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Adira Barek
Tillistrian Enterprises The Methodical Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.02.28 20:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello all, well as many of us already know eve online does not have a Linux client yet. Windows Users and Mac users have their clients but not us Linux users. I am Starting this petition for eve to make us a client, So the we can fully enjoy the game without work around like we have to now. We are a very big community of gamers in which help in many ways in the community of Linux. So can I please get every one that wants to sign this petition to post a reply Saying " I Vote Yes to a Linux Client". Thank you every one for your time and consideration. Safe Flying |
Elegbara
White Wolf Enterprises Harmonious Ascent
70
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Posted - 2012.02.28 20:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Uh. No?
I'd vote for "Testing with wine" and/or "Hiring a dedicated Linux programmer to fix bugs in wine which hinder eve". But not another wine distribution bundled with eve client, thank you. |
Adira Barek
Tillistrian Enterprises The Methodical Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.02.28 20:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
I can understand every ones fear of this happening in the sense of them messing it up bad and making it more of a problem than a remedy, but isn't that what the Linux development community does we strive for things to be accepted in our way to, Also to help out in anyway we can in these Developments. Windows is a primary operating system Linux is pushed back into the closet and forgot about. I say Give them a chance and one all things have come and they have done there best then make the choice to accept the new client or to throw it away. they have come a long way in many things. lets give them a chance and Give us a chance to truly enjoy the way we choose to compute and game. |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
107
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Posted - 2012.02.28 21:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
There was a Linux client before, it wasn't native but used Cedega to wrap the Windows client.
Premium graphics weren't supported in the Linux client, so no one used it (to get premium graphics, they ran the Windows Premium client under Wine). This led to Linux support being dropped about 3 years ago.
The existing Mac client is not native but uses a similar wrapper solution. A truly NATIVE Linux client would require all of the DirectX programming to be converted to OpenGL and that's not likely to happen.
Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Adira Barek
Tillistrian Enterprises The Methodical Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.02.28 21:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well weather they mack a all native Linux client to do as your post describes im on board for ither |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
24
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Posted - 2012.02.28 23:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Better if they just treat current Wine releases as a proper version of Windows to support. |
Bent Barrel
30
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Posted - 2012.02.29 09:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am with Elegbara on this one ... |
Hosedna
FumbleFamily Corp
1
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Posted - 2012.02.29 09:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Same for me ! |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
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Posted - 2012.02.29 11:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's again the "ask for a native client" period of the year?
If the result is anywhere near what the original CCP Linux client, then please no. Asking them to rewrite the graphic codepath for OpenGL instead of DirectX is frankly asking too much.
The best we can do is to keep nudging the devs into unofficially testing the client against current WINE, but that's it.
I'd vote for a "best effort" request to CCP to include a way to identify a Windows client running under WINE, so to be able to be counted as linux users. A settings option, a config keyword, some code to fetch WINE registry keys (but be known that's an unreliable method, deprecated by WINE devs), whatever. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Zaaark Quasar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Linux is future, CCP should be part of it. |
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Zaaark Quasar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Elegbara wrote:Uh. No?
I'd vote for "Testing with wine" and/or "Hiring a dedicated Linux programmer to fix bugs in wine which hinder eve". But not another wine distribution bundled with eve client, thank you. Wine is crap, and always will be. Also in future there will not be need for Wine, since Windows is down. Touche. |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
36
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Posted - 2012.03.04 20:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Actually, they should target Wine as their primary Windows target. Then they'd have optimum compatability with all platforms with only a single build ;) |
Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
65
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Posted - 2012.03.06 00:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zaaark Quasar wrote: Also in future there will not be need for Wine, since Windows is down. Touche.
Wouldn't you agree that if Windows is down there would be even more need for wine because of all the legacy win32 software you couldn't use anymore like old games and stuff? |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
61
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Posted - 2012.03.06 09:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zaaark Quasar wrote:since Windows is down In what parallel universe?
Sure not in ours. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Dawiid BenAimaic
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
1
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Posted - 2012.03.13 17:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
I have an old Windows XP box with 2GB of ram and a quad core Linux box with 8GB of ram. I would like to run Eve on my new machine so YES for Linux.
Be nice if there were a sticky at the top with instructions for installing on Linux. Be nice if the person maintaining that sticky actually worked for CCP. |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
0
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Posted - 2012.03.14 02:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:It's again the "ask for a native client" period of the year? The best we can do is to keep nudging the devs into unofficially testing the client against current WINE, but that's it.
I agree. For the present day that would be good enough. At this moment, we (linux users) just need access to CQ. Except CQ (game crashes on entering it) everything's working fine. Though, I think it would be great if CCP asked WINE developers' cooperation, maybe even under NDA. For the sake of both EVE and Linux. Like someone said, Linux is the future. |
Darkpepper
Ksatra Varuna Talocan United
0
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Posted - 2012.03.14 07:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
We do not need a native version, Eve seems to use DX and VCRun so a linux version would just mean : rewrite the game.
No, but if CCP just take a day before each new release to test EVE under Wine/POL/Cedega whatever and POST the solution to make it run... it would be great.
All what we can do here is to guess what is going wrong .. maybe we have to change this DLL for the native one... ? ... or not ?
But CCP has the source and is able to test and understand what's going on very quickly...
There are a lot of linux users playing Eve
I think, It's not a lot of time to spend :
-Adding a "under linux" test to the bench -Posting a methodology
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Kuroi Aurgnet
Guilt Brigade Blitzkrieg Federation Of The Dumpster Punchers
12
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
I KNOW! they should make eve open source and let linux users recode it for linux!
trolling aside, it would be nice if they could do SOMETHING for the linux community because i feel like it might increase their player base a little bit. The problem here is its just one more thing that we ALL know CCP is too lazy to do, if you look at their track record. You might be better off begging the makers of WINE to rebuild WINE in a way that it would support games better, because you'll get the same effect. But in all seriousness, my troll idea up there is a decent one in a way that if they have a team of people willing to do it, then they should just have that team of people sign some contract saying they wont steal data and let THEM do it....
incoherent paragraph translated: It would be nice but no one is going to do it
Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then. |
LordArcher
Red Alpha Strike
0
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Posted - 2012.03.18 00:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:I KNOW! they should make eve open source and let linux users recode it for linux!
As much as I want to agree with you Kuroi, the reason the don't can be most easily summarised by auto-pilot. If users were allowed to edit the source code then balancing features like the warp in distance on auto-pilot would be gone. I am all for open source and wish there could be a version of EVE that was (I've been dreaming of an open source league of legends for a while!), but that unfortunately breaks the game due to people who would make bots. The bastards!
One simple little change I wish they would make, wouldn't even have to be in the game, simple have a box to state what your primary OS is on your account settings outside of game. This would be relatively simple, just a minor database edit, and would help give them some more appropriate data. |
Erika Bronz
Nidaros Fritidsforening
0
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Posted - 2012.03.18 00:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
I support any and all forms of Linux compability. Install from Synaptic would be perfect, however I doubt it will ever happen.
Edit: I would even agree to pay a higher monthly fee for a native client. |
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Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
70
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Posted - 2012.03.18 01:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
I hate to **** into everyone's cheerios (including myself, mind you); I'm in TEST, so I guess it's almost a duty for me.
