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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Swedish Bob
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.22 08:58:00 -
[1171]
Why do I have a feeling that CCP in a few days will come out and say that they are not changing carriers. Then once Rev3 rolls around carriers will get stealth nerfed. Much like the mini nerf they did to mineral compression.
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 08:59:00 -
[1172]
Originally by: Icome4u FAILED. Go join Zulupark in the corner for a sit out.
I suppose its easier to write "failed" or "idiot" instead of responding to an argument, maybe I should try that.
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Beth Dei
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Posted - 2007.10.22 08:59:00 -
[1173]
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: rig0r Edited by: rig0r on 22/10/2007 08:54:48 NO.
Stop 'fixing' lag by nerfing ships.
This seems to be an attempt to adjust the ships role and not really a solution to lag in any way, shape or form.
We already have logistics cruisers, thanks.
Maybe for the T2 Carrier.
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:01:00 -
[1174]
Originally by: Beth Dei We already have logistics cruisers, thanks.
Maybe for the T2 Carrier.
And we already had battleships before dreads, should we not have bothered with any more damage deals then?
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jokerb
Caldari THE INQUISITI0N
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:04:00 -
[1175]
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: Beth Dei We already have logistics cruisers, thanks.
Maybe for the T2 Carrier.
And we already had battleships before dreads, should we not have bothered with any more damage deals then?
strawman, next...
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:06:00 -
[1176]
Originally by: jokerb
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: Beth Dei We already have logistics cruisers, thanks.
Maybe for the T2 Carrier.
And we already had battleships before dreads, should we not have bothered with any more damage deals then?
strawman, next...
Perhaps, but the underlying point is, why would it be wrong to have more than one class of ship which fills essentially the same role? Every ship doesn't necessarily have to be damage oriented.
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Rusty PwnStar
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:08:00 -
[1177]
Originally by: Vandalias
Edit: by all means enlighten me.
After I buy said Titan from the local 0.0 store, simply training the Capship skill to 5 followed by the Titan skill, would not make me a Titan pilot. There are other skills needed for the titan use. Those skills would take months.
The character is relevant to the discussion, as it informs others of the persons experience or lack of. You have shown in your replies, a lack of said experience and knowledge of skills and the training required to use certain ship types.
This will be my last reply to you, I'll not be drawn into your trolling attempts anymore. View and reply this as you will.
Regards Rusty |
Rachen Mysuna
Brotherhood of Polar Equation Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:10:00 -
[1178]
no, definitely no
people who are wise enough to go solo with a carrier/ms usually get theirs destroyed anyway and we get to read fun threads
just let them be, k?
try not to "midas" touch anything for a while and see how it goes |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:13:00 -
[1179]
Originally by: CCP Zulupark The idea we had is: 'Should Carriers and Motherships be more support role oriented then they are now?' Then we thought, what's a way to do that, and came up with this one.
That's when we decided to just blog the idea, and get some feedback on 2 things: 1. Do you like this idea (that is the more-support-oriented idea)? 4. If you don't like the idea at all, why not?
1. No Sir, I don't like the idea.
4. I don't like the idea because it makes no sense and furthermore it is not working.
It makes no sense because carriers are ALREADY support ships. And they need at least SOME defence. And nerfing the drones you destroy the only defence they have. Especially, but not only, motherships are way too expensive to rely on a support fleet which can easily lag out/desync.
It is not working because we all know that Eve is not the perfect world as we would all like it to have. There, where the carriers are most often used, in large fleet battles, is a lot of lag. You have lag of 30+ seconds and more from one command to the next: : you cannot repair a ship that already 30 seconds ago exploded. Furthermore, carriers are dampened a lot so that they cannot target anything and therefore they cannot be used as repair ships either!
Delegating fighters is good and fine, but what if ship with the fighters explodes? You need to search a new ship and give them the fighters? Please explain me how that should be done in a fleet battle!
Also: Why do you want to TAKE AWAY something which people worked towards a year and longer??
Instead of taking away you should ADD SOMETHING NEW! The triage module, that was a good idea and in order with above said. It didn't take anything away, it just gave you something new. This is how things should work. This is how to make people happy. Leave the current mechanics alone, don't change them (in the sum they are really working okay!) but add something new.
Besides that, what should carriers do even more as support?? With the changes you plan you only push them even more towards being nothing but a hauler. And as far as I understood, for that role CCP will give us the jumpdrive freighter. So carriers will be completely useless. (Much cheaper to use 5 logistic ships than 1 carrier, and also much less skill intensive.)
