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For gods sake can we sort out Falcons and ECM

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Scout101 State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:17:00 - [1] Everyones got a falcon - there rediculously overpowered, being perma jammed isnt fun at all. dual eccm and still its perma jam or if not another falcon comes in and jams. its completly f'ed up atm. Out there in eve pvp its like it was where multi-spec were OTT powered. might nice to have a all out 100% increase to all sensor strengths of all ships or hell reduced there jam time to 5 seconds. Its one aspect of eve where i cant bear, be nice if jamming was taken out completly. And the falcon was boosted aswell. What the hell was that all about?
Fluidality School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:20:00 - [2] Let me see if I got this right... You don't want a specialized Jamming ship to be able to jam you?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:20:00 - [3] I'm of the opinion that the falcon should have 15% to ECM strength per level as there's no real reason to use the rook due to that. Other than that, it's fine.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:23:00 - [4] Originally by: ElCoCo I'm of the opinion that the falcon should have 15% to ECM strength per level as there's no real reason to use the rook due to that. Other than that, it's fine. sounds reasonable
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:24:00 - [5] Originally by: Fluidality Let me see if I got this right... You don't want a specialized Jamming ship to be able to jam you? Sorta like atm where specialised damp ships cant damp very well :( You know ecms gonna get nerfed :P Hope not though, rather damps get buffed so you can at least put a damp or 2 on a falcon to make it get closer to the fight. Uber idea solves all !!
BloodyWomble Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:24:00 - [6] Signed. You should get a sec hit if you use ecm. In fact every time you undock in a caldari ship you should lose sec. Address the balance now!!
Syrenea Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:25:00 - [7] heh funny. Well i love the falcon, but even though your whines are pretty childish i do agree its overpowered. I liked how jamming was before it was chanced based must say. Cycle jam anyone?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:32:00 - [8] If a tech 2 EWar ship couldn't reliably kill the sensors of even one single ship, what would be the point of flying one? Even if it could do that, but could only disable a single ship it would still not be worth flying over a battleship or another tech 2 cruiser in small gang or fleet. It needs to disable one to counter for the heavy ship (with a much better tank) that you could have brought in its place and then a second to actually be making itself useful.
MindBender Foundry.	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:33:00 - [9] Wow, this gave me a good chuckle. Were you even playing when they put in the first ECM nerf? Now it's pretty easy to get by not having your ship Jammed. It's called fitting an ECCM. All you need is one Midslot and you give yourself a good chance of not having yourself get Jammed. The corp I'm with we use ECM and we also use ECCM if we know the fight we might be going into has ECM with them. Now, the mear fact we are all almost all Armor tankers helps us greatly, but you picked a Shield tank... not my fault. Falcon is easy to counter with another Jammer or putting on an ECCM. Learn to use 'em and you may have some fun. Oh, also... the Scorpion... great little ship in a support gang fleet. Falcons don't even know what hit them.
DeadDuck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:34:00 - [10] Usually a ECCM mod helps a bit ... ________________ God is my Wingman
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:35:00 - [11] You all realize ECM was nerfed a long time ago right? That this version of ECM is watered down from what it use to be? Believe it or not, a falcon can't perma jam everything. And if you jump right on top of him, forget ever getting jammed, especially if you have drones. Recon ships are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. And they are NASTY at it. And don't let amarr pilots tell you the curse is broken. (The pilgrim on the other hand.....) And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. Recon ships, except the pilgrim, are completely in line and whooping ass like their price suggests they should do. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
BloodyWomble Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Reem Fairchild If a tech 2 EWar ship couldn't reliably kill the sensors of even one single ship, what would be the point of flying one? Even if it could do that, but could only disable a single ship it would still not be worth flying over a battleship or another tech 2 cruiser in small gang or fleet. It needs to disable one to counter for the heavy ship (with a much better tank) that you could have brought in its place and then a second to actually be making itself useful. Oh hell you mean it would have to be called an arazu or a pilgrim then ?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. 48 km (and that's with recon 5). Even if you were right about the usefullnes of the warp scrambling range (which you are not) and the Gallente recons didn't cap out incredibly fast running the modules they need to run in order to work (which they do), still what about the Celestis? All it has is damps. Is it right that the blackbird is so much more powerful?
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:42:00 - [14] Oh my...is it that time of the month already? ECM is fine. Its nearly pointless on non-ecm ships (nano/nos/ecm domis anyone?) and is powerful on ecm-spec'd ships. Whenever ECM ships fail in their role (luck based might i remind you?) we're open to death. a volley from a gank snipe bs, and we're instapopped near enough. Dual ECCM will near enough make a falcon NEED to put all his/her jammers on you, in order to actually get you jammed. And again, its luck based, even with a few numbers on its side. Chances are however, you wont be jammed, and deffinately not for long. Although, thats in terms of gang warfare. If you're fighting a falcon (and possibly more) solo....Why on earth should one or two modules counteract the entirety of a specialised ship, with you doing zero in actual skill? And the falcon was boosted, due to asses using ecm on every and any ship. Thus ECM got nerfed to high heaven, and the falcon never got the love it deserved. Now it has. Stop whining, and get on. honestly..
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.22 23:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. 48 km (and that's with recon 5). Even if you were right about the usefullnes of the warp scrambling range (which you are not) and the Gallente recons didn't cap out incredibly fast running the modules they need to run in order to work (which they do), still what about the Celestis? All it has is damps. Is it right that the blackbird is so much more powerful? Yes. Blackbird = luck based. A jammer is a roll of the dice, and with the blackbird, its about a 1/4 chance of success of jamming. An arazu? put targetting range damps on a ship, and you damp them down to a set range of what? 13km on some bs? And its not luck based, its permanent. Plus, ALL arazu pilots ive known have at some point used faction warp scrams on their arazus. 48km is a cheap mans range.
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Megan Maynard You all realize ECM was nerfed a long time ago right? That this version of ECM is watered down from what it use to be? Believe it or not, a falcon can't perma jam everything. And if you jump right on top of him, forget ever getting jammed, especially if you have drones. Recon ships are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. And they are NASTY at it. And don't let amarr pilots tell you the curse is broken. (The pilgrim on the other hand.....) And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. Recon ships, except the pilgrim, are completely in line and whooping ass like their price suggests they should do. Moron.... *dari ecm boats can do their over powered thing from great distance. Noble righteous proud gallante boats have to be relatively close with no means of protection since the damp nerf. I'll explain seeing since you are rather stupid on the subject of gallente recons. The example you give of 60km indicates said gallente recon pilot spends 300mill isk on 2 single point faction disruptors, in reality its more like 48km with recon 5 using t2 disruptors. Said pilot can't really stay around too long as his damps have been nerfed rather badly and ships don't really have to travel too close to be able to counter his (3) nerfed damps, and thats one ship he has to counter!! He can fit resolution scripts I guess but your average mwd cruiser, bc is gonna have lock by the time he casually saunters over to the poor gallente recon pilot. Of course the gallante recon pilot can fit mwd also but he is no match in speed to the rapidly approaching cruiser, bc. Oh but wait the ebil gallente pilot can erm drone, missile spam, hyrid his assailant to death !! no actually as he has for damage!! Ironically if he fits ecm drones or warps off right away (defeats his being there) he has a chance of living. Where as *dari ecm boat sitting 200km off has all the time in the world to deliver his payload without having to do anything but paint his fingernails or change his tampon. And thats on muliple targets. So the disruptor bonus you say !!!! naaa heavy dictor has kinda negated that particular niche as he only needs one point and nothing gets away, excellent tank to boot!! why use gallante for that particular purpose anymore.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:04:00 - [17] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 23/03/2008 00:05:33 Originally by: Waxau Yes. Blackbird = luck based. Yes, there is a random chance (well, not always) of jamming the target, but when you do jam the target it's sensors are gone. It can't target anything at all for that cycle. And yes, a dampener on a target has a 100% chance (within optimal range at least, otherwise it is also random) of reducing the target's targeting range or targeting speed. But that's an effect that, depending on the situation, may or may not hinder the target's fighting ability at all. That's balance in of itself. There's no need for dampener's to be weaker to account for the random effect of ECM. It's already accounted for in the way they function. Right now the ECM ships can do their proper jobs as EWar ships like they're supposed to. And that's how it should be. But the dampening ships can't.
DARTHxFREE Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:07:00 - [18] Edited by: DARTHxFREE on 23/03/2008 00:07:07 "for gods sake" = Blasphemy you don't wanna anger those religious zelots, you wont like them when thier angry /join Cheeze & Whine Club
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 23/03/2008 00:05:33 Originally by: Waxau Yes. Blackbird = luck based. Yes, there is a random chance (well, not always) of jamming the target, but when you do jam the target it's sensors are gone. It can't target anything at all for that cycle. And yes, a dampener on a target has a 100% chance (within optimal range at least, otherwise it is also random) of reducing the target's targeting range or targeting speed. But that's an effect that, depending on the situation, may or may not hinder the target's fighting ability at all. That's balance in of itself. There's no need for dampener's to be weaker to account for the random effect of ECM. It's already accounted for in the way they function. Right now the ECM ships can do their proper jobs as EWar ships like they're supposed to. And that's how it should be. But the dampening ships can't. Agreed - When the damp nerf first came in, i made alot of comments on the nerf being unneeded, and over the top. And i dont even FIT damps on any of my ships, let alone fly Gallente. However, to that extent, this nerf is EXACTLY the same as what happened to ECM. The masses used said module on ANY ship they could. It became the staple diet of any ship fitting. CCP took measures to reduce it. Those spec'd in it suffered. --------- Theres no need to nerf ECM - Theres a need to boost the Arazu/Lach/Keres/Celestis
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. Recon ships, except the pilgrim, are completely in line and whooping ass like their price suggests they should do. You fail. A falcon or rook can already perma jam some1 from 60km + protect ALL his gang friends and pump out roughy the same constant dps. (drones can be destroyed very easilly) Gallente recons need to be buffed so that they force targets to get closer (thats the whole point). Not damp them to 24k so they can still do everything as if they wernt even being damped. As for the warp scram bonus ANY ceptor with the disrupt bonus then put a faction disruptor on that does the job just as good (even better) and has more survivability. Oh and, if you jump on top of an arazu forget being effected by anything you will defiantly kill him whereas a falcon can jam then cloak / warp off. Uber idea solves all !!
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:16:00 - [21] remember when I said that people would be screaming to nerf ECM boats next? just call me nostradamus. I don't mind. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
SoftRevolution Complicity.	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:26:00 - [22] The Falcon actually does what it says on the can. If it couldn't permajam a single ship it'd have exactly no reason for existing. It's also basically useless solo. You get a whopping one or two high slots for token anti-drone firepower so it sounds like the complaint is basically about a) any useful e-war ingame as a concept (is losing to any weapon or module fun?) and b) the other guy bringing friends EVE RELATED CONTENT
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:27:00 - [23] The falcon is designed to remove 2-3 dps ships from a fight. Obviously if you have 1 ship vs a falcon, IT WILL BE JAMMED. Multiple ships, using eccm,are a complete pain in the ass to jam. I fly a falcon with specialized skills using rigs and racials, so I know what I'm talking about. The only threads about this issue are the ones that dont take into account the facts about how specialized the falcon really is, and the fact that a single ship, WITH ECCM, SHOULD be jammed. Falcon brings no tackle, no dps, and is paper thin. just my 2 cents
Mortifix M0NEY SH0T	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:30:00 - [24] Why when anyone has a hard time vs. a ship they whine and scream for a nerf. If u want an easy game to play then STOP playing eve. Every ship has a strong point and a weak point. If you cant seem to find a way to overcome a falcon, then u just need to stop playing really. The idea of this game is to adapt and overcome. Maybe u should just stick to ratting.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:32:00 - [25] It's not ECM's fault all the other EW options are inferior. ECM is fine, the others need boosting, and people need to stop whining about EW. We know, it's annoying when you can't shoot, that's the idea.
Multras D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:33:00 - [26] Stop saying the falcon can perma jam everything because thats utter BS, It can perma jam t1 frigs, some t2 frigs, t1 destroyers, and most dictors. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Crazy Tasty Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:33:00 - [27] Originally by: joshmorris Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. Recon ships, except the pilgrim, are completely in line and whooping ass like their price suggests they should do. You fail. A falcon or rook can already perma jam some1 from 60km + protect ALL his gang friends and pump out roughy the same constant dps. (drones can be destroyed very easilly) Gallente recons need to be buffed so that they force targets to get closer (thats the whole point). Not damp them to 24k so they can still do everything as if they wernt even being damped. As for the warp scram bonus ANY ceptor with the disrupt bonus then put a faction disruptor on that does the job just as good (even better) and has more survivability. Oh and, if you jump on top of an arazu forget being effected by anything you will defiantly kill him whereas a falcon can jam then cloak / warp off. Did you just use Falcon and DPS in the same sentence? Rook, maybe, can do some DPS, but if you're even in range to shoot with either you've done something wrong. As a specced ECM pilot I love my Falcon, but there are a few good counters to them. ECCM works well, especially when put on another recon (Curse anyone?) or a BS, however nothing can or should save you from multiple racial ECM mods against a single ship. A few small fast ships, if the falcon is already having to jam the primaries, 3 or 4 small ships with either A) kill him B) force him to warp C) force him to jam the small ships instead of the big ships. Gallente recons also work well against a Rook/Falcon at range as 1 damp will probably make him lose target at 150k. There is always the option of you're own ECM to. Also, not on topic, but any argument against the Gal recons is bull. I fly with Gal specced pilots all the time and those recons still pwn. ------ Originally by: Garmon people using warp core stabilizers are generally more skilled than people not using warp corer stabilizers
Dexton Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:39:00 - [28] Azeroth has no jammers, I suggest you move there. New eden is for people that use their head to solf problems.
Xequecal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:06:00 - [29] Edited by: Xequecal on 23/03/2008 02:06:45 How do you "use your head" to solve a jammer problem? I don't think Falcons are overpowered, but ECM is the opposite of skill. You push the button and roll the dice. If your target has ECCM, you're still rolling the dice. The ship has no tank, no DPS, and they're extremely slow and heavy. The whole thing is 100% random chance, if you jam them they can't do ****, doesn't matter how "skilled" they are. If you fail to jam them you're dead.
Mortifix M0NEY SH0T	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:16:00 - [30] ok i figured out how to make it fair for everyone, 1. Remove Caldari from eve because the are too good at ECM and PVE 2. Remove Gallente from eve because the are too good at PVP 3. Remove Minmatar because they are too fast 4. Now everyone can be amarr and we can change the name to Amarr Online
Eaterof Children Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:51:00 - [31] WTF kind of argument is "it can permajam any ship"? Even if was true (which it is not), OF COURSE it should permajam any ship. Which it cannot, it is chance based, anything bigger than a cruiser and it's actually roll of the dice, although its almost certain that a single target will be jammed. Just think for a sec. You pay for a T2 cruiser hull (i.e. = battleship cost if you factor insurance and the like). It needs to remove a target from the battle in order to just HALF break even (because it doesn't damage people at BS level to do so). Permanently. In order to actually justify its use, it would need to actually permajam ANOTHER target, so that it justifies its existance as a ship that causes practically no damage (compared to the battleship hull it costs) and no defense. Which is more or less its current state, minus some. It can, pretty much, remove two to three targets, NOT reliably, or one to two targets, rather reliably. As it should be. On the other hand, I understand the frustration of being jammed and being able to do nothing about it. Well, damn, it also hurts to lose a ship, or a pod, or something. But, hell, it's part of the game and it's balanced.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.23 03:26:00 - [32] It is boring and yeah everyone and their mom has a falcon alt. Its getting annoying and isnt really adding anything to the game except a FOTM. trains a falcon alt herself to keep up with everyone -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.03.23 03:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer It is boring and yeah everyone and their mom has a falcon alt. Its getting annoying and isnt really adding anything to the game except a FOTM. trains a falcon alt herself to keep up with everyone you add nothing to this thread
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.23 03:46:00 - [34] Edited by: Chr0nosX on 23/03/2008 03:46:40 I gotta admit Falcon is overpowered. It can warp in at 100km jam a few hacs or a BS or two maybe missing a few jam cycles but pretty much perma jammed. Even if you get a point on the damn thing it just jams you and warps off. The arazu on the other hand is a joke, for all you saying its fine - why do you never see it in gangs anymore?
Mortifix M0NEY SH0T	Posted - 2008.03.23 04:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Chr0nosX Edited by: Chr0nosX on 23/03/2008 03:46:40 I gotta admit Falcon is overpowered. It can warp in at 100km jam a few hacs or a BS or two maybe missing a few jam cycles but pretty much perma jammed. Even if you get a point on the damn thing it just jams you and warps off. The arazu on the other hand is a joke, for all you saying its fine - why do you never see it in gangs anymore? Wow, you just said the same thing that the rest of these whiners have been saying. Congrats. Like EaterofChildren already stated, NO the falcon cannot perma jamm muiltple BS and HACS. I am near maxed out in my Falcon and I have never been able to perma jam 3 or so targets (other than T1 frigs or T1 cruiser maybe). YES I have had 4 or so targets all jammed at once, but there is no way I could keep them perma jammed. If there is anyone out there that think they can, PLEASE enlighten me, so i also can become an ECM god like you.
Karad Forsky State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 05:15:00 - [36] Falcon as it is now is very powerful. Probably one of the most powerful tide-turners in small/med-size combat. Overpowered? Well I don't know if CCP intended for them to be this powerful, so can't judge. I agree that the ship is thoroughly overused at the moment, if that counts as some argument for its excessive strength. No, the Falcon can not perma-jam everything, and yes it is fragile close-up - but a knowledgeable pilot will very rarely find himself in a situation he can't escape from in a Falcon. The problem comes in when multiple Falcons are used, especially in combination with nano-gangs - these gangs really are a pain, and invite nothing but hugely superior numbers to counter. That said, it takes organization to use ECM efficiently in gang with multiple Falcons, but it is amazingly powerful when used correctly - disproportionately to the effort involved in my opinion.
Mo Steel Sanguis vix Dignatio	Posted - 2008.03.23 05:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Scout101 Everyones got a falcon - there rediculously overpowered, being perma jammed isnt fun at all. dual eccm and still its perma jam or if not another falcon comes in and jams. its completly f'ed up atm. Clearly, two players jamming one target and succeeding is f'ed up. ----- Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each.
Corwain Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.23 05:43:00 - [38] Don't nerf Falcon, boost the other recons. Every recon should be able to lock down multiple BS. --
DuKai FSF Holdings Inc	Posted - 2008.03.23 06:06:00 - [39] Nerf shields. Nerf armor. Nerf structure. They stop my guns from instapopping ships...
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.03.23 08:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Corwain Don't nerf Falcon, boost the other recons. Every recon should be able to lock down multiple BS. falcon locking down a BS is fine, it cannot ever kill it. A curse locking down a battleship is more dangerous, as a curse can ably kill almost any BS. Besides, variety is nice, not all recons should do the same two bit tactic. that said, every recon should be useful, and right now pilgrim, arazu, lachesis are not usefull pretty much at all. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
pandymen The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.23 09:10:00 - [41] Well, the pilgrim is still useful, it is just not as powerful and hardy as the curse. The gal recons, on the other hand, don't have damps to fall back on. Granted, I still do not think they are quite as underpowered as people claim. When you have so many threads whining about how overpowered falcons are, you gotta think why aren't ppl using more arazu's to lock down those falcons? A gal recon is great at stopping a sniper in his tracks. Let the falcon try to jam at 200km, but with only 1 sensor booster, he won't have the range after you sick just one damp on him. Now, multiply that by several and you have just perma damped 3 falcons. That said tho, not sure why falcons are so overpowered now than before. Before the last boost, the rook was just as good as the falcon at jamming...and no one complained about it being able to permajam "omfg 40 ships at once." The falcon is now just a way for caldari pilots to do what the rook did while not dying at the onset of every engagement.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.23 09:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Methem you add nothing to this thread Because its the truth? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Shevar A.W.M Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2008.03.23 09:19:00 - [43] No matter how you look at it ever since the Pilgrim and Arazu nerf the falcon and rapier have been overpowered compared to them. I would vote boosting the pilgrim and arazu instead of nerfing the falcon and rapier though --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
L70Rogue State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 09:27:00 - [44] Originally by: Crazy Tasty Originally by: joshmorris Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. Recon ships, except the pilgrim, are completely in line and whooping ass like their price suggests they should do. You fail. A falcon or rook can already perma jam some1 from 60km + protect ALL his gang friends and pump out roughy the same constant dps. (drones can be destroyed very easilly) Gallente recons need to be buffed so that they force targets to get closer (thats the whole point). Not damp them to 24k so they can still do everything as if they wernt even being damped. As for the warp scram bonus ANY ceptor with the disrupt bonus then put a faction disruptor on that does the job just as good (even better) and has more survivability. Oh and, if you jump on top of an arazu forget being effected by anything you will defiantly kill him whereas a falcon can jam then cloak / warp off. Did you just use Falcon and DPS in the same sentence? Rook, maybe, can do some DPS, but if you're even in range to shoot with either you've done something wrong. As a specced ECM pilot I love my Falcon, but there are a few good counters to them. ECCM works well, especially when put on another recon (Curse anyone?) or a BS, however nothing can or should save you from multiple racial ECM mods against a single ship. A few small fast ships, if the falcon is already having to jam the primaries, 3 or 4 small ships with either A) kill him B) force him to warp C) force him to jam the small ships instead of the big ships. Gallente recons also work well against a Rook/Falcon at range as 1 damp will probably make him lose target at 150k. There is always the option of you're own ECM to. Also, not on topic, but any argument against the Gal recons is bull. I fly with Gal specced pilots all the time and those recons still pwn. This^ Gallente recons can still solopwn ships when all the falcon can do is jam. Gallente whine too much.
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 10:02:00 - [45] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer It is boring and yeah everyone and their mom has a falcon alt. Its getting annoying and isnt really adding anything to the game except a FOTM. trains a falcon alt herself to keep up with everyone This is quite true for my alt and others i know in game, pirates have them sitting off gate in camps due to their range capabilites. When i trained one recently I was amazed at how effective it was within a few days of training, I felt dirty getting into a caldari ship and the stench is still real bad. Thankfully it fell to bits tho and I'm quite sure not to invest in another altho my alt did train for a basilisk, another ship which leaves me wanting when I know how good the 3 other logistics are. Can't the 3 other races not just extinguish caldari ? it would solve the ecm problem and people wouldn't have to lower their standards in making the mistake of training caldari. Yours, A concerned eve'ster. ps ccp can we have a tongue in cheek smiley please :P
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.23 10:23:00 - [46] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 23/03/2008 10:23:59 Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Crazy Tasty As a specced ECM pilot I love my Falcon, but there are a few good counters to them. ECCM works well, especially when put on another recon (Curse anyone?) or a BS, however nothing can or should save you from multiple racial ECM mods against a single ship. A few small fast ships, if the falcon is already having to jam the primaries, 3 or 4 small ships with either A) kill him B) force him to warp C) force him to jam the small ships instead of the big ships. Gallente recons also work well against a Rook/Falcon at range as 1 damp will probably make him lose target at 150k. There is always the option of you're own ECM to. Also, not on topic, but any argument against the Gal recons is bull. I fly with Gal specced pilots all the time and those recons still pwn. This^ Gallente recons can still solopwn ships when all the falcon can do is jam. Gallente whine too much. WTB: Remote Sensor Dampeners that do anything at all at 150 km range.
Shaemell Buttleson The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.23 11:11:00 - [47] Instead of nerfing ECM the ships that use other types of EW like Arazus/Damps, Pilgrims/T disruptors etc etc should be able to use their type of EW without using the scripts to make it as effective on them as it was before the change. Of course all other shiptypes not designed for this should have to use scripts. The script idea was ok in theory but it hammered too many things.
