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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Viashivan
Dark Centuri Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:28:00 -
[301]
While this nerf is not a bad idea, I don't see it fixing the major problems with amarr. Its just one reason more to fit 2 eanm and a dc.
But if this change is for the boost patch, I'm really anxious about the other boosts.
Via
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:29:00 -
[302]
well you are changing the base resists of EVERY ship in the game so ammar could do abit more damage fine by me I will starts stocking up on faction EMP ammo.
PS: zulupark if this go through I will forgive you for the unnecessary dictor speed nerf |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:41:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm well you are changing the base resists of EVERY ship in the game so ammar could do abit more damage fine by me I will starts stocking up on faction EMP ammo.
PS: zulupark if this go through I will forgive you for the unnecessary dictor speed nerf
yay CCP fixed Amarr by making PROJECTILES on Amarr ships EVEN more attractive! lol time to fit autocannons!
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:42:00 -
[304]
I fully intended to read thru this thread from beginning to end, but the colossal amount of whine and asshattery has stopped me. Reading thru the first 10 pages, I've noticed a few things.
1. Very few people bothered to read the Dev Blog. They saw "reduced resistances" and went haywire, crying "NERF!!" or "WTF about the ships>????". Bloody idiots.
2. Most people are incapable of understanding that this is a TEST! TEST to see if it works. Nothing is final. The ships WILL get looked at.
I'm honestly disappointed. The EVE community seemed like a more mature one than most MMOGs, but apparently not. You're just a bunch of spoilt kids.
Kiddies: "Waaaah! Boost us! NERF THEM! WAAAAAH!" CCP: "Right, so we'll look into this. Try this out and see how it works. We'll look at the ships soon." Kiddies: "WTF! OMG U NREFED RES!!??! WTF CCP U SUXX! WAHT BOUT THE SHIPS WTF??! WAAAAAAAAH!" CCP: "... Look, we said try it out. It's not done yet. Try it, and we ARE looking at the ships." Kiddies: "OMGWFT!!!" *wrists*
Seriously...are you capable of anything but a massive whine?
Originally by: "GM Tacgnol" Oveur descended from the heavens (also known as the second floor) and beat us all with his nerfbat.
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Druadan
Institute of Fungineering
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:42:00 -
[305]
Jesus H. Christ this is just... what!?
This is not a step in the right direction. This is not a good start.
This is one step in the right direction, and three steps in the wrong direction. This is one good start, and three awful.
There are two primary problems with Amarr:
- Their primary damage type is the most resisted
- They have the most ships that have serious fitting problems.
The latter is the biggest problem as it renders many of their ships unreasonable choices. So look at those ships and fix them. You broke the Pilgrim and, to a lesser extent, the Curse, so fix those. Then look at the Zealot's lack of DPS and fix that. There are a few of their ships that could use an additional midslot, as has been mentioned in this thread. Look into all of this before you completely change an aspect of the game without giving thought to the knock-on effects.
-Dru
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:48:00 -
[306]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 31/01/2008 08:49:09
Originally by: Ancy Denaries I am a troll
said the troll, either you are blind or you cant see that the problem was not the EM resistance but the fitting/cap problems.
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ZerKar
Caldari Zen'Tar
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:51:00 -
[307]
Considering that Shield Tankers are already worthless in PvP and by extention Caldari ships are next to pointless to fly in PvP unless you attempt to Armor Tank them which will now be even harder I do not see a reason you need to touch Shield Tankers at all. They are already at an immense disadvantage of not being able to fit MWD, Sensor Boosters, Webs, and Warp Jammers while still having any tank at all. They do not have a Passive Omni Tank option like Armor Tankers do and so their Shield Boosters end up eating their Cap much faster than Armor Repairers do and if they fit a Cap Booster then they have lost even MORE tank.
So the Explosive Damage Resist for Shields part is really just an unneeded additional nerf to Shield Tankers that should be thrown right out.
