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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:30:00 -
[541]
Funny thing is, even on TQ, a Ex/Kn/Th active hardner + damage control T2 tank ends up with EM being the worst resist. I wonder how many people will switch to an EANM tank after this change and end up with MORE EM resist than they have now on live.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:44:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Funny thing is, even on TQ, a Ex/Kn/Th active hardner + damage control T2 tank ends up with EM being the worst resist. I wonder how many people will switch to an EANM tank after this change and end up with MORE EM resist than they have now on live.
No, its ex unless its an Amarran ship.
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Aidonis Heideran
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:44:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 31/01/2008 23:08:06 It's not as if there is anything particulaly wrong with Amarr damage if you actually spent the time to skill in the race. The problem is the broken ships and certain rediculous cap issues.
Anyone been back handed by an Abbadon or 'geddon recently and thought "Yo, Amarr damage is well rubbish" I dont think so.
Maybe resistences do need tweaking, my problem is selling this as 'fixing part of the amarr problem' when it really has little to do with it as its a blanket change on all ships.
Totally agreed.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:49:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Dlardrageth Edited by: Dlardrageth on 31/01/2008 21:01:38
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Obviously he's talking about tech1 ships.
Yeah, would be nice if he could be bothered to state it if he were. The statement (Yes, I fullquoted him) he did make paints a totally flawed picture of the effects of this... mhm... "idea".
Edit: A request to any moderator:
Can you pretty please change the title of this thread? Every time I read the "Some love for the Amarr" title I feel like ganking some random person due to the sheer absurdity of it. It's like someone at CCP tries to deliberately make fun at the expense of the Amarr part of the player base.
Amazingly, all but a select few seem to be able to understand what he was talking about perfectly well.
Hmmm... wonder why?
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Dlardrageth
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:53:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Aidonis Heideran
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 31/01/2008 23:08:06 It's not as if there is anything particulaly wrong with Amarr damage if you actually spent the time to skill in the race. The problem is the broken ships and certain rediculous cap issues.
Anyone been back handed by an Abbadon or 'geddon recently and thought "Yo, Amarr damage is well rubbish" I dont think so.
Maybe resistences do need tweaking, my problem is selling this as 'fixing part of the amarr problem' when it really has little to do with it as its a blanket change on all ships.
Totally agreed.
/signed
Well except for the part in the original quote about acquiring skills. I still do not think it has to be a prereq for Amarr only to acquire maxed cap-related, ship and weapon skills to make a ship work. When I can make another race's comparable ship work with half the SP investment.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:55:00 -
[546]
Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 31/01/2008 22:15:21 Yes, their time is up. And no, they dont do less dps, when you realize that kinetic dmg is the best against all t2 armor tanks.
No, its not.
The only t2 racial resist that doesnt hit kinetic is Minmitar. EM and EX both only have one racial resist that hits them.
This means that EM is the lowest or second lowset resist on the following racial ships
Amarr, Gallente, Caldari
And EX is the lowest or second lowest resist on the following racial ships
Gallente, Caldari, Minmitar.
Kin is the lowest or second lowest on
Amarr, Minmitar
Thermal is the lowest or second lowest on
Nothing
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Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:56:00 -
[547]
So motherships also got hit, as they are Tech1.
Just checked, and my EM went from 74.15625% down to 67.69531%
Another ham fisted nerf, to boost something which actually wasn't the issue. Nice work.
Regards. Rhadamantine. |
Aidonis Heideran
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Posted - 2008.01.31 23:58:00 -
[548]
Oes Noes, your "I Win" button got slightly de-buffed. Dude as long as you're careful (which you should be, this being EVE) and you don't fit it as a freakin Raven (like those EBayers) you'd be fine.
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Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:02:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Aidonis Heideran Oes Noes, your "I Win" button got slightly de-buffed. Dude as long as you're careful (which you should be, this being EVE) and you don't fit it as a freakin Raven (like those EBayers) you'd be fine.
