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Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:27:00 - [1] Foreword I have written this account primarily to interest people who do not play EVE in the rich politics and history of the game. I also want to make it clear that I am to some extent an 'Outsider'. I am not a regular correspondent with Mittani, nor is SirMolle someone with whom I have talked to more than a couple of times in my four years in EVE. I do not have (nor have ever had) an alt in Goons/RA/AAA or any other Coalition alliance and similarly I do not have any alts in BoB, MC, FIX or any other 'Alliance' corporation. Therefore there will undoubtedly be mistakes in this account and timelines may not be exactly perfect. Of course if anyone wishes they could stick this on a Wiki then everyone can tear it apart... As an 'Outsider' on the 'Great War' with a real life interest in politics and a career in PR I am going to try and make this portrayal as balanced as possible based upon the 'information' which I, as an avid reader or CAOD/SHC, have gleaned over the years. As such there will be mistakes and it will no doubt ** off pedants on both sides of the conflict (which really isn't my intent). All I can say to any critics is that I have written it from my own perspective based upon my own perceptions (and memories) and if they are wrong well then clearly someone has done a better job persuading me how to think than someone else. I honestly have no axe to grind for or against either side - My heart lies with Amarr :-) Finally as this 'history' covers a large period of time I have in the interests of brevity kept it focused on the main players and incidents, so if you feel that you have been unfairly excluded or that your role has not been given the credit it deserves then please feel free to write your own 'history'. Similarly I have to say that my EVE experience has almost completely been confined to Empire and the South so I probably have not given the 'Northern' elements of the war enough focus. In the beginning...** When EVE first started 0.0 was a wild and exciting place. Out if the initial chaos a number of strong unified alliances emerged which dominated large chunks of EVE real estate. Alliances such as Curse, Stain, Venal and Fountain will go down in EVE folklore. The wars amongst these alliances were monumental in scale but all were to be eventually eclipsed by the war which would become known as the 'Great War'. As time passed these big alliances started to splinter as competition for territory heated up. As CCP introduced new tools for the development of 0.0 insfrastructure (such as POSes and Outposts) it became clear that logistics would play an increasingly large part in the development of successful 0.0 alliances and the days of claiming large swathes of territory with limited numbers of players were coming to an end. ------------------------------
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:29:00 - [2] The roots of the conflict... Out of the gradual breakup of the original large alliances a number of new alliances emerged and foremost amongst these was Band of Brothers (BoB). BoB was made up of some of the best PvPers, tacticians and industrialists in the Universe and were seen by many as unstoppable. As BoB grew in power success bred success as it is a natural human instinct to gravitate towards perceived 'winners'. Despite this BoB was still limited in one respect - numbers. There is only so much space any alliance can take and hold successfully and that is limited by the amount of people they can field. There really is no point in holding space if you cannot police and utilise that space effectively. BoB cleverly and successfully got around this hurdle with the introduction of 'renters' or as some may term them 'pet' alliances. As BoB captured 0.0 real estate they 'rented' their newly captured territory out to other friendly alliances. These 'pets' were able to exploit the natural resources of these regions and in return had a guarantee that BoB would protect them in the event of a major attack. This system was extremely beneficial for BoB as it meant others would manage the day to day policing of their territory whilst simultaneously providing funds to finance further conquests. It was virtuous cycle which allowed BoB to grow in territory, strength and power. In addition, BoB were very cleverly recruiting and integrating many of the more capable enemies they had conquered into their own ranks, once again increasing the power of the alliance. Of course while success breeds success it also breeds resentment and jealousy. Those disposssessd in BoB conflicts (and not invited to join the party) grew increasingly bitter about BoB's success and spread resentment wherever they went. Alliances - even those friendly to BoB - were always looking over their shoulders, worried that they would be the next victims. BoB themselves added to the fear. As is natural their pilots and public statements took upon an arrogant tone. Statements that they intended to conquer the entire galaxy surely did not help their public