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CCP Saint C C P	Posted - 2008.02.14 15:27:00 - [1] Prism X has written his very first Dev Blog! Providing information on what is going to be happening with all of that space junk floating around and a little something in the way of protection for your goods. If youÆve got goods anchored down, check out Prism XÆs very first Dev Blog The dustmen take to space! Saint Community Representative EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang


Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 09:43:00 - [2] Mmm space junk... can't you just move all the junk into my hangar? Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.15 09:54:00 - [3] Another isk sink. Fantastic! Also, isnt there supposed to be an example? It just says example, nothing more.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.02.15 09:57:00 - [4] Now THIS is what a change badly wanted by the community looks like! Prism X sez: "Read my lips! No more container belts!" Looking very much towards this one. The removal of derelict anchored cans (like abandoned caches in belts making it imposible to anchor new ones, or those annoying adcans for corps not even existing anymore littering the more heavily trafficked 0.6 gates) was badly needed and is long overdue.
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:03:00 - [5] Finally something to get rid of the containers littering space! (I did like the rats shooting them until it was changed back to not do it again...:/) -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:12:00 - [6] At last. Death to the useless space junk!
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:16:00 - [7] Prism X, well written Dev Blog that doesnt just explain the 'what' but goes deeper into explaining the real underlying 'why' of a change, good job! Cleaning up the belts of anchored rubish = win!
Winters Chill Amarr Legio Victrix New Eden Federation.	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:20:00 - [8] Thank you. but one has to ask, why wasn't this done when need for speed started. Lots crap being tracked by a computer; well, you don't have to be computer savvy to guess that this would cause problems. Its kind of strange you guys would wait until now to deal with this problem. Maybe you should all stop eating that festering shark with that rotgut you call a drink and start doing some work
Eteindre Shandrate Amarr Instigators Incorperated	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:20:00 - [9] just wondering... because i like the idea. What about this ?
jam6549 Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:37:00 - [10] kool :D
Xykanth Roldeir	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:41:00 - [11] I love those changes. I would like to ask for a few more things along the same lines. For the first First of the monthly Fido assaults just move all those cargo containers to the nearest hangar. Then ever after they just disapear. Also add into Assets your anchored containers so you can find those things that you may have left out in the middle of some forgotten place. Lastly please don't allow things to be anchored within minimuim 300km of warp gates or stations, or whatever the vissible range is. It would be very nice to not be seeing advertisements everytime I jump into a system or exit station. Or make it so anyone can unachor cans in visible range of stations or warp gates. Leaving cans around the POS is fine by me.
Kynes Harkonnen HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:52:00 - [12] Win! Nice devblog Prism X Only thing is... No more can art! :( (without excessive amounts of maintenance) (j/k I fully support this change lol)
Captain Thunk Captain Morgan Society	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:55:00 - [13] :sadthunk: awww man, you're gonna go delete poor ol' Thunky's super-secret-hidden-stash located in an isolated system in Fade. It's got loadsa cool stuff in there. This is a bad day for me, I loved that can, I put my heart and soul into it, but there's no way I can go visit it once a month. I mean, I love my can and all, but I don't think I'm ready to make such a commitment to it. This is really bad news, think I'm gonna have to go lie down while I come to terms with the parting of Thunk and his beloved hidden can.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:58:00 - [14] What about the graveyard and can art? any means for these players to preserve thier sites? like get isd to deploy a protecto field for it?
Von Druid Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:02:00 - [15] I think the "generic space junk" shouldn't just disappear on the first downtime of every month. Say if I'm in a carrier with fighters out and just forget to call them in before downtime on the last day of the month (stupid I know), they'll be gone instantly after downtime. Whereas if I do the same on the first day of the month, I'll have a full month to search and pick my fighters up. If generic space junk had a timer too, this would be a non-issue. It doesn't need to be a full month, just a week or even two days. Just something to prevent stuff from disappearing from space after a single downtime.
Geiss Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:03:00 - [16] I also like these changes in general - most cans are a waste of space and forgotten. There should be some system-wide exceptions though. For example the New Eden system, where 100s of players have anchored cans, some in memory of real life deaths of loved ones, etc. Can the New Eden system not be saved? There was also a news article posted on 2008.02.09 by ISD Magnus Balteus entitled "A Cemetery Grows" about Azia Burgi's cemetery in Molea, where he'd taken the time to achnor over 400 "small secure caskets" containing pod-pilot's biomass. It would be a shame to lose this also. Both systems are an important legacy for Eve.
Larice Minmatar Seven Provinces	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:03:00 - [17] What about a warning when people jump out of their noobship in space? I see those things floating around everywhere while it's easier to just trash them in station....
Shigawahhhhh Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Von Druid I think the "generic space junk" shouldn't just disappear on the first downtime of every month. Say if I'm in a carrier with fighters out and just forget to call them in before downtime on the last day of the month (stupid I know), they'll be gone instantly after downtime. Whereas if I do the same on the first day of the month, I'll have a full month to search and pick my fighters up. If generic space junk had a timer too, this would be a non-issue. It doesn't need to be a full month, just a week or even two days. Just something to prevent stuff from disappearing from space after a single downtime. Agreed. Especially for fighters they need a bit longer life rather than just a first of the month rule.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:13:00 - [19] Freee cheezburgz fur Prism X! \o/ --- planetary interaction idea!
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:25:00 - [20] Smashing Dev Blog, thanks Prism X. Only one remaining question, when is this and Trinity 1.1 penciled in for? Thanks. ABVSS are recruiting...... Veeeeery Slowly!! Hehe!!
Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:25:00 - [21] Edited by: Katana Seiko on 15/02/2008 11:28:40 Hooray! Finally! I guess there are some containers in some belts since beta... And even better, there were a few Ice belts removed from 0.8 and 0.9 - i guess the containers in there were not removed... Only one question about the how remains: When is the Trinity 1.1 Update scheduled? --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Angelica Tharax Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:28:00 - [22] There should be exceptions made for the EVE graveyard and the EVE gate systems. Also, the fighter (and by extension all drones) changes mentioned above. Otherwise, nice change.
Aphrodite Whiterose Amarr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:28:00 - [23] I think certain things like the New Eden system and the graveyard etc should be exempt from this as there are a lot of real memories in those. The can idea can be good but will have to see how much this speeds the systems up ----------------------------------------------- Amarr - Playing EVE in Hardcore Mode since 2007
CopyCatz Caldari ZipZoom Kaboom Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:39:00 - [24] Edited by: CopyCatz on 15/02/2008 11:42:14 Why not make this a player profession? After the timeout don't clean them up automatically but allow players to clean them up with a new vacuum cleaner style ship? There's always demand for new professions in eve, I'd love to clean out those ice belts that have more cans than ice in them. I think the graveyard should not be excluded from this new measure. To one player it's cool, to the other it's just plain annoying. What if I were to make a giant can-art in space that spells "LOL", is that different from a "graveyard"? where would you draw the line...
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:41:00 - [25] Well, in theory, the graveyard could be kept going by accessing each can once a month, but that would be a bit of a burden. It's at a planet in high sec, so putting up a starbase/outpost is not an option, but a beacon with the trash-exemption field would be nice. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
CopyCatz Caldari ZipZoom Kaboom Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Well, in theory, the graveyard could be kept going by accessing each can once a month, but that would be a bit of a burden. It's at a planet in high sec, so putting up a starbase/outpost is not an option, but a beacon with the trash-exemption field would be nice. Why not put up a pos without guns and put the graveyard there. At least someone has to put effort in it that way to keep the database occupied :)
Kessindarinia	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Tajidan why not scratch the idea of just removing em and instead make em accessible to everyone after a month non-usage? would create a new miniprofession, spacejunker, ppl could roam around and scoop the socalled spacejunk. I like that Idea more than just removal - unlock it after 30 days, remove after 60 that would be cool. meanwhile: Kessindarinia cna has Chezeeburgers!! ... Plz send ISK!
Wyliee Taurus Inc	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:58:00 - [28] good idea however regarding cargo containers i have a better idea. i think there should defo be a life time for anchored containers - however the life time should be for how long they are protected against distruction by other players. IE after a certain amount of time savlaging players can go looking for out of date containers and blow them up without a sec hit or concord pawning them. then they can get some usefull or otherwize loot dropped from them. to to recap - after 30days players loose thier ownership of anchored containers - and they are free game to all the player base. this will bring another aspect to game play - rather than just fixing a technical issue by taking something away from game play.
Kynes Harkonnen HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.15 11:58:00 - [29] But wouldn't letting them be scoopable by anyone after a month both a) not actually clean up all the systems and b) not actually protect art/graveyard/etc? Maybe a new type of jet can that doesn't expire, with very small cargo space (enough for a corpse say), but data about them isn't sent to clients on system jump-in? Don't know if that's actually possible with game mechanics tho.
Wyliee Taurus Inc	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:02:00 - [30] simply allowing them to be scooped seem a bit ***. wait. - there was mention of a anchoring fee? this could be a payment for concord to protect the can - after which no protection after which players can blow them up and salvage them/
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:03:00 - [31] What a shame :( After 3.5 years my frigate tournament cube will die
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:03:00 - [32] Nice one, finaly removing all this crap from space :) ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me.
Bahamir Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:03:00 - [33] What happend if I'm a bad lucky man than just drop an anchorable structure just before the downtime the last day of the month with no time to anchor it? my structure will be deleted no matter that it has less than 1 hour on space?!?!
Altaree Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:07:00 - [34] I love this idea! Just a few small modifications please! high sec - 1 month low sec - 2 months 0.0 - 3 months. This would allow people to have their item cache's in the harder to reach areas. Especially the areas where other players can just shoot your crap and get rid of it. I also worry about the people that already make a profession of scanning down lost drones/fighters. You have just nerfed the heck out of their profession. +1 to the idea of unlocking the cans for a month before they are deleted. That first month would be a gold rush! WOO WOO!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!! Blue Sky
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:11:00 - [35] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 15/02/2008 12:13:08 Originally by: Bahamir What happend if I'm a bad lucky man than just drop an anchorable structure just before the downtime the last day of the month with no time to anchor it? my structure will be deleted no matter that it has less than 1 hour on space?!?! From blog, "Anchorable containers will from now on have a 30 day lifetime from last usage. This means that once you anchor a container it will gain an "Expires In:" attribute. If this container enters downtime with 0 days left it will be removed from space." I read this as, every can will have its own count down, when its countdown reaches zero, the can will go poof at the following downtime. So what you describe would not happen. For generic junk, shuttles, nublet ships, these will go away at the first of the month, they will not have a counter, but anchored cans will. What I do not see is how will non-anchored cans dealt with. When does the counter invoke, at the anchor event or the launch event. If it is the anchor event and not the launch event, and a non-anchored can is considered "generic junk", then perhaps the scenario you describe, Bahamir, could happen. So questions to Prisim X, is a non anchored can considered junk and when/what starts the counter? The quote, from the blog indicates the anchor event, so how are non-anchored cans classified, or is this intended, "secret but not secure stash". The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Sleepkevert Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:15:00 - [36] Originally by: Tajidan cemetery, can art, new eden gate? plz protect those. Cemetery ok.. but can art isn't really allowed to begin with. Yeay for not having to load +100 secure cans when warping to some station! <3 PrismX _ Sign my sig!
Bit Steen	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:24:00 - [37] Hurray! I hate the anchored Containers - bill the pilot/corp for removing the container service - 1Mio ISK :-)
Erik Legant	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Xykanth Roldeir I love those changes. I would like to ask for a few more things along the same lines. For the first First of the monthly Fido assaults just move all those cargo containers to the nearest hangar. Then ever after they just disapear. Also add into Assets your anchored containers so you can find those things that you may have left out in the middle of some forgotten place. Lastly please don't allow things to be anchored within minimuim 300km of warp gates or stations, or whatever the vissible range is. It would be very nice to not be seeing advertisements everytime I jump into a system or exit station. Or make it so anyone can unachor cans in visible range of stations or warp gates. Leaving cans around the POS is fine by me. About the cans anchored within 300kms of a station : they are useful as beacons to get out fast of stations with messy exits. otherwise, signed
Tajidan Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:32:00 - [39] Originally by: Sleepkevert Originally by: Tajidan cemetery, can art, new eden gate? plz protect those. Cemetery ok.. but can art isn't really allowed to begin with. Yeay for not having to load +100 secure cans when warping to some station! <3 PrismX I know that my idea is not really the best either, but i think its a bit a comfy solution to just delete em all. While in 90% its absolutely right to delete the can it also removes a part of eve. I dont know about you guys, but when i'm roaming around and find somewhere at a moon a can that was left there ages, it adds depth to the game. knowing that some dude 3 years ago droped a can there is actually pretty cool. i absoulety get the annoying part, having belts spammed with hundreds of cans etc. i just think ccp shouldnt use a sledgehammer to do this ;) http://www.eve-gfx.com
Ursula LeGuinn AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:38:00 - [40] There are downsides to this idea, namely can art and graveyards will be adversely affected. However, it's a small price to pay to remove the hundreds of thousands of other worthless eyesores floating around every gate, asteroid belt, ice field, and station in the game. That includes the EVE Gate; we don't need a cloud of lagtastic graffiti crapping up the area. ________________
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:40:00 - [41] Edited by: Helison on 15/02/2008 12:42:05 Great stuff in general, but some changes would be even more GREAT: First a question: Does normal space-junk (ships, ...) also has a timer / date of creation? If yes, then following rules would be easily possible: Run at every downtime (for example): ) Remove all shuttles, noobships and drones, which have older timestamps of last access than 24h. ) Remove all fighters, which are older than 3d. ) Remove all unanchored containers, which are older than 7d (14d in 0.0) ) Unanchor all anchored containers, which are older than 30d (60d in 0.0) and give them a new timestamp, so that they will be deleted after 7 days, or they can be scooped during this period. *) Unanchor all POS-modules at an offline POS after 30d Btw: How far will reach the protection by a POS? Will it be the whole grid (hopefully)?
Austant Wange	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:48:00 - [42] Nice blog Prism X. I'm against all kind of waste so I welcome the change. Since you are making changes to containers also consider these as well: 1. Container capacity is not enough for mining. Bigger I mean real huge, real giant containers should be available like 10000, 20000, 40000m3 to reduce the number of the containers. 2. Anchoring skill should also be changed to limit the number of the containers like contracts. Also bigger containers should require higher Anchoring to anchor to make this skill realy useful. 3. I respect the graveyards and container arts. A special type of container that don't have time and number limit and refreshes only you are in the same grid can be seeded. These containers lets say micros holds only 1m3 for the poor dead pilots left in the harsh enviroment of the space
Spoon Thumb Caldari Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:49:00 - [43] I guess it is a hard decision to make a change that will adversely affect some people, but which ultimately corrects a design flaw or inefficiency Can art etc might be missed, but I doubt people will complain long term if it leads to a better, less laggy game Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Yoinx Caldari JET FORCE Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Helison Edited by: Helison on 15/02/2008 12:42:05 Great stuff in general, but some changes would be even more GREAT: First a question: Does normal space-junk (ships, ...) also has a timer / date of creation? If yes, then following rules would be easily possible: Run at every downtime (for example): ) Remove all shuttles, noobships and drones, which have older timestamps of last access than 24h. ) Remove all fighters, which are older than 3d. ) Remove all unanchored containers, which are older than 7d (14d in 0.0) ) Unanchor all anchored containers, which are older than 30d (60d in 0.0) and give them a new timestamp, so that they will be deleted after 7 days, or they can be scooped during this period. *) Unanchor all POS-modules at an offline POS after 30d Btw: How far will reach the protection by a POS? Will it be the whole grid (hopefully)? I support this idea. Actually, I was going to post something along the exact same lines, but it's easier to quote. Running a clean up at each downtime seems more effective, sincea lot of crap could accumulate in a month. Also, I doubt adding a field in the db for access/creation time or whatever would hurt speed much. since the value would only have to be written once, each time it was accessed. then at downtime the code running could do the math to see if that value is over x hours old. Seems more efficient to do it this way, at each downtime. - I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. -
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Adunh Slavy What I do not see is how will non-anchored cans dealt with. When does the counter invoke, at the anchor event or the launch event. If it is the anchor event and not the launch event, and a non-anchored can is considered "generic junk", then perhaps the scenario you describe, Bahamir, could happen. He did actually explain this Originally by: Dev Blog Last usage is either when it was last anchored or opened. This means that as long as you take care of your space cache every month, it will be safe. However, if you leave an unanchored container it will be removed immediately the next down time. The same exception applies to anchorable containers as to generic junk (see below). Bolding is mine. So yes, if you launch the can just before DT, and don't get it anchored in time, you'll lose it. But I really don't think it's a big issue - launching anything into space when the server shutdown counter is ticking in your face is asking for trouble anyway, and it's very easy to avoid. Also, note that this is described as specifically affecting anchorable containers. Not any other type of anchorable. So presumably starbase towers (before you've anchored them to give the anti-dustman field), mobile warp disruptors etc are not affected by this, and will continue to behave as they currently do. As far as getting unlucky with server crashes, I don't think anything will change their either. As everything is keyed to downtime, I suspect that the dustman is going to be a fairly simple query that runs at downtime. It would be trivial to ensure that it only runs at a genuine downtime, and not after a crash or unscheduled restart. Originally by: Erik Legant About the cans anchored within 300kms of a station : they are useful as beacons to get out fast of stations with messy exits. Maybe the one or two directly in front yes. But you don't need the several dozen you sometimes get. And if it's a facility you really want, opening the darn thing once a month is a small price to pay. Originally by: Von Druid If generic space junk had a timer too, this would be a non-issue. It doesn't need to be a full month, just a week or even two days. Just something to prevent stuff from disappearing from space after a single downtime. I would think that the problem with the "generic space junk" having a timer will be to do with the number of objects we're talking about, and the frequency of the updates to that timer. Especally with drones and fighters, which go back and forth like yo-yos. Sure, it's unlucky if you hit the last day of the month and can't find your fighters, but that's balanced by you hopefully losing them less if you're not lagged out by loads of other people's lost fighters. Though thinking about it, there might be a different timer approach that would work better for these. It would still be a downtime job, but would let you specify the timer in a number of downtimes, rather than an actual time. This would add a "DTs in Space" attribute to things. Every DT, an update query goes through every potentially affected item and increments the count by 1 if it is currently in space, and resets it to zero if it isn't. The dustman can then delete anything which has been in space for more than X consecutive downtimes. The downside to this is that it won't flag up if you have interacted with the item between DTs. So if you get unlucky and lose your fighters just before DT, find them after DT, lose them just before the next DT again, it'll see those fighters as having been in space for 2 DT's, even though they are not idle or abandoned. So there would still be potential for "unjustly" losing your stuff, but it would be much more difficult to do. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:03:00 - [46] Hey guys and thanks for taking the time to read and comment. Just here to address some reoccurring thoughts and questions. What about the GY and Can Art? Heh, I was half hoping I had answered this in the "The Why:" part of the blog. As far as I'm concerned: Redundant blobbing of persistant cans is about the most evil thing you can do. It's got nothing to do with the DB and everything to do with excessive, and redundant, I/Os between the SOL nodes container cache and the DB. Redundant thrashing on the SOL node is exactly what we're trying to minimize with this feature so the GY and CA doesn't have a snowballs chance to be exempt. Obviously Azia can maintain the GY by moving it or touching it up. But it will have negative effect on whatever SOL Node it resides on and (seeing as I wasn't very clear on this being on the drawing board here) it is very possible that this will be made even harder in the future with additional changes. Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive exempting anything is it's probably because you're not a programmer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO game development. Please don't take this as an attack on your person, it's just a fact that we can't be the best at everything. No shame in it. If I leave my fighters out, during downtime, the 1st of every month.. they'll be deleted. Yes. That's why we're giving you this information well ahead of time. And honestly, why would you leave your fighters out in open space during any downtime? You get an hours worth of time to at the least call them back into your bay. I'll honestly maintain that this forward notice, along with the 60 minute pre-DT notice, along with the fact that you really shouldn't risk being in open space during down time (much less in a mission fighting) should make this a non-issue. Why don't you put a time on the generic items as well? That would totally make the above a non-issue! True. However, these are generic items. They don't have certain attributes that the containers have so it's not technically viable to add the timer to them as it would put an overhead on all generic items in the game. The concept of abstraction goes a long way to explain this but, like the rest in this 'behind the scenes' blog, is not something I can explain in laymen terms. No timers on everything. Why are you transmitting all this data on system jump rather than proximity? Calculating proximity for everyone in the system towards everything in the system, all the time, over and over and then launch an event which fetches the data is a lot more of an overhead then just use the arrival event to sent a chunk of data. This holds as long as this data to be sent does not cause the caching service to constantly thrash on IOs due to inconsequential cache records. Why delete rather than unlock and allow others to scoop them up? It defeats the idea of the whole thing. We want to get rid of them, not just flip a bit in the database. Anchorable structures and unanchored cans? Anchorable structures are not trash. We're not going to nuke any Starbases you've not visited in the last 30 days. Unanchored cans will be considered junk at the next downtime and promptly deleted. But the GY and CAs! Look, I've never been ok with the existence of these things. It's known by most people who bother to read my posts. The only way that I'd consider amnesty for these things was by scrapping this idea all together. At least, as it stands now, they can be maintained BUT Can Art is against the rules (and strictly speaking the GY is Can Art, just like post-modernism is art). What about <idea> I suggested! I'm currently in "Answer Questions" mode. I'll try and compile what suggestions I have here over the weekend and think a bit on them. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Helison First a question: Does normal space-junk (ships, ...) also has a timer / date of creation? I suspect it doesn't. Moving from e.g. drone bay to in-space doesn't cause the creation of anything, it just changes the location of an existing item. The only exception is where the thing was packaged before being launched (unpackaging technically creates a new item), but as that's not always the case, you can't use it as a general rule. While I would expect the state-change events to be logged, unwinding it all to find the most recent launch event relating to each item is going to be an unfeasibly massive query, even for a DT event. Given that the two types are being handled differently, there must be a reason for it. I suspect what would have happened is that they took a sample period of TQ logs, and counted the number of each type of event (drone launch, ship launch, can opening, can anchor etc), and found that the can interactions occur infrequently enough that maintaining a timer wouldn't be an unreasonable load. But similarly, things like drones probably saw massive numbers of potential updates, so wasn't feasible. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
dingadong	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:17:00 - [48] Hmmm you shouldnt remove shuttles, they are space ships and are used tactically to sneak in to 0.0 and then swap ship...
Karma Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Karma on 15/02/2008 13:28:50 I approve... in principle... but, the idea that abandoned ships and drones and fighters will be removed only once a month, and all of them at the same time ... I don't really know how to put it, but... if you'll excuse a metaphor: having an almighty hand of CCP come into the game and sweep the floor clean once a month feels a bit too... much like Deus Ex Machina. it removes some of the living nature of the game. having space junk like that have a timer just like anchored cans might be a better idea, atleast when it comes to game-experience... though not hardware-wise. edit: right... that was answered it seems... ships don't have the attributes so it's not technically viable... but they DO have an attribute you could use. hull. a ship that isn't being piloted could take damage from being out in cold space. it's powered down, so no shield-power. I'll let your imagination go wild as to what level of damage per second/minute/day they should take though.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:38:00 - [50] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Adunh Slavy What I do not see is how will non-anchored cans dealt with. He did actually explain this Fair enough, lack of sleep for the win. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Poreuomai Minmatar Naval Protection Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:38:00 - [51] Edited by: Poreuomai on 15/02/2008 13:41:02 I fully support the removal of old junk. However, it would be nice to have an alternative to using cans in New Eden, some way that 'I was here' messages can be left in that system ...
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research and Reproduction	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:38:00 - [52] Any fight against lag is a good fight indeed. Tho some systems do need to be allowed to keep their cans. Like new eden.
