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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.02.17 06:17:00 -
[181]
Congrats on your first blog, CCP Prism X. I support this 100%
And as you'll get to learn; you can't write a dev-blog without getting alot of whines. People always find something to whine about. I wouldn't be surprised if 95% of the Eve-population think this is a great idea, people have been asking for this for a very long time now.
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Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2008.02.17 07:57:00 -
[182]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why delete rather than unlock and allow others to scoop them up?
It defeats the idea of the whole thing. We want to get rid of them, not just flip a bit in the database.
Anchorable structures and unanchored cans?
Anchorable structures are not trash. We're not going to nuke any Starbases you've not visited in the last 30 days. Unanchored cans will be considered junk at the next downtime and promptly deleted.
A better one for me to reply to ...
Both these concerns would be addressed if the anchored cans only became unanchored after the timeout of inactivity. No need for auto-deletion at all.
The unanchored items are all collectible by scavengers. As many have already said, this is a done thing even now. With auto-deanchoring in place, scavenging would only increase. I fail to see how this "defeats" the intent of your efforts.
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Nova Fox
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Posted - 2008.02.17 08:17:00 -
[183]
Question that isnt about the ca or the mgy
Why not move up the non-can junk cleanup daily with the down time or is that to stressful on the servers? Or is it just to help out players recover should they be inconvienced at the sudden shutdown?
Just wondering because there is players that are on odd ends of the world where the first of the month happens entirely different day and may not be able to accurate remember the uk's first of the month easy.
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Niki Silver
Ethereal Imperium
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Posted - 2008.02.17 08:21:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Niki Silver on 17/02/2008 08:22:41
About friggen time, players have been asking for this for years.
Now, please do the same thing with player assets. Don't dock in a station for a month, assets go bye bye.
edit to add: Make the cleanup happen every downtime, get rid of those piles of noob ships so many thousands of ignorant and inconsiderate players leave at undock points each and every day.
Ethereal Imperium [E-IMP] is recruiting! Please visit our webpage for more information. |
Robert Sky
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Posted - 2008.02.17 11:13:00 -
[185]
Yes!!! No more warping to a belt in empire and lagging out for 20 minutes! Not that I mine anyways.
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Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.17 11:14:00 -
[186]
Transfer all space junk to Jita to help with the lag there.
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Puritalas Frame
Space Salvage Incorperated
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Posted - 2008.02.17 11:18:00 -
[187]
As a salvager, can I also suggest that the mechanics of the clean-up be altered slightly to enable those of us who enjoy salvaging to continue to do so ?
Would it be possible to break the clean-up into a two pass process ? The first pass un-anchors cans and identifies junk that can be removed. This information is written to a file and then processed in the downtime in say 4-5 days time ? If the junk is gone, or the can is now anchored again then nothing happens, else off to the bin it goes. Technically, it needs a little bit of extra effort to code round the issue of the item either not existing or in the case of cans, being re-anchored in the meantime. But it would improve the options for those of us who engage in scavenging.
If you canÆt, you canÆt, but if I donÆt ask then thereÆs no chance of it happening.
Salvage Upgrade Idea|Internal Slots |
Poreuomai
Minmatar Naval Protection Corp Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.02.17 11:20:00 -
[188]
Originally by: CCP Prism X But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems.
As far as New Eden is concerned, a solution could be some object where single line messages can be left for others to read. Also for the graveyard, a single huge container which has 'open & look-into' access only (except for a password holder) would mean that the graveyard owner would have to 'touch' just that one can every month.
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Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2008.02.17 11:55:00 -
[189]
Rather than do it in this way, have the same expiration timers, however once timer is reached have containers default to unanchored and unlocked. Means we can salvage the containers and leftovers ourselves.
Salvaging 50 containers in a belt at 300k per container nets 15m and makes us all warm and fuzzy knowing we have helped the initiative
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Elseer Radak
Gallente Ad Astra Vexillum Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.17 12:03:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Elseer Radak on 17/02/2008 12:05:12 Edited by: Elseer Radak on 17/02/2008 12:03:55 All,
I think removal of space junk is a very good idea. Anything that makes the servers work better and thus make eve faster and more stable is a good thing, imnso. That said, I think discussions of player made content like the graveyard, the eve gate, etc. should be handled by the ISD event folks.
