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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Triath Lon
Keepers of Balance Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:46:00 -
[61]
I fly Amarr and Minmatar ships and live in 0.0 space. Lately we've been taking out more and more Amarr hacs to deal with nanoishtars, while abaddons are rapidly gaining in numbers amongst our snipers. You know, introducing a little laser fire into those artillery barrages.
With these new changes our sniperddons just got a nice boost!
Now, i don't know what kinds of ship changes Zulupark has in mind, but so far - two thumbs up! Keep up the good work, and post this to TQ as soon as possible. ________
Ambassador Extraordinary Plenipotentiary |
x psy
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Elmicker The problem with EM damage being useless lies not in the racial armour resists, but in the fact 90% of pvp fits are armour tankers. You SHOULD be looking at the spread of utility modules across low/med slots. You should be encouraging people towards shield tanks, not just beating the entire game with a nerf bat as you have in your last couple of pathetic attempts at "fixing" what you see as broken.
I endorse this.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I just don't understand : You remove 10% to EM AND remove 10% to Exp. It's not an Amarr boost, it's an Amarr/Minnie boost, no ?
It's a nerf to everyone as EHP falls across the board, however this affects amarr the most significantly, as they're the most reliant on passive EHP tanks.
I don't know what EHP is, but my char shoot in Exp... So CCP gave me basically 10% more DPS on shields, I won't say no :) 2isk
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:56:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I don't know what EHP is, but my char shoot in Exp... So CCP gave me basically 10% more DPS on shields, I won't say no :)
I apologise. EHP is "Effective hitpoints". This is your hitpoints with resists applied.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:58:00 -
[65]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Wow. Not even close.
The general rule of MMO development that speaks about making changes (in particular), is that people will ask for changes which benefit them. If there's an issue with something and is acknowledged as being broken; players affected by it will demand a boost and players not affected by it will demand their stuff be left alone.
So you have both sides asking for a boost, when the better solution is to nerf. Nerfing itself is harder to do, because then you have both sides being unhappy. Any devs that take this path have balls, because they trust their judgment more than the biased drivel of players.
Usually, boosting creates short term satisfaction with long term damage and problems. All changes should be made with the long term in mind. If you think for even one second, that any race needs a blanket damage increase, you have no clue and should refrain from posting.
It depends on the problem. If the problem is that one thing is too strong, nerf it. If the problem is that one thing is too weak, you buff it. They key part is the "one thing".
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Ishan Mons
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:01:00 -
[66]
so lemme get this straight... Armor tankers are gonna take about 25% more EM damage, and Shield tankers are gonna take about 25% more Explosive damage... just to boost amarr
and yet there's no compensation for the lost resistances? if you really wanted to balance it out you could make it so armor tankers take 25% less explosive, and shield tankers take 25% less EM... that would basically just level out all resistances that way everyone's weapons would be good against everyone!
seriously tho, I thought the whole point of damage types was to make weapon types situational, lasers were good at ripping through shield tanks and great for 0.0 ratting against EM weak factions because of the almost non-existent ammo consumption.
you are basically homogenizing damage types which is totally weaksauce ------------------------ BOOST PATCH! BOOST PATCH! BOOST PATCH! BOOST PATCH! |
Pitbull1
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:02:00 -
[67]
seems like some good changes. keep up the work and i might even train for amarr myself
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:02:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 30/01/2008 19:02:56
Originally by: Elmicker I apologise. EHP is "Effective hitpoints". This is your hitpoints with resists applied.
Well they cut +/-/~5% in EHP then. That's not that much. The real problem is everybody shooting in Ki/Th. Today, somebody who focus on Ki/Th have no problem tanking 3/4 of Eve due to the server population :) 2isk
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Ritzenhoff
Gallente The Pink Hippo Riding Club
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:04:00 -
[69]
So I see how this boosts Amarr for PvP (the rights and wrongs of the methodology I will leave to others).
But with all ships getting a blanket decrease in resistances, this will be a nerf for PvE. I'll take more damage and missions get harder. Will NPC ships be getting a similar nerf to resistances? If this is the case then it'll balance out, otherwise there will be a few more ships lost in missions... though I suppose that's a boost for manufacturers
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:05:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Goumindong stuff
The problem with everything you say is that you think discrepancies with ships and modules is the problem, or the source of the problem. No, its a problem that exists in every race.
