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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.04.24 16:48:00 -
[61]
why are you engaging people over stupid **** like looting wrecks? They obviously are looking to get you to shoot them so they can come smoke you. Let them loot wrecks who gives a *hoot*
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Tai Paktu
Mortis Incarnatus
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Posted - 2008.04.24 19:17:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Tai Paktu on 24/04/2008 19:22:47 Logistics pilot = Raven pilot.
Otherwise, bug.
edit for actual rules
Ok, I'll be a little more helpful.
The T1 frig (Pilot A) steals from your wreck. He is now aggressed to you and your entire corp, if you're in a player corp. You fire on player A, recriprocating his aggression. He can no fire back. The rest of his corp cannot.
Pilot B (Logistics) and Pilot C (Domi) warp in [classic tarp btw, silly to fall for it but you live- or not- and learn in EvE) and remote rep Pilot A, flagging themselves to you and your corp. You fire at Pilot B flagging yourself to Pilot B only, not his corp. Pilot B dies, probably comes back in that Raven and then you die.
Check your kill and loss mail. The Raven pilot must be the logistics pilot or this was, to my understanding of agression flags, a bug. ______
http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG |
Kolwrath
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.04.24 20:45:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Kolwrath on 24/04/2008 20:47:31 Yeah I think th raven must have been piloted by the logistics guy as well.
Never engage in Pvp in a highsec mission. No matter how easy things look. Once the logitics came in you should have realised that this was a well planned out trap. No pirate just "happens" to have some logistic support hanging around. You should have just warped out, or just waited out the timer and let concord WTFBBQ them when the 15 minutes was up.
Out of curiosity what system was this? (if you dont feel comfortable with the system just the region name would be of interest)
Oh and a big middle finger to the "can I have your stuff", and "go back to wow / hello kitty / <insert other eve meme here>" guys. Your trolling **** is adding nothing to the thread. Go back under your bridges (a.k.a your parents basement).
Originally by: Chaos Space Marines
Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
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Alexandra Pizdicea
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Posted - 2008.04.24 22:15:00 -
[64]
if it makes you feel better, i just lost a kronos ( 750 mils ship alone ) and destroyed modules on it of about 450 more mils , because the lag in Dodixie prevented the armor repair to turn on until i had 2 % hull left.. then it kicked in .but it was too late. I am expecting a petition response similar to yours , so it'll probably be 1.2 billions loss for me and i am not quiting eve , i just curse my guts out at the damn 300 people on local systems and ccp's need for speed initiative .
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MotoMissles
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Posted - 2008.04.24 22:33:00 -
[65]
Edited by: MotoMissles on 24/04/2008 22:34:44 How to have your cake and eat it too...in terms of looting/salvaging, isk/hour, preventing loot thieves, etc.
Start an alt (use ISK to pay for the account...320mil every 3 months isn't hard to come by), and train him/her to fly a salvaging destroyer or battlecruiser. I suggest a BC (Hurricane personally) for level 4's because if the salvager is engaged, they'll hold long enough to warp out. Clean up wrecks while you create new ones. This leaves less time for thieves to show up.
If a thief does show up while you're in combat, warp out and let his little destroyer deal with the 5 battleships you were tanking. Then, come back and salvage his ship's wreck. My favorite part btw. It's happened to me twice.
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Tony Unrau
Caldari Kraken's Teeth Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.25 02:49:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tai Paktu Edited by: Tai Paktu on 24/04/2008 19:22:47 Logistics pilot = Raven pilot.
Otherwise, bug.
edit for actual rules
Ok, I'll be a little more helpful.
The T1 frig (Pilot A) steals from your wreck. He is now aggressed to you and your entire corp, if you're in a player corp. You fire on player A, recriprocating his aggression. He can no fire back. The rest of his corp cannot.
Pilot B (Logistics) and Pilot C (Domi) warp in [classic tarp btw, silly to fall for it but you live- or not- and learn in EvE) and remote rep Pilot A, flagging themselves to you and your corp. You fire at Pilot B flagging yourself to Pilot B only, not his corp. Pilot B dies, probably comes back in that Raven and then you die.
