EVE Search - Petition to change Logserver / ban BACON.

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Petition to change Logserver / ban BACON.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:04:00 - [1] Hello. This topic will be about petition to get the Logserver changed or ban BACON. Or at least try. Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam. Discussion about BACON can be taken in the other BACON topics. By reading this link here: http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp you can clearly see that there is nothing written about the actual Logserver there, it's only written about the actual EVE there. So since there is nothing in the EULA about using 3rd party apps on the Logserver, then they ofc will say it's allowed. But the TERMS OF SERVICE might be way out of date there, but as long it's documented there and not updated, then we have to go after what's beeing written there. But the EULA there still say something that makes BACON against the rules. The first rule i see it break, is about the 3rd party apps. The users of BACON say that it doesn't have any communication with the EVE server, so it's allowed. That might be true. But they don't seem to get the point. NO 3rd party apps that gets ANY information of what's happening ingame shouldn't be allowed in any ways. Whatever the reason is. The second rule i see it break is about advantage over other players. Yes, BACON takes an advantage over me for example, because i don't use BACON, and will never do. And as far as i know, the reason why UI modification is not allowed in EVE, is because you can easily make add-ons to EVE then that takes an advantage over other players. So that's why that's forbidden. And it will stay like that forever. BACON takes an advantage over other players because it makes a sound when some hostiles or whatever enters local and then does the job for you so you don't have to check local when some hostiles or whatever jumps in. While i have to manually check the local all the time, and play like other loyal players are doing. BUT.., BACON is not the worst thing here, but that's not the point, the real problem here is that BACON might be a start on something that can be a REALLY REALLY big nightmare / problem for CCP soonÖ if they don't fix the Logserver or at least ban all types of 3rd party applications like BACON. That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloack when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???. By allowing this app, CCP will then let stuffs like this happens. Things like this might already be happening, but even when that's happening it shouldn't continue. It should STOP right NOW before it's to late. You might think i'm very desperat now when making this topic, but i'm not, i'm making this topic because i want to continue to play EVE for many many more years, and that without 3rd party apps that will slowly kill EVE. I have been playing EVE Online for over 4 years now, and i'm sure CCP will still love to have me here. But then CCP have to listen to us to. This topic is only to hope that CCP will make EVE Online a better game, and to hope that CCP will listen to us loyal players on what's good for EVE and that. So by this topic i want EVERYONE that support and those who are signing this topic to write CCP a petition on WHY you want them to change the Logserver or at least ban apps like BACON. A petition always helps, so the more who write CCP a petition about this, the more the chance it will be that they are doing something to get this changed. So here is the e-mail address you can send your petition to if you want or at least try to make EVE a better game: [email protected]. May the cheaters burn in hell. NightmareX
Koala Bare eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:07:00 - [2] Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:10:00 Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:07:56 it's getting boring ya know .... eleventymillion same topics ... Besides, why do you want to burden the customer support folks who don't put together the policies with even more work so they can't address actual active and ongoing petitions >.< Try intelligence and social implants, really, they do help.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:10:00 - [3] I forgot to say that you can tell me the right place to send a petition if the Support address is not the right place to send a petition to.
Koala Bare eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:11:00 - [4] Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:13:17 Originally by: NightmareX I forgot to say that you can tell me the right place to send a petition if the Support address is not the right place to send a petition to. You forget a lot. See implants comment. Seriously, don't cause unnecessary customer support spam. Besides directing your sillyness at the wrong people, it gets in the way of their actual job. Think spammage will result in more CCP kneejerking? Fine, but then you have to really work for it, instead of this silly stuff. Besides, cut CCP some slack. They're creative and thorough enough to come up with something, as they have already stated ....
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:15:00 - [5] I'm not pro or anti-BACON, but all I can say is it's a pointless fight. You'll always have people trying to write apps to gain advantage over others. What will you say the day someone writes an app that checks the pixels on your screen to see if the local has changed? The only way CCP will be able to fight against that will be by putting process checkers on your computers. Originally by: NightmareX Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam. "My opinion is the only right one, so I don't care about others" ?
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:16:00 - [6] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 15:17:48 CCP have said that they are gonna do something with the Logserver, but it's not confirmed yet that it will happen. If someone from CCP can confirm in this topic that the Logserver will be changed, then i'm getting happy, and ofc this topic isn't actually needed. And also, BACON lovers can stay out of this topic.
Batolemaeus Caldari Batolemaeus Corp	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:17:00 - [7] I absolutely support the idea of changing the way logserver works, so it will no longer be possible to gather relevant information IN REALTIME. A delay if ok for bugreporting. A 5 minute delay will render any application basing on the logserver files useless.
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Koala Bare Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:10:00 Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:07:56 it's getting boring ya know .... eleventymillion same topics ... Besides, why do you want to burden the customer support folks who don't put together the policies with even more work so they can't address actual active and ongoing petitions >.< Try intelligence and social implants, really, they do help. Nobody is forcing you to read it you know. Click back and move on. I totally agree with nightmareX here. You dont even need to pay attention to local with bacon. It alerts you when neut/hostile enters local. Bacon might not affect the game play of other that much, right now. But it will in the future.
Demitria Fernir Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:20:00 - [9] Edited by: Demitria Fernir on 04/05/2008 15:19:58 don't think any of this will ever happen. i think CCP is caring more about the next expansion instead of whining on the forums (like "WOW I NEVER SAW THAT ONE COMING")
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:20:00 - [10] Topic has been discussed a lot already but its an important one. Suffice to say I agree with you that BACON should be stopped, and doing it via log-server alterations/tightening-up, is the way. One thing I will is that in the future this kind of petition topic will be greatly improved by the CSM functionality - where CSM reps can tag a topic for attention and a voting poll can be added to see if it attracts the minimum 5% support for CSM consideration of agenda items. I'll also say that I'm standing for CSM election and if I'm elected I'll definitely vote for the restriction of log-server derived 3rd party applications like BACON and for the immediate banning of BACON itself.
Koala Bare eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:27:00 - [11] Originally by: NightmareX I have been playing EVE Online for over 4 years now, and i'm sure CCP will still love to have me here. But then CCP have to listen to us to Waiting for someone to ask if they can have your stuff then. Originally by: NightmareX And also, BACON lovers can stay out of this topic. Quit the whining. You opened a discussion thread, so as always it's going to strand in .. omg .. discussion. Look. I can't stand the whole concept of BACON as much as the next guy. But, I did take it for some spins in the place where everyone has his or her farmer alts, HYDRA. Results were simple: it doesn't give more advance warning, just the same, it doesn't discount the afk factors (seriously no audio alert is going to get your wife to let you turn back attention to the screen), all it does is make people lazy. Tbh I loved that part, didn't even need to use the Hydra alts to preset targets for ganks :P Picking out Bacon as the ultimate evil is kinda ignorant and stupid however, as over the past years there have been similar, and even far deeper reaching tools going round in 0.0 alliances. Only when these Bacon dudes had the balls to check in with CCP, did the wannabee gankers panic. More whining ain't gonna help, and if you hadn't noticed CCP is getting allergic to the historic bashing to get kneejerk reactions to roll out. For the first time, CCP are not just aware, but also in touch with both concept and challenges of these third party interactions. Now let them get their heads around it. And please, stop being naive folks.
Koala Bare eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:31:00 - [12] Originally by: cyt0matrix You dont even need to pay attention to local with bacon. It alerts you when neut/hostile enters local. Bacon might not affect the game play of other that much, right now. But it will in the future. Bacon is perfect for nano wannabee ganker groups with a bit of brains. The targets are not only beefy, but also lazy and relient on tools outside of the game, without anything in real life changing their afk factors. Like NightmareX here any smart small roaming group puts alts in target groups, see how lazy the Hydra bunch is getting - it's perfect tbh. Bacon ain't the issue. The functionality boundaries are. Over the years folks have told CCP of third party tools which make Bacon a very amateuristic and limited tool, from Local impact to Market abuse, that's where the focus should be, and not at the whining. Thing is bro, eleventymillion threads aren't going to help, to the contrary, and neither is support spamming going to help, on the contrary.
Faife Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:06:00 - [13] Good lord OP, they said they're working on it, quit being a little petulant child. You're not doing anything besides wasting bandwidth and their time.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:12:00 - [14] Like i said earlier here, if CCP can confirm 100% that they are changing the Logserver for REAL, then we don't need this topic, but like i also said, it's not been confirmed that it's actually happening. It takes the Devs 2 mins to write a reply here and confirm that they are changing it or not, so i see no problems with that. As long it's not confirmed, then i see a good reason for this topic to be here.
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:17:00 - [15] GM Grimmi has already said they're changing the logserver.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:18:00 - [16] Linkage from page 21 of the BACON (relaunch) thread that is now locked. Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings, The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer. Regards, GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:21:00 - [17] Don't bother posting links to anything. NightmareX can't read. True story.
