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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.02 18:21:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Grimpak on 02/02/2008 18:22:13
Originally by: Xerpex You really don't know how to fit blaster ships.
Of course, switching the highslot would be better... But why are you trying to fit a plate if you want to fit a repper? Why can't you go full gank (if you really want to) (but then buy a mega or a brutix it's cheaper). Full gank dps doesn't change, you just finally have no cap problems...
Deimos' biggest weakness was that it had sucky cap. It's dps hasnt changed, it just lost a bit of tank it couldn't use anyway because it was always capped out, or if gankfitted it lost err dunno very little.
In any case, deimos is still kinda crap and expensive, if you want to gank the hell out of stuff, whether with passive or active tanking, buy a brutix or a megathron or a hyperion. If you want a cruiser class high dps ship, buy an ishtar. I do agree with you on that.
Also, stop saying "supposed supposed supposed supposed supposed" and look at how a ship IS and instead of how you want it to be in your perfect world. You'll find if you don't try to shoehorn ship fittings into your ideal for it, and instead fit along their strengths you might be more effective.
p.s. deimos still sucks, just less than before. In case you didn't get that.
try to survive while you whitstand punishment in a 20km strech till you reach optimal range of your guns.
by punishment I mean: drones, weapons, web, and so on and so on.
the deimos is a short range slugger. by short I mean 1km range. and that means that you have to deal with everything that comes at that range.
an active tank in an anemic cap doesn't fair because you'll end up capless and armorless when you reach 5km, with your mwd burning trying to reach optimal range and repping your weak armor.
thus the reason of buffer tanks. thus the reason why many people either fit an 800mm plate or a couple of trimarks. thus the reason why an active tank in the cruiser that is the point blank damage dealer by excellence, that took nearly 3 years to fine tune and finally improve the little bit that it needed to be improved and become the one ship that you should never let into 1km away from you, because if you do, you're dead.
atm the deimos is a do-or-die ship, and I, like many others, find that ok, because it's the role of the ship.
you don't boost a ship by watering down their role.
oh and I don't have cap problems in full gank mode, unless I active tank it, but then, I don't have fittings to make the ship go gank anymore.
...and where the hell did I say "supposed" in that post?
edit: oh and deimos doesn't suck, you just don't have balls to go inside blaster range with only a DCU and an explosive hardener as a tank. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.02.02 18:53:00 -
[152]
The Deimos received more cap to compensate for its lost bonus. Not 25% more cap, but closer to 19%.
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Khorian
Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:01:00 -
[153]
Neutron Deimos can reach out to 15km+ It will start doing effective DPS much farther off than 1km.
For that Medium Injector you would have to sacrifice Gun size, Damage mod, Range... all things crucial for the Deimos. Please don't do this.
---
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:01:00 -
[154]
Originally by: J Valkor The Deimos received more cap to compensate for its lost bonus. Not 25% more cap, but closer to 19%.
wich means that you'll end up with less cap if you fit a mwd. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:06:00 -
[155]
Bleh, just give it another 150 grid, problem solved.
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Julius Romanus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:08:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Gamesguy Bleh, just give it another 150 grid, problem solved.
Thank you.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:16:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Gamesguy Bleh, just give it another 150 grid, problem solved.
Indeed.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:49:00 -
[158]
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/02/2008 17:40:29
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/02/2008 12:37:05 I'm pleased for the apoc, no joke. It was definitely the bs that needed the help more than any other but this seems a little overboard tbh.
The Rokh costs 40-50 million isk more than apoc and does significantly less damage at pretty much the same range. In addition its capacitor endurance is eclipsed by the Apocs and they have very similar workable tanks with the apoc probably better with its 8 lows.
Thats just the Rokh, the Megathron is also getting the shaft. Tachyons are more painful than rails so this isn't just another Rokh. This apoc is actually going to hurt at 200km.
I'd rather buff the other two than revise the Apoc changes tbh but then the Pest needs buffing too and it just gets more complicated...
Please... 1st: Apoc has 7 lows not 8. Secodn Rokh has far better tank (As sniper ship), both more HP and resist bonuses. Also Rokh has greater range and greater locking range. Also APOC stil needs some acrobatics to fit.
So apoc will be great but won't be anew rokh. Its a middle groud ship, between the rokh and the conventional snipers.
Yeah the Rokhs tank is ace with an MWD, 2 TC II's & 2 sensor boosters fitted! You can fit a hardener!
I made a mistake with the apocs low-slots, you clearly don't know anything about fitting shield tanking snipers. 1st rule: Shield tanking snipers can't shield tank..
Why in any hell woudl a Rokh fit 2 TC? Only a dumb pilot woudl do it. It can !!