Even the Damage Bonus against Armor Tankers from the EM Damage is not that useful to Amarr in general. Missiles and Drones will be more likely to see the full benefit of that change as well as Minmatar EM Ammunition.
What the Amarr REALLY need is stronger Capaciters and weaker Fitting Requirements for their Lasers so that they can fit some Damage Mods and run their Tanks for more than 5 Seconds while shooting.
Caldari aside, I have no trouble fitting up my Maelstrom with the best Big Guns and a full Tank ontop of it, but the Amarr struggle badly to fit their supposedly superior ships. I mean they have been at making these things the longest, I would think they would know how to make really good Capacitors to facilitate the use of their Lasers and keep their Reppers running long and hard.
I know this is just in testing but please reconsider how you are going about this buff to Amarr because it does not really address their needs as much as it sounds like it should while at the same time it weakens the already horribly nerfed Caldari and the Minmatar Shield Tanks. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...!
O.o |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:53:00 -
[308]
Edited by: Minerva Vulcan on 31/01/2008 08:54:21 Remind me how removing shield explosive resists is helping Amarr?
Originally by: Zulupark This may seem drastic, but we've given it a lot of thought.
False. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Saosuke
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Posted - 2008.01.31 08:54:00 -
[309]
please CCP do not do this. All ur doing is boosting minmattar nerfing caldari, gallente and amarr because u also reduce the armor resists. sure amarr will do more dps but minmatar will pwn ALL with EMP.
how about u just change the amount of cap that is needed to fire those lasers. in my opinion amarr BS's are really not bad but they do run out of cap after a minute of shooting which totally sucks specially for fleets. go ahead with these changes but before doing so please turn all my amarr skillpoints into minmatar ones. TYVM.
I almost forgot one thing. What was the HP boost all about a few months back if ur just going to nerf resists now???? What was all that stuff u said before about wanting fights to last longer.??????
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:00:00 -
[310]
Theres nothing wrong with lasers, by themselves. There is nothing wrong with amarr ships, by themselves.
The problem comes from the fact that:
1. Many Amarr ships are better off using projectiles than lasers. 2. Non amarr ships are sometimes better at using lasers than amarr ships 3. Amarr lack damage from lasers not because the resist, but because they have to waste slots fitting things just to make the lasers USABLE, on top of running out of cap too fast. For the few seconds the lasers are working right things are golden.
A buff to lasers does not address this, because the problem is a relative one.
Give all amarr ships a built in bonus that lowers the CPU and PG cost of fitting laser weapons by a small amount, and lowers the cap use of firing them by a large amount. Not a fake replacement bonus that some currently get for laser cap use, but a role bonus, as an amarr ship you get to not suck with lasers. Replace those current lower cap use bonuses with real ones like +damage or +rof, or even +range or tracking (this is intended not specifically to bring out much more damage, but just to make it 'better' than fitting an auto cannon - by mixing up the bonuses you replace the current lower cap cost of laser fire you can further flesh out and specialize the amarr ships and give them their own niches).
All this current buff does is make the laser thorax even more viable=p What needs to happen is lasers need to become more attractive to amarr ships and actually fit. Not that lasers need to become better across the board for everyone, and not that em ammo needs to become awesome for attacking armor.
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ZerKar
Caldari Zen'Tar
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:02:00 -
[311]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Amarr are the only race to have to train another race to pvp.
*gestures you over to her* Want to say that to my Face? EXCUSE ME? The Amarr are the only ones who have to cross train huh? I guess that explains that ship bay full of Minmatar Ships I own, oh and all those Minmatar Blueprints. Riiight, think again. If the Caldari and the Amarr have a similarity it is that we both suck big time, but for different reasons and ours are worse. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...!
O.o |
Madelchai
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:04:00 -
[312]
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
Originally by: Elmicker Perhaps it's time to directly address the mechanics that're broken? You know, like, switching em/therm around and lowering cap use?
