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Laser Thorax better than Laser Omen?

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Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:20:00 - [61] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/01/2008 15:20:40 Originally by: Meridius Dex Johnny, are you stalking me? It's funny, but I posted this same fact about a week ago: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=685012&page=3#86 I originally cross-trained to Gallente to rat Guristas in zero sec in a (pre-nerf) Mrymidon. Not only did I realize it outclassed pretty much everything in the Amarr line (post-nerf, it has been balanced), but that it could both gank and dual-rep active tank with total cap stability. As an Amarrian, I can only imagine what actual cap stability must be like. Imagine flying a ship without requiring at least 2-3 slots for cap modules... it's like a wonderful dream... Imagine my even greater surprise to find that I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better better cap stability than either an Omen or Maller. That's just.. sad. Yeah, Amarr have no issues. Right. CCP employees that put abominations like pre nerf myrmidon and eos into the game should be fired. Either they have an iq of a monkey or they havent looked at a single figure about the ship nor tested anything about it or compared it to the other races ships. Why do we want a nerf on overpowered gallente cruisers now instead of a boost to the other ones? Because we all know Boost Patch is going to be a joke so we'll just trust in the nerf power of ccp instead because it has already done something (the 2 ships mentioned above) to balance issues. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:44:00 - [62] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Why do we want a nerf on overpowered gallente cruisers now instead of a boost to the other ones? Because we all know Boost Patch is going to be a joke so we'll just trust in the nerf power of ccp instead because it has already done something (the 2 ships mentioned above) to balance issues. LOL. The Thorax does not need a nerf. Since it's quite balanced with the Rupture, really, in realistic combat situations (and not EFT whoring). Furthermore, the cruisers are quite in line with bigger ships/etc, so. It's the Moa and the Maller which need love. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Josh Causto Gallente Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:16:00 - [63] People still fly t1 cruisers? Originally by: Speed Devil Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Everytime you fit anything other than a laser on our ships, babies die. and when ya fit lasers on your ships nothing dies
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:18:00 - [64] Edited by: Lili Lu on 27/01/2008 16:20:18 Originally by: Meridius Dex Johnny, are you stalking me? It's funny, but I posted this same fact about a week ago: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=685012&page=3#86 I originally cross-trained to Gallente to rat Guristas in zero sec in a (pre-nerf) Mrymidon. Not only did I realize it outclassed pretty much everything in the Amarr line (post-nerf, it has been balanced), but that it could both gank and dual-rep active tank with total cap stability. As an Amarrian, I can only imagine what actual cap stability must be like. Imagine flying a ship without requiring at least 2-3 slots for cap modules... it's like a wonderful dream... Imagine my even greater surprise to find that I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better better cap stability than either an Omen or Maller. That's just.. sad. Yeah, Amarr have no issues. Right. Very well stated (Dex's sig also states the general propostion quite well). And to go off on a similar tangent, let's not forget powergrid: I have a gallente alt. That toon has not even begun training awu, but he can fit 7 425 on a hyperion plus a reasonable level 4 mission tank with only one power diagnostic. My amarr toon needed awu3 or 4 to fit 7 tachs and similar tank with one pdu on an abaddon. Speaking from experience, no EFT comparison there. Some folks may not like JoJo's methods and delivery, but underlying his complaints are some valid points. Amarr laser ships have serious problems. And I do fly other races, and they are on the whole much better options than amarr, which is sad because i like lasers and gold hulls for a spaceship game, .