8 T2 Rails 2 LSE 1 Invul Field II 1 MWD 2 SB II 1 Track enhancer II 3 DAmage mods, 1 DC 1 AuxCurrent rig.
224 Km range. Capable of tanking ANY DD. Fit 2 extra Shield rigs and you can tank 2 Ragnarok DD!!!
Now go learn to fit properly a ship please.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Volzir
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.02 20:17:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Volzir on 02/02/2008 20:24:15
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 01/02/2008 23:14:33 Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 01/02/2008 23:13:32 just hopped on SISI, thought Id post here since not many people go to the game dev forum.
Zealot and Omen both get 5 turrets, but no extra fittings at this time.
So...They get a pointless and mostly useless 5th turret slot why?
Right now it requires Eng V, WU V, AWU V to fit 3 Heavy Modal Pulses a Nos and a Rep.
I assume we get the fifth turret slot so that we can run 5 small lasers on our cruisers?
Drop this extra turret crap, give us a BASE 5% PG increase and a 5% Cap increase. This is not extreme, this is not absurd, this is not incomprehensible. The problem with the omen is it's idiotic fitting.
Actually it must obviously be to fit 5 small lasers. The fitting is better, the tracking is better, and if you don't have to stuff a RCU or PDU into the low slots you can fit a Heatsink and 4 guns (5 guns soon, YAY!) and get MORE damage than with the 3 cruiser sized weapons you can barely stuff on there. Soon we'll start mounting Smalls to BS's too. Member of the second best race in the galaxy. |
Altaica Amur
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Posted - 2008.02.02 20:36:00 -
[160]
Just as a change of pace I'm going to mention what CCP seemed to have done quite right with the Apoc.
Apoc: 400dps/2763 alpha @ 210km with 55k effective hp Rokh: 321dps/1688 alpha @ 224km with 97k effective hp Mega: 351dps/1847 alpha @ 183km with 72k effective hp Tempest: 356dps/3475 alpha @ 152km with 62k effective hp
Fitting issues meant that it payed for those highly ganky tachyons with a drop to effective HP.
For closer range work the range bonus seems to put it in a similar damage and tanking catagory to the megathron doing 950 to it's 1130 but being able to do such without mwding right up close and instead being able to hang back at 23km or so and pound away on a target.
Also as a proud Rokh-flier I love to hear that the other Caldari rail boats are being given a validity upgrade with the extra turrets. All in all I think there are quite a few nice changes being proposed here as well as some less popular ones with the Deimos.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.02 21:12:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/02/2008 17:40:29
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/02/2008 12:37:05 I'm pleased for the apoc, no joke. It was definitely the bs that needed the help more than any other but this seems a little overboard tbh.
The Rokh costs 40-50 million isk more than apoc and does significantly less damage at pretty much the same range. In addition its capacitor endurance is eclipsed by the Apocs and they have very similar workable tanks with the apoc probably better with its 8 lows.
Thats just the Rokh, the Megathron is also getting the shaft. Tachyons are more painful than rails so this isn't just another Rokh. This apoc is actually going to hurt at 200km.
I'd rather buff the other two than revise the Apoc changes tbh but then the Pest needs buffing too and it just gets more complicated...
Please... 1st: Apoc has 7 lows not 8. Secodn Rokh has far better tank (As sniper ship), both more HP and resist bonuses. Also Rokh has greater range and greater locking range. Also APOC stil needs some acrobatics to fit.
So apoc will be great but won't be anew rokh. Its a middle groud ship, between the rokh and the conventional snipers.
Yeah the Rokhs tank is ace with an MWD, 2 TC II's & 2 sensor boosters fitted! You can fit a hardener!
I made a mistake with the apocs low-slots, you clearly don't know anything about fitting shield tanking snipers. 1st rule: Shield tanking snipers can't shield tank..
Why in any hell woudl a Rokh fit 2 TC? Only a dumb pilot woudl do it. It can !!
8 T2 Rails 2 LSE 1 Invul Field II 1 MWD 2 SB II 1 Track enhancer II 3 DAmage mods, 1 DC 1 AuxCurrent rig.
224 Km range. Capable of tanking ANY DD. Fit 2 extra Shield rigs and you can tank 2 Ragnarok DD!!!
Now go learn to fit properly a ship please.
Oh yeah, I can tank 2 DD, I have uber fleet setup
Fleet fights aren't exactly fought in EFT/Quickfit and rokh is pretty crappy fleet ship compared to mega(which is better ship if you have gall. bs 4 and some armor skills).
Though about tanking amarr fleet ships, I wonder if WW has amarr alt(seems he doesn't:P). It's like tanking fleet mega, only keep in mind you need 2 lows for rcus/pdus or fat wallet for ancillary c. routers...
