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New Dev Blog, Prism X and the Space Junk

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.02.15 22:52:00 - [121] Great Work! Nice Web blog! and Nice patch! A question though: What is the estimated gain percentage in saved CPU time or whatever from this patch? Originally by: CCP Whisper I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:09:00 - [122] I heartily endorse this product and/or service. The space junk must die! One thought: it would be nice if there was a mechanism that we as players could use to track our caches' lifespans remotely. One possible way to do this would be to have a list of objects anchored by us available on our character sheet, along with their locations and either an expiration date or a lifespan counter. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Tes Quin	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:09:00 - [123] yay? -- ccp/isd, when is my portrait comming?
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:24:00 - [124] Absolutely Fantastic! I've been hoping for something like this for years now, "Space Junk Must Die!" As to the graveyard... shouldn't be too hard to keep it. Just put up a tower, and keep it running. You may have to move it all intially, but it won't be hard to maintain it once it's moved. Though the thought of an NPC corp of trash-haulers is pretty amusing. Would certainly add some life to the world to see them roaming around picking up random stuff laying around. ------ begin signature ----- Little known Eve fact, The original race names were: Amarr Empire, Caldar Empire, Minmatar Republic, The Jovians, and The Remanaquie Federation.
Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:06:00 - [125] thank you ccp!! quick question if its not too much trouble: can you guys tally up how much junk is cleaned up in the first sweep purely for comedic value???
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:56:00 - [126] Originally by: Gemini Zero quick question if its not too much trouble: can you guys tally up how much junk is cleaned up in the first sweep purely for comedic value??? ^^this would be VERY great information to publish, I doubt that people truely understand how cluttered the database is by all these pieces of space trash. --
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.16 01:44:00 - [127] Originally by: Ephemeron If your reasoning is correct, then there would not be development of Premium Graphics content, on which CCP spent a lot of time and money. The premium graphics was designed to help display the tableau of space activity and combat that Eve represents. Not to be a high-res rendering engine for "art" made out of little white diamonds. Originally by: Ephemeron If one game company can't add certain feature because it badly effects their game performance, then another game company will make it. In order to compete, they have to push their physical limitations in favor of additional game features. Letting people artistically express themselves in 3D world is extremely important for a healthy game community. Games like the Sims and Second Life heavily rely on that concept. Oh noes, stop the presses! Different game companies make different games. Not only that, those games have different features that different people like. Who'd have thought it? Complaining that Eve doesn't have tools for artists is like complaining that you can't grab control of your general in an FPS mode in a Total War game. Originally by: Erotic Irony does this mean pre-caching destinations is never going to materialize? If by this you mean pre-loading stuff that's at your warp exit point while you are still in warp, I don't think it's really related to what this blog is talking about. In your case, the client would still load everything from the server as usual, just slightly earlier. The caching would come in on your own PC, mostly in loading graphics assets into memory before they are actually needed. This would be limited by the memory capacity of your own machine, rather than anything server-side. The caches being talked about in the blog are purely server-side, and come into their own when you have a large number of people requesting the same data in quick succession, rather than specifically speeding up an individual. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
WGD118 Eternal Pheonix Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.02.16 02:34:00 - [128] Great job its about time someone destroyed all those cans. But please ccp save the cemetery. It was a nice story and one that I fulling intended on supporting. Not only that but by now it is an eve landmark. Wow never thought I would be trying to save a cemetery in rl much less in a game.
Kynes Harkonnen HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.16 03:07:00 - [129] Well an idea for the graveyard, perhaps the owner could set up a volunteer system to have people help maintain it just by opening the cans, so 1 person doesn't have to maintain it by themselves? Would it even be possible for other players to keep someone's can alive?
Elyssa Spacebread Caldari MASS	Posted - 2008.02.16 03:33:00 - [130] i think this is 1 of the better changes yet. finally a end to 100 cans around 1 gate

Mulco Metalheads	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:39:00 - [131] Thank you!
