Originally by: Tarminic

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What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs?

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Originally by: Kravick Drasari

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The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time.

Also, every ship can equip a MWD. I realize you're suggesting that ABs should be used more often but you can't use a MWD in deadspace. Perhaps there should be more deadspace in game?

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Originally by: Alski

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Originally by: Tarminic

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What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs?

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*Hands Tarminic an Asbestos suit and concrete mittens*

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Kravick Drasari

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The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time.

Also, every ship can equip a MWD. I realize you're suggesting that ABs should be used more often but you can't use a MWD in deadspace. Perhaps there should be more deadspace in game?

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What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Originally by: ceyriot

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Edited by: ceyriot on 25/04/2008 22:28:50

Originally by: Merdaneth

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Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s

I think they can catch batteships...

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Originally by: ceyriot

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Edited by: ceyriot on 25/04/2008 22:28:50

Originally by: Merdaneth

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Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s

I think they can catch batteships...

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Originally by: Tarminic

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What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.

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Originally by: Radcjk

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Ceyriot beat me to the post, but yeah.

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Originally by: Radcjk

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Also, being forced to mount an MWD doesnt take tactical options from you... it increases tactical flexibility. Wether real or fictional no war was ever won standing still.

Speed is life.

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Originally by: Pantheon Lea

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Originally by: Tarminic

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What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.

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That (the bold stuff) is only true in a 1 vs 1 fight.

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Originally by: Davey Chase

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web anyone?

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Originally by: Kravick Drasari

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Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 25/04/2008 22:23:54
The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time. It also massively increases your signature radius making you easier to hit.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 22:44:25

Originally by: Pantheon Lea

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Originally by: Tarminic

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What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.

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That (the bold stuff) is only true in a 1 vs 1 fight.

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How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.

Originally by: Davey Chase

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web anyone?

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You still have to get inside web range first.

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Originally by: Scout McAlt

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Well, small scrambler ranges mean that you really need MWD's.

For example, a ship jumping into a camped system only need to travel 15km to get to gate. Without MWD, he is dead. With MWD, he has a chance. Cov op cloak without MWD can still be decloaked in competent camps.

Some guy plays station games. Only way to knock him off is via a bump, which is usually done by a MWD ship. Should all stations put you outside station at gate range to reduce empisis of MWD?

2 ships scramble each other. If one lacks mwd, his opponent will just MWD away and warp out due to 24km range of scramblers. Are these scramblers long enough?

A bunch of ships are chasing a hauler. Hauler uses mwd trick for max 10 second align insted of 20second+.

Basically MWD is very intergrated in the game. Chaning MWd requires a lot more discussions about how people use MWD's and if that is a good thing or not.

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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interceptors anyone?

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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interceptors anyone?

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They would still need to fit a MWD, which is the entire point.

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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interceptors anyone?

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They would still need to fit a MWD, which is the entire point.

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The point is that for just about every ying there is a yang if done correctly.

Either deal with it or die trying not to.

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Originally by: Everyone Dies

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MWDs should be nerfed 50% across the board

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Originally by: Everyone Dies

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MWDs should be nerfed 50% across the board

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?

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Originally by: Tarminic

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That's irrelevant to the discussion - we're talking about whether it's reasonable that in order for any sub-capital ship to catch a ship with a MWD, it needs to equip a MWD itself. I don't think that this should be the case for ships that are designed to be small and fast, or frigates at all really.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?

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No. He's pointing out that almost any ship with a MWD, outruns almost any ship without a MWD. And using frigates compared to battleships to illustrate this.

The OP makes an excellent point.

I'd also like to throw an oar in, that the divergence is also worse than it appears - larger ships have more slots, which exacerbates this particular difference.

Personally, I find MWDs are mandatory PvP mods.

I would rather they weren't.

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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All the Nano-fits only emphasize the MWD's imbalance. The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.

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Originally by: Face Lifter

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And I insist that making such drastic changes to fundamental design of EVE PvP is simply uncalled for.

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Originally by: Pantheon Lea

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Originally by: Tarminic

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How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.

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A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Well of course it would, any ship with a MWD would outrun anything without one, so where is the problem?, why would you not fit a MWD if you were able to?, you can always set your speed if you need to, its the blue bar at the bottom......

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Quote:

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Fail troll is fail.

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Edited by: Fyrewyre on 25/04/2008 23:13:05
Other things that havent been touched on:

Sig radius increase for using MWD
Cap ?
not able to use in deadspace?

And you still want a nerf?

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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Originally by: Tarminic

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That's irrelevant to the discussion - we're talking about whether it's reasonable that in order for any sub-capital ship to catch a ship with a MWD, it needs to equip a MWD itself. I don't think that this should be the case for ships that are designed to be small and fast, or frigates at all really.

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A more sensible distribution of speed would be for example:

Average Frigate base speed = Average Cruiser speed with AB = Average Battleship speed with MWD.

Meaning frigates can be used without fitting any speed mod in some cases, and no battleship will outrun a frigate once the frigate fits an Afterburner. This is a base comparison before fitting speed modules, rigs etc. or considering ship classes (like a Stabber and Vaga) that are naturally fast for their class.

We all know that bigger ships generally have more room for speed mods, and are better value for isk when it comes to rigs that frigates, so bigger ships will still retain some flexibility in that respect.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?