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.02 21:17:00 -
[162]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/02/2008 21:23:06 Welsh flies amarr but not the BS admittedly. I am pretty clueless about Apocalypse' tbh but it doesn't take a genius to see that paying more for a rokh when you could fly an apoc is a silly decision. Same goes for the Mega I guess (which I do fly), damage is king in fleet and that never changes.
--------------- you all smell! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.02 21:55:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 21:55:43 You dont need ACRs or lots of slots for RCU IIs to fleet tank an Apoc. You just have to be content with not shooting 230km and doing 400 DPS. Since no other snipers can do that anyway, its not like its losing anything when its only doing 370 DPS at 190/170km with the best tracking in the game and 87k EHP before rigs.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.02.02 22:23:00 -
[164]
Can sombody try this on Sisi (I have no skills for Deimos):
highs: all neut/ion blasters (best mix you can fit med: mwd, web, 2x LSE II lows: DC II, 2-3 MFS, PDS/RCU as needed to fit guns ?
I guess that's the new face of the ship ...
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.02 22:24:00 -
[165]
Originally by: LUKEC
Oh yeah, I can tank 2 DD, I have uber fleet setup
Fleet fights aren't exactly fought in EFT/Quickfit and rokh is pretty crappy fleet ship compared to mega(which is better ship if you have gall. bs 4 and some armor skills).
Though about tanking amarr fleet ships, I wonder if WW has amarr alt(seems he doesn't:P). It's like tanking fleet mega, only keep in mind you need 2 lows for rcus/pdus or fat wallet for ancillary c. routers...
Ooo yeahh i am soo EFT warrior. That explain why your fleet (bob) has never been able to insta kill my sniper ship, neither your Titans killed me with its doomsdays, in this whole war, and I have been on almost all major engagements where IAC fleet was present. pffff yeahh I am sooo noob having survived all times I was primaried by snipers or hit by a Doomsday makes me so inferior to pilots that loose their ships just to get 5-10% more DPS. YEahh right.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr The Imperial Guards
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Posted - 2008.02.02 22:55:00 -
[166]
you guys are aware the new apoc runs out of cap after a minute or so? 2 x rcu if you want fleet fit still :( Sig locked, lack of Eve content |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.02 23:30:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 23:30:50
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Can sombody try this on Sisi (I have no skills for Deimos):
highs: all neut/ion blasters (best mix you can fit med: mwd, web, 2x LSE II lows: DC II, 2-3 MFS, PDS/RCU as needed to fit guns ?
I guess that's the new face of the ship ...
No scram? Kill them by bumping them and stopping them from alligning and using your buffer to keep you alive?
Originally by: Jonny JoJo you guys are aware the new apoc runs out of cap after a minute or so? 2 x rcu if you want fleet fit still :(
No, it doesnt, and no, it doesnt.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.02.02 23:31:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Xequecal on 02/02/2008 23:31:11
Originally by: Jonny JoJo you guys are aware the new apoc runs out of cap after a minute or so? 2 x rcu if you want fleet fit still :(
No, no it doesn't. >5 minutes with 8 Tachyons. It has better cap stability than the Hyperion. The main issue is the complete lack of any kind of passive tank, which all the other snipers can fit.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.02 23:32:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Xequecal
Originally by: Jonny JoJo you guys are aware the new apoc runs out of cap after a minute or so? 2 x rcu if you want fleet fit still :(
No, no it doesn't. >5 minutes with 8 Tachyons. The main issue is the complete lack of any kind of passive tank, which all the other snipers can fit.
it can still fit that tank if it doesnt mind not hitting 230km. Drop 2 tracking mods for a DC and EANM and its about as good as everything else and still shooting to ~190km.
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Captain Batou
Deathwatch Inc. Scalar Federation
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Posted - 2008.02.03 00:51:00 -
[170]
You know,I just started playing this game less than a year ago. I think im gonna quit. Not cause the game isn't fun, it is but every time i take the time to train into a new fangled ships they get nerfed. First it was the Manticore, thanks for the damp nerf. Second, the T2 torp raven. The h#ll is that good for when the ship does 130kms? Then I trained millions of points into gunnery and armor,ect, to gallente... Now its the Deimos? I just bought that ship last week!! You guys s#ck, plain and simple. What is it with you guys (GM's, dev's, ect) that you have to kill a good thing? Is it some sort of uncontrollable reflex? The deimos has a so-so tank. Which i think is its offset for so much dps, an inherent trade off for a 100mil isk ship, before fittings. Now you go and do this. What the heck am i supposed to do with another mid and no PG boost? If you guys nerf the deimos I'm telling all my geek friends how great this game is but how the management is running into the ground. You know why it's not as popular as those other MMO's? Cause you keep changing sh$t. leave it alone. ffs.... BURN AND DIE
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.03 01:03:00 -
[171]
wait, something is wrong with the t2 torp raven? Are you insane?