Check your kill and loss mail. The Raven pilot must be the logistics pilot or this was, to my understanding of agression flags, a bug.
Checked my Logs multiple times he is what they're telling me (which you guys are telling me is a bug, and CCP is not)
The logistics kill: Victim: Canis Minoris Alliance: NONE Corp: Combined Imperial Fleet Destroyed: Osprey System: Aramachi Security: 0.5 Damage Taken: 3332
Involved parties:
Name: Tony Unrau (laid the final blow) Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Kraken's Teeth Syndicate Ship: Nighthawk Weapon: Scourge Heavy Missile Damage Done: 3332
The killing of me: Victim: Tony Unrau Alliance: NONE Corp: Kraken's Teeth Syndicate Destroyed: Nighthawk System: Aramachi Security: 0.5 Damage Taken: 160372
Involved parties:
Name: Pithatis Revolter / Guristas Pirates Damage Done: 135739
Name: UrsaeMajoris (laid the final blow) Security: 3.9 Alliance: NONE Corp: Combined Imperial Fleet Ship: Raven Weapon: Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Damage Done: 23366
Name: Musashibou Benkei Security: 0.9 Alliance: NONE Corp: Combined Imperial Fleet Ship: Dominix Weapon: Ogre I Damage Done: 1267
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Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.04.25 02:54:00 -
[67]
It was teh revolter.
On a serious note, that is weird...
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Tony Unrau
Caldari Kraken's Teeth Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.25 03:05:00 -
[68]
Ok now im starting to wonder... That's very fishy, you guys brought up a very good point, I never fired at the raven pilot, stole from him nor aggressed him in any which way..
How was it he got kill rights on me?
It couldnt have been the fact that he was in the same corp as the loot thief or the logistics ship I killed.. He didnt jump ships, he was not flashing red to me.
*Jaw drops*..
Following up on the petition and Alexandra Pizdicea, yes as stupid as it is I does make me feel better even though you may get your things back if it shows in the system it was due to lag on CCP's part and not due to your computer stuttering.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.25 05:35:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Alexandra Pizdicea if it makes you feel better, i just lost a kronos ( 750 mils ship alone ) and destroyed modules on it of about 450 more mils , because the lag in Dodixie prevented the armor repair to turn on until i had 2 % hull left.. then it kicked in .but it was too late. I am expecting a petition response similar to yours , so it'll probably be 1.2 billions loss for me and i am not quiting eve , i just curse my guts out at the damn 300 people on local systems and ccp's need for speed initiative .
you would jump into a mission without a repper already running with 300 in local....
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Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.25 06:45:00 -
[70]
Something doesn't make sence.
Where is the T1 minnie cruiser on the kill mail?
How did the Domi get in an attack? You stated you attacked a minnie cruiser, then the logistic's ship. The Logistic ship's pilot stayed in a pod correct?
I see 4 pilots with your description.
T1 Cruiser (should be on you kill mail but is not) Logistic ship Raven Domi
People are saying the logistic's ship pilot went and got a raven, that did not happen according to your kill mail. He wasn't the Domi pilot ether.
Ether something is missing from your story or it was a bug or it was an aggression flagging stiuation I don't know about myself.
Don't know which but good luck, looks like a bug to me if your story is correct.
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Hoshi
Black Water.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 08:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
you would jump into a mission without a repper already running with 300 in local....
You would run missions in a system with 300 people in local... ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.25 13:53:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Andrue on 25/04/2008 13:53:49 *DELETED* -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Tony Unrau
Caldari Kraken's Teeth Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.25 14:58:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Tony Unrau on 25/04/2008 14:58:55
Originally by: Ashina Sito
Where is the T1 minnie cruiser on the kill mail?
How did the Domi get in an attack?
T1 Cruiser (should be on you kill mail but is not) Logistic ship Raven Domi
Correct there were these 4 ships. I attacked the Cruiser first, got him to 1/4th armor when the other 3 people jumped in and saved him in the nick of time by repping him.