I think it's general consensus that one of the underlying problems for Amarr is that base EM resistances are too high. As I said, we're not adverse to more changes but we want to see how these changes pan out before we commit to doing even more changes.
Hi!
I enjoy playing EVE.
Perhaps sometime you can play too!
What was the point of the HP buff in Revelations if you're going to nerf resistances now?
Someone... anyone... Bueller? ------ Revolution. The only solution. |
Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:11:00 -
[313]
Hmm, having both a pure Ammar and a split Minmatar/Caldari character all I can say is Time for some testing I guess
I think it is good that you are working on making Ammar more competetive in PvP.
But in all honnesty a race that uses weapons that only uses the two damage forms that all races have the highest recistance against, be it on shields or armor can never be fully competative. Unless they manage to find a way to make them selfs less cap dependent.
------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
ExcellciuM
Exair Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:12:00 -
[314]
Can we request to change the title to:
Zulupark Fails Again and similar words.
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Lucius Flaccus
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:13:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Edited by: Minerva Vulcan on 31/01/2008 08:56:57 Remind me how removing shield explosive resists is helping Amarr?
Its helping Amarr because it allows for the EM damage to come down. The devs have obviously decided a certain ratio between the strengths of armor/shield tanking have to be maintained. I'd like to point out here the sheer obviousness that changing an aspect of one form of tanking will affect the viability of the other form of tanking.
Furthermore, the explosive resists have not been removed per se. I'd offer up the term 'reduced'.
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ExcellciuM
Exair Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:15:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Lucius Flaccus
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Edited by: Minerva Vulcan on 31/01/2008 08:56:57 Remind me how removing shield explosive resists is helping Amarr?
Its helping Amarr because it allows for the EM damage to come down. The devs have obviously decided a certain ratio between the strengths of armor/shield tanking have to be maintained. I'd like to point out here the sheer obviousness that changing an aspect of one form of tanking will affect the viability of the other form of tanking.
Furthermore, the explosive resists have not been removed per se. I'd offer up the term 'reduced'.
Sheilds already have 10 points less resistances than armour so it damages shield tanks even more.
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Gozmoth
Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:18:00 -
[317]
Thanks for the blog.
Please do not forget another problem : tracking disruption being the weakest form of ewar !
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CCP Zulupark
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:37:00 -
[318]
Ok, back up. Now to answer some questions:
Quote:
Here's something I've never understood. Why does armor have 20% extra resists on baseline T1 compared to shields?
Shields compensate for armor extra resistances by always having a natural recharge rate.
Quote:
This is a stealth Minmatar boost!
This change boosts EM damage, no matter what faction is using it. Some Gallente ships get damage bonuses to EM drones, some Caldari ships get bonuses to EM missiles etc.
Quote:
What about the ships?
We're working on a devblog about ship changes that we've been playing around with and will post it soon (hopefully before the weekend)
Quote:
You're nerfing shield tankers!
I don't see we're nerfing anyone over anyone else. We've simply re-balanced a basic part of the game and the effects of that will touch on all ships in EVE.
Quote:
This isn't the Amarr boost you promised!
This is a part of it. There are also some ship changes to come and a boost to the Amarr Ewar has also been formed. We'll post about that as soon as possible.
We don't want to change too much, we understand people also want cap use reduction and less powergrid requirements and we're not saying that won't happen. Just that we don't want to do everything at the same time.
That said, I urge you all to go on SISI, test the changes out for yourselves. Please keep posting comments and ideas :)
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Merfio
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:40:00 -
[319]
Edited by: Merfio on 31/01/2008 09:40:51 Lulz, everyone was crying for an Amaar Boost. Now it isnt needed anymore or it just should be affecting PVE? The people get what they deservere. Its a whining nightmare.....
As said above, plz consider the NPC changes.
