I'm wondering if there is any real advantage to flying Gallente? outside of an Itty V

Now that I'm doing nullsec pvp, everyone seems to be in love with projectiles and drakes.

^^ Figured out why no one flies Gallente. Most fleets in null sec can't trust their members to do more than press F1. Gallente has some great pvp ships for small gangs and solo work. Somehow, I doubt that's the sort of pvp you do...

i do fly an ishkur as my favorite frigate.

But as far as most BC/BS fleets for null pvp purposes, i have found my gallente skills are close to pointless...

i do fly an ishkur as my favorite frigate.

But as far as most BC/BS fleets for null pvp purposes, i have found my gallente skills are close to pointless...

I don't really see much disadvantages, tbh. Perhaps Gal is a bit more SP-demanding?

That's probably the main thing that turns off people from flying gallente.

First lets look at the skill plans of other races (excluding basic skills such as starting drone skills, rog skills, and navigation skills)

Minmatar

Projectile Turrets
Gunnery
Shields


Caldari

Missiles
Shields

Amarr

Lasers
Gunnery
Armor

Gallente

Hybrids
Advanced Drone skills
Gunnery
Armor

As you can see Amarr and Minmatar are for the most part equally used (minmatar slightly more but not too much), you may notice that there are only two major skills for Caldari, missiles and shields. Railguns still don't apply enough DPS to be considered for PVP up until the battleship level. The need to only focus on two skill trees may be the reason why Caldari ships are so appealing.

I also did not mention missiles under the Minmatar tree as the poor Minmatar power grids generally prevent adding on missiles.

That's probably the main thing that turns off people from flying gallente.

First lets look at the skill plans of other races (excluding basic skills such as starting drone skills, rog skills, and navigation skills)

Every race has their ups and downs. As stated before, gallente are awesome for solo and small gang work. For null blobs they are not good. Deal with it. Stop being a null bear.

What is a null bear? What would you rather me do? I guess since you say i need to stop being a nullbear then I need to go do something else. Please tell me so I'm not just another lost soul flying around in nullsec being some sort of large furry animal.

Troll elsewhere

How would a gallente bs fight a tengu. Using blasters to hit something at 30k wouldnt work too well. Using railguns wouldnt seem too effective either. Seems a raven although not the greatest ship in the universe would at least be able to shoot back.

My opinion is Gallente sux. I have been Gallente for like a year but I'm switching to caldari ships. When my friends Tengu has double the dps as my faction BS I am totally discouraged. It is nice to kinda afk and snipe while watching tv. The biggest drawback is the 10seconds it takes to switch ammo when the enemy gets too close. some ship rep most of the damage you caused in that amount of time. Adding to a lot of wasted ammo/isk and time. With the latest update this time has been reduced to 5 secs, which is a tremendous improvement. I still think 5 secs is too long. When you have ships at 10k 20k 30k 40k its too time consuming constantly changing. Normally if ships are spread out I use the wrong ammo just because I don't want to change constantly. Also I carry 16 types of ammo. With missiles that would be reduced to 2 types. It's not an issue to worry about but it does take a little longer reloading ammo and buying it. Also increases the likelyhood of accidentally sellecting the wrong ammo when in combat. It's very annoying waiting for ammo to load knowing you will just have to reload again when it finishes. I'm sure someone is going to ask why I have 16 types of ammo. I do so because I have 8 for 8 different ranges. An extra 8 types of expensive ammo for missions that really test my tank.

Drawbacks that I see are.
Reloading ammo types for range = wasted isk and time.
Non-specific Damage types for specific enemies = wasted isk and time
Loosing drones = wasted isk and time.
Forgetting to recall drones = wasted isk and time.
Slow BS's = wasted isk and time.
Killing Caldari and Amarr can get you banned from Jita.
Hybrid charges are consistantly double the price as heavy missiles = wasted isk
My biggest mistake in eve was starting out Gallente.
Fleeting is counter productive. Unless I have aggro there is too much transversal velocity for my to hit very well. Solo they fly right into my line of fire. With missiles this would not be an issue.
Hybrid weapons require more specialized implants and a lot more training.

Benefits are drones
Better mission areas.
The names of gallente systems seem to be based on the english language while Caldari and Amarr???
I can fit a Navy Mega for 1/4 the price of my tengu.
You dont loose sp when you loose a Megathron. Though you could use a CNR instead of a tengu but I don't.
After a year of missioning in Gallente space I have only seen ninja salvagers about 4 times. In Caldari and Amarr space its an every day occurance.

This is just my opinion. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

How would a gallente bs fight a tengu. Using blasters to hit something at 30k wouldnt work too well. Using railguns wouldnt seem too effective either. Seems a raven although not the greatest ship in the universe would at least be able to shoot back.

How would a gallente bs fight a tengu. Using blasters to hit something at 30k wouldnt work too well. Using railguns wouldnt seem too effective either. Seems a raven although not the greatest ship in the universe would at least be able to shoot back.

Wut? Tengu does more deeps than faction BSs?