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I'm beginning to suspect that you're trolling, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


I don't think that MWDs should be mandatory in PvP. Currently they are because the advantages they provide far, far outweigh the disadvantages. This is demonstrated by the fact that the smallest and fastest combat ships in the game cannot catch the slowest battleships if they equip a MWD unless those ships also fit an MWD. Do you think that is reasonable?

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Pantheon Lea

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Originally by: Tarminic

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How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.

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A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.

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Due to the secondary advantages a MWD offers (improved ability to evade bubbles, for example), this rarely happens. How often were you part of any engagement where the majority of players did not fit MWDs? Shooting POSes or other static targets don't count, of course.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.

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Originally by: Alski

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I was thinking along those lines as well... purely theoretical of course, but I think its obvious that the reason why MWDs are near 100% required fitting for PvP is because ALL the ships in Eve are just far too slow at their base speed.

If all ships base speed were what is now currently MWD speed minus say 50%, and ABs were +25% and MWDs +50%, then speed mods would be optional, not required.

I'd love to see this one on the test server just to see how it compares with our Eve... as for weather it would be a good thing or not its hard to say.

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Originally by: Pantheon Lea

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I have been in many fights without a MWD, but i normally never fly solo without it.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Pantheon Lea

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Originally by: Tarminic

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How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.

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A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.

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Due to the secondary advantages a MWD offers (improved ability to evade bubbles, for example), this rarely happens. How often were you part of any engagement where the majority of players did not fit MWDs? Shooting POSes or other static targets don't count, of course.

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).

Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

In other words: if you want to catch a ship with MWD, you need an MWD yourself. The speed difference between no propulsion module or an AB and a MWD is so great that even the fastest ship class (frigate) can not catch the slowest ship class (battleships) unless they fit an MWD too.

Since in many cases you need to 'catch' or at least keep a hostile within scrambler range, this means that as soon as a hostile starts fitting an MWD, you need one too. Without one, you cannot try to dictate range, close with the hostile or outmaneuver him. This means that the more people start to use MWD's, the more neccessary it becomes to fit an MWD yourself.

Once fitting a module becomes a neccesity, its not really a choice anymore. And the point of having fitting slots is making choices. MWD's remove choice from EVE, MWD's remove tactical options from EVE. The speed boost of an MWD is too great in comparison with ship's base speeds and the benefit of an Afterburner.

I'm all in favor of having nano-ships as an option in EVE. I don't mind some ships outrunning missiles and being generally untrackable. I don't mind people in pimped out ships with snake implants achieving crazy speeds. I do think MWD cause to great of a speed difference between those who fit them, and those who don't. The absolute speed has perhaps gotten a bit high with rigs, but its the speed difference that is most important.

The enormous speed boost from a MWD also neccessitates the enormous speed reduction brought about by webbers. If the speed boost would be less, the webber strength could be less as well, and give small ships that are webbed a chance. Together with the 20km max scrambler range, the MWD is the main cause that there is nearly no mid-range combat.

I'm not proposing a solution in my post. I feel we need to analyze and understand the problem well before we can come up with the solution. And I think the aspect of speed differences is more important than absolute speed attainable, and the greatest cause of this is the MWD. This issue hasn't been adressed enough to my liking.

All the Nano-fits only emphasize the MWD's imbalance. The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.

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Originally by: Skjorta

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Do you realize how fast it takes a BS to reach the max speed?

Comparing apples to oranges.

try AB vs AB

not AB vs MWD.

bad troll, 2/10.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 23:30:40

Originally by: Alski

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I was thinking along those lines as well... purely theoretical of course, but I think its obvious that the reason why MWDs are near 100% required fitting for PvP is because ALL the ships in Eve are just far too slow at their base speed.

If all ships base speed were what is now currently MWD speed minus say 50%, and ABs were +25% and MWDs +50%, then speed mods would be optional, not required.

I'd love to see this one on the test server just to see how it compares with our Eve... as for weather it would be a good thing or not its hard to say.

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I was thinking that we might want to go the opposite way, honestly.

Ramping the speed up on all ships means that you have to take a second look at almost EVERYTHING that is dependent on range. And that is...well...almost everything. Also, while combat might become a bit more fast-paced, it will magnify the effects of lag and increase the impact of limited grid sizes.

What I would consider doing - and this is just my opinion - is reduce the speed bonus of cruiser MWDs by about 30-40 percent and the speed bonus of battleship MWDs by 50 percent. Of course, I might be hanged for doing so immediately afterward, but I think it would be better for combat overall.

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).

Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Originally by: Seriya

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The OP's point as I see it, made as it was with a rather strange choice of stastics, is that ABs are rubbish and MWDs are really good. I agree with this point, the modules are not at all balanced. Hypotheticlly speaking, if we increase AB base bonus from +105% to +200%, and decrease MWD base bonus from +500% to +400%, would people still use MWDs over Afterburners as often as they do now?

I think they would, in which case why is the disparity in bonuses so absolutely huge?

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Quote:

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It's outa cap, and no room for tank. MWD on a battleship are for last resort when running.

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Quote:

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It takes a frig 6 seconds max to get full speed, when a battleship has not even reached 100% speed boost. People run to gate's is why you can't get them, not MWD.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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No. He's pointing out that almost any ship with a MWD, outruns almost any ship without a MWD. And using frigates compared to battleships to illustrate this.

The OP makes an excellent point.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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I don't think that MWDs should be mandatory in PvP. Currently they are because the advantages they provide far, far outweigh the disadvantages.