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:24:00 - [18] Quote: Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam. Quote: Petitions or "/signed" posts are a version of bumping and likewise are not permitted. For someone who cares about the rules so much... ;) Quote: BUT.., BACON is not the worst thing here, but that's not the point, the real problem here is that BACON might be a start on something that can be a REALLY REALLY big nightmare / problem for CCP soonÖ if they don't fix the Logserver or at least ban all types of 3rd party applications like BACON. That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloack when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???. As I've written before, Gunfleet has jumped through hoops to make BACON not be a EULA violation. Warping automatically would be a macro and obviously forbidden. Killing the app is a little more of a grey thing, but I would argue that that's a EULA violation too. BACON is not... you argue a slippery slope, but there's a big wall in the middle of the slope called the eula and most of the stuff you guys propose is quite firmly against it. Anyway, have you considered the flipside of the coin? Imagine some 0.0 space where every blue has "BACON", well, a centralized version of it. It'd be like an intel channel but better, a way to keep space much safer than is currently possible. But it'd require resources-- either people to populate the systems where you're getting intel, or else AFK cloakers, which cost ISK for GTCs and will soon be able to be probed out. And of course you'll need someone smart enough to maintain a server, which could get hacked. If there are enough reds, no amount of intel will keep your space safe. Indeed, even a few would be enough to disrupt the intel that you might come to rely on. But if and only if you could get it to all work, and have enough blues, everyone could see when roaming gangs are coming and it would be far less dangerous to rat and mine. So your alliance will get richer, and you could rent out some systems to carebears which would have great value due to the added security. So, as a flipside to "BACON will kill EVE", you could say BACON has the potential to add an extra layer of depth to EVE, at least in nullsec.
darklegionca Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:24:00 - [19] Adapt or go back to wow enough said
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:28:00 - [20] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:29:19 Oh i forgot to say IN BEFORE THE BACON BEARS. Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets. Well, if the petition thing or signing thing isn't allowed, then it's fine, but then at least show your respect to CCP here and write something that is against the BACON or support that you want Logerser to be changed ASAP. SHOW CCP SOME RESPECT.
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:32:00 - [21] Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets. Did the API kill EVE...?
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:32:00 - [22] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:33:07 Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets. Did the API kill EVE...? No but that's a totally different story. The API key is something totally different from this BACON thing, so it doesn't have anything to do with this.
Aaetos Caldari SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:33:00 - [23] mega fail adapt and die or whatever cba to read your almost structured WoT but i managed to the first bits "do not post if u disagree with me" - most utterly failing thing ever on this forum You sir, are a Swine Lets start a petition to remove the 1% of people that think bacon is really having a massive impact on eve. People could easily meta game before bacon, and will always find ways no matter what you try to do. and you know what? Thats the beauty of creativity. people will always suceed in beating "the system" so get ur head down, and let it flow over you, rather than trying to fight pointless battles NOBODY really cares about.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Aaetos Lets start a petition to remove the 1% of people that think bacon is really having a massive impact on eve. Sorry, but you fail to understand this topic.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:36:00 - [25] please ccp, won't you think of the tri killboard? it's gonna bring down their epeen. so pretty pretty please ban bacon.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Aaetos mega fail adapt and die or whatever cba to read your almost structured WoT but i managed to the first bits "do not post if u disagree with me" - most utterly failing thing ever on this forum You sir, are a Swine Lets start a petition to remove the 1% of people that think bacon is really having a massive impact on eve. People could easily meta game before bacon, and will always find ways no matter what you try to do. and you know what? Thats the beauty of creativity. people will always suceed in beating "the system" so get ur head down, and let it flow over you, rather than trying to fight pointless battles NOBODY really cares about. CCP cares about it... Originally by: Havohej Linkage from page 21 of the BACON (relaunch) thread that is now locked. Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings, The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer. Regards, GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:55:00 - [27] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:33:07 Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets. Did the API kill EVE...? No but that's a totally different story. The API key is something totally different from this BACON thing, so it doesn't have anything to do with this. But it can "get information about something that is happening ingame"
Strak Yogorn Amarr Mind Warpers	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:04:00 - [28] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:49:21 Like i said earlier here, if CCP can confirm 100% that they are changing the Logserver for REAL, then we don't need this topic, but like i also said, it's not been confirmed that it's actually happening. It takes the Devs 2 mins to write a reply here and confirm that they are changing it or not, so i see no problems with that. As long it's not confirmed by the Devs, then i see a good reason for this topic to be here. actually we dont need this topic anyway, as it brings nothing new to the discussion, you might as well have used one of the 342565726 other topics .. bacons biggest problem is, that they went public. just imagine if you could get the users of all the other utils to admit, that they are using something to gain an edge.. but that will never happen.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:33:07 Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets. Did the API kill EVE...? No but that's a totally different story. The API key is something totally different from this BACON thing, so it doesn't have anything to do with this. But it can "get information about something that is happening ingame" Does the API key makes you take an advantage over other players?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Strak Yogorn actually we dont need this topic anyway, as it brings nothing new to the discussion, you might as well have used one of the 342565726 other topics .. bacons biggest problem is, that they went public. just imagine if you could get the users of all the other utils to admit, that they are using something to gain an edge.. but that will never happen. Actually, being open and honest is BACON's biggest strength, not BACON's biggest problem, IMHO. Second, you are right. This thread is nothing different than the x other rants on BACON. Problem is, NightmareX was losing quite badly to his own logic in the other thread. I stopped reading when he started accusing CCP of breaking their own EULA. tl;dr - In before the lock.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:16:00 - [31] Originally by: NightmareX Does the API key makes you take an advantage over other players? Do you even know what is possible using the API? Some of Gunfleet's next applications leverage the API, and I assure you, if BACON is freaking you out, go ahead and quit now.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:16:00 - [32] Every good minded person knows that what i'm talking about here is like it should be. I know you bears will defend your cheating program because your to lazy to play the game like everyone should, so no wonder why.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:24:00 - [33] Originally by: NightmareX Every good minded person knows that what i'm talking about here is like it should be. I know you bears will defend your cheating program because your to lazy to play the game like everyone should, so no wonder why. There you go. Let it all out. You'll feel better :).
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:53:00 - [34] Originally by: NightmareX Every good minded person knows that what i'm talking about here is like it should be. I know you bears will defend your cheating program because your to lazy to play the game like everyone should, so no wonder why. You picked the wrong forum to post this. You should have posted in feature and ideas forum. General discussion is full of bears.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:57:00 - [35] Originally by: cyt0matrix Originally by: NightmareX Every good minded person knows that what i'm talking about here is like it should be. I know you bears will defend your cheating program because your to lazy to play the game like everyone should, so no wonder why. You picked the wrong forum to post this. You should have posted in feature and ideas forum. General discussion is full of bears. . True true.
Speaker Dead	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:13:00 - [36] Ok, so lets say CCP manages to kill Bacon, then adds a skill called autoscanning that does the same thing....are your feelings still hurt? Can everyone have your stuff? If this were a more lifelike game, your ship would automatically warn you when anyone comes in system, without having to have your eyes glued to a local chan. Lets face it, not everyone wants to play the game your way.... My name is Orrmick Bomama, and I approved this message.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:28:00 - [37] Look! Look at how stupid you are! (CCP already said they are changing it. stfu.)
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Look! Look at how stupid you are! (CCP already said they are changing it. stfu.) Yes a GM have said something about changing the Logserver, but there is no answers from ACTUAL CCP Devs about it. I want to get confirmed by the CCP Devs and not the Game Masters, that the Logserver is beeing changed.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:44:00 - [39] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 18:39:27 Yes a GM have said something about changing the Logserver, but there is no answers from ACTUAL CCP Devs about it. The GM doesn't have anything with the development of the Logserver to do so. I want to get confirmed by the CCP Devs and not the Game Masters, that the Logserver is beeing changed. GM's = CCP. I somewhat doubt a lead GM that I would guess likes their job will come announce some change that isn't actually happening. Again, look how stupid you are.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:46:00 - [40] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 18:47:27 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 18:39:27 Yes a GM have said something about changing the Logserver, but there is no answers from ACTUAL CCP Devs about it. The GM doesn't have anything with the development of the Logserver to do so. I want to get confirmed by the CCP Devs and not the Game Masters, that the Logserver is beeing changed. GM's = CCP. I somewhat doubt a lead GM that I would guess likes their job will come announce some change that isn't actually happening. Again, look how stupid you are. Again, the GM's are not CCP Devs. Yes they are a part of CCP, but not Devs.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:49:00 - [41] Originally by: NightmareX Again, the GM's are not CCP Devs. Yes they are a part of CCP, but not Devs. Why does that change anything? They are still representatives of CCP. You seriously have some personal issues. Need much attention?
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:52:00 - [42] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 18:53:08 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Originally by: NightmareX Again, the GM's are not CCP Devs. Yes they are a part of CCP, but not Devs. Why does that change anything? Because i feel better if a CCP Dev can confirm or deny it. And many others are probably thinking the same. Oh boi, /me loves the bears who are trying hard to defend the cheating software.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:56:00 - [43] Originally by: NightmareX Because i feel better if a CCP Dev can confirm or deny it. Oh boi, /me loves the bears who are trying hard to defend the cheating software. Where did I defend it? I'm quite against it actually. I'm just happy to accept it's already been addressed by CCP. What's annoying is the attention seeking morons who keep posting about this who's life ambitions it is is to get blue bars on a thread. Why does it being a dev make any difference? Surely the only difference between CCP employees on this one would be 1) CCP employees that didn't program the fix and 2) the CCP employee that did. So what you are requesting is that the programmer that fixes this comes to the forum and personally addresses you regarding this? Seriously. Shut up. You are a terrible poster.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:08:00 - [44] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 19:08:13 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Where did I defend it? I'm quite against it actually. Ok good. But don't post in a way then that can make others think that you are defending BACON then. And no, i'm not a terrible poster, i'm a honest poster.