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Winters Chill Thank you. but one has to ask, why wasn't this done when need for speed started. Lots crap being tracked by a computer; well, you don't have to be computer savvy to guess that this would cause problems. Its kind of strange you guys would wait until now to deal with this problem. Maybe you should all stop eating that festering shark with that rotgut you call a drink and start doing some work It was first suggested back in 2004. I remember them saying that all secure containers in high-sec would be removed. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:53:00 - [54] Originally by: CCP Prism X True. However, these are generic items. They don't have certain attributes that the containers have so it's not technically viable to add the timer to them as it would put an overhead on all generic items in the game. Ahh, that a pain Also means I was probably barking up the wrong tree then. Originally by: CCP Prism X Look, I've never been ok with the existence of these things. It's known by most people who bother to read my posts. The only way that I'd consider amnesty for these things was by scrapping this idea all together. At least, as it stands now, they can be maintained BUT Can Art is against the rules (and strictly speaking the GY is Can Art, just like post-modernism is art). While the graveyard is cool, it's also a horrible bodge technically. Can Art is even worse - at least the graveyard is nominally storing things in containers, can art doesn't even do that. So I completely understand and support your stance on this. It would be nice if "ambience" projects just as the graveyard could be adopted in a more technically sound way though. Maybe a single large persistent structure in each empire, a sort of "pod pilot monument" that accepts gifts of corpse items, and converts them into inscriptions. Viewing the inscriptions would work the same way as reading the news via billboards. As it's essentially just a web-based listing system at this point, you could do all the comments etc in a standard web way, rather than having to write a whole in-game mechanism for it (though admittedly there may be moderation issues with free-text comment fields). Though this is a completely seperate project, and should in no way obstruct the implementetion of what you describe in your blog. I suspect ambulation will offer the biggest boost to such ambience projects though. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:54:00 - [55] Woot gratz on your first devblox Prism, here's to many more! \o/ - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Chronojam Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:01:00 - [56] Edited by: Chronojam on 15/02/2008 14:04:00 I hope all these decisions are not quite final yet. Perhaps this should be a one-time cleanup event to purge old cans from players long gone. I've had to go away from EVE for three weeks before, and that's 2/3 the time. I'd hate to have not visited a can for 10 days, then need to go away-- only to come back and find my stuff gone forever. I like the idea of having cans only remain anchored for 30 days, then unanchor and leave themselves ripe for the picking-- say, for another 30 days before removal. This way, whatever tasty loot was in that can you scanned down is yours for the taking. After that 60 total days, the containment systems give way and the can dies. It might even make scanning down and stealing these caches a viable, player-driven exploration analog. Which is a good thing, isn't it? Naturally we'd also need a Deployed Equipment journal that keeps track of our cans for us, and to remind us of that one ammo cache we left floating somewhere in empire. A question though-- any difference between cans suited for empire/lowsec versus cans made just for use in 0.0 where there may not be systems around and you need to live in a can?
Ursula LeGuinn AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:12:00 - [57] Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn on 15/02/2008 14:12:31 So the devs say, "Well, we'll just do this. That'll fix the problem." Then people respond: "Great idea, but can we have a special beacon for the player graveyards?" and "Can you make an exception for the EVE Gate?" and "But what about our can art and monuments?" and "But my friends have like a dozen ammo stashes, will they have to check them each month?" and "What if they just unanchor after a month instead of disappearing immediately?". If they made exceptions for all the situations people wanted, they'd either have to abort the fix or make it horribly complicated and difficult. Thank God I'm not an MMO dev. ________________
Samuel Drake	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:25:00 - [58] Originally by: Ursula LeGuinn Thank God I'm not an MMO dev. Definition of MMO Dev: 95% of the people that post on forums hate you. Nice blog, PrismX. Looking forward to less lag in EVE
Scouteye Locasta Tactical	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:28:00 - [59] If the GY does not have a chance of being exempt then why on earth ever produce a news item about it and allow the creator their 15 minutes of fame and make it a viable option and use for corpses? Why? Why? Why do that, do you people NEVER speak to each other? I fully understand why these changes need done and the benifit but your simply makeing another thing that makes EVE what it is almost impossible to maintain. There has to be a balance between servers running sweet and the living universe and removing things like the GY is not it. I bet your not removing Steves wreck? or did you already? Those things make EVE a living universe, not just a bunch of instances that people fly through to get from A to B. Kill the redundant stuff by all means but get it right.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:30:00 - [60] Awsome change, PrismX. On the graveyard, even though I've supported it in the past, I can see where you're coming from on can art and needing to be consistent. Having said that, I do think that the Eve gate should be an exception. There's just too much history in that one system. People adding on to the never ending quest of reaching farther and farther out towards the gate itself. It's silly, I know. But it's the one system where the cans left behind are more like pitons from past rock climbers. They have a use there unlike other systems, and the nature of it would of course put them under the clean up crosshairs. Push come to shove though, I'd rather see all the cool can art, graveyards, and even eve gate stuff get wiped if it means a serious cut down on object spam in space everywhere. So if it's one or the other, my vote is definately, "gotta go gotta go". It'd just be nice to keep a few of the things while cleaning up the rest. but then... who picks? Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hohne Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:33:00 - [61] Ahh.. are there really that many 10 million isk, scoopable by anyone fighters out there that this is an issue ? I mean, I understand the things that are impossible/nearly impossible or worthless being an issue since players themselves can't be bothered moving them, but seriously, you can't just exempt fighters as a category ?
Kronnoss Gallente Trident Future Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:33:00 - [62] Yeah, I like to see the space cleaned up, but I would also like if New Eden would stay as it is today. -----
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:35:00 - [63] good blog, but you have tipped the balance abit here. i know many asked for more info on why thing happen but it would have really been just the last 2 paragraphs as to WHY? nevertheless, i like spacejunk. can we reintroduce static space junk to maybe make systems more interesting then belts, planets moons and some gates.
Eric Nolani Caldari Advanced Response Division	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:53:00 - [64] Yep, kill the space junk! Most of the suggestions here are trying to save the space junk. They have been given exceptions already- visit them to maintain them or anchor a pos. No more exceptions! I do agree with some that the 1st of the month is a little...akward, but if it is a technical issue rather than concept, I can live with that. I would like to suggest though that if you are going to start charging isk for anchored cans, that the isk fee is used to pay a 'janitor' to keep the cans maintained longer than the non-isk payment standard. Oh, and having the hacking skill be effective against player secure cans would be hawt! Looking forward to faster session changes (and less lag maybe?)! <3 ------------------------------------------- ôDoesnÆt it **** you off to be beat at your own game!ö û MUDVAYNE æSilencedÆ
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.15 14:55:00 - [65] Thanks for the clarifications, Prism X! Originally by: CCP Prism X True. However, these are generic items. They don't have certain attributes that the containers have so it's not technically viable to add the timer to them as it would put an overhead on all generic items in the game. The concept of abstraction goes a long way to explain this but, like the rest in this 'behind the scenes' blog, is not something I can explain in laymen terms. No timers on everything. Hmmm, this is quite bad. And I can fully understand, that you don¦t want to add another variable. On the other hand it¦s important to avoid possible problems for the playerbase, specially, if this could increase the amount of petitions. Quote: Why delete rather than unlock and allow others to scoop them up? It defeats the idea of the whole thing. We want to get rid of them, not just flip a bit in the database. You will still remove them, if they are NOT touched for another few days. But it will avoid accidental loss. My changed proposals: ) Fighters: Don¦t delete them at all. They are worthy enough, that they won¦t float in space too long and they can be found quite easy (except if they are 100+ AU away). ) other generic stuff (noob ships, shuttles, drones): delete them at every DT or once per week (mondays). Monthly operations are bad. ) anchored contis: unanchor them. You¦ll lose a few percent of the hoped DB reduction, but you will avoid much problems and anger from ppl, who just forgot to refresh their contis. ) unanchored contis: Delete them after 3-14 days. You should have the timestamp, so use it. Deleting unanchored secure contis, who were dropped 10 minutes before downtime SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. And btw: You, CCP, should not make it impossible to play in the last hour before DT.
Pedo Fortis	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:01:00 - [66] The suggestions on non anchored secure containers sounds great. But the 30 day plan for anchored containers could be a bit more interesting. How about: -Ability (although v-hard) to scan out anchored cans. -Ability to hack cans where the chance of successful hack is zero for first 20 days but then rises toward 100% after 60 days (with good hacking skills, max one attempt per hour per can). That way we could provide some interesting hunting for the players and still get the same results (ie much fewer cans hanging around). People storing cans could then choose how often they would visit the can, every 20 days to be 100% sure or every 40 days but with some chance of it being nicked.
AndreasB Gallente The Knighthawks Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:07:00 - [67] While I very much approve of the general removal of spacejunk, I do think a few exceptions should be made. Although I can understand CCP Prisms stance of every piece of can art and the cemetary should go with the rest, I do think some parts should be retained, both to retain a part of EVE history, and support nice and non-expected parts of the game. So far, the only things worthy of keeping that have been mention are the cemetary, and the cans in the New Eden system. These are two systems out of all of EVE's systems, and as such, making special protection inside these two systems will not make a huge impact backwards in the savings the space junk removal project gives. Having two systems where space junk does not get removed, allows for stuff like the cemetary and the EVE gate can line to continue, and other future projects like that, while protecting the rest of EVE from the slowdowns of spacejunk and can art. Why not preserve a piece of EVE history even when moving forward? Its too late when its gone. --
Preya Halxyon	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:09:00 - [68] but, but, but!! my eight thousand can mural depicting the rise and fall of the roman empire will no longer lag out jita :(
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:10:00 - [69] Originally by: Hohne Ahh.. are there really that many 10 million isk, scoopable by anyone fighters out there that this is an issue ? I did find nine ravens once, all parked in a row, badger full of nifty mods too. So treasure is out there, just not so easy to find. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
AceOfSpace Pineapple Blunder	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:10:00 - [70] Ok, all seems sensible, though I'm a bit sad about how can art and the GY and stuff is so hated. I know it's technically a problem, but... well... there needs to be more ways to express yourself artistically in this game :) Everything is so generic. I wish there could be some visually-customisable things :) -it's my job to do it-
Kynes Harkonnen HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:18:00 - [71] Edited by: Kynes Harkonnen on 15/02/2008 15:25:03 Whats the ratio of anchored cans in highsec to low/nosec? Would leaving anchored cans in <.5 defeat the whole purpose of this? I'd be very surprised if it did... (it'd kinda work in a RP sense too, with say CONCORD keeping secure space clean, with lowsec being 'dirtier' with can graffiti) Also re. the 'transition' period of unanchoring a can for a few days before nuking it, makes a lot of sense (orange traffic light before a red kinda). /signed Especially if you can see your "assets in space" in assets window with anchored/unanchored, and even the countdown timer. Corps have 'assets in space' viewable so wouldn't be that big a problem hopefully? And for the record, I actually don't mind a bit of can spam around stations... Just adds a feeling of life, that other actual people populate space and make a mess lol. Tho I can't argue with killing the vast masses of unused cans, it definitely needs doing.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Mercenary Services	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:20:00 - [72] i think that guy who runs the space grave yard will have a problem.. To open all cans at least once a month Quote: CCP Chronotis Amarr boost is coming in a future dev blog, lets keep this on topic
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:26:00 - [73] Hooray \o/ _________________ Burn. Devs, ISD and GMs mod my sig for cake! \o/ CCP Navigator was here and left some green text and bars _____________ _____________
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:31:00 - [74] I am one step closer to decoding the inner workings of the Tranquility Cluster. Seriously though, I like the idea and your blog cleared up why and how cans are a problem. I have to admit that when discussing the removal/non-removal of cans in space I did not take into account the fact that such things are loaded during session changes instead of upon entering the grid and as such could be a source of IO thrashing. Interesting indeed, this could have a fairly significant effect on lag. That being said, I'm no expert but it may pay to develop (if possible) a fast system for transmitting when a ship enters a particular grid that would be comparable to the message sent when a player initiates a session change. Obviously this introduces additional complexity, and another point of failure, which is not good, and I don't know the full extent of what is cached on the SOL (static objects only, I presume) but this may reduce lag for players passing through systems. This could lead to noticeable gains for mission hubs. Thanks for the blog! ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3
BoB Peon Caldari Stop Posting on COAD You Tards	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:32:00 - [75] I hope the current junk will be deleted on patch day. I don't really want to wait a month to see the 500 cans at every other empire gate to disappear. Goon Leadership says: REMEMBER 46DP!
NightF0x Gallente Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:35:00 - [76] Now that GSC's and other containers are being removed on a reoccurring basis, are we going to be seeing the BPO's for these items being seeded? It's another market that would take off now that more people will be purchasing these types of items. It would be a good time to add them. ------------------------------------
Kaiji Vincente	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:35:00 - [77] Originally by: Chronojam Naturally we'd also need a Deployed Equipment journal that keeps track of our cans for us, and to remind us of that one ammo cache we left floating somewhere in empire. Seconded, though I would prefer having it listed under the assets window instead of the journal. Probbably would require a different tab however. I know the corperation management UI includes a listing of cans anchored for corp use. How easily this is ported to cans that are launched for personal use I can't say.
HighBirdDeuce Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:37:00 - [78] What about AMBULATION HighBirdDeuce Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected]
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:37:00 - [79] I love Prism's blogs and comments; they're always to the point and very informative, and he's usually working on improving the performance of the game in some way, which is awesome. If I may make a suggestion, can you guys figure out a way to improve our ability to have caches, while reducing their numbers / side effects? I'm thinking, bigger cans, or the ability to cluster or stack together our cans somehow so that they're loaded as one object. Or give us anchorable depots or something.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:48:00 - [80] This is awesome.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:52:00 - [81] hmm ... forums ate my post or I posted into another thread accidentaly. so my free time drone salvaging profession will close down it seems. not that it started any big, but I foun 5xhammerhead 2 with my first probe and around 20 other t1 drones (as well as 2-3 accel gates into missions). I do agree with the can deletion part thou. Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:52:00 - [82] This Dev-Blog is just chuck full of win. only thing that needs to be clarified: does the station have to be online and do the cans have to be inside the bubble perimeter?
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 15:53:00 - [83] People use cans for art because this game doesn't have any proper tools for creating art in space. If CCP thinks its a bad idea, they should give the community better tools, specifically designed for creating 2D and 3D art in space.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:04:00 - [84] Space junk must die!! Nice blog, thanks Prism X.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:14:00 - [85] woo! now when is trinity 1.1
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:17:00 - [86] Edited by: nihlanth on 15/02/2008 16:20:46 Originally by: Ephemeron People use cans for art because this game doesn't have any proper tools for creating art in space. If CCP thinks its a bad idea, they should give the community better tools, specifically designed for creating 2D and 3D art in space. No, the gameplay and performance takes precedence over useless bells and wistles such as this. If you want to create 3d art, use 3dmax or maya. Or simply draw/paint in RL. That is much easier than making art in a game.
isAzmodeus The Seven	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:20:00 - [87] This is how a dev blog should be done. What is going to happen Why CCP thinks it is necessary Writer responds to forum questions. Respectful from both community and Dev. More dev blogs like this one, please. As for this idea, I'd be in favor of it being cleaned out each week instead of each month. For advertisements, make it so players can "buy" advertisement time on the billboards, similiar to the corp recruiting tools. --------------------------------- The Seven- Blowing up someone near you.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:21:00 - [88] Who the heck are "the dustmen"?
Kyra Felann Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:26:00 - [89] Originally by: Ephemeron People use cans for art because this game doesn't have any proper tools for creating art in space. If CCP thinks its a bad idea, they should give the community better tools, specifically designed for creating 2D and 3D art in space. If you want to create art in a 3d virtual world, go try Second Life. You can make all kinds of stuff for other people to see in SL. Just beware the furries, bondage roleplayers, furry bondage roleplayers, etc. Eve is about spaceships, not "art" made out of big hollow hunks of metal in space.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Ephemeron People use cans for art because this game doesn't have any proper tools for creating art in space. To be fair, Eve is not and was never meant to be Photoshop in space. While can art was a nice novelty item, art in space comes way, way down the priority list in terms of game features. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:29:00 - [91] Originally by: Kyra Felann Who the heck are "the dustmen"? In RL, "the dustmen" are the men who come around with a big lorry, usually once a week, and take away everything you don't want anymore. Also known as garbage men, bin men, refuse collection facilitiators, etc. In Eve, there won't actually be dustmen ships, NPCs etc. It'll just be a bit of code that runs during downtime to delete the junk from the database. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Azia Burgi Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:33:00 - [92] sob can i enlist the help of some GMs to help unanchor all the graves and move them to a station until i can figure out a way to commemorate the dead that doesn't incurr a nerfbat? Azia Burgi http://azia.geekandproud.co.uk BP Profit Calculator EVE Cemetery
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:35:00 - [93] Asteroids/ice belts cleaning! yeah! And advertizement cans from years dead corporations gone! And and can art becomes as sand art... "And so castles made of cans melt in the void, eventually" (maybe you know the song) That's just great, you earned cookies, cakes that are not lies and more! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Zothike Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:52:00 - [94] Another thing to do for the 'need for speed'v initiative : Allow remote stacking / repackaging even in hostile station (repackaging of undamaged item of course) this way u will get much more less entry, as a year or so you introduced the "1000 items" in hangar limitations, personnally i got several place with more than 1000 items, with what i suggest i think i could easily reduce all my stack by 20-30% minimum
Exioce Gallente Trisomy 21	Posted - 2008.02.15 17:11:00 - [95] Prism X: shuttles, drones, newbie ships etc I don't think anyone would have a problem with removal on a weekly basis. Anchored cans in empire, one month seems a decent time period. However, anchored cans in 0.0, perhaps they should be given longer?
Anwylyd Al'Vos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.15 17:12:00 - [96] \o/ _ . - Justice, Mercy, and Faith My views are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Electus Matari.
Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2008.02.15 17:35:00 - [97] WTS BM's to approx 30-40 GSC, 1/3rd of them full with loot in different 0.0 space :) Seriously - although this is gonna do some theoretical damage to me (theoretically as I don't see me ever going there to pick them up) - this is a needed and welcomed patch thingy for me at least. Would be too much work, I guess, to code in one NPC corp offering hauling services? Say... 5-15 mill per gsc, only offering to transport to closest station? To make it realistic - you could even code in a 25% chance of the npc hauler to be blown up so you loose both the tainer and the content - to avoid people using this as a regular way of getting stuff hauled? Would be nice - but... I will keep regarding my stuff as lost anyway :) Yggdrassil
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.02.15 17:41:00 - [98] Corperation Assets in space. We know the system and whats in it... The where however is a big ? How are we suppost to find it and retrieve it before 30days are up if we dont know who anchored it? Being as they were anchored for corp then a note of nearest planetary body or even being able to warp to the object using the corp assets tab as long as you were in system would be nice. We have alot of assets out there that were anchored by people no longer in the game. I'd like to retrieve them before your mass purge hits. =-
Arwen Ariniel Gallente Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.02.15 17:53:00 - [99] Space junk must die. But our monuments must remain! CCP gave us a sandbox, and told us to craft our own history in it. Lot's of people have spent countless hours creating those monuments to remember that history, and now one DBA says it doesn't belong in the game? Removing a player invented feature, is not solving a problem... (now go talk to the guys that invented the criminal flagging system for stealing from jetcans, and come up with a better plan, in true EVE style). --- If it floats, and it doesn't say 'quack', sink it!
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:07:00 - [100] My posts must have a Developer Invisibility Quotient of at least 76.9 ... And for those that don't know that DIQ's pretty high... ahem So - I repeat my question - When's Trinity 1.1 scheduled for? Thanks, Vyk. ABVSS are recruiting...... Veeeeery Slowly!! Hehe!!
Lobster Man Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:11:00 - [101] Good to see :) I see so so so so so many shuttles and n00b ships and containers just sitting in the middle of backwater 0.0 systems, it will be nice to get rid of all that garbage
Ombey Obsidian Inc. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:18:00 - [102] Great initiative, but this will kill the Eve Cemetery -- 2d EveMaps
Geana Tem SCREAMING MEME'S	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:49:00 - [103] Originally by: Pedo Fortis The suggestions on non anchored secure containers sounds great. But the 30 day plan for anchored containers could be a bit more interesting. How about: -Ability (although v-hard) to scan out anchored cans. -Ability to hack cans where the chance of successful hack is zero for first 20 days but then rises toward 100% after 60 days (with good hacking skills, max one attempt per hour per can). That way we could provide some interesting hunting for the players and still get the same results (ie much fewer cans hanging around). People storing cans could then choose how often they would visit the can, every 20 days to be 100% sure or every 40 days but with some chance of it being nicked. Yeah, with a little ingenuity you can turn this from being a purely mechanical database action into a player collaborative process. MUDs have been rewarding players for cleaning up after themselves and each other for decades. I understand that it is not an efficient solution, but some would argue that playing games is not an efficient use of time... In short, give hackers MOAR power! and û add NPC a few NPC hacker ôdustmenö rats. ------------------------------- genders have been changed to protect the guilty and confuse the innocent
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:10:00 - [104] I started a thread on the removal of space junk in the ideas section of the forum ages ago. I suggested that cans could be salvaged by players if left after a certain amount of time but tbh I don't really care how it's done as long as it goes some way or another! This is excellent news though so hats off to Prism!
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:14:00 - [105] I love it all but I think that Drones and Fighters should have a 24 hour grace period to be reclaimed by their owners if in the event they lose track of time and forget to pull in their drones/fighters as down time hits. If I find forgetting to pull my t2 drones back into my ship at downtime hits annoying I can only imagine the flamage the devs would get from carrier pilots screaming that there multi million fighters were out during down time, and subsiquently lost because of it. Other then that que the church quire to go sing at CCP, bout time we lost the GSC clouds orbiting gates and belts.
Poreuomai Minmatar Naval Protection Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:22:00 - [106] Originally by: isAzmodeus This is how a dev blog should be done. What is going to happen Why CCP thinks it is necessary Writer responds to forum questions. Respectful from both community and Dev. More dev blogs like this one, please. /signed
Frug True Foundation R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.02.15 19:30:00 - [107] Edited by: Frug on 15/02/2008 19:34:51 Thanks for answering my question Prism. I suppose I'll have to believe you when you say it's less efficient to only send cans that are on the grid than to send all the cans. It's not like I have a clue how grid mechanics work... But I was surprised to find out that the dummy client in theory knows where all the junk in a whole system is all the time. "the GY is Can Art, just like post-modernism is art" lol - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Felysta Sandorn Virulence. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:03:00 - [108] I'm guessing this makes the guy building the graveyard a sad panda...? Latest Video, Click Here!
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:18:00 - [109] Edited by: Stakhanov on 15/02/2008 20:17:52 Prism X ftw \o/ nice one ! Now get back to fixing the rest of Eve. Originally by: ivan draco we didnt want your post anyway
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:38:00 - [110] Finally!!! that is all :)
Daelorn Dark Cartel	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:47:00 - [111] Awesome. Most can art is horrible anyways, the only can art I've seen that I liked is the shark for FRICK (Anyone got a screenshot?) Besides that, wipe it all out!