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Actually according to that list an executioner can catch any amarr BS fairly easily since ABs have a lot less cap use and frigates accelerate a lot faster than battleships. Typhoon might give it a shot at outrunning it, but that's what minmatar is supposed to do.

True that if you have an mwd, you usually need an mwd to be caught. But the severe cap and sig radius penalties make using an mwd for long a very, very bad idea.

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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Also make them suffer disruption from Warp jammers/scrammers .. maybe a %40 reduction in MWD speed boost once hit with one.

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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I dont understand where all the nerd-rage in this thread is comming from.

Do these people not realise that the aim of the OP is to ADD another viable speed mod to the game not remove MWDs.

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Quote:

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The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.

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Quote:

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Average Frigate base speed = Average Cruiser speed with AB = Average Battleship speed with MWD.

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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Personaly i think they should leave the speed boost of MWDs alone but make them straight line only.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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It's great being a puppetmaster

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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I dont understand where all the nerd-rage in this thread is comming from.

Do these people not realise that the aim of the OP is to ADD another viable speed mod to the game not remove MWDs.

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The OP said:

Quote:

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The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.

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"TAKE AWAY THE MWD" = "REMOVE MWD"... regardless of whether or not that's exactly what he meant.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Later on in the thread, he states:

Quote:

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Average Frigate base speed = Average Cruiser speed with AB = Average Battleship speed with MWD.

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Which means either frigs get 600-700 m/sec base speed or BS's run 300 m/sec with a MWD.

I'd say there's a problem with the MWD and AB, because I would never fit an AB unless I was going into deadspace.

-Liang

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Almost all PvP ships come with cap boosters nowadays. Using one of those, and assuming you had a dozen charges (half the average BS's cargohold), you could still use it for two minutes or more. In that time you will either defeat the frigate chasing after you or just withdraw.

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Originally by: ceyriot

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Edited by: ceyriot on 25/04/2008 22:28:50

Originally by: Merdaneth

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Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s

I think they can catch batteships...

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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Originally by: OffBeaT

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Edited by: OffBeaT on 26/04/2008 05:59:35

Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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what cap consumption are you joking or somthing. iu can ride around all day with my mwd and not burn out... its called skills maxed..

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Originally by: Zeba

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Originally by: OffBeaT

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Edited by: OffBeaT on 26/04/2008 05:59:35

Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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no, not yet.. i am juging this on frigs witch are way mor a treat then bs.

what cap consumption are you joking or somthing. iu can ride around all day with my mwd and not burn out... its called skills maxed..

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You've obviously never flown a nano bs.

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Originally by: CCP Oveur

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The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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Originally by: OffBeaT

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Edited by: OffBeaT on 26/04/2008 05:59:35

Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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what cap consumption are you joking or somthing. iu can ride around all day with my mwd and not burn out... its called skills maxed..

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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You fail to grasp the issue that this thread is about.

Alow me to explain.

MWDs are good and ABs are not good. Should ABs be made better?

Perhaps we might discuss speed mods without some asshat thinking its a nerf Nano thread??

Its hardly a Nano Nerf to ask for ABs to be made better now is it?
It may even be a Nano buff if you suddenly get a new viable Speed mod for you to choose from.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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There is no issue, nothing needs to be changed.

Its like people just want to be able to own everything with nothing that could beat them.

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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There is no issue, nothing needs to be changed.

Its like people just want to be able to own everything with nothing that could beat them.

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So you believe that ABs are a viable mod and you would concider useing one in PvP?

well i think that is almost a constructive addition to the thread.

If only you hadnt added that random comment about owning everyting. At what point did the market come into this disscussion?

Yes i understand that you think that just because everyone has a MWD that everything is fine but i believe that having choice is better.
I would like to be able to pick between an AB and a MWD for my PvP fits.. not just the MWD because ABs are useless.

Are you worried that Abs would somehow make MWDs obsolete?
If so rest asured that that is hardly the aim here.
The aim is to add chioce not remove it.

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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...a subtly concealed nano-whine...

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: ceyriot

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Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s

I think they can catch batteships...

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I never really realized how sad this is. Well how unrealistic. Good thing we are in our pods :).

4282 m/s would be 436.94 Gs.
306 m/s would be 31.22 Gs.

In essence without the pod we'd all be dead :) as the human body cannot withstand G forces that high :). How does our crews survive?

I'm not arguing for slower speeds :), I just had this random thought while peeking in here :)

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Originally by: OffBeaT

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Edited by: OffBeaT on 26/04/2008 05:59:35

Originally by: LittleTerror

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Stop being such fricken noobs and use the tools for the job?

oh boohoo I have to fit a mwd to my frig to catch a mwding BS.. Did you take into account the massive cap consumption or the time it takes for a battleship to reach fullspeed with a MWD and the fact it handles like a brick.

I'm well aware they can fit nanos and inertia stabs etc. But then they can't tank for **** and are basically useless other than to annoy pffft theres always someone whining about how it isn't fair.

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what cap consumption are you joking or somthing. iu can ride around all day with my mwd and not burn out... its called skills maxed..

