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For gods sake can we sort out Falcons and ECM

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Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:37:00 - [151] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Etho Demerzel You had 3 geddons against a Domi and a Typhoon. Even if each had a point in one of the geddons, that still leaves one geddon free to warp to the zealot (150 km away in the top of the falcon) and release the drones. As soon as you do that the Falco is history. The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... I think I was unclear. We had many fights with Falcons. They usually involved one good tanking ship at the undocking port, either a Typhoon or a Domi. Yes, we lost to only on damage-dealing battleship, not two, despite some ECCM. In most cases, the Falcon's tend to be within the 150km warp range to avoid being at a warpable point. Even if so, they will just warp to another point and continue the jamming. You can always have a cloaked ship outside the station at a near SS. And as I told you a pilgrim would be just nasty. You will warp onm the top of him and have good chances of sucking his cap and scrambling him before he can ECM you or warp, especially if you are using an ECCM module. Even if he manages to warp out he will waste cycles and your battleships will be free to fight, so no problem. This is only one counter. As a guy told you above, you could make one dedicated sniper Apocalypse imune to ECM (a couple actives should do the trick) and insta pop the Falcon... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Ogul	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:37:00 - [152] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Oh so youll split your group in half? Leave 2 tackled ships behind and warp 2-3 to the falcon? Sorry but youre clueless. It doesnt work. Before you pull that off the falcon will warp off or cloak. Or even worse he'll warp off right before those 2-3 ships come out of warp and your gang is split in two. The 2 ships left behind get ganked while your inty now flies to the other direction for another warp in point to your friends that are dying. Before you get there they are dead and youre outnumbered and falcon comes back at 150km and does the same again. It does not work and youre just theory-crafting and its no better then the people living in eft and on sisi that barely know what pvp is on tranq. Please long on tranquility before you present solutions like this. Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:41:00 - [153] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:40:55 Originally by: Ogul Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... He wasnt suggesting it. He was presenting it as a solution, wich it is not. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Galen Salkor	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:43:00 - [154] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Etho Demerzel You had 3 geddons against a Domi and a Typhoon. Even if each had a point in one of the geddons, that still leaves one geddon free to warp to the zealot (150 km away in the top of the falcon) and release the drones. As soon as you do that the Falco is history. The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... I think I was unclear. We had many fights with Falcons. They usually involved one good tanking ship at the undocking port, either a Typhoon or a Domi. Yes, we lost to only on damage-dealing battleship, not two, despite some ECCM. In most cases, the Falcon's tend to be within the 150km warp range to avoid being at a warpable point. Even if so, they will just warp to another point and continue the jamming. You can always have a cloaked ship outside the station at a near SS. And as I told you a pilgrim would be just nasty. You will warp onm the top of him and have good chances of sucking his cap and scrambling him before he can ECM you or warp, especially if you are using an ECCM module. Even if he manages to warp out he will waste cycles and your battleships will be free to fight, so no problem. This is only one counter. As a guy told you above, you could make one dedicated sniper Apocalypse imune to ECM (a couple actives should do the trick) and insta pop the Falcon... He is right. Chances are it only has to be done once or twice then they will have to change to using another type of recon that won't have to worry about ECCM like a pilgrim or curse which would hurt those geddons too.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:43:00 - [155] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:40:55 Originally by: Ogul Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... He wasnt suggesting it. He was presenting it as a solution, wich it is not. Whines are the last resource of the incompetent. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:44:00 - [156] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:44:46 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:44:33 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:40:55 Originally by: Ogul Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... He wasnt suggesting it. He was presenting it as a solution, wich it is not. Whines are the last resource of the incompetent. I wonder who the incompetent people are. The falcon fanbois or the people trying to have some small scale fun? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Steakkbone	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:57:00 - [157] The fact that this thread is over 6 pages now increases the odds that ECM will be nerfed.