image. Nevertheless there was a widespread belief that the alliance was untouchable - an image that BoB themselves fostered - and this certainly dissuaded many from even trying. Around two and a half years ago a new alliance was formed - Goonswarm. Goonswarm was an alliance created by members of the 'Something Awful' forums who joined EVE in massive numbers. While Goons had a large playerbase they lacked in skills, money and experience. They were also highly disrespectful of the 'established order' in EVE - something that did not endear them to the rest of the galaxy. Many viewed them as nothing more than a humourous diversion that would never amount to anything substantial. The 'ignore them and they will go away' attitude changed when it was discovered that a number of Goon members had been making fun of the real life death of another EVE player. This incident was widely condemned by the majority of the EVE community but it particularly incensed the BoB membership. Coincidentally this incident happened around the time Goons took their first tentative steps in 0.0. BoB in conjunction with a number of alliances including ASCN (at that time EVE's largest alliance) vowed to remove Goons from 0.0. The assault was a huge success. Goons pilots died in massive numbers and they were effectively destroyed as space holding alliance. The BoB leadership declared themselves pleased with the outcome of the campaign and insisted that Goons would never be allowed to set foot in 0.0 again. ------------------------------
Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:30:00 - [3] I'm calling HR if you don't do some work soon
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:32:00 - [4] Meanwhile in another part of the galaxy... As mentioned above ASCN were at this stage the most sizeable alliance in EVE. The ASCN alliance had been formed in the aftermath of a previous war and many of its members had joined EVE from the game Earth & Beyond when it had collapsed. While its PvP capabilities were questioned there was no question that its industrial capacity was immense and it took full advantage of a substantial network of Non Aggression Pacts (NAPs) to put gigantic investments into the infrastructure of its regions. Indeed so wealthy did this alliance become that it became the first alliance in game to construct and unveil a Titan class ship - a massive achievement. BoB at this stage had a firm grip on its home regions of Delve and Period Basis and had friendly alliances installed in Fountain and Querious protecting its borders. It was looking for a new challenge. It had two main options: D2 was a major alliance that occupied a number of regions north of Fountain. It was in theory a major rival and enemy of BoB but BoB did not 'appear' to deem them a significant threat. The other option was ASCN - who were in theory a friendly ally - but nonetheless an increasingly serious economic threat. The full scale attack that took place on ASCN astounded most neutral commmentators who had assumed that the natural target would have been D2 in the North. Nevertheless the attack was hugely successful. BoB swiftly destroyed ASCN morale - a particular turning point was the destruction of the ASCN leader's Titan - the first ship of this type to be destroyed - and BoB 'relatively' swiftly mopped up all resistance claiming three new regions in the process. These were subsequently let out to 'renter' allies such as RISE. This conquest meant that BoB now controlled much of the South of the EVE galaxy. Their border now reached right across the south coming to rest against the domain of Loktra Volterra. Loktra Volterra (LV) was another alliance friendly to BoB. While it had stayed out of the war against ASCN it had certainly not provided their former neighbours with any help against BoB. LV had been formed in the aftermath of the collapse of the old Curse Alliance and its main corporation - Shinra - certainly comprised some of the best PvPers in EVE at the time.LV (along with a number of other alliances) had been involved in a long drawn out war versus the Red Alliance (an alliance made up completely of Russians). The Red Alliance had at one stage held onto three regions in the East of EVE but gradually had been worn down by a mass of enemies to one solitary solar system. Nevertheless in a siege reminiscent of the siege of Stalingrad the Russians held on and gradually started to win back their territory, primarily from LV's allies who started to disintegrate in the face of the Red onslaught. As Red Alliance began to win back territory they made new friends. These included the Tau Ceti Federation (TCF) - an alliance made up of French players - and the Goons who now entered 0.0 again following their initial setback. The Goons now numbering several thousand members were by now much more skilled, much more experienced and much more wealthy. Their numbers combined with the tactical expertise of Red Alliance and TCF really started to swing the tide against the LV. While LV was probably one of EVE's better alliances in a straight fight, it found itself hopelessly outmatched by what had started to be called the RedswarmFederation 'RSF Coalition'. LV had also gotten itself involved in another war further elsewhere in the South... ------------------------------