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:54:00 - [112] Praise be to {insert your choice of deity or PrismX here} On a side note I might suggest that you guys(CCP) really need to spam this change across all viable methods. There will be, I am guessing, a lot of people who miss this notice and will come a crying to the forums the first day that their loot cans go missing. IMO this might even be worth a mass mailer to the registered email addys for accounts. I know a few people who are on break atm, who have all sorts of goodies stored in GSC in deep space. I saw it suggested by another player earlier in this thread, about the potential of having the first "clean up" day sending all anchored cans to the nearest station. I dont know how "easy" this would be to do for the coders, but it sure would save a lot bovine scatology that will pop up in the weeks and months after this change goes through. If it isnt too much work though, it would be very considerate of CCP to do this the FIRST CYCLE of the dustmen clean up, to have all personally launched cans go to the pilots personal hanger at the nearest station/outpost and all the corp launched cans go to the deliverys hanger at the nearest station/outpost. Regardless of who actually may control the outpost. If CCP decieds not to do this, it wont really make a difference to me, but I do see it as a smart PR move, if it doesnt absorb too many man hours to accomplish --
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:55:00 - [113] Edited by: Marlenus on 15/02/2008 20:55:57 I am a dedicated salvager and I spend a LOT of time searching out stuff that other people have abandoned and left floating in space. Prism, can you please revisit this part of your thinking? I think you're making the logic more binary than it needs to be. Originally by: CCP Prism X Why delete rather than unlock and allow others to scoop them up? It defeats the idea of the whole thing. We want to get rid of them, not just flip a bit in the database. How badly would it hurt, really, to take a little more time in getting the database cleaned? Why not flip that bit on the first pass, then after more time has passed, go ahead and remove the unscooped items? I hate can congestion as much as the next guy, and I'm delighted that it's going to be cleaned up. But there's an enormous amount of WEALTH that's going to vanish when the programmers flip the switch, and there's just no need for it. Why not allow the junk to come loose for a week (or three days, or 24 hours) before the cleanup routine sweeps it a way? Why not let players who value this stuff sweep some of it up in the interim? I've built my whole gaming experience around salvaging stuff that EVE game mechanics leave lost in space. I understand that the mechanics need to be streamlined, and I welcome those changes. But I don't understand why they can't be done in a way that leaves a role for me and for people like me. What's the downside, an extra week before the database reaches optimal cleanliness? (Admittedly, making unanchored cans probable or scannable again would also be a big help.) ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:57:00 - [114] Thus die the can-belts. In some places, this is quite a good thing (highsec ice belts in particular are just covered in the things, while 0.0 ice belts are actually very nice looking without the can spam). The only thing I don't like about this is that it kills the newbie profession of can salvager. Seriously, as a newb I went around with a Badger and collected unanchored GSCs and flogged them on the local markets for 300k. It was good money compared to L1 missions. I know a guy who literally bought himself a set of +3s from this. The best one was a can warning people about can scoopers (in general, not me in particular). It was a GSC, and unanchored in 0.5. 300k for me. I'd honestly prefer 30 days --> Unanchor --> 7 days --> Remove. This means loads of free cans sitting around belts for the newbies to harvest (some with surprises inside). -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.02.15 21:01:00 - [115] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis The only thing I don't like about this is that it kills the newbie profession of can salvager. {snip} I'd honestly prefer 30 days --> Unanchor --> 7 days --> Remove. This means loads of free cans sitting around belts for the newbies to harvest (some with surprises inside). Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not a newbie any more, and I still like to do this, only I do it in a transport ship and scoop ten cans at a time when I can find them. That's serious money even when the cans are empty. If all cans had seven days of scoopage available at the end of their anchor cycle, it would be so awesome. I'd be scooping all the time, looking for treasures. ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.02.15 21:26:00 - [116] Hi! Little idea around this ( posted again) Empire starbases needs starbase charters to anchor them. Compare it to container anchoring , which gives them his " Lifetime". The player had then the calculation of Charters( isks) + time to fill them up against incoming profit. If the time runs out it get collected from the local security etc... This would reduce the anchored containsers much more then giving them a 1 month lifetime+ the chance visiting them 1 time in this month. Combine anchoring cans with skills, to reduce the possibillty for players anchoring 100 of cans. Shuttles/ rookie ships etc...: add a "Tax" to keep peoples away from it float them out in space. 50 k each shuttle/rookie ship + 1 point after 10 points he had to pay 10 miliion isk Tax, because he is start to throw out his garbage into the space. Add a chance for players doing some public relations within stations / billbords, to compare the "can s on gates" ? Breg mac "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi " EVE FAN since 2003
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.15 21:31:00 - [117] Edited by: Solbright altalt on 15/02/2008 21:32:09 Please make this a high-sec function only. If this is applied to 0.0 stashes then there is going to be a lot of ****ed-off players.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 21:43:00 - [118] Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 15/02/2008 16:20:46 Originally by: Ephemeron People use cans for art because this game doesn't have any proper tools for creating art in space. If CCP thinks its a bad idea, they should give the community better tools, specifically designed for creating 2D and 3D art in space. No, the gameplay and performance takes precedence over useless bells and wistles such as this. If you want to create 3d art, use 3dmax or maya. Or simply draw/paint in RL. That is much easier than making art in a game. If your reasoning is correct, then there would not be development of Premium Graphics content, on which CCP spent a lot of time and money. If one game company can't add certain feature because it badly effects their game performance, then another game company will make it. In order to compete, they have to push their physical limitations in favor of additional game features. Letting people artistically express themselves in 3D world is extremely important for a healthy game community. Games like the Sims and Second Life heavily rely on that concept.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.02.15 21:55:00 - [119] Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 15/02/2008 21:55:00 Nice idea; I have some caches I'll lose, but oh well ... the empty belts will be nice ;) But seriously Prism, get together with ISD before they run a story extolling something you're deadset on getting rid of. And for God's sake don't touch New Eden! That is the obvious, easy, non-game-breaking, player supported exception. ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.02.15 22:19:00 - [120] Originally by: dev blog (Note: this is simplification again. The nature of caching mechanisms is that you can never cache everything so this does apply in a more complex sense.) does this mean pre-caching destinations is never going to materialize? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.02.15 22:52:00 - [121] Great Work! Nice Web blog! and Nice patch! A question though: What is the estimated gain percentage in saved CPU time or whatever from this patch? Originally by: CCP Whisper I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:09:00 - [122] I heartily endorse this product and/or service. The space junk must die! One thought: it would be nice if there was a mechanism that we as players could use to track our caches' lifespans remotely. One possible way to do this would be to have a list of objects anchored by us available on our character sheet, along with their locations and either an expiration date or a lifespan counter. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Tes Quin	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:09:00 - [123] yay? -- ccp/isd, when is my portrait comming?
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2008.02.15 23:24:00 - [124] Absolutely Fantastic! I've been hoping for something like this for years now, "Space Junk Must Die!" As to the graveyard... shouldn't be too hard to keep it. Just put up a tower, and keep it running. You may have to move it all intially, but it won't be hard to maintain it once it's moved. Though the thought of an NPC corp of trash-haulers is pretty amusing. Would certainly add some life to the world to see them roaming around picking up random stuff laying around. ------ begin signature ----- Little known Eve fact, The original race names were: Amarr Empire, Caldar Empire, Minmatar Republic, The Jovians, and The Remanaquie Federation.
Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:06:00 - [125] thank you ccp!! quick question if its not too much trouble: can you guys tally up how much junk is cleaned up in the first sweep purely for comedic value???
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:56:00 - [126] Originally by: Gemini Zero quick question if its not too much trouble: can you guys tally up how much junk is cleaned up in the first sweep purely for comedic value??? ^^this would be VERY great information to publish, I doubt that people truely understand how cluttered the database is by all these pieces of space trash. --
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.16 01:44:00 - [127] Originally by: Ephemeron If your reasoning is correct, then there would not be development of Premium Graphics content, on which CCP spent a lot of time and money. The premium graphics was designed to help display the tableau of space activity and combat that Eve represents. Not to be a high-res rendering engine for "art" made out of little white diamonds. Originally by: Ephemeron If one game company can't add certain feature because it badly effects their game performance, then another game company will make it. In order to compete, they have to push their physical limitations in favor of additional game features. Letting people artistically express themselves in 3D world is extremely important for a healthy game community. Games like the Sims and Second Life heavily rely on that concept. Oh noes, stop the presses! Different game companies make different games. Not only that, those games have different features that different people like. Who'd have thought it? Complaining that Eve doesn't have tools for artists is like complaining that you can't grab control of your general in an FPS mode in a Total War game. Originally by: Erotic Irony does this mean pre-caching destinations is never going to materialize? If by this you mean pre-loading stuff that's at your warp exit point while you are still in warp, I don't think it's really related to what this blog is talking about. In your case, the client would still load everything from the server as usual, just slightly earlier. The caching would come in on your own PC, mostly in loading graphics assets into memory before they are actually needed. This would be limited by the memory capacity of your own machine, rather than anything server-side. The caches being talked about in the blog are purely server-side, and come into their own when you have a large number of people requesting the same data in quick succession, rather than specifically speeding up an individual. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
WGD118 Eternal Pheonix Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.02.16 02:34:00 - [128] Great job its about time someone destroyed all those cans. But please ccp save the cemetery. It was a nice story and one that I fulling intended on supporting. Not only that but by now it is an eve landmark. Wow never thought I would be trying to save a cemetery in rl much less in a game.
Kynes Harkonnen HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.16 03:07:00 - [129] Well an idea for the graveyard, perhaps the owner could set up a volunteer system to have people help maintain it just by opening the cans, so 1 person doesn't have to maintain it by themselves? Would it even be possible for other players to keep someone's can alive?
Elyssa Spacebread Caldari MASS	Posted - 2008.02.16 03:33:00 - [130] i think this is 1 of the better changes yet. finally a end to 100 cans around 1 gate
Mulco Metalheads	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:39:00 - [131] Thank you!
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.16 05:33:00 - [132] Originally by: Azia Burgi sob can i enlist the help of some GMs to help unanchor all the graves and move them to a station until i can figure out a way to commemorate the dead that doesn't incurr a nerfbat? This, it is important! The poor fallen warriors (and noobscout-alts) will turn against you, PrismX. Rise, undead, RISE! On a more serious note..Cemetary?
Rho'varo Parvo Universalis	Posted - 2008.02.16 06:40:00 - [133] Generally, sounds good! I favour removing old junk. Specifically though, a longer timer on untended cans (90 days or 100 instead of 30) would be a bit less harsh on pilots that don't log in so frequently, while still going achieving most of the same clearing of unused rows from the DB. As a student, if there's a month (exam time?) in which I can't spend much time "in space", it would make me sad if I had to spend that brief time in space on a "chore": opening my few cans scattered around 0.0 so they don't vanish. A longer timer would reduce this sense of "chore doing" substantially. If you have "last accessed" data on cans now, I encourage you to compare the fraction of all cans that were accessed in the last 30 days to the fraction of all cans that were accessed in the last 100 days. I hypothesise that the fractions are reasonably similar, and thus similar data reductions would result. The suggestion of "X days -> unanchored -> Y days -> removed" seems optimal to me. I'd just like to see X = (90 or 100) and Y = (15 or 30), rather than much shorter periods.
Altar Mei Solstice Systems Development Concourse The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.16 06:43:00 - [134] Originally by: CCP Prism X Awesome Wish more of you guys would deliver like this. "Listen git this is the way it is, don't like it tough", you may end up with less customers but I'd still be here. :)
Narita	Posted - 2008.02.16 08:00:00 - [135] Originally by: CCP Prism X Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive exempting anything is it's probably because you're not a programmer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO game development. Please don't take this as an attack on your person, it's just a fact that we can't be the best at everything. No shame in it. Hey why not just remove everything and then you'll have a "perfect" database with none of us cluttering it up for you? I mean, did you just literally say what I think - "It's ok if you don't agree with me, we can't all be the best at everything." If that is what you meant I am indeed not offended, in fact, the hubris greatly entertains me. I like the idea but you're coming on a little strong here, buddy. We're interested in a nice game being produced in the end, not you as a programmer having abstractly beautiful data structures or an easy time of it. You're saying our priorities don't matter - well I won't say (and don't think) your priorities are irrelevant, but the truth is somewhere in between both views. If you can't grudgingly concede the mere possibility of any reason for having cans in New Eden, for example, it's just because of your hatred of anything that is mucking up your pretty DB. Nothing of any consequence exists in that backwater useless system except people's marker cans. It's an Eve institution, a tiny piece of permanence that exists nowhere else in the game. So why not leave 'em there? Clearly won't happen, and I can't say I'd go so far as to cry about it (I've never left a can there personally, either). Like I said, I like the idea overall, even though I'm a fan of "space junk" (my own caches plus finding cool things now and again) deleting it is worth the performance gains. But leaving one trophy, dead end system doesn't seem like that much of a concession to the sentimental among us. Or you could just not totally BLAST the sentimental among us for having the nerve to disagree. Kinda unnecessary, on top of deleting their cans, to dance on the grave and declare their entire viewpoints inferior too? Funny, but unnecessary.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar KULT Production	Posted - 2008.02.16 08:37:00 - [136] Good change. And funny how everyone first whines about jump in lag etc, and when something is done that can in fact greatly improve it, as I/O is about the slowest thing known to computer hardware, the whine starts to not do it. Oh, and imho "can salvager" isn't a profession. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Jei'son Bladesmith The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:06:00 - [137] well, i'll certainly be sorry to see the graveyards and can arts go, some people put alot of effort in to them, but its a small price to pay for cleaning up all the crap lying around here like the ad cans around gates/stations, the defunct storage cans in belts, etc. A simple timer (30 days sounds good for a start, tweaked as needed) is perfect - if you use it, it stays, if not, poof ☼☼☼ 12 Seconds ☼☼☼
Drolus	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:17:00 - [138] #1 This doesn't really help with the feeling of persistance in EVE #2 Why can't their be a use found for the hacking skill in this? #3 Hey guys, lets remove instas - that will fix the lag! Guys... Guys?
Neena Ailichi	Posted - 2008.02.16 09:31:00 - [139] Edited by: Neena Ailichi on 16/02/2008 09:32:45 Seriously, do you people REALLY care about some goddamn graveyard or do you jsut whine because you just can't accept that the devs are actually doing something good? First you whine about lag, then when they actually try to fix it suddenly can art is more important. Try to decide. You HAVE to make sacrifices to gain something, don't just expect CCP to shell out hunderds of thousands of dollars on new equiptment when they can do things like this. Seriously all your whining is ridiculous, the "feeling of EVE" might have been there for few month at the start but just say it, nowdays you might as well be playing it text based. If you get warm and fuzzy feeling when you see a shuttle floating in space... well... I don't know what to say to you
Eraggan Sadarr Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:12:00 - [140] I can only say: Finally...yipee Space junk as you call it, has always been a nuisance and resources hog.... So good riddance. And a nice way to do it with the expiry time on the containers. All hail the Need for Speed Eve Market Scanner
Poreuomai Minmatar Naval Protection Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:18:00 - [141] Edited by: Poreuomai on 16/02/2008 11:19:16 Originally by: Neena Ailichi Seriously, do you people REALLY care about some goddamn graveyard I visited the grave yard yesterday, there are hundreds of cans there, the line is so long that you can warp from one end to the other. I visited the New Eden system twice. It probably has messages from people who have stopped playing a long time ago. For many people, these things make EVE special. It's meant to be an inhabited world, not a visual representation of a database. Inhabited worlds have junk lying around which does not magically disappear all at once on the 1st of every month. Inhabited worlds have stuff which 'is just there' because someone put it there a long time ago. EVE is all about having a persistant environment. The question is, how can this be achieved and yet get rid of stuff which really is just junk, forgotten and no longer wanted.
A Sinner Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:20:00 - [142] Well good ideeas... but don't destroy that cemetary. ----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink"
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:08:00 - [143] T2 Fedos ftw! I don't see why any cans outside a POS forcefield should be protected though.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.16 13:29:00 - [144] Originally by: Shigawahhhhh Originally by: Von Druid I think the "generic space junk" shouldn't just disappear on the first downtime of every month. Say if I'm in a carrier with fighters out and just forget to call them in before downtime on the last day of the month (stupid I know), they'll be gone instantly after downtime. Whereas if I do the same on the first day of the month, I'll have a full month to search and pick my fighters up. If generic space junk had a timer too, this would be a non-issue. It doesn't need to be a full month, just a week or even two days. Just something to prevent stuff from disappearing from space after a single downtime. Agreed. Especially for fighters they need a bit longer life rather than just a first of the month rule. Adding a timer add something more to keep trace of. So more database space, not less.
Xenofur Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 14:26:00 - [145] Quote: Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive exempting anything is it's probably because you're not a programmer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO game development. Please don't take this as an attack on your person, it's just a fact that we can't be the best at everything. No shame in it. Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive reducing persistency is it's probably because you're not a gamer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO gameplay. Now to some original content: What you are doing here, is simply put, reducing the game's status as a unique and persistent world and bringing it closer to a heartless and streamlined space combat simulator. A game like this lives from the stories as much as from anything else, especially when the original developers are simply put overwhelmed with the task of creating more stories. It should be the duty of every mmo developer to give players the tools to create mroe stories, instead of doing the opposite. What you are doing here is maybe admirable for a programmer. You are going straight for the shortest, fastest, most efficient solution and refuse to budge in any from it. However that's a deplorable approach for any MMO developer who wants to pride themselves in creating a world, as opposed to an arcade game. Now, this criticism of your methods aside, let's be a bit constructive. Let's talk about a way for players to create persistent content without marring your databases: The main problem is that most space art requires many smaller objects to be put in space, all of which have to be loaded individually. The most intuitive solution i see there would be then to allow players to choose to load them. - Create a secondary cache on your servers with dynamic size for space art that lives independantly from the normal cache. - Create a an anchorable field projector item that marks all objects in its range as "art". Make it require a certain number of "exhibition permissions" per month, based on system security, the obtaining of which would cost something like 300 m ISK per month. - Make the normal cache and the cleaning procedure ignore all "art"-tagged items and only load them into the secondary cache. - Make an option in the client settings to load/ignore art. Aside from added workload in contrast to simply writing a little sql script, would this present any serious problems?
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:05:00 - [146] Originally by: Xenofur well written post Wow, and I thought I was the only one who actually don't feel all that good about this so called "improvement". I acknowledge that performance issues are important, but so is content, especially player created content as small as it might be in your eyes. Advertisement containers at the star gates might be an eye sore to some, but they are actually the only visual difference from visiting one star gate to 95% of all the others. Can art and the graveyard even more so. And as you can turn them off the overview they don't really bother me at all. According to the EULA EVE is a MMORPG. Prism X talks about what is important for a MMO, but seems to be completely ignorant to the RPG part. Shame. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Banni Vinda The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:30:00 - [147] Although some people are complaining that this removes a profession from the game (loot salvager), it does open the door for another: Caretaker. Not sure if the mechanics support this, but how about you make a business out of 'maintaining' other peoples' cans? They pay you a monthly fee, and you ensure that their cans get opened at least once a month. Naturally you'll have to build up trust before people give you their can BMs and passwords, but then isn't much of this game about trust, relationships, contracts etc? Given the diversity of folk that make up this game, I'm sure there's some willing to give this a try.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.02.16 15:46:00 - [148] Originally by: Xenofur What you are doing here, is simply put, reducing the game's status as a unique and persistent world and bringing it closer to a heartless and streamlined space combat simulator. That's actually very correct and interesting, and it's related to my advocacy for giving salvagers a shot at this junk on its way out. From a pure space combat point of view, terminating the junk ASAP and with extreme prejudice is obviously the right thing to do. And CCP is under a lot of pressure from the fleet battle people and the hard-core missioners to improve their experiences. But this is ALSO a MMO-Roleplaying-G. And the junk is important to many of the folks who play. Compromise is needed, not true ideological database purity. We all need better space combat, or the game will wither. But finding ways to get to that goal that preserves what makes the game fun for the folks who aren't hardcore combat monkeys? That's worth doing, too, if only so the combat monkeys will have more targets. Just cleaning the database ruthlessly on a fixed schedule has pretty harsh effects on the persistent world illusion. It needs to be done, but couldn't accepting some impurity (like, letting stuff come unanchored and drift for a few days before the space police have it terminated by the orbital mind control lasers) get us to the same destination with a bit more fun along the way? ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles
Gerome Doutrande Rue Morgue	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:58:00 - [149] Edited by: Gerome Doutrande on 16/02/2008 17:04:17 I think that from a technical perspective the cleanup is good and long overdue. I couldn't disagree with you more on the graveyard/can art issue. Your view of this is purely technical and lacks perspective. You should consider these things as real world monuments. Right now you are the road planning administration clerk who wants to tear down monuments because they obstruct car traffic. Doesn't really mix too well with the nicely worded stuff about a virtual society Hellmar has been speaking of.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:00:00 - [150] Originally by: Azia Burgi sob can i enlist the help of some GMs to help unanchor all the graves and move them to a station until i can figure out a way to commemorate the dead that doesn't incurr a nerfbat? its the very least they could do for you Trashed sig, Shark was here
Scifi Caldari Star Scream Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:15:00 - [151] Wow this one is a tough question. On one hand there is TONS of useless junk lying about cluttering things up. On the other it's taking down on the few things that lets you leave a lasting impact on the universe. The death of the graveyard is harsh though given it's recent news coverage...

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:19:00 - [152] Hey guys. Just want to show that I'm still reading this and talk a bit more about the graveyard which is an issue to you and myself. I'll be in your face and honest like I always am but I'll make room for a sentence explaining it because I don't feel totally right saying this. The graveyard, in it's current form, is dead. I'll just admit it here and now that I will not listen to any reasons as to why that shouldn't happen. I'm certain a whole lot of you think that is very irresponsible of me as you're the community and customers but you have to understand me on this: "I cannot grant exceptions. I cannot favour one party over the other. Hence I will not." I'm pleading with you here. I feel like fecal matter for destroying player driven content in it's current form. I could give very detailed technical reasons for why it has to happen but it wouldn't do anyone any favours. I feel like utter crap for destroying the work Azia put into this. I feel like utter crap for assuming the position of 'the man'. The governing body who's saying "It's my way or the highway!". Your points, that I'm ruining persistence of player driven content: It's right. I feel bad. But I cannot make exceptions. I cannot favour one endavour over the other. Ever. Just to iterate: I wont favour any one person, or her activities, over any other. I don't say I'm sorry. I never have. I hardly admit that I'm wrong when I obviously am. But I'm truly sorry about this. I should have put a blatant stop to this in the original thread. At least made some contigencies for me to fall back on here, but I didn't. I should have ensured that a feature I knew I'd be scrapping come the first opportunity would not have been highlighted to the players by lore. I should have done many things differently and now I'm in the situation that I have to ruin one persons work to do what I'm payed for. And I don't like it one bit. And to soothe my pain I'll go out on a limb here. I'll do my best to assist Azia in any way possible. At least to relocate the containers. I have no authority to say this and I will have to check with my superiors and coworkers before I can do anything. But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems. But please. Stop asking for things I can't morally live up to. Please. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Casey Windstrom Gallente Barts of all Trades Socius Tutaminis Velox	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:45:00 - [153] Firstly, I would like to say that I think removing the junk from space is a VERY good idea. All of the cans strewn all over have bugged me since the first day I've ever used Eve. I love the can art, it's neat, creative, and I think those that have the patience are very creative (and insane). However, it hurts all of us w/ the number of objects sitting in space. Aziz's graveyard is an awesome thing. Perhaps a new item could eventually be added to the game? An anchorable, for POS's, that /is/ a graveyard? I would love to have such within my own corp, personally, and would prefer not to use the corp hangar. Make it use a small amount of power (to keep the corpses.. ahemn.. fresh), and make it able to do something unique. PErhaps an epitaph for each corpse or something, and a small management display for it? Who knows. I also have a question: What will happen to the anchored containers currently in space? Will they be immediately deleted if they have not been used in 30 days, or will they gain an automatic 30 day limit, to give people time to retrieve them? Casey Windstrom Director of Manufacturing and Research Barts of All Trade
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:15:00 - [154] A little perturbed here that there was no further reaction to the suggestion of letting stuff come unanchored before it goes poof. That's equal and fair to everyone, and it gets to the same clean-database goal, while giving a bit more persistence and depth to player-generated content. ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles
000Hunter000 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:37:00 - [155] This devblog gets a 10/10!!! CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:57:00 - [156] Wow, a good change! AND the community has only been asking about this for over 3 years. --
Gane Green Gallente Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:25:00 - [157] Edited by: Gane Green on 16/02/2008 19:29:49 You people trip me out. They already removed a profession in the past due to the need for speed effort. That was the profession of making insta bookmarks. It was fun planning a route commonly used and creating the route. I would say that if they would cave to people wanting can art and a graveyard then they would have to take back the warp to zero function as well. On another note on the people worrying about fighters and drones being deleted during that one downtime each month. I thought fighters return to their drone bay when you crash? Wouldnt the same thing happen when down time hits? If you abandon your fighters right before that downtime then I can see an issue but you would be bringing it on yourself at that point. Ok fighters are covered what about regular drones. Im really going to care that someone lost 5 hammerhead II's when that downtime comes. Really you get one hour of warning that the server is going to shut down. This only effects macro ratters and I like it. The function of a carrier being able to jump lots of stuff in the belly of the ships it carried fell on deaf ears. It would blow my mind if they help the graveyard one bit. Can art makes as much sense as ascii art in the forums. If people spammed the forums with ascii art lagging the forums with their art would you complain or say OOOH thats pretty. If God was a number he would be over 9,000!!!!!!!!!