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:41:00 -
[320]
Yet your too scread to make any decent changes, this change is quite small if you look at the big picture of the problem with amarr
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Lucius Flaccus
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:44:00 -
[321]
Originally by: ExcellciuM
Sheilds already have 10 points less resistances than armour so it damages shield tanks even more.
Not necessarily. It depends on the actual resistance before/after. Going by the devblog, they've just taken a straight 10% off the base resist in many cases. So going from 60% down to 50% is a lot different to going from say 90% down to 80% (see Zealot explosive in the devblog).
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Karjala Inc. Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:46:00 -
[322]
This whole thing just makes shield tanking even worse, especially for caldari who have 0 EM resist on any ship. Doesn't hurt minmatar so much since they have very good omnitank on shields by default on t2 ships...
Now the EMP ammo is quite much most effective ammo in pvp because no one is really focusing their resists on EM/EXP tanking. It's even worse for caldari when you have to start from 0 point base resist on EM so if you want to have even decent EM resist you have to use several EM resist modules. That means most of your other resistances will suck, especially explosive. This whole nerf would make shield tanking much more difficult than it already is.
And like said armor tank is better than shield tanking already in many ways, more than just having tackling modules in mid slots.
Most important is that reducing shield exp resist helps least amarr ships. And most minmatar who are shooting EMP and faction EMP and just moar EMP in pvp, not caring much of resists since they can just speed tank.
Like someone already said amarr problem never was damage or damage types. Just few particular ships and lack of some ships for roleplayer newbies who put civilian shield boosters on their ships, thinking it's good fit since it permaruns.
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Itcharo Wu
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:53:00 -
[323]
So in order to "fix" Amarr, you nerf everyone, including Amarr. What's the logic in that?
Yea I know, it's just part of the big picture and in the end we will have refurbished Amarr ships and the slavers will live happily ever after then. But before you do this, you stab everyone in the face with a pretty drastic nerf.
You know there are Amarr running missions in Amarr ships for the Amarr Navy? You know that common enemies in those missions are Blood Raiders and Sanshas, which deal EM/Therm damage? Those will get harder to tank then. Unless you are a Caldari and sit in your Raven, where this will not affect you.
Great job altogether.
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:53:00 -
[324]
This might solve the DPS issues, although i would have prefered a solution which tackled the cap issues and would actually give a decent second bonus.
That being said this change won't fix the following;
Every laser using t1 frigate will still suck.
Every laser using t1 cruiser will still suck.
Abbadon will still run out of cap within 20 seconds.
Apoc still doesn't have any role.
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
ExcellciuM
Exair Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:54:00 -
[325]
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Ok, back up. Now to answer some questions:
Quote:
Here's something I've never understood. Why does armor have 20% extra resists on baseline T1 compared to shields?
Shields compensate for armor extra resistances by always having a natural recharge rate.
What about in the situations when the shield recharge is so negligable a 10% extra resist would be better? The abilty to choose whether you would like either the resistances or the recharge might be something to think about. Im sure a story can be through up and it could be added.
Just as an example, imagine an active shield tank, or the tank of a carrier/dread, they have such a large amount of sheilds and low recharge rate, wouldn't the abilty to have an extra 10% resisatnaces benifit them more than say, 2 shield points per second?
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Hober Hardin
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Posted - 2008.01.31 09:59:00 -
[326]
Edited by: Hober Hardin on 31/01/2008 10:01:58
Quote: Remove 10% off the EM resistance on all Tech 1 ships and re-calculate the racial bonuses for the Tech 2 ships from there.
