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Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 14:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Garion Avarr It's called hit and run. Guerilla Warfare. Read up on the historical uses of it. Then understand why the fact that it exists along with regular fleet combat makes Eve a richer game, both on a tactical and strategic level. The whole basis of hit and run is to make use of a lighter, understrength and more agile unit/group to take on a larger group which they would not be able to in a straight up conventional fight. Guerilla warfare (both in historical and EVE gameplay context) does not rely on flying too fast to be hit - its about being flexible, so to be quite honest, trying to defend the current situation by pulling that 'reference' out of nowhere is misplaced. Skirmish warfare adds a strategic level, yes. But the current variant of 'skirmish' warfare is simply blobs on wheels, and adds nothing to the overall strategic enrichment of EVE gameplay. ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 15:22:00 - [92] Edited by: Leon 026 on 24/04/2008 15:24:42 Originally by: Megan Maynard snip for brevity Had a longer post written up but I got side-tracked with serious inty dogfighting issues that current nano-levels have created (so I scrapped it). Anyways, point form : * 7k/s inty is just an inty with T2 MWD and polycarb. Nothing special. Its average. A highly specialized inty, would be a 10k/s crow [gistii + polycarb], or a 14-16k/s crow [gistii, polycarbs, snakes] * Saying that because they spent more money, they should win, is setting a dangerous course for EVE. Because I can spend 3bil+ on a nano-able ship, should that mean I should automatically win? I disagree - isk investments should give an edge, not guarenteed victory. * Suggestion of precision lights is about 1-2 years behind (it worked during RMR, not now). Base precision light missile explosion velocity (exp.v) is 3,000m/s. With Target Navigation Prediction V its 4,500m/s. You won't be killing an average 7k/s inty with that despite the 3-4 weeks time investment. Essentially spending a day to make 100-120mil isk > 3-4 week time investment. While in an inty vs inty, combat maneuvering will work to a degree, ACM is rendered less effective at high level dogfights (10-14k/s levels) due to ACM not reducing said 10-14k inty below 6k/s. EDIT - apologies for the double-post. ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings
Anubis Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:23:00 - [93] Originally by: Garion Avarr Originally by: Indyman tech2 THEN WARPED AWAY WITH NO LOSSES...thats so stupid. itsl ike the new wcs, no need to commit to a fight. It's called hit and run. Guerilla Warfare. Read up on the historical uses of it. Then understand why the fact that it exists along with regular fleet combat makes Eve a richer game, both on a tactical and strategic level. There are ships in Eve that are intended for this...and if you notice something, all of them have a weakness. I don't see why nanos shouldn't be limited to a small number of ships if nano hunters are also similarly limited to a small number of ships. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:26:00 - [94] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/04/2008 16:26:17 Originally by: Garion Avarr Originally by: Indyman tech2 THEN WARPED AWAY WITH NO LOSSES...thats so stupid. itsl ike the new wcs, no need to commit to a fight. It's called hit and run. Guerilla Warfare. Read up on the historical uses of it. Then understand why the fact that it exists along with regular fleet combat makes Eve a richer game, both on a tactical and strategic level. Yes and before the age of nano****gin guerilla warfare was performed by FRIGATES. Thats how it should be. Now that hacs are going almost as fast its totally breaking the speed vs dps balance. But Im not surprised if you dont belive in that balance. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
knowican Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:54:00 - [95] I have heard someone say a neut dominix can do it. 4x Heavy neuts should shut down the cap on any HAC. Even if he injects the suprise of it should be enough for you to MWD to him and drop dual webs on him. Then just drone away? Is this a valid tactic? Even so the range on the Meta 4 heavy neut is 25km and a t2 disruptor is 24 so you could probibly run him out far enough to get away if it went south.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:00:00 - [96] Originally by: knowican I have heard someone say a neut dominix can do it. 4x Heavy neuts should shut down the cap on any HAC. Even if he injects the suprise of it should be enough for you to MWD to him and drop dual webs on him. Then just drone away? Is this a valid tactic? Even so the range on the Meta 4 heavy neut is 25km and a t2 disruptor is 24 so you could probibly run him out far enough to get away if it went south. Domi doesn't accelerate fast enough, before you get into web range that hac will have drifted off beyond 24km and warped off. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Efdi Minmatar Brannigan's Law	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:18:00 - [97] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Domi doesn't accelerate fast enough, before you get into web range that hac will have drifted off beyond 24km and warped off. You're doing it wrong.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:19:00 - [98] Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Domi doesn't accelerate fast enough, before you get into web range that hac will have drifted off beyond 24km and warped off. You're doing it wrong. You can't control the hac pilot. If he orbits he won't be drifting INTO you. That's a fact. There is nothing you can do about that. What is your point except typing one liners? -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:20:00 - [99] Originally by: Leon 026 Edited by: Leon 026 on 24/04/2008 15:24:42 Originally by: Megan Maynard snip for brevity Had a longer post written up but I got side-tracked with serious inty dogfighting issues that current nano-levels have created (so I scrapped it). Anyways, point form : * 7k/s inty is just an inty with T2 MWD and polycarb. Nothing special. Its average. A highly specialized inty, would be a 10k/s crow [gistii + polycarb], or a 14-16k/s crow [gistii, polycarbs, snakes] * Saying that because they spent more money, they should win, is setting a dangerous course for EVE. Because I can spend 3bil+ on a nano-able ship, should that mean I should automatically win? I disagree - isk investments should give an edge, not guarenteed victory. * Suggestion of precision lights is about 1-2 years behind (it worked during RMR, not now). Base precision light missile explosion velocity (exp.v) is 3,000m/s. With Target Navigation Prediction V its 4,500m/s. You won't be killing an average 7k/s inty with that despite the 3-4 weeks time investment. Essentially spending a day to make 100-120mil isk > 3-4 week time investment. While in an inty vs inty, combat maneuvering will work to a degree, ACM is rendered less effective at high level dogfights (10-14k/s levels) due to ACM not reducing said 10-14k inty below 6k/s. EDIT - apologies for the double-post. You realize your "average" inty is using WAY more isk in rigs than it would spend on the "specialized" MWD would spend. B-type gistii costs 45 million. It will get you to 10km/s with rigs, so don't pull that a-type only works stuff. So an average inty is spending 100+ million in rigs on a 8-12 million ship. And to make it a "specialized" ship, they only need to add 45 million more? Your logic fails. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:22:00 - [100] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Garion Avarr Originally by: Indyman tech2 THEN WARPED AWAY WITH NO LOSSES...thats so stupid. itsl ike the new wcs, no need to commit to a fight. It's called hit and run. Guerilla Warfare. Read up on the historical uses of it. Then understand why the fact that it exists along with regular fleet combat makes Eve a richer game, both on a tactical and strategic level. There are ships in Eve that are intended for this...and if you notice something, all of them have a weakness. I don't see why nanos shouldn't be limited to a small number of ships if nano hunters are also similarly limited to a small number of ships. Nanos are limited to Ishtar, Curse, Vagabond, Rapier, Huggin. You also do realize the amount of isk that is POURED into these ships. Don't ***** about a ship type because your not willing to spend the same amount of isk to compete. --

Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:23:00 - [101] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Domi doesn't accelerate fast enough, before you get into web range that hac will have drifted off beyond 24km and warped off. You're doing it wrong. You can't control the hac pilot. If he orbits he won't be drifting INTO you. That's a fact. There is nothing you can do about that. What is your point except typing one liners? Fit a MWD. --
