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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:17:00 -
[211]
Originally by: F'nog I gotta disagree with you there, Nyph. The old adage goes: "If it's too good to be true, it's probably an exploit."
The problem with that is where the line is drawn. At what point does something become "obviously" an exploit. For example, shooting at a POS that didn't fire back is not unheard of. The guns could be misconfigured in the management panel, couldn't they? And what if you kill an NPC BS and get 4% sec increase instead of 0.4%? Is that obviously an exploit or might you think it's intended?
The problem is that you'd be banning someone over their interpretation of some game mechanic. With the variety of players we have in eve from different countries and backgrounds, you can't just assume that all of them will instinctively know when a game mechanic is broken. Hell, I think webbing a ship that's aligned but not up to speed to make it instawarp is a bit broken but it's not officially an exploit and lots of people use it. If they decided tomorrow to make this an exploit, should I be banned for using it yesterday?
The only clear-cut way to make sure people are intentionally breaking the rules is to tell them it's against the rules and see if they continue to do it. For example, if you jettison 100 shuttles outside a station by accident, you will not be banned. Instead, if someone petitions, a GM will warn you not to do it again and only if you disobey the GM by doing it again will you be punished.
Quote: Do you really think that many people didn't realize that by attacking POSes that didn't fire back at all, with 0 RoF dreads wasn't a problem?
0 RoF dreads would be a serious issue but the guns not firing back could be user error.
Quote: The fact is that there were several, possibly many, corps out there who took advantage of this bug. They knew they were getting away with murder, but they continued to do it. I'm also sure these will be the first who stop attacking POSes, because they're also smart enough to read the news.
You're probably right about that but GMs really can't afford to spend hundreds of manhours hunting down every person who shot at a POS that didn't fire back and trying to determine whether or not they knew they were executing an exploit? This is the best they can do.
Quote: People have been banned in the past for exploiting things before something official was posted. The only reason CCP isn't doing anything this time is the workload of so many exploiting it.
As I said above, you're probably right about that but it's not just a matter of making it easier on themselves, it's also a question of quality of service. GM manhours spent thoroughly resolving this might be better spent on the dozens of other issues they're having to deal with.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Jamie Hara
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:19:00 -
[212]
Originally by: GM Grimmi EDIT: Clarification: Abusing the current POS warfare mechanics after the posting of the news item is considered an exploit. Those that participated in POS warfare prior to the news item will have nothing to fear.
The above statement contradicts your EULA and TOS. Please clarify your statement.
Originally by: "EULA" EULA
C. Compliance with Rules of Conduct You agree to observe and abide by the Rules of Conduct as may be amended by CCP from time to time. The current version of the Rules of Conduct may be viewed at http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp, and are incorporated in the EULA by reference.
Originally by: "TOS" Terms of Service
22 You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
Are you condoning the exploitation of bugs that was done before this news item was posted?
If you do, then consider me shocked |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:23:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Jamie Hara Are you condoning the exploitation of bugs that was done before this news item was posted?
It wasn't an exploit until a GM declared it an exploit. That's the whole point.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Dilligaf Really
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:32:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil lulz.
Point of clarification on something please. What can players who have lost things through use of this exploit expect, in terms of reimbursement?
nothing as usual?
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Dilligaf Really
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:34:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 09/12/2007 21:14:54 Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 09/12/2007 21:06:16
Originally by: GM Grimmi
EDIT: Clarification: Abusing the current POS warfare mechanics after the posting of the news item is considered an exploit. Those that participated in POS warfare prior to the news item will have nothing to fear.
It is common knowledge that benefiting from exploiting a known bug is against the EULA and bannable without further warnings. So why the change of policy now to let off those exploiting this for that last two days ? It not like this exploit was unknown. Cheating is Cheating and the exploitors should be made an example of and banned. If you don't ban these exploitors you are sending the message play by the rules and get shafted, cheat and get away with it.
sorry but when did CCP start playing by the rules? Their history doesnt support such an idea....
THEY CHEATED AT THEIR OWN GAME.... MORE THAN ONCE and NOW yer suprised????
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Sentinel Eeex
Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:38:00 -
[216]
CCP's QA department:
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:53:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: F'nog I gotta disagree with you there, Nyph. The old adage goes: "If it's too good to be true, it's probably an exploit."
The problem with that is where the line is drawn. At what point does something become "obviously" an exploit. For example, shooting at a POS that didn't fire back is not unheard of. The guns could be misconfigured in the management panel, couldn't they? And what if you kill an NPC BS and get 4% sec increase instead of 0.4%? Is that obviously an exploit or might you think it's intended?