IT would be cool if Valuable art and relics could be protected -- within the constraints of game mechanics. A quick idea that come to mind are:
1) Players convince ISD Event board something is worth saving or doing. 2) ISD agrees. Places a POS on a moon, can art, grave yard etc. is moved inside that pos. 3) ISD grants "Caretaker" rights to the maintainer or maintainers. 4) ISD places a beacon inside the system that points to the reliquary 5) Folks can now view, from outside of the POS, the reliquary
One could also add a bulletin board that records names or passerby perhaps. I'm not certain how to fit this into game mechanics but if the idea is valuable enough then perhaps the ISD events folks can look into how to accomplish the goal without making the Database devs like CCP Saint work so hard :>
edit: speling , clarity
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Frug
True Foundation R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.02.17 13:20:00 -
[191]
Since there's a bunch of posts asking for new eden to remain untouched I'm going say that I think new eden looks like a cheap junk heap. I don't have any sentimental attachment to "joe was here 2004" canffiti. Someone should fly out there and blast all those cans to bits the old fashioned way so prismx isn't held responsible.
Originally by: "sijira" a monument to azia is not a solution to anything
Nice to know you speak for her.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.02.17 14:14:00 -
[192]
I'm not sure why people keep asking for this or that to be kept around when PrismX clearly said that there will be NO exceptions whatsoever. It is technically not a viable option to make exceptions and it'd open a can of whines, when people start to demand exceptions for this or that because it was done before.
As for people asking for unanchoring, yeah, right, I can almost see them frothing on their keyboards at the prospect of all the thousands and thousands of cans around free for their taking. While greed is a viable motivator in Eve, it shouldn't be supported in such a metagaming manner.
All unattended containers get deleted. No exceptions. No unacnhoring. Less lag for everyone.
It's greatness manifest! -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Jita Dancer
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Posted - 2008.02.17 16:54:00 -
[193]
Rather than just make them dissapear on the first of the month, make them salvageable on the first of the month. Delete any that haven't been salvaged two weeks later.
Salvage should return a percentage of their contents based on your salvaging skill, and maybe some t1 salvage or something. Of course, if someone salvages something, and doesnt want it (200 x 800 Cap Charges that wont fit in the hold etc) its sat there in a jet can which lasts a couple of hours before disintegrating.
This would give us one more thing to do in the game if we wanted, doesn't have to be a giant source of income.
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padraig animal
Minmatar MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.17 18:17:00 -
[194]
Hmm i go for the option 3 times a month , no container fields anymore wow what a refresing sight must that be ...
\o/ i say way to go ccp ,imo it may been few years back already ;)
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Geana Tem
SCREAMING MEME'S
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Posted - 2008.02.17 20:02:00 -
[195]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Just to iterate: I wont favour any one person, or her activities, over any other.
I don't say I'm sorry. I never have. I hardly admit that I'm wrong when I obviously am. But I'm truly sorry about this.
Mate, you just ratched up - like, nine points - in my personal approval rating...
I can see why you need to stick to your guns in this first instance.
But, for the future the issue of exceptions for exceptional cases needs to be discussed by the gods. You can't give power away and keep it at the same time. ------------------------------- genders have been changed to protect the guilty and confuse the innocent |
Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2008.02.17 20:51:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Abrazzar As for people asking for unanchoring, yeah, right, I can almost see them frothing on their keyboards at the prospect of all the thousands and thousands of cans around free for their taking. While greed is a viable motivator in Eve, it shouldn't be supported in such a metagaming manner.
What!? Why not? And how is this a metagaming idea at all? I mean it's all pretty clear cut and within realistic comparison even.
Some pilots builds them, some pilots buy and deploy them, some pilots leave them abandoned, and some pilots salvage and sell/reprocess them again. Maybe even getting some loot from them.
There is plenty of warning about the change and if you don't want someone else to loot your abandoned cans then it's a simple case of running back and taking them down yourself.
It seems quite neat to me that this could be a mini-profession. I have a few cans around, not many, but I can see myself going back and checking those locations just to see how many cans are still there a couple of months after such a change just for curiosity.
BTW, The big problem I have with Prism's planned change is it will wipe out many a deep space stash. Some of which will be very expensive.
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Gunner
Flashman Services
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Posted - 2008.02.17 21:43:00 -
[197]
Cleanup is not a bad idea as far as stargates or belts are concerned, but removing anchored cans in the middle of nowhere on a grid that most likely only the owner of the can ever loads into his memory is just plain stupid imo.
Also secure anchored cans can be a tactical issue, used to store ammo and charges. Hate to see that option being taken away from us.
*** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
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Tido Maliyu
Condottieri Industries The Economy
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Posted - 2008.02.17 22:20:00 -
[198]
But what about the space-art? sharks? graveyards? Will they be removed? :o
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Argus Greymoore
Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.17 22:27:00 -
[199]
I think folks coming down on Prism need to look at it from his perspective. No doubt, the higher ups came to him and asked, "Need for speed...what can you do on the DB end?" His reply was to clean up the space junk.
