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Laser Thorax better than Laser Omen?

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Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:15:00 - [121] As much as I hate the OP poster, it doesn't change the fact that he is claiming in this thread. Basicly said amarr t1 cruisers suck. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
August Personage Caldari Clarf Inc	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:22:00 - [122] Originally by: Shevar Basicly said amarr t1 cruisers suck. apart from the arb
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:50:00 - [123] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Let's see. We have here an Omen: 5% ROF bonus with 4 turrets = 4 * 1.33 = 5.32 turret total, then we have a thorax with 5 unbonused lasers. So the thorax just by design leads by 0.32 turret DPS and you count in the drones also. And you complain about Thorax DPS being better thant Omen DPS ? ARE YOU SANE ??? I mean how can you cry when you do such a biased comparison ? Wake up and have a look at the ships !!! Just use simple math on the turret hardpoint number with bonuses applied AND FACTOR IN THE DRONEBAY DIFFERENCE !!!! (I did some EFT comparing. you can use an AB and Heavy Pulse II, there's anough range for this to work). The point is that an amarr player might have trained up T2 lasers and then can only train up gallente cruiser for 2 days and get into a thorax and do more damage then in an omen. Thats fail. Omen is a piece of crap and so is the maller and other ships. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:03:00 - [124] Originally by: August Personage Originally by: Shevar Basicly said amarr t1 cruisers suck. apart from the arb The arb isn't total fail like the omen or maller, but quite frankly it doesn't fit in the top4 cruisers in my opinion. -Thorax -Vexor -Rupture -Blackbird Are all better for PvP in my opinion. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:05:00 - [125] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Let's see. We have here an Omen: 5% ROF bonus with 4 turrets = 4 * 1.33 = 5.32 turret total, then we have a thorax with 5 unbonused lasers. So the thorax just by design leads by 0.32 turret DPS and you count in the drones also. And you complain about Thorax DPS being better thant Omen DPS ? ARE YOU SANE ??? I mean how can you cry when you do such a biased comparison ? Wake up and have a look at the ships !!! Just use simple math on the turret hardpoint number with bonuses applied AND FACTOR IN THE DRONEBAY DIFFERENCE !!!! (I did some EFT comparing. you can use an AB and Heavy Pulse II, there's anough range for this to work). Are you ********? Since drones dont matter in comparisons according to you, all gallente ships should have 0 m3 drone bay and all amarr ships should get 5000000 m3 and bandwidth. I think it would be balanced because drones dont matter obviously.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:05:00 - [126] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/01/2008 13:08:05 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The point is that an amarr player might have trained up T2 lasers and then can only train up gallente cruiser for 2 days and get into a thorax and do more damage then in an omen. Thats fail. You are fail. Quoted numbers are all L5. All L5 in a Thorax involves: Scout Drone OP V Drones V Drone interfacing V Gallente drone spec V ...etc... to get the DPS listed. It is hardly two days. Drones V takes 5-6 days. If you train the Thorax for 2 days and jump in it (and you already have T2 lasers), you're going to fail in comparison really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:08:00 - [127] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The point is that an amarr player might have trained up T2 lasers and then can only train up gallente cruiser for 2 days and get into a thorax and do more damage then in an omen. Thats fail. You are fail. Quoted numbers are all L5. All L5 in a Thorax involves: Scout Drone OP V Drones V Drone interfacing V ...etc... to get the DPS listed. So what? I have scout drone op 5, drone 5, DI 5, combat drone op 5, drone spec 4, and I bet lots and lots of people in eve does as well. If you want to start using imperfect skills, then how about the fact that cruiser 5 matters a helluva lot more for the omen than it does for the thorax?