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 11:41:00 - [48] Edited by: Grimpak on 23/03/2008 11:42:32 Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Crazy Tasty Originally by: joshmorris Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. Recon ships, except the pilgrim, are completely in line and whooping ass like their price suggests they should do. You fail. A falcon or rook can already perma jam some1 from 60km + protect ALL his gang friends and pump out roughy the same constant dps. (drones can be destroyed very easilly) Gallente recons need to be buffed so that they force targets to get closer (thats the whole point). Not damp them to 24k so they can still do everything as if they wernt even being damped. As for the warp scram bonus ANY ceptor with the disrupt bonus then put a faction disruptor on that does the job just as good (even better) and has more survivability. Oh and, if you jump on top of an arazu forget being effected by anything you will defiantly kill him whereas a falcon can jam then cloak / warp off. Did you just use Falcon and DPS in the same sentence? Rook, maybe, can do some DPS, but if you're even in range to shoot with either you've done something wrong. As a specced ECM pilot I love my Falcon, but there are a few good counters to them. ECCM works well, especially when put on another recon (Curse anyone?) or a BS, however nothing can or should save you from multiple racial ECM mods against a single ship. A few small fast ships, if the falcon is already having to jam the primaries, 3 or 4 small ships with either A) kill him B) force him to warp C) force him to jam the small ships instead of the big ships. Gallente recons also work well against a Rook/Falcon at range as 1 damp will probably make him lose target at 150k. There is always the option of you're own ECM to. Also, not on topic, but any argument against the Gal recons is bull. I fly with Gal specced pilots all the time and those recons still pwn. This^ Gallente recons can still solopwn ships when all the falcon can do is jam. Gallente whine too much. sure, WTB 200km range damps. and do tell where I can get such "solopwning" gallente recon that can do more damage than a curse/pilgrim, be as quick as the huginn/rapier and able to remove 2-3 ships out of the battle like the rook/falcon. the arazu can "solopwn" industrials and frigates, and maybe the odd badly fit/piloted cruiser, at most. if you say otherwise, please do tell how, when, what fittings and in wich circumstances did such ship do such miraculous thing. oh and before you can come up with the lach, do tell aswell how a ship like that can do such thing. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.23 11:45:00 - [49] Originally by: Grimpak sure, WTB 200km range damps. and do tell where I can get such "solopwning" gallente recon that can do more damage than a curse/pilgrim, be as quick as the huginn/rapier and able to remove 2-3 ships out of the battle like the rook/falcon. Actually both caldari and gallente recons outdamage curse and pilgrim. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 12:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Grimpak sure, WTB 200km range damps. and do tell where I can get such "solopwning" gallente recon that can do more damage than a curse/pilgrim, be as quick as the huginn/rapier and able to remove 2-3 ships out of the battle like the rook/falcon. Actually both caldari and gallente recons outdamage curse and pilgrim. arazu with 3 rails + faction AM + T2 hammers = 226 dps falcon with 250mm rail + 2 heavy launchers with faction ammo = 80 dps pilgrim with 5 hammers = 224 dps. so yeah, the arazu outdamages the pilgrim by 2 dps, I concur, but the falcon is pretty much down there in DPS terms. lachesis with 3 rails + 2 heavy launchers with faction ammo (faction AM) = 290 dps rook with 5 launchers + CN scourges = 155 dps curse with 5 T2 hammers = 224 dps. again, I concur that the lach does more damage than the curse, but not the rook. but then again ,slapping damage drones in a mostly anti-support ship is a bit meh. ECM drones are better here, wich means that the lach and the arazu only outdamage the curse and the pilgrim due to the extra 119 dps provided by 4 T2 hammers, meaning that the lach and the arazu, sans drones do 171 and 107 dps respectively. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
trouser boy The Eve Pacification Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.23 12:02:00 - [51] Euurgghh stop using that god damned phrase "perma-jam". There is no perma-jam ever, even if the sensor strength of the ECM module exceeds that of the ship (frigs only) theres a blanket chance it won't be jammed although more often than not it is (like rolling a 6 on a dice for an automatic save). ECM module strength/Ships Sensor Strength x 100 = Percentage chance of jam Might be some other arcane figures like the phases of the moon and the price of guano in Venezuela that effect it knowing this game but in general thats the rule. Falcons bonus reduced to 15% wouldn't be too much of a crime tbh, but only because the poor Rook suffers. I'd rather they boosted the combat application of the Rook though. :P
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.23 12:21:00 - [52] Honestly... ECM might be a tad over the top, but not nearly as bad as some people in here project it to be. Easy solution would imho be swap damp and ecm ranges around. (This means the damps would max out at optimals at 81km, a falcon would have an optimal of 90km.) Reasoning? Damps would battle long range setups, ECM would battle any and all ships. Tracking disruptors are tougher. Only difference I would like to see here is really a way to combat missiles - the so far only immune weapon system there is. Postcount: 43031
Jarvin Kell Kingdom of Kador Kingdom of Redemption	Posted - 2008.03.23 12:23:00 - [53] The only thing that I think needs looking into is that there is no real reason to fly a rook over a falcon. Both have 3 lows, both have 7 mids. I think the force recons should take a cue from the Arazu v. Lachesis relationship--the Arazu loses a midslot when compared to the Lachesis, in turn losing a bit of e-war capability in favor of survivability and the other attributes that come from having a cloak. And on to the Gallente Recons...Sure they still have uses, but often it's better to just bring a different ship in the first place. As others have said, Gallente Recons should be just as powerful as they were pre-nerf. Gallente RECONS weren't overpowered, damps being used on every ship's spare mid slots were overpowered. Yes the scrambling range bonus is nice, but other ships have good bonuses as well. You may even say that the the target painting bonus on Minnie Recons has been made more useful with the torp changes. I really think the Pilgrim is what needs looking into the most, however. All other pairs of recons share the e-war bonuses between force/combat. The Pilgrim loses the energy vampire range bonus while all other force recons simply lose a damage bonus. I think it would make more sense for the pilgrim to lose the drone damage/hp bonus and keep the range bonus. Overall I think there are some minor tweaks that could be done but nothing too extreme is needed.
Rastigan Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 12:39:00 - [54] As if it would kill anyone to fit a single ECCM module to counter this. Most recons have a way of crippling ships Close range weapons ? = you are screwed if a Minmatar recon webs you. Got an average targetting range ? = hope you dont get damped by a Gal recon. Got guns or need cap ? = Blah blah sucky Amarr recons can still do something. Granted a Caldari recon can do it from much further away, but the ship does NOTHING other than this, 1 ECCM on a Battleship can ruin their chances greatly. 1 ECCM'ed sniper ship will make all of those paper tanked ships GTFO. ------------------------- Welcome to Rock,Paper,Scissors online forums, where people complain about scissors beating paper.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.23 13:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Mortifix Wow, you just said the same thing that the rest of these whiners have been saying. Congrats. Like EaterofChildren already stated, NO the falcon cannot perma jamm muiltple BS and HACS. I am near maxed out in my Falcon and I have never been able to perma jam 3 or so targets (other than T1 frigs or T1 cruiser maybe). YES I have had 4 or so targets all jammed at once, but there is no way I could keep them perma jammed. If there is anyone out there that think they can, PLEASE enlighten me, so i also can become an ECM god like you. I said the Falcon can jam (while missing a few jam cycles) a few hacs OR one or two BS. Maybe try fitting racial jammers instead of multispecs.
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.23 13:29:00 - [56] Originally by: Rastigan As if it would kill anyone to fit a single ECCM module to counter this. Most recons have a way of crippling ships Close range weapons ? = you are screwed if a Minmatar recon webs you. Got an average targetting range ? = hope you dont get damped by a Gal recon. Got guns or need cap ? = Blah blah sucky Amarr recons can still do something. Granted a Caldari recon can do it from much further away, but the ship does NOTHING other than this, 1 ECCM on a Battleship can ruin their chances greatly. 1 ECCM'ed sniper ship will make all of those paper tanked ships GTFO. ------------------------- Welcome to Rock,Paper,Scissors online forums, where people complain about scissors beating paper. Postcount: 588906
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.03.23 13:45:00 - [57] I thought caldari were meant to have the best EW, so why should it be nerfed? It just seems OP since every gang has a few jammers. But without them smaller gangs would not be able to take on larger blobs. Falcons pilots dont usualy jam random targets, they go for KEY TARGETS : logistics, or other recons. If you fit into that catergory fit ECCM. Dont whine about something before trying to counter it. Anyway WTB perma-jam.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:05:00 - [58] End of the day, this thread contains all the players who dont understand how ecm works, and just whine when they find themselves jammed for consecutive turns. Need i point folks to the immature postings and such. For example, as Lyrias retort Quote: Because its the truth Well done Lyria. And to those whining, and are willing to listen. ECM takes alot of practice to get right. Correct, it is difficult to lock down a falcon. But then again, are Arazu's any different? Or rapiers? The two types of falcon pilots are 1. Those who fly it for the ECM, and have no actual knowledge of the ship. And 2. Those who spec in it, and KNOW how to fly it. Pilot 1's are the type who get killed at gate camps, and whilst ecming and such. They know not of how to survive. The effort they put in, means they SHOULD die. And they do. Pilot 2's know how to survive, have ECM spots, and so on. They put tonnes of effort and isk, let alone SP into making sure they can jam you. And the only thing you have to do is fit ECCM, and you cut his effectiveness by near enough half. All that speccing, and one ship, fitting 1 ECCM, makes life 2x as hard. Please - Dont whine to us about how ECM is cough overpowered. Id far prefer it to be non-luck based, and have the good ol' set stats. Falcon with a jam strength of 14.6? Vaga with a jam strength of 14? That would be permajam thankyou very much. You whiners have EVERYTHING going your way with ECM, minus the fact that its the most popular and powerful EW. And ECM isnt even to blame for that! Boost damps etc, fine. But stop whining just cos you got the short straw (like we did 3 years ago, for how many times? 3 or 4? Please...get real..
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:21:00 - [59] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 23/03/2008 14:21:54 Originally by: Waxau End of the day, this thread contains all the players who dont understand how ecm works, and just whine when they find themselves jammed for consecutive turns. Need i point folks to the immature postings and such. For example, as Lyrias retort Quote: Because its the truth Well done Lyria. Im just stating my oppinion. Im training a falcon alt myself but it doesnt friggin mean I have to like where this game is going. You can rant all you want about how hard ECM'ing is in a falcon, I dont care. I still find it boring. ...or is this about something else? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:33:00 - [60] Wax eccm isnt that effective mate. I run a 2nd account falcon pilot with pure skills, if i want summin jammed it does get jammed, along with many others. Falcons are pretty nuts atm - Boosted with no real justification. Ive been jammed over 4 cycles straigtht and then only a 20sec respite only to be jammed again on dual overloaded ECCM's. When u need to donate 2 mid slots to overcome being jammed 90% of the time, something's broke. Thing is when u have a gang with 2-4 falcons the only way to counter that kinda of jamming power is to bring 5 falcons of your own and hope you lock them quicker then they do. I mean its just my experience with these ships. We all hate being jammed since your so helpless. Also people know when they have a falcon in gang they think "dont worry we have a falcon" and just walk fights, i know because i believe this when ive got one in gang. There too strong is my final thought.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:42:00 - [61] Il also add this to gallente recons. If they dampen an interceptor for example, its proportional to there total lock range which isnt much. You can always lock down an arazu by getting in really close.
Sajuukar Grail Seekers	Posted - 2008.03.23 15:09:00 - [62] i kinda agree with the falcon beign overpowered , it can so easy sway the tide of a battle by effectivly jamming anything up to 3-4 ships on and off. though i only think it needs a small tweak . Maybe for example limiting its base targeting range to say 70km , this either forces it to move slightly closer to the fight or forces it to use some of its mids for sensor boosters. this in turn would reduce its ability to jam 3-4 ships constantly. my second idea is to reduce the amount of ships the falcon can target to maybe 2 ships . this would eliminate it permjamming multiple ships. yet u can garantee 2 ships getin permajammed. though i think implementing both changes would be too much of a nerf.
Waxau The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.23 15:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Sajuukar i kinda agree with the falcon beign overpowered , it can so easy sway the tide of a battle by effectivly jamming anything up to 3-4 ships on and off. though i only think it needs a small tweak . Maybe for example limiting its base targeting range to say 70km , this either forces it to move slightly closer to the fight or forces it to use some of its mids for sensor boosters. this in turn would reduce its ability to jam 3-4 ships constantly. my second idea is to reduce the amount of ships the falcon can target to maybe 2 ships . this would eliminate it permjamming multiple ships. yet u can garantee 2 ships getin permajammed. though i think implementing both changes would be too much of a nerf. Very much so too heavy. You're proposing to either nuke its lock range by 1/2 (falcons already fit sensor boosters and mwds), and lock range of two targets? lol. Why should the falcon all of a sudden be burdened, just because damps got nerfed? Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM are purely Ex-Damp users, who are out for a bit of payback.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.23 15:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Waxau Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM hate EWar in general and are the same people who whined about damps until they were killed. Fixed.
Sajuukar Grail Seekers	Posted - 2008.03.23 15:35:00 - [65] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Sajuukar i kinda agree with the falcon beign overpowered , it can so easy sway the tide of a battle by effectivly jamming anything up to 3-4 ships on and off. though i only think it needs a small tweak . Maybe for example limiting its base targeting range to say 70km , this either forces it to move slightly closer to the fight or forces it to use some of its mids for sensor boosters. this in turn would reduce its ability to jam 3-4 ships constantly. my second idea is to reduce the amount of ships the falcon can target to maybe 2 ships . this would eliminate it permjamming multiple ships. yet u can garantee 2 ships getin permajammed. though i think implementing both changes would be too much of a nerf. Very much so too heavy. You're proposing to either nuke its lock range by 1/2 (falcons already fit sensor boosters and mwds), and lock range of two targets? lol. Why should the falcon all of a sudden be burdened, just because damps got nerfed? Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM are purely Ex-Damp users, who are out for a bit of payback. hmm yes maybe tht would be to much of a nerf but the figures i chose were just picked out of the air and should be propally ballanced. tho you can't disagree that something has to be done.
Ivan Kinsikor International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.23 15:49:00 - [66] Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 23/03/2008 15:49:50 ECM is fine, boost damps. A simple range fix on them would do a lot :p. The falloff being way bigger then the optimal makes me scratch my head. We're supposed to be damping targeting range/scan res, but to do it effectively we need to be close in. But if we're close in we run a good chance of being targeted and popped. I CALL SHENANIGANS! 60 optimal 30 falloff now plz Killing is business and business is good.
Arlana Aarro Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:09:00 - [67] But I just got my Falcon alt, don't have him nerfed already. :(
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:12:00 - [68] People have perfectly valid points about ecm and its being over powered in relation to other forms of ewar. Solo ecm boats are crap but in any other scenario they are battle winners. There is no negating the fact you have to know how to use ecm, but in the right hands it is overpowered. The fact you can use ecm boats at range to great advantage surpasses any other recon ewar, purely for the purpose of ewar and disabiltating the enemy. Some people in this post claim, any who claims ecm is over powered are merely whinging thru ignorance on the subject of ecm. but they defeat their own argument by merely suggesting ecm whingers are wrong because they don't understand ecm and the use of. Ok then please enlighten those in the dark on the subject of ecm, feel free to be as in depth as you wish and please do not base it soley on the evil of ECCM!!! Otherwise just cos you say something don't make it so. Personaly ecm does not suite my style of eve at the moment but I do fly a falcon on my alt and tbh not much skill or isk needs investing to fly a falcon with efficiency, its more about technique and prior planning. Not going to bother outlining the pros and cons of the other race recons as other peeps in this post have already done so, much to it failing to register on the senses of the "ooo ecm is right peachy as it is" brigade.
annoing MisFunk Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:13:00 - [69] Originally by: Mortifix Every ship has a strong point and a weak point Really? Then kindly explain what the Pilgrims strong point is? Maybe its a NOS boat, but hold on, NOS has been nerfed to death so that cant be it? So maybe its a drone boat? Nope, it gets no bonus for that, so thats not it is it? Maybe its a cloaked recon ship for work in dangerous space? Nope, too slow, no bonus's (except the ability to fit a covert cloak, well as the cruiser eqivilent it would be stupid not to be able to fit it wouldnt it?), easily caught. At least a frig covert opos can be used as a prober, the Pilgrim cant even do that. It cant be a cyno field generator anymore because the afore mentioned nos nerf has stopped its ability to duel rep so an ordinary frigate fleet makes a meal of it. Its all well and good if the cyno is in an unoccupied system but that makes it worthless as well cos you could use any cyno trained alt for that. Nope, I think your statement is wrong, kindly go back to your desk and give me 100 lines on why you shouldnt post. Dwi Cymraig According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians. Their image as "thieves and outcasts" is misinformation.
Dianeces Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:19:00 - [70] Originally by: annoing Originally by: Mortifix Every ship has a strong point and a weak point Really? Then kindly explain what the Pilgrims strong point is? Maybe its a NOS boat, but hold on, NOS has been nerfed to death so that cant be it? So maybe its a drone boat? Nope, it gets no bonus for that, so thats not it is it? Maybe its a cloaked recon ship for work in dangerous space? Nope, too slow, no bonus's (except the ability to fit a covert cloak, well as the cruiser eqivilent it would be stupid not to be able to fit it wouldnt it?), easily caught. At least a frig covert opos can be used as a prober, the Pilgrim cant even do that. It cant be a cyno field generator anymore because the afore mentioned nos nerf has stopped its ability to duel rep so an ordinary frigate fleet makes a meal of it. Its all well and good if the cyno is in an unoccupied system but that makes it worthless as well cos you could use any cyno trained alt for that. Nope, I think your statement is wrong, kindly go back to your desk and give me 100 lines on why you shouldnt post. Leave it to the Amarr whine brigade to turn a Falcon discussion into a discussion about how terrible their ships still are.
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:20:00 - [71] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Waxau Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM hate EWar in general and are the same people who whined about damps until they were killed. Fixed. Hell I love ewar, as soon as I knew it existed I had it trained! Nothing better than locking someone down and solo beating the crap out of them. Pretty sure most of the folk in this thread in favour of ecm nerf are ****ed cos whatever ewar they trained is nerfed in comparison to ecm. Fixed.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:21:00 - [72] Edited by: welsh wizard on 23/03/2008 16:22:25 ECCM has a considerable effect. Raven without ECCM = 60% chance to be jammed by racial. Raven with lowslot ECCM = 40% chance to be jammed by racial. Raven with midslot ECCM = 30% chance to be jammed by racial. If your entire gang is fitted with ECCM the cumulative effect of any opposing ECM ships is reduced hugely. You can also kill the ECM first and bring your own ! Caldari ewar is very powerful because its utter rubbish at anything else and has no solo application what so ever. The other races don't suffer from this so Caldari ewar is stronger as a result. they're purely gang ships which means you either counter them with your own gang or bring your own ECM & ECCM. --------------- you all smell!
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:25:00 - [73] Originally by: welsh wizard You can also kill the ECM first and bring your own ! WHAT!?!?!!? How dare you! This is not the place for rational propositions! Boink!
Xequecal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:52:00 - [74] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Waxau Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM hate EWar in general and are the same people who whined about damps until they were killed. Fixed. Dampeners were a million times worse than ECM. ECM ships generally need to fit 6-8 mods to do their ECM job. They can't do any DPS and they're generally really slow and heavy Caldai ships. The jamming is not guaranteed, and there's a reasonably effective counter. With damps, ANYONE could fit 3 damps on ANYTHING and lock you out of targeting anything permanently, guaranteed. There was no counter at all, you could fit four sensor boosters and you'd still be jammed below 20km in a battleship, let alone a cruiser. Getting close to the damping ship didn't help either because your scan res was so low you'd have a 3 minute locking time.
Elles D Natural Selection Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.23 16:59:00 - [75] *** *** whine whine Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:01:00 - [76] Originally by: annoing Originally by: Mortifix Every ship has a strong point and a weak point Really? Then kindly explain what the Pilgrims strong point is? Maybe its a NOS boat, but hold on, NOS has been nerfed to death so that cant be it? So maybe its a drone boat? Nope, it gets no bonus for that, so thats not it is it? Maybe its a cloaked recon ship for work in dangerous space? Nope, too slow, no bonus's (except the ability to fit a covert cloak, well as the cruiser eqivilent it would be stupid not to be able to fit it wouldnt it?), easily caught. At least a frig covert opos can be used as a prober, the Pilgrim cant even do that. It cant be a cyno field generator anymore because the afore mentioned nos nerf has stopped its ability to duel rep so an ordinary frigate fleet makes a meal of it. Its all well and good if the cyno is in an unoccupied system but that makes it worthless as well cos you could use any cyno trained alt for that. Nope, I think your statement is wrong, kindly go back to your desk and give me 100 lines on why you shouldnt post. On the frig fleet note. In testing it takes exactly 4 assault frigs to ensure my pilgrims doom.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:12:00 - [77] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Waxau Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM hate EWar in general and are the same people who whined about damps until they were killed. Fixed. Dampeners were a million times worse than ECM. ECM ships generally need to fit 6-8 mods to do their ECM job. They can't do any DPS and they're generally really slow and heavy Caldai ships. The jamming is not guaranteed, and there's a reasonably effective counter. With damps, ANYONE could fit 3 damps on ANYTHING and lock you out of targeting anything permanently, guaranteed. There was no counter at all, you could fit four sensor boosters and you'd still be jammed below 20km in a battleship, let alone a cruiser. Getting close to the damping ship didn't help either because your scan res was so low you'd have a 3 minute locking time. Very true, especially the part about damps. But with the way scripts work now, getting close would be a perfectly acceptable counter wouldn't it? I hated old school damps, I A curse being better off fitting all damps no tds = aggravating. Being damped down to nothing, and unable to even lock drones due to scan res was annoying. Not because the lachiesis was doing it: Because everyone was doing it. I say leave damps the way they are right now, and increase the bonuses on the gal recons. I also say increase - maybe even double - the effect of the target painter bonus on min recons. And while we're at it, increase the range on damps/td's/and painters so they can reliably operate from around 100-120km at best skill.
Mortifix M0NEY SH0T	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:30:00 - [78] Originally by: Chr0nosX Originally by: Mortifix Wow, you just said the same thing that the rest of these whiners have been saying. Congrats. Like EaterofChildren already stated, NO the falcon cannot perma jamm muiltple BS and HACS. I am near maxed out in my Falcon and I have never been able to perma jam 3 or so targets (other than T1 frigs or T1 cruiser maybe). YES I have had 4 or so targets all jammed at once, but there is no way I could keep them perma jammed. If there is anyone out there that think they can, PLEASE enlighten me, so i also can become an ECM god like you. As a matter of fact I do use racial jammers thank you very much. I said the Falcon can jam (while missing a few jam cycles) a few hacs OR one or two BS. Maybe try fitting racial jammers instead of multispecs.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:40:00 - [79] Originally by: Mortifix Edited by: Mortifix on 23/03/2008 17:42:04 Originally by: Chr0nosX Originally by: Mortifix Wow, you just said the same thing that the rest of these whiners have been saying. Congrats. Like EaterofChildren already stated, NO the falcon cannot perma jamm muiltple BS and HACS. I am near maxed out in my Falcon and I have never been able to perma jam 3 or so targets (other than T1 frigs or T1 cruiser maybe). YES I have had 4 or so targets all jammed at once, but there is no way I could keep them perma jammed. If there is anyone out there that think they can, PLEASE enlighten me, so i also can become an ECM god like you. As a matter of fact I do use racial jammers thank you very much. I said the Falcon can jam (while missing a few jam cycles) a few hacs OR one or two BS. Maybe try fitting racial jammers instead of multispecs. Like was stated before, caldari is supose to be the long range/ecm race. That mean that the falcon should be better at e-war than the rest. I dont know what makes people think that every type of ship is supose to be balanced for every race. EVE WAS NOT MADE TO BE THIS WAY!!!! Every ship type leans more to one race, why should e-war be any different? ECM is not all electronic warfare. ECM is one form of electronic warfare. Caldari ships should be better at ECM than others. But there is no reason in the world why ECM should be far more effective than other forms of electronic warfare. Right now ECM is exactly where it should be. Damps are not.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:52:00 - [80] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Waxau Because make no mistake - Most of the whiners you find against ECM hate EWar in general and are the same people who whined about damps until they were killed. Fixed. Dampeners were a million times worse than ECM. ECM ships generally need to fit 6-8 mods to do their ECM job. They can't do any DPS and they're generally really slow and heavy Caldai ships. The jamming is not guaranteed, and there's a reasonably effective counter. With damps, ANYONE could fit 3 damps on ANYTHING and lock you out of targeting anything permanently, guaranteed. There was no counter at all, you could fit four sensor boosters and you'd still be jammed below 20km in a battleship, let alone a cruiser. Getting close to the damping ship didn't help either because your scan res was so low you'd have a 3 minute locking time. Whether damps were slightly overpowered or not before is a completely separate issue. If you believe they are ok at the moment then make an argument as to why. If not, then there is no point in bringing up what they used to be. But either way, I really don't think the argument could be made that the damp bonused ships were overpowered unless you think being reasonably guranteed to be able to disable the sensors of even one single ship is too much. And if you do, you might as well just call for electronic warfare to be completely removed from the game, because that's about the same thing.
