EVE Search - Petition to change Logserver / ban BACON.

Check My IP Information

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Petition to change Logserver / ban BACON.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:21:00 - [91] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Dario Wall You even made claims that you have plans for even more involved programs than BACON that access the API. Again, well crafted logic. By using the Application Programming Interface that CCP supplies, we are taking unfair advantage. Our crime is that we can code and you can't. I like how you just insult people that are against your little toy, instead of trying to prove why it is legit. Face the facts. You are using a 3rd party app to gain an advantage. Now CCP is working to nullify it. You lose.

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:30:00 - [92] What I've said, is basically a restatement of what Lead GM Grimmi said in his initial post. BACON is making use of the Logserver in a way that was never intended. Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that we're particularly pleased with. As Lead GM Grimmi said "we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this". The Logserver was meant to help solve bugs, not give anyone a viable or quantifiable ingame advantage. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. I'd love to say that EVE should be all that we need, but as has happened in the past, as players find external third party tools that they deem invaluble, such as TeamSpeak and Ventrillo, we deal with them in kind, as with EVE Voice. Each is dealt with based on the merits of the case, at the time. BACON and any similar tools will be dealt with as we see fit, in a manner we hope will resolve the situation satisfactorily. This should close the matter, I hope, but if you wish to continue constructive discussion on the matter I'll be keeping my eye on this. Additionally, please stop making all these silly little threads on the same topic. It's a waste of everyone's time when they can be consolidated into one main thread.

Legowan Wealson Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:33:00 - [93] Honestly, for anyone who stay honest to themselves, it should be quite obvious that what BACON does is not intended use of the logserver. That information is available so we can submit detailed debugging data to CCP and help improve the game, not so we can read the game state in any way. It's also against the spirit of EVE, even if it doesn't necessarily do something that confers a massive advantage to it's user. Though it's only a small step away from more serious macroing and cheating... Regarding the TOS, it badly needs to be rewritten. Right now you can interpret it as forbidding the use and development of tools like EVEMon and EFT (not exactly sure if that's what they meant by "tools for the game" when it was written, but you could conceive it meaning that), which clearly is not the actual policy. I have great sympathy for how CCP avoided this subject until the public release of BACON, since the use of such tools is not currently detectable and thus it's not possible to actually catch the people using them, but now that the cat is out of the bag I think stronger condemnation of it (on principle) is in order. Looking forward to those technical countermeasures being released :) (Yeah, far from all Hydra members use or approve of this app... Thank you for tarnishing our already slightly onerous reputation Gunfleet!)
ColwirthMB Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:34:00 - [94] Originally by: Legowan Wealson Honestly, for anyone who stay honest to themselves, it should be quite obvious that what BACON does is not intended use of the logserver. That information is available so we can submit detailed debugging data to CCP and help improve the game, not so we can read the game state in any way. It's also against the spirit of EVE, even if it doesn't necessarily do something that confers a massive advantage to it's user. Though it's only a small step away from more serious macroing and cheating... Regarding the TOS, it badly needs to be rewritten. Right now you can interpret it as forbidding the use and development of tools like EVEMon and EFT (not exactly sure if that's what they meant by "tools for the game" when it was written, but you could conceive it meaning that), which clearly is not the actual policy. I have great sympathy for how CCP avoided this subject until the public release of BACON, since the use of such tools is not currently detectable and thus it's not possible to actually catch the people using them, but now that the cat is out of the bag I think stronger condemnation of it (on principle) is in order. Looking forward to those technical countermeasures being released :) (Yeah, far from all Hydra members use or approve of this app... Thank you for tarnishing our already slightly onerous reputation Gunfleet!) I'm Coming in HOTT!
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:34:00 - [95] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 22:35:36 Thank you very much Atropos, was all i wanted to get here, a Dev reply telling exactly that.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:37:00 - [96] In fairness, people tend to lock these threads so that keeping them consolidated (or not) isn't entirely up to the player community. But yeah, this topic particularly did get at least 4 threads open at once at one point that I saw. Anyway, as you said you'd continue watching for constructive contributions on the subject, I have little to offer other than: "I hope that CCP does not decide to add an audible signal to the Local channel; anything that promotes 'afk-play' or effectively negates the risk that a player puts their assets at without them having to actually be alert is not a good addition to the game and that's just what BACON and any similar program is designed to do - play a very important part of the game for you." Thank you for your time.
Legowan Wealson Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:39:00 - [97] Edited by: Legowan Wealson on 04/05/2008 22:42:53 Originally by: ColwirthMB Edited by: ColwirthMB on 04/05/2008 22:36:44 I'm Coming in HOTT! And wheres my Carbonized Lead XL for the Sniping Dread:< I wasn't on that night, drones were clogging the logon duct... Oh, and I only fit stuff that drops off the rats on my capitals, so wouldn't know about that ammo ;) Btw, just for the record, my post above was a /signed (and I wrote it without having seen Atropos's post, hence it's reiterating some things he said more or less)
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:52:00 - [98] All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:53:00 - [99] Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent
Miki Fin Gallente Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:57:00 - [100] Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. I'm surprised that you find it disturbing tbh. Hasn't past experience taught CCP never to underestimate what Eve players will do for victory?


CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:59:00 - [101] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play?

Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:04:00 - [102] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent Voice was put in because not everyone had access to host Ventrilo or Teamspeak servers. How ever, with Voice built in the game it enables those people to have a voice server to use for free to be on an even level with others. CCP won't enable a feature such as BACON's due to it being used to promote AFK playstyles, which they do not want. It was also already been shown that such a feature would make the use of macros simpler to implement, which CCP does not want.
Excesse Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:04:00 - [103] I support the arguments laid out by NightmareX and hope that BACON and programs like it are outlawed sooner rather than later. I believe that CCP's current stance towards BACON sets a very dangerous precedent and that the software gives an unfair advantage to players who use it.
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:05:00 - [104] Originally by: CCP Atropos the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. You (CCP) made a game with a quite big death penalty, did you expect players wouldn't try to avoid it by any mean necessary? BACON, blobing, nano ship, etc are all different aspects of a same problem: how to avoid the death penalty? Really, you shouldn't be disturbed at all, actually you should have expected it for a while.
Syn Exec Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:15:00 - [105] Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Hail our saviors! Down with BACON!
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:23:00 - [106] Edited by: NightF0x on 04/05/2008 23:24:56 Edited by: NightF0x on 04/05/2008 23:23:22 Originally by: CCP Atropos Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play? I don't want to be critical here but if CCP really does want to keep people from using such programs then why hasn't there been a client update to disable (or delay) writing to the log file? A simple 10 second delay would be enough to turn most users off from using it. It could be a temporary fix until something more permanent is released. The lack of updates to discourage the usage is why most people feel that CCP doesn't care to patch this obvious security hole. Edit: Personally I expected a patch the following day after their big 'we frown on the usage' post. I'm saddened along with a vast majority of players that nothing has been done to keep gameplay on a level playing field.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:47:00 - [107] Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
Lo3d3R MAFIA	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:49:00 - [108] I endorse this product and or service from NightmareX
Forum Joe	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:09:00 - [109] Wonderfull ! Quick ! NOTEPAD ! So : Let's write the names of the self declared C-H-E-A-T-E-R-S As such, we now have a list of corps and alliance who ALLOW THEIR MEMBERS TO CHEAT. What a nice day :)
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:11:00 - [110] Originally by: CCP Atropos That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play? <3<3<3

Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:20:00 - [111] Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? Bump for answers to my questions. I don't feel comfortable being labeled as villains when we went out of our way to work with CCP in an open, transparent, and accountable fashion.
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:29:00 - [112] Edited by: Cori4n on 05/05/2008 00:30:22 Originally by: CCP Atropos I'd love to say that EVE should be all that we need, but as has happened in the past, as players find external third party tools that they deem invaluble, such as TeamSpeak and Ventrillo, we deal with them in kind, as with EVE Voice. Each is dealt with based on the merits of the case, at the time. BACON and any similar tools will be dealt with as we see fit, in a manner we hope will resolve the situation satisfactorily. This should close the matter, I hope, but if you wish to continue constructive discussion on the matter I'll be keeping my eye on this. Oh, come on, you're deluding yourself here. Ventrilo and TS were around far before the advent of EVE Voice, and still are more common than it for the obvious reason. EVEMon and EFT haven't been dealt with at all. Not that I'd mind if there was an EFT built into EVE ;) Anyway, don't forget that players can make very cool things when given the tools... even when given very limited tools. I for one would have gone to any length with the logserver to make cool stuff, it's barely even about the edge :P So I say... End the lagfest that is BACON! We need a client side API! --
Eronysis Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:03:00 - [113] Originally by: CCP Atropos Additionally, please stop making all these silly little threads on the same topic. It's a waste of everyone's time when they can be consolidated into one main thread. One main thread..which has been locked/closed removed over 3 times now...
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:10:00 - [114] Originally by: CCP Atropos but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. You can't be serious. You guys make one of the harshest PvP MMOs in existence whose whole base is on greifing, scamming, robbing, and otherwise ruining your opponent's day. Furthermore throughout the history of this game players have routinely been rewarded with victory for metagaming, hacking, and using every obvious cheat they can find and beating it in to the ground until CCP can be bothered to declare it an exploit and do something about it 6 months later. It pays to cheat in this game, it pays very well, we all know that CCP will be slow to act on any obvious gameplay issues and won't punish anyone in the mean time. The entire history of the game is riddled with victories brought on by metagaming and using things that have since become exploits. If Bacon disturbs you, then you haven't played EVE for very long. There has been far worse.
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:30:00 - [115] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: CCP Atropos but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. If Bacon disturbs you, then you haven't played EVE for very long. There has been far worse. It disturbs me. there have been cheats/exploits/you name it for nearly as long as EVE has been around. Still they disturbed me and I dare say 99% of EVE players. However, these were mostly limited to a small group of people. BACON caters to the masses and is readily available and useful to many. Also, it uses the logserver, seemingly clearing the path for other, worse, 3rd party programs that have more serious effect to gameplay. Yes it disturbs me. If it wouldn't I'd be a braindead monkey.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:34:00 - [116] Again, CCP, please respond... Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? I think the third point is the most important. How does one get "OFFICIAL" approval for an application? We've had every CCP response from 'this doesn't look like a problem', to 'this isn't a problem' on to 'we frown on it' to now, apparently, 'You brought an existing problem to light, you're a cheater.' That's in sequential order, by the way. How does a third party software developer go about getting a canonical answer?
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:54:00 - [117] Originally by: Reuser Again, CCP, please respond... Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? I think the third point is the most important. How does one get "OFFICIAL" approval for an application? We've had every CCP response from 'this doesn't look like a problem', to 'this isn't a problem' on to 'we frown on it' to now, apparently, 'You brought an existing problem to light, you're a cheater.' That's in sequential order, by the way. How does a third party software developer go about getting a canonical answer? Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. ------------------------------------
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:55:00 - [118] The comparisons between EFT/EVEMon and BACON are comical at best, trolling at worst. If you're stupid enough to not see the difference, let me point it out: BACON does something for you, actively, dramatically effecting your game play in real time. It watches local FOR you. Alertness is part of actively playing a game. If you have a program to be alert FOR you, then that program is playing part of the game FOR you. EFT, on the other hand, is a database of information. You tell it what your character's skills and implants are, and it tells you what performance you might be able to get by fitting module x on ship y. It doesn't actually DO anything with your game play, in real time or otherwise, because YOU have to get those modules and those ships and those implants by your own effort. EFT does none of it FOR you. EVEMon is similar in the database aspect, in that it holds the equation for how long it takes a skill to train based on attribute scores which are affected by learning skills and implants. You tell it what your current skills and implants are, and it does some math and tells you how long it will take to train a whole queue of skills. It doesn't log on and switch to train the next skill when your current skill is finished. It doesn't buy your skillbooks. It doesn't do anything FOR you. It's merely a source of information which has already been publicly circulated by CCP itself - they've told us the skill training multipliers, they've told us the equations for the stacking penalties on modules. EVEMon and EFT = Database of information unable to effect game play in real time. BACON = Program which automates being alert by watching local FOR you, in real time. And you can't tell the difference? You can't see what makes BACON bad, while EFT and EVEMon remain good? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:59:00 - [119] Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Don't hold your breath - they never did. What they said was, "Technically this doesn't violate EULA/TOS." At the time, it didn't. And I think even right now it doesn't, as I haven't been presented with a new EULA to click I Agree on. But it's just like any other issue that comes up. I mean, hell! Once upon a time, there was no rule saying you couldn't join an alliance and drop out of it to wash wardecs from your corporation - then it was done on a large scale, to the point where it made noise and got attention, and CCP dropped the hammer on it. Same thing here. Just because programs like this have been in existence and in use for years doesn't mean they should be - it just means that not enough noise was made and not enough attention was given, so no change was made. How does the old expression go? The squeeky wheel gets the oil? Gunfleet just squeeked, so now the logserver.exe is going to get oiled. GG Hydra. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:02:00 - [120] Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Sure! Link Will you read it in chronological order? No. No, I doubt you will. Note that thread happened almost a week before we launched BACON. NM. Facts have been totally ignored in this thread. And I STILL want answers to my questions from CCP: Quote: Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?



Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.