Ah yes forgot about drone skills. There seem to be as many drone skills as there are ship skills. That would seem to double the sp required to max out your dps. Tengu seems very short to train for by comparison. And now switching to a Tengu makes all those lvl 5 drone skills a waste. Ah well I have enough Gallente ships for a museum now. How much should I charge for admittance?

... I carry 16 types of ammo.

It's very annoying waiting for ammo to load knowing you will just have to reload again when it finishes. I'm sure someone is going to ask why I have 16 types of ammo. I do so because I have 8 for 8 different ranges. An extra 8 types of expensive ammo for missions that really test my tank.

... (stuff)...

This is just my opinion. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

How would a gallente bs fight a tengu. Using blasters to hit something at 30k wouldnt work too well. Using railguns wouldnt seem too effective either. Seems a raven although not the greatest ship in the universe would at least be able to shoot back.

I have all +5 implants and my friend with a tengu has +3's. He kills 2x as fast as I do. I mission with him all the time, I am not blind. It's very easy to see his battleships blowing up twice as fast as mine.

I should also tell you that most of my +5 implants are tracking or dps. My friends +3's are mostly just for shields. That makes it even worse to see him doing twice my dps.

If that earlier comment about comparing the tengu to a whole race of ships was directed at me... I wasn't. I was just saying my friends tengu has double the dps as my faction BS. I was saying that, only cause I'm switching from a megathron to a tengu. Maybe the megathron can do more dps with blasters or t2 guns but I don't have the skills for them and I am disappointed to where I don't want to spend any further sp on it. I only know about the tengu because he is the only one I mission with. I was very impressed with a nightmare that I fleeted with also.
When I see a cruiser with double my BS's dps and a whole lot more versatility, I can't help but be disappointed. Maybe it wouldn't be that way if I skilled up to t2's and got a Kronos but that's a whole lot of sp spent on a maybe. I'd rather spend it on tengu skills.

I fit mostly for dps. I don't have t2 guns but I am using the best t1's I can get.

Calling someone a lier and an idiot is gentle critics???? I'd hate to see harshe critics!
By implants. Sorry I was referring to hardwires and I think anyone with common sense would know that! I guess you an English critic as well.

I guess if responding to someone calling you a lier and an idiot is trolling.... I'm a big fat troll then! By you calling hardwires which is what you know i meant, learning implants... I think you are the troll...

Gallente are great, imo. Don't blame the ships, blame the nullsec doctrine. Piling on more tank and more dps on F1 spamming ships will lose to more strategically and tactically savvy fleets every time. The only real problem is actually getting an entire fleet of internet spaceship nerds to not only understand, but also be able to use good tactics in conjunction with each other.

It's like herding housecats, I tell ya!

So what did I actually write that was wrong?

I fight in ranges from 20k to 135k. I may be wrong but I don't think 3 ammo types would cover that.

As far as having double the dps... I have all +5 implants and my friend with a tengu has +3's. He kills 2x as fast as I do. I mission with him all the time, I am not blind.

Why people feel the need to insult others is beyond me. Maybe he feels smarter that way. All bow to the genious.

Drawbacks that I see are.
Reloading ammo types for range = wasted isk and time.
Non-specific Damage types for specific enemies = wasted isk and time
Loosing drones = wasted isk and time.
Forgetting to recall drones = wasted isk and time.
Slow BS's = wasted isk and time.
Killing Caldari and Amarr can get you banned from Jita.
Hybrid charges are consistantly double the price as heavy missiles = wasted isk
My biggest mistake in eve was starting out Gallente.
Fleeting is counter productive. Unless I have aggro there is too much transversal velocity for my to hit very well. Solo they fly right into my line of fire. With missiles this would not be an issue.
Hybrid weapons require more specialized implants and a lot more training.

My opinion is Gallente sux. I have been Gallente for like a year but I'm switching to caldari ships. When my friends Tengu has double the dps as my faction BS I am totally discouraged. It is nice to kinda afk and snipe while watching tv. The biggest drawback is the 10seconds it takes to switch ammo when the enemy gets too close. some ship rep most of the damage you caused in that amount of time. Adding to a lot of wasted ammo/isk and time. With the latest update this time has been reduced to 5 secs, which is a tremendous improvement. I still think 5 secs is too long. When you have ships at 10k 20k 30k 40k its too time consuming constantly changing. Normally if ships are spread out I use the wrong ammo just because I don't want to change constantly. Also I carry 16 types of ammo. With missiles that would be reduced to 2 types. It's not an issue to worry about but it does take a little longer reloading ammo and buying it. Also increases the likelyhood of accidentally sellecting the wrong ammo when in combat. It's very annoying waiting for ammo to load knowing you will just have to reload again when it finishes. I'm sure someone is going to ask why I have 16 types of ammo. I do so because I have 8 for 8 different ranges. An extra 8 types of expensive ammo for missions that really test my tank.