ISD BH Kreul Intentions ISD BH	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:32:00 - [5] FYI - Once everything is posted I'll remove posts that are in between, those who post will be able to repost what they said. Just going to go for flow factor. Thank you. forum rules \| [email protected]

Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:34:00 - [6] Catch 22... The Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate (IAC) - led by the eccentric warlord Tyraxx Thoryk - had gradually taken control of the region called Catch. What was interesting about Catch was that it was also home to several Outposts constructed by the supoosedely neutral alliance called Interstellar Starbase Syndicate (ISS). Tensions gradually rose between IAC and ISS and also between IAC and their neighbours Firmus Ixion (FIX) who were occupying the neighbouring region of Querious and enjoyed BoB's protection. The first war in this area broke out when FIX, supported by the Mercenary Coalition alliance, launched an assault on an IAC Outpost close to the Querious border. IAC with the assistance of the Axiom Empire (AXE) alliance and their neighbours the Curatores Veritatis Alliance (CVA) had successfully ended the attack and peace broke out temporarily. However IAC had been upset that ISS had allowed the FIX/MC coalition to use their Outposts for the assault and as tension grew launched an assault on an ISS Outpost. ISS immediately called in help including FIX, Mercenary Coalition and LV (mentioned above) - successfully turning the tables on IAC. Instead of taking the ISS Outpost IAC lost one of their own and were on the point of losing another when the Russian Against All Authorities (AAA) alliance entered the battle on IAC's side. The AAA alliance - an early breakaway of some of the best PvPers of Red Alliance - had a substantial capital ship fleet and the Mercenary Coalition appeared unwilling to put their ships on the line against them without guarantees of adequate recompense from ISS. When these assurances were not forthcoming MC withdrew from the fight. The start of the 'Great War'... With LV involved in defending ISS the RSF Coalition saw this at the perfect opportunity to attack LV holdings and made rapid gains. As their own territory was under threat LV also withdrew from the war in Catch leaving ISS to its fate. ISS without adequate combat support rapidly folded. IAC retook its station and also siezed other ISS stations in the Catch region. While LV were heavily fortified in their own space they were now facing a mass of enemies in the shape of the RSF coalition who were determined to destroy them. Slowly but surely they were being forced back to the point where even there own capital system was being sieged. BoB now decided to take a hand and joined in the fight on the side of LV but it was too little too late and LV collapsed with the better elements being incorporated into BoB. Despite this the intervention of BoB and allies succeeded in slowing the RSF assault and indeed quickly began to retake former LV systems in Detorid. This front temporarily devolved into a bloody stalemate ------------------------------
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:36:00 - [7] The Mongol Horde... Earlier I mentioned the Mercenary Coalition (MC) alliance. As a mercenary group MC were in theory neutral with respect to the 'Great War'. However, they owned a number of systems located in BoB space which BoB had given them many years before in return for services rendered. According to their proclomations MC would not get involved in the'Great War' unless either side coughed up enough cash. Following their withdrawal from the ISS fight MC had indeed stepped back from direct involvement in the 'Great War'. However with their intervention on the side of ISS against IAC and AAA - who were now self declared members of the anti-BoB Coaltion - many felt that their neutrality was in question. In a move which many neutrals likened to poking a beehive with a stick, AAA with some Goon support launched an attack on one of the MC's home systems while they were busy on an unrelated contract in the North. MC rushed home and succeeded in defending their systems but not before they lost a super-capital which had been under construction in one of their shipyards. ****ed off by this attack MC offered their services to BoB. This was by no means an insignificant development. MC had over the years developed one of the most impressive capital fleets in the game, piloted by many of the galaxy's best pilots. As outlined above, BoB were by now tied up in the South East fighting the RSF Coalition in Detorid. However a new front had already opened up as D2, along with a group of other Northern alliances had formed a 'Northern Coalition' which took the opportunity to take the offense against BoB (and allies) in the Fountain region. MC were directed to assist on this front. What followed was pure carnage. In a display of absolute effectiveness MC routed the Northern Coalition again and again in a example of ruthless pure power which amazed all who witnessed it. In the comparitively short timeframe of four weeks MC destroyed D2 (who were considered by to be one of the main rivals to BoB), Razor and several other members of the 'Northern Coalition' who stood in their way - in the process siezing control of numerous Outposts and systems enroute to the farthest Northern reaches of the map. Many smaller alliances with an eye to an easy gain joined MC on this campaign and were rewarded by being given these territories when MC finally withdrew. With this campaign resolved MC wound down its operations in the North and returned home. ------------------------------