Trojanman190 The Conflagration New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:57:00 - [81] The only thing overpowered about the falcon and the rook is that they can do what they do from 150km+. Even the Arazu and lach can't match that ability and the whole concept behind those ships is to cut targeting range down. ECM just works from to great a distance. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with these ships. If you want the jamming power you can't nano and you can't tank. 10 - 15 seconds of firing from an unjammed sniper battleship will drop one of them quite easily, they are the most fragile of all the recons. A ship that is completely dedicated to something, to the point where it has to fit 100% to fill its role should be extremely good at it. All of the other recons can nano out and lose none of their recon effectiveness. It also takes a special kind of pilot to fly a ship whose only tank is completely chance based and is ineffective against drones. I any nano ship you can fly straight for one of them, going for the bump and deploy drones as the rook / falcon locks you. The drones will auto agress when you get jammed and start pwning the rook / falcon. Your bump means you don't even need to scramble them and their pathetic tank means the light drones on a vagabond will kill them rather quickly. Nothing wrong with these ships except the fact they are the best choice of ewar over 150km, that role should belong to sensor damps.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 12:03:00 - [82] Originally by: Waxau Why should the falcon all of a sudden be burdened, just because damps got nerfed? Because make no mistake - Most of the falcon abusers are ex-damp abusers and dont want to lose their fotm again after training caldari recons when damps got nerfed. Fixed. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Cautet Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 12:28:00 - [83] Edited by: Cautet on 24/03/2008 12:33:27 No such thing as perma jam. To jam with a falcon from 200km if you have all level 5 skills, including targeting range skills and optimal range skills for ecm, you will use a sensor booster II with a range script, plus 2 rigs to hit with ecm inside optimal. The ship will have 4 racial ecm's left on a fit including 1 LSE II and a MWD (pretty standard fitting requirements for a falcon) 1 unbonused damp from an unbonsed ship will push your targeting range below 140km. Let's assume this hypethetical falcon pilot is lucky enough to have stumbled upon 4 BS of the exact same races as his ECM and they forgot to bring support, because they are*****y, and he has setup in advance of this encounter a 200km safespot, and that these opponents haven't setup any ss near to his ss. And of course none of these battleships is a Scorpion, and none wanted to fit an ECCM despite their fear of falcons. Here is what could happen: BS1: Rokh vs Caldari racial ECM max skills: Sensor str 24 vs ECM str 14. Chance to jam = 58% BS2: another Rokh vs etc 58% BS3: Apoc: 70% bs4: Mega: 67% Chance to jam all 4 BS ONCE ONLY: 15.7% Chance to jam all 4 BS 2 times in a row 2.4% SO, even without using any particular tactics chances are he is locked and dead from at least one of these BS pretty quickly, or most likely he warps away.
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.24 12:40:00 - [84] Originally by: annoing Originally by: Mortifix Every ship has a strong point and a weak point Really? Then kindly explain what the Pilgrims strong point is? Maybe its a NOS boat, but hold on, NOS has been nerfed to death so that cant be it? So maybe its a drone boat? Nope, it gets no bonus for that, so thats not it is it? Maybe its a cloaked recon ship for work in dangerous space? Nope, too slow, no bonus's (except the ability to fit a covert cloak, well as the cruiser eqivilent it would be stupid not to be able to fit it wouldnt it?), easily caught. At least a frig covert opos can be used as a prober, the Pilgrim cant even do that. It cant be a cyno field generator anymore because the afore mentioned nos nerf has stopped its ability to duel rep so an ordinary frigate fleet makes a meal of it. Its all well and good if the cyno is in an unoccupied system but that makes it worthless as well cos you could use any cyno trained alt for that. Nope, I think your statement is wrong, kindly go back to your desk and give me 100 lines on why you shouldnt post. No, you are the one that should stop posting at all. 1. This isnt a amarr whine thread, go make your own and stop ***** derailing this thread. 2. Nos isnt useless anymore, its balanced. 3. If your using a cyno alt instead of your pilgrim, its your own choice so dont whine about that either. 4. The pilgrim has a bonus to drone damage/hp, so yes its a drone boat. 5. It can fit a covops cloak, so you dont have to worry about speed etc if your using it as transport. 6. Any force recon can be popped during opening a cyno, and that tank arguement you have fails because you can just fit dual rep+injector, something ships like the caldari and minnie force recons cant without gimping there ewar capability. Sig Originally by:** Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
arbalesttom Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.24 12:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Waxau Why should the falcon all of a sudden be burdened, just because damps got nerfed? Because make no mistake - Most of the falcon abusers are ex-damp abusers and dont want to lose their fotm again after training caldari recons when damps got nerfed. Fixed. I so agree with you lyria. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:02:00 - [86] ECM is by far the most powerfull ew form in this game. It's like an magic winbutton to almost any situation. If you cant handle something bring ECM with you, if you still cant handle it just bring more ECM. Other EW forms are a joke. Seriously why using for example TD's if you can completely disable the whole ship by using ECM? After 5 years of game, we have 1 winbutton ew form and 3 joke ew's (tp,damp,td), which are only usefull in some situations. I would like to see a little bit more different ew forms and not just one pwn-everything-spell. -- Zuba
Niffetin Omni Research	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:08:00 - [87] Originally by: DeadDuck Usually a ECCM mod helps a bit ... A single Blackbird can keep 2 ECCM fitted Battleships permajammed.. --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive
SoftRevolution Complicity.	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:14:00 - [88] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 23/03/2008 16:22:25 ECCM has a considerable effect. Raven without ECCM = 60% chance to be jammed by racial. Raven with lowslot ECCM = 40% chance to be jammed by racial. Raven with midslot ECCM = 30% chance to be jammed by racial. If your entire gang is fitted with ECCM the cumulative effect of any opposing ECM ships is reduced hugely. You can also kill the ECM first and bring your own ! Caldari ewar is very powerful because its utter rubbish at anything else and has no solo application what so ever. The other races don't suffer from this so Caldari ewar is stronger as a result. they're purely gang ships which means you either counter them with your own gang or bring your own ECM & ECCM. Oh there we go. I was wondering about that but too lazy to do the maths. 30% chance to be jammed? Gosh. Actually I make it less than 60% chance to jam a Raven so that's probably a little lower. That means to permajam one ship with an ECCM module requires three or four of your midslots... assuming you brought that many of appropriate racial. Seems pretty fair. Probably not so fair if you're in that one ship but there you go. Friends > ECM. Sounds like RSDs need to work better on dedicated platforms is all. EVE RELATED CONTENT
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:30:00 - [89] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 14:30:14 Many are missing the point because they got their alt so close to finishing up the falcon training: The point is there is no other ship that simply uncloaks and totally skews the balance of a fight. It simply appears and totally turns the tide of battles. There is no other recon that comes close doing this. You can calculate or moan all you like, the truth is: It is annoying as hell. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Cerui Tarshiel Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:33:00 - [90] begin of angry rant Wah Wah Wah Most of this is something I've seen since I started using the falcon in august 2007. ECM is overpowered, ecm sucks blablabla. Heard it all before and again, and again, and again. First to address the whole overpowered thing. Yes, the falcon shouldn't have been boosted to 20%, 15% would've been enough (and that's comming from someone that never flies the rook, even before the falcon boost). And yes, damps were nerfed way too much to be useful even on a dedicated damp ship (which in itself is a problem with the damps and not ecm). And yes, the falcon has the potential to turn small to medium size fights the way few other ships by themselves can. This however is offset by the fact it's got no self defence except for chance based ewar (which is terribly chance based, I've jammed a nidhoggur for 4 consecutive cycles with a gallente jammer and on the other hand failed 3 consecutive cycles on a drake with 2 caldari jammers). And honestly, 2 launchers and a gun ain't going to save your paperthin ass when someone comes around to pound your falcon into spacedust. And no, 2 launchers and a gun aint something I call real weapons, you have the damage output of a wet paper towel, those highslots are better used to assist your gang (probe launcher, salvager, remote reppers for post battle repairs, cyno and so on). I've been in combat with very varied corps/alliances and they can be basicly split into two groups (and I'm not talking about ganks here, i'm talking about similar sized gangs). Group A just sits there, jammed and whines about it, group b has ecm/ewar of their own and continually try to disrupt my efforts at jamming by either counterjamming/ewar or harassing me with inties/nanohacs and force me to warp off. /end of angry rant Falcons/Rooks and to a lesser degree the Kitsune are after all specialized ships and thus should require some degree of specialized measures to deal with so I'm more of the thought that eccm should be reviewed to be strengthened (than ecm being nerfed) because at the moment one eccm doesn't really work all that well against a falcon/rook/kitsune using racials on you. There should be a way to counter ecm more effectively without giving up multiple slots to do so.
Ayanami Nova NEW DAWN CO INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:36:00 - [91] The main problem with the falcon as i see it is that it makes the rook utterly redundant. Neither ship is big on DPS and since they operate at range then there is no advantage to choosing a rook. Both ships have equal ECM bonus so there is no advantage to flying the rook. Both ships are equally slow and paper thin. The falcon can cloak, warp cloaked, get into a tactical position without advertising its presence, align and then (when the time is right) uncloak and ECM around 4 targets with great effiency. The rook has the same ecm ability but sends a constant message to enemies that "i am here, i have ECM, make me primary!" There is zero reason to choose a rook over a falcon, I fly a falcon and it is too powerful. reduce its range or reduce its ECM bonus to 10% or 15%. The rook should be better at its specialised ECM role.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:37:00 - [92] Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel This however is offset by the fact it's got no self defence except for chance based ewar Yeah, because its not safe enough to sit at 150km distance? Tbh Id have no problems in nerfing falcons range but giving it more defense inline with other recons. Thats what youre driving at, isnt it? That its ok that we could nerf ecm down to the state of the other ew forms just as long as falcon tanks as good as they do (wich is not much fyi). Sure Im up for this change but I know all the falcon pilots are not because this excuse is a lie. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:38:00 - [93] Originally by: Ayanami Nova There is zero reason to choose a rook over a falcon, I fly a falcon and it is too powerful. reduce its range or reduce its ECM bonus to 10% or 15%. The rook should be better at its specialised ECM role. This is a universal problem for all recons (except pilgrim vs curse), the cloaking ones simply are better. Cloaking recons need a serious nerf and/or combat recons need a serious dps buff. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Cerui Tarshiel Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:44:00 - [94] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel This however is offset by the fact it's got no self defence except for chance based ewar Yeah, because its not safe enough to sit at 150km distance? Tbh Id have no problems in nerfing falcons range but giving it more defense inline with other recons. Thats what youre driving at, isnt it? That its ok that we could nerf ecm down to the state of the other ew forms just as long as falcon tanks as good as they do (wich is not much fyi). Sure Im up for this change but I know all the falcon pilots are not because this excuse is a lie. How is it a lie? you can't nano the thing up (like the rapier and to the lesser degree the arazu), adding a lse reduces the number of jammers, nor can you plate it like the pilgrim without sacrificing signal distortion amplifier. As for buffin it, short of adding dronebay (which I don't see happening) it would do nothing really. It's fine as it is imo, paperthin but powerful. As for sitting at 150 km being safe? not really, tri and several other laugh at 150km being safe for falcons (even just having a inty buzzing around you, however easy they are to jam is unsettling). Besides you are away from the rest of the gang so if things so downhill (and they do so very very fast if things go wrong) they won't have chance to bail you out.
Cerui Tarshiel Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:48:00 - [95] Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 24/03/2008 14:48:15 Originally by: Ayanami Nova The main problem with the falcon as i see it is that it makes the rook utterly redundant. Neither ship is big on DPS and since they operate at range then there is no advantage to choosing a rook. Both ships have equal ECM bonus so there is no advantage to flying the rook. Both ships are equally slow and paper thin. The falcon can cloak, warp cloaked, get into a tactical position without advertising its presence, align and then (when the time is right) uncloak and ECM around 4 targets with great effiency. The rook has the same ecm ability but sends a constant message to enemies that "i am here, i have ECM, make me primary!" There is zero reason to choose a rook over a falcon, I fly a falcon and it is too powerful. reduce its range or reduce its ECM bonus to 10% or 15%. The rook should be better at its specialised ECM role. I actually agree that there's no reason to choose the rook over the falcon (said so myself when the change was announced) and I agree with reducing the falcons jam strength to 15% (or 12,5% to make the whine brigade happy). Perhaps buff the rook by adding a medslot and changing it's rof bonus to a good precision bonus/missile explosion velocity bonus or something of that sort to give it a better chance against tacklers (just throwing out ideas, haven't done any calculations)
Brodde Dim Unseen University Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:52:00 - [96] I thought ECM was too powerfull before the boost :P But imho the Falcon is the only defensive fleet support ship that works atm. It is not too strong, all the others are too weak. No other ship can support their fleet (and not add to the dps) without being killed in the first seconds of battle. What we need now is something to defend against the over use of long range ECM. An easy counter would be to boost the gallente recons. Give them an effective range atleast on par with the falcon. And maybe make them harder to jam. Let them force the falcons come closer so you can kill them.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:53:00 - [97] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 14:53:35 Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel As for sitting at 150 km being safe? not really, tri and several other laugh at 150km being safe for falcons (even just having a inty buzzing around you, however easy they are to jam is unsettling). Besides you are away from the rest of the gang so if things so downhill (and they do so very very fast if things go wrong) they won't have chance to bail you out. Not everyone is in a 50-150 man fleet with snipers reaching out to those ranges. There is something called small gang and solo pvp. Something a few of us like to defend and keep alive. No one has any issues with falcons being effective in larger fleet warfare. They are fine there because both sides will have em. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Cerui Tarshiel Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.24 15:02:00 - [98] Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 24/03/2008 15:03:56 Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 24/03/2008 15:03:39 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 14:53:35 Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel As for sitting at 150 km being safe? not really, tri and several other laugh at 150km being safe for falcons (even just having a inty buzzing around you, however easy they are to jam is unsettling). Besides you are away from the rest of the gang so if things so downhill (and they do so very very fast if things go wrong) they won't have chance to bail you out. Not everyone is in a 50-150 man fleet with snipers reaching out to those ranges. There is something called small gang and solo pvp. Something a few of us like to defend and keep alive. No one has any issues with falcons being effective in larger fleet warfare. They are fine there because both sides will have em. Did I ever say snipers? if I meant snipers I wouldn't have mentioned tri because most alliances that actively pvp can field at least some kindof a sniper bs fleet. And the only largish engagement I've actually been in was 40 of us vs 50 tri with us having the snipers+support and the tri gang being nanoed (t'was great fun btw). What I meant that inties and good number of nanohacs have no problem getting out to you in very short amount of time and either force you off or kill you. As for solo shrug been on the recciving end of ecm myself while soloing and it's just something you have to deal with while flying solo.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 15:27:00 - [99] Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Did I ever say snipers? if I meant snipers I wouldn't have mentioned tri because most alliances that actively pvp can field at least some kindof a sniper bs fleet. And the only largish engagement I've actually been in was 40 of us vs 50 tri with us having the snipers+support and the tri gang being nanoed (t'was great fun btw). What I meant that inties and good number of nanohacs have no problem getting out to you in very short amount of time and either force you off or kill you. As for solo shrug been on the recciving end of ecm myself while soloing and it's just something you have to deal with while flying solo. But youre still talking about big fleets. What about the small gang warfare. Like a BC + a BS + an inty + a cruiser + a hac kinda thing? Where is the love? Nerf the lameness. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.24 15:45:00 - [100] Edited by: Trevor Warps on 24/03/2008 15:47:18 To all the fanboys preaching over the ECM nerf == Damp nerf Thats a joke. This is what happened : -ECM got nerfed, some ECM ships got boosted, mods been introduced to boost ecm strenght ... Result, ECM as good or stronger than before on ECM boats. -Damps got nerfed. Period. See ? Edit : 2 rigs can help ECM, 1 can help damps.
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2008.03.24 15:51:00 - [101] Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 24/03/2008 15:52:27 I guess my biggest peave about the falcon is how much easier it can get away then the other recons(if its operating the way a proper falcon pilot would, at 150km+), cause I have a feeling this has a lot to do with why the others are used less. I remember loving the curse because nanoe'd it was very effective and could almost always escape, now not so much. The lachesis/arazu, well, they never have really had the oppurtunity. The huginn and rapier did and still do have the ability to run, but likewise you see them a lot. The falcon has enormous range, and if anything ventures out to go get it, it will more than likely be able to get away by jamming the offender. Arazu/lachesis can't do that, curse/pilgrim can't do that, huginn/rapier have a chance, but if the ceptor manages to get to close and its gonna be very hard pressed to get away before it gets raped cause it can't sit away from the fight and still be effective(though a good huginn/rapier pilot can clear the field of ceptors fairly quickly, heavy tackler and they're screwed). Falcon's have absolutely no trouble jamming ceptors, the only ships remotely capable of getting to them in a reasonable manner, so they can very easily run off and come back. People like to fly ships they aren't going to lose, I know more than likely I'm gonna lose a gallente recon; amarr recon, eh what's the point? Minmatar recon are good but there's a high probability you're gonna lose it; caldari recon, oh what the hell, I'd be invulnerable. This I think is the strongest point of imbalance, if you gave all the other ships this free ticket to operate, you might see them more, regardless of the effect of their ewar. Yes, there are ways to kill the falcon out at range, I've double teamed one in a claw with a scorp before, but what does it take to kill a lachesis? All but that one ship that's damped to hell just target and fire, and it crumbles. If it spreads its damps it isn't doing ****. And I can't remember the last time I've seen a curse/pilgrim anyways, so meh.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:16:00 - [102] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/03/2008 16:21:33 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This is a universal problem for all recons (except pilgrim vs curse), the cloaking ones simply are better. Cloaking recons need a serious nerf and/or combat recons need a serious dps buff. Buff the combat recons (particularly the actual combat capable ones), and what's the point of HACs? I mean, you've already got more reasons to be scared of a Huggin then a Vagabond, more worried about the Curse then the Zealot/Sacriledge. Rooks are just scary because of their jamming power. Lachersis is a bit meh, but that's more due to the sorry state of damps, and it's got a much better chance at killing a lot of ships compared to a, for instance, Diemost. It's a sad state of affairs that real 'solo' PvP-ers have falcon alts And, yes, the cloaking recons are simply better then the non-cloaking recons for all concieveable situations. Mainly because (except the Pilgrim) inherit range bonuses from the combat varieties. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Cpt Branko It's a sad state of affairs that real 'solo' PvP-ers have falcon alts And, yes, the cloaking recons are simply better then the non-cloaking recons for all concieveable situations. Mainly because (except the Pilgrim) inherit range bonuses from the combat varieties. Hope youre not implying that Im using a falcon in my movies, Im not. (Still got months to go for a falcon alt sadly) I agree that combat recons cant get a huge boost because they would become hacs. I think all combat recons are where they should be but there needs to be something done to all the cloaking force recons. They all need a nerf. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:34:00 - [104] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel This however is offset by the fact it's got no self defence except for chance based ewar Yeah, because its not safe enough to sit at 150km distance? If you don't play this game well enough to deal with a range advantage then thats your problem, not the ships. ECM is easily dealt with if you know how. It's been like that since day 1 in 2003. Problem is theres a very fine line between being pointless and being overpowered with ECM. If they nerf it again you better bloody well believe that the Rook/Falcons combat application should be increased inline with the other 3 races. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:38:00 - [105] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Ayanami Nova There is zero reason to choose a rook over a falcon, I fly a falcon and it is too powerful. reduce its range or reduce its ECM bonus to 10% or 15%. The rook should be better at its specialised ECM role. This is a universal problem for all recons (except pilgrim vs curse), the cloaking ones simply are better. Cloaking recons need a serious nerf and/or combat recons need a serious dps buff. Also codswallop, Huginn is infinitely better in a close range fight, locks faster, tanks better and does a hell of alot more damage. Curse is a fantastic ship but we already know you've made your bias little mind up on that one don't we? Pilgrim needs a nos/neut range boost. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:39:00 - [106] Originally by: welsh wizard If you don't play this game well enough to deal with a range advantage then thats your problem, not the ships. ECM is easily dealt with if you know how Dont try the "you suck but Im not gonna tell you why" trick. No, ecm is not easily dealt with if you know how. Dont lie. Originally by: welsh wizard If they nerf it again you better bloody well believe that the Rook/Falcons combat application should be increased inline with the other 3 races I see no problem with this. The problem is mostly for you when you realize that the combat application of the other recons is very poor and you'll pray to get your old 150km recon back. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Corstaad Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:40:00 - [107] Every PvP game I've played there is the same whines. People get fussy if someone else can do something they can't or are not willing to do. Everyone should adapt to them and we're all stupid. When you get done with this thread and start a nano thread please list yourself as a carebear or forumwhhore.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:43:00 - [108] Originally by: welsh wizard Also codswallop, Huginn is infinitely better in a close range fight, locks faster, tanks better and does a hell of alot more damage No its not, rapier is better overall and rapiers is what you see everywhere. People flying huginns are just the recon pilots that are bored and want to pewpew and do more dps just for the heck of it. Originally by: welsh wizard Curse is a fantastic ship but we already know you've made your bias little mind up on that one don't we? Curses die to alot of ships. Its not even half as good as people claim. You nano it? No TDs? You die to injected zealots and harbingers. You dont nano it? You die to everything bigger then a cruiser. No curse aint good. It has limited uses in gangs. For solo both amarr hacs outperform it by large margins. Originally by: welsh wizard Pilgrim needs a nos/neut range boost. It needs something, yes. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:45:00 - [109] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 16:44:58 Originally by: Corstaad Every PvP game I've played there is the same whines. People get fussy if someone else can do something they can't or are not willing to do. Everyone should adapt to them and we're all stupid. When you get done with this thread and start a nano thread please list yourself as a carebear or forumwhhore. Youre claiming that ALL whines in ALL games are not valid? Cool, because with that logic there wouldnt be any game balance patches. Maybe some people on the forums would rather like an even playground for all choices in the game. Instead you seem to dispise those people and cheer for fotm chasers. I find that odd. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:45:00 - [110] Like I say you won't see reason so... --------------- you all smell!