The problem is that you'd be banning someone over their interpretation of some game mechanic. With the variety of players we have in eve from different countries and backgrounds, you can't just assume that all of them will instinctively know when a game mechanic is broken. Hell, I think webbing a ship that's aligned but not up to speed to make it instawarp is a bit broken but it's not officially an exploit and lots of people use it. If they decided tomorrow to make this an exploit, should I be banned for using it yesterday?
The only clear-cut way to make sure people are intentionally breaking the rules is to tell them it's against the rules and see if they continue to do it. For example, if you jettison 100 shuttles outside a station by accident, you will not be banned. Instead, if someone petitions, a GM will warn you not to do it again and only if you disobey the GM by doing it again will you be punished.
I sort of agree with you here.
If you did this one or two times before the announcement, I don't think anything should be done against you. But after that many times you should begin to wonder if something isn't wrong.
Yes, there have been problems with guns not firing back, but this is a rare occurrence. You can only do it so many times before you say, "Hey this is too good to be true!"
After a couple attempts the logical among us will wonder: "hey, something doesn't seem right." They will probably stop.
My only concern is with those who seem to be taking advantage of this. They are smart players who should now that taking out dozens, or even several POSes without losses is not right. If they continued to do this, even before the warning was given, they should face penalties, possibly even permabans.
I'd hope that after almost 4 years we could have learned something from the Zombie incident. They were banned because they didn't listen to a GM, yes, but they should have realized they were doing something wrong. Fine, they destroyed a few ships and were punished. But they knew that they were taking advantage of the game mechanics. This example is fixed in stone as a marker for what is and is not intended game play. Does everyone who plays Eve continuously need to be shone a proof that 1+1=2, or do we need to start taking it as a given?
Now we've moved into something much greater. All of Eve could have been effected by this bug. If T2 and other market prices suddenly sky-rocket, we know why it will have happened (hey future perfect!).
Those who have repeatedly (and this is the key) taken advantage of this should face punishment. If they've reached the state where they can take on POSes, many multiples of times, then they should know that things aren't working properly and stopped.
As we say where I'm from, "Ignorance is no excuse."
The EULA should be upheld, and those who grossly exploit these bugs should be punished. Those who happen to have made a mistake or two should be warned that it shouldn't be done again, as the message states.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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barvo
7th Space Cavalry SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:53:00 -
[218]
Edited by: barvo on 10/12/2007 00:56:17 Edited by: barvo on 10/12/2007 00:54:39 This whole "one minute it's fine, the next minute you're banned" is totally, utterly, f*****g r******d.
It's like POS bowling. Squads were out roaming around desperately trying to take advantage of these "issues" (exploits/bugs/features) before CCP went "*sigh* Alright, al-RIGHT!" and waved the banhammer around menacingly. Everyone knew it was too good to last, and CCP's incompetence in not dealing with it as soon as it was brought to light is yet another failure.
What this means is, after every patch, there's going to be gangs of people logging in and trying to abuse every bug that they found while testing on SISI, instead of reporting those bugs to CCP for them to be fixed. CCP's attitude in this ENCOURAGES people to hide the exploits they find on SISI and use them to gain advantage on Tranquility. CCP shows the agility of a medium sized iceberg and fails to respond for 3 days or whatever, god knows how much isk has been burned in that time.
The encouragement should be for reporting bugs, not for hiding them and using them when the patch goes live. Perhaps (shoot me down, it's only a suggestion) people should be rewarded for finding and reporting valid bugs on SISI? Like, 100mill isk for the first to report a bug? I dunno, I'm just trying to offer a suggestion to make it more beneficial to report the bug than to hide it and exploit it.
This doesn't take away the fact that Arkanon should be investigating the Q&A team, tbh, but perhaps there's something to be done about SISI. After all, it wasn't put there for people to play in pimped ships, it's there for testing.
Disclaimer: my corp (and to the best of my knowledge my alliance) has not lost any POS during this issue, and we turned down the opportunity to hit a POS after the patch date.
Edit - obscenities and stuff. Sorry, but you need to understand how stupid you have been, CCP.
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Dilligaf Really
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:56:00 -
[219]
Originally by: barvo
What this means is, after every patch, there's going to be gangs of people logging in and trying to abuse every bug that they found while testing on SISI, instead of reporting those bugs to CCP for them to be fixed....