Drawbacks that I see are.
Reloading ammo types for range = wasted isk and time.
Non-specific Damage types for specific enemies = wasted isk and time
Loosing drones = wasted isk and time.
Forgetting to recall drones = wasted isk and time.
Slow BS's = wasted isk and time.
Killing Caldari and Amarr can get you banned from Jita.
Hybrid charges are consistantly double the price as heavy missiles = wasted isk
My biggest mistake in eve was starting out Gallente.
Fleeting is counter productive. Unless I have aggro there is too much transversal velocity for my to hit very well. Solo they fly right into my line of fire. With missiles this would not be an issue.
Hybrid weapons require more specialized implants and a lot more training.

Benefits are drones
Better mission areas.
The names of gallente systems seem to be based on the english language while Caldari and Amarr???
I can fit a Navy Mega for 1/4 the price of my tengu.
You dont loose sp when you loose a Megathron. Though you could use a CNR instead of a tengu but I don't.
After a year of missioning in Gallente space I have only seen ninja salvagers about 4 times. In Caldari and Amarr space its an every day occurance.

This is just my opinion. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Calling someone a lier and an idiot is gentle critics????

I'd hate to see harshe critics!

By implants. Sorry I was referring to hardwires and I think anyone with common sense would know that!

I guess you an English critic as well.

I guess if responding to someone calling you a lier and an idiot is trolling.... I'm a big fat troll then! By you calling hardwires which is what you know i meant, learning implants... I think you are the troll...

Gallente has rather substantial advantages in anything involving words "small gang", "wormhole" and "frigate", for example.
Null buffs have negated a lot of the AC range advantage in practical situations, and face melting dps is more truer than before. Drone bays on almost every ship add a lot of flexibility.

I don't really see much disadvantages, tbh. Perhaps Gal is a bit more SP-demanding?

So, what I'm hearing is that gallente ships are good in "small gang pvp", provided you don't fly Amarr, or Caldari, or Minmatar.


riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

if you're not able to bring that awesomeness to bear

When I see a cruiser with double my BS's dps and a whole lot more versatility, I can't help but be disappointed. Maybe it wouldn't be that way if I skilled up to t2's and got a Kronos but that's a whole lot of sp spent on a maybe. I'd rather spend it on tengu skills.

i solo'd a welp cane in my shield blaster brutix. did he use his range? no i didn't let him. learn to fly any ship in the game and you'll get results.

A welp cane isnt really meant to fight solo. If he was, he was a noob. The brutix can mount more guns than the cane can. plus has better drone bay.

Don't forget... the 'Cane has a double damage bonus (rate of fire and damage) and is faster and more mobile than the Brutix. If the 'Cane pilot was smart, he/she would have pulled range and burned away.

obv they werent lol


and i'm pretty sure i got more dps out of the brutix than i do the cane. with 7 T2 blasters, and a fight of T2 hammers. the cane might get a better bonus, but it can only hold 30m3 of drones, 3 t2 hammers at the most.

I'm pretty sure we all know that Tanya Powers won't be satisfied with Gallente until they're the best at everything.

-Liang

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Gallente: Still fail for PvE. Still fail for PvP.


Blowhards like Liang can sit here and talk about how awesome gallente ships are, but numbers don't lie.

The funniest thing is that for all of the "Caldari are only for pvp" they have ~20x the number of kills than gallente on the list. ****, they have more kills than minmatar.

Bad players afraid of core mechanics changes have basically reduced Amarr and gallente to niche races. There are fundamental changes that need to be made so that there is some freakin' variety in pvp.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Gallente: Still fail for PvE. Still fail for PvP.


Blowhards like Liang can sit here and talk about how awesome gallente ships are, but numbers don't lie.

The funniest thing is that for all of the "Caldari are only for pvp" they have ~20x the number of kills than gallente on the list. ****, they have more kills than minmatar.

Bad players afraid of core mechanics changes have basically reduced Amarr and gallente to niche races. There are fundamental changes that need to be made so that there is some freakin' variety in pvp.

well the way you use the numbers is fallacy.

Unless the next ~20 ships are gallente, and have more than 15k kills each, the point stands.


If "facts" disagree with your position, it is because you are wrong. Stop acting like a dumb Republican.

Actually those statistics are misleading. Suppose you have a 10v10, where everyone is in Drakes, and everyone but 1 guy dies (Go go hero Drake!). Assuming that everyone knows how to follow primary (hahahahahaha):
- Drake 1: 10 drakes on it
- Drake 2: 10 drakes on it
- Drake 3: 9 drakes
- Drake 4: 9 drakes
...

So in the end we see 110 Drakes on your list for only 20 combatants. Obviously this is unreasonable.

-Liang

Except this applies to all ship types. It isn't just that "drakes" or "Bob doles" show up multiple times, all ships do.

Indeed since missiles have a delay and guns don't you could argue that drakes are probably underrepresented, since someone who fired may not have ended up in the KM.

Edit: high alpha ships would also have a greater tendency to show, and low alpha, fast firing ships are greater tendency.

You're doing an excellent job of proving me right.
Please continue!