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Methem The falcon is designed to remove 2-3 dps ships from a fight. no single cruiser should be able to do that. no other recon can do this by any means. also recons should be by far more vulnerable to their own ew. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Malbolge Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.24 16:58:00 - [112] Originally by: Dexton Azeroth has no jammers, I suggest you move there. New eden is for people that use their head to solf problems. Warlock fears. AMG, nerf fear!!11
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 17:00:00 - [113] Originally by: Malbolge Originally by: Dexton Azeroth has no jammers, I suggest you move there. New eden is for people that use their head to solf problems. Warlock fears. AMG, nerf fear!!11 And they nerfed fear. Day will come when theyll nerf ecm on falcons. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.24 17:47:00 - [114] PIE runs an all Amarr fleet. This is the Falcon we typically face: 6x White Noise ECM, 1x MWD 3x 'Hypnos' Signal Amp 2x ECM rigs We find a Typhoon/Domi outside the station. One Geddon undocks and draws aggro. Hostile returns fire, two more Geddons and a Zealot undock too to help. Falcon uncloaks at 150km. Two of the Geddon's have 1x ECCM fitted (standard policy at that time) one has not. Zealot has (obviously) no ECCM, but MWD/web/scram. Jam strength is between 14-15. Geddon base sensor strength is 17. 1x Geddon without ECCM: 85% chance of jam. Including relock time, that Geddon is effectively taken out of the fight by a single jammer. 2x Geddon with ECCM: 42% to jam with a single jammer, 68% with two, 82% with three 1x Zealot: 100% chance with a single jammer Geddon's try to fight, and occasionally get a few shots in. Guns are largely disabled, remote repping assistance is large disabled. Zealot runs at the Falcon, but as soon as it comes close, one jammer takes it out permanently. Geddons are unable to concentrate enough fire to take down the Typhoon. Once one Geddon is down, its really all over. Jam odds only increase from now on. Without ECCM, one Falcon like that pretty much disables a single ship of nearly any type for each of its jammer. Obviously, when a known hostile with Falcon alt is sitting outside the station, nobody engages anymore, unless a large blob can be formed. and preferably ECCM'ed battleships. Anything else is pretty much rendered ineffective, even with ECCM fitted. ECM is not that bad, but racial ECM can be a rather annoying. Stacking your (limited) mids full of otherwise useless ECCM's for the off chance that a Falcon is out there waiting is also rather annoying. But if we don't, we're pretty much ****** once a single Falcon does turn up. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Drinian Cole The Knights of the New Republic Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.03.24 17:58:00 - [115] falcon is fine, its just more attractive than the others, and that's why its annoyingly common. The other recons should get a boost to compensate. Perhaps the falcon could use more differentiation from the rook. That's the only change I would make. The Arazu is the only other ship who's function is comparable to the falcon, and I would say is the falcons direct competition in a gang. Dampeners are supposed to always damage targetting ability, ECM has a chance to completely remove it, or do nothing at all. That seems balanced to me. But the ships that do it are far from balanced. Arazu was hit hard by damp nerf. The ability to throw a point from around 50km is cool, but severely watered down when you look at the fact that ceptors can now do it from 30km, and there's also dictors & HIC's to contend with. Damps don't have the range to take down snipers effectively, they have to get close to be able to do it. Once ships get under the new lock range you're screwed, and with speed being what it is, lots of ships can get under that range, through lots of methods. Lock time damps can buy you a few seconds, and that can help, especially if you're in a gang with ECM ships for example. But that isn't enough to balance a ship around. An arazu has two tasks, both of which have a ship that can do them better. Ceptors are more survivable and cheaper, falcons are better at hindering targetting. An arazu can poorly substitute for, but not replace both. While they aren't useless, there seems to be little reason to have one. Ceptor pilots have never been hard to find, and falcon ones are increasingly easy. As an arazu pilot I am now training for a Curse, cause I don't like chance based warfare, so I would rather stay away from the falcon. I would consider coming back to the arazu if one of these three were to happen: a) damp ranges were increased a lot. Then they would be able to effectively fight falcons and snipers, and have a more useful role. b) they were allowed to use both damp bonus' again; at current strength. Then they could protect themselves once things got under their damped lock range. c) the strength of their damps was increased. I guess this ended up more about the arazu then the falcon. My apologies. Point is: Falcon=fine, arazu=subpar
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 17:59:00 - [116] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 17:59:38 Originally by: Merdaneth PIE runs an all Amarr fleet. This is the Falcon we typically face: 6x White Noise ECM, 1x MWD 3x 'Hypnos' Signal Amp 2x ECM rigs We find a Typhoon/Domi outside the station. One Geddon undocks and draws aggro. Hostile returns fire, two more Geddons and a Zealot undock too to help. Falcon uncloaks at 150km. Two of the Geddon's have 1x ECCM fitted (standard policy at that time) one has not. Zealot has (obviously) no ECCM, but MWD/web/scram. Jam strength is between 14-15. Geddon base sensor strength is 17. 1x Geddon without ECCM: 85% chance of jam. Including relock time, that Geddon is effectively taken out of the fight by a single jammer. 2x Geddon with ECCM: 42% to jam with a single jammer, 68% with two, 82% with three 1x Zealot: 100% chance with a single jammer Geddon's try to fight, and occasionally get a few shots in. Guns are largely disabled, remote repping assistance is large disabled. Zealot runs at the Falcon, but as soon as it comes close, one jammer takes it out permanently. Geddons are unable to concentrate enough fire to take down the Typhoon. Once one Geddon is down, its really all over. Jam odds only increase from now on. Without ECCM, one Falcon like that pretty much disables a single ship of nearly any type for each of its jammer. Obviously, when a known hostile with Falcon alt is sitting outside the station, nobody engages anymore, unless a large blob can be formed. and preferably ECCM'ed battleships. Anything else is pretty much rendered ineffective, even with ECCM fitted. ECM is not that bad, but racial ECM can be a rather annoying. Stacking your (limited) mids full of otherwise useless ECCM's for the off chance that a Falcon is out there waiting is also rather annoying. But if we don't, we're pretty much ****** once a single Falcon does turn up. This is the problem. Small gang warfare dies. But thats not what the falcon fanbois would like you to belive. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:17:00 - [117] All these falcon whines are interesting, since the falcon jams as well as the rook did before, yet that almost never attracted any whines until the RSD's were (over)nerfed. So is this just a case of people whining about whatever ewar happens to be best, because they don't want to break out of their dps vs tank mold? Perhaps. Quote: Its one aspect of eve where i cant bear, be nice if jamming was taken out completly. See? People dont want to have to think about ewar. They just want to load up the biggest guns and then f1-f8. Particularly awesome is the idea that a single ECCM should render you more or less nullify an entire dedicated jamming ship, with lows and mids and rig slots all dedicated to jamming. I'd love to see that rationale extended to tanks. Please give me a way to nullify an armageddons dps with 2 med slots only. If you don't have anything that can kill a falcon 150m away, your gang composition is pretty bad. Anything shooting fof missiles could be bad for it. Put a drone boat on it. Snipe it. It's an expensive flying coffin that can be blown out of the sky the instant it fails a jam cycle.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:18:00 - [118] Originally by: Ulstan All these falcon whines are interesting, since the falcon jams as well as the rook did before, yet that almost never attracted any whines until the RSD's were (over)nerfed. Thats because rook doesnt have a cov ops cloak. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:20:00 - [119] Edited by: Ulstan on 24/03/2008 18:23:16 Also, ECM should be the best e war because caldari are the long range hi tech suck at solo shine in gang race. However, we need more effective ewar, not less. The recent boost to tracking disruptors to affect falloff was good. Now we need to boost the gallente recons to make them slightly stronger. Unlike a falcon or rook, the gallente recons can be powerful solo ships, so they shouldn't have quite the same 'I can possibly jam multiple people' power, but they need to be more potent than they are now. Quote: no other recon can do this by any means. No other recons are incapable of soloing, nor do they give up their tank in order to fit their e-war. Caldari ECM boats are a lot more focused on ECM than the other recons are. So, they should be better at it. They're the hands down worst for soloing, in consequence.
Perfect Diamond Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:22:00 - [120] Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 24/03/2008 18:23:01 Okay, this is my two cents The Combat Recon Ship's discription says that it's suppose to be "anti-support support." The Force Recon are suppose to be less effective version of the Combat Recon's but the Falcon is effectively better then the Rook. All the races fit this role except for Caldari. Nos and Neuts kill support ships cap, taking the support out of the game. Damps take long range support out by making them unable to target long distances. Webs are good for taking out interceptors which support the main gang by holding down targets. The Gallente can perma-jam ANYTHING without discretion. At least the amarr recon ships tracking disruption only works on turrets, but of course it has about half the range of the Caldari Recons. Amarr is the tank OR gank race. Not the tank and gank race.
Galen Salkor Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:25:00 - [121] When I first joined the game 5 years ago, one of the things that always bugged was ECM. It sounded cool but was just so terrible in that if you happen upon a ship that you didn't have the right racial type for, you were screwed. Multispecs didn't really help a whole lot because of how many you'd need to fit for it to work and how they sucked your cap dry. Damps were way more effective because there was no racial type. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I got into ECM in a more dedicated fashion but the whole racial ECM jammer still bugs me. One thing going for the Falcon (I'm also in the camp that doesn't like that the Falcon matches the ECM bonus of the Rook, btw) that I like was that I could cloak from a fair distance and direct a battle while throwing in some ECM into it so I am not only sitting around giving orders. But I had a crazy thought recently. Now this might be a stupid idea but why not just remove racial sensor strengths and so by that same token, removing racial jammers? Would anyone feel that totally unbalanced? The jam strength on multispecs is okay on an ECM specialized ship, though many they'd need some tweaking. I also always favored Caldari ECM only because of how it only takes one module to potentially remove someone from a fight and allowing a small gang to take on a bigger one. This is part of what ECM is. Btw, I also do what Merdaneth mentioned and totally kit out the Falcon with ecm enhancing mods for 14.6 strength. However, this all does give one race a ECM strong advange and makes other electronic warfare pointless. So at the same time, why not boost the sensor dampening effectiveness of the maulus & celestis hull and the weapon disruption of the crucifer & arbitrator hull? Not to mention throwing something onto the tracking disruptors to affect missiles (possibly increase RoF of missiles or its target navigation effectiveness or something) ? It'd be nice to have an increase for those other ship types to make their ECM a bit more powerful and in-line with Caldari so their targets would be severely hampered with one module (maybe somehow increasing sensor dampener's and tracking disruptor's stacking nerf through the scripts) although targets can potentially fight back by getting closer, using drones, etc. I'd like to see more propulsion jamming goodness on Minmatar ships but like all minmatar, we are used to getting the shaft.
xxxak O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:26:00 - [122] CRY CRY CRY... boo hoo .. The Falcon/Rook is the ONE great PvP ship that Caldari get. Yes, it is very powerful, but so is the Vagabond, the Huginn, Ishtar, Sac, etc etc. Get over it. Yes, ECM ships can cause problems, but frankly so can any HAC or Recon. That is their purpose!
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:34:00 - [123] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 18:33:51 Originally by: xxxak Yes, ECM ships can cause problems, but frankly so can any HAC or Recon. No they cant. Not in the same way. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:34:00 - [124] Originally by: Merdaneth PIE runs an all Amarr fleet. This is the Falcon we typically face: 6x White Noise ECM, 1x MWD 3x 'Hypnos' Signal Amp 2x ECM rigs We find a Typhoon/Domi outside the station. One Geddon undocks and draws aggro. Hostile returns fire, two more Geddons and a Zealot undock too to help. Falcon uncloaks at 150km. Two of the Geddon's have 1x ECCM fitted (standard policy at that time) one has not. Zealot has (obviously) no ECCM, but MWD/web/scram. Jam strength is between 14-15. Geddon base sensor strength is 17. 1x Geddon without ECCM: 85% chance of jam. Including relock time, that Geddon is effectively taken out of the fight by a single jammer. 2x Geddon with ECCM: 42% to jam with a single jammer, 68% with two, 82% with three 1x Zealot: 100% chance with a single jammer Geddon's try to fight, and occasionally get a few shots in. Guns are largely disabled, remote repping assistance is large disabled. Zealot runs at the Falcon, but as soon as it comes close, one jammer takes it out permanently. Geddons are unable to concentrate enough fire to take down the Typhoon. Once one Geddon is down, its really all over. Jam odds only increase from now on. Without ECCM, one Falcon like that pretty much disables a single ship of nearly any type for each of its jammer. Obviously, when a known hostile with Falcon alt is sitting outside the station, nobody engages anymore, unless a large blob can be formed. and preferably ECCM'ed battleships. Anything else is pretty much rendered ineffective, even with ECCM fitted. ECM is not that bad, but racial ECM can be a rather annoying. Stacking your (limited) mids full of otherwise useless ECCM's for the off chance that a Falcon is out there waiting is also rather annoying. But if we don't, we're pretty much ****** once a single Falcon does turn up. You had 3 geddons against a Domi and a Typhoon. Even if each had a point in one of the geddons, that still leaves one geddon free to warp to the zealot (150 km away in the top of the falcon) and release the drones. As soon as you do that the Falco is history. The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:41:00 - [125] Originally by: Etho Demerzel The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... And how are the friends of the inty gonna warp when they are tackled and involved in close combat 150km away? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
xxxak O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:44:00 - [126] Lyria, I beg to differ. A single Vaga can easily strip a 10 man gang of it's frigate support, unless the frigate pilots are flying/obeying perfectly (something that never happens in PvP). A single Huginn can ruin a small nano gang, assuming it has a few ships supporting it (few Drakes even). I have seen two Ishtars kill a battleship in 15 seconds. With almost no risk to them. A Falcon can remove the DPS of one, maybe two ships. It can't kill anything, btw. It's great at what it does, but is it hardly overpowered.
Perfect Diamond Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:46:00 - [127] Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 24/03/2008 18:46:02 ^^Take that. Amarr is the tank OR gank race. Not the tank and gank race.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 18:52:00 - [128] Originally by: xxxak A single Vaga can easily strip a 10 man gang of it's frigate support, unless the frigate pilots are flying/obeying perfectly (something that never happens in PvP). Yeah if the frig pilots are idiots. One brave inty would be able to tackle down a vaga near his friends and then its all over. Not every gang is beyond stupid you know. That is no argument. Originally by: xxxak A single Huginn can ruin a small nano gang, assuming it has a few ships supporting it (few Drakes even). Yeah a small nano gang maybe. But everything above 3-4 nano hacs will destroy the huginn before he can do anything. Been there done that. It doesnt work like that. Originally by: xxxak I have seen two Ishtars kill a battleship in 15 seconds. With almost no risk to them. I bet you havent. Originally by: xxxak A Falcon can remove the DPS of one, maybe two ships. It can't kill anything, btw. It's great at what it does, but is it hardly overpowered. Uhm, a falcon can pretty much perma jam 2 battleships. Or jam several ships if they are smaller size then a BS. Yeah it is overpowered and it will get nerfed. Youll see. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
xxxak O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 19:12:00 - [129] Originally by: xxxak A single Huginn can ruin a small nano gang, assuming it has a few ships supporting it (few Drakes even). You forget, nano gangs are very selective in what they attack. and if they see a Huginn their instantly gone. I think you just proved my point for me. If a nano gang sees a Huginn, they are gone -- either dead or running. How is that less effective than a Falcon? lol
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.24 19:18:00 - [130] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/03/2008 19:21:31 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Hope youre not implying that Im using a falcon in my movies, Im not. (Still got months to go for a falcon alt sadly) No, I wasn't (I was reffering to a number of people I face everyday). I mean, objectively, not all people have them, some people are bound to be only training them up Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I agree that combat recons cant get a huge boost because they would become hacs. I think all combat recons are where they should be but there needs to be something done to all the cloaking force recons. They all need a nerf. I'm inclined to agree. I mean, covops cloak + abilities of force recon sans DPS is pure win, and quite likely too much. If you want the ownage you get from combat recons, you should be at least visible on scanner. Tbh, I don't remember the last time I saw a Rook. Does anyone? Rapiers are only like five times more popular then Huggins, and honestly, what's the last time you saw a Lachersis? I don't remember one in ages. Well, except a noob in one a month ago who warped at a belt where we were killing some guys and got stuck in asteroids before he could escape, the poor bastard. Had he been flying a Rook, he'd probably live Also, for all practical purposes, Recons > HACs, even the non-cloaky recons. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Bilbo Bubbinz Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.24 19:24:00 - [131] I only fully read the first few posts, and scanned the rest, because it looked like flamebait nonsense imo :) Anyway, on topic. Pretty much the only comment I can agree with is the one about reducing the jam bonus to 15%/lvl. Makes sense, because the Rook wasn't intended to cloak. Perma-jamming is a theoretical concept at best, because ECM mods are chance (statistic based) where as other mods are guaranteed to affect things. (ie, if you're in a set range, a damp WILL reduce locking range by <x percent>. Granted, with several racial specifics activated on a specific ship, may give the impression you are jammed indefinately, but you haven't thought about the accumulative percentile chances. I ran some basic number crunching with a few friends last night, and we worked it out at with 3x racial jams on a battleship brings about a 92% accumulative chance of a successful jam/cycle. (its been way too long since I have had to deal with this kind of calculation so I may be a bit off) Also, ships guaranteed a jam off a single mod? Perhaps, against tech 1 frigates, (The build I fit on eft with maxed skills + rigs, gave me about a 14.92 jamming str. At a quick glance, there are a few tech 1 cruisers which have a higher base sensor str than this, so Im going to call shennanigans on this one... Although, 100% jamming on something with a lower str than your jam str perhaps, I haven't tested this yet, although I plan on doing this at some point) Slightly off topic here, why are there all of a sudden so many "nerf ECM" threads appaering, Im not seeing many "OMG THE CERB IS TEH SUXOR, NERF VAGAS, SACS!!!!!" threads. Everyone and their goldfish know that caldari are very specialised into specific areas. Missile boats in general are considered fail in pvp, at least let caldari pilots be able to contribute something to the field! :P Just my 0.02 isk: Note. Im suprised no ones been awkward enough to bring the actual statistics into this whine thread yet! :D
Labienus Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.24 19:29:00 - [132] There is nothing wrong with the falcon. My alt was max skilled with it before the buff, the buff wasnt really needed. If you are engaging people and a falcon uncloaks and jams you...bad intel.. I use my falcon on roaming gangs deep into 0.0, I hardly ever get 150km ranges...because i havnt bookmarked the entire Universe. 150km+ is when its at its PERFECT position. Most falcons i engage are at 100km. And if they are warping in at 100km...you can drop a bubble and drag it even closer! Falcon without range will die so fast its pointless it being there. Plus a falcon cant perma jam a battleship, it is IMPOSSIBLE. it can have a very HIGH chance at jamming a battleship, that is all. There are many counters... Nano ships can dictate range and travel 100/150km so fast. Dragging Falcons into dictor bubbles, mobile warp bubbles will seriously effect how well they do. Jam them back, maybe? Damps work well also...especially as you can nano the gallente recons to get in range easier.. Also you can use ECCM. Who would fly a falcon if all you can do is jam 2 people? i mean...come off it. You are using both your ecm bonus's to jam 2 people? While a Curse, Arazu, Rapiers have 2 EW bonuses?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 19:38:00 - [133] Originally by: Cpt Branko I'm inclined to agree. I mean, covops cloak + abilities of force recon sans DPS is pure win, and quite likely too much. If you want the ownage you get from combat recons, you should be at least visible on scanner. Disagree, because ewar is a part of the game. Deal with it. Quote: Tbh, I don't remember the last time I saw a Rook. Does anyone? Yesterday, 3x. I actually saw more rooks than Falcons (and it wasn't because the falcons were cloaked). The rook gets an extra mid. Quote: Rapiers are only like five times more popular then Huggins I don't know that I agree with this statement. Quote: and honestly, what's the last time you saw a Lachersis? I don't remember one in ages. Well, I haven't seen an Arazu in a similar period. Both ships were so strongly overnerfed that virtually nobody flies them anymore. Hell, you'll be more effective with a disruptor/TD lach than a damp lach. Quote: Well, except a noob in one a month ago who warped at a belt where we were killing some guys and got stuck in asteroids before he could escape, the poor bastard. Had he been flying a Rook, he'd probably live Depends if he had the skills and how many there were of you. Quote: Also, for all practical purposes, Recons > HACs, even the non-cloaky recons. This is a patently false statement. The two are parallels, neither greater than the other. Grow up and stop whining about ewar in the game. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.24 19:47:00 - [134] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/03/2008 19:48:33 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/03/2008 19:47:46 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Cpt Branko I'm inclined to agree. I mean, covops cloak + abilities of force recon sans DPS is pure win, and quite likely too much. If you want the ownage you get from combat recons, you should be at least visible on scanner. Disagree, because ewar is a part of the game. Deal with it. The issue is rather cloaking recons vs non-cloaking recons. The benefit of non-cloaking recons is too small to offset the suprise factor of covops cloak. Or, rather, the penalty of cloaking recons is too small compared to the benefit of having a covops cloak. Ignoring the Pilgrim. Which IS the point of this thread. Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: Also, for all practical purposes, Recons > HACs, even the non-cloaky recons. This is a patently false statement. The two are parallels, neither greater than the other. Grow up and stop whining about ewar in the game. Certain combat recons are quite comparable to HACs in effect when solo, and in gangs they outpreform HACs by a great deal. If combat recons were used in a merely support role (like the Rook), they'd be parallels. I see people using Curses/Huggins in 'HAC with ewar' role, though. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:14:00 - [135] Anyone running a pool on when ECM is going to be nerfed into uselessness again? --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Cautet Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:22:00 - [136] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 17:59:38 Originally by: Merdaneth PIE runs an all Amarr fleet. This is the Falcon we typically face: 6x White Noise ECM, 1x MWD 3x 'Hypnos' Signal Amp 2x ECM rigs We find a Typhoon/Domi outside the station. One Geddon undocks and draws aggro. Hostile returns fire, two more Geddons and a Zealot undock too to help. Falcon uncloaks at 150km. Two of the Geddon's have 1x ECCM fitted (standard policy at that time) one has not. Zealot has (obviously) no ECCM, but MWD/web/scram. This is the problem. Small gang warfare dies. But thats not what the falcon fanbois would like you to belive. OK, let me solve this problem for you. Move 1 km away from falcon that uncloaked 150km away from you if it has the setup posted. It's max targeting range is 150km with level 5 skills. He won't be targeting you anymore. You win. Then, use the properly fitted ships you have designed to counter this ship and single volley it. You don't even need eccm for it, easy, huh! Also, while i'm sure there are good RP reasons for an all Amarr fleet, you have to accept the drawbacks are really going to hurt your pvp by making you predicable. Please don't ask for game mechanics to be changed to overcome limitations you place on yourself. Some more ways to beat ECM ships - send a inty near to it, if inty can't deal with it warp some other ships to it as its 150km out. Get an arbritator for your amarr fleet and nano it up - send it to falcon and let its drones hurt the falcon. Get a Stealth Bomber with damps - these really annoy the hell out of falcons. Assume in advance that the enemy may bring ewar and prepare and plan for it. Start blaming yourselves more and ships less. On the damps thing - I wouldn't mind damps having a better optimal range on the galenti recons. I'm training up for them anyway as to be honest having an unexpected ship is often much better than one which is suposedly unbalanced.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:32:00 - [137] Originally by: Cautet Please don't ask for game mechanics to be changed to overcome limitations you place on yourself. Oh dont worry about me, Im training a falcon alt as we speak. 3-4 weeks left now. Im not the one thats going to get hurt by this imbalance. Its just boring and lame, it is... -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:44:00 - [138] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... And how are the friends of the inty gonna warp when they are tackled and involved in close combat 150km away? Because ALL of the inty friends will be tackled right? You often tackle ALL enemy ships in the opposing gang at once right? And even if that was true, you can't have a cloaked ship waiting for Falcon, can you? Like god forbid me a Pilgrim. A pilgrim would kill a falcon so fast it wouldn't even be funny... Truth is, there are a so many counters to ECM ships it is nothing even funny. These are just 2 simple examples. All you need is to be able to use your brain, and make the conditions favorable to you, which unfortunately whiners are uncapable of doing... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Fehz Hard Corp Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:48:00 - [139] I almost read this entire thread.. Not once have I heard anyone say anything about FOF missiles.. but maybe since I'm a falcon pilot I should be quiet.. And has anyone here noticed the sensor strength recons get? It's nuts compared to everything else. It's tough to jam other recons. And let's see... Caldari have 2 ships that can choose their targets.. falcons and crows.. Everyone else can just pick a ship and nano it up. I've seen people try to nano caldari ships.. that's some funny stuff..