The Logistics ship and the Domi had reppers, used them on the T1 Cruiser and flashed red. The raven sat there, looked pretty and did nothing.
Noticing my strategy of attacking a ship that was being repped by multiple ships was futile, I attacked the logistics ship blowing him up. Than proceeded back to the T1 cruiser, As I was doing that the Domi and Raven flew back towards me along with the T1 cruiser and began to box me in so I couldn't move.
Noticing a repper running from the domi to the T1 cruiser, and the fact that the T1 cruisers tank was still not breaking I stopped firing on it, Reloaded, and began firing at the Domi (this was just prior to them boxing me in actually)
PS: There was not enough time for the T1 cruiser pilot to get into the raven as I died within 1-2minutes max. |
CetusOfAsuran
GHOSTS OF THE FIRST AND ONLY
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Posted - 2008.04.25 20:03:00 -
[74]
The cruiser i think would only show if it fired on him at any time if it didnt contribute damage or die it wouldnt show, i think.
But i whole heartedly agree that a bug is out there being exploited as had a similar exp. I was invited to help someone on a mission, being nice(then) i accepted fitted ship slightly dif in case of the old wardec scam. Checked the player who was fleeting me and was part of an npc corp - so no war dec I was then warped to a part of completely empty space where low and behold another player was waiting who immediately locked and started scramming and shooting me therefore agressing(as far as i know) me illegally and should of been wtfbbq concordokend pretty quickly. 19mins later i die by his hand. Anyone explain that one? this was in dodixie by the way which is a 0.9 system.
I later got the "no bug or exploit blah blah we cant be bothered to actually look into to it reply" |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.04.25 21:13:00 -
[75]
Probably invited someone to the fleet once you got there. It's been posted about a million times, if you're going to help someone, have them join your fleet, not the other way around.
High sec isn't safe, just safer, and there are plenty of scams. If you just assume it's safe or take half-assed precautions, don't be surprise if your ship goes boom.
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Karan Kaldarian
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:32:00 -
[76]
Thanx a lot for your precious (and hard payed) info.
I learned that in Eve you must not trust anyone.Especially in pvm. In the same position I have probably warped out at firs glance, for several reasons . One of this reasons is that every day somebody invents something to make you loose you ship. So , even after the first 10 seconds, something should have made you thinking about "why a so small ship is provoking me, why all these guys are here and for what"......'hummm somthing is going wrong'. I should have gone back to station and close my mission even without destroying all cans. For sure it seems that some engagement rules must be cleared....... I feel that this kind of exploit in high sec will encrease and Eve staff will be obliged to give a deep-look into this.
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Hotice
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Posted - 2008.04.26 02:26:00 -
[77]
Had almost same happened to me near motsu earlier. The difference is that the maller didn't last very long under fire from my Nightmare. When the other 4 friends showed up, all they saw was his pod. So, the best way to deal with this kind of situation is to either ignore the thief or kill it quickly. Most of the times, they are not alone. Let him fire the first shot then you can fight him alone without worry. If they bring support ships, just turn around and leave. If you got scrambled, just go into full tanking mode. One ship alone cannot kill you nor could you kill him alone. So after a while, petition gm and ask to break up the fight since it is a pointless fight.
Don't attack the support ships unless they fired on you first which they cannot in high sec. If they lock you down but cannot kill you, you can ask gm to stop the fight. However, it means that you will waste around 30 minutes at least on this. The current rules for salvage thief+support ships are just silly. It is kind of pointless to even try to kill them. Too much trouble unless you could end the fight within first 4 volley.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.04.26 05:11:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Karan Kaldarian
Thanx a lot for your precious (and hard payed) info.
I learned that in Eve you must not trust anyone.Especially in pvm. In the same position I have probably warped out at firs glance, for several reasons . One of this reasons is that every day somebody invents something to make you loose you ship. So , even after the first 10 seconds, something should have made you thinking about "why a so small ship is provoking me, why all these guys are here and for what"......'hummm somthing is going wrong'. I should have gone back to station and close my mission even without destroying all cans. For sure it seems that some engagement rules must be cleared....... I feel that this kind of exploit in high sec will encrease and Eve staff will be obliged to give a deep-look into this.