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:28:00 - [102] Originally by: Leon 026 Edited by: Leon 026 on 24/04/2008 15:24:42 Originally by: Megan Maynard snip for brevity Had a longer post written up but I got side-tracked with serious inty dogfighting issues that current nano-levels have created (so I scrapped it). Anyways, point form : * 7k/s inty is just an inty with T2 MWD and polycarb. Nothing special. Its average. A highly specialized inty, would be a 10k/s crow [gistii + polycarb], or a 14-16k/s crow [gistii, polycarbs, snakes] * Saying that because they spent more money, they should win, is setting a dangerous course for EVE. Because I can spend 3bil+ on a nano-able ship, should that mean I should automatically win? I disagree - isk investments should give an edge, not guarenteed victory. * Suggestion of precision lights is about 1-2 years behind (it worked during RMR, not now). Base precision light missile explosion velocity (exp.v) is 3,000m/s. With Target Navigation Prediction V its 4,500m/s. You won't be killing an average 7k/s inty with that despite the 3-4 weeks time investment. Essentially spending a day to make 100-120mil isk > 3-4 week time investment. While in an inty vs inty, combat maneuvering will work to a degree, ACM is rendered less effective at high level dogfights (10-14k/s levels) due to ACM not reducing said 10-14k inty below 6k/s. EDIT - apologies for the double-post. A ship going 10-14 k/s SHOULD be hard to kill.............How is this so hard to understand? The OP wasn't attacked by 7 inty's, it probably had a vaga, huginn, ishtar, etc in there too. So now add to the fact that all these ships are incredibly expensive when fitted for nano? Why can't the economics directly affect ship performance? Eve is all about isk. The simple fact is the OP thought they outnumbered the gang when in fact a smaller lighter force that had spent way more money won the fight. It also sounds like the nano gang was clearly the smarter party. It's not that hard people, pick a target, spread out so it can't orbit all of you out of range and blow it up! JEEEEZ. It's not like this mega went down right away, no way it did. As soon as you kill a nano ship or get close to it they usually run away since their ships are so damn expensive. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:41:00 - [103] Originally by: Terraform Originally by: Euriti "OMG I CANT WIN IN COOKIECUTTER HACK AND SLASH SETUP NERF NREF NREF NREF" Just no. Nanos add flavor to the game and more dynamic play. Nerfing nanos would also destroy Ishtar, Wow, this post takes the prize for being the most ********. First of all, Nanos ARE a cookiecutter setup, don't think it isn't! Second of all, yes, variety is good, but everyone and his cat is flying nano, so where's the variety? third, The ishtar was fine before nanos, i'm sure it'll be fine after it as well. It didn't come out the way I wanted. Let me rephrase: "OMG I CANT WIN IN AN F1-F8 THEN ORBIT TANK AND DAMAGE SETUP NERF PLX" Just no. Nano's add more flavor to the game and more dynamic play. Nanocombat is more exciting than above slowboat combat with no dynamic action. Nerfing nanos would also make the Ishtar very mediocre, essentially just a mini dominix which is more agile and a bit faster, but more fragile. Did I express myself better?
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:52:00 - [104] Originally by: Captain Sonata Just looked at the killboard, the Sex Panther's guy flies minmatar almost exclusively, vagabonds in particular, no wonder he's defending the whole nano thing so strongly. You do know that a vaga without ANY speed mods but 2 Polycarbs will still go over 4k per second. With 2 ODs it will go in excess of 4.5k and the nano nerf is supposed to be stacking speed mods. The nerf won't hit the Vaga but every other nano ship. What ship are people whining about? Vaga mostly.
Efdi Minmatar Brannigan's Law	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:58:00 - [105] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Fit a MWD. OSHI- (Oh, look. A one-liner.) Also, :boosh:.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:59:00 - [106] Originally by: Leon 026 * 7k/s inty is just an inty with T2 MWD and polycarb. Nothing special. Its average. A highly specialized inty, would be a 10k/s crow [gistii + polycarb], or a 14-16k/s crow [gistii, polycarbs, snakes] my crow gets 7km/s with t2 mwd, no rigs, zors custom hyper nav, 2 other 3% implants, and skirmish warfare 3. were I to train a few more skills up i could get that 7km/s without the skirmish warfare. just under 10km a sec with poly carbs and t2 fit. Anyways, medium pulse lasers hit nanofags rather nice.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:05:00 - [107] I'm still wondering why the OP didn't take 10 of their BSs, warp to a gate/planet/asteroid belt/whatever. Then warp back in at 100-150km, call a target and one-volley a few of those nanos. You only had to kill one or two and the others would have panicked and scattered. If they attack the other fleet, they are in range of the original fleet's longer-ranged ships. Unless everything was plated blaster boats, in which case I recommend you evaluate taking a mixed fleet next time. Maybe with remote reppers, support ships, etc. One trick fleets normally turn into wrecks against a better-prepared enemy....