I'm willing to gamble hard ISK that CCP thought a while on the response, and knew it would mean the end of the graveyard, etc. In the end, they gave the green light to removing the junk.
In a nutshell, it's not Prism's place to worry about game content, design, player creativity or history. His job is simple: keep the database running as effeciently as possible. I've got to applaude him on not backing down on the position.
For the record, I think this is a good thing to do. I've never visited New Eden, or the graveyard, though I might try to hit them before the junk goes. But if they need to go for the sake of speed, let them become fond tales told by players to keep their memory alive.
Also for the record, I've got 12 secure cans spread across two hi-sec belts that I rarely touch. They're there just in case an ore theif pops in. I'll be happy to touch them once a month to keep them around.
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Windryder
New Fnord Industries Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.02.18 01:42:00 -
[200]
Doesn't this mean that EVE is no-longer a "persistent universe" in MMORG terms?
Why are all the cans loaded at session change anyway? Why aren't they loaded when you enter the same grid? You know, like the graphical models are?
What about offline POS Towers? When do they get removed?
I hate can-spam too, but I remember the first time I saw the can-art in Faurent; a fantastic picture of a cow jumping... seen from the right angle it was a cow jumping a moon. To lose that serendipitous discovery of something special just disappoints.
One of the few things that makes exploration interesting is finding the junk other people have left behind.
Look something *does* have to be done about can-spam... ...can you not do it with some user-operated unanchoring function? ...or set the timer to be longer on cans that no-one ever sees on their overview? ...shorter timer on the ones that are at busy gates? ...enforce anchoring standings every downtime? If someones/some corps standing drops below the system sec-level their can unanchors? ...make them use Starbase Anchoring Charters at a rate of 1 per day?
I think that simply "sweeping them away" is a BAD IDEA. The cans and junk are one of the few ways that us players can actually ALTER THE ENVIRONMENT. It also seems very "deus-ex-machinas" in that there is no logical in-game reason for this stuff to vanish.
I would really hate to see the works of art evaporate, the shrines at the EVE-Gate disappear, the cemetary vanish etc.
I'm not sure I'd want to play in a game universe that's so *sterile*.
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2008.02.18 02:38:00 -
[201]
This change is very cool.
Is it possible to build giant secure cans in 0.0? I have hauled a lot of them out there but never remember having one built.
They are pretty important to drone region alliances and hauling them is painful
Also I understand that this will take some load off the server and also reduce lag when warping to a gate/belt that is usually covered in cans.
Would it be possible to get some settings put in so that cans will never load graphically? or wrecks? every time a ship pops in a fleet battle there is a small amount of lag caused for me, could this be reduced by allowing people to remove the 3d representation of cans/wrecks (they are no longer colidable so are they really necessary visually?)
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Dashboard
Hard Rock Cafe
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Posted - 2008.02.18 05:26:00 -
[202]
Originally by: CCP Prism X If I leave my fighters out, during downtime, the 1st of every month.. they'll be deleted.
Yes. That's why we're giving you this information well ahead of time. And honestly, why would you leave your fighters out in open space during any downtime? You get an hours worth of time to at the least call them back into your bay. I'll honestly maintain that this forward notice, along with the 60 minute pre-DT notice, along with the fact that you really shouldn't risk being in open space during down time (much less in a mission fighting) should make this a non-issue.
When I lived in Australia, downtime was right in my prime time. To get my money's worth I'd routinely play right up to the wire.
And what's a mission? Is that like a fleet battle :)? Because I've been in a fair few of those in my time, including some that ran for hours before DT to hours afterwards.
If you're really unable to find a solution, then the downtime warning message should be modified to announce that a Space Junk Cleanup will occur in 1h.
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Jordan Musgrat
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.02.18 07:00:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 18/02/2008 07:00:04
Originally by: Xenofur
What you are doing here, is simply put, reducing the game's status as a unique and persistent world and bringing it closer to a heartless and streamlined space combat simulator.
A game like this lives from the stories as much as from anything else, especially when the original developers are simply put overwhelmed with the task of creating more stories. It should be the duty of every mmo developer to give players the tools to create mroe stories, instead of doing the opposite.
The idea is good, lots of crap could be cleaned. But get real, this is where you're headed.
Originally by: Niki Silver About friggen time, players have been asking for this for years.
Now, please do the same thing with player assets. Don't dock in a station for a month, assets go bye bye.
Do you see the direction you're going in? You may be paid to maintain the database, but is that really what you need to be doing? Or should you be trying to create a better experience for the average player? Again, the idea is great. Now do the work you need to do to ensure that you aren't screwing people's work up. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Maximillian Power
Minmatar Twilight Faction
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Posted - 2008.02.18 08:46:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Maximillian Power on 18/02/2008 08:46:49 I say this with all due respect - the architecture is wrong not the number of items.