CCP sucks at documenting things, including rules. It's a complex game, and for most things they rely on word-of-mouth and forums to do the documenting for them. It's a bad system IMO, but it's nothing new with this game.
My point is simply that in a faction fitted command ship (I wouldn't mission in that period, but assuming I did), if I was in a situation where the rules were questionable, I wouldn't assume I was safe in high sec and fight it out with multiple people over a few million ISK worth of loot.
I doubt they invented anything new. I doubt it's a bug. Seems like CCP agrees. It could be a bug, but it doesn't sound like it to me. If I had to guess, I'd say you missed something in the heat of the moment, not surprising when you are in a billion isk ship and people are swarming you, haha. Lofty scams have been around forever, people still fall for that (as one poster here said happened to him). The problem is people keep falling for that stuff, heh, even though it's been posted on the forums many times (again evidence of having to rely on forums/second-hand information because CCP can't document anything )
If they conclude it is tho, grats to you. I don't disagree with you that they need to clarify this stuff. I just am not surprised by what happened is all I'm saying.
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marie blueprint
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Posted - 2008.04.26 11:52:00 -
[79]
mission looters and salvage thieves a bane in this game. there are entire corps dedicated to this type of griefing ( it is griefing dont care what u think) had one in my mission last night he flashed red i blew him out of his frig. i was 180 km from the warp in point when he warped back in in his pvp ship.i agroed the room and warped out.saw his pod go to the station 10 min later lol.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.26 12:39:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Durzel on 26/04/2008 12:41:23
Originally by: marie blueprint mission looters and salvage thieves a bane in this game. there are entire corps dedicated to this type of griefing ( it is griefing dont care what u think) had one in my mission last night he flashed red i blew him out of his frig. i was 180 km from the warp in point when he warped back in in his pvp ship.i agroed the room and warped out.saw his pod go to the station 10 min later lol.
That story doesn't stack up. If he warped back in 180km from the warp-in point the rats would've been too far away to attack him (even if they aggro'd). I don't know of any L4 mission where you are instantly scrammed as soon as you arrive.
Nice tale though.
Incidentally my attitude to salvage/loot thieves in missions is: "Is what they're stealing equal to/greater than the cost of my ship?" - if it is (which it never is) I attack, otherwise I let them fill their boots. Even if you do aggress them, and assuming they have no help standing by, you're not going to have a scram fitted, doubtful even a web, so unless you're going to pop them in a few volleys they'll be able to escape the moment they realise they're outmatched. Why risk your ship in the first place?
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Rafein
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Posted - 2008.04.26 14:58:00 -
[81]
Correct me if I'm mistaking, but does it not work like this.
A thief comes in and begins stealing/salvaging your loot. This act causes him to aggress you, and you are free to attack him.
You begin attacking the theif, which you are free to do.
Support for the theif appears, and begins repping the theif. This flags the support as PvP, but as they have not attacked you, not an aggressor.
You attack the logistic ship, which Concord will not interfere with, but now you are the aggressor on the logistical ship, and his gang.
The logistical ships gang kill you, and since you are aggressor to them, concord does not interfere.
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Tony Unrau
Caldari Kraken's Teeth Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.26 21:33:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Rafein Correct me if I'm mistaking, but does it not work like this.
A thief comes in and begins stealing/salvaging your loot. This act causes him to aggress you, and you are free to attack him.
You begin attacking the theif, which you are free to do.
Support for the theif appears, and begins repping the theif. This flags the support as PvP, but as they have not attacked you, not an aggressor.
You attack the logistic ship, which Concord will not interfere with, but now you are the aggressor on the logistical ship, and his gang.
The logistical ships gang kill you, and since you are aggressor to them, concord does not interfere.
Your wrong on the 2nd to last sentence, pvping in highsec = the whole world could be flashing red to you, but the only ones that can attack you are the ones you hit first. You will than flash red to them and they can commence firing. I know because ive read over all the FAQ's the GM gave me.