Loyal Servant Caldari Wandering Stars Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:12:00 - [45] Well, lets look at it this way. I learned of this 'bacon' the other day, from someone that advocated that I use it. So, it's basically something that reads the data from the logserver... I have not really studied it. But, if it is swiping data out of the game in real time or near real time as far as I'm concerned it's a cheat. CCP may say that it is not a cheat right now but if they can create things that sniff data from the client then I can create things that sniff from the client too. This is something that should not be allowed, not because it makes it easier for nanogankers to run around killing n00b ratters - but because you are simply not allowed and should not be allowed to create third party add-ons. That is the only reason this should be disallowed. It is also just as good using that method to create much better macro tools - it needs to stop.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:17:00 - [46] My kill rate has gone up since the introduction of BACON, and I don't even use it!! THANKS BACON!
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:17:00 - [47] Originally by: NightmareX Every good minded person knows that what i'm talking about here is like it should be. I know you bears will defend your cheating program because your to lazy to play the game like everyone should, so no wonder why. By bear, do you mean carebear? It's a sensible generalization, but not a correct one. I, for one, haven't shot a rat or mined an asteroid in who knows how long.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Cori4n By bear, do you mean carebear? Yes that's right, it's carebear.
Sunbird Huy Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:27:00 - [49] Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 04/05/2008 19:31:50 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 15:17:48 CCP have said that they are gonna do something with the Logserver, but it's not confirmed yet that it will happen. If someone from CCP can confirm in this topic that the Logserver will be changed, then i'm getting happy, and ofc this topic isn't actually needed. And also, BACON lovers can stay out of this topic. LOL...TRI don;t like BACON...must be on religious basis... no more nano-faggoTRI... And BACON is not an advantage giving, just lets u reduce the localchat window and actually see the surroundings. oh...an edit... were u guys not the ones shooting your own people without any notice? coz i am sick and tired of local channel taking a good 1/6 of my screen. and BACON is there for everyone, not just selected people. LOL...how weird u come to CCP when u don;t like something, but slap them on every other occasion
Dr Qu Caldari Gone Viking	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:30:00 - [50] I have a feeling that you are not paying enough or contribute enough to CCPs income to actually make them bother about your demands for answer. I mean, if you dont get your answer, what will you do? Quit? CCP has 30.000 other players to get income from. I find these threads to be full of hypocracy. These types of programs are not new. They existed before bacon. But did any of you muppets cry out then? No, you did not. Being quite when one guy has a gun and shoot people, but joining the 'ban guns now!' activists when 10 more gets them does not make you righteous. It makes you slightly stupid. If you had wailed, *****ed and moaned like a petulent child when just one guy had it you might never had come to the situation where the other 10 got them. Same with BACON. Whining because the little man also has the tool to save his ship that the big guys had before does not make you a hero. Two facts for you: 1) You arent paying CCP enough to allow you to demand answers from the Devs. They know it. We know it. You apparently dont know it. 2) Yelling at the top of your lungs that 'its bad' when its existed for a lot longer then this, only you didnt wrap your brain around it before, makes you a target for flame. Trying to flame proof your thread by saying its only for your opinion does not help your cause. Just a FYI. I am not for BACON. I dont use it. But I am certainly not for all the annoying people suddenly thinking they can save EVE by whining when someone publishes his or her 'cheat' software publically. As if BACON will be the end of it once its gone. Right.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:33:00 - [51] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 19:35:29 It's bad when more and more programs like this is beeing made to work with EVE. Don't you see that i'm only trying to stop a trend that is to make more and more apps like this? Or at least i'm trying.
Aaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhh	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:38:00 - [52] ffs, this coming from the clown who was carebearing in low sec (yeah, gate camp ganks is carebearing) while the rest of LV was fighting people who actually shot back No I have never used bacon No I dont plan on using it No I dont bottom feed like TwitmareX No I cant understand how that clown got into Quam
Fantaxy Gallente Viagra Lovers	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:39:00 - [53] i have to agree on the op here, the bacon sux and it should be removed asap! and i bet most of guys replying to this thread don`t mind the bacon ccp please remove it. thanks
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Dr Qu 1) You arent paying CCP enough to allow you to demand answers from the Devs. They know it. We know it. You apparently dont know it. It's nightmarex, no surprise... this isn't about Bacon or grand principles, only about attention. Originally by: Dr Qu 2) Yelling at the top of your lungs that 'its bad' when its existed for a lot longer then this, only you didnt wrap your brain around it before, makes you a target for flame. Trying to flame proof your thread by saying its only for your opinion does not help your cause. Once upon a time long ago in EDF he had a very different perspective... granted, it wasn't bacon as that was hardly around yet but the same concept went around.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:41:00 - [55] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 19:44:04 Originally by: Aaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhh ffs, this coming from the clown who was carebearing in low sec (yeah, gate camp ganks is carebearing) while the rest of LV was fighting people who actually shot back No I have never used bacon No I dont plan on using it No I dont bottom feed like TwitmareX No I cant understand how that clown got into Quam LOL, yeah it's coming from a player that have been a crappy carebear like 2+ years ago, but that doesn't mean i'm that today. And you had to use an alt to say that, wow.
Dr Qu Caldari Gone Viking	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:42:00 - [56] To be honest, you arent doing anything but writing a post that will attract annoyed people like me on a sunday evening. You might possibly end up drawing a GM that will lock the thread though. Other then that, you wont accomplish anything. Resistance if futile. Its futile to resist CCP allowing BACON for the time being. And it will be futile to resist CCP changing the log server to stop BACON from working. And it will be similarly futile to resist the next program popping up that will automate a part of the game without breaking the EULA. EVE is a MMORPG. I've played 4 of them. Not a single one had a good protection against third party softwares, not a single one of them weeded them out. They exist. They wil continue to exist. Some will get caught and stopped, some will not. Acting like the world is collapsing will not help at all. In the end, EVE is just a game. Even if CCP claims its a PVP game, players will always find their own playstyle within the game. Many of them will be **ed if you try to force them to play your way. And most of the time, the game developers will just stick to that one claim and then not do anything to force people to play one way or another. Again, this is also part of a MMO lifespan. The best you can do is to play with those of similar minds and accept the fact that EVE is a MMO, a Game.. a piece of software vulnerable to all kinds of things. Varied playstyles, third party unstoppable software and crazy people playing EVE with one hand and surfin ** with the other.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:45:00 - [57] All means to automate what SHOULD be player-driven parts of the game should be banned imo. With that said, bacon tastes nice.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:54:00 - [58] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 19:55:38 I at least used NightmareX to post this topic, and not use an alt to do it. Because i'm not scary of posting with my main. That was to the alt Aaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhh.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:55:00 - [59] Edited by: Zeba on 04/05/2008 19:55:33 So Nightmare X what part of GM Grimmi's post about CCP not liking BACON and are in the process of changing the client to nullify its use didn't you understand?
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:56:00 - [60] Originally by: NightmareX I don't care if this topic gets locked or whatever. All i care about is that CCP see that WE DON'T ACCEPT 3RD PARTY APPS TO BE USED WITH EVE ONLINE. And by that i mean to get info about other REAL players when they are entering local live. No matter how you are looking at it, it's cheat and it's taking and advantage over other players in EVE. And that's bad for EVE. They already addressed that, and are changing it. What's your point? Seriously, your attention whoring is getting to a stupid level now.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:56:00 - [61] Originally by: NightmareX But the EULA there still say something that makes BACON against the rules. The first rule i see it break, is about the 3rd party apps. The users of BACON say that it doesn't have any communication with the EVE server, so it's allowed. That might be true. But they don't seem to get the point. NO 3rd party apps that gets ANY information of what's happening ingame shouldn't be allowed in any ways. Whatever the reason is. Following that reasoning, the eve-data dump and it's usage in various 3rd party applications ( starting with Excel ), would be a violation of the EULA also. Data is provided by CCP, as is the logserver data, but not directly from the EVE client. My conclusion, failed/flawed logic on this point. Originally by: NightmareX The second rule i see it break is about advantage over other players. Yes, BACON takes an advantage over me for example, because i don't use BACON, and will never do. And as far as i know, the reason why UI modification is not allowed in EVE, is because you can easily make add-ons to EVE then that takes an advantage over other players. So that's why that's forbidden. And it will stay like that forever. Once again, you fail at reasoning here. Why ? EVE-Online was not designed or coded to have a third party extensible framework ( aka UI mods etc ). You also cannot say that it will never be possible, since you plainly do not know. Originally by: NightmareX BACON takes an advantage over other players because it makes a sound when some hostiles or whatever enters local and then does the job for you so you don't have to check local when some hostiles or whatever jumps in. While i have to manually check the local all the time, and play like other loyal players are doing. Tru dat, currently thou, you could download BACON and use it. Until it is declared a violation of EULA/ToS you are free to use it. NOT using it is your problem and you cannot complain about others using it. Only thing we can do is complain to CCP and help them to see the light or a solution to it. Originally by: NightmareX BUT.., BACON is not the worst thing here, but that's not the point, the real problem here is that BACON might be a start on something that can be a REALLY REALLY big nightmare / problem for CCP soonÖ if they don't fix the Logserver or at least ban all types of 3rd party applications like BACON. I mentioned that a few days ago. Welcome to realizing that the floodgates have opened.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:58:00 - [62] Originally by: Speaker Dead Ok, so lets say CCP manages to kill Bacon, then adds a skill called autoscanning that does the same thing....are your feelings still hurt? Can everyone have your stuff? If this were a more lifelike game, your ship would automatically warn you when anyone comes in system, without having to have your eyes glued to a local chan. Lets face it, not everyone wants to play the game your way.... My name is Orrmick Bomama, and I approved this message. That really is the most stupid argument ever. Guess what: not everyone wants to play the game YOUR way either - no kidding. GM Grimmi stated that CCP disapproves of BACON and all similar programs, and they're working on changing the way the logserver works so that it will be rendered inoperable. Eat it.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:59:00 - [63] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:03:49 Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 04/05/2008 19:55:33 So Nightmare X what part of GM Grimmi's post about CCP not liking BACON and are in the process of changing the client to nullify its use didn't you understand? I understand that a GM have said it already, but that doesn't make sense, because i have seen so many times that a GM have said something, and then later a Dev is telling something totally different that the GM are saying. It's not always that the GM's are 100% right about things. That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. I'm beeing an attention *****? LOL, not actually, i'm only trying to proove that BACON and eventually programs like that in the future will most likely kill EVE slowly but surely. But meh, i'll guess EVERY carebear would love to sit in a game with 475467467 add-ons (specually the BACON cheaters) that have made most part of the PVP playerbase to leave EVE, then you can sit in another WoW simulator and suck on your roids. What's fun in that?