But the devs already check the builds against WINE. They stated, more than once, that in the devs team there are some die-hard linux fans, playing their own game on linux. "Confessions" gathered during fanfests and other equally informal venues. They keep loving us (the very existence of this forum is a testament), but just can't be too loud about it. Remember: development != management!
I remind you all that CCP is born basically as a Microsoft shop. This changed during the years (official linux client - albeit non native, DUST on PS3, winks to the mobile world, not dominated by Redmond, etc.), but they will never recode the engine out of the DX nightmare it is now.
And, as you probably noticed, every major release is a huge pile of problems for EVERY platform. Take a look at the Issues thread in the Information Portal (first forum), and you'll see pages and pages of bugs, workarounds, half-fixes, and announces of further updates. And that's for Windows, their main target platform!
Linux is the future, but the present isn't. Not that I like it - in fact, I don't. If we can keep playing after all these years and builds, we should thank their work, the work of WINE devs, and the self-help of the community.
Still, don't hold your breath for a native client. We got a lot from CCP. We can ask more. We just can't pretend more. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Kuroi Aurgnet
Guilt Brigade Blitzkrieg Federation Of The Dumpster Punchers
12
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Posted - 2012.03.18 03:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would just like to point out before that the whole "let the linux users do it" was a troll comment because that would SERIOUSLY be a breach of security on CCPs part.
Its basically as katrina says, it aint really going to happen, as much as some of us would love it, because the game was BUILT around microsoft. as is every major game nowadays. And while there are people SMART enough to recode it into linux, right now the audience is STILL too small for the price theyd have to pay to get it done. But hey, i mean, at least they will acknowledge linux now, thats a lot more than one could ask in other games. who knows, maybe in a few years, someone will have a better solution for linux as it grows and evolves
someone should really make a MMO that is based in linux that has decent graphics though, just saying. kick all those microsoft people in the nads
Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then. |
Bent Barrel
45
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Posted - 2012.03.18 08:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:I hate to **** into everyone's cheerios (including myself, mind you); I'm in TEST, so I guess it's almost a duty for me.
But the devs already check the builds against WINE. They stated, more than once, that in the devs team there are some die-hard linux fans, playing their own game on linux. "Confessions" gathered during fanfests and other equally informal venues. They keep loving us (the very existence of this forum is a testament), but just can't be too loud about it. Remember: development != management!
I remind you all that CCP is born basically as a Microsoft shop. This changed during the years (official linux client - albeit non native, DUST on PS3, winks to the mobile world, not dominated by Redmond, etc.), but they will never recode the engine out of the DX nightmare it is now.
And, as you probably noticed, every major release is a huge pile of problems for EVERY platform. Take a look at the Issues thread in the Information Portal (first forum), and you'll see pages and pages of bugs, workarounds, half-fixes, and announces of further updates. And that's for Windows, their main target platform!
Linux is the future, but the present isn't. Not that I like it - in fact, I don't. If we can keep playing after all these years and builds, we should thank their work, the work of WINE devs, and the self-help of the community.
Still, don't hold your breath for a native client. We got a lot from CCP. We can ask more. We just can't pretend more.
sure they do ... windows XP laptop - no issues at all, launcher and patching went great. linux box at home, took me 2 days to get it to run and had to wipe my wineprefix and settings to get it to work ... not tallking about the performance regresion (had sync fps before 1.5 in station, now I am at 30% of previous values).
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Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
70
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Posted - 2012.03.19 14:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:sure they do ... windows XP laptop - no issues at all, launcher and patching went great. linux box at home, took me 2 days to get it to run and had to wipe my wineprefix and settings to get it to work ... not tallking about the performance regresion (had sync fps before 1.5 in station, now I am at 30% of previous values).
So what?
Our platform is unsupported. There's not even a "best effort" commitment. I know it works. I know it took many hoops to jump thru. I know its performance is abysmal (but that's been acknowledged and it's being corrected).
Obligatory car analogy:
Buy a car. Pour some home brewed wine (see what I did here?) in the fuel tank. Go complain at the manufacturer that your car doesn't run anymore. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Inanna Zuni
ZuniCorp
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Last week I took the very sad decision that after six years in-game (and also being an elected member of the first CSM) it was time for me to stop even _trying_ to play EVE. Why? Because the recent introduction of a mandatory launcher has meant that individual patches are no longer downloadable, making my linux machines unusable for EVE.
Now when I tweeted about this I had a number of people questioning why I was complaining as "there is no linux support"/"no official linux client"/etc. to which my comment that CCP _used_ to recognise that some of the people paying their dues used linux and were happy to do so, playing the game under Wine even though it required jumping through some hoops, plus there is this _officially supplied_ forum on linux. But those points fell on deaf ears as the "go buy M$ or an Apple" crowd piled in.
I agree that a 'native' client in the way the old linux one was (ie wrapped) isn't really wanted. But the change from the past ability to 'install' EVE under Wine was appreciated by many - though CCP have no idea _how_ many because we linux users appear to be windows muppets - but this launcher change effectively puts an end to that for many (if not all) linux users.
I'd really like to think I'll be back in pod one day (hell, on one character I've got 1.9m spare SP waiting for the coming Station skills!) but as of now that is looking unlikely.
ps. *NO*, you can't have my stuff! |
Hamandreel Endashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 00:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
The news about the launcher interfering with Wine setups is a bit disappointing for me. I've been going through the process of getting Ubuntu rolling on an HP Touchpad I acquired a little while back (takes a little while since I only get an hour here & there to mess with it). My goal is to get EVE operational on it- which I had been given to understand at least HAS been possible prior to the Launcher introduction.
I'm still fairly new to digging around Linux, so this probably sounds a silly question:
If the problem is the patcher not working under Wine, would it be possible to simply copy the updated EVE client from a Windows-based machine when patches were released?
I'll probably find the answer myself over time as I continue my pet project, but if more experienced users can save me a buttload of time re-inventing a square wheel I certainly won't complain :) |
Raath Nambode
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 11:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
If part of the issue that CCP doesn't directly support linux as a valid gaming platform is the lack of data available, why don't we knock the windows version in winecfg down to something like win 3.1.
Am sure that if ccp sees a spike in the number of win 3.1 versions and we prove to be in enough numbers then there could be that slimmest micron thick chance ccp could take notice and put a little more effort into our small clique.
Personally I don't really see a complete linux port as valid. From their point of view, the megga bux are always going to be in M$ and mac but perhaps some further testing (I think we all need to step up on that one) before release we could, working together with CCP, ensure that these hickups become less frequent. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 12:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Inanna Zuni wrote:[...a lot of emowhineragequit crap...]
this launcher change effectively puts an end to that for many (if not all) linux users. Inanna, I hoped you knew better.
Even if my own post above is one of doom and despair, you really should take a peek at other threads in this forum. In them, you'll find the best practices and solutions (ok, workarounds, I concede) to operate BOTH the Launcher AND the game client.
It works, it can work, it's not even rocket science to make it work.
It's a kuldge? You bet! It's annoying? Like sitting naked on a cactus! But it CAN work. There are no excuses not to try what made many linux users able to play again besides laziness and contempt.
That's the price we collectively pay for the platform freedom we love and enjoy. If you don't want to pay it anymore, be my guest, but don't sperg nonsense about the "putting an end for many linux users". It's a steaming pile of bovine *****.