It doesn't apply equally to all ship types though - since some ship types are good at blob engagements and others aren't. Ships that engage in blob warfare are:
A) going to legitimately get more kills
B) going to be even more over represented by nature of the multiplicative effect outlined above.

Frankly, I think the problem is that you want Gallente to be the best small gang as well as the best blob warfare ships. Just not gonna happen, and thats ok.

-Liang

You really are a dumb republican aren't you?

-Liang

Frankly, I think the problem is that you are just terrified of changes that don't benefit you personally.

I realize that your Corp spends apparently half its time camping ammake, so you probably don't have "a clue" about 0.0 you think that big battles are happening 24/7. They aren't. The multiplicative effect you talk about doesn't happen nearly as much as you would think.

Crying about good in fleet and small gang for one race is pretty damn hilarious. Considering Minmatar and Caldari.

Drakes are prime for fleets, and the ECM boats for small gangs. Tempests for Fleets and the entire frigate/cruiser line and 2 of 3 BCs for small gangs. Abbadons for fleet, Zealots for small gangs.

Why do you think Gallente should be any different?

Yeah, so you're down to semantics and insults.

I don't fly gallente, I fly Minmatar. But I'm sick of fighting the same damn fleet comps.

My point was that you wouldn't benefit from pro-"fleet" pvp fixes for gallente, since you're such a HARDKOOORE SMALL GANG ELITE PvPer, but apparently that went right over your head.

Also blasters != gallente

Holy ****, one is a ship type one is a weapon type. I hope (ITALICS!!!!) I don't need to explain the difference to you...

I'm sorry, I was simply returning the insult you offered to the rest of us: that we're simply "dumb republicans". If you feel that's over the top for insulting, maybe you should look a little closer to home eh? Also, if you're so sick of fighting the same "damn fleet comps" maybe you should consider flying in a different meta? Out here in low sec its a toss up for what you're gonna face on any given day. :)



The simple fact of the matter is that changing Gallente such that they're good at fleets would make them the obvious choice for all PVP. Seriously, they're that dominant at small gang PVP these days.



That's not as true as you'd really think. In a great many ways, the game has been designed around Gallente = Blasters+Drones and Caldari = Missiles+Rails.

-Liang

Then why are you fitting blasters on a caldari ship? Could there be fundamental difference between Caldari and Gallente ships that make them better at using blasters? If so isn't it dumb that gallente get out classed in their own racial weapon type?

So, gallente are COMPLETELY DOMINANT in small gang pvp, but you run into a constant mix in Low Sec.

Pro-tip when bullshitting: Make sure you're consistent.

Then why are you fitting blasters on a caldari ship? Could there be fundamental difference between Caldari and Gallente ships that make them better at using blasters? If so isn't it dumb that gallente get out classed in their own racial weapon type?

Two reasons: inertia (people like you keep thinking they suck) and having not trained them up.

Don't oversimplify, now. Gallente are hard-pressed to get a decent sniping setup, or to tank obnoxious amounts of damage, and nano-setups are hard to pull off on Gallente ships.

Also neither the Incursus nor the Tristan really replace the Rifter.

As to the Tristan and Incursus replacing the Rifter... I present to you much frigate pwnage (including Tristans): http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang

Slicers who dive <4km range and still use scorh... You can't be serious. Dual LADAR Jam on Merlin... Did he know what was the enemy or did he expect Rifter/Dramiel enemies only?

I'm pretty sure we all know that Tanya Powers won't be satisfied with Gallente until they're the best at everything.

-Liang

Gallente + Rails are a good choice once you get over 150km. The fact that sniping at that range is a problem has more to do with on grid probing then with Gallente or Rails. "Long Range" at 100km means alhpa is popular.

Edit: I used to hate sniper fleets in my Arty Tempest when shots were being exchanged at 200km.

Well honestly, would you choose a sniper rails Megathron for +150km or Tornado that can make triple Megathron alpha strike at 242km, half sign radius and 1600m/s cap stable when mega caps out just by shooting (best dps conf) ?

I still have one sniper rails Mega and prepared to pinch butts at 240km with no tracking issues, but it's more about make those run off the gate than really kill one of them unless I'm very very lucky guy. At same range with alpha Tornado the Sabre goes pouf in one single shot, Cynabal 3 shots at worst (he will warp out first) and with +25% tracking on shortest range ammo 1 shot at the dram at 100km is either he pop either I gtfo, all I can tell you is that ranis at this range go pouf with 0 tracking issues.

Its just a matter of scale.

Gallente are great when you can sit in station and wait for your targets to come to you scouted three jumps out. They are pretty crappy when you can't choose the ship to counter the opposing fleet. Gallente have to many counters. Gallente can work in "blob" warfare, but the load on your probers is FAR FAR above a normal tengu/hellcat/mael fleet. They don't have the tank of the amarr the mobility of the tengu or the alpha of the maels.

Not to mention plated up Megas are ******* slow and don't hold a candle to Abbaddons outside 20km

So its a matter of application.