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:13:00 - [128] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/01/2008 13:08:05 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The point is that an amarr player might have trained up T2 lasers and then can only train up gallente cruiser for 2 days and get into a thorax and do more damage then in an omen. Thats fail. You are fail. Quoted numbers are all L5. All L5 in a Thorax involves: Scout Drone OP V Drones V Drone interfacing V Gallente drone spec V ...etc... to get the DPS listed. It is hardly two days. Drones V takes 5-6 days. If you train the Thorax for 2 days and jump in it (and you already have T2 lasers), you're going to fail in comparison really. Uhm you dont need all lvl 5 to be out dps'ing an omen in a thorax...in fact you can look at this any way you like and there is nothing the omen will do better. Let me get this straight. Youre saying that a new amarr player that has T2 mediums and basic drone skills that go with that will do more damage in an omen then in a laser thorax? Is this what youre saying? Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:13:00 - [129] Originally by: Gamesguy So what? I have scout drone op 5, drone 5, DI 5, combat drone op 5, drone spec 4, and I bet lots and lots of people in eve does as well. Yes, but Lyria said specifically it's 'oh, train Rax for two days, jump in, do better', which is simply untrue. Originally by: Gamesguy If you want to start using imperfect skills, then how about the fact that cruiser 5 matters a helluva lot more for the omen than it does for the thorax? Well, true. I find the Thorax deals with low skills much better then other cruisers. I honestly consider the Rupture a somewhat better ship at high skills (T2 guns with spec IV, high gunnery support skills, cruiser at at least IV) then the Thorax - it simply benefits much more from the Cruiser skill due to having a double damage bonus. At lower skills though, the Thorax is definitely better. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:19:00 - [130] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Gamesguy So what? I have scout drone op 5, drone 5, DI 5, combat drone op 5, drone spec 4, and I bet lots and lots of people in eve does as well. Yes, but Lyria said specifically it's 'oh, train Rax for two days, jump in, do better', which is simply untrue. Yes but amarr needs drone skills as well. Arbitrator is a drone cruiser, all the amarr BS and espcially BC as well as their t2 lineup have heavy drone focus. Geddon only shines due to the 5 heavy drones, same goes for the harbinger(meds), and obviously there are the amarr drone recons, etc. Amarr is the 2nd drone race, its reasonable to expect good drone skills. And its not like hybrid takes more SP than lasers or something, so for a similar amount of SP, a gallente and amarr character would have equal gunnery and drone skills.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:31:00 - [131] Originally by: Gamesguy Yes but amarr needs drone skills as well. Arbitrator is a drone cruiser, all the amarr BS and espcially BC as well as their t2 lineup have heavy drone focus. Geddon only shines due to the 5 heavy drones, same goes for the harbinger(meds), and obviously there are the amarr drone recons, etc. Admittedly, all races need drone skills ;) However, many will spec in their T2 primary weapon system/gunnery before they get drone skills, and Amarr turret cruisers plus the Prophecy (in short, Amarr bad ships) do not require drone skills that much. Since I believe Lyria was making a point about a relatively new Amarr pilot who has T2 lasers jumping in a Rax in two days, the point is relatively valid. If you have good drone and all around skills, you can jump in a Arbitrator anyway and do better then jumping in a laser-rax (lol!). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
I Believe DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:40:00 - [132] Jonny is either the most insistent troll or one of the worst mentally challenged people I've ever seen, don't know which, don't really care. Remember people, don't feed the trolls.
Kastar Paragon Horizons Intergalactic Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:03:00 - [133] Edited by: Kastar on 28/01/2008 14:02:56 I find this a very difficult discussion. The omen isn't the same tier cruiser as the thorax, so evidently the dmg output of the rax is or should be higher. Whether that ought to be with the same type of guns or not is a point I'm not starting at. As for the Maller being not on par with the rax ... well what can I say. Even when the rax could wield 5 heavy drones, a lot of people flew a maller. It's all a bout flavours and personal taste. People fly this or that, regardless of the capabilities. I'm amarr to the bone. Hell I won't fly a rax even if it outdamages a maller 3:1. why ? very simple. the occasion in which you'd encounter a rax in a maller in a pvp setting with no other ships around is close to inexistant. You could as well fly a pink bicycle with a US flag to it. It wouldn't make a difference. even if all ships become on par... some would still be slightly stronger, after which people will still whine. That being said... I'm so gonna try a thorax with lasers :) -----------------------------------------------