Yesterday there was a patch to apply (1.5.3), the Launcher popped up, patched the client (without problems), and launched the game client, again without an hiccup.
And it indeed worked: https://kb.pleaseignore.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=395601 -- I'm the first Moros pilot: see my pretty face in that list? It means I was flying in space on my linux box firing at a POS with other caps no earlier than yesterday night!
It's quirky to set up, but it CAN be convinced to cooperate.
Raath Nambode wrote:why don't we knock the windows version in winecfg down to something like win 3.1. Because then the client won't start; already tried.
We can push for a way to be counted, that'd be a good effort to pursue. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
67
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 14:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Has anyone tried to use the repairtool instead of the launcher to upgrade the client? If that works we may as well be able to build a native launcher as this uses a zsync source as far as i know. |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 09:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Hello,
firstly, I like the idea of Linux dominating the world and Windows going down. I love such comments, they make me smile. By the time this will happen could we perhaps be flying real spaceships, too. Who knows?!
As some have already mentioned was there once a native client for Linux and it got dropped. We should not force CCP to make another one when they already made the experience.
I like the idea of improving EVE itself to run better with WINE and older hardware best. Not only does Linux win but we gain more players, too. CCP shall avoid features that demand high hardware requirements and have 1-2 people to look after Linux/WINE compatibility. |
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Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers Academy Kill It With Fire
9
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Posted - 2012.03.22 16:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:there once a native client for Linux and it got dropped.
There never was a native client, it was a something like cedega wrapped around the win client (pretty much as the mac client is now) and even then eve ran supposedly better under wine.
On the other hand it would be nice to have someone at ccp test their clients under wine (stable or latest version) on various distributions and systems specs. However I don't see it happening anytime soon as most linux issues tend to be solved by a couple of experienced users. Maybe one of those people could apply for a job at CCP |
Agent Krotki
CCCP it
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 17:34:00 -
[32] - Quote
ATTENTION Eve Online DEVELOPERS!!
I love linux. And feel disappointed about eve-online developers team.
They harvested such a big fruit from open-source community. Eve is build with python code. Servers operate on linux kernels. Even this very forum is probably build with use of open software tools.
I don't ask eve to become open software. It is their work and i respect that. But since they build their fortune on linux based systems why not repay the community with proper native client to play with instead of turning their backs on us.
Why they deny that there are plenty of us linux users who install wine to play the game. Some reboots to windows or turn on mac computers just to play the game.
They could help us linux users with so little effort. The most often reason why people over the entire world reformat their harddrives to install windows is the reason they are unable to play games like eve. Take mozilla for example. When they started firefox project there was little hope the browsers market can be cured. After some years of support from them and google we have now plenty of decent browsers to choose from and web technologies are booming.
"The choice is Yours. You can make a diffrence" - The butterfly effect.
So.. I STRONGLY DEMAND LINUX NATIVE CLIENT because linux/opensource community deserve better treatment.
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Whitehound
4
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Posted - 2012.03.22 18:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nebu Retski wrote:There never was a native client, it was a something like cedega wrapped around the win client (pretty much as the mac client is now) and even then eve ran supposedly better under wine. It was as native as it could be for CCP. The Windows client is not a native client either by your definition, because it runs on Python, needs some other open source libraries to run and is only a 32bit application. What mattered most was how it was advertised, sold and supported. As such was it a native client.
The discussion itself takes place at a pretty bad time, because CCP had to cut staff not too long ago and we are living in a time of a boring economy. Other game makers expand out onto the console market to survive, because the PC market itself is not very large. Therefore asking CCP to do a native Linux client is not going to happen. You will have a better chance with asking for an EVE client for the XBox 360. |
Bent Barrel
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 18:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:Bent Barrel wrote:sure they do ... windows XP laptop - no issues at all, launcher and patching went great. linux box at home, took me 2 days to get it to run and had to wipe my wineprefix and settings to get it to work ... not tallking about the performance regresion (had sync fps before 1.5 in station, now I am at 30% of previous values).
So what? Our platform is unsupported. There's not even a "best effort" commitment. I know it works. I know it took many hoops to jump thru. I know its performance is abysmal (but that's been acknowledged and it's being corrected). Obligatory car analogy: Buy a car. Pour some home brewed wine (see what I did here?) in the fuel tank. Go complain at the manufacturer that your car doesn't run anymore.
hmm ... who might have said that:
"But the devs already check the builds against WINE. They stated, more than once, that in the devs team there are some die-hard linux fans, playing their own game on linux. "Confessions" gathered during fanfests and other equally informal venues. They keep loving us (the very existence of this forum is a testament), but just can't be too loud about it. Remember: development != management!"
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Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 19:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Besides the evidence that getting a consistent experience out of wine is easier than supporting a half-dozen MSWindows variations with various patchlevels and who knows what drivers.
Browse the general support forum for a bit if you think we have troubles... |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 21:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:hmm ... who might have said that: I know who said that.
And I confirm every word.
Which is to say that a bunch of individual developers are as supportive as it gets to help us linux nerds keep playing. But it also means that there is not any official nor "best effort" support from the company, which is who ultimately pays for the worktime development efforts.
We have many individuals to thank for their freetime support. But pressuring the company itself is not going anywhere.
Im my car analogy, one can't complain at the manufacturer. But may very well adapt the injectors to treat the home brewn concotion as fuel, and mix it to a point where the car actually runs on wine. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers Academy Kill It With Fire
9
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Posted - 2012.03.23 09:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:It was as native as it could be for CCP. The Windows client is not a native client either by your definition, because it runs on Python, needs some other open source libraries to run and is only a 32bit application.
LoL, the windows client is native because all the code can be compiled into windows binaries regardless of the fact that it uses python or not. Python perfectly runs natively on Win / Linux / Mac.
On the other hand the Eve client can not be compiled to native Linux binaries because it relies on DirectX (most likely there are other issues as well) which last time I checked does not run natively on linux because there are no native binaries. No surprise there because it is very doubtfull that MS will produce binaries of DX for Linux.
To oversimplify it, the Cedega wrapper essentially translates the windows function calls to Linux function calls, it is by no means a native client.
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Moiraine Gyrox
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.03.23 12:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
To Play EvE on Linux system. It would help alot if there would be a opinion in launcher settings, that sets eve to the level where it works for sure on any computer. Almost like safe mode but different in a way that it has all the options that works fine on (Linux/Wine)
The EvE Linux Client is a nice dream of any Linux gamer but understanding the massive amount of work to make it happen, i can understand why it has not been done yet
btw. Thanks for Time Dilation
MG Self destruction in 5 seconds... ...Abort failed... -á...oh btw you lag: BOOOM! |
Whitehound
5
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Posted - 2012.03.23 13:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nebu Retski wrote:LoL, the windows client is native because all the code can be compiled into windows binaries ... Still, it is irrelevant. Take all your software development knowledge and throw it away, because strictly speaking are 32bit Windows binaries when run under 64bit Windows not native either and need support to run in a 64bit environment. 32bit Windows binaries run native under Linux with WINE, because WINE Is Not an Emulator. You could go as far as saying that any software that is not a 64bit C/C++ application, which directly interfaces with the operating system and hardware, are not native applications on either Linux or Windows. Some of EVE's code was compiled with GCC some with M$V8. Why draw a line?! Even the shader code needs to be compiled by DirectX and OpenGL before it can run on the GPU. You are trying to draw a line somewhere, which serves no purpose. Your argument is pointless in this discussion, because it is not about what you see as native and lack to understand, but what gets support through CCP! |
Ravow
Cosmic Encounter
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 17:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Actually we have better chance to see native Direct3D on Linux (And it's partly supported with Gallium drivers). When we will have complete support, maybe we will be able to have Native EVE-Online (only for those with open sources drivers, of course). |
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LordArcher
Red Alpha Strike
2
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Posted - 2012.03.26 01:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Banter banter banter. We all have good points. But I think, despite the way we wish it were, the truth is that Linux is not the present as was said. We aren't going to see a Linux client any time soon, not likely even if we threw 2 or 3 million dollars in CCPs face. Even if the Linux community could give the fiscal drive to CCP, it would take at least a year to 3 to get a officially supported Linux client.