You need to revisit the underlying reasons for caching this stuff because all you are doing is buying yourself another x number of players before you hit the same problem.
It sounds to me like the architecture of loading everything into the session when you jump into a system is what is flawed. You could lazy load on warp etc - load everything that is on the grid, but only load overview enabled stuff off of grid etc.
Anyway love the game - think you guys do a great job - hope you come up with a good solution
Please note I am stating this with no real knowledge of the stuff. I'm just saying what it sounds like.
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Bad Brown
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Posted - 2008.02.18 09:05:00 -
[205]
How far from starbases? Sometimes we use cans positioned @ warp in points to de-cloak nosey pilots, we kind of like that feature.
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.02.18 09:34:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Gunner Cleanup is not a bad idea as far as stargates or belts are concerned, but removing anchored cans in the middle of nowhere on a grid that most likely only the owner of the can ever loads into his memory is just plain stupid imo.
Read the blog and dev comments again. PrismX has clearly stated that it does not matter which grid the can is in. It makes no difference whether the cans are outside a busy station or at a deep safe in the back end of beyond. It has the same cache-knackering effect.
Originally by: Gunner Also secure anchored cans can be a tactical issue, used to store ammo and charges. Hate to see that option being taken away from us.
And touching your ammo dump once a month is really too much effort? Ammo dumps that are actively being used will be unaffected. What it will get rid of is the large number of stores laid down by players and alliances that either no longer exist, or have no intention of going back to that part of space again.
Originally by: Windryder Why are all the cans loaded at session change anyway? Why aren't they loaded when you enter the same grid? You know, like the graphical models are?
PrismX already explained this. If you want to load only the cans on the same grid, you have to do proximity checks to decide which cans to load, and which not to. It's actually less server load just to load all the cans, than to decide which to load and which to exclude.
Originally by: Maximillian Power You need to revisit the underlying reasons for caching this stuff because all you are doing is buying yourself another x number of players before you hit the same problem.
Welcome to the world of computers. That's all you're doing with any code change, hardware upgrade, mechanic redesign etc.
When you boil it right back, there is a minimum amount of data needed per can to describe that can within the game world. If you want to run that can within your game simulation, you either need to cache that data in local memory, or retrieve it from the DB every time it's needed. DB retrievals are always going to be slower than local memory, and local memory is always going to have a limited capacity. There is no architectural way around this.
Originally by: Maximillian Power It sounds to me like the architecture of loading everything into the session when you jump into a system is what is flawed. You could lazy load on warp etc - load everything that is on the grid, but only load overview enabled stuff off of grid etc.
Even if you find a way of determining which cans are and are not in the grid without loading all of them to check, it's still not a solution acceptable to any responsible server admin.
The point of can art is to see it, so if nobody ever warps to that grid to see it, it may as well not be there anyway. And as soon as 1 person warps to it, all those cans have to be loaded, filling up the memory and causing the problems.
What you describe is great when the load generated is proportional to the number of players present. But it isn't in this case - the cans take up the same cache space whether 1 player is looking at them, or 1000.
It's also building in another obvious lag bomb mechanism. Alliances would anchor a grid full of secure containers, and have an alt warp to them to lag out the node every time they're losing. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
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CCP Ginger
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Posted - 2008.02.18 09:49:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Scifi
The death of the graveyard is harsh though given it's recent news coverage...
Hey guys, just popped in to clarify something that may or may not be clear :) News coverage of this sort is handled by the ISD Interstellar Correspondents team and they are allowed to write about player news that comes across their way, we dont restrict what they can write about so a news item isnt an official CCP endorsement of any player activity, its just journo's writing about something of interest.
Hope that clears things up, that being said, my apologies for the interruption to your discussion and please carry on.
Lots of love, Ginger.
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Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:03:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Matthew Ammo dumps that are actively being used will be unaffected.
Until a can is missed. Then poof! If this burden is placed on the player then maybe the pilot and/or corp needs an "secured assets" list to track all the refreshing that will be needed.
Quote: What it will get rid of is the large number of stores laid down by players and alliances that either no longer exist, or have no intention of going back to that part of space again.
You might be surprised how fast those would be cleaned up with just deanchoring in place instead of the planned deletion.
At the very least, start with the less destructive approach before going all-out lethal.
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Kransthow
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.02.18 11:43:00 -
[209]
This is all very nice and good but how much will it actually do to combat lag?
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.02.18 12:05:00 -
[210]
Good move.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
General Aesthetics Changes Thread |
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