Merdaneth	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:59:00 - [158] Originally by: Etho Demerzel You can always have a cloaked ship outside the station at a near SS. And as I told you a pilgrim would be just nasty. You will warp onm the top of him and have good chances of sucking his cap and scrambling him before he can ECM you or warp, especially if you are using an ECCM module. Even if he manages to warp out he will waste cycles and your battleships will be free to fight, so no problem. This is only one counter. As a guy told you above, you could make one dedicated sniper Apocalypse imune to ECM (a couple actives should do the trick) and insta pop the Falcon... Sure, there are many counters. It is just that the counters require the presence of a lot of specific ships and pilots and setups, who will not always be available, and even if they do, they will be less than useful in other situations. If there are two hostiles in local, with one Typhoon or Domi sitting at the undock port, do you immediately have to roll out your anti-Falcon squad each time, consisting of a lot of different pilots with specifically setup ships? Do you need to choose not to fight if you don't have them available for fear of the Falcon being there? What if it is just a Thorax and a Taranis visible? Do you have to go out in ECCM'ed sniper battleships and Pilgrims on the off chance that there is one Falcon hiding 150km out? If you go out with a fleet, do you need all these ships with you, with their specific fit and tactics on the off chance there is a Falcon out there? I guess the answer is yes. And our most of our battleships and battlecruisers now fly with 2x ECCM. That is a lot of midslots wasted on a fleet, but the effect of a single Falcon on an otherwise reasonably even fight is too just great to risk flying without the ECCM. Even then, the Falcon can still disable any tacklers (difficult to tackle with Amarr battleships/battlecruisers loaded up with ECCM) and have their friends warp off. We have the good fortune that some of our usual enemies don't constantly bring in these ships, for they know they will get little fighting going if they continue to do so. Hence, we are protected from the inbalancing aspects of these ships by the generosity of our enemies. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:01:00 - [159] Sorry small-scale is where you should noticed this ship isn't op'd. Your just failing hard to notice tools and counters to this ship. Most people in "small-scale" like you say won't run a ECM dedicated ship just because your losing a pretty healthy portion of DPS by flying a recon. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:24:00 - [160] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/03/2008 23:24:43 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I wonder who the incompetent people are. The falcon fanbois or the people trying to have some small scale fun? I have a suggestion: look at the mirror :) The incompetent are those that want to dumbify the game because they can't think outside the box to deal adequately with anything that is not "me shoot you with my big gun". Originally by: Merdaneth Sure, there are many counters. It is just that the counters require the presence of a lot of specific ships and pilots and setups, who will not always be available, and even if they do, they will be less than useful in other situations. If there are two hostiles in local, with one Typhoon or Domi sitting at the undock port, do you immediately have to roll out your anti-Falcon squad each time, consisting of a lot of different pilots with specifically setup ships? Do you need to choose not to fight if you don't have them available for fear of the Falcon being there? What if it is just a Thorax and a Taranis visible? Do you have to go out in ECCM'ed sniper battleships and Pilgrims on the off chance that there is one Falcon hiding 150km out? If you go out with a fleet, do you need all these ships with you, with their specific fit and tactics on the off chance there is a Falcon out there? I guess the answer is yes. And our most of our battleships and battlecruisers now fly with 2x ECCM. That is a lot of midslots wasted on a fleet, but the effect of a single Falcon on an otherwise reasonably even fight is too just great to risk flying without the ECCM. Even then, the Falcon can still disable any tacklers (difficult to tackle with Amarr battleships/battlecruisers loaded up with ECCM) and have their friends warp off. We have the good fortune that some of our usual enemies don't constantly bring in these ships, for they know they will get little fighting going if they continue to do so. Hence, we are protected from the inbalancing aspects of these ships by the generosity of our enemies. In your example, just keep ONE sniper Apocalypse fitted with doule ECCM in your station. Falcon spotted, undock and kill it or make it run. Problem solved. Falcon not spotted, undock a short range geddon instead. One ship completely neutralizes the Falcon... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:35:00 - [161] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 23:35:48 Originally by: Etho Demerzel I have a suggestion: look at the mirror :) The incompetent are those that want to dumbify the game because they can't think outside the box to deal adequately with anything that is not "me shoot you with my big gun". Yeah because jamming and getting jammed adds alot to the game. Especially when you cant even see that ship on the scanner. You know whats funny? This thread is already 6 pages long. You know why? Because there is a problem with the falcon. If I would go make a thread saying "Arazu is overpowered, nerf it!", the thread would die after 5-6 replies. Youre so afraid that youre going to lose your fotm that you and your fanboi pals are panicing all over the place and trying to flame out people that are trying to come up with a solution to this problem. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:43:00 - [162] If you want to jam like a falcon you should be in a rook. Falcon needs to have its jam strength reduced from 20% to 15%.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:46:00 - [163] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 23:35:48 Originally by: Etho Demerzel I have a suggestion: look at the mirror :) The incompetent are those that want to dumbify the game because they can't think outside the box to deal adequately with anything that is not "me shoot you with my big gun". Yeah because jamming and getting jammed adds alot to the game. Especially when you cant even see that ship on the scanner. You know whats funny? This thread is already 6 pages long. You know why? Because there is a problem with the falcon. If I would go make a thread saying "Arazu is overpowered, nerf it!", the thread would die after 5-6 replies. Youre so afraid that youre going to lose your fotm that you and your fanboi pals are panicing all over the place and trying to flame out people that are trying to come up with a solution to this problem. I see only you and at most 2-3 Amarr people here complaining about it. Everybody else is telling you to stfu. The fact that this thread has 6 pages, means only the BS you are tallking is so outrageous that even people like me, who almost never post, are willing to use their time to say how obnoxious and wrong you are. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:51:00 - [164] Originally by: Etho Demerzel I see only you and at most 2-3 Amarr people here complaining about it. Everybody else is telling you to stfu. The fact that this thread has 6 pages, means only the BS you are tallking is so outrageous that even people like me, who almost never post, are willing to use their time to say how obnoxious and wrong you are. That was exactly my point. If our posts were obnoxious people wouldnt even answer them. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:52:00 - [165] Originally by: Altai Saker If you want to jam like a falcon you should be in a rook. Falcon needs to have its jam strength reduced from 20% to 15%. This would be a start. Also add a bit of ECCM boost. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:56:00 - [166] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer That was exactly my point. If our posts were obnoxious people wouldnt even answer them. That's not true and you know it. People answer JoJo threads (your alt?) and Shinsushi threads. Stop posting crap. The falcon and all ECM is fine. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:57:00 - [167] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This would be a start. Also add a bit of ECCM boost. Nerf TD's while you're at it. Even on bonused ships, they're far too powerful. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Tibilo Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2008.03.25 00:03:00 - [168] I believe the recon ship role is for support in this the falcon is an excellent choice. As to whether its overpowered or not depends on the size of engagement. in a fight between roughly equivalent gangs, being able to jam 2 or 3 ships probably means you win but the ecm ship will be primary unless of course it is well out of range. In fleet fights the falcon is far too vulnerable to be useful, so why does it need to be able to jam at those ranges. Also when choosing a recon for a gang the minmater and ammar recons can be useful, webbing a ship out of range allowing torps to hit for full damage or emptying cap making it easier to take down or unable to deal damage etc, while reducing turret ships dps. However they both need to be at ranges where they can be hurt while a falcon can sit well out of range of damage. Also why take a gallente recon, using all of there fitted damps they can probably only reduce a ships targeting range to within scramble range having next to no effect when the fighting is within 20k anyway. If the fighting is outside of scramble range your probably better off with a caldari recon. Alternatively you could have a falcon to jam and a arazu to reduce locking time but why not just take 2 falcon as you can lock down more ships. As for scrambling an interceptor does it better although admittedly not at the same range but then it doesn't need to. Another thing about the gallente recons, gallente pvp is mostly about getting in close with high dps, so their recons can keep ships from warping and unable to lock untill the gallente ships are in range where they have the advantage with the higher dps. However the arazu/lachesis cant do this all that effectively and why not keep the enemy unable to lock at all by using ecm. Really i think the caldari recons shouldn't be able to jam at such extreme ranges making it more possible to counter and the gallente recons should be able to reduce both target range and lock time effectively where as at the moment they cant do either well enough to choose one over another ship