So, lets not be unreasonable and focus on smaller wins shall we? In a manner of speaking we need to stand up and be counted, but we can't. the win 3.1 trick doesn't work. So rather than asking for a native/officially supported Linux client, lets focus our petitioning on what we can accomplish. we need to ask CCP and the devs for a way to mark that we use Linux. Whether it is an in game toggle or a account setting where we can check a box. It is certainly within CCP's capacity to accomplish in relatively short order and is a start for us Linux users. |
Mythas Rothron
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 22:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode |
Mythas Rothron
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 22:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote: I know who said that.
And I confirm every word.
Which is to say that a bunch of individual developers are as supportive as it gets to help us linux nerds keep playing. But it also means that there is not any official nor "best effort" support from the company, which is who ultimately pays for the worktime development efforts.
We have many individuals to thank for their freetime support. But pressuring the company itself is not going anywhere.
Im my car analogy, one can't complain at the manufacturer. But may very well adapt the injectors to treat the home brewn concotion as fuel, and mix it to a point where the car actually runs on wine.
This. I'm seeing all of these people who use a free/libre operating system designed to be tweaked, customized, and whatnot, and they contribute little to nothing back to the FOSS community, and they demand that a company already struggling to make it in this economy completely rewrite their main product to run on a platform that makes up only 2% of the entire desktop market.
The developers LOVE the linux OS, they have no problem tweaking their systems to get their game running on it, and they accept that their management team isn't going to pay them to build an OpenGL client.
The comments about Python are irrelevant, they contribute code and money upstream so they do more for those OSS projects than their users do.
I am a software developer. I write code for the Android Open Source Project, apps on that platform, and the linux kernel itself for the Arch project. I use a linux distro in 95% of my work, and I still totally agree with the decision not to build a native linux client. It doesn't make fiscal sense.
Also, the wine configuration is not that hard to follow, and the latest link http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=25544 describes which specific configurations. And google can source the rest.
What we need, is for people to contribute to some sort of project to make pulling in the libraries needed and whatnot much easier, since it seems most of the people here are sick of struggling with that. Possibly create a PlayOnLinux script?
****This is the end of the relevance of the post****
Whitehound wrote:Still, it is irrelevant. Take all your software development knowledge and throw it away, because strictly speaking are 32bit Windows binaries when run under 64bit Windows not native either and need support to run in a 64bit environment. 32bit Windows binaries run native under Linux with WINE, because WINE Is Not an Emulator. You could go as far as saying that any software that is not a 64bit C/C++ application, which directly interfaces with the operating system and hardware, are not native applications on either Linux or Windows. Some of EVE's code was compiled with GCC some with M$V8. Why draw a line?! Even the shader code needs to be compiled by DirectX and OpenGL before it can run on the GPU. You are trying to draw a line somewhere, which serves no purpose. Your argument is pointless in this discussion, because it is not about what you see as native and lack to understand, but what gets support through CCP!
Hmm...this is right and wrong. 1) 32 bit binaries in x64 windows--this statement was completely wrong. x64 Windows does not emulate the cpu instruction set for a 32-bit processor; today's cpu's can run either code set natively, translated at the binary level. I think you're referring to the multiarch libraries, that allow the 32-bit applications to be run "natively" on a 64 bit machine.
2) Wine Is Not an Emulator--this means it's not like dosbox, translating code build for a different architecture entirely (ie an N64). Wine is an implementation of a libraries interpretation layer that, for all intents and purposes, allows Windows libraries and binaries to function on a Linux/BSD system.
3) A native application is merely an application that is compiled against/uses binary libraries on the system. So, my C++ hello world application will compile on a Windows machine using VS2010 and a linux machine with GCC, but won't function on the other system due to byte-level incompatibility (and I'll spare you the kernel explanation here).
4) Eve's game code was not compiled with GCC. It is compiled with a Microsoft compiler, and the python pieces are not compiled (it's an interpreted, or "emulated" language).
5) DX libraries are binary-compatible with Windows NT-based systems only. Nebu Retski is right, the source code of EVE O cannot be compiled on a linux distribution because it compiles against the DirectX libraries among several other pieces from the API, which aren't compiled on linux. His statement about Cedega is almost correct--Cedega just tells Wine to translate the function calls meant for the NT kernel to a format readable by the linux kernel.
So, Whitehound, your post was kind of irrelevant until the last line. Whitehound wrote:because it is not about what you see as native and lack to understand, but what gets support through CCP! ^^ this exactly. And CCP's management will not allow the developers to make a binary-compatible client for the Linux platform. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 11:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
OTOH, this past Fanfest (~Free Mittens!~), we noticed an important detail from CCP: for the first time in 9 years, the official sponsors of the event did NOT include Microsoft: http://fanfest.eveonline.com/en/sponsors/nvidia
At the same time, we all know how much CCP is getting involved with Sony/PS3 with Dust 514.
PS3 doesn't use DirectX and instead it uses...
Won't keep my fingers crossed, but there may be some hope. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Caldarius Seeker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 10:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
I would love to see Linux client. EVE had linux client many years ago but they switch to DX. But I don't mind. I use Windows for games and laptop with Ubuntu for work (programmer). But it would be nice to log into the game from laptop.
OR they could throw us API for stuff like mail exchange, skill queue and stuff like that. This way I could manage my character from the browser to some point just like I get notifications from my Chrome extension I build for myself. |
Whitehound
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 20:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mythas Rothron wrote:Hmm...this is right and wrong. 1) 32 bit binaries in x64 windows--this statement was completely wrong. x64 Windows does not emulate the cpu instruction set for a 32-bit processor; today's cpu's can run either code set natively, translated at the binary level. I think you're referring to the multiarch libraries, that allow the 32-bit applications to be run "natively" on a 64 bit machine. I was not and still am not not talking about emulation. The problem is in the calling conventions between libraries, which needs to be worked around. There is noting native about it. |
Bent Barrel
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 12:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Mythas Rothron wrote:Hmm...this is right and wrong. 1) 32 bit binaries in x64 windows--this statement was completely wrong. x64 Windows does not emulate the cpu instruction set for a 32-bit processor; today's cpu's can run either code set natively, translated at the binary level. I think you're referring to the multiarch libraries, that allow the 32-bit applications to be run "natively" on a 64 bit machine. I was not and still am not not talking about emulation. The problem is in the calling conventions between libraries, which needs to be worked around. There is noting native about it.
but that's just mode changing in the dynamic library loader ... a 32bit app cannot load a 64bit library and vice versa, so NO translation is needed. you need a complete 32bit environment for an 32bit application to run on 64 bit OS. Mythas is correct on that part. |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 17:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:but that's just mode changing in the dynamic library loader ... a 32bit app cannot load a 64bit library and vice versa, so NO translation is needed. you need a complete 32bit environment for an 32bit application to run on 64 bit OS. Mythas is correct on that part. No, he is not correct. He believes there is something native about running EVE under Windows opposed to running it under Linux. He is trying to draw a line between the two based on his idea of what makes it native so that he can call one to be native and the other not. Yet he knows that there are many different layers involved between EVE's client code and the operating system. He does this to have an argument and to say that Linux needs a native client. It does not need one and drawing a line in there somewhere is utterly pointless.