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.16 05:33:00 - [132] Originally by: Azia Burgi sob can i enlist the help of some GMs to help unanchor all the graves and move them to a station until i can figure out a way to commemorate the dead that doesn't incurr a nerfbat? This, it is important! The poor fallen warriors (and noobscout-alts) will turn against you, PrismX. Rise, undead, RISE! On a more serious note..Cemetary?
Rho'varo Parvo Universalis	Posted - 2008.02.16 06:40:00 - [133] Generally, sounds good! I favour removing old junk. Specifically though, a longer timer on untended cans (90 days or 100 instead of 30) would be a bit less harsh on pilots that don't log in so frequently, while still going achieving most of the same clearing of unused rows from the DB. As a student, if there's a month (exam time?) in which I can't spend much time "in space", it would make me sad if I had to spend that brief time in space on a "chore": opening my few cans scattered around 0.0 so they don't vanish. A longer timer would reduce this sense of "chore doing" substantially. If you have "last accessed" data on cans now, I encourage you to compare the fraction of all cans that were accessed in the last 30 days to the fraction of all cans that were accessed in the last 100 days. I hypothesise that the fractions are reasonably similar, and thus similar data reductions would result. The suggestion of "X days -> unanchored -> Y days -> removed" seems optimal to me. I'd just like to see X = (90 or 100) and Y = (15 or 30), rather than much shorter periods.
Altar Mei Solstice Systems Development Concourse The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.16 06:43:00 - [134] Originally by: CCP Prism X Awesome Wish more of you guys would deliver like this. "Listen git this is the way it is, don't like it tough", you may end up with less customers but I'd still be here. :)
Narita	Posted - 2008.02.16 08:00:00 - [135] Originally by: CCP Prism X Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive exempting anything is it's probably because you're not a programmer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO game development. Please don't take this as an attack on your person, it's just a fact that we can't be the best at everything. No shame in it. Hey why not just remove everything and then you'll have a "perfect" database with none of us cluttering it up for you? I mean, did you just literally say what I think - "It's ok if you don't agree with me, we can't all be the best at everything." If that is what you meant I am indeed not offended, in fact, the hubris greatly entertains me. I like the idea but you're coming on a little strong here, buddy. We're interested in a nice game being produced in the end, not you as a programmer having abstractly beautiful data structures or an easy time of it. You're saying our priorities don't matter - well I won't say (and don't think) your priorities are irrelevant, but the truth is somewhere in between both views. If you can't grudgingly concede the mere possibility of any reason for having cans in New Eden, for example, it's just because of your hatred of anything that is mucking up your pretty DB. Nothing of any consequence exists in that backwater useless system except people's marker cans. It's an Eve institution, a tiny piece of permanence that exists nowhere else in the game. So why not leave 'em there? Clearly won't happen, and I can't say I'd go so far as to cry about it (I've never left a can there personally, either). Like I said, I like the idea overall, even though I'm a fan of "space junk" (my own caches plus finding cool things now and again) deleting it is worth the performance gains. But leaving one trophy, dead end system doesn't seem like that much of a concession to the sentimental among us. Or you could just not totally BLAST the sentimental among us for having the nerve to disagree. Kinda unnecessary, on top of deleting their cans, to dance on the grave and declare their entire viewpoints inferior too? Funny, but unnecessary.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar KULT Production	Posted - 2008.02.16 08:37:00 - [136] Good change. And funny how everyone first whines about jump in lag etc, and when something is done that can in fact greatly improve it, as I/O is about the slowest thing known to computer hardware, the whine starts to not do it. Oh, and imho "can salvager" isn't a profession. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Jei'son Bladesmith The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:06:00 - [137] well, i'll certainly be sorry to see the graveyards and can arts go, some people put alot of effort in to them, but its a small price to pay for cleaning up all the crap lying around here like the ad cans around gates/stations, the defunct storage cans in belts, etc. A simple timer (30 days sounds good for a start, tweaked as needed) is perfect - if you use it, it stays, if not, poof ☼☼☼ 12 Seconds ☼☼☼
Drolus	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:17:00 - [138] #1 This doesn't really help with the feeling of persistance in EVE #2 Why can't their be a use found for the hacking skill in this? #3 Hey guys, lets remove instas - that will fix the lag! Guys... Guys?