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:00:00 - [64] Originally by: NightmareX I don't care if this topic gets locked or whatever. All i care about is that CCP see that WE DON'T ACCEPT 3RD PARTY APPS TO BE USED WITH EVE ONLINE. And by that i mean to get info about other REAL players when they are entering local live. No matter how you are looking at it, it's cheat and it's taking and advantage over other players in EVE. And that's bad for EVE. "You" doesn't equal "we", "we" implies "everyone". Unfortunately, while CCP frown at applications which use the client side files generated by applications like the Logserver, it's not a breach of the EULA as per their words. Ergo no cheating. We may think it IS cheating, but well, we don't define eve, that is what CCP does. As long as it doesn't breach the EULA it's no cheating. There's tools around which are far worse tbh. Yet as those make people money to spend on ships to pew pew with nobody has even dared to let those come into the light. Frankly speaking anyone silly enough to rely on Bacon functionality isn't going to cut it in EVE either way for the long run. Give it a rest. CCP see the big picture, they will get on top of it, nothing you say or do is going to force kneejerking.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:00:00 - [65] Originally by: NightmareX That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Go to iceland, camp the station. Err, office.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:03:00 - [66] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 04/05/2008 19:55:33 So Nightmare X what part of GM Grimmi's post about CCP not liking BACON and are in the process of changing the client to nullify its use didn't you understand? I understand that a GM have said it already, but that doesn't make sense, because i have seen so many times that a GM have said something, and then later a Dev is telling something totally different that the GM are saying. It's not always that the GM's are 100% right about things. That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Ahh ok. Sending a polite well worded e-mail with your concerns to the Dev in question might get a better result though.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Havohej GM Grimmi stated that CCP disapproves of BACON and all similar programs, and they're working on changing the way the logserver works so that it will be rendered inoperable. Thing is, that's only going to result in a race between the bullet and the armour. Files on someone's private PC as a concept results into a flailing theoretical legal debate drama on what you can do with those, as there is no policy framework on the use of the concept. In other words, say the Logserver generates hashed logfiles. Honestly think the very people who over the years have made such tools are not going to find a way around that? And without a formal policy, nothing can even be said about that :/ Not these Bacon guys btw, they put it in the open, that is much more then can be said of the folks who made other and similar tools over the years. CCP will get their head around this. It's not a simple picture, but EVE is complex and CCP deal with that complexity quite well. This is no different.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:04:00 - [68] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: NightmareX That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Go to iceland, camp the station. Err, office. LOL.
Aaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhh	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:05:00 - [69] the **** taking I would get from my corp mates for being in a MuppetmareX thread is enough .. but you were always a low sec bottom feeder, and anything that may possibly help the other denizens of low sec was bound to have you whinging in multiple threads ...
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:05:00 - [70] Originally by: Zeba Ahh ok. Sending a polite well worded e-mail with your concerns to the Dev in question might get a better result though. He'd be better off bribing or blackmailing CSM reps :P
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:09:00 - [71] Originally by: NightmareX That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloak when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???. Wrong ... Currently, BACON does not interfere in any form with the client ... once you add something that does CTRL+Q or anything in/to the client you automatically are in violation of the ToS/EULA. Big difference there. Argument, failed. Originally by: NightmareX By allowing this app, CCP will then let stuffs like this happens. Things like this might already be happening, but even when that's happening it shouldn't continue. It should STOP right NOW before it's to late. Superfly, n other threads and topics about it. Originally by: NightmareX You might think i'm very desperat now when making this topic, but i'm not, i'm making this topic because i want to continue to play EVE for many many more years, and that without 3rd party apps that will slowly kill EVE. Maybe you do not want to appear but you do look very desperate. Once you have had a GM and a Dev in the thread, trust me, things are being done/examined/looked at. Originally by: NightmareX I have been playing EVE Online for over 4 years now, and i'm sure CCP will still love to have me here. But then CCP have to listen to us to. Not so much anymore, aquiring a well known IP ( WoD ) they will have a way bigger audience for their technology. For all CCP cares, once WoD launches they could close down EVE-Online, which we beta tested until they use the same tech in WoD, without having to worry about income and their future. Trust me, they once had to listen to get the game going, smoothly and all that. Now ... CCP has two solid sources of income. One of them can be turned off without problems. Originally by: NightmareX This topic is only to hope that CCP will make EVE Online a better game, and to hope that CCP will listen to us loyal players on what's good for EVE and that. Not gonna happen. Originally by: NightmareX So by this topic i want EVERYONE that support and those who are signing this topic to write CCP a petition on WHY you want them to change the Logserver or at least ban apps like BACON. *****s, leave the petition system alone. Originally by:** NightmareX A petition always helps, so the more who write CCP a petition about this, the more the chance it will be that they are doing something to get this changed. It does not help with what you WANT to have. It helps only with something you are thinking you are entitled to have or with game related problems, ego-bolstering "Because of me ..." not included. FC
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:10:00 - [72] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. Well maybe the petition thing is not the best idea, but at least give CCP a reason why you want a cheat free game, or at least support it by trying to get rid of more programs like this.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:12:00 - [73] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Zeba Ahh ok. Sending a polite well worded e-mail with your concerns to the Dev in question might get a better result though. He'd be better off bribing or blackmailing CSM reps :P Given the current selection of candidates I'd say blackmail would be the moar effective of the two.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:13:00 - [74] Originally by: NightmareX I understand that a GM have said it already, but that doesn't make sense, because i have seen so many times that a GM have said something, and then later a Dev is telling something totally different that the GM are saying. It's not always that the GM's are 100% right about things. That's why i want an officially answer from a CCP Developer now. Reference links regarding GM's posting incorrect information on forums please.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:14:00 - [75] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:11:32 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. I do understand them, but I fail to find logic and/or sense behind most of them.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:16:00 - [76] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:16:55 And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. But sadly, it might happen if things like BACON doesn't get stopped. like i said earlier, please stop it before it's to late.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:17:00 - [77] Originally by: NightmareX And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. So basically, now you are trying to justify your attempt at dev attention seeking by posting the same thing over and over again just reworded. Nice.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:18:00 - [78] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:24:59 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Originally by: NightmareX And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. So basically, now you are trying to justify your attempt at dev attention seeking by posting the same thing over and over again just reworded. Nice. Ehh no, i'm just saying it to someone that might not have understanded it so far in the topic. And yeah, FYI, please keep the topic on topic to please. It have been mostly on topic so far, and it's good.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:27:00 - [79] Edited by: Franco Caruso on 04/05/2008 20:29:28 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. Well maybe the petition thing is not the best idea, but at least give CCP a reason why you want a cheat free game, or at least support it by trying to get rid of more programs like this. NightmareX, please read this post http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=761629&page=3#72 carefully.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:31:00 - [80] Originally by: Franco Caruso Edited by: Franco Caruso on 04/05/2008 20:28:46 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. Well maybe the petition thing is not the best idea, but at least give CCP a reason why you want a cheat free game, or at least support it by trying to get rid of more programs like this. Please read this post http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=761629&page=3#72 carefully. You know what?, i totally agree with that. The only positive i can see in BACON is that it forces CCP to change the Logserver (IF they do), and then makes the game more secure to such programs like BACON in the future.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:34:00 - [81] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:16:55 And seriously, i don't want EVE Online to get into a new WoW v2.0 with tons of L33T script kiddies from WoW that are destroying such good game as EVE Online with tons of 3rd party apps / add-ons, that's the last ting i want to see EVER. But sadly, it might happen if things like BACON doesn't get stopped. like i said earlier, please stop it before it's to late. Darn it, it simply cannot happen ! Apart mining a mission macros there is absolute, frecking no way to create add-ons like there are in WoW for EVE-Online. It's lacking the framework. Before you paint the future as black as you do and try to raise a panic, facts ... then fiction. FC
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:56:00 - [82] I support the petition to get BACON banned. This is as good as macroing. Even though people may find loopholes that make it "technically" valid, it doesn't change the intent and action of the program. Why are macroers not allowed? Because they automate certain actions. CCP doesn't want it's game to be played by automated actions, CCP wants players to be actively at the controls. This does the same. Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... read my sig), the program automates that action for them. Therefore, this is a macro. A 3rd party macro application giving an unfair advantage to the user. Get it banned ASAP!