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:19:00 - [65] Originally by: Cpt Branko It's the Moa and the Maller which need love. Uhm you dont think omen needs love? LoL Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:20:00 - [66] Originally by: Josh Causto People still fly t1 cruisers? I would if they wouldnt suck. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:37:00 - [67] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Cpt Branko It's the Moa and the Maller which need love. Uhm you dont think omen needs love? LoL It does, but the reply was directed at people discussing Tier 3 cruiser balance. All the Tier 2 ones barring the Vexor are considerably inferior to their Tier 3 counterparts, and while Omen does needs a bit of love, it should not match the Maller/Moa/Thorax/Rupture in a slugfest. Originally by: Josh Causto People still fly t1 cruisers? Yes, lol, of course. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:20:00 - [68] I used to hope jonny jojo would die of aids. But that would require him getting laid, and nice things shouldnt be wished on worthless people. So cancer. Anyway, yes the Thorax fit with SNOWBALL LAUNCHERS is a better ship than the Omen. Everyone knows the Omen is worthless, and the Rax is one of the best designed cruisers in the game. You didnt need to make a thread about it, it's not a revalation. Even zulupark likely knows the omen is not fine, and he cant tell highslots from too much beer.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:33:00 - [69] Just because of this topic I'm going to lowsec in laser thoraxes when I get the skill up. AWESOME: --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:37:00 - [70] Originally by: Julius Romanus I used to hope jonny jojo would die of aids. But that would require him getting laid, and nice things shouldnt be wished on worthless people. So cancer. That just goes a bit TOO far dont you think? Even i, Jonny-hater dont say that kind of stuff... *Warning! Sig ahead!* Bounty: Jonny JoJo
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:41:00 - [71] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 27/01/2008 13:02:49 I dont think some people are seeing the point Jonnys trying to make, A conventionally fit Thorax is obviously superior to the laser fit version posted here and that's the issue here, And that superiority is 100% based on an EFT (and comedy fit) DPS number and on comparing a tier 2 to a tier 3 cruiser. The fact that this flawed, flawed argument actually arrives at the right conclusion (aka the Omen sucks) does not justify anything. The fact that Jonny brings up a valid issue is more a case of a thousand monkeys humping a thousand typewriters than anything else. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:48:00 - [72] Originally by: Ogul tier This argument is'nt particulary valid at this point. It's already stated that laser maller is still pretty inferior compared to a laser thorax. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:53:00 - [73] Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Ogul tier This argument is'nt particulary valid at this point. It's already stated that laser maller is still pretty inferior compared to a laser thorax. And we could make the same argument about sticking the Moa full of heavy neutrons and comparing it to the Maller fitted with the same weapons (and more of it) - guess what, the Maller would come out on top. And THAT wouldn't be a balance issue either. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:58:00 - [74] Originally by: Ogul blaster Maller vs blaster moa Have you even tried? Blaster moa is'nt so incredibly crap as some people think, actually. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:58:00 - [75] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/01/2008 17:59:09 Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Ogul tier This argument is'nt particulary valid at this point. It's already stated that laser maller is still pretty inferior compared to a laser thorax. Not really. While laser Thorax DOES do more DPS (464 vs 306) it has doubly less effective HP (10240 vs 19913) with both ships using Navy Multifreq, two heatsink IIs, heavy pulse IIs and 400mm RT plates with the appropriate number of fitting modules. Comedy EFT fits ftw! Also, Maller can fire pernamently. Basically, a laser Thorax WILL die to a laser Maller ;) Yes, of course, the Omen/Maller/Moa (and to a certain extent, Caracal, since it can't fit HAMs sensibly, and Stabber has too few slots to compete with any of these cruisers) need some loving. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:01:00 - [76] Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Ogul blaster Maller vs blaster moa Have you even tried? Blaster moa is'nt so incredibly crap as some people think, actually. The blaster Maller will still do more dps, which - following the arguments in this thread - makes it the better ship. Period. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:07:00 - [77] Originally by: Ogul The blaster Maller will still do more dps, which - following the arguments in this thread - makes it the better ship. Period. But then the previous posts were about lasers, where thoraxes does'nt get any bonuses. The maller has only a cap reduction bonus for lasers. So they're equal regarding tracking and optimal if they fit the same turrets and crystal(plus thorax has drones). While here, the moa gets slight optimal range bonus (better than nothing). Did you count that in too? --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:38:00 - [78] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/01/2008 18:40:13 Originally by: Ogul Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Ogul blaster Maller vs blaster moa Have you even tried? Blaster moa is'nt so incredibly crap as some people think, actually. The blaster Maller will still do more dps, which - following the arguments in this thread - makes it the better ship. Period. No it will not. The Blaster Moa will do more DPS than a Blaster Maller. A maller does 401 DPS with 5 Heavy Neutron Blasters and 3 MFS[it also runs out of CPU and powergrid and fits literally no tank]. A Moa does 412 dps with 5 heavy electron blasters, 2 Ham launchers, 3 Hobgoblins, and 3 MFS. 412>401. Ergo a blaster moa does more dps than a Blaster Maller. The Moa also has 19,950 EHP, goes 1472m/s, has a web and a scram tanks 31 dps passivly, and its cap lasts for 7 minutes with the MWD off. [Moa, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hobgoblin II x3 A Maller, now looking at a maller that actually fits, cannot use 5 Heavy Neutron Blasters even with AWU 5 without implants[runs out of PG]. A Maller, fit as such still doesnt freaking fit due to CPU, it is 7 CPU short. Is slower, less damaging[376 dps], less versitily, less agility, its cap lasts less time[6 minutes 40 seconds vs 7 minutes 30 seconds], with about 12% more EHP[22.5k EHP vs 19.5k EHP], but remember, this doesnt fit with a web without sacrificing even more DPS, or even more EHP, making the ship worse in every single way imaginable than a Blaster Moa. [Maller, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Internal Force Field Array I Adaptive Nano Plating II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Prohibitor I [empty med slot] Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] The Maller is the worst cruiser in the game hands down. The Omen is the second worst cruiser in the game hands down. Johnny Jojo might be an *******, but he is right on this, Amarr cruisers suck. They suck with lasers, they suck without lasers, they just pretty much suck in general. The arbitrator being the one exception, and even then, its not all that great once you get down to brass tacks about it with its only real strength being versitility brought on by its huge drone bay[where it is inferior to a vexor in pretty much all other matters.
Mascia	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:19:00 - [79] Let's compare it to a ship of the same tier, ie the maller [Maller, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Inhibitor I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Medium YF-12a Smartbomb Only 246 dps, but the maller has 2k more effective hps, and could have a lot more if set up with more of a tank. It also has a smartbomb which will take care of those nasty drones, not that uncommon a choice since the nos nerf. The maller lasts longer if you just pulse the smartbomb, and it actually gains cap if you turn off the mwd unlike the thorax that is still losing cap. Finally it's worth noting that only Electron's would fit on the thorax with that build, which give it a whopping increase to 424 dps with faction ammo. So basically the Thorax gains nothing by switching to blasters as far as dps is concerned. Could Amarr frigates and cruisers use a little work? Sure, but it's not as bad as some people lead you to believe. Sadly if you switch to autocannons the maller gains dps and does even better with cap: [Maller, New Setup 1] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Inhibitor I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Plasma Smartbomb II This gives it 4400 more effective hp's than the thorax and 270 dps and it's cap lasts a full minute longer than the thorax if both have the mwd on.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Goumindong Amarr cruisers suck. They suck with lasers, they suck without lasers, they just pretty much suck in general. This. Well, OK, barring the Arbitrator, Amarr cruisers quite suck. Especially and particularly the Maller, but the Omen is quite bad as well. I'd sooner have a Omen in gang then a Maller, since at least it can be fit to be more mobile and take advantage of its range (although, really, all Tier 2 combat cruisers except the Vexor aren't very stellar anyway). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Pan Zhu'Liang	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:32:00 - [81] given that the cost to fly is pretty much the same for a battlecruiser as a tech 1 cruiser (since using decent modules will overshadow ship cost with insurance factored in), i don't think this is such a huge balance issue for the game overall. i'd personally be more interested in seeing tier 1 battlecrusiers other than the brutix be made more useful.