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:13:00 -
[1180]
Originally by: Rusty PwnStar
Originally by: Vandalias
Edit: by all means enlighten me.
After I buy said Titan from the local 0.0 store, simply training the Capship skill to 5 followed by the Titan skill, would not make me a Titan pilot. There are other skills needed for the titan use. Those skills would take months.
The character is relevant to the discussion, as it informs others of the persons experience or lack of. You have shown in your replies, a lack of said experience and knowledge of skills and the training required to use certain ship types.
This will be my last reply to you, I'll not be drawn into your trolling attempts anymore. View and reply this as you will.
1. I never said all you needed was cap 5 and the titan skill to be an effective titan pilot, I said that was all you needed to get in the ship. There is a difference between boarding a ship and being an effective pilot which you seem to be missing.
2. Again you are dismissing my points based your perceived notion of me as a person/character. The person making the points is irrelevant since the points stand on their own, attack the argument.
3. o/
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jokerb
Caldari THE INQUISITI0N
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:14:00 -
[1181]
More logical fallacy, nice try though :) Next.. You appear to be baiting people with rhetoric that only seeks to inflame.
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:16:00 -
[1182]
Originally by: Gnulpie It makes no sense because carriers are ALREADY support ships. And they need at least SOME defence. And nerfing the drones you destroy the only defence they have. Especially, but not only, motherships are way too expensive to rely on a support fleet which can easily lag out/desync.
That support fleet is a much much more important defense than the carriers own drones. Also, if the support fleet is lagging out/desyncing theres a good change the MS will be doing the same so even your own drones won't be of much use.
I don't think lag should be factored into discussions on ship balance though.
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:17:00 -
[1183]
Originally by: jokerb More logical fallacy, nice try though :) Next.. You appear to be baiting people with rhetoric that only seeks to inflame.
Please explain.
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Loney
CyberDyne R-D
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:17:00 -
[1184]
They need to adjust the Tirage Mode of the Carrier and make a system to reduce the number of fighters/drones for every empire level .1= 8, .2=7, .3=6, .4=5 and Nerf the effects for Drone Interface Module in empire ONLY. ...
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Yaay
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:17:00 -
[1185]
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: Rusty PwnStar
Originally by: Vandalias
Edit: by all means enlighten me.
After I buy said Titan from the local 0.0 store, simply training the Capship skill to 5 followed by the Titan skill, would not make me a Titan pilot. There are other skills needed for the titan use. Those skills would take months.
The character is relevant to the discussion, as it informs others of the persons experience or lack of. You have shown in your replies, a lack of said experience and knowledge of skills and the training required to use certain ship types.
This will be my last reply to you, I'll not be drawn into your trolling attempts anymore. View and reply this as you will.
1. I never said all you needed was cap 5 and the titan skill to be an effective titan pilot, I said that was all you needed to get in the ship. There is a difference between boarding a ship and being an effective pilot which you seem to be missing.
2. Again you are dismissing my points based your perceived notion of me as a person/character. The person making the points is irrelevant since the points stand on their own, attack the argument.
3. o/
How about you guys take your mud slinging to somewhere else and turn attention back on how dumb the devs are behaving?
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Icome4u
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:17:00 -
[1186]
Originally by: jokerb More logical fallacy, nice try though :) Next.. You appear to be baiting people with rhetoric that only seeks to inflame.
His an iddiot and a noob that just discovered he can bother people OOG also. Someone take his posting privileges away please.
This sig demonstrate the problem is not drones or fighters but the amount of people show up to blobs and fleets. |
Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:19:00 -
[1187]
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: rig0r Edited by: rig0r on 22/10/2007 08:54:48 NO.
Stop 'fixing' lag by nerfing ships.
This seems to be an attempt to adjust the ships role and not really a solution to lag in any way, shape or form.
A ship's role is determined by its abilities. Discouraging gameplay of one type does not automatically encourage another. Behaviour is guided by incentives. As it stands, carriers and motherships have practically zero incentives to operate in a 'support' role. And, what is 'support'? The only form there appears to be is remote repairing which is impractical and inefficient in anything but small scale combat.
The fact is carriers and motherships offer support in the form of firepower and resiliance. That is because their functionality is limited to that application. It's what they can do. In that scope, they are either useful or they are not. If they are not useful for one purpose, they will not become any more useful to any other purpose. They will simply become useless, which is what this proposed change would do.