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:53:00 - [140] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... And how are the friends of the inty gonna warp when they are tackled and involved in close combat 150km away? Because ALL of the inty friends will be tackled right? You often tackle ALL enemy ships in the opposing gang at once right? And even if that was true, you can't have a cloaked ship waiting for Falcon, can you? Like god forbid me a Pilgrim. A pilgrim would kill a falcon so fast it wouldn't even be funny... Truth is, there are a so many counters to ECM ships it is nothing even funny. These are just 2 simple examples. All you need is to be able to use your brain, and make the conditions favorable to you, which unfortunately whiners are uncapable of doing... Oh so youll split your group in half? Leave 2 tackled ships behind and warp 2-3 to the falcon? Sorry but youre clueless. It doesnt work. Before you pull that off the falcon will warp off or cloak. Or even worse he'll warp off right before those 2-3 ships come out of warp and your gang is split in two. The 2 ships left behind get ganked while your inty now flies to the other direction for another warp in point to your friends that are dying. Before you get there they are dead and youre outnumbered and falcon comes back at 150km and does the same again. It does not work and youre just theory-crafting and its no better then the people living in eft and on sisi that barely know what pvp is on tranq. Please long on tranquility before you present solutions like this. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.03.24 20:59:00 - [141] Originally by: xxxak CRY CRY CRY... boo hoo .. The Falcon/Rook is the ONE great PvP ship that Caldari get. Yes, it is very powerful, but so is the Vagabond, the Huginn, Ishtar, Sac, etc etc. Get over it. Yes, ECM ships can cause problems, but frankly so can any HAC or Recon. That is their purpose! yes a vagabond is as powerful as a falcon (N00B). you sir are a caldari fanboi not understanding overall gamebalance which is not there to benefit one race at the cost of all others but support a natural balance between those 4 which helps to maintain a fair and balanced battle system where players can decide battles by tactics and knowldge and not by simply getting a flavor of the month ship. after you played eve for a while youll realize this. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.24 21:07:00 - [142] Originally by: Etho Demerzel And even if that was true, you can't have a cloaked ship waiting for Falcon, can you? Like god forbid me a Pilgrim. A pilgrim would kill a falcon so fast it wouldn't even be funny... Truth is, there are a so many counters to ECM ships it is nothing even funny. These are just 2 simple examples. All you need is to be able to use your brain, and make the conditions favorable to you, which unfortunately whiners are uncapable of doing... Just about any ship can kill a Falcon so fast it's not funny. If your gang is worried about Falcons, bring 1 Snipoc with an ECCM. 4000 unhardened hitpoints, half of them shields (0% resist to EM) will vanish like a snowflake in a furnace. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Galen Salkor Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.24 21:28:00 - [143] Originally by: Fehz I almost read this entire thread.. Not once have I heard anyone say anything about FOF missiles.. but maybe since I'm a falcon pilot I should be quiet.. And has anyone here noticed the sensor strength recons get? It's nuts compared to everything else. It's tough to jam other recons. And let's see... Caldari have 2 ships that can choose their targets.. falcons and crows.. Everyone else can just pick a ship and nano it up. I've seen people try to nano caldari ships.. that's some funny stuff.. The problem with FoFs is that they go after the closest hostile target, including drones. One on One, they will work great (I easily beat a Celestis with a Caracal once in a duel - pre-damp nerf, shields hardly scratched) after all the drones are dead. In a group battle they will just go after the closest hostile. First drones which are usually very close to you then tacklers or the big tanked BS that is shooting you. That said, however, you can get a crow up close to the falcon which has pathetic DPS anyway and would never be able to kill the speed-tanked crow, and use FoF missiles if he jams you. The crow will hurt it pretty bad so it will have to leave or die without even being tackled.
xxxak O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 21:42:00 - [144] Edited by: xxxak on 24/03/2008 21:43:33 Originally by: Reto yes a vagabond is as powerful as a falcon (N00B). you sir are a caldari fanboi not understanding overall gamebalance which is not there to benefit one race at the cost of all others but support a natural balance between those 4 which helps to maintain a fair and balanced battle system where players can decide battles by tactics and knowldge and not by simply getting a flavor of the month ship. after you played eve for a while youll realize this. If you really believe a Vaga bond is not as powerful as a Falcon, then explain to me why ~40% of 0.0 pvpers (offensive) fly a Vaga and only 15% fly a Caldari Recon? There is more to "deciding a battle" than you think. Vagas can dictate range and who they engage in a way that literally NO Caldari ship can do (Well, maybe the Crow). I would be HAPPY to nerf the Falcon if you are willing to lose 3km/s off the Vaga.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 21:44:00 - [145] Originally by: xxxak Originally by: Reto yes a vagabond is as powerful as a falcon (N00B). you sir are a caldari fanboi not understanding overall gamebalance which is not there to benefit one race at the cost of all others but support a natural balance between those 4 which helps to maintain a fair and balanced battle system where players can decide battles by tactics and knowldge and not by simply getting a flavor of the month ship. after you played eve for a while youll realize this. If you really believe a Vaga bond is not as powerful as a Falcon, then explain to me why ~40% of 0.0 pvpers (offensive) fly a Vaga and only 15% fly a Caldari Recon? Because 95% of pvpers are not real pvpers but are cowards. Vagas are the easiest getaways and do decent damage. Todays ship popularity is about wich ship has the highest survival rate and not power. Wich is sad. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
xxxak O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 21:54:00 - [146] Well call them cowards or call them smart, but the fact remains that until we fix the "nano situation" it makes the "ECM situation" look just fine.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 21:59:00 - [147] Originally by: xxxak Well call them cowards or call them smart, but the fact remains that until we fix the "nano situation" it makes the "ECM situation" look just fine. Id sign for fixing both. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:11:00 - [148] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... And how are the friends of the inty gonna warp when they are tackled and involved in close combat 150km away? Because ALL of the inty friends will be tackled right? You often tackle ALL enemy ships in the opposing gang at once right? And even if that was true, you can't have a cloaked ship waiting for Falcon, can you? Like god forbid me a Pilgrim. A pilgrim would kill a falcon so fast it wouldn't even be funny... Truth is, there are a so many counters to ECM ships it is nothing even funny. These are just 2 simple examples. All you need is to be able to use your brain, and make the conditions favorable to you, which unfortunately whiners are uncapable of doing... Oh so youll split your group in half? Leave 2 tackled ships behind and warp 2-3 to the falcon? Sorry but youre clueless. It doesnt work. Before you pull that off the falcon will warp off or cloak. Or even worse he'll warp off right before those 2-3 ships come out of warp and your gang is split in two. The 2 ships left behind get ganked while your inty now flies to the other direction for another warp in point to your friends that are dying. Before you get there they are dead and youre outnumbered and falcon comes back at 150km and does the same again. It does not work and youre just theory-crafting and its no better then the people living in eft and on sisi that barely know what pvp is on tranq. Please long on tranquility before you present solutions like this. Yes because one inty and one pilgrim are HALF of your gang... You have no arguments. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:14:00 - [149] Originally by: Etho Demerzel You have no arguments. We'll let ccp decide that in the near future. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:23:00 - [150] Originally by: Etho Demerzel You had 3 geddons against a Domi and a Typhoon. Even if each had a point in one of the geddons, that still leaves one geddon free to warp to the zealot (150 km away in the top of the falcon) and release the drones. As soon as you do that the Falco is history. The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... I think I was unclear. We had many fights with Falcons. They usually involved one good tanking ship at the undocking port, either a Typhoon or a Domi. Yes, we lost to only on damage-dealing battleship, not two, despite some ECCM. In most cases, the Falcon's tend to be within the 150km warp range to avoid being at a warpable point. Even if so, they will just warp to another point and continue the jamming. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:37:00 - [151] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Etho Demerzel You had 3 geddons against a Domi and a Typhoon. Even if each had a point in one of the geddons, that still leaves one geddon free to warp to the zealot (150 km away in the top of the falcon) and release the drones. As soon as you do that the Falco is history. The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... I think I was unclear. We had many fights with Falcons. They usually involved one good tanking ship at the undocking port, either a Typhoon or a Domi. Yes, we lost to only on damage-dealing battleship, not two, despite some ECCM. In most cases, the Falcon's tend to be within the 150km warp range to avoid being at a warpable point. Even if so, they will just warp to another point and continue the jamming. You can always have a cloaked ship outside the station at a near SS. And as I told you a pilgrim would be just nasty. You will warp onm the top of him and have good chances of sucking his cap and scrambling him before he can ECM you or warp, especially if you are using an ECCM module. Even if he manages to warp out he will waste cycles and your battleships will be free to fight, so no problem. This is only one counter. As a guy told you above, you could make one dedicated sniper Apocalypse imune to ECM (a couple actives should do the trick) and insta pop the Falcon... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Ogul	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:37:00 - [152] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Oh so youll split your group in half? Leave 2 tackled ships behind and warp 2-3 to the falcon? Sorry but youre clueless. It doesnt work. Before you pull that off the falcon will warp off or cloak. Or even worse he'll warp off right before those 2-3 ships come out of warp and your gang is split in two. The 2 ships left behind get ganked while your inty now flies to the other direction for another warp in point to your friends that are dying. Before you get there they are dead and youre outnumbered and falcon comes back at 150km and does the same again. It does not work and youre just theory-crafting and its no better then the people living in eft and on sisi that barely know what pvp is on tranq. Please long on tranquility before you present solutions like this. Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:41:00 - [153] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:40:55 Originally by: Ogul Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... He wasnt suggesting it. He was presenting it as a solution, wich it is not. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Galen Salkor	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:43:00 - [154] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Etho Demerzel You had 3 geddons against a Domi and a Typhoon. Even if each had a point in one of the geddons, that still leaves one geddon free to warp to the zealot (150 km away in the top of the falcon) and release the drones. As soon as you do that the Falco is history. The whiners on this thread seem to conveniently "forget" that all you need near the Falcon is one interceptor in your gang to warp death into it... I think I was unclear. We had many fights with Falcons. They usually involved one good tanking ship at the undocking port, either a Typhoon or a Domi. Yes, we lost to only on damage-dealing battleship, not two, despite some ECCM. In most cases, the Falcon's tend to be within the 150km warp range to avoid being at a warpable point. Even if so, they will just warp to another point and continue the jamming. You can always have a cloaked ship outside the station at a near SS. And as I told you a pilgrim would be just nasty. You will warp onm the top of him and have good chances of sucking his cap and scrambling him before he can ECM you or warp, especially if you are using an ECCM module. Even if he manages to warp out he will waste cycles and your battleships will be free to fight, so no problem. This is only one counter. As a guy told you above, you could make one dedicated sniper Apocalypse imune to ECM (a couple actives should do the trick) and insta pop the Falcon... He is right. Chances are it only has to be done once or twice then they will have to change to using another type of recon that won't have to worry about ECCM like a pilgrim or curse which would hurt those geddons too.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:43:00 - [155] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:40:55 Originally by: Ogul Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... He wasnt suggesting it. He was presenting it as a solution, wich it is not. Whines are the last resource of the incompetent. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:44:00 - [156] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:44:46 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:44:33 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 22:40:55 Originally by: Ogul Yea, shame on the other guy for suggestion actually going after the ship that causes you all that trouble. What an idiot... He wasnt suggesting it. He was presenting it as a solution, wich it is not. Whines are the last resource of the incompetent. I wonder who the incompetent people are. The falcon fanbois or the people trying to have some small scale fun? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Steakkbone	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:57:00 - [157] The fact that this thread is over 6 pages now increases the odds that ECM will be nerfed.
Merdaneth	Posted - 2008.03.24 22:59:00 - [158] Originally by: Etho Demerzel You can always have a cloaked ship outside the station at a near SS. And as I told you a pilgrim would be just nasty. You will warp onm the top of him and have good chances of sucking his cap and scrambling him before he can ECM you or warp, especially if you are using an ECCM module. Even if he manages to warp out he will waste cycles and your battleships will be free to fight, so no problem. This is only one counter. As a guy told you above, you could make one dedicated sniper Apocalypse imune to ECM (a couple actives should do the trick) and insta pop the Falcon... Sure, there are many counters. It is just that the counters require the presence of a lot of specific ships and pilots and setups, who will not always be available, and even if they do, they will be less than useful in other situations. If there are two hostiles in local, with one Typhoon or Domi sitting at the undock port, do you immediately have to roll out your anti-Falcon squad each time, consisting of a lot of different pilots with specifically setup ships? Do you need to choose not to fight if you don't have them available for fear of the Falcon being there? What if it is just a Thorax and a Taranis visible? Do you have to go out in ECCM'ed sniper battleships and Pilgrims on the off chance that there is one Falcon hiding 150km out? If you go out with a fleet, do you need all these ships with you, with their specific fit and tactics on the off chance there is a Falcon out there? I guess the answer is yes. And our most of our battleships and battlecruisers now fly with 2x ECCM. That is a lot of midslots wasted on a fleet, but the effect of a single Falcon on an otherwise reasonably even fight is too just great to risk flying without the ECCM. Even then, the Falcon can still disable any tacklers (difficult to tackle with Amarr battleships/battlecruisers loaded up with ECCM) and have their friends warp off. We have the good fortune that some of our usual enemies don't constantly bring in these ships, for they know they will get little fighting going if they continue to do so. Hence, we are protected from the inbalancing aspects of these ships by the generosity of our enemies. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:01:00 - [159] Sorry small-scale is where you should noticed this ship isn't op'd. Your just failing hard to notice tools and counters to this ship. Most people in "small-scale" like you say won't run a ECM dedicated ship just because your losing a pretty healthy portion of DPS by flying a recon. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:24:00 - [160] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/03/2008 23:24:43 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I wonder who the incompetent people are. The falcon fanbois or the people trying to have some small scale fun? I have a suggestion: look at the mirror :) The incompetent are those that want to dumbify the game because they can't think outside the box to deal adequately with anything that is not "me shoot you with my big gun". Originally by: Merdaneth Sure, there are many counters. It is just that the counters require the presence of a lot of specific ships and pilots and setups, who will not always be available, and even if they do, they will be less than useful in other situations. If there are two hostiles in local, with one Typhoon or Domi sitting at the undock port, do you immediately have to roll out your anti-Falcon squad each time, consisting of a lot of different pilots with specifically setup ships? Do you need to choose not to fight if you don't have them available for fear of the Falcon being there? What if it is just a Thorax and a Taranis visible? Do you have to go out in ECCM'ed sniper battleships and Pilgrims on the off chance that there is one Falcon hiding 150km out? If you go out with a fleet, do you need all these ships with you, with their specific fit and tactics on the off chance there is a Falcon out there? I guess the answer is yes. And our most of our battleships and battlecruisers now fly with 2x ECCM. That is a lot of midslots wasted on a fleet, but the effect of a single Falcon on an otherwise reasonably even fight is too just great to risk flying without the ECCM. Even then, the Falcon can still disable any tacklers (difficult to tackle with Amarr battleships/battlecruisers loaded up with ECCM) and have their friends warp off. We have the good fortune that some of our usual enemies don't constantly bring in these ships, for they know they will get little fighting going if they continue to do so. Hence, we are protected from the inbalancing aspects of these ships by the generosity of our enemies. In your example, just keep ONE sniper Apocalypse fitted with doule ECCM in your station. Falcon spotted, undock and kill it or make it run. Problem solved. Falcon not spotted, undock a short range geddon instead. One ship completely neutralizes the Falcon... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:35:00 - [161] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 23:35:48 Originally by: Etho Demerzel I have a suggestion: look at the mirror :) The incompetent are those that want to dumbify the game because they can't think outside the box to deal adequately with anything that is not "me shoot you with my big gun". Yeah because jamming and getting jammed adds alot to the game. Especially when you cant even see that ship on the scanner. You know whats funny? This thread is already 6 pages long. You know why? Because there is a problem with the falcon. If I would go make a thread saying "Arazu is overpowered, nerf it!", the thread would die after 5-6 replies. Youre so afraid that youre going to lose your fotm that you and your fanboi pals are panicing all over the place and trying to flame out people that are trying to come up with a solution to this problem. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:43:00 - [162] If you want to jam like a falcon you should be in a rook. Falcon needs to have its jam strength reduced from 20% to 15%.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:46:00 - [163] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/03/2008 23:35:48 Originally by: Etho Demerzel I have a suggestion: look at the mirror :) The incompetent are those that want to dumbify the game because they can't think outside the box to deal adequately with anything that is not "me shoot you with my big gun". Yeah because jamming and getting jammed adds alot to the game. Especially when you cant even see that ship on the scanner. You know whats funny? This thread is already 6 pages long. You know why? Because there is a problem with the falcon. If I would go make a thread saying "Arazu is overpowered, nerf it!", the thread would die after 5-6 replies. Youre so afraid that youre going to lose your fotm that you and your fanboi pals are panicing all over the place and trying to flame out people that are trying to come up with a solution to this problem. I see only you and at most 2-3 Amarr people here complaining about it. Everybody else is telling you to stfu. The fact that this thread has 6 pages, means only the BS you are tallking is so outrageous that even people like me, who almost never post, are willing to use their time to say how obnoxious and wrong you are. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:51:00 - [164] Originally by: Etho Demerzel I see only you and at most 2-3 Amarr people here complaining about it. Everybody else is telling you to stfu. The fact that this thread has 6 pages, means only the BS you are tallking is so outrageous that even people like me, who almost never post, are willing to use their time to say how obnoxious and wrong you are. That was exactly my point. If our posts were obnoxious people wouldnt even answer them. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:52:00 - [165] Originally by: Altai Saker If you want to jam like a falcon you should be in a rook. Falcon needs to have its jam strength reduced from 20% to 15%. This would be a start. Also add a bit of ECCM boost. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:56:00 - [166] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer That was exactly my point. If our posts were obnoxious people wouldnt even answer them. That's not true and you know it. People answer JoJo threads (your alt?) and Shinsushi threads. Stop posting crap. The falcon and all ECM is fine. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 23:57:00 - [167] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This would be a start. Also add a bit of ECCM boost. Nerf TD's while you're at it. Even on bonused ships, they're far too powerful. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Tibilo Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2008.03.25 00:03:00 - [168] I believe the recon ship role is for support in this the falcon is an excellent choice. As to whether its overpowered or not depends on the size of engagement. in a fight between roughly equivalent gangs, being able to jam 2 or 3 ships probably means you win but the ecm ship will be primary unless of course it is well out of range. In fleet fights the falcon is far too vulnerable to be useful, so why does it need to be able to jam at those ranges. Also when choosing a recon for a gang the minmater and ammar recons can be useful, webbing a ship out of range allowing torps to hit for full damage or emptying cap making it easier to take down or unable to deal damage etc, while reducing turret ships dps. However they both need to be at ranges where they can be hurt while a falcon can sit well out of range of damage. Also why take a gallente recon, using all of there fitted damps they can probably only reduce a ships targeting range to within scramble range having next to no effect when the fighting is within 20k anyway. If the fighting is outside of scramble range your probably better off with a caldari recon. Alternatively you could have a falcon to jam and a arazu to reduce locking time but why not just take 2 falcon as you can lock down more ships. As for scrambling an interceptor does it better although admittedly not at the same range but then it doesn't need to. Another thing about the gallente recons, gallente pvp is mostly about getting in close with high dps, so their recons can keep ships from warping and unable to lock untill the gallente ships are in range where they have the advantage with the higher dps. However the arazu/lachesis cant do this all that effectively and why not keep the enemy unable to lock at all by using ecm. Really i think the caldari recons shouldn't be able to jam at such extreme ranges making it more possible to counter and the gallente recons should be able to reduce both target range and lock time effectively where as at the moment they cant do either well enough to choose one over another ship
LoKesh InQuest Ascension	Posted - 2008.03.25 00:31:00 - [169] As a master of ECM... There is no such thing as a "perma-jam" even with multiple jammers on a target you still fail. Gallente E-war ships may have just gotten hit by a nerf, but if one damps you and keeps range you are screwed... Oh, and they can damp you and reach out 40 km with a point. We suffer from lack of DPS... Falcon? Please.. the dps is 50. A Rook is nice, but is fragile and a scorp is a nice boat, but needs friends.... xFoundation, xVC, xRISE
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.25 01:53:00 - [170] The dps argument is not an argument. All of the recons except the curse suck hugely by themselves. None of them do good damage, not even the curse. The rook is completely obsoleted by the falcon. They are exactly the same ship except the falcon can cloak... Therefore the falcon needs a drawback, end of story really. No other cloaking recon has completely replaced its counterpart. Solution: Go back to old 15% falcon.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 01:56:00 - [171] No, the Rook does not obsolete the Falcon Just because you don't know how and when to use it does not make it a bad ship. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 02:20:00 - [172] I guess the fundamental problem here is what exactly IS overpowered? By itself, as many have pointed out already, the Falcon isn't going to kill anything unless you count REALLY wierd scenarios (E.G. you attack a target with full knowledge of the race, fit the minimum jamming equipment along the requisite tackling gear and whatever tank you can wedge in, and then hope your woeful DPS actually manages to breach their tank). From a solo standpoing the Falcon clearly ISN'T overpowered. If you compare it to the other recons, a class of ships occupied by several of the more dissapointing entries it MAY be overpowered. While a long ranged web is always useful, the Huggin is really only fully useful when there are Nanos around. The falcon on the other hand can be useful in just about ANY scenario. If the Falcon is clearly at the head of the class here does it mean that it's overpowered or does it mean that the other Recons are underpowered? Afterall, nerfing ECM into the stone age won't make the Curse any better. If you look at the falcon in a Fleet, you'll find that it's ALWAYS welcome. Afterall, the ability to remove 4 ships from the fight at least a part of the time can be invaluable in any sized gang. Unfortunatly, even here the Falcon has it's problems. It's buffer is painfully small, and as such you'll find that as gang sizes increase the Falcon gives ground the Scorpion simply because the Scorpion's buffer let's it survive in places a Falcon would just pop. Is the Falcon and ECM in general overpowered simply because it's used more widely than other ECM or does it indicate something's wrong with the OTHER forms of EWAR? It seems to ME that the problem isn't the Falcon, and it isn't even ECM. As an EWAR type it's only truly useful on specialized ships, otherwise the painful cap drain and pitifully low base strength of the systems makes it a waste of slots. The real problem is that these days ECM is the ONLY good option for EWAR since everything else has been nerfed into obscelescence. If the goal is to level the playing field, nerfing ECM would certainly suffice but it doesn't fix the PROBLEM we have. To me, EWAR is designed to give players the option of doing something besides having a standard gank/tank setup, and as such it lends a certain fluidity to the game. A smaller fleet with well utalized EWAR support can defeat a larger more powerful fleet with poor EWAR support, and I don't think many rational people want to resort to a game where numbers of ships and luck are the only deciding factors in a battle. How about instead we look for ways to fix the other EWAR? Damps may have been overpowered but who says you can't boost their stats for a SINGLE function (range OR targeting time) back to their pre-nerf days? Tracking Disruptors have their problems, not the least of which is their complete ineffectivness against missiles. Why not just do away with the defender concept as a whole and let tracking disruptors become "targeting disruptors" and screw with missile targeting (E.G. a percentage of missiles simply fail to hit their targe)? NOS may have needed a nerf, but how about instead of having the rule of "only sucks power if you have less cap than them" become "only works at max capacity if you have more power, then becomes a diminishing return"? These aren't ironclad solutions, these are simply suggestions off the top of my head. I'm all for fixing what's broken but ECM ISN'T what's broken - it's the only EWAR that really functions. Fix the other types and let Amarr and Gallente recon pilots have a reason to dust off their old ships. Once the other types are fixed THEN we can consider ECM's power. Until that happens, we are all just making guesses.
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.03.25 02:45:00 - [173] Originally by: Reto Originally by: Methem The falcon is designed to remove 2-3 dps ships from a fight. no single cruiser should be able to do that. no other recon can do this by any means. also recons should be by far more vulnerable to their own ew. If you take away it's ability to do this, the Falcon has no purpose. It adds nothing else to pvp. What is your interpretation of its role?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:10:00 - [174] Originally by: Merdaneth .... You choose to pvp like that mate, not us. --------------- you all smell!
Endless Subversion Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:20:00 - [175] The falcon is beyond belief overpowered. ECCM doesn't come close to being effective enough. We've been fighting a corp using heavy amounts of falcon pilots. They almost always have more pilots than we do. Recently we had 2 falcon pilots PERMA jam four battleships all fielding ECCM. It's a joke. Not one of the battleships had more than 1 lock that entire 'fight'. Your tacklers can't tackle and ECCM, your battleships can't lock long enough to shoot anything. The falcons cross jam to allow escapes and easily fit a 1600 plate, so they've plenty of buffer. It's absurd, between cloaks and jams you never kill buffered falcons. I've heard people talking about dropping drones on them or 'insta' popping them. What a load of bull. A good indicator of game imbalance is when the only 'counter' is to bring some of your own. Self Destruct & LogOffs
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:28:00 - [176] Originally by: Endless Subversion The falcon is beyond belief overpowered. ECCM doesn't come close to being effective enough. We've been fighting a corp using heavy amounts of falcon pilots. They almost always have more pilots than we do. Recently we had 2 falcon pilots PERMA jam four battleships all fielding ECCM. It's a joke. Not one of the battleships had more than 1 lock that entire 'fight'. Your tacklers can't tackle and ECCM, your battleships can't lock long enough to shoot anything. The falcons cross jam to allow escapes and easily fit a 1600 plate, so they've plenty of buffer. It's absurd, between cloaks and jams you never kill buffered falcons. I've heard people talking about dropping drones on them or 'insta' popping them. What a load of bull. A good indicator of game imbalance is when the only 'counter' is to bring some of your own. I don't believe you tbqfh. If you can't figure out a way to counter it then perhaps its you thats the problem? Quote: They almost always have more pilots than we do. Then get more pilots that know what they're doing. Fact is the Falcon is a gang ship, what this means is that basically every argument in this thread in which balance is being discussed is invalid and irrelevant. As soon as more than one ship is involved its you the victim who wasn't prepared that got it wrong, not the ship. Yes ECM is powerful, yes its a pain in the arse but there is NO direct balance conflict with any other ship. It's useless alone and that is about the heaviest price a pvp ship can pay in this game. --------------- you all smell!