Tweaking one race does nothing in the long term. It is playing whack-a-mole with balance, and perpetuating FOTM. It is something that gets done, but it should NOT be the main priority after so many years.
What Zulupark is doing, is targeting issues that affect not only Amarr, but any race in a similar situation. The situation this blog is focusing on, is the one where your weapons and/or ships are completely impotent against another just because you happen to use the worst counter.
In general, its stupid to have the fight skewed so much in favour of one ship or race just because of uncontrollable base stats. I'm not advocating all ships be the same, but player skill and experience should determine the outcome of a fight first, and if its too close, then skillpoints and stats should play a deciding role.
If you feel its not fair for lasers to be completely impotent against omni armor tanks, then you must also agree that explosive should not be useless against omni shield tanks. The only reason we do not see as many complaints about the latter, is because shield tanks are less common, and Minmatar do not deal explosive damage exclusively, even if they are the explosive race.
Doing things this way is far more logical, and better for the long term. If you changed ships or weapons to a point where lasers are effective even against high EM resisted armor, then what is going to happen to effectiveness of shield tanking? You inadvertently entice even more people to stop using shields and switch to armor.
Do you want to be using Amarr in combat, where 90% of the time your guns are "meh, okay" because 90% of the time you're fighting other armor tankers - OR - do you want your guns to absolutely chew through the enemy in 50% of the engagements, because those are the times you're fighting a shield tanker? _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/ |
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:06:00 -
[71]
Something that keeps bothering me over and over again about this solution…
Changing the base resists on every single ship in the game effects every form of PVP AND PVE, it influences ALL other races choice of drones and missiles, and minmatars projectile ammo, it makes the second highest damage mod drones – explosive drones even more viable vs. all enemies, it makes explosive damage even more of the damage type of choice for all who can chose it, and it nerfs ALL T1 ships active armor tanks as EM will always be their lowest resist, it changes NPC tanking stats for both shield and armor tankers, while doing nothing to increase Amarr’s NPCing capability.
Is my thinking just paranoid or is this not basically reinventing the wheel because of one little rough patch of road?
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Disteeler
Segunda Fundacion
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:08:00 -
[72]
Lowering EM armor resistances coupled with raising EM shield resistances seems to me more reasonable and more into Occam's razor style. Maybe, of course :)
Sig by Black Necris |
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:10:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Rells on 30/01/2008 19:14:19 Dev Blog basically boils down to:
"We are going to give Minmatar, Missiles and Drones a HUGE BOOST. ...
oh and ya, we will thrwo a tiny bone to Amarr"
There is no assurance there will be an explosive crystal and this is a massive boost to non minmatar ships. Furthermore this is actually a NERF to the Amarr ships since explosive is their highest resist meaning that they can no longer tank as well as before against projectiles, missiles or drones.
Way to do .... well ... NERF Amarr through the backdoor again.
EDIT: The 25% increase in damage for EM is inconsequential to the 25% increase in damage for explosive. Explosive damage is already high due to across the board lower resists than EM. So you give Amarr a 25% bonus to 10 and explosive wielders a 25% bonus to 30 ? I wonder who comes out on top there.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Volucer S
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:18:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 30/01/2008 19:14:19 Dev Blog basically boils down to:
"We are going to give Drones a HUGE BOOST. ...
Drones got huge nerf, they dont restore shield in drone bay.
Boost Gallente!
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:19:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 30/01/2008 19:20:43
Originally by: Rells Dev Blog basically boils down to:
"We are going to give Minmatar, Missiles and Drones a HUGE BOOST. ...
oh and ya, we will thrwo a tiny bone to Amarr"
There is no assurance there will be an explosive crystal and this is a massive boost to non minmatar ships. Furthermore this is actually a NERF to the Amarr ships since explosive is their highest resist meaning that they can no longer tank as well as before against projectiles, missiles or drones.
Way to do .... well ... NERF Amarr through the backdoor again.
Not so simple.
T2 Tanks: Amarr - Where therm was the only big hole both EM and therm will need filling. Probably results in a higher EM res than before.