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Erm yeah I have max cap skills and to not burn out in say an armageddon with 100mn MWD without using a cap injector would take 4 capacitor power relays T2 and 2 cap rechargers T2 according to EFT, which gives 1123 m/s btw. Now that leaves 4 low slots and 0 med slots, so assuming you fly around in something like that, which you must because you never burn out on cap . What else can this fine setup do

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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If they boosted afterburners speed, they would have to do something else drastic with it, such as increased cap use and harder to fit. This was the whole reason they had to put a sig penalty on the mwd and yes at one time they did not have the sig penalty and you could even fit 2 of them. Which really was quite bad since it made small ships very hard to hit and despite it being fun to have that choice of fit I believe there was alot of crying about it.

Yes I do sometimes use afterburners on PVP fits and they can work quite well, they don't have a cap penalty so I can tank more and they make me harder for bigger ships to hit me. They also don't need as much fittings, so that lets me fit bigger guns and still have some extra speed, they are hardly useless.

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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to me it reads more like unfitting the MWD from your ship but i understand that the forums lend themselves to hyperbole.

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I personly am glad that you, (Liang Nuren) who i have seen in the past blindly flameing people who even hint that there is a balance problem with speed fits, agree that there is room for tweeking the gap between MWDs and AB.

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Originally by: Maor Raor

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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If they boosted afterburners speed, they would have to do something else drastic with it, such as increased cap use and harder to fit. This was the whole reason they had to put a sig penalty on the mwd and yes at one time they did not have the sig penalty and you could even fit 2 of them. Which really was quite bad since it made small ships very hard to hit and despite it being fun to have that choice of fit I believe there was alot of crying about it.

Yes I do sometimes use afterburners on PVP fits and they can work quite well, they don't have a cap penalty so I can tank more and they make me harder for bigger ships to hit me. They also don't need as much fittings, so that lets me fit bigger guns and still have some extra speed, they are hardly useless.

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Agreed. if they boosted ABs to be more effective they would have to take a look at the fitting requirements and possably add peneltys to them much like they did with MWDs.

I am suppriesd that you find the small speed boot they give to be that usefull in PvP and im interested to see how widely that view is held.

My only real gripe with ABs vs MWDs is that the gap between the two is so huge.
I believe that there is an arugement to be made that the speed boost ABs have should be moved to somewhat closer to half way as powerfull as MWDs.

I would love for the two to both be a viable way to achieve higher speeds but each having their different quirks, strengths and weeknesses.
Perhaps MWDs being the kings of streightline speed with current peneltys in place and ABs for a ballance between speed manuverbility with some sort of penelty added to some other stats.

I believe there is an arguement to say that there is a need for a mid lvl speed boost so its not just either MWD speeds or base speed.
I feel that currently ABs dont fill this role and realy should.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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But back on topic: Yes, the AB is broken. I'd never fly one in PVP unless I were going into deadspace. Perhaps faction warfare will bring more deadspace into the game as viable PVP locales?

-Liang

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I never really realized how sad this is. Well how unrealistic. Good thing we are in our pods :).

4282 m/s would be 436.94 Gs.
306 m/s would be 31.22 Gs.

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Originally by: Man Bewbs

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Edited by: Man Bewbs on 26/04/2008 08:28:14


silly alt

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: Fyrewyre

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Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?

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No. He's pointing out that almost any ship with a MWD, outruns almost any ship without a MWD. And using frigates compared to battleships to illustrate this.

The OP makes an excellent point.

I'd also like to throw an oar in, that the divergence is also worse than it appears - larger ships have more slots, which exacerbates this particular difference.

Personally, I find MWDs are mandatory PvP mods.

I would rather they weren't.

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Well of course it would, any ship with a MWD would outrun anything without one, so where is the problem?, why would you not fit a MWD if you were able to?, you can always set your speed if you need to, its the blue bar at the bottom......

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Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I never really realized how sad this is. Well how unrealistic. Good thing we are in our pods :).

4282 m/s would be 436.94 Gs.
306 m/s would be 31.22 Gs.

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It is not those numbers that are sad, unfortunately. ^_^ Were you perchance sleeping through every physics/math class?

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Originally by: Tarminic

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What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs?

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Originally by: Mecinia Lua

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Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I never really realized how sad this is. Well how unrealistic. Good thing we are in our pods :).

4282 m/s would be 436.94 Gs.
306 m/s would be 31.22 Gs.

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It is not those numbers that are sad, unfortunately. ^_^ Were you perchance sleeping through every physics/math class?

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Nope :) I wasn't.

With the MWD going most ships reach full speed in less than 10 seconds. So on the high end ships that's still more than enough to crush the bones of every crewmember on the ship.

I showed it for 1 second so you'd divide mine by 1/10th. The burst of acceleration is enough to kill you.

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Originally by: Thargat

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Small ships mostly use MWDs to get in range, speedtank and get out of bubbles.
Medium ships mostly use MWDs to get in range and get out of bubbles.
Large ships mostly use MWDs to get out of bubbles.

Don't fit an MWD and that bubble will make your life VERY difficult.

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Originally by: Mr Nick

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The OP has a valid point, that MWDs are a little bit too much of a necessity to remain competitive in PVP (that does not consist of fighting purely within docking range), although I think the statistics you've chosen do not make the point clearly.

You're still comparing one mid slot speed module with another, and ABs do have their uses over MWDs, though the penalties on the MWD are often acceptable for their increased benefit. MWDs are faster than afterburners, thats their point. You're also missing out a lot of very important factors which determines how competitive the two examples you have given are, namely acceleration, sustainability and agility. These three things combined have a huge impact on how the fight plays out and usually means that a frigate, even moving relatively slower than a MWDing battleship, will have many advantages which make it able to get a tackle at some point.