Cpt Cosmic Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:36:00 - [177] haha cant wait for the nerf cause of the whiners
Galen Salkor Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:37:00 - [178] I've read all the replies and I'm still not convinced the Falcon needs any more changing than reducing the jam strength to 15% per level or maybe something along the lines I suggested earlier. The scenarios presented as 'examples' don't really help in convincing me since perma jamming is impossible with ECCM. People who say it is even with ECCM just have bad luck for each cycle. Other than that, there really isn't a whole lot I feel to change about the Falcon except maybe boosting other race's ewar capabilities so the Falcon isn't the premiere ship that should be flown when wanting effective ewar.
Grimpak	Posted - 2008.03.25 06:49:00 - [179] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This would be a start. Also add a bit of ECCM boost. Nerf TD's while you're at it. Even on bonused ships, they're far too powerful. :) -Liang acutally, nerfing the str bonus from 20 to 15% in the falcon, and only that, would be the only thing I would do to the falcon, because atm, the only thing that the rook has better than the falcon is bigger base targetting range and stronger sensor (32 pts. if I'm not mistaken). however, I have to say that the rest of the ECM, by itself, doesn't need any kind of nerf. ECCM however needs something, because atm is a bit meh (read something, not more) --- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
techzer0	Posted - 2008.03.25 06:55:00 - [180] Originally by: Multras Stop saying the falcon can perma jam everything because thats utter BS, It can perma jam t1 frigs, some t2 frigs, t1 destroyers, and most dictors. Yeah... all 6 of my jammers normally miss the first cycle. Never seems to happen when I get jumped by a falcon, but it does. Heck, it took all of my jammers two cycles to jam a paladin the other day, and they're known for being ridiculously easy to jam ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 07:12:00 - [181] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Multras Stop saying the falcon can perma jam everything because thats utter BS, It can perma jam t1 frigs, some t2 frigs, t1 destroyers, and most dictors. Yeah... all 6 of my jammers normally miss the first cycle. Never seems to happen when I get jumped by a falcon, but it does. Heck, it took all of my jammers two cycles to jam a paladin the other day, and they're known for being ridiculously easy to jam I think you have bad luck man --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Raekone Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.03.25 08:33:00 - [182] I know the fix to all this! What they should do right, is give a certain fixed strength to each jammer and if all your jammers dont get above the sensor strength of the target...... it wont get jammed! That way if you really wanted you could buff your sensor strength with them lowslot modules so it gets really high so you wont get jammed (while scrificing valuable lowslots). It's the perfect fix to this chance based crap where you get jammed anyway by some **** with a single multispec on his domi. It would more or less guarantee a dedicated ecm pilot to scramble someone, while at the same time making it hard/impossible to jam several targets at once. How do you like my novel idea? Oh.... wait
Corstaad Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.25 09:40:00 - [183] This is why this discussion is stupid random numbers. I used to play another game where crit where used. With out using math it was like 1% chance to do insane dmg on someone. Well everyone and there grams had a screenshot of people doing insane amount of crap on someone just because the dice rolled in the others favor. Whine threads where all over for years to nerf already nerfed people for years after they tried to fix it. In all it was a complete ****** move pushed by threadmongers.
Ashira Twilight The Arctic Fox	Posted - 2008.03.25 09:48:00 - [184] Originally by: Corstaad This is why this discussion is stupid random numbers. I used to play another game where crit where used. With out using math it was like 1% chance to do insane dmg on someone. Well everyone and there grams had a screenshot of people doing insane amount of crap on someone just because the dice rolled in the others favor. Whine threads where all over for years to nerf already nerfed people for years after they tried to fix it. In all it was a complete ****** move pushed by threadmongers. /me overloads his sarcasm module II Yeah, I am like so glad this game doesn't have critical hits... ---------------------------------------
Sempaia Tenda A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.25 09:57:00 - [185] Originally by: Crazy Tasty ... if the falcon is already having to jam the primaries ... Arghhh Never ever never jam the primary
Corstaad Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.25 09:57:00 - [186] Sorry but what I'm talking about is 1% sometimes combined by another 1% what are the odds? Do I know start a thread or just change my shorts? Its all about nerfthreads and non-hacks pick a side.
ridik ulass Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.25 11:28:00 - [187] imo the proper responce to a falcon is a t1 frig with damps. but i agree there over powered i think a small lock time increase for fitting ecm would be a fair nerf means you could still get perma jammed if your not quick and other falcons might drop ecm for sb's mix up fittings a little or is everone in eve now expected to have a falcon alt, hauler alt and train up learings when they start eve Blood on my torp or isk in my wallet
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.03.26 00:30:00 - [188] Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 24/03/2008 21:43:33 Originally by: Reto yes a vagabond is as powerful as a falcon (N00B). you sir are a caldari fanboi not understanding overall gamebalance which is not there to benefit one race at the cost of all others but support a natural balance between those 4 which helps to maintain a fair and balanced battle system where players can decide battles by tactics and knowldge and not by simply getting a flavor of the month ship. after you played eve for a while youll realize this. If you really believe a Vaga bond is not as powerful as a Falcon, then explain to me why ~40% of 0.0 pvpers (offensive) fly a Vaga and only 15% fly a Caldari Recon? There is more to "deciding a battle" than you think. Vagas can dictate range and who they engage in a way that literally NO Caldari ship can do (Well, maybe the Crow). I would be HAPPY to nerf the Falcon if you are willing to lose 3km/s off the Vaga. did you ever fight a vagbond with a falcon? Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 00:34:00 - [189] Originally by: Reto did you ever fight a vagbond with a falcon? I've fought 2 vagabonds and a Taranis with my Falcon... I got away. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Bull Ramahorn Sexy Productions	Posted - 2008.03.26 03:21:00 - [190] Just a thought, might've been mentioned, but how about scripts for ECM, one for range, one for strength, and then nerf both to half. Sounds like a plan to me. Right now they can have their cake and eat it too, why not change it to be more in line with all the other changes?
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 03:51:00 - [191] Originally by: Bull Ramahorn Just a thought, might've been mentioned, but how about scripts for ECM, one for range, one for strength, and then nerf both to half. Sounds like a plan to me. Right now they can have their cake and eat it too, why not change it to be more in line with all the other changes? Because the other changes essentially broke what was working before. As I stated previously, the fact that the other forms of EWAR are nerfed into obscelescene has created the presumption that the Falcon and ECM in general is completely overpowered. The real problem here isn't the fact that the Falcon works too well, it's the fact that nothing else really works at all. My last post pointed this out in greater detail and I don't feel like going over it again.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 03:56:00 - [192] Originally by: Derek Sigres Because the other changes essentially broke what was working before. As I stated previously, the fact that the other forms of EWAR are nerfed into obscelescene has created the presumption that the Falcon and ECM in general is completely overpowered. The real problem here isn't the fact that the Falcon works too well, it's the fact that nothing else really works at all. My last post pointed this out in greater detail and I don't feel like going over it again. It was a good post, and you should post it in ideas or gamedev. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 04:37:00 - [193] Edited by: Julius Romanus on 26/03/2008 04:39:13 I had a dream today! A dream in which recons of all races sat together at the table of plenty. Not by the cold hand of nerfatude, but by the warm embrace of a true boost patch. It was indeed though just a dream. Hell recon balance wasnt even a top in the last "ask the devs wtf is up with boost patch" blog. It's not coming.
Sal Alo Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.26 04:38:00 - [194] Originally by: BloodyWomble Signed. You should get a sec hit if you use ecm. In fact every time you undock in a caldari ship you should lose sec. Address the balance now!! /Agree with my Sebiestor brother ___________________________________ ISK SELLERS: PROBLEM SOLVED, CCP +1
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:06:00 - [195] Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 26/03/2008 06:08:40 I like the idea of people having to make choices, the whole reason scripts were implemented, which is why i support the idea of scripting ECM by range and effectiveness, pilots have to make choices. TBH if all recons are boosted to the effectiveness of ECM, there'll no longer be a reason to fit guns...cause nothing will ever be able to target again. The falcon is so effective it leaves the other recons in the dust(by other recons I really just mean gallente, huginn/curse are in their own world tbh), if you bring the falcons in closer, the gallente recons find more use because they can block the falcons out, however the falcons still have that option of going long range, but they have to give up something to do it. I think it would make more sense to nerf them to 75%/75%, and the script boost to 100%/50% one way or the other. Also I'd like to see some sort of range option given to the gallente recons as well, possibly by script, that would balance them quite well against each other. The minmatar and amarr recons are in their own world so far as ewar goes, don't really know what would be done, though I think whatever changes that could be made to damps could likewise be made to tracking disruptors, giving them a range option which might make the pilgrim viable again, using neuts more as a line of defense when they're tackled and tracking disruptors having long range effect in fights. Edit:I think both damps and TDs would be more balanced against a scripted ECM if they likewise didn't have to choose between types of effect(optimal vs other) but instead had to choose between effectiveness and range by similar ratios as the ECM mods. I think the only reason they are differentiated by optimal vs other is because CCP didn't think much about it and just ran them basically counter to sensor boosters and tracking computers, which might have been a mistake. Self boosting mods have one purpose, remote suppression mods have another.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:15:00 - [196] Originally by: Sexorella hotz I like the idea of people having to make choices, the whole reason scripts were implemented, which is why i support the idea of scripting ECM by range and effectiveness, pilots have to make choices. TBH if all recons are boosted to the effectiveness of ECM, there'll no longer be a reason to fit guns...cause nothing will ever be able to target again. The falcon is so effective it leaves the other recons in the dust(by other recons I really just mean gallente, huginn/curse are in their own world tbh), if you bring the falcons in closer, the gallente recons find more use because they can block the falcons out, however the falcons still have that option of going long range, but they have to give up something to do it. I think it would make more sense to nerf them to 75%/75%, and the script boost to 100%/50% one way or the other. Also I'd like to see some sort of range option given to the gallente recons as well, possibly by script, that would balance them quite well against each other. The minmatar and amarr recons are in their own world so far as ewar goes, don't really know what would be done, though I think whatever changes that could be made to damps could likewise be made to tracking disruptors, giving them a range option which might make the pilgrim viable again, using neuts more as a line of defense when they're tackled and tracking disruptors having long range effect in fights. Um, I can see why you would complain about the effectiveness of ECM, while you fly around with your alt and you're both in Guardians. I imagine the only time that you lose a fight is if you get jammed. Anyway, back on topic: The Falcon and Rook are good at what they do, but you don't need to look any further than the last alliance tournament to see why it isn't a valid tactic to overdo your ewar. There were several teams that fielded all blackbird teams - and, to put it mildly, they did not do well. ECM is not the be-all, end-all of ewar, and to claim that it would be useless to fit guns if the Arazu, Lachesis, and Pilgrim got boosted is at best a hyperbole. Also, those ships are designed for very small gang warfare. The Arazu and Lachesis could shut down one, and a very strong maybe two targets. In return, they got a warp disruptor bonus to help lock someone down, and a tiny bit of DPS to help kill them. For what you fear to actually happen, you'd have to engage an all recon gang - and be outnumbered. IMO, if they can kill you (eventually), you deserve to have died. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:19:00 - [197] Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 26/03/2008 06:25:54 Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 26/03/2008 06:23:03 Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 26/03/2008 06:21:59 Its not just a matter of effectiveness in my opinion, but of freedom to operate. Falcons can generally act without any fear of harm, because they can work at huge ranges and if anything scary comes after them, they can warp off and warp back, of if its just a ceptor they can jam it and move about at their leisure. All the other recons have to operate close range because they don't have the range option of the falcon/rook. I say give them all a range option, but make them all have to give up something for it. I agree my statement about boosting all the ewar shutting down the game was a bit over the top, but you boost them all and they will be a lot more numerous. And yes, my dual guardian setup's only enemy is ECM atm, and I'm waiting for the guards to be nerfed cause tbh I'm tired of flying them:P If they get nerfed I won't be expected to fly them and only them. But if you notice, I'm not suggesing that much of a nerf to the falcon/rook, just that they have to make choices like everyone else. Knocking them down to 50% range still gives them operational freedom at decent range of 50-100km, they just have to be more alert, and by scripting it they can make decisions on the fly. If they're opposing a fast gang, they can choose to operate at greater range, if not, they can go for more effectiveness. And don't reference the tournament for gods sake, might as well compare PVP to PVE if you're gonna do that. And more...the arazu/lachesis can push their first falloff out to about 140km with rigs, don't know if that's gonna shut a falcon down, and regardless the arazu/lachesis is always going to be a lot more vulnerable cause a ceptor drops in range, and the arazu/lach isn't going anywhere. Its not just about effectiveness, a lot of the issue here is survivability.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:35:00 - [198] Well, there's nothing wrong with the Falcon and/or Rook jamming an interceptor.. or even a few of them. It won't be doing anything to it. For that matter, the Arazu is the same way. It can shut the inty down (and maybe even more than one) - but it won't otherwise bother them. I'm not really sure why you want to take away the Rook/Falcon's range and give everyone else the same range. It detracts from the game, and otherwise has no real purpose. The Caldari Flavor is range. They specialize in it, to the exclusion of damage bonuses. They excel in dealing damage when nobody else can. The Gallente flavor is bruising and up close. In theory, damps are supposed to force this kind of combat, and provide some cover while doing it. They're also supposed to provide a bonus for helping drones. It's really an Epic Fail, but that really has nothing to do with this discussion. The Minmatar flavor is range and speed advantage. They're faster, and their ewar helps them maintain that advantage. If things go south, they can run - and nothing else can. The Amarr flavor is capacitor dominance. They need capacitor to survive, and know that everyone else does to. Nobody plate tanks like the Amarr - and the Curse helps make sure that the Amarr come through the fight in one piece. There are broken recons, but they simply need fixed. You don't need to drastically change the flavor of the game by making range a universal flavor. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:45:00 - [199] Well, I guess all I have to ask you then is what is the fix for gallente recons? If not range then you're still completely gimping their survivability. Not to mention a caldari recon can shut down a ceptor with one module, a gallente would have to focus all its ewar to get a ceptor off its back. Not exactly the same thing if you ask me. And if the ceptor just hits approach and glues itself to the arazu/lachesis the ship is stuck, almost certainly long enough for a ship to get there to finish it off, cause at that point the gallente recon has only the option of trying to kill the offending tackler. And furthermore, I'm not saying make range the fix, but make it a choice that has drawbacks. I understand the concept behind each race, but there's also a concept of a ship class. The recons are slippery, the minmatar, as you said, have their speed in this respect, amarr have neuts, and caldari has range, gallente have nothing in this respect and I think, based on teh nature of their ewar, its similarity to caldari ewar in attacking targeting systems, their going to have to rely on the same sort of tactic to protect themselves.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:53:00 - [200] Presently, the only problem with the Gallente recons is that damps are royally broken. As it stands, the Arazu lost not only its primary weapon (shutting down the enemy), it lost its primary tank (shutting down the 1-2 enemies in the fight). The proper fix for the Gallente recons is to give them a 15% damp bonus so that they're not so dependent on scripts. They lost their tank, their weapon, and the buffer they had against exactly the kind of attack that you're talking about (range). We'll never see a proper fix to that, in my opinion. So, the nature of the Arazu's survivability is part and parcel of its existence. Even pre-trinity, the Arazu could very well have died to that same lone interceptor - and there was nothing wrong with them then. It's the nature of the ship, and there's really nothing wrong with that. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sionide THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.03.26 07:51:00 - [201] I think the issue with recon ships is trying to find that happy medium of balance between OP and nerfed to unusability. Personally, I think all the past nerfs of ecms were necessary. Before the dampener nerf, arazus ruled in small gangs. I ran in so many small pvp gangs where the lead scout was an arazu pilot. He would jump into the system, tackle and dampen the target and the rest of the group jumped in. The poor BS didn't have a chance, since his scan res was shot to hell as was his targeting range. I remember us ganking a mission running CNR, we had his lock down to 11km and it took him like 3 mins to lock anything...so yes, they were OP. The nos nerf (though not ecm per se) was also necessary. Unforunately, that also effected the curse. But honestly, I think the curse is still a viable ship, but instead of just being a ship you fly in all situations it is a ship you fly in certain situtation, which is what I think recon ships should be in general. Ships for a specific purpose. The curse is the ultimate vamp of cap, but it needs time to be effective. We can all see this during the alliance tournament where the curse played a vital role. Though perhaps "normal" pvp fights aren't built with logistic ships and tanking, and remote repairing, the good pvp groups will have this solid bases. There are tanking ships that can happily tank stupid amounts of dps (vulture, claymore, etc) and the only way to break them is over time and to take away the cap. That is the curses role. It can also wreck havoc on many dps BS. The rapier is also for a specific role, they are good at tackling. Be it gate camping in 0.0 catching people trying to run away from warp bubbles or war targets, and their target painting bonus helps the group with their dps. Other than that, their mileage varies. Their usefulness in lowsec isn't much since their range are in sight of the gate guns which will cut them to pieces. The falcon, well right now it's sort of the "king" of recon ships because...it just has too many things going for it. One of it's main benefits is that it has ridiculous range. So it can sit 200km out and do it's job happily avoiding most damage and any gate gun fire if in lowsec. 3 falcons can happily lock down a 10 man gang, making their targets utterly useless. Thus, another plus for the falcon is that while the other recon ships only really need 1 of their kind in a small-med gang size, you can have more than 1 falcon pilot. Here an azaru working with a falcon pilot would make the opposition cry. Recon ships should be ships for specific roles. I think most people are whining(?) because they flew these ships in the past and now can't pwn like they used to. The way they were designed and with the nerfs, it's doubtful that CCP intended them to be solo pwn mobiles, but rather ships flown in a group to benefit the group as they are now. Though currently, the falcon has the advantage, since they have the benefit and usefuless of having more than one falcon pilot in a small->med gang and their range puts them out of harms way from the enemies fire and gate gun fire. I guess another way of looking at things is what I call the "oh no" meter (replace "no" with anothe word that starts with s). In a gang of perhaps 6-7, we hear of an equal size gang with a rapier...meh. with a curse...maybe a bit worried, with an azaru...maybe sort of worried, a falcon...defcon 5. We then have to take stock of what we have, picture a sitatution where 3 of our ships are locked down perhaps chain locked, and figure out if we can survive that and still win, etc. So in conclusion, yeah I think the falcon is perhaps a bit too high on the "oh no" meter for one ship.
Nizomi Technopolis Ventures	Posted - 2008.03.26 08:41:00 - [202] Then again.. you can fit ECCM. Now imagine what happens? The gang with the falcon sees your equal sized gang and is laughing that they will pwn you to hell and back. The fight ensues and the falcon pilot is at best able to jam maybe 1 target. Oops, how did that happen? And Sexo, for the 023809235 time: ofcourse you get jammed when u fly your guardians cause you get to enjoy all the ECM in the world ;)
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:00:00 - [203] Originally by: Nizomi Then again.. you can fit ECCM. Now imagine what happens? The gang with the falcon sees your equal sized gang and is laughing that they will pwn you to hell and back. The fight ensues and the falcon pilot is at best able to jam maybe 1 target. Oops, how did that happen? In my opinion, a good definition of "overpowered" is that you either fly it or you specifically set up against it (or you die). -- Gradient forum
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:21:00 - [204] Originally by: Sionide So in conclusion, yeah I think the falcon is perhaps a bit too high on the "oh no" meter for one ship. Stupid post as always, there is nothing bad with falcons.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:29:00 - [205] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Sionide So in conclusion, yeah I think the falcon is perhaps a bit too high on the "oh no" meter for one ship. Stupid post as always, there is nothing bad with falcons. You're stupid if you don't think the falcon is a bit high on the 'oh no' meter for a recon. Everyone normal (non-suicidal) treats ECM ships in a special way when considering wether to actually pick a fight with them. The other recons are a nuisance, of course, but a Falcon/Rook changes the course of a gang fight all by itself. If you're not equipped to deal with ECM support (counter-jam / outblob) you're quite definitely not picking a fight with a falcon/etc equipped gang, which isn't exactly true when facing other recons. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:01:00 - [206] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Megan Maynard And gallente recon pilots need to shut up. A warp scram range bonus is more then enough power in a ship, getting a damp boost would make it the best gank ship in the freaking game. Just sit off 60 km from someone, while your drones and launchers do all the work? No. 48 km (and that's with recon 5). Even if you were right about the usefullnes of the warp scrambling range (which you are not) and the Gallente recons didn't cap out incredibly fast running the modules they need to run in order to work (which they do), still what about the Celestis? All it has is damps. Is it right that the blackbird is so much more powerful? One word for you: "Bellicose" ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Scarlet Pimpernel Clan Eshin	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:10:00 - [207] I find this thread amusing. The Falcon (and to a less degree the Rook) does 1 thing and 1 thing only. If Gal recon pilots want a 150km damp range then they gotta lose their scram bonus, their hybrid bonus and their drone bay - then the only thing they would be good at is damping and thus are justified being _very_ good at damping. Happy now? 1v1 all the Falcon can do (against a half decent opponent) is achieve a stalemate, as the Falcon is unlikely to be able to break a good tank and will be able to run from a jammed opponent if hes using drones or FOFs Caldari ships/ECM have always been effective in a gang, there are some situations where I'd rather be in a Scorp than a Falcon. Damp boats are closer ranged because they can fit a tank/be nano'd - neither of which is an option for the ECM pilot (hell the developers stated that range was an ECM pilots tank when they swapped the Griffin damage bonus for an ECM bonus) People want a damp boost? Sure, lets add a damp amp module like we got for ECM (now you cant fit a tank either) Happy now? Bottom line is crowd control in PvP has never been popular in any online game, at least Eve gives you some options to counter it (ECCM, FOF missiles, Drones) of course the Falcon is going to be difficult to catch, because the minute you do catch it hes dead! I can see why people think the Falcon needs to be distinguished from the Rook, however bear in mind that the ECM bonus never used to be the same (IIRC the Falcon was 10% ECM per cruiser level) and that got changed because the E-War bonus on all the other recons is the same across both ships - thus in order to change the Falcon bonus all the other force recon bonuses should be changed to make the force recon less powerful. Happy now? If I were soloing I'd pick the Rook over the Falcon, but then I'd probably choose something other than a Caldari recon to solo! Unless, ironically, there was a Gal recon there that could damp the target(s) to below my heavy missile range! The only thing that needs nerfing about the Falcon is the price tag
Darth Felin Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:31:00 - [208] Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel I find this thread amusing. The Falcon (and to a less degree the Rook) does 1 thing and 1 thing only. If Gal recon pilots want a 150km damp range then they gotta lose their scram bonus, their hybrid bonus and their drone bay - then the only thing they would be good at is damping and thus are justified being _very_ good at damping. Happy now? Well I will be happy very very much to lose everything you describe for an ability to lock a BS to a lockrange of 2-3 km from 150km+
Brodde Dim Unseen University Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:48:00 - [209] Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel 1v1 all the Falcon can do (against a half decent opponent) is achieve a stalemate. Why would you engage solo in a falcon? Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel ...but then I'd probably choose something other than a Caldari recon to solo! Oh, you wouldnt? Why use it as an example then? The guardian is an even worse solo ship than the falcon, I guess we need to boost it a lot then. And since it will never be good at solo pvp unless we change its role completely, we can keep boosting it forever!