...so that is fine Gallente aren't that hot a null fleet warfare

Lowsec is a different environment, completely different environment, particularly around Amamake. Your mileage may vary if you live there, I've been back and forth across that system in my experience you roll in there with equal numbers, you won't see a tic unless you are fighting someone else than its a Mach or Tempest at 200km.

Otherwise you get a bait ship on the gate and swarmed by superior numbers........but that's not blobbing amirite.

most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".

*citation needed

http://twitter.com/ccp_diagoras

-Liang

Kills by sec group, 2011, no pods/rookies etc, FIXED: High 423447, Low 705378, Null 1135046, WH 132089. Not ignoring you

****, I had to scroll down ages to find it.



(Null)1135046 > 705378(Low).

(Yes, it's hard to spot, but this first number has seven digits.)

He's posted several variations on the same theme, with roughly the same percentages. It basically boils down to low sec being the bloodiest per capita place in the game by a very significant margin.

-Liang

Note that's not what I actually said: I said that 0.0 didn't have the majority of kills in the game - and it doesn't. And just to be clear 1135046 / 2,395,960 = ~47%. Clearly 53% (most) of the kills happened elsewhere.

There's no indicator that lowsec is a candyland, but I haven't come across an entry that suggests what you said initially. Subjective quality of kills not withstanding. And honestly dragging through more of that page makes me want to punch kittens and puppy dogs. I hate twitter.

most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".

Fair enough.

But it is fair to say that, as a subset of the total kills, nullsec holds the most. Indeed it has more kills than any other two groups combined save lowsec and highsec, which I don't think share much relationship to one another aside from some FW overflow. Nullsec, lowsec, and wspace, however, might be said to have some fairly significant undocumented overlap.

vOv numbers

Here's what I said initially:


By the numbers: 423447 + 705378 + 1135046 + 132089 = 2,395,960
0.0 kill pct = 1135046 / 2,395,960 = 0.47373328436200938246047513314079
The rest of eve = 423447 + 705378 + 132089 = 1,260,914
The rest of eve kill pct = 1,260,914 / 2,395,960 = 0.52626671563799061753952486685921

From this we can conclude:
- Only 47% of the "real kills" happen in Eve. This is less than the required ~50.01% to be most.
- 52.6% of the "real kills" in Eve happen outside of low sec. This is more than the required ~50.01% to be most.

So no, I said exactly what I meant. You just weren't listening.

-Liang

Ed: Also, there is an indicator that low sec is The Promised Land of PVP - 30% of the real kills in the game happening by ~8% of the player base? Hellll yeah.

I think most of the kills in highsec aren't what you would consider "real kills," either. Of course I could be mistaken. I don't know if we're trying to account for. What is the topic again?

Now to stear the conversation back on track: Gallente is without question in almost perfect meta outside of null sec. Thus, Gallente is perfectly fine where most of the PVP happens.

I probably wouldn't consider most of the kills made in null sec to be real kills either. Yay for squeezing 130 people onto a Loki kill and killing the same scout alt in a kestrel 250 times in a day.

Also, there is an indicator that low sec is The Promised Land of PVP - 30% of the real kills in the game happening by ~8% of the player base? Hellll yeah.

I could be an ass and ask how much of that is camping of the Ossogur gate, but I... guess I'm an ass and am asking how much of that is camping of the Ossogur gate. How much of that is camping of the Ossogur gate?

I could be an ass and ask how much of that is camping of the Ossogur gate, but I... guess I'm an ass and am asking how much of that is camping of the Ossogur gate. How much of that is camping of the Ossogur gate?

Its just a matter of scale.

Gallente are great when you can sit in station and wait for your targets to come to you scouted three jumps out. They are pretty crappy when you can't choose the ship to counter the opposing fleet. Gallente have to many counters. Gallente can work in "blob" warfare, but the load on your probers is FAR FAR above a normal tengu/hellcat/mael fleet. They don't have the tank of the amarr the mobility of the tengu or the alpha of the maels.

Not to mention plated up Megas are ******* slow and don't hold a candle to Abbaddons outside 20km

So its a matter of application.

...so that is fine Gallente aren't that hot a null fleet warfare.

Lowsec is a different environment, completely different environment, particularly around Amamake. Your mileage may vary if you live there, I've been back and forth across that system in my experience you roll in there with equal numbers, you won't see a tic unless you are fighting someone else than its a Mach or Tempest at 200km.

Otherwise you get a bait ship on the gate and swarmed by superior numbers........but that's not blobbing amirite.

Please don't, very good post as it is.

All changes that would emphasize actual playing (as in being logged in and doing stuff) and inhabiting the systems would be good.

He should have said: "Gallente is perfectly fine where the most solo/small pvp happens" since he said outside null sec a line before.

That would be a change to SOV mechanics, not the ships themselves.

As it stands everyone tends to group all of their crap in localized staging systems, there you find the most active markets and everyone's hangars.The rest of the space is essentially carebearland and securing travel routeswhich is why you see large areas unclaimed in the middle of most alliances' space.