Frug True Foundation R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:32:00 - [158] I for one like the honesty, which you do at the risk of inevitable flame. Quote: But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems. You know to be quite honest I think that situation, in the end, is really between you and Azia is it? Making the news for ones effort is a decent reward. 5 minutes of fame and all that. Perhaps a small monument with an appropriate description? Heh, you could make the monument look like a can, just for irony. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
electrostatus Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:57:00 - [159] What if the server crashes or needs to be restarted at some time other then the usual scheduled downtime? Would any drones left out be removed when the server comes back online? ― Vexo M > He turned the drives up to 11
SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:59:00 - [160] Edited by: SiJira on 16/02/2008 20:03:21 ccp prism x maybe we can a clearer depiction of the result with some hard empirical data for us to understand how good the change is? as for helping azia im sure you can work it out Originally by: Frug I for one like the honesty, which you do at the risk of inevitable flame. You know to be quite honest I think that situation, in the end, is really between you and Azia is it? Making the news for ones effort is a decent reward. 5 minutes of fame and all that. Perhaps a small monument with an appropriate description? Heh, you could make the monument look like a can, just for irony. a monument to azia is not a solution to anything ccp prism x another question id like to ask you is if you can make the timers for cans be three months because this would remove 95% of all the forgotton and unused cans anyways and maybe set the timer to a shorter period as the patch comes so the database is cleaned up quickly but so that having cans secured in space doesnt become a chore Trashed sig, Shark was here
Xenofur Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:27:00 - [161] Originally by: CCP Prism X Just to iterate: I wont favour any one person, or her activities, over any other. I don't intend to put you down here, but you need to realize that the reaction you are getting is because you already are. You are favoring those who require mass fleet combat but can live with a world that is sterile and devoid of any signs of human occupation over those who would like to live in a world of their own creation. Originally by: CCP Prism X But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems. I think i made one, please at least deign it an answer, even if it's only: "Impossible."

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:41:00 - [162] Favouring those who prefer mass fleet battle by relieving redundant IO thrashing from the server cache services? Get serious. Improving server performance is what I'm payed to do. You'll find it will benefit everyone equally. Just because I went public with feeling bad for ruining Azias sandcastle doesn't mean I'm going to let you accuse me of favouritism with strawmen like that. And I said 'assist at least in relocating' to parahprase myself. I'm not offering any feature development. I'll send Azia an EVE mail regarding whatever I can do for her, if anything. The graveyard is not the focal point of this dev blog. I've already said it's not going to be exempt from proper game mechanics. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Llaneza	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:46:00 - [163] Folks, if you want to do art in space, do it the hard way: http://www.bmagic.net/gf.jpg
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:58:00 - [164] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 16/02/2008 21:00:03 Originally by: Xenofur Originally by: CCP Prism X But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems. I think i made one, please at least deign it an answer, even if it's only: "Impossible." I think the core of the problem is that there are tasks that are getting done by unsuitable techniques. The techniques used are anchorable container. The tasks can be summed up as "player-created content", and generally split in two kinds: 1) Art. This is from ad cans to full-fledged can art, designed to draw attention from other players. A possible solution to this would be to make billboard ads available to players. This could start out with just providing a way to add scrolling text to them, and expand into abilities to post graphics (composable like corp logos?). The interface could be quite similar to the corp ad interface, and allow influence for one region only. 2) Storage. This is mostly non-public (deep safe storages) or semi-public (grave yard), with various intents. Here, using cans just reveals a lack of a specific item, namely a single anchorable structure that provides "lots of divided space" - basically, a single item that can replace dozens of cans. This should provide multiple hangars, all accessible with separate passwords (or, in an extension, even setable to be accessible with correct standings, etc.). This would reduce the deep space storages from multiple cans to a single item each, thus reducing cache time; basically, the same as a single POS. Maybe there are other optimizations possible for this.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:59:00 - [165] can we get some stats after the first clean up saying how much was removed :) Join The Fight With Promo Today View The North Star!
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.02.16 21:09:00 - [166] Can we except a similar performance increase to when the bookmarks were removed? If so, can we get a month's notice so I can let my accounts expire?
Carcosa Hali Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.02.16 21:16:00 - [167] Edited by: Carcosa Hali on 16/02/2008 21:20:24 Well, first off.. Thanks, Prism X... I've long wondered if anything would ever be done. You rock... I honestly don't care for can-art, and if somebody's little pictures mean that much to them, they can spend 30 minutes in shuttle once a month to keep them.. shrug And Azia, I'm sure you can find a couple of trustworthy folks who would help you maintain your project that wouldnt abuse the password.. About the RL graves though.. That's tough, cause they really mean something.. But the answer is pretty simple; we make a charity. I think there is one moon out in New Eden (hard to find, but there) and someone could open an alt corp, place a small tower on that moon, and if I read the posts right, even offline it would keep all the gravemarkers safe.. Just name the corp/tower Eve-Graves and include a list of all the corps that volunteer to wardec anyone who messes with it.. You'll probably get VETO at least, and they'll bring in all the RP corps, and probably a few other good-hearted folks.. So it becomes a player funded and policed monument. I would donate to that.. -------------- Sometimes you lose it all... Sacrifice: Full Text
Spoon Thumb Caldari Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 21:29:00 - [168] The only solution would be a POS, but the question is how far from a POS can a can be to not be affected? Same grid and it might be possible, anything less than that would make things near impossible Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Krxon Blade The Phoenix Rising	Posted - 2008.02.16 21:31:00 - [169] Great news. Long forgotten junk will finally be removed. But, please leave New Eden cans. It was great experience to fly there and discover all those messages from unknown people. I understand your urge to ease load on database, but some things are too precious to sacrifice. Milky Way will continue to spin even if you decide to delete New Eden cans, but great amount of players invested time will be lost, and EVE will loose another bit of something which is already low: Places worth to explore, which aren't important to actual gameplay but which adds to immersion into game. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
TheDemonologist	Posted - 2008.02.16 22:02:00 - [170] Edited by: TheDemonologist on 16/02/2008 22:02:42 Originally by: Krxon Blade please leave New Eden cans /signed. While I can understand if you are going to clear out the cans, clean out all of them, but in doing so you will be loosing something that for me, and I'm sure many others, makes EVE what it is. Just because it's trash to someone, doesn't mean it's trash to another. "One man's trash is another man's treasure"
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.02.16 22:53:00 - [171] Originally by: CCP Prism X But please. Stop asking for things I can't morally live up to. Please. It's just a game... no need to feel so bad for enforcing that necessary change. Maybe you can code the sisi database to keep anchored cans through mirrors , so that can art stays there forever. Such things do not impact TQ gameplay. As for player driven content , it's up to you to create opportunities. Make factional warfare not suck , we have empires to conquer Originally by: ivan draco we didnt want your post anyway
Raivotar Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.16 23:05:00 - [172] Everything must go. Some people just don't get it. Im backing this 100%. ------------------------------------------------ I'm scissors. Nerf rocks. Paper is fine.
ForceM Gallente POS Builder Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.16 23:11:00 - [173] Originally by: Stakhanov Originally by: CCP Prism X But please. Stop asking for things I can't morally live up to. Please. Maybe you can code the sisi database to keep anchored cans through mirrors , so that can art stays there forever. Such things do not impact TQ gameplay. Wont be possible .. every sisi mirror is a DB copy of TQ .. would mean they would have to change the DB every mirror .. will be impossible to maintain btw .. 100% for this change ... tho i find 1 month too long .. max 2 weeks -----
KaiDoh Maru Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.02.17 00:15:00 - [174] Edited by: KaiDoh Maru on 17/02/2008 00:22:04 Originally by: Raivotar Everything must go. Some people just don't get it. Im backing this 100%. Signed & double signed- anything that reduces lag without harming actual game play is a good thing. can art etc may still exist but it will be temporary unless whoever set it up looks after it by opening cans & thus refreshing the timer- if it's really that good & important people will look after their art! As for people worried about forgetting to scoop fighters before the end of the month- if you are that careless you deserve to loose them. Honestly, if you can afford to run a carrier and replace drones lost in combat then you can shell out for leaving them in space and being careless. People will still have ample time to salvage these things if thats their profession. From a role playing or whatever perspective (as people seem to like these) nothing is permanent. Junk would float off in space, carried along gravity wells/ orbits etc etc [insert sci-fi explanation here]. This will also help those people who dump advertising cans for recruitment etc by keeping their adverts up to date and relevant- most of those cans are so old they serve no purpose but to eat up server resources as the corps no longer exist now anyway. Just don't even get me started on all those abandoned shuttles on my scanner... Say Yes to less space junk [X]
Jei'son Bladesmith The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2008.02.17 00:31:00 - [175] With regards to Can Art (and Graveyards for that matter) if we all REALLY want to keep it around, what if they are left password unprotected or given a common password or something so that visitors can help maintain them (put in/take out a unit of ammo to refresh the log or somesuch) considering the massive scale of many of these projects it would take alotta visitors to help maintain it, but on the flipside if many people are NOT visiting or helping, than by extension we can't very well complain if it goes away since we didnt help to maintain it. ☼☼☼ 12 Seconds ☼☼☼
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.02.17 01:37:00 - [176] Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 17/02/2008 01:38:53 Is a system of X time --> Unanchor --> Y time --> Remove possible? Or are all the unanchored GSCs non-unique DB entries? I doubt they are, as many have their own names, which would tend to point to them being individual unique entries, probably of the same type as the anchored ones. If that is the case (unique, same type as anchored), it shouldn't be too hard to modify to support unanchoring rather than deletion after some time. Then, a week later it is swept off by the NPC dustmen. Unfortunately, not being a DB programmer, I can't tell you what the exact performance penalty for such checks (and state changes + deletion rather than simple outright deletion once) would be. I just don't think you would see much significant difference between a 30day/7day timer (which removes unanchored cans after 7 days) then you would from a 30day/Downtime timer that doesn't unanchor them at all. After all, most of the truly abandoned cans have been abandoned for months, if not years. It would just take 7 more days to get the initial gain. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Narita	Posted - 2008.02.17 01:58:00 - [177] Originally by: Xenofur Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive reducing persistency is it's probably because you're not a gamer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO gameplay. Originally by: Gerome Doutrande I think that from a technical perspective the cleanup is good and long overdue. I couldn't disagree with you more on the graveyard/can art issue. Your view of this is purely technical and lacks perspective. You should consider these things as real world monuments. Right now you are the road planning administration clerk who wants to tear down monuments because they obstruct car traffic. Doesn't really mix too well with the nicely worded stuff about a virtual society Hellmar has been speaking of. I couldn't/didn't say it better myself. The feature is worth doing, but Prism, seriously dude. Just because it performs well to delete everything doesn't make it automatically good game design. And people who enjoy the atmosphere of persistence are not "evil", as you called can art. I appreciate the apology you gave, but the fact that you still insist any other point of view is just plain invalid is a little... completely wrong of you. There's a difference between "my way or the highway" (good) and "my way is the only right way to see this" (bad). You can do the former, and not insult anyone, but the latter is just arrogant and unnecessary. Why not say "you may have a point, but we're doing this, and if you give it a chance I'm sure you'll come around"? Being diplomatic won't hurt anyone, you know - you could reach out to the other side instead of telling them they're wrong for not being born with your same views.
Comex The Legion. Requiem-Aeternam	Posted - 2008.02.17 03:38:00 - [178] Well written post! Thank you. Just a thought about the graveyard, why not just relocate it to the presence of a star base? Suggestion - to extend on the NSF Since jump gates would be considered as one bottle neck, and a place people more often put up space art and ads, please consider further restrictions or/and clean up here. Practically speaking Concord might want the space around a gate clear to not disturb the sensitive equipment in the jump gate. Talking of the o mighty DB, clean/restrict all junk which otherwise would load for the client at jumping through a gate. In terms of coding this, without having any in depth of coding, could it implemented in a reverse/similar way like with the star bases? This could as well be considered for stations too (did someone say Jita?) As an endnote, this is not only a problem for eve, even in RL we have a problem with space junk and satellites falling out of the sky...
THEGREAT LOBO Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.17 03:42:00 - [179] Originally by: Krxon Blade Great news. Long forgotten junk will finally be removed. But, please leave New Eden cans. It was great experience to fly there and discover all those messages from unknown people. I understand your urge to ease load on database, but some things are too precious to sacrifice. Milky Way will continue to spin even if you decide to delete New Eden cans, but great amount of players invested time will be lost, and EVE will loose another bit of something which is already low: Places worth to explore, which aren't important to actual gameplay but which adds to immersion into game. /Signed.. Signed x 100000000000 The eve gate is the only place in the whole of eve that is a sight to see. The cans left there really speak about the past out eve. It is so nice heading out there and reading all the little msg's on cans. Many from people that no longer play. Any other stuff in space i don't care about, But don't take away the eve gate ones, You will make lobo cry
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.17 04:25:00 - [180] Originally by: CCP Prism X Favouring those who prefer mass fleet battle by relieving redundant IO thrashing from the server cache services? Get serious. Improving server performance is what I'm payed to do. You'll find it will benefit everyone equally. How about starting by only deanchoring. And add in the ability to scan for secure cans. Then see how fast the unused stashes stay in space for before getting too trigger happy on the delete button.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.17 06:17:00 - [181] Congrats on your first blog, CCP Prism X. I support this 100% And as you'll get to learn; you can't write a dev-blog without getting alot of whines. People always find something to whine about. I wouldn't be surprised if 95% of the Eve-population think this is a great idea, people have been asking for this for a very long time now.
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.17 07:57:00 - [182] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why delete rather than unlock and allow others to scoop them up? It defeats the idea of the whole thing. We want to get rid of them, not just flip a bit in the database. Anchorable structures and unanchored cans? Anchorable structures are not trash. We're not going to nuke any Starbases you've not visited in the last 30 days. Unanchored cans will be considered junk at the next downtime and promptly deleted. A better one for me to reply to ... Both these concerns would be addressed if the anchored cans only became unanchored after the timeout of inactivity. No need for auto-deletion at all. The unanchored items are all collectible by scavengers. As many have already said, this is a done thing even now. With auto-deanchoring in place, scavenging would only increase. I fail to see how this "defeats" the intent of your efforts.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2008.02.17 08:17:00 - [183] Question that isnt about the ca or the mgy Why not move up the non-can junk cleanup daily with the down time or is that to stressful on the servers? Or is it just to help out players recover should they be inconvienced at the sudden shutdown? Just wondering because there is players that are on odd ends of the world where the first of the month happens entirely different day and may not be able to accurate remember the uk's first of the month easy.
Niki Silver Ethereal Imperium	Posted - 2008.02.17 08:21:00 - [184] Edited by: Niki Silver on 17/02/2008 08:22:41 About friggen time, players have been asking for this for years. Now, please do the same thing with player assets. Don't dock in a station for a month, assets go bye bye. edit to add: Make the cleanup happen every downtime, get rid of those piles of noob ships so many thousands of ignorant and inconsiderate players leave at undock points each and every day. Ethereal Imperium [E-IMP] is recruiting! Please visit our webpage for more information.
Robert Sky	Posted - 2008.02.17 11:13:00 - [185] Yes!!! No more warping to a belt in empire and lagging out for 20 minutes! Not that I mine anyways.
Marlona Sky Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.17 11:14:00 - [186] Transfer all space junk to Jita to help with the lag there.
Puritalas Frame Space Salvage Incorperated	Posted - 2008.02.17 11:18:00 - [187] As a salvager, can I also suggest that the mechanics of the clean-up be altered slightly to enable those of us who enjoy salvaging to continue to do so ? Would it be possible to break the clean-up into a two pass process ? The first pass un-anchors cans and identifies junk that can be removed. This information is written to a file and then processed in the downtime in say 4-5 days time ? If the junk is gone, or the can is now anchored again then nothing happens, else off to the bin it goes. Technically, it needs a little bit of extra effort to code round the issue of the item either not existing or in the case of cans, being re-anchored in the meantime. But it would improve the options for those of us who engage in scavenging. If you canÆt, you canÆt, but if I donÆt ask then thereÆs no chance of it happening. Salvage Upgrade Idea\|Internal Slots
Poreuomai Minmatar Naval Protection Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.02.17 11:20:00 - [188] Originally by: CCP Prism X But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems. As far as New Eden is concerned, a solution could be some object where single line messages can be left for others to read. Also for the graveyard, a single huge container which has 'open & look-into' access only (except for a password holder) would mean that the graveyard owner would have to 'touch' just that one can every month.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.17 11:55:00 - [189] Rather than do it in this way, have the same expiration timers, however once timer is reached have containers default to unanchored and unlocked. Means we can salvage the containers and leftovers ourselves. Salvaging 50 containers in a belt at 300k per container nets 15m and makes us all warm and fuzzy knowing we have helped the initiative
Elseer Radak Gallente Ad Astra Vexillum Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.17 12:03:00 - [190] Edited by: Elseer Radak on 17/02/2008 12:05:12 Edited by: Elseer Radak on 17/02/2008 12:03:55 All, I think removal of space junk is a very good idea. Anything that makes the servers work better and thus make eve faster and more stable is a good thing, imnso. That said, I think discussions of player made content like the graveyard, the eve gate, etc. should be handled by the ISD event folks. IT would be cool if Valuable art and relics could be protected -- within the constraints of game mechanics. A quick idea that come to mind are: 1) Players convince ISD Event board something is worth saving or doing. 2) ISD agrees. Places a POS on a moon, can art, grave yard etc. is moved inside that pos. 3) ISD grants "Caretaker" rights to the maintainer or maintainers. 4) ISD places a beacon inside the system that points to the reliquary 5) Folks can now view, from outside of the POS, the reliquary One could also add a bulletin board that records names or passerby perhaps. I'm not certain how to fit this into game mechanics but if the idea is valuable enough then perhaps the ISD events folks can look into how to accomplish the goal without making the Database devs like CCP Saint work so hard :> edit: speling , clarity
Frug True Foundation R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.02.17 13:20:00 - [191] Since there's a bunch of posts asking for new eden to remain untouched I'm going say that I think new eden looks like a cheap junk heap. I don't have any sentimental attachment to "joe was here 2004" canffiti. Someone should fly out there and blast all those cans to bits the old fashioned way so prismx isn't held responsible. Originally by: "sijira" a monument to azia is not a solution to anything Nice to know you speak for her. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.02.17 14:14:00 - [192] I'm not sure why people keep asking for this or that to be kept around when PrismX clearly said that there will be NO exceptions whatsoever. It is technically not a viable option to make exceptions and it'd open a can of whines, when people start to demand exceptions for this or that because it was done before. As for people asking for unanchoring, yeah, right, I can almost see them frothing on their keyboards at the prospect of all the thousands and thousands of cans around free for their taking. While greed is a viable motivator in Eve, it shouldn't be supported in such a metagaming manner. All unattended containers get deleted. No exceptions. No unacnhoring. Less lag for everyone. It's greatness manifest! -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
Jita Dancer	Posted - 2008.02.17 16:54:00 - [193] Rather than just make them dissapear on the first of the month, make them salvageable on the first of the month. Delete any that haven't been salvaged two weeks later. Salvage should return a percentage of their contents based on your salvaging skill, and maybe some t1 salvage or something. Of course, if someone salvages something, and doesnt want it (200 x 800 Cap Charges that wont fit in the hold etc) its sat there in a jet can which lasts a couple of hours before disintegrating. This would give us one more thing to do in the game if we wanted, doesn't have to be a giant source of income.
padraig animal Minmatar MisFunk Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.17 18:17:00 - [194] Hmm i go for the option 3 times a month , no container fields anymore wow what a refresing sight must that be ... \o/ i say way to go ccp ,imo it may been few years back already ;)
Geana Tem SCREAMING MEME'S	Posted - 2008.02.17 20:02:00 - [195] Originally by: CCP Prism X Just to iterate: I wont favour any one person, or her activities, over any other. I don't say I'm sorry. I never have. I hardly admit that I'm wrong when I obviously am. But I'm truly sorry about this. Mate, you just ratched up - like, nine points - in my personal approval rating... I can see why you need to stick to your guns in this first instance. But, for the future the issue of exceptions for exceptional cases needs to be discussed by the gods. You can't give power away and keep it at the same time. ------------------------------- genders have been changed to protect the guilty and confuse the innocent
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.17 20:51:00 - [196] Originally by: Abrazzar As for people asking for unanchoring, yeah, right, I can almost see them frothing on their keyboards at the prospect of all the thousands and thousands of cans around free for their taking. While greed is a viable motivator in Eve, it shouldn't be supported in such a metagaming manner. What!? Why not? And how is this a metagaming idea at all? I mean it's all pretty clear cut and within realistic comparison even. Some pilots builds them, some pilots buy and deploy them, some pilots leave them abandoned, and some pilots salvage and sell/reprocess them again. Maybe even getting some loot from them. There is plenty of warning about the change and if you don't want someone else to loot your abandoned cans then it's a simple case of running back and taking them down yourself. It seems quite neat to me that this could be a mini-profession. I have a few cans around, not many, but I can see myself going back and checking those locations just to see how many cans are still there a couple of months after such a change just for curiosity. BTW, The big problem I have with Prism's planned change is it will wipe out many a deep space stash. Some of which will be very expensive.
Gunner Flashman Services	Posted - 2008.02.17 21:43:00 - [197] Cleanup is not a bad idea as far as stargates or belts are concerned, but removing anchored cans in the middle of nowhere on a grid that most likely only the owner of the can ever loads into his memory is just plain stupid imo. Also secure anchored cans can be a tactical issue, used to store ammo and charges. Hate to see that option being taken away from us. *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
Tido Maliyu Condottieri Industries The Economy	Posted - 2008.02.17 22:20:00 - [198] But what about the space-art? sharks? graveyards? Will they be removed? :o
Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.17 22:27:00 - [199] I think folks coming down on Prism need to look at it from his perspective. No doubt, the higher ups came to him and asked, "Need for speed...what can you do on the DB end?" His reply was to clean up the space junk. I'm willing to gamble hard ISK that CCP thought a while on the response, and knew it would mean the end of the graveyard, etc. In the end, they gave the green light to removing the junk. In a nutshell, it's not Prism's place to worry about game content, design, player creativity or history. His job is simple: keep the database running as effeciently as possible. I've got to applaude him on not backing down on the position. For the record, I think this is a good thing to do. I've never visited New Eden, or the graveyard, though I might try to hit them before the junk goes. But if they need to go for the sake of speed, let them become fond tales told by players to keep their memory alive. Also for the record, I've got 12 secure cans spread across two hi-sec belts that I rarely touch. They're there just in case an ore theif pops in. I'll be happy to touch them once a month to keep them around.
Windryder New Fnord Industries Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.02.18 01:42:00 - [200] Doesn't this mean that EVE is no-longer a "persistent universe" in MMORG terms? Why are all the cans loaded at session change anyway? Why aren't they loaded when you enter the same grid? You know, like the graphical models are? What about offline POS Towers? When do they get removed? I hate can-spam too, but I remember the first time I saw the can-art in Faurent; a fantastic picture of a cow jumping... seen from the right angle it was a cow jumping a moon. To lose that serendipitous discovery of something special just disappoints. One of the few things that makes exploration interesting is finding the junk other people have left behind. Look something does have to be done about can-spam... ...can you not do it with some user-operated unanchoring function? ...or set the timer to be longer on cans that no-one ever sees on their overview? ...shorter timer on the ones that are at busy gates? ...enforce anchoring standings every downtime? If someones/some corps standing drops below the system sec-level their can unanchors? ...make them use Starbase Anchoring Charters at a rate of 1 per day? I think that simply "sweeping them away" is a BAD IDEA. The cans and junk are one of the few ways that us players can actually ALTER THE ENVIRONMENT. It also seems very "deus-ex-machinas" in that there is no logical in-game reason for this stuff to vanish. I would really hate to see the works of art evaporate, the shrines at the EVE-Gate disappear, the cemetary vanish etc. I'm not sure I'd want to play in a game universe that's so sterile.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.02.18 02:38:00 - [201] This change is very cool. Is it possible to build giant secure cans in 0.0? I have hauled a lot of them out there but never remember having one built. They are pretty important to drone region alliances and hauling them is painful Also I understand that this will take some load off the server and also reduce lag when warping to a gate/belt that is usually covered in cans. Would it be possible to get some settings put in so that cans will never load graphically? or wrecks? every time a ship pops in a fleet battle there is a small amount of lag caused for me, could this be reduced by allowing people to remove the 3d representation of cans/wrecks (they are no longer colidable so are they really necessary visually?)