Neena Ailichi	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:31:00 - [139] Edited by: Neena Ailichi on 16/02/2008 09:32:45 Seriously, do you people REALLY care about some goddamn graveyard or do you jsut whine because you just can't accept that the devs are actually doing something good? First you whine about lag, then when they actually try to fix it suddenly can art is more important. Try to decide. You HAVE to make sacrifices to gain something, don't just expect CCP to shell out hunderds of thousands of dollars on new equiptment when they can do things like this. Seriously all your whining is ridiculous, the "feeling of EVE" might have been there for few month at the start but just say it, nowdays you might as well be playing it text based. If you get warm and fuzzy feeling when you see a shuttle floating in space... well... I don't know what to say to you
Eraggan Sadarr Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:12:00 - [140] I can only say: Finally...yipee Space junk as you call it, has always been a nuisance and resources hog.... So good riddance. And a nice way to do it with the expiry time on the containers. All hail the Need for Speed Eve Market Scanner

Poreuomai Minmatar Naval Protection Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:18:00 - [141] Edited by: Poreuomai on 16/02/2008 11:19:16 Originally by: Neena Ailichi Seriously, do you people REALLY care about some goddamn graveyard I visited the grave yard yesterday, there are hundreds of cans there, the line is so long that you can warp from one end to the other. I visited the New Eden system twice. It probably has messages from people who have stopped playing a long time ago. For many people, these things make EVE special. It's meant to be an inhabited world, not a visual representation of a database. Inhabited worlds have junk lying around which does not magically disappear all at once on the 1st of every month. Inhabited worlds have stuff which 'is just there' because someone put it there a long time ago. EVE is all about having a persistant environment. The question is, how can this be achieved and yet get rid of stuff which really is just junk, forgotten and no longer wanted.
A Sinner Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:20:00 - [142] Well good ideeas... but don't destroy that cemetary. ----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink"
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:08:00 - [143] T2 Fedos ftw! I don't see why any cans outside a POS forcefield should be protected though.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.16 13:29:00 - [144] Originally by: Shigawahhhhh Originally by: Von Druid I think the "generic space junk" shouldn't just disappear on the first downtime of every month. Say if I'm in a carrier with fighters out and just forget to call them in before downtime on the last day of the month (stupid I know), they'll be gone instantly after downtime. Whereas if I do the same on the first day of the month, I'll have a full month to search and pick my fighters up. If generic space junk had a timer too, this would be a non-issue. It doesn't need to be a full month, just a week or even two days. Just something to prevent stuff from disappearing from space after a single downtime. Agreed. Especially for fighters they need a bit longer life rather than just a first of the month rule. Adding a timer add something more to keep trace of. So more database space, not less.