Yes thats whats gonna happen.... its kinda BEEN happening on the quiet for a long long time and now, other ppl are figuring it out.
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Wodanonline
The Last Resort.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:23:00 -
[220]
there should be a *hint* here
doesnt a dread in siege mode with 0 rof affect something else then poses to ;)
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Richard Aiel
Caldari DEATHFUNK Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:38:00 -
[221]
lol the next news announcement:
"The use of Dreads has been deemed bannable till we fix what we did wrong"
Originally by: Tarminic FAIL
There is nothing wrong with suicide ganking, carrying around 400 million ISK in a 1 million ISK hauler is absolutely idiotic.
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Popsikle
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:42:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
By far Trinity is the most bugged patch they've ever put out, and actually is probably on par with some of the SWG patches we used to have, that's not really a good thing.
LOL, no its not. you should have been here waaaay back in the day, some of those patches were unplayable for a week or more. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime. |
Popsikle
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.10 01:47:00 -
[223]
Edited by: Popsikle on 10/12/2007 01:48:14
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
By far Trinity is the most bugged patch they've ever put out, and actually is probably on par with some of the SWG patches we used to have, that's not really a good thing.
LOL, no its not. you should have been here waaaay back in the day, some of those patches were unplayable for a week or more.
Originally by: ElCoCo Edited by: ElCoCo on 10/12/2007 00:09:05 Ppl abusing this until the announcement have nothing to fear? Not even a warning? You guys are so f'in weak.
So people repeatedly using the infamous 0 rof dread lulz and repeatedly attack POS's in ways (with caps and cynojammer present) that would otherwise be impossible are off the hook?
Don't you realise that these are the kinds of ppl that will rush to exploit the next loophole/bug/whatever you're going to introduce?
I agree, let the bans be retroactive!
/me waves goodbye to goons capital fleet! ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime. |
F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.10 02:01:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Dilligaf Really
Originally by: barvo
What this means is, after every patch, there's going to be gangs of people logging in and trying to abuse every bug that they found while testing on SISI, instead of reporting those bugs to CCP for them to be fixed....
Yes thats whats gonna happen.... its kinda BEEN happening on the quiet for a long long time and now, other ppl are figuring it out.
Except that, as stated repeatedly above, this wasn't something people learned from Sisi. This is brand new to Tranq, yet they're still taking advantage of it.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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Dilligaf Really
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Posted - 2007.12.10 02:09:00 -
[225]
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Dilligaf Really
Originally by: barvo
What this means is, after every patch, there's going to be gangs of people logging in and trying to abuse every bug that they found while testing on SISI, instead of reporting those bugs to CCP for them to be fixed....
Yes thats whats gonna happen.... its kinda BEEN happening on the quiet for a long long time and now, other ppl are figuring it out.
Except that, as stated repeatedly above, this wasn't something people learned from Sisi. This is brand new to Tranq, yet they're still taking advantage of it.
No this isnt new... its new that the general public is doing it yes, but Ive heard of certain corps taking training time on sisi just to get down all the new loopholes and tweaks there are in the new content too many times to just ignore it out of hand
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Herring
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.12.10 02:36:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Xirxo Seriously, people complaining here need to play a SOE game.
Then you'd see what true fail is. And not just once in awhile. EVERY patch you'd get to experience it like a (very) broken record.
I don't really think it's necessary to put players through that kind of punishment just to prove a point. But for the record, yeah, SOE game experiences after a patch are far, far worse than any ccp patch I've ever seen.
CCP - please stop with the nerfing and boost something already. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.10 02:48:00 -
[227]
Originally by: F'nog I'd hope that after almost 4 years we could have learned something from the Zombie incident.
Ah but even the Zombies weren't permabanned. They got temp bans, as I recall, because they should have known better. But of course they didn't stop when GMs asked them to, did they? Disobeying a GM and committing an exploit that has never officially been deemed an exploit are two different things. Someone shooting a POS after the announcement did the former and someone shooting one before the announcement did the latter. The former is the only one that will involk serious punishment because it shows informed intent to break the rules.
Taking advantage of things that seem too good to be true is what eve is all about, it does not show intent to break the game's rules.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Mistae
Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.12.10 03:12:00 -
[228]
GM said "I am fairly certain that we can agree that gains against your enemies are hollow if they are achieved through a fault in the system rather than your own prowess."
Might be true of other MMORPGs, might be true of a majority of EVE players; but there is a very sizeable minority that it is definately not true of.