Dashboard Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2008.02.18 05:26:00 - [202] Originally by: CCP Prism X If I leave my fighters out, during downtime, the 1st of every month.. they'll be deleted. Yes. That's why we're giving you this information well ahead of time. And honestly, why would you leave your fighters out in open space during any downtime? You get an hours worth of time to at the least call them back into your bay. I'll honestly maintain that this forward notice, along with the 60 minute pre-DT notice, along with the fact that you really shouldn't risk being in open space during down time (much less in a mission fighting) should make this a non-issue. When I lived in Australia, downtime was right in my prime time. To get my money's worth I'd routinely play right up to the wire. And what's a mission? Is that like a fleet battle :)? Because I've been in a fair few of those in my time, including some that ran for hours before DT to hours afterwards. If you're really unable to find a solution, then the downtime warning message should be modified to announce that a Space Junk Cleanup will occur in 1h.
Jordan Musgrat Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.18 07:00:00 - [203] Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 18/02/2008 07:00:04 Originally by: Xenofur What you are doing here, is simply put, reducing the game's status as a unique and persistent world and bringing it closer to a heartless and streamlined space combat simulator. A game like this lives from the stories as much as from anything else, especially when the original developers are simply put overwhelmed with the task of creating more stories. It should be the duty of every mmo developer to give players the tools to create mroe stories, instead of doing the opposite. The idea is good, lots of crap could be cleaned. But get real, this is where you're headed. Originally by: Niki Silver About friggen time, players have been asking for this for years. Now, please do the same thing with player assets. Don't dock in a station for a month, assets go bye bye. Do you see the direction you're going in? You may be paid to maintain the database, but is that really what you need to be doing? Or should you be trying to create a better experience for the average player? Again, the idea is great. Now do the work you need to do to ensure that you aren't screwing people's work up. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Maximillian Power Minmatar Twilight Faction	Posted - 2008.02.18 08:46:00 - [204] Edited by: Maximillian Power on 18/02/2008 08:46:49 I say this with all due respect - the architecture is wrong not the number of items. You need to revisit the underlying reasons for caching this stuff because all you are doing is buying yourself another x number of players before you hit the same problem. It sounds to me like the architecture of loading everything into the session when you jump into a system is what is flawed. You could lazy load on warp etc - load everything that is on the grid, but only load overview enabled stuff off of grid etc. Anyway love the game - think you guys do a great job - hope you come up with a good solution Please note I am stating this with no real knowledge of the stuff. I'm just saying what it sounds like.
Bad Brown	Posted - 2008.02.18 09:05:00 - [205] How far from starbases? Sometimes we use cans positioned @ warp in points to de-cloak nosey pilots, we kind of like that feature.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.18 09:34:00 - [206] Originally by: Gunner Cleanup is not a bad idea as far as stargates or belts are concerned, but removing anchored cans in the middle of nowhere on a grid that most likely only the owner of the can ever loads into his memory is just plain stupid imo. Read the blog and dev comments again. PrismX has clearly stated that it does not matter which grid the can is in. It makes no difference whether the cans are outside a busy station or at a deep safe in the back end of beyond. It has the same cache-knackering effect. Originally by: Gunner Also secure anchored cans can be a tactical issue, used to store ammo and charges. Hate to see that option being taken away from us. And touching your ammo dump once a month is really too much effort? Ammo dumps that are actively being used will be unaffected. What it will get rid of is the large number of stores laid down by players and alliances that either no longer exist, or have no intention of going back to that part of space again. Originally by: Windryder Why are all the cans loaded at session change anyway? Why aren't they loaded when you enter the same grid? You know, like the graphical models are? PrismX already explained this. If you want to load only the cans on the same grid, you have to do proximity checks to decide which cans to load, and which not to. It's actually less server load just to load all the cans, than to decide which to load and which to exclude. Originally by: Maximillian Power You need to revisit the underlying reasons for caching this stuff because all you are doing is buying yourself another x number of players before you hit the same problem. Welcome to the world of computers. That's all you're doing with any code change, hardware upgrade, mechanic redesign etc. When you boil it right back, there is a minimum amount of data needed per can to describe that can within the game world. If you want to run that can within your game simulation, you either need to cache that data in local memory, or retrieve it from the DB every time it's needed. DB retrievals are always going to be slower than local memory, and local memory is always going to have a limited capacity. There is no architectural way around this. Originally by: Maximillian Power It sounds to me like the architecture of loading everything into the session when you jump into a system is what is flawed. You could lazy load on warp etc - load everything that is on the grid, but only load overview enabled stuff off of grid etc. Even if you find a way of determining which cans are and are not in the grid without loading all of them to check, it's still not a solution acceptable to any responsible server admin. The point of can art is to see it, so if nobody ever warps to that grid to see it, it may as well not be there anyway. And as soon as 1 person warps to it, all those cans have to be loaded, filling up the memory and causing the problems. What you describe is great when the load generated is proportional to the number of players present. But it isn't in this case - the cans take up the same cache space whether 1 player is looking at them, or 1000. It's also building in another obvious lag bomb mechanism. Alliances would anchor a grid full of secure containers, and have an alt warp to them to lag out the node every time they're losing. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

CCP Ginger	Posted - 2008.02.18 09:49:00 - [207] Originally by: Scifi The death of the graveyard is harsh though given it's recent news coverage... Hey guys, just popped in to clarify something that may or may not be clear :) News coverage of this sort is handled by the ISD Interstellar Correspondents team and they are allowed to write about player news that comes across their way, we dont restrict what they can write about so a news item isnt an official CCP endorsement of any player activity, its just journo's writing about something of interest. Hope that clears things up, that being said, my apologies for the interruption to your discussion and please carry on. Lots of love, Ginger.

Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.18 10:03:00 - [208] Originally by: Matthew Ammo dumps that are actively being used will be unaffected. Until a can is missed. Then poof! If this burden is placed on the player then maybe the pilot and/or corp needs an "secured assets" list to track all the refreshing that will be needed. Quote: What it will get rid of is the large number of stores laid down by players and alliances that either no longer exist, or have no intention of going back to that part of space again. You might be surprised how fast those would be cleaned up with just deanchoring in place instead of the planned deletion. At the very least, start with the less destructive approach before going all-out lethal.
Kransthow AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.02.18 11:43:00 - [209] This is all very nice and good but how much will it actually do to combat lag?
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.02.18 12:05:00 - [210] Good move. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ... General Aesthetics Changes Thread
Frug True Foundation R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.02.18 12:07:00 - [211] Edited by: Frug on 18/02/2008 12:10:14 Originally by: Matthew Welcome to the world of computers. That's all you're doing with any code change, hardware upgrade, mechanic redesign etc. Welcome to the world of MMO development, where some changes are short term and some changes are long term. The sweeping statement that all changes are equal in value is absurd. Originally by: Matthew When you boil it right back, there is a minimum amount of data needed per can to describe that can within the game world. If you want to run that can within your game simulation, you either need to cache that data in local memory, or retrieve it from the DB every time it's needed. DB retrievals are always going to be slower than local memory, and local memory is always going to have a limited capacity. There is no architectural way around this. You have failed to read this topic, and should not be posting about issues you either don't know or haven't thought about. There are almost always other architectural options to be considered. In this case prismx has even outlined a possible alternative. Quote: The point of can art is to see it, so if nobody ever warps to that grid to see it, it may as well not be there anyway. And as soon as 1 person warps to it, all those cans have to be loaded, filling up the memory and causing the problems. Again, you should probably go back and re-read everything. The client is being sent all the cans on system entry. We're not talking about server side caching. Currently "all those cans have to be loaded" anyway. Quote: It's also building in another obvious lag bomb mechanism. Alliances would anchor a grid full of secure containers, and have an alt warp to them to lag out the node every time they're losing It's funny you should say that as if it's never happened. In eve. With cans. By the way it's a petitionable exploit afaik. Also, btw, a whole lot of fleet fights happen at gates. Guess what you have to load when you jump through a gate. I'm not saying prismx isn't right when he gives reasons why this is the best approach. The only people who can judge this situation are the devs really. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2008.02.18 12:24:00 - [212] Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 18/02/2008 12:26:53 I think the ISD news should be checked against upcoming CCP plans. Even though ISD isn't CCP, the distinction isn't really obvious. It's both "Eve", after all, isn't it? Out of curiosity - how much junk is actually outside of the belts? We don't see it, obviously. Can art is a part of gameplay as well. It adds to the game just the same as high-sec gankers or ore thiefs do. Wether one likes it or not, it should be allowed to evolve. As far as I know, escrow(and later contracts) evolved out of something different too. We do want a living game, not a static one, right? If everyone moved their can art to a POS(not likely, I know) - would that actually solve anything, or just move the problem? Or if someone truly took up the work of touching the cans every month. As others said, we'd need a new item that can be anchored and ideally consists of multiple fragments, but only takes one entry in the relevant database/cache/whatever. [ edit ]To clarify: I'm not saying you should save existing can art - I understand why it has to be scrapped. I'm just saying, don't just scrap it, re-invent it. Otherwise people will find new ways to express themselves. And the cycle will start all over again.
Pytria Le'Danness Placid Reborn Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.02.18 14:31:00 - [213] The plan sounds like a good thing to me. I have at least half a dozen cans scattered around the universe that I dropped down (usually with a cheap ship nearby) in case I get shot up and need a replacement fast. Of course it would terribly wreck my gameplay if I were unable to access them - after all, I totally forgot about them for a year or longer and thus they are terribly important to me (for the sarcasm-impaired: I could not care less for them). One suggestion though: The OPTIMAL solution would be to send out an EVEMail "Your container <name> in <System> at <bookmark> has been deemed space trash and will be used to feed starving furriers in <interval> days." Ideally add the password for it too so the owner can remove it. Thus I can decide if I want to fetch the stuff or not. Can art - it's nice for a while, but after you've seen it 100 times or so whenever you jump into a system... An expiry system could cause the artists to update or tend their art and thus seems to be a good thing. As for the graveyard - creating one is a great idea and the player is to be commended for the effort he took there. A possible (although slightly expensive) solution might be to move the GY to a POS created just to preserve the GY. Depending on implementation it might not even need to be fueled. Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn"
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.18 15:01:00 - [214] Originally by: Frug Welcome to the world of MMO development, where some changes are short term and some changes are long term. The sweeping statement that all changes are equal in value is absurd. Of course not all changes are equal. But all changes are merely buying time until you hit the wall again. The only difference between changes is in how much time it buys you. Originally by: Frug You have failed to read this topic, and should not be posting about issues you either don't know or haven't thought about. There are almost always other architectural options to be considered. In this case prismx has even outlined a possible alternative. Did he really? I saw him explain why several suggested alternatives are not viable, but I have not seen him state a single alternative as being a viable one. And I've just read the blog and all his posts again to make sure. Originally by: Frug Again, you should probably go back and re-read everything. The client is being sent all the cans on system entry. We're not talking about server side caching. Currently "all those cans have to be loaded" anyway. Now it's your turn to go back and re-read. That particular part of my post was addressing Maximillian Power's post on implementing an "only load the current grid" system for cans. By that point in my post, I had already clearly stated that I was working on the assumption that that could be done, and exploring the consequences of doing so. Originally by: Frug It's funny you should say that as if it's never happened. In eve. With cans. By the way it's a petitionable exploit afaik. Which is all the more reason not to give them another way of doing it. Originally by: Solbright altalt Until a can is missed. Then poof! If this burden is placed on the player then maybe the pilot and/or corp needs an "secured assets" list to track all the refreshing that will be needed If you're actively using it, you won't "miss" it. If you've gone more than 30 days without needing it, I wouldn't consider that to be an active stash. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.02.18 16:02:00 - [215] I think this is a great move and fully support it. People are going to whine either way; "I can't get to my ammo dump" or "All this lag made me lose my ship" To be fair, you can't have it all ways and this seems like a sensible way of doing it without having to spend a load more cash on hardware. Unless you want your subscription to go up??? From what I understand only things OVER 30 days old during that downtime are removed, so people worried about leaving fighers out over DT - don't. Unless you plan to for 30 days or more People worried about finding their junk again??? Why? If you don't know where it is already what's the problem. Just BM it and put it in a junk folder. If it's lost now, it's lost then! No need for an asset list, just use a BM. What Prism X says makes perfect sense. Contrary to several comments; Eve's arcitechture ISN'T flawed at all - do you know of many other MMO's that aren't sharded/mirrored? I don't! Those that aren't also have much poorer performance than EVE! The only other solution is to reduce the number of systems per node and add more nodes to the entire cluster. As CCP hardware contains solid state discs (yup, no messing around here) it's damn expensive to purchase/install and maintain. Solid state is used to help reduce lag, where mecanical drives under heavy access would suffer. But solid state has a limited read/write cycle. Another solution would be to use less expensive hardware - and literally flood it with proxies/caches - but even the most update-to-date "classic" servers (SCSI raid, as opposed to Solid State) aren't exactly cheap! Certainly though it's more links in the chain, increasing the possibility of a screw up. In short, there are probably ways to deal with it without killing the junk - such as adding more servers/caches/proxies. The reason that probably hasn't been done is because it's not cost effective. A few lines of code, a monthly process and the lag is reduced as less crap is fetched from the DB. Cost effective, clean, simple and nicer viewing for everyone involved. Plus your subscription doesn't go up to pay for more hardware. I fully support optimisation rather than throwing money at the problem.
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:04:00 - [216] Sigh. Sales vs postsales. Engineering vs content. One man's trash is another's treasure. Bits of history wiped out, eve digesting itself. All must go to sustain growth. Pray to the infiniband god.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:10:00 - [217] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 18/02/2008 18:10:23 Hello everyone, Again thanks for taking time to read the blog and give input. I might not always comment on it or agree with you but I do read it. Some questions came up about when the current junk would be deleted and if I'd release the numbers. Answers are: A month after release for anchored containers. The day after release for unanchored containers, the 1st of the next month for the junk. The number of deleted items will of be logged but whether we release them is not up to me. I'll see if I can't release some basic numbers but I don't promise anything. Seems I never do. Some suggestions have surfaced. I'll risk mentioning some and my take on them. If I didn't mention your suggestion it is because you need to buy more accounts, build up a lot of new mains and then use them to support your agenda. Moving right along. I spoke earlier about the issues raised on the graveyard and the New Eden system. Well I didn't really mention New Eden, but now I will. Initially I felt rather bad about the thing. It's both player driven lore in a sense and my blog does spell it's doom.. in it's current form. I dwelt on it a whole lot but now I've come to realise that it's only player driven lore as long as it's driven by players. You will have a 30 day period to touch up those cans for both issues. It might sound corny but I see it as a way of drawing people closer together around certain goals. It's not like the implementation doesn't give solutions. You just might have to work together to achieve them. I think it's kinda cute. There have been requests for some sort of assets in space. As far as I'm concerned you already have that in the form of bookmarks. If you don't keep track of your stuff than I'm not going to. I can already query for it in the DB so I don't even have to ask you where it is so I can has it. No seriously. If you lost your stuff, i'm not going to code a lost and found feature. I'd rather free up IDs. The anchoring skill was mentioned. I don't mind adding skills that would increase the time. Especially not if we would limit the total amount of anchorable containers with another skill. That would probably just apply to empire tho for lores sake. It wouldn't happen now but I'm all for limiting Empire anchors further. It's not my decission though. I'm a tech geek, not a content designer. I think about things they don't think about and vice versa. As always, I can raise the issue though. Some people mentioned that the first of every motnh is rather awkward. I agree to a certain extent. I can see the time difference from GMT making it somewhat unclear to begin with but I honestly do not think it's all too bad. I eat pee shark every now and then, why can't you compensate a bit for time zones? But that funny aside. I'll admit it's a little, as someone put it, deus ex machina-like. I'm all for investigating the potential of putting some sort of decay on ships rather than a rigid timer. If it turns out they all have these attributes persisting already I see no reason not to have things decay over time and thus be removed by that. Lore could say it's them Fedos. Who doesn't love Fedos?! But seriously, that idea above is very interesting to me. Someone already mentioned how far reaching impact the idea of decay in an MMO might have. But it's a totally huge discussion and I'd have to do a bit of research on the validity of it, as well as being material for a different discussion. So, nifty idea. Might be too hars. Might be a total paradigm shift. Still moving right along. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006


CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:10:00 - [218] I feel like I'm talking too much now... Lastly, there has been a lot of mentions about salvaging cans in one form or the other. I've read different ways of saying this and there is some merit in the discussion. But please, rest assured that I don't intend to give anyone any easy ISK. The secrets of the ancients will go [yellow]poof[/y] with Trinity 1.1. No free loots. Nada. However, the idea is kinda awesome the way I see it. After the initial 4 years of trash is gone and people are used to the idea I'm all for reviewing it. We're talking no promises, of course, and the future at best. But having cans un-anchor and thus making them blow-up able and looted is fine by me. Currently it would defeat the purpose but I'm not eternally set in stone (Unless I get a reason to, then you're damned for all time). It could really all tie into an interesting mechanic between CONCORD sanctioned anchors and free non-sanctioned anchors, space decay and can salvagers.. and hacking! It could have far reaching effects which I can't conceive because... I'm a tech geek. But I will definetly mention it to design. Space vultures sounds way cool tbh! Anywhos, this kind of closes the blog for me. Officially at least. I'll continue reading your posts but I don't promise a new summary. I'd appriciate if my posts could influence the direction the discussions take but I can't demand it. I will however mention that my input on player driven content being player maintained{/i] is the last you will get from me on the issue. But I can't really stop you from making that the focal point of your posts. Fly safe. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer [i]Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:12:00 - [219] On Can Art... What is the most fun, Viewing it or Making it? I have seen can art before, I normally look and smile and head on my way... but some player took the time out of their busy game play to set it up... they enjoyed it, they had fun... because if it was not fun it would not happen... as I see it, Prism X is allowing the Eve Player Artists to practice more... No longer will I see "Die Noob" every few days, because it will be gone next month, an empty slate, a blank canvas, waiting for the artist's touch with a new, and perhaps better design... Perhaps the cans will spell out "Prism X was here!" (I double dog dare you ) As for the Cemetery and Eve's Gate, I guess we have until the deployment of 1.1 to visit them in their current state... or a month beyond that point... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Jaabaa Minmatar Dental Drilling Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:24:00 - [220] After almost 4 years, CCP finally delivers I draw your attention to Hellmar's blog from March 2004, Clean up you cans please. -- EVE Mobile Skill Planner V2 http://evemsp.sourceforge.net/
Azia Burgi Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:39:00 - [221] Edited by: Azia Burgi on 18/02/2008 18:39:57 Prism: you still haven't told us the range of the proposed exemption zone around POS. Also you did promise to evemail me... still waiting... another question arises are corpses themselves considered space junk and will they be treated as unanchored/standard cans and be removed at the next downtime after their creation? Azia Burgi http://azia.geekandproud.co.uk BP Profit Calculator EVE Cemetery
Xenofur Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:44:00 - [222] Edited by: Xenofur on 18/02/2008 18:44:40 Please remember to change the word "game universe" to "space combat simulator" in the tag line at the top of the website and remove the paragraph "1.3 What does the term "persistent world" mean?" from the FAQ, as those parts now constitute false advertisement.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:55:00 - [223] Xenofur: Get over yourself. I'm sure you have very valid points in your twisted troll universe but if persistent storage cans was all the persistence there is to EVE I wouldn't find EVE interesting at all. Azia: I will. I just want the idea of player maintained player driven content to settle in first. I'd hate to have it degenerate into abandoned temples who are just memories of ancient glory. There's time. No worries. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.18 19:27:00 - [224] Originally by: CCP Prism X However, the idea is kinda awesome the way I see it. After the initial 4 years of trash is gone and people are used to the idea I'm all for reviewing it. We're talking no promises, of course, and the future at best. But having cans un-anchor and thus making them blow-up able and looted is fine by me. Currently it would defeat the purpose but I'm not eternally set in stone (Unless I get a reason to, then you're damned for all time). Anything to reduce brittleness is a bonus in my books.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.02.18 19:57:00 - [225] Originally by: Prism The Space Junk must die! Thank you! And the sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Dungheap Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.02.18 20:36:00 - [226] stick to your guns, prism. while the loss of eve history is regretable, i believe most players will end up supporting this if it results in a marked improvement of game play. tho it might be a good idea for you not to undock for a few days after the first cleanup..
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2008.02.18 21:08:00 - [227] Originally by: Kessindarinia Originally by: Tajidan why not scratch the idea of just removing em and instead make em accessible to everyone after a month non-usage? would create a new miniprofession, spacejunker, ppl could roam around and scoop the socalled spacejunk. I like that Idea more than just removal - unlock it after 30 days, remove after 60 that would be cool. Yes, yes double yes!
Lui Kai Phoenix Aeronautics	Posted - 2008.02.18 23:53:00 - [228] Prism X is my new favorite dev ever. ----------------
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2008.02.19 01:06:00 - [229] While good for the server, (years after people were telling ccp to get rid of old cans) the loss of new eden can's (a dead end system where session changes do not matter if there a few seconds long people won't care so there's really no excuse to put on an exception to this system unless you haven't built in the ability to turn this feature on and off per system basis=bad software design), this neutralises any good feeling from the community for the idea. ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Xykanth Roldeir	Posted - 2008.02.19 07:14:00 - [230] Another option for cans would be too make it so they don't even load if you don't have an overview option checked to show them. You could also change cans so that they have no effect on ships that happen to hit them so if you do have that overview option checked you would not know that a can was even there. This would however happen to mess up the warp in decloak technique. But then again you were also talking about the possibility of cans around a POS behaving differently so maybe cans in such an area could be forced to load and have mass despite the overview settings. Also in regards to things such as the graveyard. You did mention that cans would have a last access date. Well I bet after that article Azia has probably started to get tons more old meat. Well we do have corporations in the game and all someone has to do is go access the can to reset the timer. Well have Azia's corp and friends keep going to the cans all on a monthly basis to keep the graveyard and other such art alive.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2008.02.19 08:49:00 - [231] Edited by: Kyra Felann on 19/02/2008 08:49:39 Originally by: Jowen Datloran According to the EULA EVE is a MMORPG. Prism X talks about what is important for a MMO, but seems to be completely ignorant to the RPG part. Shame. Because capsuleers, the elite of the universe, who control fortunes unimaginable to most people spending time dropping metal cans with messages or in some shape makes sense from a role-playing perspective? Quite the opposite, I find it very disruptive to any sense of immersion seeing all those yellow diamonds everywhere. That makes as much sense as leaders of nations or CEOs of multinational corporations spending time dropping empty soda cans on the ground spelling out words. And if they did that, you know what the police would call it? Littering. And that's exactly what it is in Eve also. This game is about interstellar trade, a vast and complex space-based economy, spaceship combat, and carving out empires, not dropping cargo containers in space.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.19 09:02:00 - [232] Originally by: ToxicFire While good for the server, (years after people were telling ccp to get rid of old cans) the loss of new eden can's (a dead end system where session changes do not matter if there a few seconds long people won't care so there's really no excuse to put on an exception to this system unless you haven't built in the ability to turn this feature on and off per system basis=bad software design), this neutralises any good feeling from the community for the idea. From Prism X's explanation, it doesn't really matter how many session changes there are into New Eden. Even one session change can cause significant performance problems. Because it only takes one session change for all the cans in new eden to get cached, flushing out details for any other system that happens to be hosted on that node. So not only will New Eden itself be slow, it will slow down the 40+ other systems potentially sharing a node with it, as those systems will all need to re-cache their own information every time someone jumps into New Eden. You'd have to give New Eden it's own dedicated node to stop it slowing down other systems, and there aren't enough nodes to just go handing them out like that. That's why there can't be any exceptions. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Uncle Mo	Posted - 2008.02.19 11:35:00 - [233] Edited by: Uncle Mo on 19/02/2008 11:35:42 I hate to add just a simple comment with out much explination, but I'm going to anyways. All space junk should be deleted at DT. There is no good reason to leave containers in space. Eliminating all space junk at DT will not alter main game mechanics one bit. And no, advertising for your corp, or creating a 'cov ops barrier' is not a main game mechanic. Absolutely no need for the 30 day timer.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.02.19 12:21:00 - [234] Originally by: CCP Prism X I feel like I'm talking too much now... Lastly, there has been a lot of mentions about salvaging cans in one form or the other. I've read different ways of saying this and there is some merit in the discussion. But please, rest assured that I don't intend to give anyone any easy ISK. The secrets of the ancients will go poof with Trinity 1.1. No free loots. Nada. Makes sense. There's a shedload of cans out there, and you'll get the greatest benefit from whacking as many as you can at one go. Originally by: CCP Prism X However, the idea is kinda awesome the way I see it. After the initial 4 years of trash is gone and people are used to the idea I'm all for reviewing it. We're talking no promises, of course, and the future at best. But having cans un-anchor and thus making them blow-up able and looted is fine by me. Currently it would defeat the purpose but I'm not eternally set in stone (Unless I get a reason to, then you're damned for all time). Ahh the inevitable review of the changes. By then most of us will have forgotten this, I believe (I know I will have despite my advocacy of unanchoring first). But seriously, will we actually see your second dev blog when you guys do review this? Or will you simply turn me pink for a few days for abusing you about it? Originally by: CCP Prism X It could really all tie into an interesting mechanic between CONCORD sanctioned anchors and free non-sanctioned anchors, space decay and can salvagers.. and hacking! It could have far reaching effects which I can't conceive because... I'm a tech geek. But I will definitely mention it to design. Space vultures sounds way cool tbh! Interesting. . . Make sure they're probable if you do this. Originally by: Uncle Mo Edited by: Uncle Mo on 19/02/2008 11:35:42 I hate to add just a simple comment with out much explination, but I'm going to anyways. All space junk should be deleted at DT. There is no good reason to leave containers in space. Eliminating all space junk at DT will not alter main game mechanics one bit. And no, advertising for your corp, or creating a 'cov ops barrier' is not a main game mechanic. Absolutely no need for the 30 day timer. Ammo/Cap Booster Cache. Loot Cache. Fuel Cache. If you don't have consistent access to a station, cans are what you get to use. I don't even live in 0.0, and I can see the incredible usefulness of having such things strategically placed. Particularly if you're using an AF to rat. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.19 13:49:00 - [235] This is the best thing I've seen in a long long time! Awesome work! THANK YOU CCP!!! OMG! --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
manasi Caldari Valhalla Navy Technical Institute	Posted - 2008.02.19 14:53:00 - [236] hallelujah! Thank goodness get rid of all that crap! An extremely good idea CCP!