Hungo Minmatar Nightfallz	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:36:00 - [8] again hardin bores eve with his long winded crap
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:38:00 - [9] The pressure mounts on The Alliance... In contrast to MC's whirlwind success in their North Western campaign BoB were slowly giving ground in the South East to the RSF Coalition. The Southern Coalition also now included alliances such as United Legion (UNL) and Knights of the Southerncross (KOS). The huge numbers of Goons, supported by the battlehardened Red Alliance and TCF had pushed BoB out of Detorid and were putting BoB and their allies under pressure in Omist. Elsewhere IAC and AAA had not sat on their hands either and had opened up another front by launching an assault on FIX alliance in Querious. BoB could not afford for FIX Alliance to fail as Querious sits like a dagger pointed at its home regions of Delve and Period Basis. Mercenary Coalition were once again called into action on 'The Alliance' side as were Axiom Empire (AXE) who also joined in the fight. The involvement of MC and AXE stopped the IAC/AAA assault and started pushing them out of Querious but unlike their previous campaign this was a heavy duty and protracted slugging match for MC and co. By now BoB had almost given over control of Omist to Coalition Forces and probing attacks were already starting to be made on BoB renter allies in Feythabolis who were getting a bit twitchy at suddenly being on the frontline of the greatest war EVE has ever seen. Playing a game of Catch... With the war teetering in an apparent knife edge BoB took one of the most controversial decision of the war. In information leaked by Goon spies it became apparent that BoB was going to leave the defence of Feythabolis to its renter allies whilst it joined FIX and MC in an assault on AAA and IAC in Catch. The consequences of this decision was two fold. Without BoB support The Alliance forces in Omist and Feythabolis started to ***** allowing the RSF Coalition to start making swift gains across the South. By now not only had they recaptured the territory that they had originally taken off LV but they were also making inroads into the territory BoB had conquered from ASCN. However as RSF started trying to consolidate and incorporate their gains into their growing Empire BoB/MC/Fix and friends launched a full scale inavsion of Catch. Despite help from AAA and some assistance from neighbours CVA, IAC simply could not defend their space against the combined forces of BoB/MC and started to buckle. After a protracted struggle over their first Outpost IAC lost four more in quick succession before the campaign against IAC subsided. Despite the IAC losses in Outposts and territory The Alliance did not push this victory through to its potentially fatal conclusion, leaving IAC with control of five Outposts Eastern Catch. ------------------------------
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:38:00 - [10] Edited by: The Mittani on 30/11/2007 16:39:21 wow thats a lot of words :o technically im not sure how 'outside' cva is since you're allied with IAC who are our brosefs, and that paxton fed vs bob thing was pretty lawl

Jeremy Paxman Special Doc	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Hungo again hardin bores eve with his long winded crap lol I just wet my pants
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:39:00 - [12] The 'suicide pact'... Despite their success in Catch BoB had in the process pretty much ceded everything they had gained from ASCN. This action was confirmed when BoB made a public announcement that they were pulling their remaining forces back to their home regions of Delve and Period Basis and asking all of their 'renter' alliances to do the same. This move was termed by many as a 'galactic suicide pact'. Of course this decision has had consequences. Some of BoB's allies such as Interstellar Starbase Syndicate (ISS) chose instead to withdraw to Empire rather than relocate to BoB stations and potentially have all their assets frozen at the whim of the BoB leadership. Neverthless many view BoB's move as a clever gamble designed to shorten their lines of supply and logistics whilst giving their enemies increased supply problems. It is clear that BoB will enjoy many advantages fighting on their own turf in Delve and Period Basis and no one with any sense would ever bet against BoB. Similarly the Coalition appears to have gathered a significant amount of momentum. AAA and IAC are starting to claim back space in Catch whilst the Northern Coalition has rebuilt itself following the MC blitzkreig and is once again contributing to the assault on BoB. Are we drawing to an end of this Great War which has gripped EVE for the last two years or is this merely the start of a new chapter! We shall have to wait and see :) The position as it stands now: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/newblocmap.png ------------------------------