This is an Alt, I wouldn't for one minute let you know my main, or which 'I-Win' Button I am using. (Which is a great joke btw ) But if you did have much of a clue, you would get an Idea from the stats, which mod has affected the EM.
Regards. Rhadamantine. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:03:00 -
[550]
This is a fairly interesting boost for amarr against capital armor tanks.
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El Alamein
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:04:00 -
[551]
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
Originally by: Elmicker
Hahaha, joke, right? Unless you have (contrary to the dev blog) changed fitting costs, it's still going to take 2-3x PG mods to get a decent fleet fit out of any one of the BSes. The tier 2 BS is still utter kack due to it only really having 1 bonus and no tank OR gank bonus. I could go on, but i'm not qualified to talk on amarr ships, i don't fly them often. I'll leave it to goumindong. He'll be along shortly.
You're talking about a very limited way of fitting a ship. Also, I said in the blog we were looking at some Amarr ships. There will be a blog shortly about how/what ships we've balanced.
Amarr needs a Fleet BS that isnt ******* gimped. every other race gets a tier 2 or 3 battleship that doesn't need 2-3 fitting mods or ancillary current routers to get a full rack of long range t2 guns.
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Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:05:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Goumindong This is a fairly interesting boost for amarr against capital armor tanks.
Damn..... but I thought everyone Omni tanked.
Regards. Rhadamantine. |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:17:00 -
[553]
Ok, I've slept this one over for a night and talked it over with my corp mates and we keep coming to the same conclusion. This nerf is bigger then the carrier nerf and very short term visioned. Now it's easy to say that without coming up with another solution which would indeed oompf Amarr.
The issue identified by CCP is that the amount of damage that originates from EM sourced weapons is absorbed too much.
An under lying issue is that armor tanks are preffered in PVP over shield tanks.
The reason behind armor tanks being favored over shield tanks lays in the fact that to fit the best shield tank you'll need to sacrifice ewar utility such as warp scramblers. Many people approach there ships as if they are goign to fly it solo even in fleets and therefor want at least one point onboard; doing such would require sacrificing defense so the choice falls to armor tanking over shield tanking (sensor boosters are another common reason to sacrifice tank).
The solution CCP came up with is to lower all base EM resists on armor and in order to maintain balance from a resistance point of view the same amount from shieldtanks.
The results of that approach are: 1. The solution is entirely focussed on pvp, however there are plenty of three way damage type NPCs in the game that are balanced around those resists being as they are. This solution 2. Special complexes such as DED and Exploration plexes have various EM traps in them which all in turn are very deadly allready and balanced on the very edge of what setups are able to deal with often even these are balanced in such a way that a logistic ship is taken into account with the amount of damage dealt (i.e. Thor torpedo's doing 180k base damage versus highest possible sig). These environments often deal at least two other damage types as well and in pletorea. 3. All ships will have an EM hole in their setups now, especially with untanked shields. Mathmatically EM allready was the best resist to do damage against, this is further increased. It will see an increase in EM weapon usage as is intended by the change on SISI. 4. Haulers and freighters and other ships that are untanked by nature of their role will become increasingly easy prey. 5. The proposed change will actually benefit Minmatar more then Amarr given the lower base explosive shield resist; thus reaching armor faster for armor tanks and vaporizing shields quicker due to lower maximum explosive resists. Gallente will feel the pain from this one particularly. 6. From a PVP perspective omni tanking is not just encouraged it is made into a cookie cutter must have fitting if you are going to tank, other forms of tanking combinations leave too big a hole even partial omni tank (with only one EANM or one Invul field) is not even viable anymore because it leaves a big hole. 7. Ships that can't fit dual rep, base resist mod, 2x eanm and a plate will be further driven into nano setups or not being flown in pvp at all anymore. 8. This what is promoted as a boost is nothing more then the biggest nerf to hit Eve by far. And your customers notice. Changing in this manor will drive customers away from your product how good your intentions may be. For a prime example see Dark Age of Camelot.