Hugh Ruka Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.02.19 15:25:00 - [237] I have to admit I am fully behind this change once I let my head cool and read the blog a few times. Generic junk will be deleted once per month (taken from the devblog), so I'll have one month time to search and salvage abandoned drones. And the graveyard issue will settle itself. Look at it as a normal RL GY. Those who pay for service will have their can anchored in a POS maintained by the GY service. Those that do not pay, have 30 days of GY existence and they (or for lack of better word their relations) will have to periodicaly visit the GY and renew the can. This will accomplish 2 things: 1. living for the GY service and 2. kind of RL GY. Those who get forgotten and not visited will vanish. I think the GY is in no way endangered, it will just shift in form a bit. Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Lalani Nehai	Posted - 2008.02.19 15:25:00 - [238] Just to add my few cents worth. The graveyard should not be excluded from having the cans maintained(think of it as nature taking back a grave yard that is not maintained, whether by caretakers or family.) How many graveyards are lost to time because of neglect in RL? Same with all that space art. It needs to be maintained and cared for. Even the sistine chapel does need a touch up every now and then.... I really like the idea of being able to salvage cans that time forgot. It could be a creative way for eves citizens to do good for the environment.
Lougra Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:13:00 - [239] For sure we need to get rid all of those floating cans form space. But to do that we (you) must give something in exchange. Anchored cans so far, used to store ore or even ice in empire space and loot/fitting eq in low space. Lonely miners so far used to anchor multiple cans in space to store the mined ore/ice (this is already known). By fixing only one thing, we (you) can solve some big problems within eve. Lets say that you give to mining barges a big cargo space (lets say 20km3) which will be accessible by others only while in gang/corp (like carrier style). By this, every miner will stop screaming about the rediculous cargo space in mining barges. Barges will have a very good reason to be that expensive for the greatly inferior in shield/armor/hull than the same class ships. (take a look at covetor. the ultimate junk ship) Macrominers will be forced to abandon NPC corps if they want to avoid their ore being stolen by others. You wont need to give one month of "life time" to anchored cans which even in this case i think is too high. (there is one exception to anchored cans inside/near forcefields) Totaly, 5 fixes in one move (i hope it was constructive) Carebear is the surname that others gives you, if you enjoy to play eve, in other way than the rest want YOU to play it.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:10:00 - [240] IMHO this is a very hard blow to the "living out of a can" lifestyle. Touching up cans every month. Sure. But the drones? You can't reload drones from a can. The way it's been done up until now is that you used a carrier to deploy a small cloud of drones and then just scooped another one when you needed it. This on the other hand means that players are more reliant on stations and POSes to resupply. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Angry Dan Caldari Widowmakers	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:17:00 - [241] In general,I support this feature. I have a number of bm's for cans in providence that I know haven't been accessed in over 2 years. More to the point, a number of these are private cans, not corp ones. Corp ones can be checked using the corp interface, private ones can't. Can we get a your cans are here feature please? I have numerous caches deployed in a certain region. These are stored at positions located through bookmarks. Why should these go? You can't probe them, they can't be easily found. In fact, there's no reason for them to be in the cache unless I am in system. AS the server does log when I arrive in system, can't the SQL check for my deployable's, and if there present, dump them in the cache until I leave? I also deployed a number of cans with warning messages when I was on the command team for a 0.0 alliance. These cans served a useful purpose (IE, advising who owned the space, our rules of engagement, and that if you warped to a moon and got owned, that was your problem. Stupidity wouldn't get you a refund). These have drawbacks. They cause lag, there not noticeable and frankly, can't convey enough info. They are, however, a useful resource. Can we get a BULLETIN BOARD that requires anchoring, has a reasonable amount of HP (IE, not something that takes a dreadnought to remove, 2 minutes with a BC or BS should be enough), and will stay as long as the owner has sovereignty. With a limit of 1 per grid (or 1 per gate in system) it's not going to cause that much lag. I would also only allow a small text box in space, getting the full message would require a show info request. Again, this would cut down on the server traffice, as your not going to have to spam 5K of text at me unless I request it. My request list is simple. Delete cans at gates, planets, unused moons, stars, stations and belts (yeah for action) Exploderise all rookie ships and shuttles that are abandoned in space Only cache the cans that are at global bookmarks, cans that are hidden should only spawn when the owner jumps in. Alliance bulletin boards please Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Flor deMaria	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:20:00 - [242] Is there any way to retrieve the password for a container I anchored if I have forgotten it.
Ket Halpak Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.19 23:06:00 - [243] Your killing the new eden system :( The new eden system is a place most people go and see in eve at one point or another. My first trip there was a memorable time in eve for me. I remember jumping through the gate and seeing nothing but cans. Warping to the planet, cans. Warping to the sun, cans. Each can left by a different person. Each can with a message. Cans dated back to 04 IIRC. All these people leaving messages about the beauty of the eve universe. People anchor these cans to pay homage to CCP at the wonder that has been created. Travelling to new eden is a pilgramage of sorts. Cans left by people no longer with us. All this will be gone.... I'm indifferent to other gameplay changes in eve, I adapt and learn to love them, but this is destroying something a lot of people have contributed to. I can understand doing it in empire belts and gates etc, but new eden is a symbol in eve, something that is going to be destroyed. Preventing the cans from being removed in the new eden system is not showing favoritism towards one person, corp or alliance, it is preserving a part of eve itself. Its kind of stupid to say this, but if the new eden system goes, while i wont be quitting, i will habour resentment at CCP for killing new eden. _____________ Southern Cross Alliance, the largest Aussie/Kiwi alliance in Eve!
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.19 23:37:00 - [244] The only time I ever went to New Eden it was a lag infested disaster hole littered with so much junk it boggled the mind. I see nothing wrong with it being cleaned up. In fact it would be a good thing. --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
Ten Bulls	Posted - 2008.02.20 01:02:00 - [245] Good idea in general, but removing some junk on a specific date (1st of month) is really dumb in terms of gameplay. Why not make abandoned rookie ships expire after a certain amount of time like cans.
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2008.02.20 01:24:00 - [246] How about only implementing this after we have remote management for cans and remote asset viewing so people can maintain their cans from a distance if need be. ------------------------------------------ Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.02.20 03:45:00 - [247] Hallelujah! R.I.P. filthy space junk. At last. Once a month is perfect btw. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.20 09:02:00 - [248] Originally by: Par'Gellen The only time I ever went to New Eden it was a lag infested disaster hole littered with so much junk it boggled the mind. You are very mistaken if you think a sea of cans will cause notable lag for you. The client can't handle the simple task of managing that many objects at once is all that you are experiencing. Nothing that a bit of recoding wouldn't fix.
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.20 12:06:00 - [249] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Solbright altalt Until a can is missed. Then poof! If this burden is placed on the player then maybe the pilot and/or corp needs an "secured assets" list to track all the refreshing that will be needed If you're actively using it, you won't "miss" it. If you've gone more than 30 days without needing it, I wouldn't consider that to be an active stash. Hmmm. Insert recursion here ...
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.02.20 13:16:00 - [250] Originally by: Solbright altalt Originally by: Par'Gellen The only time I ever went to New Eden it was a lag infested disaster hole littered with so much junk it boggled the mind. You are very mistaken if you think a sea of cans will cause notable lag for you. The client can't handle the simple task of managing that many objects at once is all that you are experiencing. Nothing that a bit of recoding wouldn't fix. Wrong, wrong and wrong again. Infact, brimming over with wrongibility! As the dev said, when you enter a system the assets are loaded from the SQL server onto your client. This means network traffic, queries and disk access on the cluster. As also stated, several systems occupy one node. So the cache for that node can be overwritten if players are jumping around over, and the cached data is no longer relevant. New Eden probably shares a node with several other systems - so the cache is dirtied not by those entering New Eden, but other systems around it. Again.. As the dev said multiply this by thousands of ships and multiple jumps and containers - the cache gets wrecked pretty quickly. Therefore it must be refreshed from the SQL servers, meaning lag (for everyone). Not to mention the fact that every asset (can, wreck, drone, ship, etc, etc) is pre-fetched when you jump into the system and then lazy-loaded when you're in range (makes sense, no point loading what you don't have to). The more crap your client has to load, the longer it will take and the more lag you will get. Don't forget it's not just the cans/wrecks, etc that are loaded but also their attributes like owner, corp, contents and so on. Why else do you think the "My Assets" screens are delayed 5 minutes?? It's because they are cached and to reduce lag and load on the SQL servers. If you think a simple "re-code" of the client will do the trick it's you who are very much mistaken! If you don't understand, read some articles about "lazy loading", "relational databases" and "caching" it may help clear up some misconceptions.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.20 14:36:00 - [251] And to all the players hailing this change as the best thing since sliced bread, what good do you think it will do you? If you think Eve will run much faster I think you're being extremely optimistic. Remember how 'bookmarks were by far the biggest table in the database' and deleting all the instas would significantly improve performance. What difference did it actually make, that's right no discernable difference whatsoever. So if deleting most of 'the biggest table in the database' did nothing to improve performance who in their right mind thinks this will? Probably only those newcomers who weren't here when that experiment was tried. Anyway, many people have said what I think about this far better than I have time to, so for those coming late to the discussion here are the highlights of this thread for me: Narita True. Drolus True and funny. Xenofur The first bit was very well put, the rest about how to add space art to Eve in a new way was meh. Marlenus True, indeed why no response to this? Big Al So totally true I lolled. And here is the loser of the thread: How clueless can you get! Uncle Mo As an after thought, here's an idea I haven't seen mentioned (although I must admit I haven't read the last n pages of posts that have been added since I first read the whole thread). Lets see some data on how much 'junk' is 1 month old, compared to how much is 2, 4, 6, 9 and 12 months old, that should take you about an hour to come up with, (although of course you will already have that data to hand prior to designing your proposed solution). I bet my Carrier you would remove at least 75% of the stuff by just deleting that which was 6 months old or more. So why not do that first and see how much of a difference it really makes. Since after all (and as we are repeatedly told) nothing can be seriously tested before it hits Tranquility since you can't duplicate the load effectively, so if deleting 75% of the stuff makes very little difference then deleting the last 15 percent that might be the difference between cleaning up every month or every 6 months would obviously make even less difference. And of course you will want to code your solution flexibly anyway so that what is deleted and how often is configurable, so this experiment shouldn't even be any extra work for you at all! Now what do you say to that?
Mini Mizer	Posted - 2008.02.20 16:02:00 - [252] Another lame attempt at fixing (er deleting) something that is only broken because there was no planning or maintenance until things get borked. No this won't fix your PVP lag or your PVE lag when entering a mission and being gangthunked. Bad DBA, bad Developer, Bad management thinking.... Nice persistent world you got here (not!)- I guess if you stay in the same spot and or visit every place you've been is your only goal - sure. Be reasonable.: Include a rule that if your corp doesn't have an office in that system that you can only put out x-amount of cans out, if your corp has offices then they can put out x-amount. Generic player X can only put so many cans out. Give a corp a limit of how many cans they can put in a belt. Make it a reasonable number. For the RP like the graveyard, if its not in a belt, or etc make em pay with the same tokens that a POS requires for secure space operation to a much lesser degree like, 1 token per month. or If can is in a belt charge 10,000 isk charge per month and 1 race specific token - just not per hour like POS's (which is lame) per week or month. Those who have forgotten cans will likely let them go anyway vs paying. or simply a monthly fee and a race specific token for the month of deployment - renewable from within the character payable bills area. The complete belts of cans is of course insane but you want pilots mining into secured cans. ( those who want to anyway) Just let the EVE isk sync environment work out the kink you got yourself into. Just lots of those cans are never used in 60-90 days and that's the real lameness since you cant just shoot cans anymore, again let the EVE isk sync work. or If you don't access the can within 30 days you get a 30 day countdown that shows up somehow in your asset list or payable bills - etc that you can extend by a 10000 isk rental charge or more then x-amount of cans then 20000 isk charge. Those players who let their accounts lapse immediately start the countdown timer. Do not make it so you have to visit the can regularly to give it life - that is literally crap. If that's the case then make it so those with the correct pilot with corp role has to visit every office your corp in person to pay the rent! Give the paying pilots choices.... no choices = bad... This will not be noticeable to make EVE run faster regardless....
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.20 16:03:00 - [253] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset And to all the players hailing this change as the best thing since sliced bread, what good do you think it will do you? If you think Eve will run much faster I think you're being extremely optimistic. Remember how 'bookmarks were by far the biggest table in the database' and deleting all the instas would significantly improve performance. What difference did it actually make, that's right no discernable difference whatsoever. Actually, it made a significant difference. It allowed the playerbase to grow from it's size at that point, to it's current size, without the server keeling over and dying completely. And it made a much bigger difference to the DB than we've seen in observable client-side performance. At the point when the insta-nerf came in, the DB was the limiting factor for the server. Primarily because of the BM's. Thanks to a combination of the insta nerf and the addition of more RAMSAN capacity, the DB is no longer the bottleneck. Unfortunately, as with most complex systems, clearing one bottleneck isn't always going to give you OMGPerformanceBoost! It depends entirely on how quickly you hit the next bottleneck. It's entirely possible to increase performance on one element by hundreds of times, yet hit the next bottleneck in the system after increasing the load by just 1%. But it was still worthwhile removing that original bottleneck. Without removing the first bottleneck, you would have never got to the new bottleneck in the first place (and may well not have been able to identify it properly in the first place). You just keep having to plug away at clearing the bottlenecks. Which is what they are doing. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.20 16:30:00 - [254] Compare the bit where you said: Originally by: "Matthew" And it made a much bigger difference to the DB than we've seen in observable client-side performance. To the bit where I said: Originally by: "Neutrino Sunset" What difference did it actually make, that's right no discernable difference whatsoever. And bear in mind that by 'discernable' difference I mean 'client-side' difference. So with that said I totally agree with everything you just posted, but still stand by everything I said. If this change does make Eve run twice as fast as it did then great, but in reality I think the difference for most of us not involved in daily 300 v 300 fleet battles is more likely to be a 2.6 second session change instead of a 3.6 second session change. And in return for that we get Eve turned into a sterile wasteland of a space shoot-em-up deviod of any player generated art or the general clutter of life. Pretty crap trade imo. But what did you think about the bit in my post about deleting 75% of the oldest most out of date stuff first and seeing what difference that makes?
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.20 17:10:00 - [255] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset If this change does make Eve run twice as fast as it did then great, but in reality I think the difference for most of us not involved in daily 300 v 300 fleet battles is more likely to be a 2.6 second session change instead of a 3.6 second session change. And in return for that we get Eve turned into a sterile wasteland of a space shoot-em-up deviod of any player generated art or the general clutter of life. Pretty crap trade imo. But what did you think about the bit in my post about deleting 75% of the oldest most out of date stuff first and seeing what difference that makes? I understand this is your opinion and thus not likely to change, but I would point out that the truth is that there can still be player generated art, it will just require that the player generated art be maintained and not just dumped on us and forgotten. The the Art must be maintained (in my opinion) is an acceptable cost to clearing the hundreds and thousands of cans cluttering up space... and while I have not been (and I hope not to be) in a 300 vs. 300 fight the difference between a 3.6 second session change and a 2.6 second transition could be the difference between flying a ship or a pod... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Fundacion	Posted - 2008.02.20 18:12:00 - [256] CCP Prism X, Thank you. To further help the clean up effort has there been any thoughts/mention about POS 'recovery'. There are many many abandonded POS'es and fittings spewed through out EvE and it would be neat if there was a timer that would allow one to scoop the fitting/tower after time 'X' has past.
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.02.20 18:15:00 - [257] I didn't read all 9 pages of replies so I'm sorry if this has been already told. This is my humble n00b opinion about how this should be done: - Add a decay rate attribute to all eve objects. In cans it should be short like 30 days. T2 stuff should have lower rates. For the cementery maybe a new casket cargo container with enough space to fit a frozen corpse and a very low decay rate. - If you access your item in space you automatically fix any decay. - Any item that decays below a point becomes a wreck anybody can l00t/salvage, wreck 2 hour lifecycle applies, so you have 2 hours after DT to feast. - Create a NPC entity you can pay to maintain your cans if you don't pay or your char runs out of money, they leave your items to decay.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.20 18:36:00 - [258] @Hamfest: Yes you're quite right actually. I suppose the can art and adverts at gates and stations will still be there which isn't so bad. Although you won't ever warp to a moon and find a sculpture that someone put there years ago anymore, which used to be nice sometimes. Supply dumps for ninja ratting or raids into enemy space are going to be more work to maintain when with Caps and POS warfare and logistics nerfs Eve is already more grind than is bearable. Scanning out war targets doing missions off plane is going to be basically impossible without any space junk to use as warp targets. Yes if you happen to be looking for a war target in a system where you've done loads of the same types of missions your war target is doing you can bookmark them all and use your bookmarks, but that's really an unlikely and unfeasably longwinded solution. So some things will become more difficult, some more things will now become impossible, some things you spent time setting up will now become pointless. Which I suppose is the same as any patch. I must say though the more I think about it, the less bad I think it will be. I still think it's a bad idea but it's nowhere near as bad as some of the things they've done in the past. Perhaps I'm getting so used to them really horribly nerfing stuff to uselessness that I'm over-reacting a bit. For example nerfing the scanner to uselessness, no rats, drones, wrecks, cans is such an incomprehensible strategy that I'm wary of everything they propose now. But on the bright side the new EWAR changes to the overview are looking good. :)
Llaneza	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:06:00 - [259] Quote: Can we get a BULLETIN BOARD that requires anchoring, has a reasonable amount of HP (IE, not something that takes a dreadnought to remove, 2 minutes with a BC or BS should be enough), and will stay as long as the owner has sovereignty. With a limit of 1 per grid (or 1 per gate in system) it's not going to cause that much lag. I would also only allow a small text box in space, getting the full message would require a show info request. Again, this would cut down on the server traffic, as your not going to have to spam 5K of text at me unless I request it. The alliance bulletin board would be a nice new deployable. I've been considering something like letting alliances with sovereignty set a MOTD on Local, but that's way too open to abuse to be practical.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.20 19:31:00 - [260] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset @Hamfest: Yes you're quite right actually. I suppose the can art and adverts at gates and stations will still be there which isn't so bad. Although you won't ever warp to a moon and find a sculpture that someone put there years ago anymore, which used to be nice sometimes. Supply dumps for ninja ratting or raids into enemy space are going to be more work to maintain when with Caps and POS warfare and logistics nerfs Eve is already more grind than is bearable. Scanning out war targets doing missions off plane is going to be basically impossible without any space junk to use as warp targets. Yes if you happen to be looking for a war target in a system where you've done loads of the same types of missions your war target is doing you can bookmark them all and use your bookmarks, but that's really an unlikely and unfeasably longwinded solution. So some things will become more difficult, some more things will now become impossible, some things you spent time setting up will now become pointless. Which I suppose is the same as any patch. I must say though the more I think about it, the less bad I think it will be. I still think it's a bad idea but it's nowhere near as bad as some of the things they've done in the past. Perhaps I'm getting so used to them really horribly nerfing stuff to uselessness that I'm over-reacting a bit. For example nerfing the scanner to uselessness, no rats, drones, wrecks, cans is such an incomprehensible strategy that I'm wary of everything they propose now. But on the bright side the new EWAR changes to the overview are looking good. :) First off, thanks for acknowledging my point, I do appreciate it. Second, I have read before on how this will hurt scanning out war targets on missions and I think back to the scan-probing issues raised when griefers were scanning out mission runners and doing things that cost the mission runners not only ships, but causing them to fail the mission (if the requirement of a mission is to get something and return it, the griefer would get the item... the mission runner can then no longer finish the mission... the also scanned out the mission runners (in Low Sec Space) and would gank them with the same effect... If CCP makes it easy to scan out "War targets on Missions" they are also making it easy to Scan out and grief mission runners... and I am guessing there are a lot more Mission Runners that can be griefed then War Targets running Missions. Ninja Ratting, Low sec Safe Spots, 0.0 Warfare issues are (as best I can tell) something I can see as a reasonable point against this idea, that you may for what ever reason, be unable to return to a spot in enemy space to "Renew" a can you store much needed items in enemy space would be as hard on you as the repeated ganking (and the LP loss) of probed out mission runners. Perhaps, after the initial purge, steps could be taken to ôRandomizeö the can clean up based on the security level of the system, .5 space or higher cans have 30 days, 100% clean up chance (Clean up process is open for discussion) .4 space has a 90% chance, 70% for .3, 50% for .2, 30% for .1 and 10% for 0.0à so when the cleanup code triggers, there is only a 10% chance an anchored can in 0.0 space will be cleaned up where those cans around the gate into .4 space will be cleaned 90% of the timeà --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.20 20:55:00 - [261] Originally by: Ashlee Darksky Originally by: Solbright altalt The client can't handle the simple task of managing that many objects at once is all that you are experiencing. Nothing that a bit of recoding wouldn't fix. .... Again.. As the dev said multiply this by thousands of ships and multiple jumps and containers - the cache gets wrecked pretty quickly. Therefore it must be refreshed from the SQL servers, meaning lag (for everyone). blah blah blah That would be all well and good if lag became noticeable when doing that but it don't. Prism X is talking about the whole of Eve, not just one lone pilot and a bunch of cans. What you are really seeing when warping into a mass of cans is the client having trouble managing the large change in visible objects. It freezes the display while it sorts itself out. Stutter is a better name so as to not confuse it with real lag.