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:04:00 - [83] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Franco Caruso stuff & link You know what?, i totally agree with that. Alright, that's settled then, off you two go to another thread, go make babies.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:06:00 - [84] Originally by: hydraSlav I support the petition to get BACON banned. This is as good as macroing. Even though people may find loopholes that make it "technically" valid, it doesn't change the intent and action of the program. Why are macroers not allowed? Because they automate certain actions. CCP doesn't want it's game to be played by automated actions, CCP wants players to be actively at the controls. This does the same. Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... read my sig), the program automates that action for them. Therefore, this is a macro. A 3rd party macro application giving an unfair advantage to the user. Get it banned ASAP! Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:14:00 - [85] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: hydraSlav ... Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it. You're perfect for each other... Both of you want to tell CCP what is and isn't right in their universe.
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:30:00 - [86] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: hydraSlav ... Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it. You're perfect for each other... Both of you want to tell CCP what is and isn't right in their universe. Actually they do have you beat there. Using a 3rd party application to gain an advantage by reading the log server is cheating. Read the ToS or EULA or what ever other thing you can find. CCP has even said themselves that they don't like players abusing the log server, yet you continue to advertise your programs. You even made claims that you have plans for even more involved programs than BACON that access the API. Here's a thought, instead of telling people to play the game the way CCP made it, why don't you try that first instead of using 3rd party apps to gain an advantage?
Genghis Kitty Hello Kitty Online Adventurers	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:56:00 - [87] Umm, didn't they already say they were going to change the way the log server works once all this hit the fan?
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:05:00 - [88] I do find all these bacon thread a bit over the top all the legal expert reading the EULA and explaining to CCP how something is against there EULA after they said it isnt. I also like the broad sweaping statments on what is and isnt cheating and what is an expliot. I dont use Bacon and I figure CCP will make what ever change they feel is appropriateto fix what they think the problem is, but in the mean time if people want to use it all the more power to them. If you want to start a crusade why dont you find what other application the big name allinaces are using and rally against then vs the one application that was released to the public. Maybe it because you dont want to rock the boat in your own alliance or something who knows.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:15:00 - [89] Ok ok, calm down a bit here. I was just talking with a dev on mIRC here, and after what he said, we have good news. [23:20] <Atropos\|other> the logserver is now being used in ways that were never intended, and we'll deal with this recent sea change [23:22] <Atropos\|other> the logserver was meant for _us_ to gather data to help _us_ fix problems [23:23] <Atropos\|other> not to give players aningame advantage [23:25] <Atropos\|other> theres been a lot of internal talk about the use and abuse of the logserver [23:25] <Atropos\|other> and none of us like the way it's being used [23:41] <Atropos\|other> there are plans afoot about the logserver [23:41] <Atropos\|other> but, you'll understand if i don't give you any specifics So by this, it's confirmed by a Dev that they ACTUALLY are gonna change the logserver. Was all i wanted to get confirmed by a Dev. And the dev even said it was beeing an ingame advantage by using the BACON the way it's beeing used now. So the question is then, why are you guys still contimue to defend BACON?, it's clearly that CCP don't like it and are changing the logserver. If CCP had allowed BACON to be used like now, they wouldn't start to change the Logserver right?
ColwirthMB Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:18:00 - [90] Nightmare will have my babies. That is all. Oh, and /signed
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:21:00 - [91] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Dario Wall You even made claims that you have plans for even more involved programs than BACON that access the API. Again, well crafted logic. By using the Application Programming Interface that CCP supplies, we are taking unfair advantage. Our crime is that we can code and you can't. I like how you just insult people that are against your little toy, instead of trying to prove why it is legit. Face the facts. You are using a 3rd party app to gain an advantage. Now CCP is working to nullify it. You lose.

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:30:00 - [92] What I've said, is basically a restatement of what Lead GM Grimmi said in his initial post. BACON is making use of the Logserver in a way that was never intended. Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that we're particularly pleased with. As Lead GM Grimmi said "we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this". The Logserver was meant to help solve bugs, not give anyone a viable or quantifiable ingame advantage. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. I'd love to say that EVE should be all that we need, but as has happened in the past, as players find external third party tools that they deem invaluble, such as TeamSpeak and Ventrillo, we deal with them in kind, as with EVE Voice. Each is dealt with based on the merits of the case, at the time. BACON and any similar tools will be dealt with as we see fit, in a manner we hope will resolve the situation satisfactorily. This should close the matter, I hope, but if you wish to continue constructive discussion on the matter I'll be keeping my eye on this. Additionally, please stop making all these silly little threads on the same topic. It's a waste of everyone's time when they can be consolidated into one main thread.

Legowan Wealson Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:33:00 - [93] Honestly, for anyone who stay honest to themselves, it should be quite obvious that what BACON does is not intended use of the logserver. That information is available so we can submit detailed debugging data to CCP and help improve the game, not so we can read the game state in any way. It's also against the spirit of EVE, even if it doesn't necessarily do something that confers a massive advantage to it's user. Though it's only a small step away from more serious macroing and cheating... Regarding the TOS, it badly needs to be rewritten. Right now you can interpret it as forbidding the use and development of tools like EVEMon and EFT (not exactly sure if that's what they meant by "tools for the game" when it was written, but you could conceive it meaning that), which clearly is not the actual policy. I have great sympathy for how CCP avoided this subject until the public release of BACON, since the use of such tools is not currently detectable and thus it's not possible to actually catch the people using them, but now that the cat is out of the bag I think stronger condemnation of it (on principle) is in order. Looking forward to those technical countermeasures being released :) (Yeah, far from all Hydra members use or approve of this app... Thank you for tarnishing our already slightly onerous reputation Gunfleet!)
ColwirthMB Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:34:00 - [94] Originally by: Legowan Wealson Honestly, for anyone who stay honest to themselves, it should be quite obvious that what BACON does is not intended use of the logserver. That information is available so we can submit detailed debugging data to CCP and help improve the game, not so we can read the game state in any way. It's also against the spirit of EVE, even if it doesn't necessarily do something that confers a massive advantage to it's user. Though it's only a small step away from more serious macroing and cheating... Regarding the TOS, it badly needs to be rewritten. Right now you can interpret it as forbidding the use and development of tools like EVEMon and EFT (not exactly sure if that's what they meant by "tools for the game" when it was written, but you could conceive it meaning that), which clearly is not the actual policy. I have great sympathy for how CCP avoided this subject until the public release of BACON, since the use of such tools is not currently detectable and thus it's not possible to actually catch the people using them, but now that the cat is out of the bag I think stronger condemnation of it (on principle) is in order. Looking forward to those technical countermeasures being released :) (Yeah, far from all Hydra members use or approve of this app... Thank you for tarnishing our already slightly onerous reputation Gunfleet!) I'm Coming in HOTT!
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:34:00 - [95] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 22:35:36 Thank you very much Atropos, was all i wanted to get here, a Dev reply telling exactly that.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:37:00 - [96] In fairness, people tend to lock these threads so that keeping them consolidated (or not) isn't entirely up to the player community. But yeah, this topic particularly did get at least 4 threads open at once at one point that I saw. Anyway, as you said you'd continue watching for constructive contributions on the subject, I have little to offer other than: "I hope that CCP does not decide to add an audible signal to the Local channel; anything that promotes 'afk-play' or effectively negates the risk that a player puts their assets at without them having to actually be alert is not a good addition to the game and that's just what BACON and any similar program is designed to do - play a very important part of the game for you." Thank you for your time.
Legowan Wealson Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:39:00 - [97] Edited by: Legowan Wealson on 04/05/2008 22:42:53 Originally by: ColwirthMB Edited by: ColwirthMB on 04/05/2008 22:36:44 I'm Coming in HOTT! And wheres my Carbonized Lead XL for the Sniping Dread:< I wasn't on that night, drones were clogging the logon duct... Oh, and I only fit stuff that drops off the rats on my capitals, so wouldn't know about that ammo ;) Btw, just for the record, my post above was a /signed (and I wrote it without having seen Atropos's post, hence it's reiterating some things he said more or less)
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:52:00 - [98] All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:53:00 - [99] Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent
Miki Fin Gallente Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:57:00 - [100] Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. I'm surprised that you find it disturbing tbh. Hasn't past experience taught CCP never to underestimate what Eve players will do for victory?

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:59:00 - [101] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play?

Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:04:00 - [102] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent Voice was put in because not everyone had access to host Ventrilo or Teamspeak servers. How ever, with Voice built in the game it enables those people to have a voice server to use for free to be on an even level with others. CCP won't enable a feature such as BACON's due to it being used to promote AFK playstyles, which they do not want. It was also already been shown that such a feature would make the use of macros simpler to implement, which CCP does not want.