The MWD as a module should not be removed, however it does need to be balanced with the afterburner to give greater choice. Either a MWD should not give such a powerful speed increase, afterburners should give a more effective speed increase, or some new penalty should be applied to a MWD to give it a more refined purpose. My vote is the third option.

I've always thought that a MWD should give a powerful speed increase but at the cost of manouverability, effectively meaning that if you use a MWD you travel in a straight line very quickly, but have a hard time manouvering. That would keep the MWD useful, but give the AB a purpose in combat which requires manouvering, you could zip around at reasonable speeds, or keep a MWD to disengage when it was required (which is how battleships tend to use their MWD anyway). This would also give scope to balance the stasis web, which is by far the most powerful single module in the game, but necessary at the moment to keep some semblence of balance.

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Originally by: Pilgrippa

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Just tossing an idea out there:

What if fitting an AB made you immune to webs?

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Originally by: soulkiller3

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Am sorry but no matter how fast you are going in SPACE G = 0, and MDW are not unbalanced AF need somthing to make them more usefull

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Originally by: Mose Eisley

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Originally by: soulkiller3

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Am sorry but no matter how fast you are going in SPACE G = 0, and MDW are not unbalanced AF need somthing to make them more usefull

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Off topic: G-force is a result of acceleration and has absolutely nothing to do with gravity (other than using standard earth gravity to describe the amount of acceleration).

I would like to see a bit of a rebalanced between webs, afterburners and MWDs. Maybe lessening the effect of webbers on ships that don't have MWDs equipped or something like that. It would be nice if MWDs and webs were not "must have" PvP mods.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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It will go on forever, nothing will stop the whining for changes for those that can't adapt.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs?

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Originally by: EinaruS

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Whoever said EvE had the most intelligent players of the MMO's, clearly didn't read the forums.

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Imaos

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Originally by: EinaruS

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Whoever said EvE had the most intelligent players of the MMO's, clearly didn't read the forums.

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The ships and modules forum seems to be at an all time low. Especially the lot that is using the OPs arguments to counter the OP.

At the current state I don't see me using an AB anytime soon except in a curiosity fit. You don't need an AB in missions: You get almost ever dropped right onto the next accelerator or can fight the npcs as you close in.

You need an MWD in PvP in almost all occasions where you need a speedmod. If you don't need one. Heck you don't even need the AB.

In short ABs are useless as soon as you can fit an MWD. I'd also like that to be changed so there would be some more variety in fittings.

The great sig penalty: 'Worst' penalty ever: MWDing frigs are fast enough to outrun the effects of the penalty. BS are already big enough without MWD and the only weapon that truly would benefit from it is to slow to catch it if the MWD is used.

It would be nice if there were the option to go AB. All the people here who don't see the need for diversity can still hug their MWD, but I'd like to see ABs not only on comedy kill mails.

My favored change would be less mass penalty for the lighted up AB. Maybe 50% of the current value and it could see more use.

Imaos

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Originally by: Alski

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I think with all the whineage its probably almost inevitable that speed is going to get nerfed in some way at some point in the future, and I don't see it being at all pretty if/when it happens, people get very attached to their playstyles and even a slight reduction to any aspect of it is bound to cause a threadnaught or ten... it would be nice if other things could be boosted to even the field without just hitting everything with the nerfhammer until every ship and fit is an homogenised template of sameness.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Imaos

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Originally by: EinaruS

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Whoever said EvE had the most intelligent players of the MMO's, clearly didn't read the forums.

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The ships and modules forum seems to be at an all time low. Especially the lot that is using the OPs arguments to counter the OP.

At the current state I don't see me using an AB anytime soon except in a curiosity fit. You don't need an AB in missions: You get almost ever dropped right onto the next accelerator or can fight the npcs as you close in.

You need an MWD in PvP in almost all occasions where you need a speedmod. If you don't need one. Heck you don't even need the AB.

In short ABs are useless as soon as you can fit an MWD. I'd also like that to be changed so there would be some more variety in fittings.

The great sig penalty: 'Worst' penalty ever: MWDing frigs are fast enough to outrun the effects of the penalty. BS are already big enough without MWD and the only weapon that truly would benefit from it is to slow to catch it if the MWD is used.

It would be nice if there were the option to go AB. All the people here who don't see the need for diversity can still hug their MWD, but I'd like to see ABs not only on comedy kill mails.

My favored change would be less mass penalty for the lighted up AB. Maybe 50% of the current value and it could see more use.

Imaos

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Erm what? Are you saying all those MWD fitted battleships and BCs with no other speed mods dont exist?

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Quote:

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MWD became mandatory as soon as mass tackling in the form of dictors were introduced.

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Sig penalty means you're roughly as easy to hit with mwd on as without mwd on. This example is best shown in cruiser sized ships, especially nano-hacs.

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto

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Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 27/04/2008 19:56:01
lol @ op!

when trying to catch a BS in a frig you have much bigger problems then speed. Like heavy neuts, smartbombs, warrior II's, or a cyno

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Nathanial Victor

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i think all ships should have a static speed limit of 50m/s and no speed mods. that would make this game fair for everyone.

@ topic

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Nathanial Victor

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i think all ships should have a static speed limit of 50m/s and no speed mods. that would make this game fair for everyone.