LoKesh InQuest Ascension	Posted - 2008.03.25 00:31:00 - [169] As a master of ECM... There is no such thing as a "perma-jam" even with multiple jammers on a target you still fail. Gallente E-war ships may have just gotten hit by a nerf, but if one damps you and keeps range you are screwed... Oh, and they can damp you and reach out 40 km with a point. We suffer from lack of DPS... Falcon? Please.. the dps is 50. A Rook is nice, but is fragile and a scorp is a nice boat, but needs friends.... xFoundation, xVC, xRISE
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.25 01:53:00 - [170] The dps argument is not an argument. All of the recons except the curse suck hugely by themselves. None of them do good damage, not even the curse. The rook is completely obsoleted by the falcon. They are exactly the same ship except the falcon can cloak... Therefore the falcon needs a drawback, end of story really. No other cloaking recon has completely replaced its counterpart. Solution: Go back to old 15% falcon.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 01:56:00 - [171] No, the Rook does not obsolete the Falcon Just because you don't know how and when to use it does not make it a bad ship. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 02:20:00 - [172] I guess the fundamental problem here is what exactly IS overpowered? By itself, as many have pointed out already, the Falcon isn't going to kill anything unless you count REALLY wierd scenarios (E.G. you attack a target with full knowledge of the race, fit the minimum jamming equipment along the requisite tackling gear and whatever tank you can wedge in, and then hope your woeful DPS actually manages to breach their tank). From a solo standpoing the Falcon clearly ISN'T overpowered. If you compare it to the other recons, a class of ships occupied by several of the more dissapointing entries it MAY be overpowered. While a long ranged web is always useful, the Huggin is really only fully useful when there are Nanos around. The falcon on the other hand can be useful in just about ANY scenario. If the Falcon is clearly at the head of the class here does it mean that it's overpowered or does it mean that the other Recons are underpowered? Afterall, nerfing ECM into the stone age won't make the Curse any better. If you look at the falcon in a Fleet, you'll find that it's ALWAYS welcome. Afterall, the ability to remove 4 ships from the fight at least a part of the time can be invaluable in any sized gang. Unfortunatly, even here the Falcon has it's problems. It's buffer is painfully small, and as such you'll find that as gang sizes increase the Falcon gives ground the Scorpion simply because the Scorpion's buffer let's it survive in places a Falcon would just pop. Is the Falcon and ECM in general overpowered simply because it's used more widely than other ECM or does it indicate something's wrong with the OTHER forms of EWAR? It seems to ME that the problem isn't the Falcon, and it isn't even ECM. As an EWAR type it's only truly useful on specialized ships, otherwise the painful cap drain and pitifully low base strength of the systems makes it a waste of slots. The real problem is that these days ECM is the ONLY good option for EWAR since everything else has been nerfed into obscelescence. If the goal is to level the playing field, nerfing ECM would certainly suffice but it doesn't fix the PROBLEM we have. To me, EWAR is designed to give players the option of doing something besides having a standard gank/tank setup, and as such it lends a certain fluidity to the game. A smaller fleet with well utalized EWAR support can defeat a larger more powerful fleet with poor EWAR support, and I don't think many rational people want to resort to a game where numbers of ships and luck are the only deciding factors in a battle. How about instead we look for ways to fix the other EWAR? Damps may have been overpowered but who says you can't boost their stats for a SINGLE function (range OR targeting time) back to their pre-nerf days? Tracking Disruptors have their problems, not the least of which is their complete ineffectivness against missiles. Why not just do away with the defender concept as a whole and let tracking disruptors become "targeting disruptors" and screw with missile targeting (E.G. a percentage of missiles simply fail to hit their targe)? NOS may have needed a nerf, but how about instead of having the rule of "only sucks power if you have less cap than them" become "only works at max capacity if you have more power, then becomes a diminishing return"? These aren't ironclad solutions, these are simply suggestions off the top of my head. I'm all for fixing what's broken but ECM ISN'T what's broken - it's the only EWAR that really functions. Fix the other types and let Amarr and Gallente recon pilots have a reason to dust off their old ships. Once the other types are fixed THEN we can consider ECM's power. Until that happens, we are all just making guesses.
