but notice that the OP has a very expensive faction fitted vaga with polys and snakes and compared it to a cruise missile...without skill or ship modifiers. In reality, a 3750m/s missile will go 37501.5(skill bonus)1.5(ship bonus)1.15(rig bonus)1.15(rig bonus)*1.15(rig bonus)=12800m/s. That fast enough for you?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:25:00 - [109] Originally by: Gamesguy I can't help but notice that the OP has a very expensive faction fitted vaga with polys and snakes and compared it to a cruise missile...without skill or ship modifiers. In reality, a 3750m/s missile will go 37501.5(skill bonus)1.5(ship bonus)1.15(rig bonus)1.15(rig bonus)*1.15(rig bonus)=12800m/s. That fast enough for you? well yeah... I'm not the OP, but I didn't do the math that's actually quite fine as far as I'm concerned.
Wideen Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:39:00 - [110] speaking of reality, could someone pls remove wind when I warp? Originally by: P'uck I know somebody who heard somebody say that an Osprey defeated Chuck Norris. Twice. Need I say more?

framolia The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:47:00 - [111] It is a GAME!!!! Stop comparing things in EVE to fighter jets and stuff. As said in previous threads about the phisics of eve, not everything can comform to real life physics in this game! Get over it
Victor Ivanov Minmatar The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:49:00 - [112] Edited by: Victor Ivanov on 27/09/2007 21:49:43 Oh for the love of.... Right, let me end this topic right here and now: I was a nano pilot. I own a complete set of snakes, all navigation skills to 5. IT DOES NOT WORK. Interceptors and vaga's can indeed go fast. Guess what, they are supposed to. Your cruise missiles can't hit a vaga? Awww. THEY AREN't SUPPOSED TO! What most people don't realize is that the power of the old famous Nano-phoon did not lie in its speed alone. It was the agility. A fully faction, deadspace fitted nanophoon back in the pre nerf days was as agile as a frigate. Now, the only BS that people admit still works as a nanoship is the Machariel. Well, I got one. Yes, nano fitted. Honestly: I trashed the entire setup and just went with a tempy fit that just so happens to reach 3km/s. The ships are too bulky, too slow, too difficult to turn with. Nano-ishtar's, Nano-Vaga's, nano-interceptors are all ships that are created to be fast. As a means of balance, getting one webbed would utterly decimate them, due to the fact that they don't have tanks. Any tanks. With a BS this used to be an issue, because they could actually sustain some form of damage and their DPS was so much higher than cruiser sized ships. In other words, the chances were good a nano-phoon would have gotten 2-3 kills while you were trying to lure him into webbing range. This is not an issue with cruiser sized ships! They have the dps of a wet blanket, and a tank that even a frigate can break. Seriously....I know whining is the "in" thing, but this is just rubbing salt in the wounds. Speed ships used to be fun, and they were utterly murdered. Someone claiming that they are still overpowered is just being sadistic. They are dead. Gone. No longer feasible ships apart from bumping carriers, but only because it's travelling in a straight line and doesn't have to make any turns. ----------------------
Meleira Luan Tiger Trading	Posted - 2007.09.27 22:03:00 - [113] Originally by: Splagada Originally by: Nicho Void You thinking that mass has an effect on acceleration in zero gravity space is a failing point. actually it does ! F=ma works anywhere If F=ma in Eve why does my ship deaccelarate and stop when I turn off my engines?
Zed Nash	Posted - 2007.09.27 22:11:00 - [114] Changes title of thread to "OMG, BUFF MISSILES!!!" Really, if you wanted to whine about missiles, you should have titled your thread accordingly. Drawing people in with a title about speed mods, then using 4/5ths of your arguement to explain why missiles need a buff, it's just bad debate. "Maya Rkell is my online stalker."
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:33:00 - [115] Forum PVP: When you can't win in-game, so you come to the forums and whine in the hopes that the masses will unite under your nerf-banner, thereby causing the devs to cave to the pressure.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.09.28 00:09:00 - [116] Edited by: Stuart Price on 28/09/2007 00:09:28 Make t2 missiles not be crap. Precisions dealing less damage to similar sized targets than standard but MUCH more to smaller targets than standard. Rage dealing more damage to everything but being slower/less flight time. EDIT: And without the frankly quite silly penalties they currently have. Precision missiles will then > nanotanks without requiring a Cerb to do it. Also, let's examine a few existing ways of dealing with nanotanks. 1. Ewar. 2. Ignore them. Laugh at the damage. The only existing problem with nanotanks has more to do with drone boats than the famous vagabond imho, in that a small gang of them can wipe out a substantially larger force of non nanotanked ships beyond a reasonably expected capability. Tweak yes, but not necessarily the speed mods themselves. Tweak the countermeasures to be more effective. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.28 00:18:00 - [117] For nano-ishtars, just shoot the drones, they cant hold all that many and they cant exactly scoop and redeploy... T2 missiles are no worse off than t2 gun ammo, only the precision is worth it(just like how only the long range ammo is worth it), faction is better than the high damage t2 ammo.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.28 00:59:00 - [118] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Illyria Ambri To use the dreaded real life example.. MiG-25 Foxbat 2,115 mph. The fastest jet fighter in the world. F-15 Eagle 1,875 mph. Fastest United States jet fighter. VS. Russian Topol SS-27 (the worlds fastest missile) 10,800mph US AIM-54 Phoenix missile In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph) I'd like to slap you. Stop with the real life comparisons and nerf nerfs. Real life comparisons work great: Speed of a Space Shuttle Basically we go faster than most "speed" ships right now, if anything we need to go faster in EvE..... Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Sister Impotentata Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.28 01:04:00 - [119] Look, I know a guy what runs "302" class 'stangs nationally. In the championship points. Only thing stock on that frame is the frame... and the brakes. Stock '67 rear drums. Low nines and high 130s. Do we need better brakes? You tryin to take all the fun out of it? ----- TANSTAAFL When I engage these coils normally I do about 2x10^6 dps. But I try to avoid that because people, entire populations, like die. So I try to keep it to about 4x10^3 dps.
Triumdicta	Posted - 2007.09.28 01:24:00 - [120] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 27/09/2007 15:47:54 Yuppers... When you consider that the same technology would be applied to missiles as ships for thrust, it doesn't make sense that a vessel that contains equipment that a missile doesn't need (life support, a crew, shields, armor plating, faster than light drive, and ammunition) and the missile is slower? Makes no sense at all. The lighter the warhead and supporting electronics, the faster the missile will be if all other things are taken into consideration. This would means that an unguided missile or rocket, with the same thruster, will be faster than a guided missile or rocket. It's completely reversed and fubar'd beyond sci-fi, or sci-real. I find it completely distracting to the point of silliness when I feel I should be impressed with the thought of futuristic technologies. This is a failing point in game immersion, grade - F except sometimes a ship will have a MWD. so bring in MWD equipped missiles!



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