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Petition to change Logserver / ban BACON.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:56:00 - [61] Originally by: NightmareX But the EULA there still say something that makes BACON against the rules. The first rule i see it break, is about the 3rd party apps. The users of BACON say that it doesn't have any communication with the EVE server, so it's allowed. That might be true. But they don't seem to get the point. NO 3rd party apps that gets ANY information of what's happening ingame shouldn't be allowed in any ways. Whatever the reason is. Following that reasoning, the eve-data dump and it's usage in various 3rd party applications ( starting with Excel ), would be a violation of the EULA also. Data is provided by CCP, as is the logserver data, but not directly from the EVE client. My conclusion, failed/flawed logic on this point. Originally by: NightmareX The second rule i see it break is about advantage over other players. Yes, BACON takes an advantage over me for example, because i don't use BACON, and will never do. And as far as i know, the reason why UI modification is not allowed in EVE, is because you can easily make add-ons to EVE then that takes an advantage over other players. So that's why that's forbidden. And it will stay like that forever. Once again, you fail at reasoning here. Why ? EVE-Online was not designed or coded to have a third party extensible framework ( aka UI mods etc ). You also cannot say that it will never be possible, since you plainly do not know. Originally by: NightmareX BACON takes an advantage over other players because it makes a sound when some hostiles or whatever enters local and then does the job for you so you don't have to check local when some hostiles or whatever jumps in. While i have to manually check the local all the time, and play like other loyal players are doing. Tru dat, currently thou, you could download BACON and use it. Until it is declared a violation of EULA/ToS you are free to use it. NOT using it is your problem and you cannot complain about others using it. Only thing we can do is complain to CCP and help them to see the light or a solution to it. Originally by: NightmareX BUT.., BACON is not the worst thing here, but that's not the point, the real problem here is that BACON might be a start on something that can be a REALLY REALLY big nightmare / problem for CCP soonÖ if they don't fix the Logserver or at least ban all types of 3rd party applications like BACON. I mentioned that a few days ago. Welcome to realizing that the floodgates have opened.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:58:00 - [62] Originally by: Speaker Dead Ok, so lets say CCP manages to kill Bacon, then adds a skill called autoscanning that does the same thing....are your feelings still hurt? Can everyone have your stuff? If this were a more lifelike game, your ship would automatically warn you when anyone comes in system, without having to have your eyes glued to a local chan. Lets face it, not everyone wants to play the game your way.... My name is Orrmick Bomama, and I approved this message. That really is the most stupid argument ever. Guess what: not everyone wants to play the game YOUR way either - no kidding. GM Grimmi stated that CCP disapproves of BACON and all similar programs, and they're working on changing the way the logserver works so that it will be rendered inoperable. Eat it.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:59:00 - [63] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:03:49 Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 04/05/2008 19:55:33 So Nightmare X what part of GM Grimmi's post about CCP not liking BACON and are in the process of changing the client to nullify its use didn't you understand? I understand that a GM have said it already, but that doesn't make sense, because i have seen so many times that a GM have said something, and then later a Dev is telling something totally different that the GM are saying. It's not always that the GM's are 100% right about things. That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. I'm beeing an attention *****? LOL, not actually, i'm only trying to proove that BACON and eventually programs like that in the future will most likely kill EVE slowly but surely. But meh, i'll guess EVERY carebear would love to sit in a game with 475467467 add-ons (specually the BACON cheaters) that have made most part of the PVP playerbase to leave EVE, then you can sit in another WoW simulator and suck on your roids. What's fun in that?
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:00:00 - [64] Originally by: NightmareX I don't care if this topic gets locked or whatever. All i care about is that CCP see that WE DON'T ACCEPT 3RD PARTY APPS TO BE USED WITH EVE ONLINE. And by that i mean to get info about other REAL players when they are entering local live. No matter how you are looking at it, it's cheat and it's taking and advantage over other players in EVE. And that's bad for EVE. "You" doesn't equal "we", "we" implies "everyone". Unfortunately, while CCP frown at applications which use the client side files generated by applications like the Logserver, it's not a breach of the EULA as per their words. Ergo no cheating. We may think it IS cheating, but well, we don't define eve, that is what CCP does. As long as it doesn't breach the EULA it's no cheating. There's tools around which are far worse tbh. Yet as those make people money to spend on ships to pew pew with nobody has even dared to let those come into the light. Frankly speaking anyone silly enough to rely on Bacon functionality isn't going to cut it in EVE either way for the long run. Give it a rest. CCP see the big picture, they will get on top of it, nothing you say or do is going to force kneejerking.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:00:00 - [65] Originally by: NightmareX That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Go to iceland, camp the station. Err, office.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:03:00 - [66] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 04/05/2008 19:55:33 So Nightmare X what part of GM Grimmi's post about CCP not liking BACON and are in the process of changing the client to nullify its use didn't you understand? I understand that a GM have said it already, but that doesn't make sense, because i have seen so many times that a GM have said something, and then later a Dev is telling something totally different that the GM are saying. It's not always that the GM's are 100% right about things. That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Ahh ok. Sending a polite well worded e-mail with your concerns to the Dev in question might get a better result though.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Havohej GM Grimmi stated that CCP disapproves of BACON and all similar programs, and they're working on changing the way the logserver works so that it will be rendered inoperable. Thing is, that's only going to result in a race between the bullet and the armour. Files on someone's private PC as a concept results into a flailing theoretical legal debate drama on what you can do with those, as there is no policy framework on the use of the concept. In other words, say the Logserver generates hashed logfiles. Honestly think the very people who over the years have made such tools are not going to find a way around that? And without a formal policy, nothing can even be said about that :/ Not these Bacon guys btw, they put it in the open, that is much more then can be said of the folks who made other and similar tools over the years. CCP will get their head around this. It's not a simple picture, but EVE is complex and CCP deal with that complexity quite well. This is no different.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:04:00 - [68] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: NightmareX That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Go to iceland, camp the station. Err, office. LOL.
Aaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhh	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:05:00 - [69] the **** taking I would get from my corp mates for being in a MuppetmareX thread is enough .. but you were always a low sec bottom feeder, and anything that may possibly help the other denizens of low sec was bound to have you whinging in multiple threads ...
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:05:00 - [70] Originally by: Zeba Ahh ok. Sending a polite well worded e-mail with your concerns to the Dev in question might get a better result though. He'd be better off bribing or blackmailing CSM reps :P

Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:09:00 - [71] Originally by: NightmareX That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloak when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???. Wrong ... Currently, BACON does not interfere in any form with the client ... once you add something that does CTRL+Q or anything in/to the client you automatically are in violation of the ToS/EULA. Big difference there. Argument, failed. Originally by: NightmareX By allowing this app, CCP will then let stuffs like this happens. Things like this might already be happening, but even when that's happening it shouldn't continue. It should STOP right NOW before it's to late. Superfly, n other threads and topics about it. Originally by: NightmareX You might think i'm very desperat now when making this topic, but i'm not, i'm making this topic because i want to continue to play EVE for many many more years, and that without 3rd party apps that will slowly kill EVE. Maybe you do not want to appear but you do look very desperate. Once you have had a GM and a Dev in the thread, trust me, things are being done/examined/looked at. Originally by: NightmareX I have been playing EVE Online for over 4 years now, and i'm sure CCP will still love to have me here. But then CCP have to listen to us to. Not so much anymore, aquiring a well known IP ( WoD ) they will have a way bigger audience for their technology. For all CCP cares, once WoD launches they could close down EVE-Online, which we beta tested until they use the same tech in WoD, without having to worry about income and their future. Trust me, they once had to listen to get the game going, smoothly and all that. Now ... CCP has two solid sources of income. One of them can be turned off without problems. Originally by: NightmareX This topic is only to hope that CCP will make EVE Online a better game, and to hope that CCP will listen to us loyal players on what's good for EVE and that. Not gonna happen. Originally by: NightmareX So by this topic i want EVERYONE that support and those who are signing this topic to write CCP a petition on WHY you want them to change the Logserver or at least ban apps like BACON. *****s, leave the petition system alone. Originally by:** NightmareX A petition always helps, so the more who write CCP a petition about this, the more the chance it will be that they are doing something to get this changed. It does not help with what you WANT to have. It helps only with something you are thinking you are entitled to have or with game related problems, ego-bolstering "Because of me ..." not included. FC
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:10:00 - [72] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. Well maybe the petition thing is not the best idea, but at least give CCP a reason why you want a cheat free game, or at least support it by trying to get rid of more programs like this.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:12:00 - [73] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Zeba Ahh ok. Sending a polite well worded e-mail with your concerns to the Dev in question might get a better result though. He'd be better off bribing or blackmailing CSM reps :P Given the current selection of candidates I'd say blackmail would be the moar effective of the two.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:13:00 - [74] Originally by: NightmareX I understand that a GM have said it already, but that doesn't make sense, because i have seen so many times that a GM have said something, and then later a Dev is telling something totally different that the GM are saying. It's not always that the GM's are 100% right about things. That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Reference links regarding GM's posting incorrect information on forums please.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:14:00 - [75] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:11:32 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. I do understand them, but I fail to find logic and/or sense behind most of them.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:16:00 - [76] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:16:55 And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. But sadly, it might happen if things like BACON doesn't get stopped. like i said earlier, please stop it before it's to late.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:17:00 - [77] Originally by: NightmareX And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. So basically, now you are trying to justify your attempt at dev attention seeking by posting the same thing over and over again just reworded. Nice.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:18:00 - [78] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:24:59 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Originally by: NightmareX And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. So basically, now you are trying to justify your attempt at dev attention seeking by posting the same thing over and over again just reworded. Nice. Ehh no, i'm just saying it to someone that might not have understanded it so far in the topic. And yeah, FYI, please keep the topic on topic to please. It have been mostly on topic so far, and it's good.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:27:00 - [79] Edited by: Franco Caruso on 04/05/2008 20:29:28 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. Well maybe the petition thing is not the best idea, but at least give CCP a reason why you want a cheat free game, or at least support it by trying to get rid of more programs like this. NightmareX, please read this post http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=761629&page=3#72 carefully.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:31:00 - [80] Originally by: Franco Caruso Edited by: Franco Caruso on 04/05/2008 20:28:46 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. Well maybe the petition thing is not the best idea, but at least give CCP a reason why you want a cheat free game, or at least support it by trying to get rid of more programs like this. Please read this post http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=761629&page=3#72 carefully. You know what?, i totally agree with that. The only positive i can see in BACON is that it forces CCP to change the Logserver (IF they do), and then makes the game more secure to such programs like BACON in the future.

Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:34:00 - [81] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:16:55 And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. But sadly, it might happen if things like BACON doesn't get stopped. like i said earlier, please stop it before it's to late. Darn it, it simply cannot happen ! Apart mining a mission macros there is absolute, frecking no way to create add-ons like there are in WoW for EVE-Online. It's lacking the framework. Before you paint the future as black as you do and try to raise a panic, facts ... then fiction. FC
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:56:00 - [82] I support the petition to get BACON banned. This is as good as macroing. Even though people may find loopholes that make it "technically" valid, it doesn't change the intent and action of the program. Why are macroers not allowed? Because they automate certain actions. CCP doesn't want it's game to be played by automated actions, CCP wants players to be actively at the controls. This does the same. Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... read my sig), the program automates that action for them. Therefore, this is a macro. A 3rd party macro application giving an unfair advantage to the user. Get it banned ASAP!
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:04:00 - [83] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Franco Caruso stuff & link You know what?, i totally agree with that. Alright, that's settled then, off you two go to another thread, go make babies.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:06:00 - [84] Originally by: hydraSlav I support the petition to get BACON banned. This is as good as macroing. Even though people may find loopholes that make it "technically" valid, it doesn't change the intent and action of the program. Why are macroers not allowed? Because they automate certain actions. CCP doesn't want it's game to be played by automated actions, CCP wants players to be actively at the controls. This does the same. Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... read my sig), the program automates that action for them. Therefore, this is a macro. A 3rd party macro application giving an unfair advantage to the user. Get it banned ASAP! Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:14:00 - [85] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: hydraSlav ... Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it. You're perfect for each other... Both of you want to tell CCP what is and isn't right in their universe.
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:30:00 - [86] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: hydraSlav ... Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it. You're perfect for each other... Both of you want to tell CCP what is and isn't right in their universe. Actually they do have you beat there. Using a 3rd party application to gain an advantage by reading the log server is cheating. Read the ToS or EULA or what ever other thing you can find. CCP has even said themselves that they don't like players abusing the log server, yet you continue to advertise your programs. You even made claims that you have plans for even more involved programs than BACON that access the API. Here's a thought, instead of telling people to play the game the way CCP made it, why don't you try that first instead of using 3rd party apps to gain an advantage?
Genghis Kitty Hello Kitty Online Adventurers	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:56:00 - [87] Umm, didn't they already say they were going to change the way the log server works once all this hit the fan?
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:05:00 - [88] I do find all these bacon thread a bit over the top all the legal expert reading the EULA and explaining to CCP how something is against there EULA after they said it isnt. I also like the broad sweaping statments on what is and isnt cheating and what is an expliot. I dont use Bacon and I figure CCP will make what ever change they feel is appropriateto fix what they think the problem is, but in the mean time if people want to use it all the more power to them. If you want to start a crusade why dont you find what other application the big name allinaces are using and rally against then vs the one application that was released to the public. Maybe it because you dont want to rock the boat in your own alliance or something who knows.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:15:00 - [89] Ok ok, calm down a bit here. I was just talking with a dev on mIRC here, and after what he said, we have good news. [23:20] <Atropos\|other> the logserver is now being used in ways that were never intended, and we'll deal with this recent sea change [23:22] <Atropos\|other> the logserver was meant for _us_ to gather data to help _us_ fix problems [23:23] <Atropos\|other> not to give players aningame advantage [23:25] <Atropos\|other> theres been a lot of internal talk about the use and abuse of the logserver [23:25] <Atropos\|other> and none of us like the way it's being used [23:41] <Atropos\|other> there are plans afoot about the logserver [23:41] <Atropos\|other> but, you'll understand if i don't give you any specifics So by this, it's confirmed by a Dev that they ACTUALLY are gonna change the logserver. Was all i wanted to get confirmed by a Dev. And the dev even said it was beeing an ingame advantage by using the BACON the way it's beeing used now. So the question is then, why are you guys still contimue to defend BACON?, it's clearly that CCP don't like it and are changing the logserver. If CCP had allowed BACON to be used like now, they wouldn't start to change the Logserver right?
ColwirthMB Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:18:00 - [90] Nightmare will have my babies. That is all. Oh, and /signed



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