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:41:00 - [13] ok since my other post will be nuked for being between all the words: the thing about the suicide pact is that it wasn't only ISS who said 'screw this' and left aftermath never moved into delve like they were supposed to, they left for curse likewise digital renegades isn't in the theatre anymore iirc youwhat is in syndicate or at least some of them
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:42:00 - [14] To the whiners - you are not obliged to read it. If you don't like it fine. I am sure to many it is probably all old news but I thought some of you may be interested. If you're not then it's no skin off my nose ------------------------------
Shadoo North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:42:00 - [15] That's a lot of text... on a quick glance seems accurate from my point of view at least, thou a lot of credit is given to certain organizations where perhaps credit is not deserved. But that's neither here or there, it's all PR after all.
JeanPaul Sartre 26th of July Movement	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:43:00 - [16] I read "Career in PR" and "portrayal as balanced as possible" and couldn't help but laugh. Thanks for the post! -- Quote: If a victory is told in detail, one can no longer distinguish it from a defeat.
Aggape Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:46:00 - [17] Edited by: Aggape on 30/11/2007 16:45:59 It started good, but became worse with every poast. 4/10
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:48:00 - [18] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/11/2007 16:54:47 Originally by: Hardin BoB in conjunction with a number of alliances including ASCN (at that time EVE's largest alliance) vowed to remove Goons from 0.0. At a ASCN director at the time, I can tell you a bit more about this. ASCN had Goons as positive, then were made neutral due to the bob v goon conflict. With the hostiles at the time being anyone red on a Standings chart ASCN had. At the time, BoB themselves were put as negative. Some more hints were passed to shoot any hostiles in Goon area, and even more indirect hints being not to attack bob, but present yourself as a target and retaliate if need be. Eventually, towards the end of the Bob v Goon war, CYVOK made a Alliance mail saying that goons will be hostile due to doing something they should not have. Even then, other than some unorganised, bored pvper making lone ranger charges, ASCN as a alliance was not involved in removing Goons. Towards the end of the BoB v ASCN war, goons were set positive again, not that it mattered as most corps had/were leaving ASCN by then. Again this is coming from memory so correct me if I missed anything out. ASCN never vowed to remove goons, however, given that the Alliance leader at the time used to say a ...... lot of things.... I think it was the politics game that gave you that perception. -- Billion Isk Mission
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:54:00 - [19] Edited by: Hardin on 30/11/2007 16:54:42 As I said at the start (for those who could be bothered to actually read before they started criticising) this is a 'personal' view of the events from an OUTSIDER. Are there mistakes and errors - no doubt - This is just my own take on the events of the past couple of years right or wrong! If people do want to pull it to pieces then by all means go right ahead. As stated this is simply my own perspective (and I honestly have no axe to grind) with either the Coalition or the Alliance... I suppose I should expect a bit of abuse - after all it is a pretty sensitive subject! ------------------------------
Aenis Veros Caldari Alphaflight	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:55:00 - [20] tl;dr

Emo Thug Rage And Tantrums	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:55:00 - [21] Edited by: Emo Thug on 30/11/2007 16:56:02 Its even roleplayed for you
Martin Mckenna D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:58:00 - [22] Very good post. ---------------------------------------------
TeufelsBeitrag Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Hardin In the comparitively short timeframe of four weeks MC destroyed D2 (who were considered by to be one of the main rivals to BoB), Razor and several other members of the 'Northern Coalition' who stood in their way - in the process siezing control of numerous Outposts and systems enroute to the farthest Northern reaches of the map. Razor were never destroyed.