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:14:00 - [134] All of this discussion has been focusing on the DPS of Amarr cruisers and a laser-fitted Thorax but we seem to be forgetting something. How do the tanks on Amarr cruisers compare to said laser-fitted Thorax? The Maller's 5% armor resists per level probably help it out compared to the Thorax; my gut says that Amarr would make better buffer tanks (assuming that they have enough grid for plates, which they may not) while Gallente would be able to field better active tanks (less cap issues), but having not flown Amarr cruisers I don't know. Hence, the question. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Dark Solaris	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:17:00 - [135] "The Gallenteans are not alone in their Federation, whose boundaries are home to pockets of residents, varying in size and representing all the other races of EVE, most of whom left their own empires due to political or ideological differences, or simply in search of peace and prosperity. In addition to these there are two human races, the Intakis and the Mannars, both of whom the Gallenteans found while exploring and expanding their empire. Both were at a very primitive level when the Gallenteans found them, but since coming under the protection and guidance of the Gallenteans, both races have flourished and are today a full-fledged members of the Federation." - Gallentean History Archives "In recent years, however, the Amarrians have begun to run into serious opposition. First, they met the Gallente Federation. Although much smaller than the Amarr Empire, the Amarrians soon found the economic and military might of the Gallenteans a match for their own... Since these fateful events almost two centuries ago, the Amarrians have learned restraint. They have slowed down their expansion and are less forceful in their dealings with other races, but still view themselves as the most powerful race in EVE, if only because of their sheer numbers." - Amarrian History Archives Just read and think and you will know the answer for all the above questions. If you complain that Amarr is weak, so play Gallente. Otherwise, just accept the fact and keep going. Maybe a change in history course will make it different. Anyway, your ship is not the only factor that makes you strong.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:35:00 - [136] Originally by: Bronson Hughes All of this discussion has been focusing on the DPS of Amarr cruisers and a laser-fitted Thorax but we seem to be forgetting something. How do the tanks on Amarr cruisers compare to said laser-fitted Thorax? The Maller's 5% armor resists per level probably help it out compared to the Thorax; my gut says that Amarr would make better buffer tanks (assuming that they have enough grid for plates, which they may not) while Gallente would be able to field better active tanks (less cap issues), but having not flown Amarr cruisers I don't know. Hence, the question. Tanks on cruisers are meh. Most cruisers except the maller will do poof under fire anyway and the original post was complaining about how bad the omen sucked. How about you compare tank with omen k? Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:41:00 - [137] Omen is of course a horrible cruiser. On the other hand if you decide to fly one then don't fit it in such a crappy way! Here are some setups which outperform your setup. 4 x focused med t2, 1 x assault missile launcher named mwd, x5 web, 20km scram 800mm RT, dcu2, adaptive nano plating 2, small rep 2, heat sink 2 Theoretical max of 313 dps with faction ammo and waaay better tank. You can also ditch the rep and fit another heatsink to still have better tank + more dmg than your setup. And if you're gonna fit a suicidal omen then how about: 4 x heavy pulse, arbalest rocket launcher mwd, x5 web, named sb rcu 2, 400mm RT, dcu2, 2 x hs 2 Fits with cheap cpu imp. Otherwise downgrade dcu to named one or ditch the launcher. 401 dps with faction ammo and guess what? STILL better tank than your setup. And this only took 5minutes. So either you're trying to make omen look even worse than it is (hardly possible but still...) or you just don't have a clue how to fit ships.