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.03.25 02:45:00 - [173] Originally by: Reto Originally by: Methem The falcon is designed to remove 2-3 dps ships from a fight. no single cruiser should be able to do that. no other recon can do this by any means. also recons should be by far more vulnerable to their own ew. If you take away it's ability to do this, the Falcon has no purpose. It adds nothing else to pvp. What is your interpretation of its role?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:10:00 - [174] Originally by: Merdaneth .... You choose to pvp like that mate, not us. --------------- you all smell!
Endless Subversion Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:20:00 - [175] The falcon is beyond belief overpowered. ECCM doesn't come close to being effective enough. We've been fighting a corp using heavy amounts of falcon pilots. They almost always have more pilots than we do. Recently we had 2 falcon pilots PERMA jam four battleships all fielding ECCM. It's a joke. Not one of the battleships had more than 1 lock that entire 'fight'. Your tacklers can't tackle and ECCM, your battleships can't lock long enough to shoot anything. The falcons cross jam to allow escapes and easily fit a 1600 plate, so they've plenty of buffer. It's absurd, between cloaks and jams you never kill buffered falcons. I've heard people talking about dropping drones on them or 'insta' popping them. What a load of bull. A good indicator of game imbalance is when the only 'counter' is to bring some of your own. Self Destruct & LogOffs
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:28:00 - [176] Originally by: Endless Subversion The falcon is beyond belief overpowered. ECCM doesn't come close to being effective enough. We've been fighting a corp using heavy amounts of falcon pilots. They almost always have more pilots than we do. Recently we had 2 falcon pilots PERMA jam four battleships all fielding ECCM. It's a joke. Not one of the battleships had more than 1 lock that entire 'fight'. Your tacklers can't tackle and ECCM, your battleships can't lock long enough to shoot anything. The falcons cross jam to allow escapes and easily fit a 1600 plate, so they've plenty of buffer. It's absurd, between cloaks and jams you never kill buffered falcons. I've heard people talking about dropping drones on them or 'insta' popping them. What a load of bull. A good indicator of game imbalance is when the only 'counter' is to bring some of your own. I don't believe you tbqfh. If you can't figure out a way to counter it then perhaps its you thats the problem? Quote: They almost always have more pilots than we do. Then get more pilots that know what they're doing. Fact is the Falcon is a gang ship, what this means is that basically every argument in this thread in which balance is being discussed is invalid and irrelevant. As soon as more than one ship is involved its you the victim who wasn't prepared that got it wrong, not the ship. Yes ECM is powerful, yes its a pain in the arse but there is NO direct balance conflict with any other ship. It's useless alone and that is about the heaviest price a pvp ship can pay in this game. --------------- you all smell!
Cpt Cosmic Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:36:00 - [177] haha cant wait for the nerf cause of the whiners
Galen Salkor Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:37:00 - [178] I've read all the replies and I'm still not convinced the Falcon needs any more changing than reducing the jam strength to 15% per level or maybe something along the lines I suggested earlier. The scenarios presented as 'examples' don't really help in convincing me since perma jamming is impossible with ECCM. People who say it is even with ECCM just have bad luck for each cycle. Other than that, there really isn't a whole lot I feel to change about the Falcon except maybe boosting other race's ewar capabilities so the Falcon isn't the premiere ship that should be flown when wanting effective ewar.
Grimpak	Posted - 2008.03.25 06:49:00 - [179] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This would be a start. Also add a bit of ECCM boost. Nerf TD's while you're at it. Even on bonused ships, they're far too powerful. :) -Liang acutally, nerfing the str bonus from 20 to 15% in the falcon, and only that, would be the only thing I would do to the falcon, because atm, the only thing that the rook has better than the falcon is bigger base targetting range and stronger sensor (32 pts. if I'm not mistaken). however, I have to say that the rest of the ECM, by itself, doesn't need any kind of nerf. ECCM however needs something, because atm is a bit meh (read something, not more) --- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
techzer0	Posted - 2008.03.25 06:55:00 - [180] Originally by: Multras Stop saying the falcon can perma jam everything because thats utter BS, It can perma jam t1 frigs, some t2 frigs, t1 destroyers, and most dictors. Yeah... all 6 of my jammers normally miss the first cycle. Never seems to happen when I get jumped by a falcon, but it does. Heck, it took all of my jammers two cycles to jam a paladin the other day, and they're known for being ridiculously easy to jam ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster

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