I'm a bit sceptical about this, it seems quite a sweeping change to apply this to all ships, changing the attributes of so many ships by what is quite a large amount is going to hit some ships hard.. ..take the Jaguar used in the blog example (Gloss over the fact its an Assault Frigate and pretty much useless anyway, you'll still get the point)
Jaguar base resistances
- Before changes Shields EM - 75%, Exp - 60%, Kin - 40%, Therm - 60% Armor EM - 92.5%, Exp - 10%, Kin - 25%, Therm - 67.5%
- After changes Shields EM - 75%, Exp - 50%, Kin - 40%, Therm - 60% Armor EM - 90%, Exp - 10%, Kin - 25%, Therm - 67.5
One of the most popular setups for this ship is to fit a passive shield tank based on a Medium Shield Extender or two.. ..reducing the explosive resistance by 10% has a quite a big effect on this, what was bearly a decent shield tank will be liable to break quicker and exposes paper thin armour which has a poultry 2.5% less EM resistance than currently.
I'm all for thinking up new setups, but this is a ship that has 4 Mid Slots and 3 Lows.. ..the passive tank setup was based on the high natural shield resistances, there isn't enough room on the ship to introduce a shield hardening module to cater for the change without making a change for the worse somewhere else.. ..with the base armour points, resistances and only 3 low slots theres little chance of fitting an armour tank, nor's there a chance of getting a decent speed or ew tank, so in all likelyhood pilots will end up fitting the same passive tank unable to do anything about the changes making a bearly passable shield tank even weaker.
So taking this into consideration this ends up as quite a nerf for the poor old Jaguar which isn't the best of ships anyway.. ..some ships are quite finely balanced, surely instead of sweeping changes across the board this should be based on reviewing and making changes to every ship individually?
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Charlie Seriya
Gallente Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.31 10:00:00 -
[327]
A good first step! I'm a little annoyed at some of the ungrateful responses, there's no question to my mind that this will help at least a bit, and I understand the need not to change too much at once. Keep up the good work!
Has low-slot propulsion jamming been considered to push shield tanking? Unfortunately a Warp Disruptor on every ship is considered mandetory in an awful lot of PVP. Lowslots have no such perceived mandetory use. 'Different' propulsion jamming might be viable, for example a warp disruptor with a long duration that affects you as well as your target, or a web with effectiveness linked to sig radius, etc.
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Mag's
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.01.31 10:10:00 -
[328]
So to boost Amarr, you double boost Minmatar?
I've looked at your numbers and the numbers of others and I fail to see how this 'Boost' helps. You've completely missed the issues suffered by Amarr and placed in a stealth 'Boost' nerf in your upcoming 'Boost' patch.
wow just wow.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.31 10:12:00 -
[329]
This:
Originally by: Takeshi Yamato The cap problem of lasers exists for these reasons:
- Hp was universally increased on all ships to prolong combat. Prolonged combat means more cap will be used, but there were no changes to laser cap usage.
- Rigs further increased combat duration, not everybody fits tanking rigs but on average ships are more durable since rigs have been introduced.
- Amarr ships tend to have a bigger capacitor than others, but the cap per second is exactly the same as everyone else. Since combat tends to last longer nowdays, the lasers drain so much that the any advantage is quickly gone and the total cap that was available to each pilot for the duration of the fight will be lowest for the amarr ship.
...and this:
Originally by: Eclip CAP use CAP use CAP use is all i really need to say. Amarr ships are good, they have damage and they can melt a shield tank like it wasnt there. even on armor they do good damage. but they cap out or run so low on cap that they cant active tank even for a little while so if ur getting shot at you have to switch off ur guns so ur cap ca be used for tanking. Give them slightly bigger capacitors as they are surpose to be the cap warfare race. hell increase capacity by 10-15% on BS's and 5-10% on cruisers and BC
...and I'm even agreeing with a goon:
Originally by: If you fix cap usage and fitting requirements, the rest of the problems address themselves. Some of the ships still suck, but those can be addressed later. The main problem is cap usage and fitting.
You're solving the wrong problem......
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Poister
Amarr THEM. Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2008.01.31 10:20:00 -
[330]
In order for these changes to be effective, my nice shiny Amarr ship needs enough PG to fit the lasers, sustainable cap to run the lasers and most importantly have the correct distance and tracking to actually hit the target.
Do you really think these changes will bring laser ships to frontline PvP ?
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