Commander Awkward	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:43:00 - [138] Originally by: I Believe Jonny is either the most insistent troll or one of the worst mentally challenged people I've ever seen, don't know which, don't really care. Remember people, don't feed the trolls. In defense of our friend Jonny; he stopped posting somewhere in page 2. After that all the other forum warriors rushed in to scavenge their piece of this thread before it decayes too much.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:59:00 - [139] Originally by: Gamesguy all gallente ships should have 0 m3 drone bay Even if Gallente ships suddenly lost their drone bays over night they would still be some of the most powerful ships in the game, like I said before they took already decent ships and then added humongous drone bays on them.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:02:00 - [140] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Tanks on cruisers are meh. Most cruisers except the maller will do poof under fire anyway and the original post was complaining about how bad the omen sucked. How about you compare tank with omen k? Yeah. Because Tier 2 to Tier 3 cruiser comparisons are valid. The Thorax outdamages my Stabber when using autocannons on both, too! You have to look at sensible fits you would use in PvP and compare them, taking into account flying styles and playing to the ship's advantages. If we just do a EFT number crunch, the Stabber is quite certainly the worst crusier in the entire game, and we all know it's not that bad, but you cannot fly it like a Thorax/Rupture/Maller/Moa/Vexor and expect to live. Exageratting to prove your point doesn't make you right, it makes you a troll. Do the Omen/Maller have issues? Yes, I think we all realise they do have some issues. Are they as horrible as you make them? No. Should the Omen murder a Thorax in the Thorax's optimal? Definitely not. It shouldn't, in fact, even stand much of a chance versus it. Why? To illustrate, let's dig up another cruiser which is inferior to the Thorax when both are using its racial guns - namely, the Stabber. It is in the same EFT situation (lol!) as the Omen, since the AC Thorax outdamages it. Therefore, EFT say it must suck and needs a boost. Now, ignoring EFT arguments for a moment and assuming it was massively boosted (because of EFT says so jerks), think of the awesome ownage a Stabber would be in real PvP if it actually had a chance versus a Thorax at close-range and retained its current abilities? It would be the prime PvP cruiser, bar none. To fly anything except a Stabber boosted to that standard would be sheer idiocy. If we balance out the raw EFT DPS/tank numbers, we completely break ships like the Thorax which need their superiority at point-blank range. Trolling ships & modules with 'omg, lazorz Thorax does better' is neither constructive nor convincing, because people could counter-troll that, well, 'omg, AK Thorax does better then my Stabber, waaa' and prove it in EFT. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:29:00 - [141] Stabber has speed - omen pilots could only dream of 3,5 km/s. And eft shows speed btw If for example omen has stabber bonus to speed instead of laser cap usage? If thorax has blaster cap reduction bonus instead of mwd cap reduction? Or if maller has 50mb brandwich? Anyway - here is amarr thread.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:37:00 - [142] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Tanks on cruisers are meh. Most cruisers except the maller will do poof under fire anyway and the original post was complaining about how bad the omen sucked. How about you compare tank with omen k? Yeah. Because Tier 2 to Tier 3 cruiser comparisons are valid. The Thorax outdamages my Stabber when using autocannons on both, too! You have to look at sensible fits you would use in PvP and compare them, taking into account flying styles and playing to the ship's advantages. If we just do a EFT number crunch, the Stabber is quite certainly the worst crusier in the entire game, and we all know it's not that bad, but you cannot fly it like a Thorax/Rupture/Maller/Moa/Vexor and expect to live. Exageratting to prove your point doesn't make you right, it makes you a troll. Do the Omen/Maller have issues? Yes, I think we all realise they do have some issues. Are they as horrible as you make them? No. Should the Omen murder a Thorax in the Thorax's optimal? Definitely not. It shouldn't, in fact, even stand much of a chance versus it. Why? To illustrate, let's dig up another cruiser which is inferior to the Thorax when both are using its racial guns - namely, the Stabber. It is in the same EFT situation (lol!) as the Omen, since the AC Thorax outdamages it. Therefore, EFT say it must suck and needs a boost. Now, ignoring EFT arguments for a moment and assuming it was massively boosted (because of EFT says so jerks), think of the awesome ownage a Stabber would be in real PvP if it actually had a chance versus a Thorax at close-range and retained its current abilities? It would be the prime PvP cruiser, bar none. To fly anything except a Stabber boosted to that standard would be sheer idiocy. If we balance out the raw EFT DPS/tank numbers, we completely break ships like the Thorax which need their superiority at point-blank range. Trolling ships & modules with 'omg, lazorz Thorax does better' is neither constructive nor convincing, because people could counter-troll that, well, 'omg, AK Thorax does better then my Stabber, waaa' and prove it in EFT. my god you managed to post all that and still fail to see the real point here, the issue is not about which EFT fits are the best its about how you can completely lol fit certain ships and still have the potential to outclass the ships that are completely crap. If you fit those lol fit ships properly the situation is even worse.