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:06:00 - [108] Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Marcus Druallis Fit a MWD. OSHI- (Oh, look. A one-liner.) Also, :boosh:. You didn't elaborate much yourself there bud. I said a one-liner because that is all it needs. People state that nano ships are faster than BS's even when neuted. This is not true. Fit a goddamn MWD to your pvp ships. Without doing this you have no right to ***** about the state of combat. Ever. --
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:07:00 - [109] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Nanos are limited to Ishtar, Curse, Vagabond, Rapier, Huggin. Scimitar, Zealot, Cerebus, etc. Not all nano up that well (ie: cerebus), but most nano because it works. Anything cruiser sized with the right slot layouts works. Originally by: Marcus Druallis You also do realize the amount of isk that is POURED into these ships. As stated before isk should give an edge. Speed gives way more than an edge so yet more isk is spent on speed related ships/modules. Many of these ships cost around 200-250mil which isn't that much isk in comparison to what they can do. The isk is far better spent on speed than for a battleship. Originally by: Megan Maynard The simple fact is the OP thought they outnumbered the gang when in fact a smaller lighter force that had spent way more money won the fight. It also sounds like the nano gang was clearly the smarter party. Yes, the OP made a mistake. They should have brought nanos themselves to the fight. Anything else that isn't there expressly to support the nanos (logistics/falons) was a liablity. If you add it up most likely the 30man gang brought more in terms of isk. The smaller gang was smarter as they spent their isk on what counts: speed. Originally by: Euriti Nano's add more flavor to the game and more dynamic play. Nanocombat is more exciting than above slowboat combat with no dynamic action. Quote: They force everyone to fit mwd. They force everyone to bring along huginns/rapiers and their own counter nanos. They force everyone to adopt cookie cutter setups. Quick, tell me the standard fittings for a vaga, ishtar, etc. Perhaps its not the cookie cutter nano versus cookie cutter nanos fights that you like. Perhaps its speed. Then by adding a long range, low strength web (based on sig radius?) nanos could go crazy fast but be countered by a few non nanos working together. The only thing that makes sense to fly these days are nanos or nano support.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:07:00 - [110] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I'm still wondering why the OP didn't take 10 of their BSs, warp to a gate/planet/asteroid belt/whatever. Then warp back in at 100-150km, call a target and one-volley a few of those nanos. You only had to kill one or two and the others would have panicked and scattered. If they attack the other fleet, they are in range of the original fleet's longer-ranged ships. Unless everything was plated blaster boats, in which case I recommend you evaluate taking a mixed fleet next time. Maybe with remote reppers, support ships, etc. One trick fleets normally turn into wrecks against a better-prepared enemy.... but but but blasters and heavy drones do more dps!!!!!

Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:11:00 - [111] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 24/04/2008 18:11:04 Originally by: ***zilla Originally by:** Marcus Druallis Nanos are limited to Ishtar, Curse, Vagabond, Rapier, Huggin. Scimitar, Zealot, Cerebus, etc. Not all nano up that well (ie: cerebus), but most nano because it works. Anything cruiser sized with the right slot layouts works. Originally by: Marcus Druallis You also do realize the amount of isk that is POURED into these ships. As stated before isk should give an edge. Speed gives way more than an edge so yet more isk is spent on speed related ships/modules. Many of these ships cost around 200-250mil which isn't that much isk in comparison to what they can do. The isk is far better spent on speed than for a battleship. Originally by: Megan Maynard The simple fact is the OP thought they outnumbered the gang when in fact a smaller lighter force that had spent way more money won the fight. It also sounds like the nano gang was clearly the smarter party. Yes, the OP made a mistake. They should have brought nanos themselves to the fight. Anything else that isn't there expressly to support the nanos (logistics/falons) was a liablity. If you add it up most likely the 30man gang brought more in terms of isk. The smaller gang was smarter as they spent their isk on what counts: speed. Originally by: Euriti Nano's add more flavor to the game and more dynamic play. Nanocombat is more exciting than above slowboat combat with no dynamic action. Quote: They force everyone to fit mwd. They force everyone to bring along huginns/rapiers and their own counter nanos. They force everyone to adopt cookie cutter setups. Quick, tell me the standard fittings for a vaga, ishtar, etc. Perhaps its not the cookie cutter nano versus cookie cutter nanos fights that you like. Perhaps its speed. Then by adding a long range, low strength web (based on sig radius?) nanos could go crazy fast but be countered by a few non nanos working together. The only thing that makes sense to fly these days are nanos or nano support. [/quote/] The other ships you mention for nano's nano up horribly. Missiles tear them apart, and they can't even really do damage at speed. And yes, alot of money is spent on BS's, but those are fully insurable. A polyrigged vagabond is not. --