If anything then WINE needs to get better. Or the EVE client needs to be written in C/C++ rather than Python. |
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian Pinked
61
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
If EVE had a Linux Client, I would drop windows save for the occasional Steam Game Real Caldari Hull Tank (And Win doing so) Support the EVE Version of Source Recoder! |
Bent Barrel
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Bent Barrel wrote:but that's just mode changing in the dynamic library loader ... a 32bit app cannot load a 64bit library and vice versa, so NO translation is needed. you need a complete 32bit environment for an 32bit application to run on 64 bit OS. Mythas is correct on that part. No, he is not correct. He believes there is something native about running EVE under Windows opposed to running it under Linux. He is trying to draw a line between the two based on his idea of what makes it native so that he can call one to be native and the other not. Yet he knows that there are many different layers involved between EVE's client code and the operating system. He does this to have an argument and to say that Linux needs a native client. It does not need one and drawing a line in there somewhere is utterly pointless. If anything then WINE needs to get better. Or the EVE client needs to be written in C/C++ rather than Python.
please note that I was replying to one specific part of the whole discussion. that's whay the quote function is there ....
if you check earlier, I am not a fan of a native client, however I'd like some wine consideration during development ....
as to you c/c++ vs python comment, the programming language has no effect. it's the platform bindings that do (directx being the biggest one). |
|
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:please note that I was replying to one specific part of the whole discussion. that's whay the quote function is there ....
if you check earlier, I am not a fan of a native client, however I'd like some wine consideration during development ....
as to you c/c++ vs python comment, the programming language has no effect. it's the platform bindings that do (directx being the biggest one). The whole point of this discussion is the need for speed. CCP mentioned some time ago that parts of their client are written in C++ and others in Python. They say that it is good enough and only the DirectX stuff which is written in C++ iirc. However, seeing how they improved text rendering recently would a client written entirely in C/C++ (and properly optimized by a compiler) likely give a noticeable speed boost over the current Python based code. When I turn off the UI with CTRL-F9 then my frame rate goes up from 40-50 fp/s to a solid 60 fp/s. This is quite a bump. I am pretty sure that this is because of the Python code doing UI stuff. Only CCP will really know why this is. |
Bent Barrel
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Bent Barrel wrote:please note that I was replying to one specific part of the whole discussion. that's whay the quote function is there ....
if you check earlier, I am not a fan of a native client, however I'd like some wine consideration during development ....
as to you c/c++ vs python comment, the programming language has no effect. it's the platform bindings that do (directx being the biggest one). The whole point of this discussion is the need for speed. CCP mentioned some time ago that parts of their client are written in C++ and others in Python. They say that it is good enough and only the DirectX stuff which is written in C++ iirc. However, seeing how they improved text rendering recently would a client written entirely in C/C++ (and properly optimized by a compiler) likely give a noticeable speed boost over the current Python based code. When I turn off the UI with CTRL-F9 then my frame rate goes up from 40-50 fp/s to a solid 60 fp/s. This is quite a bump. I am pretty sure that this is because of the Python code doing UI stuff. Only CCP will really know why this is.
that is possible ... I noticed the other way around. the more windows I have open (corp, contracts, market etc.) the lower my FPS.
however it does not matter how the client is coded if it depends on windows native services/libraries. even if it was entirely c++, we'd still need wine to run it. |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:30:00 -
[53] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:however it does not matter how the client is coded if it depends on windows native services/libraries. even if it was entirely c++, we'd still need wine to run it. But what is the point of saying this?! You still will need Windows to run the C++ programs, too. You cannot run them without an operating system. WINE Is Not an Emulator... It is a binary loader and linker just like you have under Windows and Linux. Linux has got an ELF and a.out loader in kernel space. WINE is the same thing only does it run in user space and it loads Windows binaries. |
Bent Barrel
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 09:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Bent Barrel wrote:however it does not matter how the client is coded if it depends on windows native services/libraries. even if it was entirely c++, we'd still need wine to run it. But what is the point of saying this?! You still will need Windows to run the C++ programs, too. You cannot run them without an operating system. WINE Is Not an Emulator... It is a binary loader and linker just like you have under Windows and Linux. Linux has got an ELF and a.out loader in kernel space. WINE is the same thing only does it run in user space and it loads Windows binaries.
not using windows native services, you can just recompile and run anywhere ... so porting is much easier ... however dependenacies force you to eithre recode or use crutches like wine.
also wine is NOT only a binary loader and linker, it emulates parts that don't have corresponding functionality in linux (i.e. d3d to ogl translation, threading model etc.). |
Arachno Webb
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:51:00 -
[55] - Quote
Well they _had_ some kind of Linux client earlier on, and it was also based on WINE if I remember correctly. Let me tell you this: It sucked big time. Very soon everyone was using the Windows version with their own WINE. What we need is not a 'native' version, but for CCP to align some more with WINE to make things more playable. For this they need to: - Drop DIrectX and start using OpenGL (as they did before if I remember correctly) - Give some pointers to the WINE development on how they use certain stuff and submit some code to improve it. - Do some compatibility testing
Perhaps this is a lot to ask, but perhaps not, I can't judge on that. But it also seems not to be an outreageous request from our side to ask for some more thought when it comes to the Linux players. As a side note: For me, at this moment, EVE on WINE works quite good. It could use a speed bump, but for the most part, this game is very playable. At least, to my standards, which may be altogether too low, but ok ;-) |
Bent Barrel
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 10:09:00 -
[56] - Quote
EVE never used OpenGL, it was a D3D game from the start. |
Areale
Timetravel Enterprises WarTek INC
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Perhaps if we all do as I do we can convince CCP to put some serious weight behind "Official" linux support.
about once a year, I re-up an account and see if I can get it to run in linux. If I can, I renew ALL my accounts and purchase several plex's to sell on a regular basis (about 75 - 100 bucks a month in total).
When they make a release or "Patch" that breaks the client on wine, I cancel my subscriptions and stop buying products from CCP. Ultimately taking money out of their pocket. I make my voice heard by NOT contributing to a company that HAS made the choice to NOT support my operating system.
In the end, this is the ONLY way CCP will consider this seriously. They are a for profit company and unless they start seeing their revenue drop due to a lack of support for a segment of the community, they will continue to ignore us and assume that we are hopelessly hooked on their product and that we are willing to go to almost any length to get our "EVE" fix.
So either take the proverbial needle out or accept the fact that CCP is going to make you their .......... well you get the point.
Areale |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 13:11:00 -
[58] - Quote
I just picked up a piece of information that I did not have previously: The Mesa OpenGL library team has been implementing some key D3D functions, which means that with some Python hackery a truly native Linux client may be possible soon.