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:33:00 - [82] Yes a laser rax is better than a laser anything amarr cruiser. This is not so hot news anymore. To compensate, fit the omen with three webbers.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:35:00 - [83] Originally by: Lili Lu Very well stated (Dex's sig also states the general propostion quite well). And to go off on a similar tangent, let's not forget powergrid: I have a gallente alt. That toon has not even begun training awu, but he can fit 7 425 on a hyperion plus a reasonable level 4 mission tank with only one power diagnostic. My amarr toon needed awu3 or 4 to fit 7 tachs and similar tank with one pdu on an abaddon. Speaking from experience, no EFT comparison there. Hybrid equivalent of Tachs would be 500mm rails or something. You should be comparing 425s to Beams. And Beams both outdamage and outtrack Rails. Shooting at Guristas (or Angels) with lasers, now that's silly, but it has little to do with this thread. Whatever problem there is with Amarr, it isn't at the Battleship level, except maybe the prevalence of eanm tanks, which is universal and not a fault of Amarr.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:43:00 - [84] Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang given that the cost to fly is pretty much the same for a battlecruiser as a tech 1 cruiser (since using decent modules will overshadow ship cost with insurance factored in), i don't think this is such a huge balance issue for the game overall. i'd personally be more interested in seeing tier 1 battlecrusiers other than the brutix be made more useful. It is the best situation if all ships in all classes are useful. Clearly, there will be some which are better and some which are worse, but they have to have performance close to each other; at different things, with different advantages and disadvantages. Take Tier-2 BCs; they're a example of a well-balanced ship class. Currently, in Tier-1 BC comparisons, we have the preety awesome Brutix, then the Cyclone with is preety good (but not really as good as the Brutix; I'm fine with it though, I personally use it), and the Prophecy which is bad and Ferox which is plain horrible. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:51:00 - [85] where is my amarr oomph that was promised CCP? 2,5 years and counting!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:01:00 - [86] Originally by: Malken where is my amarr oomph that was promised CCP? 2,5 years and counting! Its not coming, its like a friggin mirage just like the boost patch. Its just never going to happen. Instead they nerfed nos, bye bye pilgrim and they also nerfed TDs for being overpowered. Idiots. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:05:00 - [87] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Malken where is my amarr oomph that was promised CCP? 2,5 years and counting! Its not coming, its like a friggin mirage just like the boost patch. Its just never going to happen. Instead they nerfed nos, bye bye pilgrim and they also nerfed TDs for being overpowered. Idiots. I thought oomph was the sound of an Amarr pilot being kicked in the ribs while he's down? -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:08:00 - [88] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Malken where is my amarr oomph that was promised CCP? 2,5 years and counting! Its not coming, its like a friggin mirage just like the boost patch. Its just never going to happen. Instead they nerfed nos, bye bye pilgrim and they also nerfed TDs for being overpowered. Idiots. I thought oomph was the sound of an Amarr pilot being kicked in the ribs while he's down? -Liang No its the sound of our capacitors hitting 0 cap while using our racial guns Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Kel Dario Amarr Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:15:00 - [89] Jonny JoJo may be considered a annoying troll but he do have some points. Hovewer nerfing another races ships to empower Amarr isn't a good idea. Then Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar would have to be nerfed a lot to make Amarr look good, and in the end it would make the game less fun for everyone. Another reason I don't want the other races nerfed is because I fly them myself with other characters. Especially Gallante/Minmatar. They rock /Kel
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:19:00 - [90] Originally by: Kel Dario Jonny JoJo may be considered a annoying troll but he do have some points. Hovewer nerfing another races ships to empower Amarr isn't a good idea. Then Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar would have to be nerfed a lot to make Amarr look good, and in the end it would make the game less fun for everyone. Another reason I don't want the other races nerfed is because I fly them myself with other characters. Especially Gallante/Minmatar. They rock /Kel Isnt game balance relative? I really dont understand this logic. I mean if one race A does 200 dps and race B does 300 dps and race C does 100 dps. Does it matter if A and B get nerfed down to 100 or if race C and A get boosted up to 300? No it doesnt and obviously ccp has no clue about buffing because oomph hasnt been seen around for 2,5 years but we sure have seen the nerf bat smack gallente in the face twice recently. So yeah what can we do, if not to hope for a nerf atleast... Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II

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