Another purpose must first exist independently. Only when there are two purposes that compete, does the undermining of one encourage the use of the other (and even then, only to some extent). For carriers and motherships, that other purpose must first be created before it is reasonable to nerf their current purpose. ---
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:22:00 -
[1188]
Originally by: Icome4u His an iddiot and a noob that just discovered he can bother people OOG also. Someone take his posting privileges away please.
Forum Rules:
4. Be respectful of others at all times. The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
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Icome4u
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:24:00 -
[1189]
Edited by: Icome4u on 22/10/2007 09:25:11
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: Icome4u His an iddiot and a noob that just discovered he can bother people OOG also. Someone take his posting privileges away please.
Forum Rules:
4. Be respectful of others at all times. The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
Then stop posting your crap kid. You are a troll baiting for flames. You were warned a couple times to stop posting/trolling. Keep going and you'll end up with a nice ban from the forums.
Edit: How many people does it take for you to understand you are wrong and just trolling? 10? 20? 30? I'm couting almost 15 right now, keep going toward the ban kiddo.
This sig demonstrate the problem is not drones or fighters but the amount of people show up to blobs and fleets. |
ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:24:00 -
[1190]
lets try and avoid to flame zulupark guys, at it has been pointed out there were more then one dev that came up with this, zulu was just unlucky enough to be the one that had to post this
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Incredibuild
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:24:00 -
[1191]
Looks like he tried several times to do just that, and you seem to be egging on the flame war, and I support his response to yours, he knows what he is talking about, and spent a lot of time crafting good responses. I hope they close this thread before it hits 50 pages at this point.
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Mag's
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:24:00 -
[1192]
Originally by: Vandalias
Originally by: Rusty PwnStar
Originally by: Vandalias
Edit: by all means enlighten me.
After I buy said Titan from the local 0.0 store, simply training the Capship skill to 5 followed by the Titan skill, would not make me a Titan pilot. There are other skills needed for the titan use. Those skills would take months.
The character is relevant to the discussion, as it informs others of the persons experience or lack of. You have shown in your replies, a lack of said experience and knowledge of skills and the training required to use certain ship types.
This will be my last reply to you, I'll not be drawn into your trolling attempts anymore. View and reply this as you will.
1. I never said all you needed was cap 5 and the titan skill to be an effective titan pilot, I said that was all you needed to get in the ship. There is a difference between boarding a ship and being an effective pilot which you seem to be missing.
2. Again you are dismissing my points based your perceived notion of me as a person/character. The person making the points is irrelevant since the points stand on their own, attack the argument.
3. o/
You need to stop the trolling attempts. He quite plainly pointed out that having the Titan skill wouldn't make him a Titan pilot, so what was he missing in his reply?
Seems to me that a 6 month old NPC Corp. noob, would know little to nothing regarding the issue. Post with your main or leave the thread. (Fat chance of either)
Back on the subject at hand.
This would kill off the use of the carrier, in all but a very few instances.
Mag's
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Starfury Shang
Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:26:00 -
[1193]
Edited by: Starfury Shang on 22/10/2007 09:31:18 Edited by: Starfury Shang on 22/10/2007 09:28:25 Edited by: Starfury Shang on 22/10/2007 09:27:12 Edited by: Starfury Shang on 22/10/2007 09:26:53 (Puts on flame ******ant suit) How about using something like Drone points (similar to the ships/points system used in the Alliance championships). Each drone/fighter variant has a certain number of points. Rough example: Light T1 drones - 1 point Medium T1 drones - 3 point Heavy T1 drones - 5 point Light T2 drones - 2 point Medium T2 drones - 4 point Heavy T2 drones - 6 point Fighter drones - 10 point ,etc. etc.
Each ship with a drone bay, as well as having a maximum drone bay size, has a maximum drone point level and can launch a mixture of drone types upto their point maximum. The ships maximum drone point level could maybe be altered with a skill if balancing is required. This could give you the option of, for instance lots of light drones, some medium drones or a few heavy drones, or a mixture, (the points above were quickly done and not balanced at all).
Just my two penneth
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:27:00 -
[1194]
Originally by: Jin Entres A ship's role is determined by its abilities. Discouraging gameplay of one type does not automatically encourage another. Behaviour is guided by incentives. As it stands, carriers and motherships have practically zero incentives to operate in a 'support' role. And, what is 'support'? The only form there appears to be is remote repairing which is impractical and inefficient in anything but small scale combat.