The distribution requirements would be pretty recent, but it's not like it costs much for people to upgrade, eh? |
nosmyrC
The RedNeck Posse
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 05:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
I would just like to see the devs work a little closer with the wine devs. Then when a problem does arise the wine group could help the CCP devs solve the problem quicler. |
Falrec
Aurora Heavy Industry
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
Install Eve online thanks to Wine is really difficult for someone with little computer knowledges like me. The return of a linux client would be a good idea. Today, I use windows only to run my games.
(sorry for my bad english ) |
|
Nocturrne Primitive
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
I Vote Yes to a Linux Client! Actually, any Linux support would be very nice, as I am running it in wine. |
Fascist Jockitch
Achura Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Yes, please give us some Linux support. I am using Ubuntu with an Nvidia GPU. |
Venus ThighTrap
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
Yes, please for Linux support. |
Pom Agrant
Achura Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
I vote YES for a Linux client. Thx |
Professor Bonehead
Evil Young Flesh
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Yes for a Linux client. I've been using it, painfully, for years. |
T3RMi3
IDEON ANDRON HELL4S
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 13:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
I Vote Yes to a NATIVE Linux Client. Thanks |
Calleo Vaillis
M.R.A Santa Cruz Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 16:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
I Vote Yes to a NATIVE Linux Client. Thanks |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:58:00 -
[68] - Quote
*Yawn*
Can't really recognize a dead horse when you see one, huh? << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Linsel Harvnor
Optic Nerve Expeditions
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 23:44:00 -
[69] - Quote
Sometimes you have to beat a dead horse a WHOLE LOT before there's any hope of bringing it back to life.
I'd love native Linux support.
Failing that, I'd love some sort of official support of running EVE under Wine. The unofficial support we have right now seems to be working fairly well, however.... |
Jakob Hok
Against the Machines
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 04:40:00 -
[70] - Quote
I Vote Yes to a NATIVE Linux Client. Thanks
|
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Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
131
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Well, I would like to see the following, as I just said, Bu-Bye to Windows (typing this on my new installed 12.04 Ubuntu laptop and when my ASUS gets back I am pretty sure that is going to Ubuntu also, was going to windows 7 64-bit, but I am just not at all happy with the whole MS/Windows thing anymore...
Would love a WINE (HOW TO)
And would love to see any assistance in making Linux stable and workable.
MS/W8 = they finally "Jumped the shark" - I think MS and Apple are both due to decline... MS due to crappy product, and Apple due to their financial situation, they are going to start to lose holders as the stock has topped out, and with that less working capital...
Anyway +1 for any pro-Linux move. it's all about the Frame Rate... |
Fantu
Lupi di Wotan Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 15:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
I Vote Yes to a native Linux Client or at least native launcher/updater, help to improve wine support, and game stability (last is platform independent).
For some years now my servers are just Linux, partial for work but I'm finally to migrate completely to Linux with Ubuntu 12.04. Only one computer has been with windows 7 but since the increase of good native games for Linux and the continued disappointment of windows for stability, efficiency and safety. Most likely go on to linux within one year also with gaming, I hope that Eve will be functioning well, even on multiple instances. |
Jane Baker
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 17:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
I agree on the WINE testing end of things. A Linux native client is far more work for them than simply testing their product with WINE. It is far too much to ask and it is not profitable for CCP to rewrite all graphics code. An easier path to running it with WINE would be plenty good for me. Playing EVE has been hell for me, as I run into no end of trouble every time there is an update of either WINE or EVE. I would much appreciate dedicated WINE testing from CCP. |
Publius Victrix
Gloria In Excelsis Deo
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:32:00 -
[74] - Quote
I'm not sure how useful it is to post this, but I'd very much like to see something better as well. I'm voting with my feet right now and staying with CCP, but all it'll take is a period of a week where I can't run the game and I'll change my vote.
That said, I'm very flexible with regard to how support for GNU/Linux is implemented. As much as I'd love a native client, I'd be content with Wine being a first-class support target.
|
Miracle Chipmunk Otsito
Gnome Industries
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 08:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
I would love to see a native Linux client, but we all know that's WAY too much work. I'd at least like to see a small group of devs dedicated to WINE compatibility. Only 2 or 3 devs should be enough. |
Khi3l
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 11:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
Miracle Chipmunk Otsito wrote:I would love to see a native Linux client, but we all know that's WAY too much work. I'd at least like to see a small group of devs dedicated to WINE compatibility. Only 2 or 3 devs should be enough.
Only one should be...
Before the launcher, all worked fine but now, we have to deal with wine config everyday (now patches are everyday), passing our time switching dll from b,n to n,b... THIS MUST BE FIXED !
CQ doesn't work on Linux, it shouldn't be so difficult to make it work... THIS MUST BE FIXED !
That's all. |
Bent Barrel
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 11:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
Khi3l wrote:Miracle Chipmunk Otsito wrote:I would love to see a native Linux client, but we all know that's WAY too much work. I'd at least like to see a small group of devs dedicated to WINE compatibility. Only 2 or 3 devs should be enough. Only one should be... Before the launcher, all worked fine but now, we have to deal with wine config everyday (now patches are everyday), passing our time switching dll from b,n to n,b... THIS MUST BE FIXED ! CQ doesn't work on Linux, it shouldn't be so difficult to make it work... THIS MUST BE FIXED ! That's all.
I don't have to switch ... works with one profile ...
also you can create application specifi dll overrides ..... |
Zo Khamez
Miomi Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 16:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
I agree with the OP... I would like to see a Native Linux client... one that does not use WINE...
I am a die hard Linux fan and also a computer programmer in RL. I would love to have an opportunity at writing a Native Linux client... and if it interests CCP, I would love to be hired by CCP to write the Native Linux client for them. :)
|
Zo Khamez
Miomi Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 16:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
Zo Khamez wrote:I agree with the OP... I would like to see a Native Linux client... one that does not use WINE...
I am a die hard Linux fan and also a computer programmer in RL. I would love to have an opportunity at writing a Native Linux client... and if it interests CCP, I would love to be hired by CCP to write the Native Linux client for them. :)
I have at one point, multi-boxed 8 separate accounts concurrently within the game (a mining fleet, whoohoo). I had set the resolution to 1280x512 and spread them out evenly over 4 monitors (all 1280x1024). Then I simply interacted with each client in order to perform the work of a whole mining fleet (mining, hauling, security). A lot of work, but very fun too!
I have a few great ideas about how I think the Native Linux Client should work: 1. The linux kernel now supports KSM (Kernel Samepage Merging) This feature was originally intended for KVM use. Each EVE client consumes roughly 800MB to 1GB of RAM. It would be great if all the "static data" (models, ships, stations, characters, etc) would use the KSM to keep only one copy of all that data in RAM... the "dynamic data" (what you are currently doing in EVE, wallet, inventory, etc) would be unique to each client. This would be a huge improvement to memory consumption. I suspect that this could also be done (and benefit all the other clients to) using IPC or shared memory.
2. If CCP takes a page out of the World of Warcraft book... perhaps it could be possible to switch between DirectX and OpenGL rendering libraries. I'm not 100% sure how they do it now, but I believe that CCP can do the same thing. I am not afraid to undertake the challenge of this.
Some of the most difficult challenges are consequently the most rewarding too. I hope CCP seriously considers hiring me for this task!