Excesse Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:04:00 - [103] I support the arguments laid out by NightmareX and hope that BACON and programs like it are outlawed sooner rather than later. I believe that CCP's current stance towards BACON sets a very dangerous precedent and that the software gives an unfair advantage to players who use it.
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:05:00 - [104] Originally by: CCP Atropos the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. You (CCP) made a game with a quite big death penalty, did you expect players wouldn't try to avoid it by any mean necessary? BACON, blobing, nano ship, etc are all different aspects of a same problem: how to avoid the death penalty? Really, you shouldn't be disturbed at all, actually you should have expected it for a while.
Syn Exec Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:15:00 - [105] Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Hail our saviors! Down with BACON!
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:23:00 - [106] Edited by: NightF0x on 04/05/2008 23:24:56 Edited by: NightF0x on 04/05/2008 23:23:22 Originally by: CCP Atropos Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play? I don't want to be critical here but if CCP really does want to keep people from using such programs then why hasn't there been a client update to disable (or delay) writing to the log file? A simple 10 second delay would be enough to turn most users off from using it. It could be a temporary fix until something more permanent is released. The lack of updates to discourage the usage is why most people feel that CCP doesn't care to patch this obvious security hole. Edit: Personally I expected a patch the following day after their big 'we frown on the usage' post. I'm saddened along with a vast majority of players that nothing has been done to keep gameplay on a level playing field.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:47:00 - [107] Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
Lo3d3R MAFIA	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:49:00 - [108] I endorse this product and or service from NightmareX
Forum Joe	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:09:00 - [109] Wonderfull ! Quick ! NOTEPAD ! So : Let's write the names of the self declared C-H-E-A-T-E-R-S As such, we now have a list of corps and alliance who ALLOW THEIR MEMBERS TO CHEAT. What a nice day :)
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:11:00 - [110] Originally by: CCP Atropos That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play? <3<3<3
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:20:00 - [111] Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? Bump for answers to my questions. I don't feel comfortable being labeled as villains when we went out of our way to work with CCP in an open, transparent, and accountable fashion.
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:29:00 - [112] Edited by: Cori4n on 05/05/2008 00:30:22 Originally by: CCP Atropos I'd love to say that EVE should be all that we need, but as has happened in the past, as players find external third party tools that they deem invaluble, such as TeamSpeak and Ventrillo, we deal with them in kind, as with EVE Voice. Each is dealt with based on the merits of the case, at the time. BACON and any similar tools will be dealt with as we see fit, in a manner we hope will resolve the situation satisfactorily. This should close the matter, I hope, but if you wish to continue constructive discussion on the matter I'll be keeping my eye on this. Oh, come on, you're deluding yourself here. Ventrilo and TS were around far before the advent of EVE Voice, and still are more common than it for the obvious reason. EVEMon and EFT haven't been dealt with at all. Not that I'd mind if there was an EFT built into EVE ;) Anyway, don't forget that players can make very cool things when given the tools... even when given very limited tools. I for one would have gone to any length with the logserver to make cool stuff, it's barely even about the edge :P So I say... End the lagfest that is BACON! We need a client side API! --
Eronysis Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:03:00 - [113] Originally by: CCP Atropos Additionally, please stop making all these silly little threads on the same topic. It's a waste of everyone's time when they can be consolidated into one main thread. One main thread..which has been locked/closed removed over 3 times now...
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:10:00 - [114] Originally by: CCP Atropos but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. You can't be serious. You guys make one of the harshest PvP MMOs in existence whose whole base is on greifing, scamming, robbing, and otherwise ruining your opponent's day. Furthermore throughout the history of this game players have routinely been rewarded with victory for metagaming, hacking, and using every obvious cheat they can find and beating it in to the ground until CCP can be bothered to declare it an exploit and do something about it 6 months later. It pays to cheat in this game, it pays very well, we all know that CCP will be slow to act on any obvious gameplay issues and won't punish anyone in the mean time. The entire history of the game is riddled with victories brought on by metagaming and using things that have since become exploits. If Bacon disturbs you, then you haven't played EVE for very long. There has been far worse.
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:30:00 - [115] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: CCP Atropos but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. If Bacon disturbs you, then you haven't played EVE for very long. There has been far worse. It disturbs me. there have been cheats/exploits/you name it for nearly as long as EVE has been around. Still they disturbed me and I dare say 99% of EVE players. However, these were mostly limited to a small group of people. BACON caters to the masses and is readily available and useful to many. Also, it uses the logserver, seemingly clearing the path for other, worse, 3rd party programs that have more serious effect to gameplay. Yes it disturbs me. If it wouldn't I'd be a braindead monkey.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:34:00 - [116] Again, CCP, please respond... Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? I think the third point is the most important. How does one get "OFFICIAL" approval for an application? We've had every CCP response from 'this doesn't look like a problem', to 'this isn't a problem' on to 'we frown on it' to now, apparently, 'You brought an existing problem to light, you're a cheater.' That's in sequential order, by the way. How does a third party software developer go about getting a canonical answer?
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:54:00 - [117] Originally by: Reuser Again, CCP, please respond... Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? I think the third point is the most important. How does one get "OFFICIAL" approval for an application? We've had every CCP response from 'this doesn't look like a problem', to 'this isn't a problem' on to 'we frown on it' to now, apparently, 'You brought an existing problem to light, you're a cheater.' That's in sequential order, by the way. How does a third party software developer go about getting a canonical answer? Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. ------------------------------------
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:55:00 - [118] The comparisons between EFT/EVEMon and BACON are comical at best, trolling at worst. If you're stupid enough to not see the difference, let me point it out: BACON does something for you, actively, dramatically effecting your game play in real time. It watches local FOR you. Alertness is part of actively playing a game. If you have a program to be alert FOR you, then that program is playing part of the game FOR you. EFT, on the other hand, is a database of information. You tell it what your character's skills and implants are, and it tells you what performance you might be able to get by fitting module x on ship y. It doesn't actually DO anything with your game play, in real time or otherwise, because YOU have to get those modules and those ships and those implants by your own effort. EFT does none of it FOR you. EVEMon is similar in the database aspect, in that it holds the equation for how long it takes a skill to train based on attribute scores which are affected by learning skills and implants. You tell it what your current skills and implants are, and it does some math and tells you how long it will take to train a whole queue of skills. It doesn't log on and switch to train the next skill when your current skill is finished. It doesn't buy your skillbooks. It doesn't do anything FOR you. It's merely a source of information which has already been publicly circulated by CCP itself - they've told us the skill training multipliers, they've told us the equations for the stacking penalties on modules. EVEMon and EFT = Database of information unable to effect game play in real time. BACON = Program which automates being alert by watching local FOR you, in real time. And you can't tell the difference? You can't see what makes BACON bad, while EFT and EVEMon remain good? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:59:00 - [119] Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Don't hold your breath - they never did. What they said was, "Technically this doesn't violate EULA/TOS." At the time, it didn't. And I think even right now it doesn't, as I haven't been presented with a new EULA to click I Agree on. But it's just like any other issue that comes up. I mean, hell! Once upon a time, there was no rule saying you couldn't join an alliance and drop out of it to wash wardecs from your corporation - then it was done on a large scale, to the point where it made noise and got attention, and CCP dropped the hammer on it. Same thing here. Just because programs like this have been in existence and in use for years doesn't mean they should be - it just means that not enough noise was made and not enough attention was given, so no change was made. How does the old expression go? The squeeky wheel gets the oil? Gunfleet just squeeked, so now the logserver.exe is going to get oiled. GG Hydra. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:02:00 - [120] Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Sure! Link Will you read it in chronological order? No. No, I doubt you will. Note that thread happened almost a week before we launched BACON. NM. Facts have been totally ignored in this thread. And I STILL want answers to my questions from CCP: Quote: Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:05:00 - [121] Originally by: Havohej Gunfleet just squeeked, so now the logserver.exe is going to get oiled. GG Hydra. In essence, I agree. I just want CCP to be clear and open about it. Note - I have had my finger on the killswitch of bacon.gunfleet.org since I have read CCP's latest posts. I await their decision. Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:17:00 - [122] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Sure! Link No where do they say 'this isn't a problem'. They said that it doesn't appear to be a problem and that they will report back if it does but they don't give it two thumbs up as you happen to suggest. ------------------------------------
Finger Licking	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:17:00 - [123] Originally by: CCP Atropos What I've said, is basically a restatement of what Lead GM Grimmi said in his initial post. BACON is making use of the Logserver in a way that was never intended. Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that we're particularly pleased with. As Lead GM Grimmi said "we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this". The Logserver was meant to help solve bugs, not give anyone a viable or quantifiable ingame advantage. Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate. Hmmm, I don't see where GM Grimmi said this in his post....not that I disagree with you, but it seems to be a contradiction between what was said and what was remembered as being said.