Daan Sai HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.21 00:21:00 - [262] The Good things: * many 10s of thousands of useless junk clogging up the system will go, hooray! * legitimate use of the junk in the short term for direct game play is preserved, cool The problems I have are these: * Indirect gameplay, immersion if you prefer, is being eroded, history is being lost. * New Eden. If you can protect cans inside 100km of starbases, what on earth is actually so bad about protecting the persistence of the player 'traces' in one system out of all of Eve. Just give the star at the centre a protection radius of say 100 AU. * The 'my way or the highway' attitude of Prism X, not a lot of point in a blog or discussion in that case. ( basicly: I'll give and take, unless I think I have a reason, then forget it! ) I see a lot of people genuinely saddened by a cold, rational ultimatum. They are arguing for a nevertheless real emotional attachment to an aspect of this world, and apparently not even achieving acknowledgment that they might have a point worth considering -- that is not measurable in DB access times. Clean up space junk, definitely!!!, but some compromise is in order to preserve something of what makes Eve special for all of us (and a wiki doesn't count!), and that is a shared persistent world. Humans have been leaving "I was here" graffiti from since before recorded history. It is an incredibly important aspect of being alive and wanting to reach out. The very fact that New Eden exists is as important to many (not all perhaps) as the rest of the game. Otherwise we may as well have an arcade game as many have said already. Come on, New Eden is one system out of 5000. Saving it in it's current form doesn't favor any one player or group of players, and is only 0.05% of the game space - 99.95% can be cleared and that should help! It will be a sad day in the sandpit if purely computing performance issues rule, with no concessions to the immersion.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:35:00 - [263] Originally by: Daan Sai * The 'my way or the highway' attitude of Prism X, not a lot of point in a blog or discussion in that case. ( basicly: I'll give and take, unless I think I have a reason, then forget it! ) I thought I took great care to compile lists of questions and ideas over the weekend, outside of work. Then I tried to answer as many questions and comment on what I thought about the most popular ideas as much as I could, still over the weekend and still off the clock. I'm actually quite sad to hear it was apparently a wasted effort. Or maybe you just weren't pleased with my replies not conforming to your preferred way and you interpret that as a 'My way or the highway' attitude. I don't really know what goes through your mind, it doesn't really matter. I wont hold your opinion of me against you, you're free to your opinions. But seeing as it's somewhat abysmal I can perhaps cheer you up with the news that I'm seriously re-evaluating my forum participation so maybe you wont have to put up with my attitude much longer. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Daan Sai HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:51:00 - [264] Edited by: Daan Sai on 21/02/2008 08:51:48 OK, Sorry Prism, let me put it differently. I am happy about the change overall. I am sad (not angry) that the 'junk' in New Eden will be lost. Thank you for putting in the time to make replies on the blog. I remain disappointed tho' that there seems to me to be an underlying assumption that it is impossible to come to a compromise over some cases, notably New Eden which will be impossible to replicate. Despite the extensive posts. But I was perhaps a little heavy on the language, for which I apologise. At this point I think we just agree to disagree and move on.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:57:00 - [265] Originally by: CCP Prism X I thought I took great care to compile lists of questions and ideas over the weekend, outside of work. Then I tried to answer as many questions and comment on what I thought about the most popular ideas as much as I could, still over the weekend and still off the clock. I'm actually quite sad to hear it was apparently a wasted effort. Or maybe you just weren't pleased with my replies not conforming to your preferred way and you interpret that as a 'My way or the highway' attitude. I don't really know what goes through your mind, it doesn't really matter. I wont hold your opinion of me against you, you're free to your opinions. But seeing as it's somewhat abysmal I can perhaps cheer you up with the news that I'm seriously re-evaluating my forum participation so maybe you wont have to put up with my attitude much longer. Hey Prism X! You did great with the blog and the discussion here! Please don¦t take it too serious, when discussing with the Blob. Doesn¦t matter, what you do - you will get also bad answers. Sure, deleting stuff is always a loss for some, so it is clear that a few will whine. It¦s your task to ignore the real whine and check into the reasonable posts, if there can be done something to reduce the consequences. But: Please stay in the forums and do your best to remove the lag.
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.21 10:38:00 - [266] Originally by: CCP Prism X But having cans un-anchor and thus making them blow-up able and looted is fine by me. Currently it would defeat the purpose but I'm not eternally set in stone (Unless I get a reason to, then you're damned for all time). Here's a reason - all those items have been paid for already. Deleting them at all is, in effect, removing some of a the static wealth of Eve.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.02.21 10:52:00 - [267] Edited by: Fifth Horseman on 21/02/2008 10:54:53 Originally by: CCP Prism X But seeing as it's somewhat abysmal I can perhaps cheer you up with the news that I'm seriously re-evaluating my forum participation so maybe you wont have to put up with my attitude much longer. If only you meant it. Can you hang your Dev badge up while you're at it? You might think this isn't constructive or trolling or whatever, but I believe that you disappearing would only improve the usefulness of the Dev team, and not having the forums filled with the worthless promise of discussion would only improve the forums. If any of my staff showed the incompetance of cooperation and communication that you do, you'd be on the Fast Track part of the gross negligence procedure, which usually involves an escort off the premises. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
Fingapup	Posted - 2008.02.21 11:02:00 - [268] Why not limit the time containers may remain deployed in space with the Anchoring skill? Anchoring 1 and your can pops in a week... Anchoring 5 and it pops in five. Thus there's no need for a system-wide/eve-wide scan of debris, just a skill-timer/self-delete-date on each can. Also you would avoid spikes of good (no cans) performance at the beginning of the month and poor (cans everywhere) performance at the end. Isn't that simpler?

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.02.21 11:07:00 - [269] Solbright: Have you read anything of my blog? The whole purpose of it was to give a forward warning. A forward warning which details how to not lose this static wealth. If you're still unsure how you should preserve your wealth go read the blog again, there are two certain ways of doing it detailed there. Additionally I've already covered the question about static wealth whose location is unknown to their owners. This is not wealth to them as they are lost assets. This could possibly be wealth to scavengers but I already said I'm not going to imbalance the ISK balance by making them free loot for those who bother to look for them. On top of explaining why I will not make this free loot for everyone I did also mention that I'm quite open to revising the idea once the ancient junk is gone and open. It wont happen in the initial push though because I have to adhere to release schedules and QA will simply bury me if I go "Hey, I'm making an unscheduled change. You need to test this all over again and start the regression test again. Have fun guys.", software development isn't something you rush into and that's why I might come off as "My way or the highway"-ish. It's not because I'm not writing the stuff you mention down and keeping it for later date, it's because I don't want to come off as promising something I can't deliver just now. The system is staying. I've already mentioned what player suggested ideas I'm very fond of. I've tried to give as clear borderlines for what can be suggested and what will simply not fly. If you want to discuss ways to improve this feature I'll try and respond to new development tomorrow on during the weekend. If you want to talk about how much you hate this, I can't stop you but I'm no longer responding to issues I've already done my best to explain. If you want to talk about what a horrible person/developer/employee I can't stop you either but rest assured neither me nor my employers agree with you and that's what really matters to me... so it's rather moot. And before someone says: Weren't you leaving? I said I was contemplating reducing general forum presence. Not ignoring the responsibility of my blog. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.02.21 11:11:00 - [270] WTB: Act of God. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:03:00 - [271] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Daan Sai * The 'my way or the highway' attitude of Prism X, not a lot of point in a blog or discussion in that case. ( basicly: I'll give and take, unless I think I have a reason, then forget it! ) I thought I took great care to compile lists of questions and ideas over the weekend, outside of work. Then I tried to answer as many questions and comment on what I thought about the most popular ideas as much as I could, still over the weekend and still off the clock. I'm actually quite sad to hear it was apparently a wasted effort. Or maybe you just weren't pleased with my replies not conforming to your preferred way and you interpret that as a 'My way or the highway' attitude. I don't really know what goes through your mind, it doesn't really matter. I wont hold your opinion of me against you, you're free to your opinions. But seeing as it's somewhat abysmal I can perhaps cheer you up with the news that I'm seriously re-evaluating my forum participation so maybe you wont have to put up with my attitude much longer. I think reducing your forum presence would be a very sad thing. At least Ive noticed that your one of the few devs to deliver a decent hammer blow to the macrowhiners. There's a silent majority out there that support and applaud your efforts on this, and a great many more who appreciate the additional effort that you and other CCP Devs contribute 'off the clock'. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:05:00 - [272] I definitely agree with PrismX about the "lost" assets. By the time these get deleted, it's going to be at least 30 days, and probably closer to 2+ months between people knowing they need to fetch their old stashes, and them actually disappearing. If this stuff is so lost or inaccessible that it cannot be found and utilised within that timeframe, then it isn't economically active wealth anyway. If it was released in a looting bonanza, the economy would treat it as new stuff, resulting in a destabilizing shock to the economy. This stuff has had years to build up, just dumping it all back into circulation over the space of a month isn't a viable option. Once the 4 year backlog of cast-offs and forgotten stashes has been worked through, a looting-based solution to the can clean-up becomes a far more reasonable proposition, as the stuff being recycled won't have backed up into such a large stock, and won't have had so much time to become inactive. But it needs this initial clean-up phase as a precursor. As for preserving New Eden, I fully support the cans-must-go attitude. I also completely understand the point that significant changes or new features are unlikely to make it into the 1.1 patch. Therefore, however good our ideas, they're not going to appear until at least the 1.2 patch. However, I assume that TQ is reguarly backed-up, and specifically backed-up before each patch. So there's no reason I can see why the current contents of New Eden can't be backed-up somewhere for a later feature. After all, if it's an "I woz ere" style thing you're after, or "messages from beyond" or whatever you want to call it, there's absolutely no need to spam in-game objects to do that. An IGB-compatible web message board system would serve just as well, and could easily be linked to the billboards, monument structures, or whatever in the same way that the news page is currently. With the backup of New Eden, you could then extract the description fields of all the cans, filter out the ones that are obviously not messages ("Giant Secure Container", "Can *" etc being some obvious ones to filter out), and pre-populate the others into the message board system. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:50:00 - [273] Prism X, Please disregard all the crazy people in here that think this is a bad idea. Forget all the complicated "OMG! What-if's and What-about's". They are just trying to make a simple long-awaited change seem like a big horrible deal when it really isn't. For me it all boils down to this: Ice belts, ore belts, stations, planets, and gates will lose the eye-sore of unwanted and unneeded forgotten cans. For that very reason I will place your name in my Bio out of respect for one of the greatest Eve devs of all time. I'm not kidding. In fact I'll do it as soon as I get home. --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
flearider Minmatar Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:17:00 - [274] is this a last ditch atempt to gain that NFS crap you keep talking about .... get some more money spent on hardware instead of new cars for the boys ... WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE SO CALLED SUPER COMPUTER TALKED ABOUT AT FANFEST ? 200K X ú8 = ú1.6 MILL A MONTH thats what where paying to see lag in 0.0
Zarch AlDain The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:06:00 - [275] Originally by: CCP Prism X And before someone says: Weren't you leaving? I said I was contemplating reducing general forum presence. Not ignoring the responsibility of my blog. You are one of the few devs who regularly post on the forums. Don't leave us :( Zarch AlDain
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:30:00 - [276] Originally by: CCP Prism X On top of explaining why I will not make this free loot for everyone I did also mention that I'm quite open to revising the idea once the ancient junk is gone and open. Converting to free loot was only a secondary effect from my pov. Managing the timeout is my main concern. Can't blame me for trying. :P
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:33:00 - [277] Originally by: CCP Prism X And before someone says: Weren't you leaving? I said I was contemplating reducing general forum presence. Not ignoring the responsibility of my blog. CCP Prism X... If you reduce your forum presence at all I will show my displeasure by unsubscribing all 514 accounts and get all my friends to unsubscribe as well (another 2,914 accounts, but I only have 4 friends) if that is not enough to make you change your mind, I will open several thousand more accounts, and unsubscribe them too... By the way, while you are at it, can you look into resetting the Volumn on Modules? there are a bunch that are a lot larger then they should be (normally by a magnitude of 10)... Thanks --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Reachok Amarr Tres Hombres	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:52:00 - [278] Originally by: Par'Gellen Prism X, Please disregard all the crazy people in here that think this is a bad idea. Forget all the complicated "OMG! What-if's and What-about's". They are just trying to make a simple long-awaited change seem like a big horrible deal when it really isn't. For me it all boils down to this: Ice belts, ore belts, stations, planets, and gates will lose the eye-sore of unwanted and unneeded forgotten cans. For that very reason I will place your name in my Bio out of respect for one of the greatest Eve devs of all time. I'm not kidding. In fact I'll do it as soon as I get home. Par said nearly the same thing I wanted to say. There are so many posts with hyper complex ideas for simple solutions. Leave this one as is, it's awesome in it's simplicity. You don't visit that can for 30 days, it goes pop. You launch it and don't anchor it, it goes pop after the next downtime. Bingo!
Preston FateForger Caldari The Elear FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:28:00 - [279] I fully support eliminating space junk. All of it. It is an eyesore and I have it all turned off in my overview anyway. People who support keeping this junk need to instead realize that it is a game design flaw and should instead focus their energy on convincing devs that players need to create and design really cool stuff (like their own space stations/outposts/hideaways, billboards, agents etc... Especially in 0.0. ---------------------------------- The Elear EVE Video
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.22 22:55:00 - [280] I'm posting because I'm one of those that look forward to having the junk removed, but didn't bother to reply to this thread untill now unlike the (excuse me) loud minority that is against this. Ask anyone what's more important, less lag or cans that stay forever.
Kirren D'marr	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:18:00 - [281] Prism X, There seems to be a lot of doubt among the community as to how effective these measures will actually be. I think that many of those who are against this idea might find the loss easier to swallow if there was some assurance of a significant positive outcome. I don't know about you, but in my line of work, I can't take actions like this without first doing some preliminary research into projected results. I think it would go a long way towards engendering the good will of the community to release such information. Can we get some estimates, such as what percentage of containers will actually be removed by these measures? I'm assuming that your database can tell you which containers have not been accessed in the last 30 days, and it would be nice to know if we're talking something in the range of high 90s, low teens, or somewhere in between. Based on those numbers, it would also be nice to have some idea of what level of improvement we should expect in game lag and load times. Of course, I'm hoping you've already done some of this type of research yourself. It would be rather disastrous if after implementing this change, only a small portion of the containers were removed and the overall impact was negligible, as you'd end up with a lot of players upset over a loss without any improvement in the game to compensate. Please do yourself and us a favor and post some rough figures to give us an assurance that this will result in an improvement, we need something a little more solid than "this will improve lag." Thanks.
Scifi Caldari Star Scream Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.23 03:21:00 - [282] Seems that most people are falling into one of two categories: 1) All for it(The junk must go!) or 2) All for it(The junk must go...except for <insert thing here>)...aka mostly for it The more I think about it the more I'm moving towards #1. The use it within 30days or lose it rule does seem at least workable. Random idea: As far as some of the more famous artwork / graveyard issues go, could the content people shuffle those into a deadspace of some sort? I seem to remember a couple mentions that creating new missions and things were a lot simpler now with those. Just a beacon to a acceleration gate in each system and as you go through it pops up a little game-correct blurb about the artwork. Heck could even solve the graveyard problem with an agent-in-space who just collects corpses.
Solbright altalt	Posted - 2008.02.23 03:56:00 - [283] or 3) Can't understand why people are so *****y about a bit of fluff on the display. And would like the changes to be less detrimental to casual use of cans.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.23 16:35:00 - [284] Originally by: Kirren D'marr Prism X, There seems to be a lot of doubt among the community as to how effective these measures will actually be. I think that many of those who are against this idea might find the loss easier to swallow if there was some assurance of a significant positive outcome. I don't know about you, but in my line of work, I can't take actions like this without first doing some preliminary research into projected results. I think it would go a long way towards engendering the good will of the community to release such information. Can we get some estimates, such as what percentage of containers will actually be removed by these measures? I'm assuming that your database can tell you which containers have not been accessed in the last 30 days, and it would be nice to know if we're talking something in the range of high 90s, low teens, or somewhere in between. Based on those numbers, it would also be nice to have some idea of what level of improvement we should expect in game lag and load times. Of course, I'm hoping you've already done some of this type of research yourself. It would be rather disastrous if after implementing this change, only a small portion of the containers were removed and the overall impact was negligible, as you'd end up with a lot of players upset over a loss without any improvement in the game to compensate. Please do yourself and us a favor and post some rough figures to give us an assurance that this will result in an improvement, we need something a little more solid than "this will improve lag." Thanks. I would suspect, but can't say for sure (and I doubt others can either) that while the removal of all the junk may in fact speed things up, it may also only speed them up to the next bottle-neck... thus the end-user (us) see very little change, even if progress was made. I work in Data Collection, this is our daily fight, to try to get data just a wee bit faster, to find and streamline the bottle-necks (or go to the companies that have the bottle-necks) so that we can report that data as close to real time as possible. (As I was told years ago, there is a brick falling at your head, do you want to know now, or in 5 seconds?) As testing can't (and shouldn't) be done on the live server, the actual issues resolved and caused with any change tend to be a gamble, and this one is no different... in fact more so... because the junk (I am guessing here) is already missing from the test servers, or was never there, thus it's removal's effect could not be accounted for. Again, I am guessing, but the best I think Prism X is able to say is "This should improve lag", and for me, that is enough. --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.23 19:18:00 - [285] The whole point of a supply dump is that it enables you to store supplies at difficult to reach locations. If I have 4 supply dumps one at each corner of the Eve universe (which I just about do), then I would have to spend most of my online time travelling from one supply dump to another just to keep them alive. Ergo. This implementation removes an entire strategy from the game. If for example 80% of the junk can be removed by deleting stuff that is 2 or 3 months old, that might enable the strategy described above to remain viable, plus also give us an indication of whether all this effort will make any discernable difference. I see no reason for not exploring that alternative, unless the implementation (that I gather is already in place) is not sophisticated enough to be applied with this degree of flexibility.
Original Copy	Posted - 2008.02.24 05:04:00 - [286] Edited by: Original Copy on 24/02/2008 05:11:10 Why not give the cans a hacking variable... the older the can, the easier to hack, once found. Likewise, the older the can the sooner it will unanchor (over the course of, say four months (1 monther per year of Eve being Live)) and eventually vanish. Thereafter a can is perfectly secure for 30 days (100% secure), and that anchoring security degrades by 5% per day thereafter until accessed again by the owner. Thus after 2 months the can may be accessed relatively easily, scooped, and carried away. It can only be accessed by being 'repackaged' in a station. After 3 months with no activity the can goes poof.
Zeneth Entorion	Posted - 2008.02.24 12:38:00 - [287] Here's an idea: Make it so that you can set an anchored can to be non-degradable, and the number of these cans you can set is dependent on your Anchoring skill (say, 3 non-degradable cans per level or something). This will set a hard limit on the number of cans that can be placed in the universe, while removing the random junk that nobody actually cares about. Monuments, can art, etc, would still be feasible, but require cooperation between individuals, much like a POS does. Additionally, the clever and unique can placement and cache tactics would be preserved. To save the existing monuments (as much as is possible), change as many of each character's presently placed cans to non-degradable as their Anchoring skill will allow, prioritizing based on the wealth of the content of the can and possibly its location. Overall I think this is a very good change, but it isn't worth destroying a major part of what makes EVE what it is.
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.02.25 00:48:00 - [288] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Daan Sai * The 'my way or the highway' attitude of Prism X, not a lot of point in a blog or discussion in that case. ( basicly: I'll give and take, unless I think I have a reason, then forget it! ) I thought I took great care to compile lists of questions and ideas over the weekend, outside of work. Then I tried to answer as many questions and comment on what I thought about the most popular ideas as much as I could, still over the weekend and still off the clock. I'm actually quite sad to hear it was apparently a wasted effort. Or maybe you just weren't pleased with my replies not conforming to your preferred way and you interpret that as a 'My way or the highway' attitude. I don't really know what goes through your mind, it doesn't really matter. I wont hold your opinion of me against you, you're free to your opinions. But seeing as it's somewhat abysmal I can perhaps cheer you up with the news that I'm seriously re-evaluating my forum participation so maybe you wont have to put up with my attitude much longer. Hey Prism, I for one wanted to say thanks for taking the time to actually let us know whats going on from a technical basis. I'm sure many here appreciate it, and find it very informative. Unfortunatley there will always be some f**knuts who like to bash people over the head because they don't understand, don't care or it doesn't suit their viewpoint. Personally I am in awe of the DB and the cluster itself. The amount of selects/inserts/updates/deletes per second must be pretty staggering. Rather than just "dev bashing" if people have something constructive to say, say it. If you think you can do better then apply for a job a CCP In comparison to WoW, Pirates of the buring sea and other MMO's I have to say EVE wins hands down for performance, game play and overall enjoyment. The fact everyone is on the same server is pretty amazing. Quit bashing the devs and go clean up your can junk heaps
aeti Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.25 18:35:00 - [289] Roughly when is this patch going to take place, weeks, months or what? My playtime is somewhat limited these days and there is quite a lot that I'll need to extract from many different 0.0 regions \|:
Knarfis Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.25 18:48:00 - [290] Dear Prism X I like this idea. It makes alot of sense, getting rid of all that stuff out there that is rarely seen or used by others yet has to be logged and kept track of by the servers. This all equals in my mind, less lag. This is good. There is one thing that im not much of a fan of. Myself and my corp works out of many different regions. These regions are not visited as often as once a month and therefor alot of our strategic anchored holding will be lost to this server change. All of this stuff is found in 0.0 and most of the time its would be hard to "maintain" these items in hostile areas. Im sure there are many other corp's and alliances that have the same issue that im speaking about. Is there anyway to at least limit or lessen the time requirements on the achorable items found in 0.0 space?? I would also like to point out that i really like the idea about the ability to "salvage" other peoples old crap. Im not really sure how that would "unbalance" the isk generating ways of the game. (not sure if i got that saying right or not). Knarfis
Peter Powers Master Miners Intruders.	Posted - 2008.02.26 14:05:00 - [291] Aloha Prism, After reading the Devblog, and most stuff in this Thread, i just feel like i need to give a few cents of my own to that. I can clearly understand what the point behind that is, however there are a few things which will change to the negative for the point of a player. Example: in my Home System there is sort of an arena marked with containers. It is ther longer then i play eve, once build buy some guy who wasnt seen for ages, i dont even know if he is still playing. This place has been the arena for uncounted 1on1 fights - and works good as one of those cause its NOT on a moon, NOT on a POS - its not scaring people away from the 1on1s. this place is well known to a lot of people, but none of those i know could open one of the containers. Also: you allready used the words user generated content and this is one of the very unique things of eve - that you as a player can leave your mark in the game, that you have influence on how the unisvese looks and feels. Removing one of the ways to leave your mark without giving another takes away a bit of the magic of this game, making it more like other mmo where you live in a static world, which completely looks like some game designer decided. As i said at the beginning i understand why it is necessary, but i think maybe before you do that you might want to think about implementing another possibility for us - the players - to leave our mark, to be a part of this universe. Also im going to miss the possibility of leaving a few supplies in regions i leave - just for the case i come back - but tbh i think this is something i can live with :) I love CCP Morpheus<3 xXx CCP Morpheus xXx <3
gpfault Muppet Brigade	Posted - 2008.02.27 10:38:00 - [292] Killing lag is always good, but why just erase the can from existance? If you unanchor the can, it'll get removed in the next DT garbage collection cycle anyway, so you might as well give someone a chance of grabbing the can and it's contents. Only real problem I can see is the initial gold rush bringing down GSC prices for a while, but you could make the first cleanup cycle a special case.