Gallente - Where exp was the only major hole, EM is now the lowest by like 9.5% (just 1 t2 exp hard fit), EM is so low it probably warrents a EM res rig.
Caldari - EXP is now the lowest resistance after 1 T2 EM hardener. Probably warrents a EM and EXP res rig if not 2 more hardeners.
Minmatar - Exp and Kin are now quite low on shields (armour was like that already), yet not enough slots to do anything about it without screwing the ships so just gonna suck vs exp and kin.
Completely shifts the balances around, and not just to em and exp damage, because you have to accept the hole or fill them. Filling the holes will result in other damage types doing more damage as a slot/rig is taken up by a specific resistance. -
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Velvet Spice
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:19:00 -
[76]
I stopped believing in your dev team's ability to properly balance this game a long time ago, so this doesn't really come unexpected, but I'm stunned nonetheless
"hi we're making sweeping changes to all ships and nerf tanking in general, and afterwards we might try balancing single ships" - seriously...
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:20:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Volucer S
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 30/01/2008 19:14:19 Dev Blog basically boils down to:
"We are going to give Drones a HUGE BOOST. ...
Drones got huge nerf, they dont restore shield in drone bay.
Boost Gallente!
Wrong thread. You were lookign for the drone whine thread. This is the Amarr whine thread.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:20:00 -
[78]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
The problem with everything you say is that you think discrepancies with ships and modules is the problem, or the source of the problem. No, its a problem that exists in every race.
Tweaking one race does nothing in the long term. It is playing whack-a-mole with balance, and perpetuating FOTM. It is something that gets done, but it should NOT be the main priority after so many years.
It is a problem that exists in every single race. No it does not perpetuate FOTM[unless sacrileges and Maledictions are FOTM now and simply no one has noticed]. Its almost always big sweeping change that make FOTMs because FOTMs are the result of unintended changes that do things the developers didnt intend. This is much much easier to do with a big sweeping change.
The best example of this is the I-stab change that boosted I-stabs to ridiculous values. This, conbined with the rigs just introduced and the old nanofiber mechanics to make ships that had more low slots and trackingless damage completly and totally overpowered. There was no specific ship change that cause it, but a general change to a module that affected every single ship in the game.
There are instances where individual ship balance is done in a manner that makes a ship overpowered[E.G. the Myrmidon]. However that is more rare than than a sweepign change causing that effect. Its much easier to predict becasuse you can just look at the values of the ships using the current accepted fittings, and then see how powerful it is. Its much easier to fix because you can just change that one ship.
Zulupark might be "targeting any race in the same situation". But there is no problem and there is no other race in the same situation. This means it becomes a sweeping change for no good reason instead of targeting the problem[****ty ships].
Quote:
In general, its stupid to have the fight skewed so much in favour of one ship or race just because of uncontrollable base stats. I'm not advocating all ships be the same, but player skill and experience should determine the outcome of a fight first, and if its too close, then skillpoints and stats should play a deciding role.
If you feel its not fair for lasers to be completely impotent against omni armor tanks, then you must also agree that explosive should not be useless against omni shield tanks. The only reason we do not see as many complaints about the latter, is because shield tanks are less common, and Minmatar do not deal explosive damage exclusively, even if they are the explosive race.
This would be true if it were also true that any ship that can shoot explosive out of its guns [or drones] can not also shoot another type of damage[oh hey look, they all can!]. Or if those ships that were shooting explosive out of their guns were having a problem in balance because of it[oh hey, they arent!]
Quote:
Doing things this way is far more logical, and better for the long term. If you changed ships or weapons to a point where lasers are effective even against high EM resisted armor, then what is going to happen to effectiveness of shield tanking? You inadvertently entice even more people to stop using shields and switch to armor.
Do you want to be using Amarr in combat, where 90% of the time your guns are "meh, okay" because 90% of the time you're fighting other armor tankers - OR - do you want your guns to absolutely chew through the enemy in 50% of the engagements, because those are the times you're fighting a shield tanker?