@ topic

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: Nathanial Victor

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i think all ships should have a static speed limit of 50m/s and no speed mods. that would make this game fair for everyone.

@ topic

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Reading the thread is always recommended before posting.

No one has suggested, anywhere, ever, that ships need to be the same speed.

The OP suggests that having a MWDing BS faster than a frigate, is silly. And y'know, he's right. The reason MWDs are mandatory on everything, is because if someone else, in any size ship, fits a MWD, you cannot keep up without one yourself.

Ships should have speed variance, but large ships have more tank, and more firepower - so should, therefore, be slower, lest they obselete the smaller ones entirely.

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doesn't change the fact the argument is flawed from the get go. and thus my @ topic

Originally by: Nathanial Victor

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and no, the topic is at root a nerf discussion. as your certainly not suggesting all frigate go faster are you?

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Quote:

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The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).

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Originally by: Terena Darkeen

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Ok I did not fully read to entire 5 page but.

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Quote:

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1) Ofc a battleship will be slower than a frigate and a cruiser and a battle cruiser, they are far more bigger than others. They already have HP advantage and damage advantage, there are only a 4-5 ship that can math dps and salvo damage of a battle ship.

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2) Removing MWD from game or nerfing it kill intercepter class ships totaly. We got a bit better tank than a paper. We spend about 10M + mods ( mostly t2 to survive and tackle ) to a ship that can be killed with a wrecking from a large turret.

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3) I belive this post started by a guy who really ****ed that lost his battle ship cause of tackle from a 200k worth frig with mwd equiped.

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Also cap penalt on MWD is far more lethal in a frig and cruiser than a BS.
MWD eat our cap alive and only left 1 max 2 cycle of rep or shield boost energy if we want to keep point and web on the target to the end.

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Originally by: William DeMeo

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OP needs to fit a microwarpdrive to his interceptors. the rest was tl;dr.

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Originally by: Nathaniel Victor

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and no, the topic is at root a nerf discussion. as your certainly not suggesting all frigate go faster are you? no, then we are discussing either lowering battleship base speed and/or the mwd bonuses, which is total rubbish.

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you want an ab ship to catch a mwd ship? get a tackler WITH A MICRO WARP DRIVE to go catch him. simple as that. i dont think i read anywhere that an afterburner frigate should be able to catch a microwarp battleship in eve.

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i'm sick of ppl looking for reasons to adjust ships that work just fine as they are.

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well to be fair, you kind of are suggesting that. but that too is scrap as no ship should go too fast w/ an ab w/o the drawbacks that mwd's introduce

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Lady Frostmourn

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There is nothing wrong with MWDs. Stop complaining about them... Geez. Oh no, a ship with a MWD has an advantage over a ship with an AB. Well Duh... It's supposed to. Why would you bother training it if it didn't?

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What's next, people complaining about how T2 ships/guns/fittings are too powerful compared to their T1 versions?

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Originally by: Ralara

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So what if a frigate with AB can't catch a BS with a MWD? Since no one fits ABs, then who cares? People fit MWDs on frigates.

Slow ABing ships in PvP would be a problem if anyone used them. No body uses them, so it's not a problem

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Originally by: Sirius Problem

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Even this idea of boosting an AB to make it a PvP option is idiotic. Nobody currently using a MWD is going to step down to an AB. There is no point. You're still taking up a mid-slot with a "less powerful" option.

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Going one step further and removing MWDs entirely changes nothing, because MWDs and ABs offer a percentage boost to base speed. So now the frig with no AB can't catch the BS that has one fitted -- New thread to nerf ABs.

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Raekone

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They should reduce the speed bonus of MWD's to that of afterburners, or maybe even slower, and then remove afterburners from the game. What you have is an option to by heavy penalty increase your ship's speed a little - it should hurt as much as fitting WCS's hurts your combat, basically you don't do it unless you REALLY need to for some reason. Like for traveling or recon missions, not for general lol easyness.

If you want to go faster, choose a fast ship, fine, but making your battleship go as fast as frigate, even a frigate without AB or MWD - is just plain /laff

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).

Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Merdaneth

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This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).

Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

Frig Speed with AB II
Crucifier - 689 m/s
Executioner - 1310 m/s
Inquisitor - 765 m/s
Punisher - 723 m/s
Crusader - 1498 m/s
Malediction - 1461 m/s

Battleships with MWD II
Armageddon - 1163 m/s
Typhoon - 1477 m/s
Tempest - 1385 m/s
Megathron - 1213 m/s
Raven - 1070 m/s

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I've said it once, I'll say it again. ABs need a flat out boost to their speed bonus. 150% for T1 to 180% for T2 seem like fine numbers together with halving the weight penality to half of what it is (500K to 250K), they'd make AB-ing frigs overtake MWD-ing BS which really really should be the case.

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Originally by: Sirius Problem

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Edited by: Sirius Problem on 28/04/2008 13:35:55
Let's play devil's advocate for a minute and imagine that changes are put in place so that an AB fitted frig can now easily catch a MWD BS. Now what? Just who is going to fly these frigs? New, unskilled players, that's who.

If you were putting together a gang, would you ask any of your even modestly skilled pilots to "step down" into an AB fitted frig just so that they might be able to catch a MWD BS? I would rather let them fly what they've trained for -- Better, faster, higher DPS, and certainly more useful ships that can already catch a MWD BS.