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:24:00 - [124] Originally by: Finger Licking Originally by: CCP Atropos What I've said, is basically a restatement of what Lead GM Grimmi said in his initial post. BACON is making use of the Logserver in a way that was never intended. Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that we're particularly pleased with. As Lead GM Grimmi said "we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this". The Logserver was meant to help solve bugs, not give anyone a viable or quantifiable ingame advantage. Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate. Hmmm, I don't see where GM Grimmi said this in his post....not that I disagree with you, but it seems to be a contradiction between what was said and what was remembered as being said. If you are talking to Atropos then you have the wrong Grimi quote. He was referring to this quote. Quote: Greetings, The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer. Regards, GM Grimmi Lead Game Master ------------------------------------
Meat Hook Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:24:00 - [125] Originally by: CCP Atropos What I've said, is basically a restatement of what Lead GM Grimmi said in his initial post. BACON is making use of the Logserver in a way that was never intended. Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that we're particularly pleased with. As Lead GM Grimmi said "we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this". The Logserver was meant to help solve bugs, not give anyone a viable or quantifiable ingame advantage. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. I'd love to say that EVE should be all that we need, but as has happened in the past, as players find external third party tools that they deem invaluble, such as TeamSpeak and Ventrillo, we deal with them in kind, as with EVE Voice. Each is dealt with based on the merits of the case, at the time. BACON and any similar tools will be dealt with as we see fit, in a manner we hope will resolve the situation satisfactorily. This should close the matter, I hope, but if you wish to continue constructive discussion on the matter I'll be keeping my eye on this. Additionally, please stop making all these silly little threads on the same topic. It's a waste of everyone's time when they can be consolidated into one main thread. Fair enough you want to change it because it's taking advantage of the logserver in ways you never intended and I respect and understand that, I would never use this anyway. Only problem I have is that CCP never done anything about these programs in the past when big Alliances were using similar programs. Now that Gunfleet has brought it to the masses you want to finally stop it. If you are talking about balance and fairness why didn't CCP start working on the problem before it was shown to the little guys of EVE?
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:25:00 - [126] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Sure! Link Will you read it in chronological order? No. No, I doubt you will. Note that thread happened almost a week before we launched BACON. NM. Facts have been totally ignored in this thread. Yes, facts have been totally ignored - by HYDRA Alliance. You keep saying CCP gave us their blessing. You were asked for proof - you linked this thread. Chronologically, you ask if what you plan to do is bad, when in reality, you'd already done it (and probably had been using it - don't bother denying it, nobody will believer you) and were just asking for permission to release it publicly. CCP Lingorm (A dev) replied: Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you. My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call. Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer. Lingorm said, as an initial reaction, that there was nothing 'wrong' with this per se. Do you know what 'per se' means? It means, literally speaking, by the letter of the EULA, there is no violation here. It does NOT mean that it's perfectly okay and you're to be regarded as heroes for it. Not that Lingorm emphasized the word wrong by putting it in quotation marks to make the point that much clearer. You read what you wanted to read "There is nothing wrong with this." and nothing further. A few posts later, GM Grimmi, the Lead GM, replied: Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate. There did not APPEAR to be a violation of the EULA or TOS; it shouldn't be a problem. Not, "It isn't a problem." Not, "This is perfectly fine, CCP endorses this product and/or service." No, he said, "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS..." They reserve the right to change their minds. Meaning, they can declare it a violation at any time. They can even change the EULA and TOS themselves. After all, they were going to thoroughly investigate all reports. Never once has CCP said "BACON is a good thing." They were ambiguous from the beginning. Presumably this is because they didn't like it, and have never liked programs like this, but they run 100% client-side, so they couldn't hand out bans for things they couldn't detect, not to mention that this is one of their best tools for fixing bugs. Now they've dropped their ambiguity and said flat out, "We don't like this and we're going to change the logserver to fix it." And you have to ask, "Does this mean you want us to take it down?" You REALLY have to ask? Originally by: Cesar Malari We're about playing this game smarter, not harder. You guys sound pretty stupid right now from where I sit. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:26:00 - [127] Originally by: Meat Hook Fair enough you want to change it because it's taking advantage of the logserver in ways you never intended and I respect and understand that, I would never use this anyway. Only problem I have is that CCP never done anything about these programs in the past when big Alliances were using similar programs. Now that Gunfleet has brought it to the masses you want to finally stop it. If you are talking about balance and fairness why didn't CCP start working on the problem before it was shown to the little guys of EVE? How do you know that they weren't and never told anyone about it? They do tend to fix exploits, which BACON is, before they announce that they exist. ------------------------------------
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:30:00 - [128] so that about does it, BACON just got a hole bunch of antichlosteral medicine and we can go back to buisness as usual... i expect moar nanowhine threads now after the next collosal gank fest to commence unabated
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:32:00 - [129] Internet petitions accomplish nothing
Cesar Malari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:34:00 - [130] Since there appears to be a bit of question about this, I'll restate it here in public: Gunfleet is willing to take down the BACON website and the application if CCP asks us publicly to do so. So far, all I've seen are statements that it is frowned upon and that changes will be made in the future to make it not work. Fine. Nowhere have I seen a request to pull the application. If someone has seen such a request posted in public by CCP (now or in the future), I'd appreciate you bringing it to my attention so we can take action.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:41:00 - [131] Originally by: Cesar Malari Since there appears to be a bit of question about this, I'll restate it here in public: Gunfleet is willing to take down the BACON website and the application if CCP asks us publicly to do so. So far, all I've seen are statements that it is frowned upon and that changes will be made in the future to make it not work. Fine. Nowhere have I seen a request to pull the application. If someone has seen such a request posted in public by CCP (now or in the future), I'd appreciate you bringing it to my attention so we can take action. I probably wasn't clear enough in explaining for you guys to understand... It wasn't banned because it's client-side - they can't detect it, so they can't enforce banning it. Why declare something a violation publicly if you can't do ANYthing about it? This isn't even like RMT where they can at least track large transactions to their source and come up with something at least 60% of the time (at least!). This is something they couldn't enforce AT ALL, so might as well leave it to HYDRA Alliance to do what is obviously the right thing and take it down while they work on the changes that will allow their logserver program to continue to function as they need it to without opening holes like this for people like you to exploit. If we're all sitting down to dinner, and you're kicking me under the table, my looking to you and quietly saying "I don't like that, and I would prefer you didn't do it" should be enough to make you stop - I shouldn't have to jump through your hoop, stand up, tap my fork to the crystal and with great pomp and circumstance proclaim: "I hereby request that HYDRA Alliance please stop kicking my leg beneath the table. Thank you." Similarly, neither should CCP have to jump through the ego-hoop of some exploit-programmers and make a freaking press release asking that you twerps please stop hosting this exploit for even MORE people to download and cause even MORE damage, albeit in the short term. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Phant Zon Minmatar No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:43:00 - [132] Originally by: Havohej The comparisons between EFT/EVEMon and BACON are comical at best, trolling at worst. If you're stupid enough to not see the difference, let me point it out: BACON does something for you, actively, dramatically effecting your game play in real time. It watches local FOR you. Alertness is part of actively playing a game. If you have a program to be alert FOR you, then that program is playing part of the game FOR you. EFT, on the other hand, is a database of information. You tell it what your character's skills and implants are, and it tells you what performance you might be able to get by fitting module x on ship y. It doesn't actually DO anything with your game play, in real time or otherwise, because YOU have to get those modules and those ships and those implants by your own effort. EFT does none of it FOR you. EVEMon is similar in the database aspect, in that it holds the equation for how long it takes a skill to train based on attribute scores which are affected by learning skills and implants. You tell it what your current skills and implants are, and it does some math and tells you how long it will take to train a whole queue of skills. It doesn't log on and switch to train the next skill when your current skill is finished. It doesn't buy your skillbooks. It doesn't do anything FOR you. It's merely a source of information which has already been publicly circulated by CCP itself - they've told us the skill training multipliers, they've told us the equations for the stacking penalties on modules. EVEMon and EFT = Database of information unable to effect game play in real time. BACON = Program which automates being alert by watching local FOR you, in real time. And you can't tell the difference? You can't see what makes BACON bad, while EFT and EVEMon remain good? Not to mention the API was provided by CCP to be used for just such apps as EFT and EVEmon. Whereas the logserver information is NOT provided to be used in such 3rd party apps. If BACON was actually some kind of tool that used the logserver info to better hunt out bugs, it would probably be welcomed. It is instead a application that uses the logserver information for something it was never intended for, which is more or less the definition of a exploit, using resources provided for bug hunting for applications they were never intended for. At its core, it is a breach of the spirit of the 'law' if not the letter of the 'law'. If you want to play MMO lawyer you can argue about the definitions of words all you like, but to deny that simple, obvious truth is deliberate obtuseness at its best. CCP has been lenient in this case, possibly because of the general assumption that these sort of programs have been used among specific groups for some time now. There will likely never be any concrete proof that this assumption is true, due to the undetectable nature of these sorts of things. I would certainly hope that if CCP had definite evidence of the log server info being used this way before now that this issue would have been rendered moot by changes to the way the log server info works. CCP gave the players a tool that gave us the ability to help the development of the game we love. Every single person who has abused that tool for personal gain ought to be ashamed. CCP is not perfect, and players have every right to point out, respectfully and constructively where and when they have screwed up. Usually many of us instead choose to heap invectives upon them, speculate wildly about their parentage , accuse them of a multitude of sins and generally act like hooligans knowing, like the coward who attacks an Amish man or other steadfastly pacifistic person, they are constrained from striking back in a similar fashion. Instead of using the nuclear option(simply shutting off player access to the log server info) they have chosen a more moderate approach. Which is, if you ask me, more than many deserve. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 03:28:00 - [133] So many good points here now that it's actually fun to read this topic. And this also shows WHY i love CCP. CCP remember to me to give all of the devs a free beer when i'm coming to a FanFest sometime in the future. Isn't that about 250+ devs right now?, OH SNAP, my wallet will hurt. But meh, CCP deserve it anyways.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.05 03:39:00 - [134] Originally by: NightmareX So many good points here now that it's actually fun to read this topic. And this also shows WHY i love CCP. CCP remember to me to give all of the devs a free beer when i'm coming to a FanFest sometime in the future. Isn't that about 250+ devs right now?, OH SNAP, my wallet will hurt. But meh, CCP deserve it anyways. Then buy it
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.05 03:54:00 - [135] Originally by: Meat Hook Only problem I have is that CCP never done anything about these programs in the past when big Alliances were using similar programs. Now that Gunfleet has brought it to the masses you want to finally stop it. You know those little standings icons that are shown in chat channels next to player names? Where do you think that came from? A few alliances, won't mention names, thought it would be fun to alter EVE to show standings icons instead of portraits in chat. You can figure out what happened.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 04:17:00 - [136] Originally by: Dario Wall Originally by: Meat Hook Only problem I have is that CCP never done anything about these programs in the past when big Alliances were using similar programs. Now that Gunfleet has brought it to the masses you want to finally stop it. You know those little standings icons that are shown in chat channels next to player names? Where do you think that came from? A few alliances, won't mention names, thought it would be fun to alter EVE to show standings icons instead of portraits in chat. You can figure out what happened. I invite you to page 4 of this thread - interesting developments and dev replies (one of which basically says that no, they're not planning to incorporate BACON's functionality into the EVE client. And thank god for that... it was my chief worry. Note: Don't read any sarcasm into my reply - I genuinely invite you to the bounty of CCP Atropos' posts :) Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.05 04:21:00 - [137] Originally by: CCP Atropos the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. The irony is so thick... can I have a slice?