Are the Abaddon, Geddon, and Harbinger too good against shield tanks? If they are, then you need to make a change to bring them back in line. If they arent then there should be a problem with brining up all the other ships to be reasonable against armor tanks because the Abaddon, Geddon, and Harbinger dont suck. And if there is a problem it will be easily detectable because we are only changing small things with regards to balance[the ships]
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Tempest Kane
Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:21:00 -
[79]
Guys, you seem to be missing the point a bit.
Its not so much the DPS of amarr thats the problem. Its the lack of cap to sustain the weapons even with max level 5 cap & weapon skills.
You need to increase Amarr base capacitor on all ships that use turrets. __________________________________________ - Tempest Kane, Reikoku Director, Band Of Brothers.
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Cynthia Nixon
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:23:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Alski
Changing the base resists on every single ship in the game effects every form of PVP AND PVE, it influences ALL other races choice of drones and missiles, and minmatars projectile ammo, it makes the second highest damage mod drones ū explosive drones even more viable vs. all enemies, it makes explosive damage even more of the damage type of choice for all who can chose it, and it nerfs ALL T1 ships active armor tanks as EM will always be their lowest resist, it changes NPC tanking stats for both shield and armor tankers, while doing nothing to increase AmarrĘs NPCing capability.
This.
I totally agree with the sentiment behind Zulu's idea, but I think that it doesn't take this sort of massive change into account.
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Salaman Rushid
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:23:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Salaman Rushid on 30/01/2008 19:23:33 While resistances are something someone can argue about forever as far as tweaking and changing, this blog doesn't fix what I consider the main problem with Amarr ships to be:
We can't fit our own damn guns. No Amarr ship can properly fit its T2 guns without massive amounts of power grid modifications. For any battleship, this means a minimum of 2 RCU IIs. This is a problem because in doing so you're losing slots for capacitor recharge, tracking/range, or tanking mods.
While I understand the 'give and take' mechanism of fitting, Amarr are simply screwed in this respect, and they are currently the only ones. The Minmatar battleships are the only ones even close to the same problem, and really it's not even significant.
Please fix the power grid for the Omen, Maller, Zealot, Harbinger, Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon. You can probably fix this more simply by fixing power grid requirements for the lasers themselves.
If you don't understand what I'm talking about, try fitting out some Ravens, Rokhs, Megathrons, and Dominix -- with your goals in mind of long range/dps/tanking. Try to take the same goals and apply them to Amarr ships. Amarr are supposed to be all lasers and tank, but we can't actually fit it, even with perfect skills.
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ArmyOfMe
Exotic Dancers Club
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:24:00 -
[82]
not a bad start
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:24:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Alski Something that keeps bothering me over and over again about this solutioną
Changing the base resists on every single ship in the game effects every form of PVP AND PVE, it influences ALL other races choice of drones and missiles, and minmatars projectile ammo, it makes the second highest damage mod drones ū explosive drones even more viable vs. all enemies, it makes explosive damage even more of the damage type of choice for all who can chose it, and it nerfs ALL T1 ships active armor tanks as EM will always be their lowest resist, it changes NPC tanking stats for both shield and armor tankers, while doing nothing to increase AmarrĘs NPCing capability.
Is my thinking just paranoid or is this not basically reinventing the wheel because of one little rough patch of road?
I think you're just paranond. I like the way it is going : Exp guys like me will still have to tend to shoot EM first on shields, change ammo on armor, switch on Exp with range bonus saying to them gtfo. Th/Ki are 75% of the damages on killboards with Exp coming third just because of drones, so it seems EM/Exp need to be chosen a lot more, no ?
Amar don't have the choice, their damage is EM + ... I just don't understand the Minnie boost coming with the Amarr boost but why not :) At least ppl would say "why not Amarr, or why not Minnie" at the character creation page.
Why CCP didn't just gave 10% more on each EM damage ?
That's easy, lol. That should be "Each type of damage * 10" then "Each people's HP * 10", then add 10% to EM damage, then revamp the modules... It's a nightmare I think.
Amarr need a specialty anyway. Because the nos nerf was deadly for them. So maybe something should be done to Amarr's capacitors... 2isk
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:24:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tempest Kane Guys, you seem to be missing the point a bit.
Its not so much the DPS of amarr thats the problem. Its the lack of cap to sustain the weapons even with max level 5 cap & weapon skills.