Honestly, I think what's being proposed is a solution in search of a problem. The stats may show some disparity on paper, but in PvP combat scenarios, it just doesn't exist.

ABs are great for deadspace. Buff them if you want. It will make pirates that hunt mission runners happy for sure.

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske

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Mutual Incomprehension is one of the Four Horsemen of most internet arguments, I guess, along with Unfettered Hostility, Overwhelming Vagueness, and Lack of Evidence.

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Originally by: Imaos

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Back to the first part of your post. You just stated again that ABs need a role to be used. Welcome to the thread .

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The problem is that at the moment as soon as you can fit an MWD there is no need to ever use an AB again.

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Originally by: Kusha'an

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Originally by: Alski

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I think with all the whineage its probably almost inevitable that speed is going to get nerfed in some way at some point in the future, and I don't see it being at all pretty if/when it happens, people get very attached to their playstyles and even a slight reduction to any aspect of it is bound to cause a threadnaught or ten... it would be nice if other things could be boosted to even the field without just hitting everything with the nerfhammer until every ship and fit is an homogenised template of sameness.

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THIS.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Speed is fine, the nano "age" has replaced the frig age, the BS age etc for roaming, but that is all, for small gang and fast roaming PVP, recons and hac's are the most effective, but thats not in all situations...

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Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor

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Fail troll is fail. He just wants to create "Every ship flies the same no matter the fittings: Online." If you nerf MWDs, then everyone will just fit ABs and then you'll see whine posts about how ABs are mandatory for PVP and MWDs need a buff.

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"Every ship flies the same no matter the fittings: Online."

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Originally by: NoNah

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My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Originally by: Merdaneth

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This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).

Frig Base Speeds
Crucifier - 306 m/s
Executioner - 488 m/s
Inquisitor - 338 m/s
Punisher - 313 m/s
Crusader - 569 m/s
Malediction - 569 m/s

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Originally by: *****zilla

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The problem is that nanos haven't just added to, they've completely taken over pvp. Nanos aren't just for small gang pvp. They're for most anything (except low sec and pos shooting).

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Originally by: *****zilla

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Nanos were supposed to be used for the skirmish role. What we're seeing is they're being preferred over the use of battleships for fleets. The only practical limitation of nano fleets is when they grow large enough to cause lag to endanger themselves.

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Originally by: *****zilla

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Its not unheard of to see nano gangs 40-50ppl strong. Your own killboard shows the use of large nano gangs backed by caps. Nanos have taken over.

And the best thing to counter a nano fleet? An even larger nano fleet. For the most part there isn't any reason to fly anything except nanos.

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Originally by: Kimater

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Ive not read the whole post so not sure if this has been said but if you nerf mwds then you nerf all gallente blaster ships which all in all will make them fairly pointless.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Raekone

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They should reduce the speed bonus of MWD's to that of afterburners, or maybe even slower, and then remove afterburners from the game. What you have is an option to by heavy penalty increase your ship's speed a little - it should hurt as much as fitting WCS's hurts your combat, basically you don't do it unless you REALLY need to for some reason. Like for traveling or recon missions, not for general lol easyness.

If you want to go faster, choose a fast ship, fine, but making your battleship go as fast as frigate, even a frigate without AB or MWD - is just plain /laff

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So basically you want to make all frigates and cruisers(bar recons/hics) obsolete?

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Originally by: Kusha'an

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Originally by: Alski

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I think with all the whineage its probably almost inevitable that speed is going to get nerfed in some way at some point in the future, and I don't see it being at all pretty if/when it happens, people get very attached to their playstyles and even a slight reduction to any aspect of it is bound to cause a threadnaught or ten... it would be nice if other things could be boosted to even the field without just hitting everything with the nerfhammer until every ship and fit is an homogenised template of sameness.

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THIS.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Snipers fullfil roles besides POS shooting,

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Speed fits, RR BS's are designed to allow small groups of pilots to engage larger groups and when run effectively can at least engage 2 to 3 times the number of pilots when the smaller fleet is well organized and highly skilled/trained.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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What you are seeing now is the larger blob alliances which have always relied on numbers for protection are using the same ships as the majority of their members reach appropriate skill times.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Can you move a battleship around as quick as a cruiser, regardless of mwd/ab whatever? no, if being quick is what you need, nanohac

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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if you can get snipers in to a system and cover their warp in /warp out, use them. none of the things you discuss are actual mechanics issues

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Originally by: Imaos

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Originally by: Lady Frostmourn

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There is nothing wrong with MWDs. Stop complaining about them... Geez. Oh no, a ship with a MWD has an advantage over a ship with an AB. Well Duh... It's supposed to. Why would you bother training it if it didn't?

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Would you bother to train for an AB if it wasnt prereq for MWD? No you wouldnt. That is the point.

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What's next, people complaining about how T2 ships/guns/fittings are too powerful compared to their T1 versions?

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T2 ships are different/specialized. They can be stronger in combat or the fill a specific role and everyone whines that they don't like the role (EOS, marauders,..).

Imaos

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Everyone fits MWD for PvP. They are regarded as absolutely necessary FOR COMBAT. I think they were meant to be used in emergency situations but people fit them for every kind of PvP combat because the advatanges so greatly outweigh the disadvantages.
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Originally by: Ulstan

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But absolutely no one fits an AB, despite the need to 'go faster' because AB speed boosts are so paltry.