Do you need it all? Nope, not even close, BUT if gives you a buffer to stop everyone and their brother from baiting you out because the systems you DO need are within one titan jump of your neighbors.

He should have said: "Gallente is perfectly fine where the most solo/small pvp happens" since he said outside null sec a line before.

How does one addrress the blob w/o nerfing something so that it is useless for everything? You would have to introduce force mulitipliers such as area of effect ECM, just plain more area of effect weapons, or fleet formations. Or did you have something else in mind?

No, I said exactly what I meant. And what the numbers support. So sorry that it doesn't support your preconceived bias about how "~elite PVP~ lowsuck gankbears" are useless and Noble Mighty 0.0 Empires are the rightful rulers and dictators of all things in Eve including ship balance.

Also, I already covered why those numbers are bullshit. In detail, with examples.

-Liang

Well never said that, and before being in a Noble, mighty 0.0 empire, i pretty much soloed through lowsec and not only at High-end Amamake, but i think you mean that's where "most of the PVP happens" right?

I do have to say that though I have never flown an Omen, and know nothing about them, there is a significant lack of them in FW compared to all of the other T1 combat cruisers. Is it really that terrible? Whats its issue?

EDIT: Im tired and have nothing useful or constructive to say. I dont know why I hit the post button.

Its fittings are horrible. It can't fit any reasonable form of tank alongside a rack of medium guns while maintaining any semblance of damage. It actually suffers from "inferior tier syndrome" -- same thing the Caracal, Stabber, Bellicose, and (to a much lesser degree) the Arbitrator, Celestis, and Vexor. The inherent tiering system for cruisers, which leads to a slight difference in price offering an enormous difference in effectiveness, is rendering a ton of cruisers practically useless if you are going for maximum efficiency. The Omens that you do see are either people who don't know better, or people with niche fits, like nano-Omen.


Edit:



Didn't want that post anyway?

So, it cant fit a 800 or 1600mm plate + the smallest medium guns with an ACR rig? I have to use fitting ACR rigs on both the Thorax and Vexor to fit plates + medium electrons.

Where is all this stuff about Gallente being good for small gang coming from? The day I see a gang of 25-30 gallente ships win a fight with a similarly sized opponent is yet to come, though I think rails are more or less ok these days, provided you have a way to counteract logi. Close range PVP, which is what Gallente are for, is still deader than dead, and most people are either blind to it or don't care because they can fly kitey set ups already.

The fact is that there is something fundamentally wrong with some of the slowest ships having the shortest range guns. What person when asked to design a game would choose to design a race like that? It should be obvious to everyone that this doesn't work, and yet we still have certain players actually resisting a fix on the ships.

I just don't get it.

No, I meant where most of the PVP doesn't happen. There's only one meta where Gallente has any problem at all - massive fleets.

-Liang

....It actually suffers from "inferior tier syndrome" -- same thing the Caracal, Stabber, Bellicose, and (to a much lesser degree) the Arbitrator, Celestis, and Vexor....

Gallente are the second fastest race, and their short-range weapons are just barely shorter ranged than ACs, but massively more powerful. I don't understand how there are still pilots who think it would be somehow balanced to have the fastest ships fitting the biggest guns or the longest range guns.

Most agree that Gallente still lacks large fleet BCs and BSs, but is this because of the ships & weapon systems, or how much meta affects the birth of new fleet doctrines? Is it even needed to have Gal ships in large fleets as the backbone?

Gallente are the second fastest until you consider the fact that you have to armor tank them to get any sort of decent tank on them. Add in the rigs and the plates and they become the second slowest, if not the slowest ships around, depending on which ship class we're talking about.

Then everyone says shield tank it except you're taking something with either paper EHP or virtually no tackle into the range of every other hostile ship out there.

You have no web, so even with tracking enhancers, you're doing about as much dps as an armor tanked ship with a web, but with less survivability.

And if you try and use a nano Gallente ship like any other race's nano setups, it will fail because it simply cannot fit as much tank and its applied dps is horrible because of the gun range on blasters.

The Talos is the exception to the rule, and it isn't even that great because of the tracking issues with large guns. You can only mitigate them so much, especially when you have to fight anything smaller than a BC. The only reason its popular is because of the base range of large blasters and the limitations that you have to fight within point range, most of the time.

I think it's mainly because,

1. Sentries are still bad in fleets {right?}, and no one will train them.
2. No one trained up Rails for the longest time, so a lot of them are probably just too lazy to train them now when they could be training something else, etc.
3. The fact that for something like a Myrmidon to work in a Drake / Cane fleet, you would need both Rails and Sentries {which you would only get three of}. Why train for those two weapon systems when a Drake needs only HMs?
4. They hear "Gallente R suckz" from their fail leaders all the time.

Where is all this stuff about Gallente being good for small gang coming from? The day I see a gang of 25-30 gallente ships win a fight with a similarly sized opponent is yet to come, though I think rails are more or less ok these days, provided you have a way to counteract logi.