So is there another way to accomplish exactly the same thing but with the list of side effects listed above (some may be intended but those aside). There certainly is.
In one of your examples you said that the aim was to have a 25% damage increase from EM damage sources.
Then change the EM damage output of EM weapon sources by 25%, or just start off with Amarr, maybe by introducing a crystal that does pure EM damage but has 25% higer raw dps then a mixed damage type crystal.
By taking this approach you have a long term solution, a solution that you can prenerf and adjust as further needed and a solution that doesnt effect the entire balance of the game both NPC wise and PVP wise.
Make changes through love not nerfs!
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Aidonis Heideran
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:18:00 -
[554]
Haha Rhada I'm just being a jackass. But no worries eh?
@ El Alamein: Agreed. I've tried fitting fleet sniper remote repper BS's in-game and in EFT with all level V. (though admittedly never tried it with an Abaddon in-game) Compared to the other races it's a nightmare to even attempt it. (With setups of decent lowslot usage that isn't 50%+ directed towards PG boosting, i.e. with actual damage mods and tank mods that you're supposed to use, you're looking at about 6 guns, 7 if lucky, out of the total 8. Other races have much easier time, requiring 0-1 PG mods. And this is on an Apoc. Geddon doesn't even come close.)
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Aidonis Heideran
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:26:00 -
[555]
Nice summary DrAtomic. (Whines about you being a Phalanx member though) Then again, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sure CCP isn't my enemy, but this nerf takes them damn close. And the crystal thing might work, but I think fixing cap and PG (which possibly leads to freeing up bonus slots for many amarr ships, which can also be tended to) should be done first, with new ammo as a secondary option. Personally I don't think the problem is entirely DPS, but rather that to get the DPS we can't have gimped ships which aren't able to fit the required modules or use them effectively.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:41:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Aidonis Heideran Personally I don't think the problem is entirely DPS, but rather that to get the DPS we can't have gimped ships which aren't able to fit the required modules or use them effectively.
In all honesty I agree with you there; if they fixed fitting requirements and cap sustainability for Amarr then a lot of the Amarr issue is resolved. EM is allready the most gimped resist in most setups people fly. If you look on killboards you'll find lots of Amarr pilots on top as DPS dealers (that is net dps not raw dps) allready; their problem comes when handling multiple targets plus they often required a sacrifice to fit their weapons. The real question is however are they achieving those top dps dealer spots doing EM damage or through another damage type?
Basicly solution wise I went with CCP their assesment that not enough EM damage is coming through due to it being absorded too much but took an easier approach to solving that statement without unbalancing the grounds on which Eve was build both NPC and PVP wise.
Having slept the anger and frustration off for a night helped as well, can you imagine the flames a none dev would have gotten if he'd proposed this as a solution on the forums, that is if he would have gotten any attention at all. - - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:49:00 -
[557]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Then change the EM damage output of EM weapon sources by 25%, or just start off with Amarr, maybe by introducing a crystal that does pure EM damage but has 25% higer raw dps then a mixed damage type crystal.
As a Caldari pilot I resist this notion vehemently.
--- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
BishiBosh
Caldari MASS
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Posted - 2008.02.01 00:56:00 -
[558]
Edited by: BishiBosh on 01/02/2008 01:02:26 Edited by: BishiBosh on 01/02/2008 01:02:00 Edited by: BishiBosh on 01/02/2008 00:59:50 Edited by: BishiBosh on 01/02/2008 00:57:05 Hi zulu do u actually read this **** about what ur doin to the game and what the nerfs mean to mom pilots ? ... i aint a mom pilot but i do remember when they were scary and thats what moms were meant to be, so now u have nerfed them,,
and i know personally of 3 or 4 mom ship pilots that have said feck it im chucking eve and they have like 4 accounts each small peanuts to ccp but long term hardcore eve players who loved the game so much they left communitys which i know ,,which played other games and they left that to play eve and u have just killed the game for them ,
id like u to know this as ur doing stuff , and from what ive seen since u came along u dont know wtf ur doing >? ,,,, for all the other guys who wish to say can i have their stuff ,
feck off and grow up , zulu i hope u read this and understand what ur doin to the old school players which i know and are so disgusted they dont even want to post they have moms and are just chuckin the game ,
reason they aint postin is cos they cant be arsed listening to the ****s sayin can i have ur stuff ffs ,, so i thought i post on thier behalf ,
hope u read this cos u are feckin the game for lots of my friends , cos of ur nerfs u seem to have no idea what ur doing
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:10:00 -
[559]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Then change the EM damage output of EM weapon sources by 25%, or just start off with Amarr, maybe by introducing a crystal that does pure EM damage but has 25% higer raw dps then a mixed damage type crystal.
That works , or make a crystal that does primarily Thermal damage...
Hybrids have roughly 80-90% of the same cap usage as Energy weapons(counting the Amarr bonus) and have no choice for damage types either, and these hybrid weapons work amazingly well..
You are going about the situation in the wrong way... Most Amarr ships have 1 less true bonus per level with the cap usage bonus.. This is NOT an EM damage type issue this is a 'we need to make this gun worth the bonus' issue.
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Mag's
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:13:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Mag''s on 01/02/2008 01:13:37
Originally by: DrAtomic In all honesty I agree with you there; if they fixed fitting requirements and cap sustainability for Amarr then a lot of the Amarr issue is resolved. EM is allready the most gimped resist in most setups people fly. If you look on killboards you'll find lots of Amarr pilots on top as DPS dealers (that is net dps not raw dps) already; their problem comes when handling multiple targets plus they often required a sacrifice to fit their weapons. The real question is however are they achieving those top dps dealer spots doing EM damage or through another damage type?
Basicly solution wise I went with CCP their assesment that not enough EM damage is coming through due to it being absorded too much but took an easier approach to solving that statement without unbalancing the grounds on which Eve was build both NPC and PVP wise.
Having slept the anger and frustration off for a night helped as well, can you imagine the flames a none dev would have gotten if he'd proposed this as a solution on the forums, that is if he would have gotten any attention at all.
This is exactly why this nerfboost is a bad idea. It tackles a none issue, this seems to be a growing list from Zulu.
Most Armor tanks have EM as the lowest resist, the only real benefactor from this nerfboost is Minmatar.
Why not address the real issues with Amarr, instead of swinging that nut cr4cking sledgehammer on something that's not needed.
Cap problems. Fitting problems. etc etc
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
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Tessikhet
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:13:00 -
[561]
Let's play out a chain of logic.
Minmatar outdamage Amarr because, due to the wide use of omni-tanking setups, explosive damage is on the whole more effective than EM damage.
We will reduce EM resists on armor in order to increase the effectivness of EM damage relative to explosive damage.
EM and explosive damage now have parity.
The current (questionable) degree of balance between armor tanking and shield tanking setups has been disturbed. We must restore that balance.
We will reduce the explosive resist on shields in order to maintain the current balance between shield and armor tanking setups.
Explosive damage is now once more superior to EM damage. Buffs/Nerfs cancel out for no net change.
This is a waste of programmer time.
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Katana Seiko
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:17:00 -
[562]
Edited by: Katana Seiko on 01/02/2008 01:22:33 Well, give these Amarr a little love - but give their "i-win" button an other little *****: How comes Frequency Crystals don't break while in use? Only the advanced or faction ones tend to break... That's a little unfair towards the other races.
Hey, how comes the word c.rack gets censored? It's just an other word for a flaw in i.e. a crystal... Used like "fatigue *****", "***** initiation", "hairline *****"... Come on! --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you. |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:17:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Tessikhet Let's play out a chain of logic.