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Duke Grail
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.10 03:29:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Duke Grail on 10/12/2007 03:30:12
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: ElCoCo
Ppl abusing this until the announcement have nothing to fear? Not even a warning? You guys are so f'in weak.
So people repeatedly using the infamous 0 rof dread lulz and repeatedly attack POS's in ways (with caps and cynojammer present) that would otherwise be impossible are off the hook?
Don't you realise that these are the kinds of ppl that will rush to exploit the next loophole/bug/whatever you're going to introduce?
I agree, let the bans be retroactive!
/me waves goodbye to goons capital fleet!
Dear Troll, i don't actually think we attacked anyone using dreads (at least i didn't). We had been planning on doing something this weekend but that got the axe from CCP.
We havn't actually had to deploy caps to shot pos in a while.
Keep posting though, it's making you look smarter. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.12.10 03:40:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Popsikle Edited by: Popsikle on 10/12/2007 01:48:14By far Trinity is the most bugged patch they've ever put out, and actually is probably on par with some of the SWG patches we used to have, that's not really a good thing
Hmm, it's more 'stable' than some older patches (that used to crash regularly), but it has broken far far more things that used to work, maybe only because they have more things now and they changed alot more, and they're better at 'stability' testing, but not so much at 'what did we break' testing.
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Crux Australis
MotorSaikol LadrUNZ Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.10 04:19:00 -
[231]
This is your occasion ccp, don't let it slip !
Delete all the goddamn p.o.****e from the game once and forever.
Station ping-pong was 1000000 better, at least it brought pew-pew and not zzz-snore.
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.10 04:37:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: F'nog I'd hope that after almost 4 years we could have learned something from the Zombie incident.
Ah but even the Zombies weren't permabanned. They got temp bans, as I recall, because they should have known better. But of course they didn't stop when GMs asked them to, did they? Disobeying a GM and committing an exploit that has never officially been deemed an exploit are two different things. Someone shooting a POS after the announcement did the former and someone shooting one before the announcement did the latter. The former is the only one that will involk serious punishment because it shows informed intent to break the rules.
Taking advantage of things that seem too good to be true is what eve is all about, it does not show intent to break the game's rules.
Yes, but the post says they'll get warnings, not even temp bans.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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Angelus Damelon
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.10 04:49:00 -
[233]
that's some top-notch quality assurance there lou
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Lusian
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Posted - 2007.12.10 05:09:00 -
[234]
Well a good wway to do this would to make all pos invulnerable till what ever needs to be fixed is fixed.
Why cant things ever be done simply.
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Miner Nine
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Posted - 2007.12.10 05:20:00 -
[235]
Echoing the "STOP PLAYING THE GAME, WE BROKE IT! STOP IT OR WE'LL BAN YOU, BUT KEEP SENDING US MONEY!" For the 3 accounts I pay for.
Anyone wanna play tic-tac-toe on MSN?
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Aprudenb Gist
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Posted - 2007.12.10 06:26:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Miner Nine Echoing the "STOP PLAYING THE GAME, WE BROKE IT! STOP IT OR WE'LL BAN YOU, BUT KEEP SENDING US MONEY!" For the 3 accounts I pay for.
Anyone wanna play tic-tac-toe on MSN?
just cancel the subscriptions like did.
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Spacebux
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Posted - 2007.12.10 07:13:00 -
[237]
Oh well at least there is now a solution to the 0.0 low-end mining problem, if 0 RoF dreads equipped with mining lasers can now potentially clear entire belts in minutes. |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 07:21:00 -
[238]
Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 10/12/2007 07:23:08 CCP should use this as an opportunity to remove pos's entirely...
Then maybe pvp can be about the fights again
Also stealing from pos's and the nubcakes in them isnt out right? Even if the pos doesnt shoot at you now?
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 08:17:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Spacebux Oh well at least there is now a solution to the 0.0 low-end mining problem, if 0 RoF dreads equipped with mining lasers can now potentially clear entire belts in minutes.
Chribba must love this bug.
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onymous
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.10 08:28:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Spacebux Oh well at least there is now a solution to the 0.0 low-end mining problem, if 0 RoF dreads equipped with mining lasers can now potentially clear entire belts in minutes.
I haven't tested this personally but I have been told this won't work. I also don't mine, but apparently mining lasers are fundamentally different from turrets/bays; they don't really "fire" so much as they are either on or off, so rate of fire is meaningless.
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