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:13:00 - [112] Originally by: *****zilla They force everyone to fit mwd. You really should on most battleships.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:17:00 - [113] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I'm still wondering why the OP didn't take 10 of their BSs, If they've a mixed gang they may not have 10 snipers. What you're suggesting is fairly complicated and unlikely to work as a spur of a moment tactic. It requires: 1) Splitting the fleet into snipers + cover 2) Using a ceptor for the sling 3) Waiting for the BS to align, warp, align, warp 4) Doing 10k-18k alpha for the one shot, or having enough suicidal tacklers to hold a nano for 20-30 seconds. 5) Warping out before the nanos are on top of the snipers What you're suggesting is a great setup for the nanos. It splits the fleet and makes it easier to pick off targets. The snipers are unlikely to have the dps for the one shot nor the tacklers for follow ups. Most likely what happens is the nanos don't sit still and use the time in warp to pick off more targets. There is a tactic that is excellent for groups of 30man gangs and is dramatically simpler to execute: fly nanos.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:18:00 - [114] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Marcus Druallis Fit a MWD. OSHI- (Oh, look. A one-liner.) Also, :boosh:. You didn't elaborate much yourself there bud. I said a one-liner because that is all it needs. People state that nano ships are faster than BS's even when neuted. This is not true. Fit a goddamn MWD to your pvp ships. Without doing this you have no right to ***** about the state of combat. Ever. Agility says you are wrong. It takes 23+ seconds for any battleship to get to 3/4 speed. A vagabond will be going 533 or more in about 5 seconds. And that is if it doesn't have any cap left for a single burst. This means that in 23 seconds for you to get to 700m/s the Vagabond has traveled around 7km more than you.[This is assuming you were not moving at the time of the neuting which may increase this time significantly] 7km is typically enough to get him out of the range of heavy neutralizers and scramblers. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Efdi Minmatar Brannigan's Law	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Marcus Druallis You didn't elaborate much yourself there bud. I said a one-liner because that is all it needs. People state that nano ships are faster than BS's even when neuted. This is not true. Fit a goddamn MWD to your pvp ships. Without doing this you have no right to ***** about the state of combat. Ever. Not sure why you're trying to troll me, I happen to agree with you. My poast was in response to Lyria Faildancer.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:20:00 - [116] Originally by: *****zilla What you're suggesting is a great setup for the nanos. It splits the fleet and makes it easier to pick off targets. The snipers are unlikely to have the dps for the one shot nor the tacklers for follow ups. Most likely what happens is the nanos don't sit still and use the time in warp to pick off more targets. It also makes the battleships themselves more vulnerable since they won't have the tracking to hit the smaller ships once they have closed at all, which might give the nano-ships a very strong absolute dps advantage. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:23:00 - [117] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Marcus Druallis Fit a MWD. OSHI- (Oh, look. A one-liner.) Also, :boosh:. You didn't elaborate much yourself there bud. I said a one-liner because that is all it needs. People state that nano ships are faster than BS's even when neuted. This is not true. Fit a goddamn MWD to your pvp ships. Without doing this you have no right to ***** about the state of combat. Ever. Agility says you are wrong. It takes 23+ seconds for any battleship to get to 3/4 speed. A vagabond will be going 533 or more in about 5 seconds. And that is if it doesn't have any cap left for a single burst. This means that in 23 seconds for you to get to 700m/s the Vagabond has traveled around 7km more than you.[This is assuming you were not moving at the time of the neuting which may increase this time significantly] 7km is typically enough to get him out of the range of heavy neutralizers and scramblers. Yes, if this was a one on one fight between the single neuting BS and the Vagabond, in the end the vaga would leave the field and the BS would hold it. WHo wins, you tell me. BUT. It is much more likely that the BS has a friend or two, and they would easily be able to outmanuever the Vagabond to keep him in range. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:23:00 - [118] Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Marcus Druallis You didn't elaborate much yourself there bud. I said a one-liner because that is all it needs. People state that nano ships are faster than BS's even when neuted. This is not true. Fit a goddamn MWD to your pvp ships. Without doing this you have no right to ***** about the state of combat. Ever. Not sure why you're trying to troll me, I happen to agree with you. My poast was in response to Lyria Faildancer. I thought you were doing the opposite lol. --
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:31:00 - [119] Originally by: Goumindong It also makes the battleships themselves more vulnerable since they won't have the tracking to hit the smaller ships once they have closed at all, which might give the nano-ships a very strong absolute dps advantage. If the BSs in the OP's situation can't handle 5 nanos with their friends within rep range, they were going to die anyways. The snipers WILL destroy any nanos that remain to fight and if they turn to engage the remote snipers then they contend with the group they just left. All of life isn't 1-10km. If you don't adjust your tactics, you will die. Simple enough. THAT is why people don't like nanos; the tried-true plated blaster setups can't fight them effectively and you have to alter your fittings to a more rounded approach.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:32:00 - [120] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 24/04/2008 18:41:20 Originally by: *****zilla Yes. Losing a rigged vaga hurts. The vaga is still a better deal regardless of how much less a bs with insurance is or how much polys are. Spending lots of isk on fittings (billions) should not give that dramatic of an edge. This is the same argument for nanophoons. According to who? You? What about Titans and Motherships. Should you get an edge for investing billions into those? The ability to pop a fleet maybe?



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