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:58:00 - [210] Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel I find this thread amusing. The Falcon (and to a less degree the Rook) does 1 thing and 1 thing only. If Gal recon pilots want a 150km damp range then they gotta lose their scram bonus, their hybrid bonus and their drone bay - then the only thing they would be good at is damping and thus are justified being _very_ good at damping. Happy now? 1v1 all the Falcon can do (against a half decent opponent) is achieve a stalemate, as the Falcon is unlikely to be able to break a good tank and will be able to run from a jammed opponent if hes using drones or FOFs Caldari ships/ECM have always been effective in a gang, there are some situations where I'd rather be in a Scorp than a Falcon. Damp boats are closer ranged because they can fit a tank/be nano'd - neither of which is an option for the ECM pilot (hell the developers stated that range was an ECM pilots tank when they swapped the Griffin damage bonus for an ECM bonus) People want a damp boost? Sure, lets add a damp amp module like we got for ECM (now you cant fit a tank either) Happy now? Bottom line is crowd control in PvP has never been popular in any online game, at least Eve gives you some options to counter it (ECCM, FOF missiles, Drones) of course the Falcon is going to be difficult to catch, because the minute you do catch it hes dead! I can see why people think the Falcon needs to be distinguished from the Rook, however bear in mind that the ECM bonus never used to be the same (IIRC the Falcon was 10% ECM per cruiser level) and that got changed because the E-War bonus on all the other recons is the same across both ships - thus in order to change the Falcon bonus all the other force recon bonuses should be changed to make the force recon less powerful. Happy now? If I were soloing I'd pick the Rook over the Falcon, but then I'd probably choose something other than a Caldari recon to solo! Unless, ironically, there was a Gal recon there that could damp the target(s) to below my heavy missile range! The only thing that needs nerfing about the Falcon is the price tag THIS There were other threads about ecm recons, but this post clearly summarize, why these ships are not OP. If a recon is op then it must be the rapier.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 13:52:00 - [211] Originally by: Theron Gyrow In my opinion, a good definition of "overpowered" is that you either fly it or you specifically set up against it (or you die). I guess that makes guns overpowered? Afterall, if I don't fit some sort of tank to protect me against the slings and arrows thrown my way I pretty much crumple instantly.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.26 13:58:00 - [212] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Theron Gyrow In my opinion, a good definition of "overpowered" is that you either fly it or you specifically set up against it (or you die). I guess that makes guns overpowered? Afterall, if I don't fit some sort of tank to protect me against the slings and arrows thrown my way I pretty much crumple instantly. No your logic is faulty. Guns go on every ship. Everyone can use it and dps from guns are balanced to their range. What we have (to correct your analogy) here is rather that some ships get to fit guns that shoot 150km while others can only fit a T1 tank that only protects against those special guns but does nothing else. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:46:00 - [213] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Theron Gyrow In my opinion, a good definition of "overpowered" is that you either fly it or you specifically set up against it (or you die). I guess that makes guns overpowered? Afterall, if I don't fit some sort of tank to protect me against the slings and arrows thrown my way I pretty much crumple instantly. No your logic is faulty. Guns go on every ship. Everyone can use it and dps from guns are balanced to their range. What we have (to correct your analogy) here is rather that some ships get to fit guns that shoot 150km while others can only fit a T1 tank that only protects against those special guns but does nothing else. Yes, my logic was faulty because I was pointing out the faults in another persons logic. If overpowered means an item is only counterable by a SPECIFIC item or theory then it stands to reason that my statement is correct. Guns do damage. Tank items mitigate damage. Therefore, by the above logic the fact that I have to fit specific modules (tank) to counter another module (gank) it means that gank is in fact overpowered. Besides, your statement that the correct analogy is you get a gun that shoots 150km and the module that counters it only does that is fairly faulty as well. EVERY single tank module has a SINGLE purpose - to keep you alive when you're getting shot at. If you AREN'T getting shot at your tank serves no purpose. No quantity of tanking modules ensures you'll survive a battle, just as not quantity of gank modules guarntess you a kill. ECCM fully halves the chances of you getting jammed in a single module. Seems like a fair trade to me.
Scarlet Pimpernel Clan Eshin	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:49:00 - [214] Originally by: Darth Felin Well I will be happy very very much to lose everything you describe for an ability to lock a BS to a lockrange of 2-3 km from 150km+ Can you damp a BS down to 2-3km at the moment? People seem to be mainly complaining about the max range of damps vs ECM, not how 'effective' those modules are..... My [sarcastic] suggestion gave Gal pilots then same range as the Caldari, I made no consession to altering damp/ECM 'power' Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel 1v1 all the Falcon can do (against a half decent opponent) is achieve a stalemate. Why would you engage solo in a falcon? Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel ...but then I'd probably choose something other than a Caldari recon to solo! Oh, you wouldnt? Why use it as an example then? Gal and (to a lesser degree Amarr) recons can be used solo, Caldari (and I expect Matar)simply can't - another thing that Caldari recon sacrifices in order to be _very_ good at the 1 thing it does do. Bottom line is people say the Falcon is overpowered based solely on its ECM ability but they completely neglect to identify that it is only any good at that 1 thing, I think its completely justified that a 1 trick pony such as the Falcon deserves to be exceptionally good at its 1 trick. But if all the other recons want to have all their bonuses changed to their racial E-War (damps/disruptors/painters), lose their drone bays, have to fit amp modules in low slots and have their E-War changed to chance based in order to have their E-War as effective as the Caldari are with ECM I don't think the Caldari recon pilots will complain. I suspect however that the pilots of those ships would complain though because the complainers arent actually interested in balance, they are just interested in the Caldari recons being useless at the only thing they were intended to do so they don't have to take steps to concern themselves with the presence of enemy ECM
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:03:00 - [215] bring other EW in line with caldari and give all those recon(wannabe)s a boost to optimal. it is the ultimate EW, sure - one's got to be it. but i don't see why it has to enjoy the benefit of (insane) range aswell - putting the gist back into logistics
Scarlet Pimpernel Clan Eshin	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:36:00 - [216] Originally by: Roemy Schneider bring other EW in line with caldari and give all those recon(wannabe)s a boost to optimal. it is the ultimate EW, sure - one's got to be it. but i don't see why it has to enjoy the benefit of (insane) range aswell The others can fit a tank, so in order for the other recons to justify the extreme ranges on their racial e-war (damps/disruptors/painters) they'd need to have to fit low slot amps to maintain their [current] effectiveness
Kel Solaar Soulbound. Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:04:00 - [217] Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel Can you damp a BS down to 2-3km at the moment? People seem to be mainly complaining about the max range of damps vs ECM, not how 'effective' those modules are..... My [sarcastic] suggestion gave Gal pilots then same range as the Caldari, I made no consession to altering damp/ECM 'power' Yeah, it would be a nice solution.
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:32:00 - [218] damps are too weak
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:35:00 - [219] Originally by: Kel Solaar Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel Can you damp a BS down to 2-3km at the moment? People seem to be mainly complaining about the max range of damps vs ECM, not how 'effective' those modules are..... My [sarcastic] suggestion gave Gal pilots then same range as the Caldari, I made no consession to altering damp/ECM 'power' Yeah, it would be a nice solution. Damps are not powerful enough to perform their job - regardless of range. I wouldn't be in favor of all recons being long range no tank shutdown machines. It ruins the flavor of the races, and by extension, the game. Each race's recon should be effective in the kind of PVP they prefer. Caldari in fleets: check Minmatar in skirmishes: check Amarr in mid size gangs: check Gallente in small gang combat: no check And yes, Gallente specialize in very small gang combat (see: drones suck in fleets). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Kel Solaar Soulbound. Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:53:00 - [220] Originally by: Liang Nuren And yes, Gallente specialize in very small gang combat (see: drones suck in fleets). -Liang Really, really small :) 2vs1, 2vs2 more than that and u have a lot of chance to get toasted, weak tank, no cap, screwed ewar...
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:57:00 - [221] Originally by: Liang Nuren Caldari in fleets: check Minmatar in skirmishes: check Amarr in mid size gangs: check Gallente in small gang combat: no check And yes, Gallente specialize in very small gang combat (see: drones suck in fleets). -Liang Uhm Gallente is the best solo race because of perfect slot layouts for it and with no need to keep multiple aggressors at a certain distance. Gallente: Solo pvp. Check. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:00:00 - [222] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm Gallente is the best solo race because of perfect slot layouts for it and with no need to keep multiple aggressors at a certain distance. Gallente: Solo pvp. Check. Um, we're talking about recons here. The Gallente recon won't be solo'ing any competent pilot (let alone a competent PVP'er) these days. Besides, stop your whining, because your race's power gets a higher "effectiveness multiplier" as the gang size goes up... and who PVP's solo anymore anyway? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:03:00 - [223] Originally by: Liang Nuren and who PVP's solo anymore anyway? -Liang I do. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:05:00 - [224] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I do. Eve is a multiplayer game. Find some good friends and enjoy the teamwork. Well, that's my motto anyway. I do "solo" PVP with an alt on occasion. :-/ -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:10:00 - [225] For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:14:00 - [226] Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. No, it's stupid and boring to turn the game into Spreadsheets In Space. If you don't like being "crowd controlled", then fit a counter. Such as a sensor booster. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:17:00 - [227] Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. And hell, if you want boring game mechanics, try out POS warfare for a good dose of it. I've known dread pilots who took naps and watched movies during the battles. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:21:00 - [228] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/03/2008 18:21:57 Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. I mean, even FPS's have crowd control. Counterstrike has flashbangs and smoke grenades... and that's one of the most played games of all time. No, do not turn this game into Spreadsheets In Space. -Liang Ed: Removed some extraneous text. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:36:00 - [229] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Reto did you ever fight a vagbond with a falcon? I've fought 2 vagabonds and a Taranis with my Falcon... I got away. :) -Liang but wait a sec, xxxak said that a vagabond is exactly as good as a falcon Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:37:00 - [230] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/03/2008 18:21:57 Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. I mean, even FPS's have crowd control. Counterstrike has flashbangs and smoke grenades... and that's one of the most played games of all time. No, do not turn this game into Spreadsheets In Space. -Liang Ed: Removed some extraneous text. there is a HUGE difference between flashbangs and smokescreen that do not force you to do NOTHING. You can sill shot and move , you cannot see, but you can stll act. Non targeting in eve means basically you cannot ACT. And THAT is dumb! Sieging POSs is far more fun that watching white bar go down in your monitos then restart full again, ad infinitum. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:39:00 - [231] Originally by: Kagura Nikon there is a HUGE difference between flashbangs and smokescreen that do not force you to do NOTHING. You can sill shot and move , you cannot see, but you can stll act. Non targeting in eve means basically you cannot ACT. And THAT is dumb! Sieging POSs is far more fun that watching white bar go down in your monitos then restart full again, ad infinitum. I'd say being unable to see is roughly equivalent to not being able to target. FFS, you're running into the wall (because sitting stark still when flashbanged is asking to get headshot.) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:40:00 - [232] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 26/03/2008 18:40:38 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Nizomi Then again.. you can fit ECCM. Now imagine what happens? The gang with the falcon sees your equal sized gang and is laughing that they will pwn you to hell and back. The fight ensues and the falcon pilot is at best able to jam maybe 1 target. Oops, how did that happen? In my opinion, a good definition of "overpowered" is that you either fly it or you specifically set up against it (or you die). By your definition weapons are overpowered then :) It is rather silly to say something is overpowered because you have to defend against it. If you didn't have to defend against it, it would be useless... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:43:00 - [233] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/03/2008 18:21:57 Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. I mean, even FPS's have crowd control. Counterstrike has flashbangs and smoke grenades... and that's one of the most played games of all time. No, do not turn this game into Spreadsheets In Space. -Liang Ed: Removed some extraneous text. there is a HUGE difference between flashbangs and smokescreen that do not force you to do NOTHING. You can sill shot and move , you cannot see, but you can stll act. Non targeting in eve means basically you cannot ACT. And THAT is dumb! Sieging POSs is far more fun that watching white bar go down in your monitos then restart full again, ad infinitum. Actually, you can do plent of stuff when you're jammed. You can cycle your reps, use cap boosters, fire smart bombs, shoot FoF missiles, maneuver, warp. . . In fact the only things you can't do are those that require you to target something. In Counter Strike, being flashbanged removes your ability to do the exact same function - afterall if I can't see the target I can't target him can I? And to be fair, on the occasions I've been involved in a POS seige all I do is watch numbers click down and keep an eye on my damage overlay, so I don't find it any more exciting than being jammed.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:45:00 - [234] Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. Go play Quake and leave Eve alone. EW is the most important aspect of Eve and the only thing that makes combat different from what it is in a mindless 3D Shooter. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Dianeces Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.26 20:13:00 - [235] Originally by: Naomi Knight If a recon is op then it must be the rapier. Haha, you're a funny troll. What sort of twisted logic led you to this conclusion?
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.26 22:07:00 - [236] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/03/2008 22:08:09 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren and who PVP's solo anymore anyway? -Liang I do. I do occasionally. Not "Solo PvP with falcon alt" which is quite common these days tbh. It's a small step from "This is a mutiplayer game, get friends and enjoy the teamwork." to "Just outblob them and your problems are solved." Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 22:15:00 - [237] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. Go play Quake and leave Eve alone. EW is the most important aspect of Eve and the only thing that makes combat different from what it is in a mindless 3D Shooter. Woah there - leave Quake out of this nonsense. It didn't do anything to you. Besides, shooters are skill based games whereas Eve is a stat based game. You can't compare the two. I like both Genres personally, and I find it refreshing that when I play Eve I don't have a swarm of 12 year olds calling me a/an <insert explative of your choice> at every turn.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.26 22:38:00 - [238] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Kagura Nikon For god sake NO! no bosot for dampeners. We need LESS crowd control. Crowd control makes the game VERY boring and irritating for its victims. Ewar should be done in some different way, like TD work, they make you weaker. But not being able to lock is a NO NO, in any option, is stupid because its BORING. Go play Quake and leave Eve alone. EW is the most important aspect of Eve and the only thing that makes combat different from what it is in a mindless 3D Shooter. if you want to see what proper EWar is, go play Falcon 4. Then you can go check that YOU are the one that shoud go play quake. That is stil my preferred game, go try It and then reevaluate what is a RICH game. Eve EWAR is not ewar, is "make oponent feel frustrated". That is not good for the game. EWar shoudl be effective but without frustration like it cretes. Almost everythign in eve is lock dependent. If i get blinded in an FPS i can stuill shoot in general direction i know enemy is, I can still walk and navigate pretty well (At least 9/10 players can walk blinded in a map they played for a few weeks). In eve you can do nothing to fight back. Exception really being FOF. But those are limited to basically one race. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.26 23:04:00 - [239] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Etho Demerzel Go play Quake and leave Eve alone. EW is the most important aspect of Eve and the only thing that makes combat different from what it is in a mindless 3D Shooter. if you want to see what proper EWar is, go play Falcon 4. Then you can go check that YOU are the one that shoud go play quake. That is stil my preferred game, go try It and then reevaluate what is a RICH game. Sorry, but you are the one whining about the game. Eve is perfect to me. I don`t have the need to go see another game. If you prefer this or any other game, by any means, go play it and spare us from your whinings. Quote: Eve EWAR is not ewar, is "make oponent feel frustrated". That is not good for the game. EWar shoudl be effective but without frustration like it cretes. Almost everythign in eve is lock dependent. If i get blinded in an FPS i can stuill shoot in general direction i know enemy is, I can still walk and navigate pretty well (At least 9/10 players can walk blinded in a map they played for a few weeks). In eve you can do nothing to fight back. Exception really being FOF. But those are limited to basically one race. YOU feel frustrated. As many people feel frustrated when they are blobed, or ganked in gates, or caught in bubbles. The fact that YOU can't deal with it is YOUR problem. As mentioned above there are planty of things you can do even IF you are jammed or dampened, and a number of counters to both the EW systems and the ships who specialize on them. Using your lame example: 1) if you are blinded in a 3D shooter you can still fight in a general direction Here if you are jammed, you can still fire smartbombs, ECM bursts, and FoF missiles, and your drones will still attack whoever attacks you. 2) I can still walk and navigate pretty well (At least 9/10 players can walk blinded in a map they played for a few weeks) Here you can move freely, warp out, see everything that is happening and even bump the offenders if you wish, when dampened or jammed. So basically you have no point. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 23:46:00 - [240] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/03/2008 23:47:06 Originally by: Derek Sigres Woah there - leave Quake out of this nonsense. It didn't do anything to you. Besides, shooters are skill based games whereas Eve is a stat based game. You can't compare the two. I like both Genres personally, and I find it refreshing that when I play Eve I don't have a swarm of 12 year olds calling me a/an <insert explative of your choice> at every turn. Eve is just as skill based as Quake, actually. In Eve, no ship is dangerous without a dangerous pilot. And I'm not talking about your character. -Liang Ed: There are two replies, read the last one on page 8. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 23:56:00 - [241] Edited by: welsh wizard on 27/03/2008 00:01:20 Well aslong as the Falcon gets a 40m3 drone bay & 3 turret or missile bonused high slots then I'll be happy with an ECM effectiveness reduction to say, 10%. edit: Better it stays how it is now though, the ultimate ewar boat with no offensive ability what so ever. --------------- you all smell!
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.27 00:19:00 - [242] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 27/03/2008 00:01:20 Well aslong as the Falcon gets a 40m3 drone bay & 3 turret or missile bonused high slots then I'll be happy with an ECM effectiveness reduction to say, 10%. edit: Better it stays how it is now though, the ultimate ewar boat with no offensive ability what so ever. I am pretty sure any non falcon pilot would love that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 00:42:00 - [243] Yeah its kinda crap, I'm just trying to get a reaction out of these jokers. It's just dandy the way it is as far as I'm concerned. --------------- you all smell!
QproQ Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 00:51:00 - [244] Why not simply merge the effect of ECCM in the form of a sensor booster script? It would allow some flexibility in a common pvp module, and reduce the already strained mids of gunboats.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 00:53:00 - [245] Originally by: QproQ Why not simply merge the effect of ECCM in the form of a sensor booster script? It would allow some flexibility in a common pvp module, and reduce the already strained mids of gunboats. You know what, I kinda like it. It makes sense that a sensor booster would boost sensor strength. As long as it's a scripted effect, I'd be +1. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:26:00 - [246] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/03/2008 23:47:06 Originally by: Derek Sigres Woah there - leave Quake out of this nonsense. It didn't do anything to you. Besides, shooters are skill based games whereas Eve is a stat based game. You can't compare the two. I like both Genres personally, and I find it refreshing that when I play Eve I don't have a swarm of 12 year olds calling me a/an <insert explative of your choice> at every turn. Eve is just as skill based as Quake, actually. In Eve, no ship is dangerous without a dangerous pilot. And I'm not talking about your character. -Liang Ed: There are two replies, read the last one on page 8. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I have to disagree. Quake is a game involving rapid precise action. Very litte knowledge can be acquired to aid you (for example you may know that a rocket launcher is great for medium range, the railgun for long range, and the shotgun for close range) and you may know the map layout. That is the extent of the things you need to know to be at least somewhat successful - the rest is the rapid application of this limited knowledge set. Eve on the other hand requries me to know quite a bit - what my ship is capable of, what another ship is probably capable of, fundamentals of turret tracking, proper balancing of a fitting and a thousand other pieces of minute information. In Eve you often have time to THINK about an action before you do it, and rarely does a situation come up where absolute speed and precision of execution is necissary (for example, successfully killing a well fitted blockade runner in a gatecamp). Knowing things and understanding the principles in Eve is fundamental to being successful. Quake is a game where precision and speed of execution are the most important thing. Afterall, the Quake railgun does the exact same amount of damage for any player, therefore whoever can use that weapon the best is the victor. I guess what I'm getting at is I don't consider knowledge a skill. . . Not to derail the thread or anything.
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:29:00 - [247] If you make racial ECM a scripted effect to the multispec, I'll endorse a sensor booster ECCM script. Until that day, just like I have to dock up to switch fits for a battle, you should dock up to fit for me. . . .
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:40:00 - [248] Originally by: Derek Sigres I guess what I'm getting at is I don't consider knowledge a skill. . . Knowledge by itself is not dangerous. The application of that knowledge is dangerous. Again, there are no dangerous ships without a dangerous pilot. And a dangerous pilot makes even innocent ships deadly. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:42:00 - [249] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Derek Sigres I guess what I'm getting at is I don't consider knowledge a skill. . . Knowledge by itself is not dangerous. The application of that knowledge is dangerous. Again, there are no dangerous ships without a dangerous pilot. And a dangerous pilot makes even innocent ships deadly. -Liang That's right, no one EVER suspects the IBIS
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:46:00 - [250] Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm If you make racial ECM a scripted effect to the multispec, I'll endorse a sensor booster ECCM script. Until that day, just like I have to dock up to switch fits for a battle, you should dock up to fit for me. I think if they made both changes it would be pretty fair. I don't think the falcon is that overpowered though, as its been said, a ship intended to jam should be able to jam. If your going to nerf it, I think you would have to completely replace ECM as it exists today (otherwise you have what? Jammers that don't jam....??) Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:55:00 - [251] Originally by: Derek Sigres That's right, no one EVER suspects the IBIS I've killed frigates in an ibis. ;-) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:17:00 - [252] Amen, Haradgrim. The Falcon is NOT overpowered. Most EW is just underpowered compared to ECM. Noone was moaning about the rook before damps got nerfed. . . .
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:23:00 - [253] Scripted ECMs and a Sensor Booster Script for ECCM seem very fine to me, but first CCP must look into the Pilgrim and both Gallente Recons to put them again in their right place in the same level of the Caldari and Minmatar ones, which are just perfect as they are. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Markit Broker Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:02:00 - [254] The hic is having a bad day if they can't disable you 1v1
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:49:00 - [255] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Scripted ECMs and a Sensor Booster Script for ECCM seem very fine to me, but first CCP must look into the Pilgrim and both Gallente Recons to put them again in their right place in the same level of the Caldari and Minmatar ones, which are just perfect as they are. I hope someday you will join us, and the world will live as one. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:00:00 - [256] Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Etho Demerzel Scripted ECMs and a Sensor Booster Script for ECCM seem very fine to me, but first CCP must look into the Pilgrim and both Gallente Recons to put them again in their right place in the same level of the Caldari and Minmatar ones, which are just perfect as they are. I hope someday you will join us, and the world will live as one. "Imagine" is a nice song and all, at least accordingly to my tastes, but I am trying really hard to figure what you meant here. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:24:00 - [257] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Etho Demerzel Scripted ECMs and a Sensor Booster Script for ECCM seem very fine to me, but first CCP must look into the Pilgrim and both Gallente Recons to put them again in their right place in the same level of the Caldari and Minmatar ones, which are just perfect as they are. I hope someday you will join us, and the world will live as one. "Imagine" is a nice song and all, at least accordingly to my tastes, but I am trying really hard to figure what you meant here. That there is no amarr recon problem, or gal recon problem, or a damp problem. There is one big clusterfck that is recon/ewar balance. I think it would honestly be better to start making the buzz for a general recon/ewar redo or fix, instead of focusing on our own particular and limited lobbies. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
SpankMeElmo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:07:00 - [258] That's the nice thing about a jammer. Not only does it help you kill your enemy, but it also ****es him off (makes him very angry). (smile)
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:13:00 - [259] ECM is a bit off the charts atm. and damp is meaningless atm.
Sionide THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:19:00 - [260] Originally by: SpankMeElmo That's the nice thing about a jammer. Not only does it help you kill your enemy, but it also ****es him off (makes him very angry). (smile) Or when an 8 billion vindicator and his bhalgorn and damnation friend come looking for a fight, but their friends are permalocked...thank you for the 4 bill in loot mr. vindi. /whistles
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:21:00 - [261] Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko ECM is a bit off the charts atm. and damp is meaningless atm. Honestly, the problem is not "ECM is off the charts", it's that its "off the charts" compared to the other recently nerfed forms of offensive ewar (damps, TDs) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:26:00 - [262] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko ECM is a bit off the charts atm. and damp is meaningless atm. Honestly, the problem is not "ECM is off the charts", it's that its "off the charts" compared to the other recently nerfed forms of offensive ewar (damps, TDs) -Liang My point exactly. ECM is the only thing still off the charts. I used to use Damps frequently and had 0 skills in ECM before the damp nerf. I refused to believe that the damps were fundamentally broken but then I found that my trusty damp caracal could no longer damp a target enough to actually stay alive even in smaller skirmishes. I would LOVE to see damps become effective again, at LEAST on the recons. At the very least when you throw in a range script the damp should cut down range by as much as it did before the nerf. And I still think TD's would be infinitly better if they also screwed with missiles. I do feel bad for those gallente and amarr recon pilots, because as it stands you don't have any real reason to ever undock those ships these days.
Post Man Pat And His Black And White Cat	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:53:00 - [263] My alliance, when they want a force recon to do anything in fleet anymore they just say "falcon". Pretty much sums it up. Rapier is decent, but nothing can change the course of a battle like a falcon sitting at 250k jamming freely. Postman Pat
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:50:00 - [264] One day you will manage to get all combat ships nerfed. And then I'll be there to spam "nerf exhumers" threads in this forum until my subscription expires. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Scarlet Pimpernel Clan Eshin	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:58:00 - [265] Edited by: Scarlet Pimpernel on 27/03/2008 19:59:04 Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm Noone was moaning about the rook before damps got nerfed. Exactly The Falcon is no more powerful (ECM-wise) than the Rook (in fact the Rook got changed to make sure the Falcon wasn't a better jammer) Yet the Rook has more firepower, a longer lock range, can lock more targets, has better resists, has more shield, has a higher sensor strength, a smaller sig and a better scan resolution). The _only_ things the Falcon has going for it is the ability to warp cloaked (and a higher cloaked speed) and slightly more cap. But no one used to complain about the Rook....... While I remember, why don't combat recons get the cloaked velocity bonus the Stealth Bombers and Black Ops do?......
Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:19:00 - [266] Increase optimal range on damps to 150km, problem solved. -- Zuba
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:33:00 - [267] Originally by: Zubakis Increase optimal range on damps to 150km, problem solved. A non-chance based, non-racial damp with a range of 150km? Yea... solved alright. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:42:00 - [268] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Zubakis Increase optimal range on damps to 150km, problem solved. A non-chance based, non-racial damp with a range of 150km? Yea... solved alright. Why should it be chance-based? Racial? I dont understand your point, please elaborate. If i need something chance-based and racial, i take ecm. Seriously, with this change damps will force you into close range, that's how they should work. In close range damps are not really effective and that is ok for me. -- Zuba
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:45:00 - [269] Of course, Caldari recons should not be able to sit at rediculous ranges and use their EW, that would almost be a reasonable trade off for the uselessness of the extreme range our gunnery system is meant to be used at...... Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:49:00 - [270] Edited by: Ogul on 27/03/2008 20:50:27 Originally by: Zubakis Why should it be chance-based? Racial? I dont understand your point, please elaborate. If i need something chance-based and racial, i take ecm. Seriously, with this change damps will force you into close range, that's how they should work. In close range damps are not really effective and that is ok for me. That is kind of the point here. If dampening had the same range as ECM and none of its drawbacks it would be a hell of a lot better than ECM. And I had assumed you were being sarcastic in the earlier post. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Brodde Dim Unseen University Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.27 20:58:00 - [271] Originally by: Ogul That is kind of the point here. If dampening had the same range as ECM and none of its drawbacks it would be a hell of a lot better than ECM. And I had assumed you were being sarcastic in the earlier post. One drawback is that it is useless at close range. Not only if they are close to you, but if they are close to your friends.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:16:00 - [272] Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, the problem is not "ECM is off the charts", it's that its "off the charts" compared to the other recently nerfed forms of offensive ewar (damps, TDs) -Liang Honestly all other forms of EW is right where it should be and its actually ecm that is off the charts. Its a matter of oppinion and not right or wrong tbh... -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:35:00 - [273] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, the problem is not "ECM is off the charts", it's that its "off the charts" compared to the other recently nerfed forms of offensive ewar (damps, TDs) -Liang Honestly all other forms of EW is right where it should be and its actually ecm that is off the charts. Its a matter of oppinion and not right or wrong tbh... Well that's the difference between a game and spreadsheets in space. I'll take a game, please. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.27 23:00:00 - [274] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, the problem is not "ECM is off the charts", it's that its "off the charts" compared to the other recently nerfed forms of offensive ewar (damps, TDs) -Liang Honestly all other forms of EW is right where it should be and its actually ecm that is off the charts. Its a matter of oppinion and not right or wrong tbh... I subscribe to this newsletter. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
William DeMeo Thunder Talons HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.03.27 23:30:00 - [275] trolly troll is trolly. Yarr
Danny Centurai New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:10:00 - [276] As we all should know by now Falcons and Rooks are gang ships if they were soloWTFpwnage mobiles there would be a problem. Also they die really easily, sensor damps make them useless, rapiers and pilgrims landing on them really hurts them, stealth bombers screw them over constantly, hacs charge them. They are a very killable ship they don't need nerfing or we will all end up like the poor Amarr.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:12:00 - [277] Originally by: Danny Centurai As we all should know by now Falcons and Rooks are gang ships if they were soloWTFpwnage mobiles there would be a problem. Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Scarlet Pimpernel Clan Eshin	Posted - 2008.03.28 15:38:00 - [278] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Danny Centurai As we all should know by now Falcons and Rooks are gang ships if they were soloWTFpwnage mobiles there would be a problem. Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. Or you could fit ECCM/sensor backups.....
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 16:43:00 - [279] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. that's not true. I've fought against gangs with a Falcon and won. Without one. Honestly, it sounds like you're just whining because you want Eve: Spreadsheets In Space to launch. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 17:32:00 - [280] Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Danny Centurai As we all should know by now Falcons and Rooks are gang ships if they were soloWTFpwnage mobiles there would be a problem. Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. Or you could fit ECCM/sensor backups..... sure, if they get fixed. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Radcjk Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.28 17:40:00 - [281] Ive fought against a gang with a falcon, no ecm on our side, and won. The term is 'primary target'.. .try it ? Also boohoo on sensor damps, even if hey dont act like high cap / no chance ecm any more thy still force ships to leave or get into omgwtf gallente drone / blaster range. My manticore mounts 2. Named, nothing special. Those two damps -still- keep things like distanced hurricanes and drakes off my ass while I cruise missile their haulers. Thay cant suck that bad on a dedicated ship.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:26:00 - [282] I'll just add: the falcon is probably the most lost ship by unskilled pilots, discuss Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:28:00 - [283] Falcons are overpowered end of. 3 Falcons basically locking down 7 battleships is so stupid - just happened to my corp. No not permajammed - yes they miss jam cycles but you tackle anybody (nano gang) - BAM your jammed. So effectively you can't lock them down - you can't kill them. Anybody who says otherwise is a moron or has never pvped or is a falcon pilot themselves.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:48:00 - [284] Originally by: Chr0nosX Falcons are overpowered end of. 3 Falcons basically locking down 7 battleships is so stupid - just happened to my corp. No not permajammed - yes they miss jam cycles but you tackle anybody (nano gang) - BAM your jammed. So effectively you can't lock them down - you can't kill them. Anybody who says otherwise is a moron or has never pvped or is a falcon pilot themselves. So 7 battleships without ewar support should be able to wtfpwn anything that doesn't involve 7 other battleships? Eve: Spreadsheets In Space, lauching near you! You didn't have a good gang composition and got pwnt - deal with it. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:13:00 - [285] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Chr0nosX Falcons are overpowered end of. 3 Falcons basically locking down 7 battleships is so stupid - just happened to my corp. No not permajammed - yes they miss jam cycles but you tackle anybody (nano gang) - BAM your jammed. So effectively you can't lock them down - you can't kill them. Anybody who says otherwise is a moron or has never pvped or is a falcon pilot themselves. So 7 battleships without ewar support should be able to wtfpwn anything that doesn't involve 7 other battleships? Eve: Spreadsheets In Space, lauching near you! You didn't have a good gang composition and got pwnt - deal with it. -Liang No but 3 falons shouldn't be able to lock down 7 BS. In case you didn't know Hacs, ceptors and other recons (nearly) have the same sensor strength - so they would have been jammed just as easily. So even if our gangs had other ships we still would of died.
Quirc HeartVenom Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:20:00 - [286] Please refer. Could you really, truly say no to that face? Also, I don't believe this is incredibly overpowered at all. So somebody found an effective way to use electronic warfare on you. Fine, great. Fit ECCM, use other ships to counter the jamming (Dampeners to nerf their lock range, perhaps?), smacktalk them in local. Do something... not whining on the forums. Of course, I'm saying this and A: doing the same thing and B: Saying something completely pointless because the EvE client went to Steam and as such, all hope is lost. But really, this is not a game where you can uber-equalize everything and get a masterpiece, so can we stop trying? ECM is fine as it is, adapt or live in highsec the rest of your life. Everyone does not have a falcon (hell, I have the choice of every recon in the game and I'm always flying a Rapier), the world is not out to get you people, just... stop whining. Please? Would you be whining at that falcon in the picture? Think about it. Yeah, being permajammed isn't fun, but there ARE game mechanics in place to effectively defeat it. Utilize these mechanics and retain your flexibility in combat.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:26:00 - [287] Originally by: Chr0nosX No but 3 falons shouldn't be able to lock down 7 BS. In case you didn't know Hacs, ceptors and other recons (nearly) have the same sensor strength - so they would have been jammed just as easily. So even if our gangs had other ships we still would of died. No, you have no idea how to PVP. So you all load up in ECCM-less battleships and go lumbering out amongst the enemy, saying "yarr, we be going to kill you and get yer plunders! yar har har!" Oh, wait, someone was prepared for you, and you got spanked. I'm crying for you. I promise. But lets talk about your actual expectations, rather than what happened, because your problem lies in your expectation that a "battleship" is the be-all end-all of Eve PVP. So how many "battleships" should a recon ship be able to lock down? If a recon can only lock down one battleship (and provide no other useful function), why should anyone fly it? You'd get more effect out of... a battleship. Yep, you guessed it, the "ultimate gang" becomes N battleships, where N is the number of people in your gang. That surely sounds fun. Also, 3 recons, 7 battleships - that's just over 2 battleships locked down per recon. Yeah, you just got spanked by a numerically superior gang with a better gang composition. Get over it. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Scarlet Pimpernel Clan Eshin	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:40:00 - [288] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer sure, if they get fixed. In my experience they work just fine (I often fit them to my Scorp/Falcon/Rook if I know the other guys have ECM) What makes you say/think they are broken? Originally by: Chr0nosX No but 3 falons shouldn't be able to lock down 7 BS. In case you didn't know Hacs, ceptors and other recons (nearly) have the same sensor strength - so they would have been jammed just as easily. So even if our gangs had other ships we still would of died. I can pretty much lock down 2/3 BS in a Blackbird, sounds like your complaint is about ECM not the Falcon specifically However Recons have a significantly higher sensor strength than other ships. Rook has 32, Scorpion has 24, Eagle has 18 and Crow has 12 (remember Caldari tend to have the highest sensor strengths of all races) so they are not remotely close to being the same
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:43:00 - [289] Originally by: Liang Nuren No, you have no idea how to PVP. So you all load up in ECCM-less battleships and go lumbering out amongst the enemy, saying "yarr, we be going to kill you and get yer plunders! yar har har!" I know how to PvP. You know nothing about me. Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh, wait, someone was prepared for you, and you got spanked. I'm crying for you. I promise. Prepared? You mean they had falcons so yeah they were prepared, they were prepared for every gang because falcons are overpowered. Originally by: Liang Nuren But lets talk about your actual expectations, rather than what happened, because your problem lies in your expectation that a "battleship" is the be-all end-all of Eve PVP. Nope never said that. Originally by: Liang Nuren So how many "battleships" should a recon ship be able to lock down? If a recon can only lock down one battleship (and provide no other useful function), why should anyone fly it? A recon should be able to lock down 1 and a bit BS. Therefore they can be useful. An arazu atm can lock down 1 if that. Arazu needs buff, falcon needs nerf. Originally by: Liang Nuren You'd get more effect out of... a battleship. Yep, you guessed it, the "ultimate gang" becomes N battleships, where N is the number of people in your gang. Ehhhh. Never said BS is be all end all. This is about falcons not my gang composition. Originally by: Liang Nuren That surely sounds fun. Also, 3 recons, 7 battleships - that's just over 2 battleships locked down per recon. Yeah, you just got spanked by a numerically superior gang with a better gang composition. Get over it. -Liang A gang containing a falcon is a better gang composition now? Oh ill remember that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:52:00 - [290] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Danny Centurai As we all should know by now Falcons and Rooks are gang ships if they were soloWTFpwnage mobiles there would be a problem. Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. With the exception of about 6 months from mid 2007 ECM has always been this powerful. It was crap during the 6 months that not many people flew ECM ships which is why CCP buffed it. The problem is you and this chronosx joker above. You're bashing it before you've even tried to deal with it, tbh you're probably just crap at the game mate. o7 --------------- you all smell!
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:54:00 - [291] Originally by: Chr0nosX I know how to PvP. You know nothing about me. I know that you think that a battleship is easily the equal of any recon or HAC - in any situation. Quote: Prepared? You mean they had falcons so yeah they were prepared, they were prepared for every gang because falcons are overpowered. No, you said that they came in HACs and recons, and got your 7 man battleship gang. They had 3 falcons, so I assume that they brought a fair bit of DPS too. I hate to say it, but I bet they'd have won even without the falcons. Quote: Nope never said that. You rather strongly implied it, actually. Quote: A recon should be able to lock down 1 and a bit BS. Therefore they can be useful. An arazu atm can lock down 1 if that. Arazu needs buff, falcon needs nerf. Ok, so if a Huginn fit its mids with all webs and a MWD, it would be "overpowered", because it "shut down" a bunch of battleships. Got it. Also, the Arazu can't even lock down 1 BS - it's much closer to 0.5 Battleships to the falcon/rook averaging 2-2.5 battleships. If the Arazu was closer to 1 - 1.5 to the Falcon's 2-2.5, all would be well in recon land (barring the Pilgrim). But essentially, you're asking that a recon have no offense, no defense, and no real purpose. I promise you that if recons were limited to one target locked down that nobody would fly one. You'd be better off in a battleship and simply kill your enemy that much faster. But speaking of "battleships", what do you think of the Scorpion? Also only able to take out one other battleship? Maybe 1.5 battleships? Quote: Ehhhh. Never said BS is be all end all. This is about falcons not my gang composition. Actually, this is exactly about your gang composition - you said you took a 7 man battleship gang out and got spanked. The deciding factor was 3 falcons, thus (because your uber gang died) they must be overpowered. Quote: A gang containing a falcon is a better gang composition now? Oh ill remember that. You do that, because a mixed gang is always the best solution. It's funny, because a single isthar and/or clever use of FOF's and drones would have probably saved the day. Nope, you simply don't have a good idea how to fit counters or how to use drones. But I'll give you a hint: If you want to win at Eve, nerf players. Actually, nerf me. because almost no matter what I bring, I'm likely to spank your ass. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Quirc HeartVenom Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:58:00 - [292] Originally by: Chr0nosX rabble, rabble rabble! I first want to point out that what I'm going to say does not in any way help the thread. We got that? Good. Now then.. Go back to whatever game you played where people listened to your whining, made everything statistically and mind-numbingly equalized, and turned things into a game of statistics and pure nerdism. Please leave my EvE alone. Saying that, my Arazu has no problem taking care of two battleships if I'm ever flying one. Maybe my gang and I just know how to utilize dampeners efficiently. Or maybe... we just know what we're doing in general. Also, if a recon could "jam one and a bit BS" then why would I fly one? Doesn't seem worth it to me to take such an expensive asset into combat knowing that, MAYBE, I can jam that one Apocalypse over there... as for the other three that can snipe the crap out of me, oh well, I should have brought three other Falcons? I think I like ECM how it is.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:19:00 - [293] Originally by: Scarlet Pimpernel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer sure, if they get fixed. In my experience they work just fine (I often fit them to my Scorp/Falcon/Rook if I know the other guys have ECM) What makes you say/think they are broken? In my experience they dont. If a falcon wants to jam you, he'll jam you and it doesnt matter what defense youve fitted. Its stupid. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:21:00 - [294] Originally by: welsh wizard Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. With the exception of about 6 months from mid 2007 ECM has always been this powerful. It was crap during those 6 months so not many people flew ECM ships which is why CCP buffed it. The problem isnt the game its you and this chronosx joker above, you're bashing it before you've even attempted to deal with it (my assumption). Maybe you should play something a bit easier? o7 Huh? Ive prolly seen more sides of eve pvp then youll ever see. ECM sucks and is killing the spirit of the game. Maybe you should go look for another game if you can only play with ECM ships. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:22:00 - [295] Originally by: Liang Nuren Blah. I don't have the time to explain why your useless dribble is wrong. On battleclinic it looks like your a falcon alt (136 kills). Therefore I prove my point - anybody who would disagree with me is a falcon alt or a moron or has never pvped.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:25:00 - [296] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: welsh wizard Yes but we dont want them totally dominating and killing small gang warfare. With small gangs its either you bring your own falcon or you lose to a gang with a falcon. With the exception of about 6 months from mid 2007 ECM has always been this powerful. It was crap during those 6 months so not many people flew ECM ships which is why CCP buffed it. The problem isnt the game its you and this chronosx joker above, you're bashing it before you've even attempted to deal with it (my assumption). Maybe you should play something a bit easier? o7 Huh? Ive prolly seen more sides of eve pvp then youll ever see. ECM sucks and is killing the spirit of the game. Maybe you should go look for another game if you can only play with ECM ships. You're like I was 18 months ago, arguing anything and everything on these silly forums without any real evidence and just a subjective opinion. I have no desire to get into a **ing contest with you but lets just say I've seen my fair share of Eve, far more than any 2006 character has anyway. --------------- you all smell!**
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:32:00 - [297] Originally by: Chr0nosX Originally by: Liang Nuren Blah. I don't have the time to explain why your useless dribble is wrong. On battleclinic it looks like your a falcon alt (136 kills). Therefore I prove my point - anybody who would disagree with me is a falcon alt or a moron or has never pvped. Hahahahahaha, yeah, I have a dozen kills in a falcon and suddenly I'm a "falcon alt". Very cute. Mind looking at those stats again? :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:43:00 - [298] Originally by: Liang Nuren Hahahahahaha, yeah, I have a dozen kills in a falcon and suddenly I'm a "falcon alt". Very cute. Mind looking at those stats again? :) -Liang Well I thought as you had a small amount of kills it was because your an alt. I looked though - your an 07 player probably don't have much experience in PvP altogether. Originally by: Vim Falcon needs the 15% over 20% to make rook viable, or something such. Arazu/lach need something going for them and ehm, pilgrim... idk, never bought one, love the curse \o/ I wont mention matar recons, they do their job very well. Give eccm maybe a bit of a boost to. Yep I agree. Love you Vim.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:51:00 - [299] Originally by: Chr0nosX Well I thought as you had a small amount of kills it was because your an alt. I looked though - your an 07 player probably don't have much experience in PvP altogether. Well, I am one of many... but I wouldn't really call any of them "alts". I was laughing in reference to you calling me a "falcon alt", despite the fact that (statistically) I have a strong preference for Myrmidons, Helioses, and Arazus. And Ishtars more recently. Also, I'd say we probably have very similar PVP experience amounts, judging from your PVP history on battleclinic (neither of us are likely even close to complete there). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:56:00 - [300] Originally by: Liang Nuren Well, I am one of many... but I wouldn't really call any of them "alts". I was laughing in reference to you calling me a "falcon alt", despite the fact that (statistically) I have a strong preference for Myrmidons, Helioses, and Arazus. And Ishtars more recently. Also, I'd say we probably have very similar PVP experience amounts, judging from your PVP history on battleclinic (neither of us are likely even close to complete there). -Liang Well I was just looking at the stats at battleclinic - all I have, showed you flying falcons quite a bit. Im not sure about your other characters - anyway Im going out in a BS gang to get spanked by some more falcons (we have ECCM now) so now we will see how ECCM works.
Vim Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.28 23:30:00 - [301] Edited by: Vim on 28/03/2008 23:33:03 That is actually something there, but the main usage of both ships is ecm, few will bother about anything else besides getting faraway, preferably unseen and ecm the enemy till its all done. The falcon is in any small engagment a trumph card since it cant be readily seen till deployed, this makes people think: We can win this, yeah no probs! And then suddenly they cant do anything due to all being jammed, which is a quite frustrating experience as your friends are being picked off like if they were nothing more then last years turkey =) Ofc if you take a gang out and dont expect ecm, your a fool. But do we bother about preparing for damps nowdays, tracking dises? Not so much(I fear TD's :( ), the main fear is to encounter ecm, talking about non nanoblobs here ofc where webs and neuts hurt; altough ecm bringing nanos vs non ecm bringing nanos means ewar side kicks ass o_o The pro of the falcon and the main source for the whines is the distance it can deploy its ewar from compared to other. This makes it very hard to cope with, send a nanohac over? It will ecm and warpoff, redeploy and keep pestering while taking one or more resources out of the fight since they are hunting the falcon; while its not even using its ecm. Ofc this is true for many ships but none other offers the 20s of doom to 2-3 ships. My closerange megas(Usualy seen doing stupid things in thoose, noone remembers 90-100% to win odds :P) nowdays come in two kinds, one with eccm and a remote rep and one with a heavy neut and web instead of eccm. Does it help? Heck yes it have said my buttocks! I do remember a naughty rook that warps in on me in a belt, tackles me(!), ecms me(!) and kills my poor rupture. I was quite o_O at the time since I realy didnt see it coming :P edit: Err, my main point was going to be that giving up 5% strength for being a cloaking hard to catch very long distance force equalizer wouldnt hurt. I dont know what happened, I should go sleep =)
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.29 00:16:00 - [302] Originally by: welsh wizard You're like I was 18 months ago, arguing anything and everything on these silly forums without any real evidence and just a subjective opinion. I have no desire to get into a ****ing contest with you but lets just say I've seen my fair share of Eve, far more than any 2006 character has anyway. So when are you then finally going to admit that ECM is out of balance? Because you know it is. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.29 00:21:00 - [303] Originally by: Chr0nosX Well I was just looking at the stats at battleclinic - all I have, showed you flying falcons quite a bit. Im not sure about your other characters - anyway Im going out in a BS gang to get spanked by some more falcons (we have ECCM now) so now we will see how ECCM works. 3 kills out of 136 recorded by battleclinic is "quite a bit"? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.29 00:26:00 - [304] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Paper's fine, nerf rokh -Scissors So when are you going to finally admit that lasers are out of balance? You know they are, especially when they're shooting at shield tanks. 0% EM resist FTL. Even the Curse is a 1 man pwn machine, able to take on 3 vagabonds at a time and wtfpwn them all (and we all know how overpowered the Vagabond is!) What? It's just as true as claiming that ECM is overpowered. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.29 00:31:00 - [305] Originally by: Liang Nuren So when are you going to finally admit that lasers are out of balance? You know they are, especially when they're shooting at shield tanks. 0% EM resist FTL. Even the Curse is a 1 man pwn machine, able to take on 3 vagabonds at a time and wtfpwn them all (and we all know how overpowered the Vagabond is!) What? It's just as true as claiming that ECM is overpowered. -Liang But amarr need to have the strongest weapons. Why? -Amarr cant have enslaved minmatar with crummy weaponry, background story fails. -Amarr have prettiest weapon effects, that must be the best. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.29 00:43:00 - [306] Originally by: Liang Nuren 3 kills out of 136 recorded by battleclinic is "quite a bit"? -Liang Only 9 known ships used altogether. 3/9 = quite a bit yes.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.29 00:50:00 - [307] Originally by: Chr0nosX Only 9 known ships used altogether. 3/9 = quite a bit yes. Really like to stretch it, don't you? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.29 01:02:00 - [308] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Chr0nosX Only 9 known ships used altogether. 3/9 = quite a bit yes. Really like to stretch it, don't you? -Liang What? P.S. Log in ingame.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.29 02:24:00 - [309] Edited by: welsh wizard on 29/03/2008 02:26:36 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: welsh wizard You're like I was 18 months ago, arguing anything and everything on these silly forums without any real evidence and just a subjective opinion. I have no desire to get into a **ing contest with you but lets just say I've seen my fair share of Eve, far more than any 2006 character has anyway. So when are you then finally going to admit that ECM is out of balance? Because you know it is. Never, it was overpowered when every monkey was fitting it on their velator, then it was hit hard and Scorpions, Rooks & Falcons became a rare site. As a result CCP buffed it because the ships were completely crap at well, everything... It isn't going to change again except maybe a reduction to 15% strength on the falcon because these ships are supposed to be fight deciders. The skill is in the counter of which (despite your opinion) there are many. You come in here telling us that ECM is overpowered and you're faced with a bunch of people who have played the game for upwards of 3-5 years telling you that it isnt. The evidence is everywhere, ECM hasn't changed much (in terms of effectiveness) since 2004 and guess what? People are still learning how to counter it with ease. I'm guessing you lost an engagement because of a few ECM boats? Big whoop, we've all been there. Learn how to counter it and come back fighting... I've lead fleets & small gangs that have done it many a time and will continue to do it because I've spent the last 4 years learning how. Oh and ECCM does work well. It's no use looking at the effect against a single ship because you're never going to face a single Rook/Falcon/Scorpion/generic ECM alone are you? If your entire gang/fleet fits ECCM then you reduce your fleets chance of getting jammed by about 20-50%. Thats a huge margin dude, end of story. Remember it only takes one of your mates ships unjammed to get a few rounds off at an ECM boat and its gone. If its at 4,856km then get a covert spot on it/fly a fast ship at it. If you can't do that then thats your problem not the ships. --------------- you all smell!**

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