Minmatar outdamage Amarr because, due to the wide use of omni-tanking setups, explosive damage is on the whole more effective than EM damage.
We will reduce EM resists on armor in order to increase the effectivness of EM damage relative to explosive damage.
EM and explosive damage now have parity.
The current (questionable) degree of balance between armor tanking and shield tanking setups has been disturbed. We must restore that balance.
We will reduce the explosive resist on shields in order to maintain the current balance between shield and armor tanking setups.
Explosive damage is now once more superior to EM damage. Buffs/Nerfs cancel out for no net change.
This is a waste of programmer time.
No kidding.
Someone please explain to me again why they need to nerf shield tanking with this change?
I do not look forward to fighting minmatar with caldari after this.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
lt flaps
MASS
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:23:00 -
[564]
sucks! Nurf after nurf. Your alienating old schools players that bring new peeps to game like me and in turn my son and mates.
It sucks goal posts moved all the time what are nubbins like me meant to do as we aim for something then it gets nerfed.
Sort it out CCP.
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Aidonis Heideran
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:30:00 -
[565]
Actually for crystals, under the stats it also shows volatility and stuff the same as faction and T2, so they should break as well. Though, I have to say, no crystal has ever broken for me yet, T1 or otherwise (though admittedly I don't use faction/t2 extremely often)
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:48:00 -
[566]
Originally by: lt flaps sucks! Nurf after nurf. Your alienating old schools players that bring new peeps to game like me and in turn my son and mates.
It sucks goal posts moved all the time what are nubbins like me meant to do as we aim for something then it gets nerfed.
Sort it out CCP.
Play what you want to play. The nerf wagon keeps on rollin'. Besides, if you think this resist change is going to seriously affect anyones playstyle, think again.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:51:00 -
[567]
If CCP insists on changing armor and shield resists to rebalance things so Amarr are more competitive, then do it logically. First of all, shield resists do not need to be changed to accomodate Amarr. Amarr already melt shield tankers like buttah. The two lowest sheild resists are EM/Thermal, but everyone knows this already (except, apparently, Zulupark).
Caldari & Gallente - no change to base T1 armor resists. These two races are not part of the problem, and do not need to be part of any tank-resist solution.
Amarr - Right now they get a bonus to Explosive at the expense of Kinetic. Change this to a Bonus to Explosive at the expense of EM, and a bonus to Kinetic at the expense of Thermal. New armor resists: 50 EM, 20 Exp, 45 Kin, 25 Therm
Minmatar - Right now they get a bonus to EM at the expense of Kinetic. Change it to a bonus to Thermal at the expense of Kinetic. New armor resists: 60 EM, 10 Exp, 25 Kin, 45 Therm
This change allows Amarr to do more EM damage to two races, their own and Minmatar. It also makes more roleplaying sense. I think it also actually accomplishes what Zulupark thinks he wants to do with this change. -- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.02.01 01:54:00 -
[568]
Edited by: Vabjekf on 01/02/2008 01:55:26 I just want to hear someone say that this EM resist change will not be considered as part of the 'amarr fix' and will not make the devs think that after this just a few minor ship tweaks will be all thats required. Amarr damage has always been fine, its always been the fitting and cap issues that made them weak. Small changes to certain ships wont cut it, large, drastic changes to all (non khanid) ships is what is required. I don't really care if they want to rebalanced resists or whatever, i just don't want them to pay for it with amarrs saved up karma.
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.01 02:13:00 -
[569]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Besides, if you think this resist change is going to seriously affect anyones playstyle, think again.
One thing it will definitely do is reduce the number of 3 hardener fits in favour of eanm omnitanks. Reducing fitting options ftl.
--- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Thalagar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.01 02:33:00 -
[570]
Every Amarr pilot I've heard from seems to be saying they don't need more damage, they need more cap. So maybe instead of changing every ship in the game, CCP could just give Amarr ships more cap?
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