The fact is carriers and motherships offer support in the form of firepower and resiliance. That is because their functionality is limited to that application. It's what they can do. In that scope, they are either useful or they are not. If they are not useful for one purpose, they will not become any more useful to any other purpose. They will simply become useless, which is what this proposed change would do.
Another purpose must first exist independently. Only when there are two purposes that compete, does the undermining of one encourage the use of the other (and even then, only to some extent). For carriers and motherships, that other purpose must first be created before it is reasonable to nerf their current purpose.
With the proposed changes the carrier will still be able to delegate its fighters in the same manner it could before, so the carriers will still be able to provide support in that manner. I don't think being able to directly control the fights is necessary for the carriers to be able to fill that particular support role. Granted it will require a few more hopes to jump through to get those fighters into the fight, but the ability is still there.
As far as remore repping goes it is incredibly useful in engagements where there isn't enough alpha to down the target ship between rep cycles which pretty much rules out large scale sniping engagements, but I'm not sure carriers are of too much use in sniping engagements as it is now, so I don't see how these changes would affect it in that area.
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Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:27:00 -
[1195]
I dont mind this change, but for the love of god, if you do this, fix the following issues first:
1. Targetting of gang mates is WAY to slow, and no, Triage is not the answer. 2. Slow rightclick menus suck, I need a fast and simple tool to assign fighters to gangmates. I also need to be able to see who has fighters from other carriers. 3. Fix the problems with fighters not returning to the carrier etc. They should return asap, not take ages...
Regards /Doxs After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:29:00 -
[1196]
Originally by: Icome4u Then stop posting your crap kid. You are a troll baiting for flames. You were warned a couple times to stop posting/trolling. Keep going and you'll end up with a nice ban from the forums.
Edit: How many people does it take for you to understand you are wrong and just trolling? 10? 20? 30? I'm couting almost 15 right now, keep going toward the ban kiddo.
I was unaware that disagreeing with a majority automatically makes someone a troll. I am attempting to discuss the changes at hand and point out what I perceive are holes in others arguments against the proposed changes for the sake of discussion. If that is against the spirit of this thread I apologize.
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burning raven
omen. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:30:00 -
[1197]
making changes for the sake of it = failcave making arguments for the sake of it = failcave
that is all.
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Alexandra Silverscream
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:33:00 -
[1198]
Since this thread has become way too large for anyone to find anything in here I have made a proposal for a carrier/mothership fix here:
Mothership/Carrier fix proposal
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:33:00 -
[1199]
Originally by: Yaay Hey devs... 46 pages of emo rage... ready for that appology for the total insult to our intellegence, and lack of your own yet?
maybe when you apologyse for insulting him like this?
Peopel need to grow up and stop lookign at their own belly button.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.22 09:33:00 -
[1200]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 22/10/2007 09:34:50 The goal is understandable. The suggestion by the devs on how to achieve it is simple as that "bullsh1t".
Now one can argue about my chosen words, but: if something is that bad, then it got a name, why not use its name?
Now here is why: 1. new ships are entering EvE - none knows their balance issues 2. whole ship lines are broken on several races 3. single ship designs are obsolete or just unusable 4. some modules still have no stacking nerf and can be abused to any extent 5. the new Heavy Assault Missile line needs a revamp and a thorough balancing with Heavy Missiles and Light Missiles, esspecially Missile velocity needs to be looked at. As it stands now, there is no chance for Missile users to hit very fast/Nano targets. Also the T2 missile lines are thoroughly broken due to past nerfage 6. Amarr is a broken races in regards to PvE. While many may argue they are fine, the truth is: Amarr are either good versus Sansha or only the Khanid ships can be used on any rat/plex for PvE. That is plain wrong 7. Triage is broken still 8. there are more issues...
Reading that a dev cares about Carriers being overpowered for ratting and actually cares about it makes my blood boil. - players who own a Carrier are either really rich or - are embedded in a corp/alliance which is industry heavy
In both cases it is fine with me, that he pwns the rats. It is also fine with me, that they do lowsec ganking. When you watch killboards, you know exactly what happens - striking news: they loose their Carrier. Frontline Carriers (used close to battle in same grid) suffered heavy losses from what I saw so far.
Players balance it, there is no need at all for CCP to intervene with Carriers ratting.
In all due respect: CCP do the urgent stuff and do not care for such low priority things. __
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