Close range PVP, which is what Gallente are for, is still deader than dead, and most people are either blind to it or don't care because they can fly kitey set ups already.

The fact is that there is something fundamentally wrong with some of the slowest ships having the shortest range guns.

I just don't get it.

remove speed penalty for armor REP rigs, fix blaster tracking (still needs a small buff), maybe a fitting tweak on rails, up the bonus on damp boats, etc.

There is only one pvp meta that matters for 0.0 - massive fleets.

See the problem?

It is funny to see the shifting goal posts you have laid out. First it was people just wanted Gallente to be overpowered by having good fleet and small gang ships, like all the other races. Then it was that gallente are so overpowered in small gangs, except most people still fly minmatar for those. Now it is that "well, large fleets don't really count as pvp".

Stop being a publord, admit you made a mistake and move on.

No, its actually quite alive to the rest of Eve. Hell, its even alive in 0.0 though you refuse to admit it.

I'm sorry, but Gallente is not slow - certainly not since they got boosted. Its one thing to complain about facts (like Blasters being the shortest range weapon platform), its quite another to just make **** up to complain about.

O rly? When was the last time you saw a close range gang of 20? 15? Hell, even 10 guys. People who fly organized gangs of any size don't fly close range because Gallente ships are not fast enough to actually apply dps

That's not shifting goalposts because the second statement in no way contradicts the first. I'd argue its more of me saying the same thing in a dozen different ways so that nullbrains might figure out that they're being dinosaurs.

I think you might be arguing that the reason that only massive fleets matter in 0.0 is because they are the primary determiner of Sov - and to a point you're right. However, you're only right to a point. The problem with your thinking is as follows:
- Gallente works fine in small gang PVP - which is where the majority of the PVP in the game happens. Even in 0.0, the majority of the PVP is smaller gang PVP. Thus, Gallente actually work fine in the OVERWHELMING majority of the PVP situations in the game.
- NPC 0.0 doesn't have to worry about your lousy sov.
- 0.0 goes months (sometimes years it seems) without major brouhahas. Your "massive fleets" barely even exist then.

However, addressing the fact that Gallente (really, blasters) don't work so well in massive fleets: Yes, its true. And really it makes sense to have a place where they are both strong and another where they are weak. It gives everyone somewhere to fly and win. In other words: Hyperions and Megathrons don't really do the same kinds of things that Abaddons and Rokhs do. And thats ok - because that door swings both ways.

-Liang

"Small gang PvP" is the biggest load of bullshit in the history of MMOs.

First off, where are you getting this that "small gang pvp" is the majority? You're pulling that straight from your ass and have nothing to back it up.

How many of those "small gang" fights involve two sides fighting? I've done more than my share of "SMALL HARDKKKORE GANG ELITE PVP". Most of the time it was a 5v1 gang bang popping someone slow on docking, or flying with out a scout. The number of real honest to god small gang FIGHTS probably wasn't even 1 in 20.

Even scrolling through the last 10 or so kills on your KB they where all 2v1 odds or higher, frequently in the 4v1 range. Yeah, you can fly goddamn near anything when you out number the guys 4v1 and win.

That is why "Large Fleet" stuff matters, because all the lowsec scrub posturing aside, fleets are the core of Eve. Eve doesn't make news sites because you 10v1 gang banged a nubblet in a Kestral, or had a "GF GF GF GF" with another wanna-be group.

Average ~5:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10576855&kll_times=2011-09-04%2015:43:00,2011-09-04%2017:24:00

Average ~4:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10574448&kll_times=2011-09-04%2008:04:00,2011-09-04%2009:58:00

Average 3:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10566634&kll_times=2011-09-03%2011:38:00,2011-09-03%2012:46:00

Average 5:1
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_battle&kll_id=10562028&kll_times=2011-09-02%2019:42:00,2011-09-02%2021:15:00

Why is it fine for Gallente not to scale, but it is OK that everyone else does?

The core of the issue is that you think Gallente should be inferior. All other races have viable ships for all kinds of engagements. Gallente does not. You think that this is ok. Why should Gallente be inferior?

Lets make Minmatar ships scale "DIFFERENTLY", their HP and damage is reduced by 90% if there are less than 5 other ships around.

Sound good? If not, why?

You can say "different" all you want, but it is nothing but a pathetic and blatant attempt to reframe the argument now that your ignorance and bias is exposed.

Massive fights aren't common?


For real?

We've been pulling 400 ship fleet fight usually two a day for months. So have XIX, and Goons, ect ect.

I dont know what you think is going on out here.....but AAA didn't kill 10,000 ships camping the ******* Kebers gate in HED-GP last month.

Good for you. Small gang PVP is still more common - even in 0.0.

-Liang

No, they scale differently. Nothing else really scales down as well as Gallente does.

-Liang

True and gallente suck at it. To slow to deal with bubbles....and not enough range to fire out of them.

I have equal gallente and mstar skills.....I left my gallente ships in empire because there is no call to use them.

Right, so lets nerf the way some other things scale UP!