We need to make MWDs much less attractive to fit and AB's much more so, so that it's not an obvious no brainer choice to go with MWD instead of AB.
Then we need to work on webs
The whole thing just so badly needs a good overhaul

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Originally by: *****zilla

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*cry* long response...wiped by silly forum software...*cry*

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Edited by: Ulstan on 29/04/2008 15:58:59
Edited by: Ulstan on 29/04/2008 15:12:27
I agree that the biggest problem in EVE right now is the completely whacked propulsion system.

Everyone fits MWD for PvP. They are regarded as absolutely necessary FOR COMBAT. I think they were meant to be used in emergency situations but people fit them for every kind of PvP combat because the advatanges so greatly outweigh the disadvantages.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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5 nanoships has zero chance against a 5 shortrange BS gang.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Any decent nanogang FC will RUN when they are outnumbered 2 to 3 times against a decent opponent.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Could you give me examples who actually uses nanoships over BSes for alliance ops? Battleships >>> nanoships in almost every fight

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Originally by: Sirius Problem

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ABs are great for deadspace. Buff them if you want. It will make pirates that hunt mission runners happy for sure.

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Originally by: *****zilla

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Things aren't static.

If the BS are defensive the nanos will zip around, gank anyone outside of bs range, and leave at will. The bs gang wasn't effective.

If offensive the nanos will try to dictor the bs, or catch one warping. Slow them down and call in reinforcements. The bs gang is much more likely to wipe. They have to be very careful with every move and watch out for a cyno to open on top of them.

For pos fights battleships are preferred but nanos are used 99% of the time while waiting. Most pos "fights" are waiting so nanos are the thing. Add fighters for dps.

For alliance ops with hostile titans on the field nanos are preferred (Bob was big on this one).

For roaming alliance ops nanos are preferred (pick).

For defensive alliance ops nanos are preferred (pick).

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Nanoships just can't orbit around BSes with ease, they will get hit enough and/or don't have cap (due to neuts) and BSes can cyno in capitals just as easily.

Nanogangs don't just "hang around", and they certainly will not engage against 1:3 odds.

Waiting is not fighting?

Roaming alliance ops are very rare. 40+ nanogangs are only there if they have specific targets, the usual nanogang is a lot smaller and are generally not the mandatory alliance level ops(neither are defense gangs)

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Everyone fits MWD for PvP. They are regarded as absolutely necessary FOR COMBAT. I think they were meant to be used in emergency situations but people fit them for every kind of PvP combat because the advatanges so greatly outweigh the disadvantages.
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you are correct, absolutely necessary but then you drift off into RP mode and deciede that they are for emergency situations, where is the fire chief? i dont see an emergency, you give up a precious mid slot, some ships this inherently gimps both PG/Cap/mid slot. for BS's none of them travel faster than frigates.

Originally by: Ulstan

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But absolutely no one fits an AB, despite the need to 'go faster' because AB speed boosts are so paltry.

We need to make MWDs much less attractive to fit and AB's much more so, so that it's not an obvious no brainer choice to go with MWD instead of AB.
Then we need to work on webs
The whole thing just so badly needs a good overhaul

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ABs are for plex's. And this is where i disagree with everyone that wants a change for 2 reasons.

1. Speed is fine, there are solid tactics, engaging gameplay and persuasive options on 1/3 of combat, the other 2/3 are RR and sniper.
2. The PVP eve community has taken what was given to them by the dev's and used it to develop tactics and play styles. The microwarpdrive has secured its role and thru "natural selection" succeded in avoiding extinction unlike the useless afterburner, relegated to missioning only. This was player decieded.

My problem is with the concept that anything not ôworkingö needs to be buffered or things need to be nerfed to accomadate (this exludes BO's which were announced as pre-nerfed)needs to be changed. The MWD is used because it is battle tested and player approved. The DevÆs need to understand that and stop trying to rececitate useless mods by introducing huge overhauls to game mechanics.

Most people will counter with ôbut what about double MWD ravens, torp carrying kestrals, blah blah blahö And I say those changes were small, definitive and during a time when the game was less complicated. With each new ship class, with each new addition and upgrade, some things have the potential to become obsolete, but unlike in the old days 2003-2005, there was less to affect. Now even slight changes to webs, would have profound and uncontrollable changes. A reshuffling of the deck, so to speak. Which is exactly what the new players and nanowhiners want to hear.

But the problem with this is that the players have already spoken, a natural selection of ships/mods/tactics has already occurred and instead of allowing the DevÆs to focus on glaring problems, they have to possibly deliver complex changes because people just donÆt want to learn, when to nano and when to not, how to fight speed fits and when to just walk away from a battle.

A reshuffling of the deck will only sediment the players for a short time and then new tactics will emerge and the whining will continue again. With each shuffle the game inherently becomes more unstable and exploitable

ItÆs a 2 way street, the devÆs need to come to grips that sometimes their hard work will go the way of the CRT, and not everything should be resurrected ala Frankenstein to justify previous programming endevours. The current player base needs to learn, learn the current tactics, wait for new content and engage without EFT and station twirling backing up their statements

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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MWD became mandatory as soon as mass tackling in the form of dictors were introduced.

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Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor

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Fail troll is fail. He just wants to create "Every ship flies the same no matter the fittings: Online." If you nerf MWDs, then everyone will just fit ABs and then you'll see whine posts about how ABs are mandatory for PVP and MWDs need a buff.

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