Xenofur Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 14:26:00 - [145] Quote: Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive exempting anything is it's probably because you're not a programmer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO game development. Please don't take this as an attack on your person, it's just a fact that we can't be the best at everything. No shame in it. Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive reducing persistency is it's probably because you're not a gamer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO gameplay. Now to some original content: What you are doing here, is simply put, reducing the game's status as a unique and persistent world and bringing it closer to a heartless and streamlined space combat simulator. A game like this lives from the stories as much as from anything else, especially when the original developers are simply put overwhelmed with the task of creating more stories. It should be the duty of every mmo developer to give players the tools to create mroe stories, instead of doing the opposite. What you are doing here is maybe admirable for a programmer. You are going straight for the shortest, fastest, most efficient solution and refuse to budge in any from it. However that's a deplorable approach for any MMO developer who wants to pride themselves in creating a world, as opposed to an arcade game. Now, this criticism of your methods aside, let's be a bit constructive. Let's talk about a way for players to create persistent content without marring your databases: The main problem is that most space art requires many smaller objects to be put in space, all of which have to be loaded individually. The most intuitive solution i see there would be then to allow players to choose to load them. - Create a secondary cache on your servers with dynamic size for space art that lives independantly from the normal cache. - Create a an anchorable field projector item that marks all objects in its range as "art". Make it require a certain number of "exhibition permissions" per month, based on system security, the obtaining of which would cost something like 300 m ISK per month. - Make the normal cache and the cleaning procedure ignore all "art"-tagged items and only load them into the secondary cache. - Make an option in the client settings to load/ignore art. Aside from added workload in contrast to simply writing a little sql script, would this present any serious problems?
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:05:00 - [146] Originally by: Xenofur well written post Wow, and I thought I was the only one who actually don't feel all that good about this so called "improvement". I acknowledge that performance issues are important, but so is content, especially player created content as small as it might be in your eyes. Advertisement containers at the star gates might be an eye sore to some, but they are actually the only visual difference from visiting one star gate to 95% of all the others. Can art and the graveyard even more so. And as you can turn them off the overview they don't really bother me at all. According to the EULA EVE is a MMORPG. Prism X talks about what is important for a MMO, but seems to be completely ignorant to the RPG part. Shame. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Banni Vinda The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:30:00 - [147] Although some people are complaining that this removes a profession from the game (loot salvager), it does open the door for another: Caretaker. Not sure if the mechanics support this, but how about you make a business out of 'maintaining' other peoples' cans? They pay you a monthly fee, and you ensure that their cans get opened at least once a month. Naturally you'll have to build up trust before people give you their can BMs and passwords, but then isn't much of this game about trust, relationships, contracts etc? Given the diversity of folk that make up this game, I'm sure there's some willing to give this a try.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:46:00 - [148] Originally by: Xenofur What you are doing here, is simply put, reducing the game's status as a unique and persistent world and bringing it closer to a heartless and streamlined space combat simulator. That's actually very correct and interesting, and it's related to my advocacy for giving salvagers a shot at this junk on its way out. From a pure space combat point of view, terminating the junk ASAP and with extreme prejudice is obviously the right thing to do. And CCP is under a lot of pressure from the fleet battle people and the hard-core missioners to improve their experiences. But this is ALSO a MMO-Roleplaying-G. And the junk is important to many of the folks who play. Compromise is needed, not true ideological database purity. We all need better space combat, or the game will wither. But finding ways to get to that goal that preserves what makes the game fun for the folks who aren't hardcore combat monkeys? That's worth doing, too, if only so the combat monkeys will have more targets. Just cleaning the database ruthlessly on a fixed schedule has pretty harsh effects on the persistent world illusion. It needs to be done, but couldn't accepting some impurity (like, letting stuff come unanchored and drift for a few days before the space police have it terminated by the orbital mind control lasers) get us to the same destination with a bit more fun along the way? ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles
Gerome Doutrande Rue Morgue	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:58:00 - [149] Edited by: Gerome Doutrande on 16/02/2008 17:04:17 I think that from a technical perspective the cleanup is good and long overdue. I couldn't disagree with you more on the graveyard/can art issue. Your view of this is purely technical and lacks perspective. You should consider these things as real world monuments. Right now you are the road planning administration clerk who wants to tear down monuments because they obstruct car traffic. Doesn't really mix too well with the nicely worded stuff about a virtual society Hellmar has been speaking of.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:00:00 - [150] Originally by: Azia Burgi sob can i enlist the help of some GMs to help unanchor all the graves and move them to a station until i can figure out a way to commemorate the dead that doesn't incurr a nerfbat? its the very least they could do for you Trashed sig, Shark was here



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