I mean if it is ok that gallente sucks in fleet, lets nerf the **** out of some stuff so it can't scale down.


All ships now have auto defenders! They will detonate the first 10 missles that would hit a ship every second!

Great idea, m i rite?

CALDARI JUST SCALE DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!!

Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente...

-Liang

Almost as funny as someone from a corp where 90% of their latest "battles" have been on Ammake gates posting about pvp.

Huh, what corp is that? ;-)

-Liang

Yes, ships get slow when you insist on quad plating and triple trimarking them. Stop that and you'll stop feeling like Gallente is slow. Although I do find it funny that you argue so hard that Gallente sucks against people that fly Gallente when you plainly don't actually fly Gallente...

-Liang

This is getting so thick i'm no longer sure how we could possibly get through to you.

You repeat an oppinion with blank statements over and over, though you never provide any tangible examples, discuss how or why. Stating blank "short range ships need speed", "close range is what Gallente is for" or "propmods make ships go faster" does not discuss any percieved issues with Gallente.

Clearly, examples (killboards, movies), comparisons (listing potential ship-speeds) or reasoning back and forth will not bite - so how can we help you?

It's pretty funny reading your statements here when over in the political threads on FHC you have alliances arguing about who made the Deimos rush concept first (in recent eras) , find those public threads i refer to and "your day" will have come. You can also click my name here for older posts i've made on the topic of rush-speed to find links to old movies that detail the concept for you. You can also continue to be defiant and pull some more slogans out, of course, which is nothing less than what i expect at this point.

On a related note, with the Gallente- and AF-buffs it's going to be interesting to see if someone pulls off a Gallente-version of the old "Drams and dp Scimis" soon.

gallante rocks in wh, eve aint just about 0.0, htfu

The corp you just ditched:
http://heretics.eve-kill.net/?a=battles

(PS you can check corp history from the forums now)

Indeed, if I lived in a wormhole that would be one thing.

Many don't. In null and to lowsec Gallente just aren't that hot. So its not a matter of HTFU, its a matter of the best tool for the job. Gallente work for some few applications. Otherwise its needlessly putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Lol hi sec PvP.....I love hiding behind neutral reps.

Lol null sec PvP.....I love no brain F1 blob "warfare".

Confirmed I only fly in blobs, and refuse to undock in numbers that aren't triple digit. Never "done" Amamake, or Dal, or OMS, or Otou, Taff either.

How quick you are to dismiss high sec PVP while you rush to defend your own.

-Liang

That is because hi sec PVP is a ******* joke. EVERY hi-sec crew operates the same. Park bricked proteus and vindi's on some undock and when they actually DO agress here comes the flight of neutral logi that never leave the docking ring. It annoyed the **** out of me when I was DOING the logi, and it annoyed the **** out me when I was the target, because its just silly really.

It would take a VERY cursory glance at my killboard before you noticed that I primary roam in small gangs, usually under 30 at that VERY rarely do I fly in blob fleets as DPS.

Even then my primary reason for leaving empire what it was pointless. Since for all of their bluster,most piwats sit in station and call you a blobber when you have close to even numbers and then hit you with 3-4 to 1 numbers when they have the opportunity....

....oh wait, this sounds familiar

At least the Heritic guys were always pretty chill, they were fun to smack at, but for the most part I only ever saw them snipe points 200km off the belts and gate.

Touched a nerve did I

P.S. the 130 on a loki was a whelp, something like 200 canes against a same sized baddon fleet witih caps and supers on the field. That was fun.

Look back a bit further we go something like 75 rifters on cynabal.

...and 30 is a HUGE fleet?

You need to poke your nose out every so often, because I was flying in fleets that size before I could undock a BC.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8595883

Never fought in hi-sec either......I still have that very Brutix, first BC hull I ever bought.

No, you didn't touch a nerve really. I'm just pointing out how utterly ******* stupid your own arguments sound. As to 30 being a huge fleet: its not huge but it damn sure isn't "small gangs".

30 is not a small gang to most of Eve.

Also: if you've never fought in high sec... how do you know its PVP is a joke? How did the neutral RR annoy you when you were doing it... and when you were its victim? Oh, oh.. the forums told you so!

-Liang

This comes from the prebuff times, but nothing has really changed in the analysis apart from the tracking boost and a small speed boost, and it only changes the base numbers to +50m/s with an MWD on and no armor rigs.
/.../
You have to get within web range to be able to apply dps. Even with the null buff you're spitting at ranges outside of 10km unless you're using a bonused ship with neutrons, and there are issues with that fit that can be discussed later.
/.../
Lets take a sample engagement. Assuming everyone is shield fit, lets take 3x Cyclones vs. 3x Brutixes.
/.../
Lets change it up and add an overdrive to that Brutix fit.
/.../
The same comparison holds up in a Thorax vs. Rupture or Vexor vs. Rupture fight. And god help you if you fitted armor. This is a 3v3 fight.
/.../
Yes you can use other ships to help you get in range, but no other type of ship has to do that. Projectile, missile, and laser boats can all apply their dps within point range.