Still no follow up on my petition yet, guessing they are checking their logs.
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Shinzu Takigawa
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Posted - 2008.04.27 00:38:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Shinzu Takigawa on 27/04/2008 00:38:00 It really does not matter if this was a bug or not.
1) Everyone knows eve is laggy and buggy as hell and ccp won't do nothing about anything screwy causing you to lose stuff in game.
2) Think before you shoot. You didn't. Wrecks/loot...or......900mill ship+equip.......Wrecks/loot.......900mill......erm ok I will try and shoot. Dee dee dee. Next time carry on with your mission ignore the idiot stealing your wrecks. Take the loss on the chin and move on. Same with can theives and there even easier to get around. Becasue you did not do this you ended up loosing 900mill.
3) That was the exact moment you made your mistake that cost you 900mill. When you valued wrecks and loot over your 900mill ship. Whether you got blown up because of a glitch or because they just got you really does not matter. Either reason could have been avoided if you just think first and use your common sense.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Spaceways
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Posted - 2008.04.27 02:59:00 -
[84]
I doubt that it was a bug. You must have done something. Maybe you looted the wreck of the initial frigate thief? Or maybe the whole story is a fake... the absence of the Stabber from your killmail is quite telling. --- I'm looking for a good 0.0 corp to join. |
Max Nero
Xeno Tech Corp United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.27 05:04:00 -
[85]
Tony, to answer your question - one of the pilots you fired on has switched ships with Raven. Those guys have tried the same tactics with my corp.
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Myyona
Minmatar Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:09:00 -
[86]
The ONLY thing I learned from this thread is that engagement rules in high are (far too) complicated and the documentation is poor.
I wonder how many people (GMs included) actually know the system works. As example, a story like this:
Originally by: Traderboz story
makes me confused as I thought can flipping NEVER would allow podding in high sec.
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Slayed
Caldari Toys R Us Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:29:00 -
[87]
haahahahah funny ^^ i say the logistic pilot was in t3h raven ] |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:42:00 -
[88]
Let me clarify my post. I'm not saying what I did was legal. I got owned by Concord after podding him, and I knew I would.
The point of that story was simply that you should never feel totally safe in EVE, even in high sec. That guy thought he would self-destruct and then run his mouth and laugh at my 1 week old alt, which is fair. He's entitled to do that. But had he been a bit more cautious, he'd have laughed at me while warping out with his pod, and then he'd still have all his implants. But even with the penalties, as soon as you give someone a reason to take you out in high sec (whether it's equipping lots of faction gear or talking smack), you might suddenly find yourself in a less-than-safe environment.
Simply put, even in a situation where Concord does get involved, that doesn't make you completely safe.
But that's not the OP's situation, so enough of that. In situations where the rules are trickier, i.e. OP's, then I (and others that have posted) would simply urge caution. That is, when your ship is a faction fitted command ship, don't brawl with loot thieves.
Honestly, I doubt the rules are really that complex here. I think he missed someone coming in and out and getting a Raven, or something along those lines. The rules governing this situation aren't the simplest (and the documentation is terrible), but they aren't random. That is, if the Raven pilot was just sitting there watching this happen, I find it very unlikely that he would just suddenly, almost magically have kill rights on the OP.
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Amateratsu
Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.04.27 11:05:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Max Nero Tony, to answer your question - one of the pilots you fired on has switched ships with Raven. Those guys have tried the same tactics with my corp.
Originally by: Slayed haahahahah funny ^^ i say the logistic pilot was in t3h raven
Failing to read the killmails above^^ FTL
The Raven pilot was a completely different char to those piloting the other ships.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Spaceways
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Posted - 2008.04.27 19:11:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Amateratsu The Raven pilot was a completely different char to those piloting the other ships.
The similarity of character names indicates that they're either alts or close friends. The killmails were obviously edited for reasons unknown. There is a solution to this mystery and the OP is hiding the vital clues for his own reasons. --- I'm looking for a good 0.0 corp to join. |
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