Thanks.
|
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 22:19:00 -
[80] - Quote
WoW does OpenGL and DirectX natively because Blizzard fully supports Mac OSX. Mac is OpenGL for its rendering. It would likely be trivial for Blizzard to support Linux for all their games that run on OSX. Especially considering OSX is a highly modified *nix operating system.
How does EVE support OSX? is it somehow emulated or is it using OGL natively? |
|
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 08:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:How does EVE support OSX? is it somehow emulated or is it using OGL natively? It's Cider: http://transgaming.com/cider
Which is basically a WINE derived, Windows compatibility layer for MacOS. The original codebase was the same. Transgaming is the company which teamed up with CCP and (thru their now-discontinued Cedega WINE spinoff) provided the original CCP Linux client when the expansion Trinity shipped - end of 2007.
There has never been (and I believe never will) a native OpenGL client. The Windows client is unironically DirectX and both the actual Mac client and the now defunct Linux client are DirectX+WINE libs clients, released in various states of usability.
CCP is historically a Microsoft shop. This may change with Dust and their link with Sony.
But the game client is built around DirectX. I don't think it's trivial to OpenGL'ize it. And for sure it's not a priority for the icelanders. Their Windows client works, their Mac client somehow works, what they'd gain with such a deep codepath change? << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Zo Khamez
Miomi Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 16:25:00 -
[82] - Quote
I was just reading an article posted last March in which John Carmack (co-founder of id software, which made the original Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, and Quake 3 gmaes) is quoted for stating that DirectX has now surpassed and is better than OpenGL.
Additionally, I found some articles (still digging through them) that seem to indicate that there is a new driver (Gallium) which supports DirectX10/11 natively on Linux. For the NVIDIA players (such as myself), it seems like the API path would involve EVE + WINE + Gallium3D + Nouveau. I'm currently running the binary nvidia driver and would need to switch over to the open source nouveau driver.
|
Sal Alo
Pane e Panelle
0
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Posted - 2012.06.19 06:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'd love a native linux client but an insured WINE compatibility will work wonders! |
L0krin
Methodical Destruction The Methodical Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.06.19 15:49:00 -
[84] - Quote
I Vote Yes to a Linux Client, right now eve is the only thing keeping me from switching to Linux on my desktop. Everything else I do works in SuSe Linux. I dont really want to have to mess with setting up eve in WINE and installing patches with WINE. The Linux Community is still growing, I hope that CCP sees this thread and realizes that people really do want to play eve on Linux. |
Zo Khamez
Miomi Industries
2
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Posted - 2012.06.19 19:42:00 -
[85] - Quote
Does anyone have any experience with the Nouveau / Mesa / Gallium 3D drivers? I am considering switches from the closed source binary driver that NVidia provides. I have a GeForce 9500 GT card.
If so, what kind of performance are you getting (CPU usage and FPS)? Would you mind sharing your configuration?
Have you tried running multiple clients? If so, how many have you gotten up to?
I'm getting lower FPS (around 20 or so) and each clients hogs 100% of a core (i.e. 3 clients = 3 cores hogged). |
Zwo Zateki
Zwo Zateki Corporation
8
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Posted - 2012.06.19 19:49:00 -
[86] - Quote
Zo Khamez wrote:Does anyone have any experience with the Nouveau / Mesa / Gallium 3D drivers? I am considering switches from the closed source binary driver that NVidia provides. I have a GeForce 9500 GT card.
If so, what kind of performance are you getting (CPU usage and FPS)? Would you mind sharing your configuration?
Have you tried running multiple clients? If so, how many have you gotten up to?
I'm getting lower FPS (around 20 or so) and each clients hogs 100% of a core (i.e. 3 clients = 3 cores hogged). EVE fails to load textures properly w/ Nouveau. Stick to NVIDIA blob. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
119
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Posted - 2012.06.20 08:47:00 -
[87] - Quote
@Zo: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=search&search=gallium&forumID=274
@L0krin: The mythical WINE complexity is just that: a myth. You're free to believe what you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if one day you set aside your laziness and realize just how easy is to have EVE working under WINE if you do everything right. I'm playing EVE since Trinity on a machine that doesn't even have a Windows partition. These days I'm able to multibox two EVE clients and Diablo3 at once with a very satisfactory experience (I wouldn's say "without problems", but YMMV), and just a bit of configuration wisdom gathered in this very forum.
@Sal: suca!
<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Jai Di
Elite Expeditions
6
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Posted - 2012.06.20 09:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:@L0krin: The mythical WINE complexity is just that: a myth. You're free to believe what you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if one day you set aside your laziness and realize just how easy is to have EVE working under WINE if you do everything right. I'm playing EVE since Trinity on a machine that doesn't even have a Windows partition. These days I'm able to multibox two EVE clients and Diablo3 at once with a very satisfactory experience (I wouldn's say "without problems", but YMMV), and just a bit of configuration wisdom gathered in this very forum.
While I have had EVE running in Wine since... God knows when... Lately it's become a bigger pain in the arse.
CQ -- while I'm not bothered by it -- either crashes to desktop or has a massive spaz out to the point of having to manually sigkill wine; then with the new launcher, having to switch one or more dll's from native to builtin every time you want to update (I seem to need to do this to a varying amount of dll's depending on what mood the launcher is in), then putting them back again to play is not, to me, running very well.
But I do agree that you *can* not use Windows (I don't have a Windows partition either), just it's not as simple for EVE as it was. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
119
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Posted - 2012.06.20 23:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
CQ: not bothering with it since two days after release of Incarna. Sorry if any of you may take offense, but my game happens in space, not in a room.
DLL juggling: I solved once and for all with the program profiles:
1) Launch "winecfg" from any shell.
2) In the "Applications" tab, click "Add Application..."
3) In the text field, type "eve.exe" and click "Open"
4) Notice your eve.exe is added and highlighted, then in the "Libraries" tab, set the overrides to "native,builtin" for msvcr(t|80|90|100).
5) Return to the "Applications" tab, click again on "Add Application..." and this time type "ExeFile.exe", then click "Open"
6) Highlight the new entry, go in the "Libraries" tab, and set the overrides to "builtin,native" for the usual libs.
This way you can launch the launcher, update the launcher, update the client, click play on launcher, run the client directly, etc. without having to change any override ever again.
Six simple, clear steps, done once, and the client behaves exactly as it should. I really don't know what kind of perceived difficulty may it appear to be, once you decide to use a Unix derivative operating system. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Jai Di
Elite Expeditions
6
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Posted - 2012.06.21 09:02:00 -
[90] - Quote
I've not bothered with CQ really either, as I said before. But it's still a feature of the game that doesn't work.
Regarding the DLL switching, I am fully aware of wine application specific overrides; as I said before though, I don't always have to change the same DLL's and sometimes setting them all to native then builtin doesn't help -- adding an entry for the launcher makes no odds as I still have to go into winecfg and mix and match until it works.
What you have to remember is that wine is completely situational; what might work for you, doesn't necessarily work for others.
Also, I wasn't saying it was difficult, merely that it is more of a pain than it used to be. |
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Seras Victoria Egivand
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
0
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Posted - 2012.07.17 02:35:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:If EVE had a Linux Client, I would drop windows save for the occasional Steam Game
steam is comeing to linux lol..
But back on topic.