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.02.28 13:39:00 - [293] What about limited "hidden" Depots( weapon/ civil) instead of this cans.? It could be an "extrarole" for the black op ships. Transporting such a depot into nemies terretory deep inside 0.0. They only can anchore them, include a limitation to the numbers like only 1 within the system. This depots should be filled with fuel like poses to keep it running cloaked. So u cannot scan them down. Something like this would make sense. It would increase the risk, and change this kind of "storage your stuff" somewhere without risking something... into a challenge. Increase the cargohold of such a depot to 20 k m/ 3, and limit it to hold Ammunition, hw water/ liquid ozon / stronthium. ( weapon depot) (civil Depot) : limit it to hold moduls/ riggs / minerals. To keep peoples away from spawming new corps to anchore hundrets of cans on this way. U should give this possibilty a high skill requirement. "There should be no possibilty to make it riskless anchoring stuff within enemie terretory, without risking something in doing it, or having it in future untouchable anchored." A lot of belts will be cleaned in future, imclude the lag within such a system decrease heavy. To give miners a chance , placing his ore not in jettison cans, there should be also cans with higher cargohold. U should fuel them to , inlcude buying a licsence from the local Faction. ( standing based depended on the corp) Anchoring them should be also high skill based, include a limitation on the region where u in. If u want to anchore a new can, u need a new license, which will be expensiver then the first... and the next will be more expensive that u think about it , if its worth. I dont know if something like this could work, at least a lot of peoles are angry about loosing stuff on this change. But there should be something more interesting then visiting 1 time within 30 days to keep the can alive. " Whats a hearty meal without a bit of sugar U miss something at least it s tasteless. " "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi " EVE FAN since 2003 äWode, Wode, hale dinnen Rosse nu voder, nu Diestel un Dorn, Schter jar beter Korn!ô
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.28 16:41:00 - [294] Originally by: Macmuelli What about limited "hidden" Depots( weapon/ civil) instead of this cans.? It could be an "extrarole" for the black op ships. Transporting such a depot into nemies terretory deep inside 0.0. They only can anchore them, include a limitation to the numbers like only 1 within the system. This depots should be filled with fuel like poses to keep it running cloaked. So u cannot scan them down. Something like this would make sense. It would increase the risk, and change this kind of "storage your stuff" somewhere without risking something... into a challenge. Increase the cargohold of such a depot to 20 k m/ 3, and limit it to hold Ammunition, hw water/ liquid ozon / stronthium. ( weapon depot) (civil Depot) : limit it to hold moduls/ riggs / minerals. To keep peoples away from spawming new corps to anchore hundrets of cans on this way. U should give this possibilty a high skill requirement. "There should be no possibilty to make it riskless anchoring stuff within enemie terretory, without risking something in doing it, or having it in future untouchable anchored." A lot of belts will be cleaned in future, imclude the lag within such a system decrease heavy. To give miners a chance , placing his ore not in jettison cans, there should be also cans with higher cargohold. U should fuel them to , inlcude buying a licsence from the local Faction. ( standing based depended on the corp) Anchoring them should be also high skill based, include a limitation on the region where u in. If u want to anchore a new can, u need a new license, which will be expensiver then the first... and the next will be more expensive that u think about it , if its worth. I dont know if something like this could work, at least a lot of peoles are angry about loosing stuff on this change. But there should be something more interesting then visiting 1 time within 30 days to keep the can alive. " Whats a hearty meal without a bit of sugar U miss something at least it s tasteless. " I think your ideas for "After the purge" are outstanding... ôDumpö Objectsà 500 û 700 m3 ôUn-deployedö 50 to 70K m3 (space) deployedà Fuel poweredà Dumps could be "Collapsed" reducing them back to their original size... to be collapsed, it must be empty and unanchoredà 1) Mining "Dump" ... large, can be scanned, can be deployed by any ship with a large enough hold (except a freighter)... holds 30 to 60 days worth of "Fuel" after which locks fail, 30 days later, it implodes (gets cleaned up)... 2) A Covert Ops "Dump"... deployable only by a Black Ops Ship (based on the Cargo bay of the Black Ops ship) that has a fuel bay and a storage section... Fuel bay holds enough (if full) to power the dumps "Cloak" for X-period of time... say 30 to 60 days... after which the cloak fails and the dump can be scanned... 30 days later, the dump implodes (gets cleaned up)... Limits by system/user/corp... Perhaps proximity... to limit number... Another twist... T1 version is the mining Dump (seeded BPO), Covert Ops Dump is the T2 Version... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Max DeathWish Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.01 18:53:00 - [295] Junk cleanup is perfect! It's awesome!!! This is long overdue. It's the right thing to do! Just one request though - do it RIGHT, please. This is an opportunity to not only streamline performance, but also add content. In any system with less than 1.0 security, all (or at least some portion of) expired junk should be recovered by rougue drones and/or NPC's. the expired loot is hoarded by the NPC's in stockpiles discoverable via exploration. expired drones and fighters need to be converted to rogue drones (e.g., "Rogue Ogre II"), all of which accumulate over time to make for more and/or tougher NPC loot stockpile deadspace complexes. c'mon now - a little dynamic content creation will be fun. and the best benefit is, you don't have to steal from the playerbase to clean up the database. remember - all that 'junk' floating out there in space is something somebody worked to loot, build, or buy. it's only fair to give someone else the opportunity to loot it in turn. like i said - do it RIGHT, CCP!
Max DeathWish Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.01 18:58:00 - [296] Originally by: Solbright altalt Originally by: CCP Prism X But having cans un-anchor and thus making them blow-up able and looted is fine by me. Currently it would defeat the purpose but I'm not eternally set in stone (Unless I get a reason to, then you're damned for all time). Here's a reason - all those items have been paid for already. Deleting them at all is, in effect, removing some of a the static wealth of Eve. exactly. instead, cache them in spawn containers in NPC deadspace. if you're going to steal the property of the playerbase for performance considerations, at least do it in a manner that obeys the laws of physics - the junk has to go somewhere.
ATOM ANT	Posted - 2008.03.03 18:08:00 - [297] What about this ? Yeah. What about that ? Clearly some junk is not junk. A once a month visit? sure.. Once a month go visit every single one of your cans.. (Read: TIME SINK.) Better yet.. open a window and validate each of your cans without having to travel to them all. Hey not bad if i do say so myself. :-) Atom-Ant.
Eaton d'Sorder	Posted - 2008.03.04 11:20:00 - [298] No problems with cleaning up junk, all for it.... but since it is being dealt with and the mechanic will be in place to keep it under control, how about adding some bigger anchorable cans and maybe re-allowing deployment in .8 .9 and 1.0 so noobs can use them without some guy in an indy flying up and scooping the whole can because they don't know the mechanics?
Stolen Lotus Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2008.03.06 11:45:00 - [299] Please give us an anchorable container for drones that only transfers to/from the drone bay! Otherwise the ability to maintain a personal drone dump is lost :( You could call it a "drone hive" or something ...
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders	Posted - 2008.03.08 07:18:00 - [300] I heard about this because someone mentioned changes that were going to make the Graveyard disapair. I was rather saddened at this, because it sounded really cool when I heard about it (and, after hearing of it, I even sent a mail to the one person who had pod killed me before, hoping that they might have my body soI could get buried there). After reading, I'm still sad that this could mean the end of the graveyard. But I understand your position of not being able to show favoritism. I don't like it one bit, and I'm not sure I agree with it, but I understand it, and respect it to some degree. However, aside from that, I'm still not sure I like this idea on general principles. Yes, periodic clean-ups, at least in high-sec, would be good. Things can eventually get to be eyesores, in lowsec people can shoot stuff they don't like, at least (even if it takes a huge amount of firepower), in highsec, they cannot. As for lag? Well, yes, you're the expert. If you say that it's creating lag, I'll take your word for it. But how much lag? If this change would cut lag in half, I'd reluctently say it's worth it. If it would reduce lag by a tenth, I doubt I'd even notice that there was less lag. So -- how much lag reduction? Is it enough to justify making this seem, well . . . less of an actual world? I'm more than willing to trade a small amount of extra lag in order to play in EVE, instead of just playing another computer game. Because this is not just a game, though of course that is part of it. But this is a world, as well, and a balance needs to be struck. So my request is, please . . . before you make any changes, consider the balance between gameplay and immersion. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Dyna Mite	Posted - 2008.03.08 09:27:00 - [301] If lag was reduced by 1% I'd say go for it. 1% here, another percent somewhere else - it all adds up. Have you seen the price of items at just give you 1 or 2 percent more damage/cpu/skillpoints? And yes, I'd also appreciate it, if there was something beside a POS that you could use in low-sec/0.0 for refilling drones.
Rho'varo Parvo Universalis	Posted - 2008.03.09 03:54:00 - [302] Patch notes for the Trinity 1.1 "Boost Patch" say that the timer for the removal of cans will be 30 days. I stand by my hypothesis that a longer timer would be almost as effective at reducing database clutter as such a short timer, and *a longer timer would also reduce the need for pilots to do the chore* of keeping their anchored cans active. Having not yet seen a comparison of (i) what fraction of cans would be deleted with a 90 day timer to (ii) what fraction of cans would be deleted with a 30 day timer, I remain unconvinced that such a short timer is necessary. Please change the anchored can decay timer to 90 days** as soon as possible, even if it is too late to fix this problem for the Trinity 1.1 patch.
Miter	Posted - 2008.03.09 06:56:00 - [303] At the beginning of this thread, people asked when this patch was being deployed. They received no answer. Now we know it is this week. People have asked what the protection range of POS 'preservation field' is... and have received no answer. People have stated that refreshing cans every 30 days will be a chore. People have postulated that changing the refresh time to 90 or 180 days, would remove the 'chore' feeling while probably achieving comparable results to having the 30-day timer.... these people have not been addressed. It's pretty clear PrismX does not play this game, and it is very clear he has tunnel vision about improving his particular area (DB performance) with practically zero concern for overall gameplay. Does anyone remember when they removed cans from .8 security space a patch or three ago? What happened to those cans and their content? Right, they were moved to the controlling player's clone station... and not simply removed form the game. I guess they fired the guy/gal who came up with that idea and replaced him/her with PrismX. Is this cleanup idea a good thing? Obviously, yes. Is it being implemented perfectly? Quite obviously, no.
Shiva Russell	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:50:00 - [304] Here, Here.......... Being in the Royal Navy i am at sea for extended periods of time (most of the time well over 30 days), 30 day timer on cans is i believe to short.... please increase it at the first opportunity to at least double that. Thanks....
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:18:00 - [305] A junk cleanup is definitely in order, but maybe the frequency can be toned down in the future? The problem seems to be more about derelict cans floating for 3 years, not ones that only get accessed eveyr 90 days or whatever. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Quinter Servarosius The Flying Dutchmen Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:43:00 - [306] Edited by: Quinter Servarosius on 11/03/2008 02:43:33 Originally by: CCP Prism X Solbright: Have you read anything of my blog? The whole purpose of it was to give a forward warning. A forward warning which details how to not lose this static wealth. If you're still unsure how you should preserve your wealth go read the blog again, there are two certain ways of doing it detailed there. Well nice forword warning , there are some can's of my in space where i can not get to, Atm Cause of the political games. I still like to retrive them one day. (those are cans in 0.0 and lowsec save spots) For the rest all my cans i forgot in high sec yeah scrap them.
Sabe Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.11 05:48:00 - [307] Offline pos's should go if not interacted with in 90 days. ----- TROLL One mans "flame" is another mans "constructive criticism".
Melissa Newbie	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:27:00 - [308] Edited by: Melissa Newbie on 11/03/2008 11:28:27 I was wondering where does those 200 containers will go eventually, now we have result. Good job!
Farham AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:38:00 - [309] Fly around some of the more uninhabited places in the drone regions and you will literally find 100s and 100s of GSC per system. The side benefit of this clean up will be the harm it does to the ISK farmers who clutter up these regions so profusely. Intrepid Crossing Diplomat and All Around Major Idiot
xhairy	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:54:00 - [310] howdy all ...... i find this to rather nice clean up of the lagfest in eve .........been getting tired of the long system changes and the roid belt loading has gotten realy bad ..........and yes im a miner 49'er .......Hulk pilot even ........use to have a hell of a time flying around belts in my slowmoestripping boat .........befor the cans and wrecks were flythrew .........im still rather disappointed in ccp's inaction agianst spammers and macrominers ..........it does make for an interesting day of chat and mining .......my block gator is realy fat ......i also think ccp's recent allowance of steam trial accounts is a total fubar .......and that fact that i have block those nub's as well .....(shakes head)....and the reduction of the tutorial in the last 3 major patches .......ya like the dumber they come thing ........i know ive only been a podling for a year or so and been reading the forums since 03 .....but still ......cant you guys come up with 12 hour mandatory tutorial with popquizzes and stuff to allow players to get on with theyre own game .........geeze......or ..ccp can just start paying players who help out nubs from steam or any trial account holder or anyone that is to stupid to read or think on there own and need mommys dam hands to hold them up............ya ok ....ya know my opinion on it ......btw nice fix it patch ....many things needed it long frackin time ago!!!!!!!!!!
Nimtra	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:09:00 - [311] "This means that both generic junk as well as the anchorable containers will not be removed if left in close proximity to Starbases" How close is that ? 100km ? 2mm ? ( "It is further then the shields it seems : "This is regardless of who owns the item, but keep in mind that leaving things outside enemy Starbases is probably not a good way to sa***uard them and their content." )
IVIinotaur OWN RESEARCH	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:34:00 - [312] Please explain what close proximity means with respect to how close to a station do cans have to be to not get eliminated? 1m, 100m, 1000m ????
Poreuomai Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:00:00 - [313] When will the first clean-up be? There are still loads of cans in the belts.
Harman Hackebeilchen Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:12:00 - [314] I think 30 day's is toO SHORT ! make it to 7 day's normaly the miners put them out to keep thiefs away and after finish mining they take them away again i hate it to fly in a belt and can't the the asteroids cause of the stupid yellow conties !
Uncle Mo Raddick Explorations Friend or Enemy	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:22:00 - [315] I think all cans should be deleted at DT. Screw the 30 timer. Cans serve no legitimate pourpose just floating in space. I suppose make an exception for cans inside a POS bubble. The outside ones to uncloak ships need to go.
CT Spider	Posted - 2008.03.21 10:49:00 - [316] Edited by: CT Spider on 21/03/2008 10:53:58 Well this kinda sux... was a while without internet, now i found out i lost a LOT of mining crystals coz u put a timer on the containers... This plus the fact there's the dual char bug, mks me kinda @#$$%$%^#%^%$ Oh well thank god i got the crystal bpo's but still its not funny... I however DO understand why this change has been made, too bad u couldn't just delete the empty ones... Like if container holds something it wouldnt hav a timer, guess thats either impossible or to hard to program? I DO hope u quickly fix the dual char bug, since i dont pay for lettin 1 of my chars in the blue... Signing off,
Phoenix Marinus Forging Industries	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:19:00 - [317] Edited by: Phoenix Marinus on 23/03/2008 16:19:58 Space Junk: Why would CCP force miners to create space junk (secure containers that last a month) in order to keep can flippers away? Here's a novel idea ... make jetcans secure. They blow up after an hour, but they can't be stolen from. Then miners wouldn't buy GSCs to fill up all the belts. OMG it's so simple, it might just work!
Katana Seiko	Posted - 2008.03.30 06:51:00 - [318] You know, there are a few of us who really leave some stuff behind where others can take it... I demand: Make jetcans free of flagging again (that gives more disadvantages than real advantages anyway) and give us some bigger secure containers! 20k m¦ for example. What I'm really looking forward to is the ammount of space that those deleted cans were using up... Gigabytes? More? Saint, give us an update after the first cleaning... There were probably some five year old (litteraly, we're vomming to 5 years in a few months...) forgotten containers rusting somewhere in a location that's so safe that even the owner forgot where it was... --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Centisa Fisk	Posted - 2008.03.30 10:56:00 - [319] Originally by: Von Druid I think the "generic space junk" shouldn't just disappear on the first downtime of every month. Say if I'm in a carrier with fighters out and just forget to call them in before downtime on the last day of the month (stupid I know), they'll be gone instantly after downtime. Whereas if I do the same on the first day of the month, I'll have a full month to search and pick my fighters up. If generic space junk had a timer too, this would be a non-issue. It doesn't need to be a full month, just a week or even two days. Just something to prevent stuff from disappearing from space after a single downtime. The blog says after 30 days of no activity, not just the 1st day of the month.
Miter	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:38:00 - [320] Originally by: Centisa Fisk The blog says after 30 days of no activity, not just the 1st day of the month. The 30 days is for inactive cans. The deletion on the 1st of the month is for other space junk. This extremely poor idea is well described in the blog. This is not a signature.
Miter	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:24:00 - [321] Here is a picture of what remains after a large battle at downtime. If this happened today, instead of yesterday, all those drones 'abandoned' by the enemy would go poof at downtime. Deleting things immediately on a magic day of the month is such a poor idea, I'm amazed it made it into the game. It's OK that you have zero game design skills. There is no shame that. Just, please, get to be buddies with a game designer who can review your ideas to prevent the more bone-headed ones from making it into the game. Thank you. This is not a signature.
123 BeerForFree	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:00:00 - [322] I'd really really like to know in detail how much of that space junk - that has been created since 2003 - was deleted on 1st April and 15th April. Please tell me numbers to get a feeling for that.
Nitemare111	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:07:00 - [323] Y'know, insert name of whiner, there is no "perfect" way to do this. What one person likes, another doesn't. Personally, I'm perfectly happy with the way CCP is doing this. Finally, all the junk idiots like you leave around will be gone. Is that why you hate this? Got GSCs floating around advertising your pimpness? Upset because you won't be able to go loot a battlefield right after DT? Feel upset because CCP didn't do things YOUR way? Or have you just left a bunch of ships somewhere, and can't find them, and don't want them to dissappear? Oh noes! Mah cainz will go! How r peeps gunna now how cuul I is? Just because you don't like or understand what's going on doesn't mean you get to castigate CCP. They're not perfect, sure, but shouldn't you see what happens before whining? ---This gripe brought to you by the number Z, the letter 4, and people tired of all the whining by lazy/stupid **s.--- ------ "When in doubt, aim for the crotch." "There's no problem that the application of suitable firepower cannot fix." Originally by:** A Belief Nothing is yours until it's ISK in your wallet. So it goes.
Ab Tallen	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:59:00 - [324] So, was there a generic junk cleanup run yesterday or not?
Backley	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:56:00 - [325] Originally by: Ab Tallen So, was there a generic junk cleanup run yesterday or not? There definitely wasn't a full generic junk cleanup yet. I still am picking up un-anchored cans left in space (all from bookmarks I made last month). When will the first generic cleanup take place? Has the rule changed?

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.04.04 10:05:00 - [326] Nothing happened yesterday BUT the rules haven't changed. We're just delaying things a tad. No containers should have been despawned anyways yet. Too bad about them drones, would have like to see them gone but I'm sure scavengers rejoice at an extra month of sweet fighter scooping. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Nude Girl University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.05 01:32:00 - [327] Originally by: CCP Prism X Nothing happened yesterday BUT the rules haven't changed. We're just delaying things a tad. No containers should have been despawned anyways yet... Unless I read the blog wrong, any un-anchored container should be included in the "generic" clean up (whenever that first happens). This would include Secure Containers that haven't been anchored (and therefore don't have a countdown listed on their properties) and Standard Containers that aren't anchorable. Right?
Syri Taneka Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:49:00 - [328] Unless I've missed something, you still haven't given us a concrete answer on what constitutes "near" a POS. I'd really like to know if I need to go play with my cans at the moon my corps' POS is at every 30 days. I can see them from the POS - is this "near"? -------------------------------------- Bishop Endarr > christ, the church is a massive smack machine
Ky Vatta Caldari Majority 12	Posted - 2008.04.10 19:57:00 - [329] RIP to those cans I`ve forgotten the passwords for.....it`s finally going to happen (funny, I could have sworn CCP promised to remove those cans years ago... --- Self-confessed Carebear, and proud of it
VXxed Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:25:00 - [330] I think this is a great idea, but I only have one suggestion/plea! Please leave the Eve Gate out of this..I was there once, and a lot of people have left anchored mementos, some to old girlfriends, some to dead friends, but it's a special place where people leave anchored containers for the sake of memory. Would you be able to leave the Eve Gate out of this new patch to uproot useless junk?
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.04.12 12:03:00 - [331] Originally by: VXxed I think this is a great idea, but I only have one suggestion/plea! Please leave the Eve Gate out of this..I was there once, and a lot of people have left anchored mementos, some to old girlfriends, some to dead friends, but it's a special place where people leave anchored containers for the sake of memory. Would you be able to leave the Eve Gate out of this new patch to uproot useless junk? Yea would be nice if CCP gave every player an Eve Gate can so the fun can continue:) Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
QuasiArt	Posted - 2008.04.13 13:24:00 - [332] Dear CCP Prism X, I havent been online lately so I am a bit late with my comment, but I have been pondering the junk problem for a while myself. I ask myself why you would want to introduce new timers, safe places near POS's etc if you could use game mechanics in a very natural and effective way to resolve the junk problem? The "natural" solution would be, because all structures/ships/cans/debris in space have hull hitpoints, to inflict hull damage to all player owned objects in space that are offline at every downtime (the amount of damage could vary for the different types of objects). If players want to keep their objects, all they need to do is go out there with a remote repair module equipped and repair the inflicted damage. This way the "hand of God" would not be required, no new database fields would have to be created, no selection/exception rules implemented and it would be completely non-discriminant. To be honest I found one post with the same idea in this complete thread: Originally by: Karma Edited by: Karma on 15/02/2008 13:28:50 I approve... in principle... but, the idea that abandoned ships and drones and fighters will be removed only once a month, and all of them at the same time ... I don't really know how to put it, but... if you'll excuse a metaphor: having an almighty hand of CCP come into the game and sweep the floor clean once a month feels a bit too... much like Deus Ex Machina. it removes some of the living nature of the game. having space junk like that have a timer just like anchored cans might be a better idea, atleast when it comes to game-experience... though not hardware-wise. edit: right... that was answered it seems... ships don't have the attributes so it's not technically viable... but they DO have an attribute you could use. hull. a ship that isn't being piloted could take damage from being out in cold space. it's powered down, so no shield-power. I'll let your imagination go wild as to what level of damage per second/minute/day they should take though. Too bad the idea hasn't been spotted. All in all, this idea would clean out the junk, stay inline with the RPG part and use game mechanics to do the job. Sincerely, QuasiArt
Sunbird Huy Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 21:52:00 - [333] can't find my post...
Kaz Harper	Posted - 2008.04.15 13:18:00 - [334] EXCELLENT! This is a great initiative indeed, especially for many of us with less than stellar computers. Death to space junk!
Echthalian Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.15 16:36:00 - [335] 30 days is way to short. Should be 90 days. If I take a brake from the game for 1 month, I come back and have to redo all my cans, and I loose my stuff in them! Come on now, that is not fair. ANOTHER CHORE added to the chore list of maintaining a EVE char, now I HAVE to make a point to goto each can...
Cpt Korg 911th Truth Squadron	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:01:00 - [336] I personally have no problem with Junk Cleanup, however, I think that there needs to be a more discriminating way to allow it. By this I mean that I think a can should be deleted after thirty days of inactivity, but only if the owner of said can has also been inactive for the last 30 days. As it stands, I will never be able to maintain the MILLIONS I have spent building a secure mining business throughout empire space using GSC's planted in the belts of certain systems. Why don't you just go ahead and nerf my corp while you're at it? The secure mining operation was how I built its infrastructure throughout empire space as a noob. Glad I have a hulk now Btw, will the owners of deleted cans be credited with their value in ISK? What about contents? This klingon says this blows Signed, One Unhappy Camper
Aschella	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:25:00 - [337] I think for the most part this is a great idea, as do most other players. 30 days might be a bit too short though. Please leave Azia Burgi's cemetery and the cans at the EVE Gate if at all possible.
Miney McRefinerson	Posted - 2008.04.16 10:34:00 - [338] just trying to figure out why people who would go on a hiatus would leave their crap in cans, instead of taking it to an NPC hangar at least. also if you've got sufficient logistic issues to NEED can caches, you prolly have a friendly POS you could build near.
Shakawendi Wallsfell	Posted - 2008.04.22 17:12:00 - [339] Okay, I am interfacing with my cans daily since the clean up and in checking their timers they are counting down from 30 EVEN THOUGH I HAVE OPENED them. Is this the way the patch is supposed to be functioning? Or shouldn't it be re-setting to 30 each day I enter the can?
TheBeaster	Posted - 2008.04.30 12:07:00 - [340] I was sick for about a month and a half, and when i came back my cans were gone. I would realy like them back since i had alot of valuable things in them. My subscription was ok during this time. I just didnt have time to play, barely if i changed skill training. What do i do to get my cans back. I am talking about 2 giant secure containers archored in low security space where i do my NPC.
raven415 Caldari Special Projects Corp	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:14:00 - [341] a long time back ccp moved the stargates around. some were added and some taken away. when they took the gates they left the billboards. now i understand the cans that were around these gates will be removed but what of the billboards.

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