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.02.03 01:15:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 21:55:43 You dont need ACRs or lots of slots for RCU IIs to fleet tank an Apoc. You just have to be content with not shooting 230km and doing 400 DPS. Since no other snipers can do that anyway, its not like its losing anything when its only doing 370 DPS at 190/170km with the best tracking in the game and 87k EHP before rigs.
190km optimal, 370 DPS and 87K EHP is a rather large claim for an Apoc, what kind of fitting are you using to get that? -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.03 02:09:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 21:55:43 You dont need ACRs or lots of slots for RCU IIs to fleet tank an Apoc. You just have to be content with not shooting 230km and doing 400 DPS. Since no other snipers can do that anyway, its not like its losing anything when its only doing 370 DPS at 190/170km with the best tracking in the game and 87k EHP before rigs.
190km optimal, 370 DPS and 87K EHP is a rather large claim for an Apoc, what kind of fitting are you using to get that?
Its a double plated Megabeam Apoc with no MWD.
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Akiman
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.02.03 04:42:00 -
[174]
why noone wants to use reactor control unit II for deimos? cant u fit 5 neutrons and injector with RCU II? f**k hardeners.if this not solves boost grid! :D
dont make every ship HAVE TO use rigs to come up with a reasonable fitting. they should buff not for making the base fitting.
btw welcome to amarr hegemony :)
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UGLYUGLY
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Posted - 2008.02.03 05:12:00 -
[175]
I can fly the apoc and rohk equally well. And I do not feel the apoc is stepping on the toes of Rohk. The rohk may not be able to put out the same DPS as a Apoc, but it can take alot more.
The Apoc may be better than the gallente and minmatar Sniper BS's. But if you fit an apoc up for close range and put it up against those BS's it will get chew up and spat out. I think that it is balanced and diverse. Look at the bonuses the ships get, do you see a range bonus on the minmatar or gallente BS?
The 7.5% is a nice range bonus. This has got to be one of CCP's best changes. Giving amarr a great fleet ship.
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Edriahn
Gallente Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.02.03 09:51:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Akiman why noone wants to use reactor control unit II for deimos? cant u fit 5 neutrons and injector with RCU II? f**k hardeners.if this not solves boost grid! :D btw welcome to amarr hegemony :)
Get real, please. It loses onew low, how are you gonan fit RCU, tank and at least one MFS? The proposed changes are just wrong, there's no logic in them.
Is there anyone who likes these changes? Gellente were nerfed enough, why are you turning our only real HAC into a battlecruiser?
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:00:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 23:30:50
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Can sombody try this on Sisi (I have no skills for Deimos):
highs: all neut/ion blasters (best mix you can fit med: mwd, web, 2x LSE II lows: DC II, 2-3 MFS, PDS/RCU as needed to fit guns ?
I guess that's the new face of the ship ...
No scram? Kill them by bumping them and stopping them from alligning and using your buffer to keep you alive?
Originally by: Jonny JoJo you guys are aware the new apoc runs out of cap after a minute or so? 2 x rcu if you want fleet fit still :(
No, it doesnt, and no, it doesnt.
I did not state it was a solo ship :-) Just that small HAC gang damage dealer ...
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:05:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/02/2008 21:55:43 You dont need ACRs or lots of slots for RCU IIs to fleet tank an Apoc. You just have to be content with not shooting 230km and doing 400 DPS. Since no other snipers can do that anyway, its not like its losing anything when its only doing 370 DPS at 190/170km with the best tracking in the game and 87k EHP before rigs.
190km optimal, 370 DPS and 87K EHP is a rather large claim for an Apoc, what kind of fitting are you using to get that?
Its a double plated Megabeam Apoc with no MWD.
So in other words a terrible setup.
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Kay Han
Caldari Nothing Remains.
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:20:00 -
[179]
didnŠt crawl throught teh 7 pages.
But... yes... the new deimos stuff is kinda sucky. I always hoped for a 4th med slot. but without boosting teh grid abit it will be very very very diffucult to fit somethign else then electrons, when using a Cap injector...
also the repiar bonus amount sucks. even with teh 250 more cap, we will lose cap after all. so a cap injector is more or less mandatory then.
well guess there will be much work finding new setups....
kay
Originally by: CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.02.03 10:46:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 03/02/2008 10:46:05 Just a weird thought, since they essentially eliminated the utility slot on the Zealot (by adding another turret) why not do the same for the Deimos? That 6th high-slot is probably not used very often since you lack the grid to drop a nos in there when fitted with the biggest cannons you can cram on. Move that to a low-slot, giving it 5 highs (all turrets), 4 mids and 6 lows. Keeps what tank it has, add more utility with that extra mid and drops a high-slot you could rarely use to begin with. The bonus changes aren't bad, the repair bonus should give it a little more staying power although the removal of the MWD cap-bonus hurts its sustainability.
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