Eve client nativly sure id love to see it.. No offence Even getting perfect functions though wine still doubles the overhead for a linux machine because of the Direct x function calls that need to be translated to linux function calls. A native client would reduce a ton of system overhead thats being caused because it does have to be interpreted though the wine api layer.
TBH Theres way more linux users now then there was a few years ago. IT would be nice if developers would actually start to support more multi platform enviorments then a single environment. I ran windows for years tinkered with linux Now i run linux exclusively.
The issue isnt so much can ccp do it ya they can do it. Is it frantically viable for them? Without true numbers idk. Even blizzard atm is starting to look more at LInux native clients for future games. The biggest hurtle would be to make the client api Indepenant vs api depenant. Heck even if they just back ported OpenGL as a option in the system would decrease the amount of overhead needed. |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Bellum Esca
112
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Posted - 2012.07.17 18:51:00 -
[92] - Quote
http://www.reghardware.com/2012/07/17/valve_to_usher_steam_upon_ubuntu/
bit more ammo :) |
Seras Victoria Egivand
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
0
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Posted - 2012.07.17 19:49:00 -
[93] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:http://www.reghardware.com/2012/07/17/valve_to_usher_steam_upon_ubuntu/
bit more ammo :)
god a perfect would would be eve native client
Tf2 linux edition
Portal 1 and 2 linux lol...
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Melke
Black Hole Drifters The 99 Percent
0
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Posted - 2012.07.19 21:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
It would be more likely to see Dust 514 come to PC, Mac and Linux since it was developed on Unreal Engine 3 using OpenGL before we saw a native Eve Online client. That said, I'm not sure if UE3 supports native linux either. UT3 doesn't have a native clent.
Just testing Eve with Wine would be enough. It runs well enough save for CQ and https with the IGB. For now, I just created 2 shortcuts on my desktop. 1 for the launcher to check updates and the other to actually play. |
Seras Victoria Egivand
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
0
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Posted - 2012.07.19 21:52:00 -
[95] - Quote
Melke wrote:It would be more likely to see Dust 514 come to PC, Mac and Linux since it was developed on Unreal Engine 3 using OpenGL before we saw a native Eve Online client. That said, I'm not sure if UE3 supports native linux either. UT3 doesn't have a native clent.
Just testing Eve with Wine would be enough. It runs well enough save for CQ and https with the IGB. For now, I just created 2 shortcuts on my desktop. 1 for the launcher to check updates and the other to actually play.
why just settle for a wine driviitive?
yes it works on wine but the whole point of it would be to get them to actually do something for the linux users. Gtranted they do test and make it compatable with wine... But also in the same token We are paying customers to. Im not bashing them Just would like to see nix users not be treated like the step child that has to use a crutch to do something. |
Katrina Bekers
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
127
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 12:35:00 -
[96] - Quote
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:why just settle for a wine driviitive?
Because it makes sense, from a business viewpoint (at least, at the moment).
We're not treated like stepchildren. It's unfair to blame the devs if we use our own liberty in an often-backfiring way.
We're being offered a product, and we're free to buy it and use it according to its intended specifications.
We buy it, and then use it in a totally unintended way. Why should the blame be on CCP?
Honestly, I wouldn't complain. Each and every linux user is well aware that he/she's running the client outside supported specs. I don't feel the same entitlement as Seras. I'm free to use it under Windows and receive the support they're packaging with the product. Or I can use it under linux and give up the support. I'm very glad I still have this choice. << THE RABBLE BRIGADE >> |
Melke
Black Hole Drifters
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 15:17:00 -
[97] - Quote
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:We are paying customers to.
Yes, we are but, when they stopped supporting the linux client it was less than 5% of the population. Partly due to the linux client being a huge pile and not brought up to premium graphics so we went back to wine. That was a few years ago but, why would they rewrite their entire graphics engine for less than 5%? The money doesn't add up. Would it allow native Mac and Linux users to have a more even experience with windows? Heck yeah it would but, unless that population is 30% or more I wouldn't even have it on the table if I were Hilmar.
Do another wrapper like they have on Mac if they have to.
It's becoming easier for it to work in wine out of the box so I'm patient enough to wait. There are devs who read this forum and help when they can with getting it easier to play. |
Allan Scott
Knights of the Order
0
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Posted - 2012.07.21 00:10:00 -
[98] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Better if they just treat current Wine releases as a proper version of Windows to support.
I second this vote. It works fine, for a while, then they do something that breaks it. After a week or two someone finally finds a workaround, and it goes back to working fine till the next time CCP gets an itch and scratches it by screwing up wine compatibility. |
Marcus Barrick
Union of Protectorates UNITED STAR FEDERATION
0
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Posted - 2012.07.21 01:08:00 -
[99] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:why just settle for a wine driviitive? Because it makes sense, from a business viewpoint (at least, at the moment). We're not treated like stepchildren. It's unfair to blame the devs if we use our own liberty in an often-backfiring way. We're being offered a product, and we're free to buy it and use it according to its intended specifications. We buy it, and then use it in a totally unintended way. Why should the blame be on CCP? Honestly, I wouldn't complain. Each and every linux user is well aware that he/she's running the client outside supported specs. I don't feel the same entitlement as Seras. I'm free to use it under Windows and receive the support they're packaging with the product. Or I can use it under linux and give up the support. I'm very glad I still have this choice.
I think they didn't mean How it sounded. I think they were Just trying to get CCP to understand that theres more linux users now. Which would make sence. Anyways i dont think the Post was intended as Linux users by CCP is being treated like stepchildren i think when it comes to the linux community as a whole. Thats Just my assumption.
As far as a Native linux client goes... Yes I would love to see one will it happen? I cant say yes 100 percent or no it will never happen. Theres quite a few things in The pipe for the mighty pengun so Who knows.
We got Steam coming to linux You got The steam client games comeing to linux More and more developers and Indy developers are supporting more and more Multi platform environments. You got The Mesa/ Gellium 3d Team being able to implement Direct X into Linux naively and having it be able to run DX applications.
You got the Steam os Down the pipe.
You got the abomination that is windows 8 Coming out Yes i say abomination because it sucks as a desktop os. (why is this important. ) Because theres a ton of win XP users that are about ready to Have to eather A jump to windows 7 or Windows 8 Or GO Linux if they want to update there OS.
Alot of people are just tired of shelling out 200-300+ dollers for a os that gets outdated and forced to upgrade for some few extra features. Those people are prime linux Targets and MS Mac And Linux know this.
All in all Would i like to see a native Client yes.
Am i happy with the way wine is with it atm Sure it doesn't hurt it.
Will i be mad if i never see one no so long as it remains wine compatible . |
Morpheus Mishima
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
18
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Posted - 2012.07.28 09:24:00 -
[100] - Quote
Both Valve and Blizzard are now looking into porting all of their products to linux, why? Because of Win8 and MS Store.
IF this happens It wouldn't be that difficult to imagine that even EA games would start to look at moving over NEW games to linux as well. Origin is not much compared to Valves Steam and Blizzards Store.
Valve is a solid bet, Newell hates Win8 and already loves linux. Valve has more than 2500 games in their store. And more coming surely.
CCP should start looking at this seriously. Not only a native linux client, but a whole "games-store" for their portfolio which is probably going to include both EVE Online, World of Darkness AND also Dust 514. |
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