You need to increase Amarr base capacitor on all ships that use turrets.
ABSOLUTELY! Now how do we get CCP to realize what every single Amarr pilot knows? Any suggestions?
-- Rells
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Olavane Riftsnake
Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:25:00 -
[85]
Quote:
The Tech 2 Minmatar ships that have enjoyed a 92.5% EM resistance on armor will now have to make do with 90%
Thanks god I'm not flying T2 minnie ships!!!
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:26:00 -
[86]
Changing the amarr again... hmm. Well I have ben 100% amarr PvP for 2 years now, and I'd say I know the race pretty inside and out from the capital Revelation to the favorite little frigate the punisher.
What I've noticed in my time Pvp'ing is that Amarr is hardly as bad as people have made it out to be, Although I would never say it was as easy to fight with as the Gallante ships were, but after the latest nerfs, I'm not complaining.
If there are any changes to the race I'd love to see a cap use change on amarr guns more then anything, Amarr ships are known for there great capacitors, issue being we strap some lasers on and that caps gonna run dry faster then any race hehe. So imo, number one change should be cap use, number two I'd say lower the powergrid usage on the battleship class beam lasers, and the third priority I'd say would be a increse to the thermal damage on crystals.
Despite my amarr ships lacking 4 mids on most occasions, I'd hate to give up a low or high tbh, I like the unique layout of the amarr ships over the other races, and truely feel this should not be changed.
More then anything here I don't want to see amarr boosted to a point where everyone screams for a amarr nerf so, when you think amarr boost just think cap reduction in energy turrets =-).
-LordVodka
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:27:00 -
[87]
Well, it certainly does help Minmatar a lot! Oh wait...
Seriously though, I think that this may help Amarr a bit. It does however have the side effect of affecting Minmatar significantly - lowered resistances against both explosive and EM, which they deal together with their most damaging ammo - lasers only get resistances to one of their two damage types lowered. I'm not saying that's bad, I just hope you are aware of this and have tested the effects of a Minmatar DPS increase on the game balance. Who knows, I don't fly Minmatar ships, it might even be good?
Mind, I would have taken a wholly different approach on the EM resistance issue... there was the possibility of just adding extra EM damage to laser crystals across the board. Like, Multifrequency S currently does 7 EM 5 Therm, it could be changed to do 9 EM 5 Therm. That would mean EM damage is still massively resisted, but Amarr ships (and only Amarr ships) would be dispensing a higher raw amount of it. It would further play into the theory that lasers are the strongest, but most cap-hungry and fitting intensive weapons (currently they are merely the most cap-hungry and fitting intensive ones).
Aside from that - have fun rebalancing the Apoc, it needs it desperately.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:29:00 -
[88]
If you did that, Ishina, then you would probably make them do too much dps against shields.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:29:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Disteeler Lowering EM armor resistances coupled with raising EM shield resistances seems to me more reasonable and more into Occam's razor style. Maybe, of course :)
It'd be even simpler just to leave shield tanks as they are at the moment rather than either buffing or nerfing them; as Goumindong and others have pointed out, this has wide-ranging repercussions on other races' ships & weapons and has no direct impact on the effectiveness of lasers. The value of a midslot is such that it would make sense to many people for shield tanks to be more effective, though.
If it's possible to fix this issue without making sweeping changes just by rebalancing the worst of the Amarr ships, that would be preferable to changing every ship in the entire game. Doing both might also work.
Another idea, while I'm here: how about giving Amarr ships large EM-only turret damage bonuses, to mirror the Caldari ships with kinetic damage bonuses? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.01.30 19:31:00 -
[90]
Edited by: LordVodka on 30/01/2008 19:31:39
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Tempest Kane Guys, you seem to be missing the point a bit.
Its not so much the DPS of amarr thats the problem. Its the lack of cap to sustain the weapons even with max level 5 cap & weapon skills.
You need to increase Amarr base capacitor on all ships that use turrets.
ABSOLUTELY! Now how do we get CCP to realize what every single Amarr pilot knows? Any suggestions?
-- Rells
/Signed
A 10% amarr capacitor boost, or just a reduction in Energy Turret cap use would work so many wonders! |
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