Black Torment Caldari Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:00:00 - [24] Edited by: Black Torment on 30/11/2007 17:00:36 Read 1/2 so far, you got most of the facts straight, but.. Quote: Of course while success breeds success it also breeds resentment and jealousy. Those disposssessd in BoB conflicts (and not invited to join the party) grew increasingly bitter about BoB's success and spread resentment wherever they went. Doesn't seem entirely unbiased to me.. Also reference to stalingrad? You just broke CAOD's #1 unwritten rule, don't compare stuff to RL wars or someone's gonna get upset. Other than that its passable I guess.. continues reading
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:01:00 - [25] Originally by: TeufelsBeitrag Originally by: Hardin In the comparitively short timeframe of four weeks MC destroyed D2 (who were considered by to be one of the main rivals to BoB), Razor and several other members of the 'Northern Coalition' who stood in their way - in the process siezing control of numerous Outposts and systems enroute to the farthest Northern reaches of the map. Razor were never destroyed. Good point - I should have said evicted... ------------------------------
hangnoose Caldari The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:05:00 - [26] Edited by: hangnoose on 30/11/2007 17:06:20 Originally by: TeufelsBeitrag Originally by: Hardin In the comparitively short timeframe of four weeks MC destroyed D2 (who were considered by to be one of the main rivals to BoB), Razor and several other members of the 'Northern Coalition' who stood in their way - in the process siezing control of numerous Outposts and systems enroute to the farthest Northern reaches of the map. Razor were never destroyed. Indeed, if I remember right d2 were the only ones in the north to completely disband, everyone else either switched sides or dropped out of the war. You also don't mention razor/mm/pure/hydra re took branch and tenal from the alliances mc installed there and Tri took deklein from the alliances that took control of that space. If I was an outsider reading this it would seem to me bob friendly alliances still hold the north >_>
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Hungo again hardin bores eve with his long winded crap Next time he'll insert some pictures for the less gifted people like you. - Gob IXC Recruitment
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:10:00 - [28] for one of the better 'on its face' histories of the great war i strongly recommend Yalson's posts from the FIX board and now the MC boards, they are pretty awesome he misses a lot of the behind the scenes politics (becuase that doesn't get posted on forums of course) but he's excellent with citing and referencing stuff i think he fell for our 'resetting stain' troll though sorry brosef
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:14:00 - [29] Originally by: hangnoose If I was an outsider reading this it would seem to me bob friendly alliances still hold the north >_> I did kinda rush the end as it was long enough. The last post contains this paragraph: ...whilst the Northern Coalition has rebuilt itself following the MC blitzkreig and is once again contributing to the assault on BoB. As I said at start my 'Northern' knowledge is sketchy whereas 'down South' I was always much more of an interested observer. Similarly in relation to some of Mittani's comments above when Goons arrived on the scene I wasn't really paying that much attention (similar to most people there) and as a result that section is very general and no doubt could be filled in much better by people who were there. What I was trying to get across here was more of a 'flavour' of the ebb and flow of the conflict rather than a 100% accurate account... ------------------------------
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Seleene Awesome stuff, Hardin; about as good a summary as can be expected from an 'outsider' point of view. I really should poke Yalson about consolidating all of his posts into one location for reference. we should have archives of the fix ones somewhere, he was actually one of the first people to realize i had anything to do with stuff, and he called it right from the very start though actually he said that maybe it was Xirtram behind things too so welp, maybe its just my internet space tyrant ego talkin



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