Gold Rogers Solitude Empires United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:07:00 - [143] Hardly a fair comparison since the Omen has a 15m3 drone bay and 1 launcher hardpoint which Jonny JoJo failed to mention. And please don't say he's only comparing laser damage since he gave the Thorax it's drones. ---------
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:15:00 - [144] Originally by: Gold Rogers Hardly a fair comparison since the Omen has a 15m3 drone bay and 1 launcher hardpoint which Jonny JoJo failed to mention. And please don't say he's only comparing laser damage since he gave the Thorax it's drones. He included the 3 x hobgoblin on the dps for the omen. I checked that. He ignored the launcher slot though and also went to some lengths to make the omen look extra-crappy i.e. by not fitting a 800mm plate and purposely wasting cpu etc. etc. See my post a few above this one.
master mikester Gallente The Sons of Lucifer Black Sheep Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:59:00 - [145] anyone noticed that jonny hasnt replied to defend his very very very (very) low level of pride take into account the ship bonuses people! oh btw jonny, used right any ship can beat any ship also in response to...i cant remember who, "make lasers do not mostly em damage" or something, im not going against you or anything but i would have thought that lasers would do more thermal damage? i mean it would make sense but... maybe jonny posts these to get attention...but he gets it in a bad way cos these posts get like the most replies --------------signature------------------------ Those who show profit will pull through in the end. "Those who fear darkness, have never seen what the light can do" selenia- dark angel
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:00:00 - [146] Amarr T1 cruisers just need a little more grid and CPU. As of now, in a Maller, you will either be: 1. Moderate Tackler with moderate tank, NEUT, moderate mwd speed, low-moderate dps (needs one photonic cpu enhancer). or: 2. BEST cruiser tanker with some sniping ability (moderate dps for sniping), but no tackling. (Hence the AB fitting and may need a RCU) It depends on what role you want it to be, it has the best unplated tank and an excellent battle-cruiser class plated tank. As for the omen, it definately needs more grid/cpu. As of now, if you sneeze on it, it will die, and it has crappy dps and 2nd best speed. So it has no advantages. The maller is just barely acceptable because it is capable of being a tackler with a good enough tank to last a little bit longer for your gangmates to gank the target (ok dps with Quad light beams II). Im able to wipe the floor with any stabber in my maller in the tackling setup. Because of the lack of grid and cpu, you cant put ALL T2 items on your setup. For instance, if you fit T2 quad light beams you can only fit a T1 nuet and you may need a Photonic CPU if you use 2 EANM II and 2 HS II's. But, if you use t1 beams and t1 eanm and t1 burner/or mwd, you may be able to fit a heavy plate instead . This makes things less expensive anyways... so meh...if you die, the enemies will be very dissapointed with their loot!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:46:00 - [147] Originally by: Commander Awkward In defense of our friend Jonny; he stopped posting somewhere in page 2. After that all the other forum warriors rushed in to scavenge their piece of this thread before it decayes too much. If there was a way to find out I would be willing to bet he took another less than voluntary vacation from the forums. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:16:00 - [148] Quote: Yeah. Because Tier 2 to Tier 3 cruiser comparisons are valid. When comparing the same "type" of ships, I believe it is valid. Omen is Amarr's DPS cruiser, while Thorax is the same on Gallente end. If you're saying that no tier 2 ship should ever outclass a tier 3 ship even when the tier 3 ship has a complete lol fit then I think there is something wrong with you. There are other cases of tier 2 being better than tier 3 at specific elements. Take a look at geddon vs abaddon, geddon does more damage and it's a tier 1 battleship compared to abaddon's tier 3, by you're reasoning such a thing shouldn't be allowed. In this case I think it's not so much a laser issue but a failure in design for the cruisers. The omen lacks appropriate fitting to even be able to get a decent fit with focused pulses. It should be able to fit a full rack of them without issues, maybe struggling a bit to fit heavy pulses. It needs that launcher slot turned into another turret and it's bonus changed from RoF to damage, I realise that means less damage boost but it saves a good deal of cap and with only 3 meds not being able to field a injector this is important. Not so sure on the maller. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Moe Zus Caldari Resource Reallocators Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:47:00 - [149] Theres only one reason to fly Amarr, and that is for the lulz. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:01:00 - [150] Originally by: Jonny JoJo [...] Valid complaint in some ways, but the Omen isn't supposed to be a DPS machine while the Thorax is. I think most of the problems with such comparisons come from the fact that Drone DPS on non-Droneships is too high. It makes no sense to add 100-150 DPS on most T1 Cruisers with the Drone bay, Drones were supposed to be useful for fighting smaller opponents and not to buff up DPS by 20-30%. Fix: reduce Drone DPS by 50% and increase the Droneship DPS bonus to 20% per level. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...

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