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.05 04:25:00 - [138] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Dario Wall Originally by: Meat Hook Only problem I have is that CCP never done anything about these programs in the past when big Alliances were using similar programs. Now that Gunfleet has brought it to the masses you want to finally stop it. You know those little standings icons that are shown in chat channels next to player names? Where do you think that came from? A few alliances, won't mention names, thought it would be fun to alter EVE to show standings icons instead of portraits in chat. You can figure out what happened. I invite you to page 4 of this thread - interesting developments and dev replies (one of which basically says that no, they're not planning to incorporate BACON's functionality into the EVE client. And thank god for that... it was my chief worry. Note: Don't read any sarcasm into my reply - I genuinely invite you to the bounty of CCP Atropos' posts :) You misunderstand me. I know they won't add BACON's function to EVE, as I stated in a post on page 4. Originally by: Dario Wall Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent Voice was put in because not everyone had access to host Ventrilo or Teamspeak servers. How ever, with Voice built in the game it enables those people to have a voice server to use for free to be on an even level with others. CCP won't enable a feature such as BACON's due to it being used to promote AFK playstyles, which they do not want. It was also already been shown that such a feature would make the use of macros simpler to implement, which CCP does not want.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.05 04:32:00 - [139] Indeed I did misunderstand you - and missed your reply on Page 4 to boot! My apologies Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Speaker Dead	Posted - 2008.05.05 04:35:00 - [140] Originally by: CCP Atropos Originally by: Havohej Originally by: cyt0matrix All hail Atropos and nightmarex. :) Finally we stop worrying about bacon. :P Yeah... now we just have to worry about whether CCP is going to make it an official game feature. Note the mention of EVE Voice in response to people using TS and Vent That was why I mentioned it, to play with your minds! Seriously though, do you think we would actually encourage afk play? You encourage multiple accounts, couldn't running 2 at the same time be considered "AFK PLAY"?
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2008.05.05 05:29:00 - [141] all I want to use bacon for is so I can sit afk like normal in a station, while on another account, and be told when a frackin war target comes so I can pwn him... Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.05 05:35:00 - [142] Originally by: Bryg Philomena all I want to use bacon for is so I can sit afk like normal in a station, while on another account, and be told when a frackin war target comes so I can pwn him... Why not just... I don't know, play the game?
Ikki Phoenix Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.05 05:41:00 - [143] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Meat Hook Fair enough you want to change it because it's taking advantage of the logserver in ways you never intended and I respect and understand that, I would never use this anyway. Only problem I have is that CCP never done anything about these programs in the past when big Alliances were using similar programs. Now that Gunfleet has brought it to the masses you want to finally stop it. If you are talking about balance and fairness why didn't CCP start working on the problem before it was shown to the little guys of EVE? How do you know that they weren't and never told anyone about it? They do tend to fix exploits, which BACON is, before they announce that they exist. personally,I have said many times: 1.Bacon is not a hack,nor an exploit.It is just a tool.Use it or not is each person's choice 2.The Bacon's devs are right.CCP recognized that other such tools existed,however they have not provided any explanation as to why they haven't done anything about it till Bacon came out 3.It makes me laugh and sad to see all of you screaming against Bacon,but no one has bothered to be screaming against the other such programs,which existence CCP recognized. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2008.05.05 05:46:00 - [144] Originally by: Dario Wall Originally by: Bryg Philomena all I want to use bacon for is so I can sit afk like normal in a station, while on another account, and be told when a frackin war target comes so I can pwn him... Why not just... I don't know, play the game? because I said I was just on another account, but playing all 5 of mine can be a hassle. Also, I routinely have upwards of 10 active chat windows open, it is one hell of a time, paying attention to local for that 1 war target to enter/login, chat about alliance politics, LA Area life, bounty, my personaly friends, business deals, scams, POS, trade etc. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature
Steel Tigeress Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:18:00 - [145] Dont use it and dont plan to... But maybe they could fix it by allowing yo to filter the portraits in local. Or sort them in different orders like the overview..... All reds to the top....Yes please.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:37:00 - [146] Originally by: Cesar Malari Gunfleet is willing to take down the BACON website and the application if CCP asks us publicly to do so. Do not make it sound more unimpressive as it already is. You do not need to take it down because CCP will render the logserver useless for purposes you intend it to use ( unless you have missed CCP Atropos posting in this thread about it ). Enjoy the glory of your application while it lasts. FC
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:46:00 - [147] Edited by: Zeba on 05/05/2008 06:46:25 Originally by: Franco Caruso Originally by: Cesar Malari Gunfleet is willing to take down the BACON website and the application if CCP asks us publicly to do so. Do not make it sound more unimpressive as it already is. You do not need to take it down because CCP will render the logserver useless for purposes you intend it to use ( unless you have missed CCP Atropos posting in this thread about it ). Enjoy the glory of your application while it lasts. FC Don't be too harsh on these guys. They are only doing the same thing the I-Mune guys did by exposing a borderline exploit that had been covertly used for ages by unscrupulous corps and alliances. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.05 08:54:00 - [148] What a bunch of whining and trollage. CCP please give the people like NightmareX a forum ban please. It deserves not to post here for a month or two for wasting everyones time with the troll spam that this thread is. This game is not owned by you and if you don't like the fact that CCP aren't implementing changes you want as fast as you are demanding them to then leave the game, give me your stuff first though. SO STFU OR GTFO. Your whine when CCP have already stated they are doing something about it is not funny and stating over and over again in multiple threads that you are a spoilt brat won't get you anywhere. You have been asked to give them time to deal with this. If you can't do that then leave the game. Bye. "Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam." Your entire thread and every single one you have made and will make in regards to this topic is spam and you deserve a forum ban. And then the sentence itself. You own the game? You think your opinion is the only right one? You are the only person who matters in this game? Can I have your stuff before your ego implodes in a monumental failure cascade. Go cry and whine elsewhere that you've been playing the game for four years, unless you mean that your opinion matters more than everyone else's because you have been playing for four years. Can I have your stuff? Now stfu and wait or give me your stuff before you leave. Bye mr failure cascade, go try and get some carebears in low sec or whatever it is that you fail at doing so you take your frustration out on a silly, irritating program.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:00:00 - [149] Edited by: NightmareX on 05/05/2008 09:10:06 Oh my god, i love troll posts like above, it only shows that i utterly pwned a BACON user in this topic. And no, i will not get any bans, i'm actually the last person in this topic to get that.
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:03:00 - [150] Originally by: Tatoed Goat What a bunch of whining and trollage. CCP please give the people like NightmareX a forum ban please. It deserves not to post here for a month or two for wasting everyones time with the troll spam that this thread is. This game is not owned by you and if you don't like the fact that CCP aren't implementing changes you want as fast as you are demanding them to then leave the game, give me your stuff first though. SO STFU OR GTFO. Your whine when CCP have already stated they are doing something about it is not funny and stating over and over again in multiple threads that you are a spoilt brat won't get you anywhere. You have been asked to give them time to deal with this. If you can't do that then leave the game. Bye. "Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam." Your entire thread and every single one you have made and will make in regards to this topic is spam and you deserve a forum ban. And then the sentence itself. You own the game? You think your opinion is the only right one? You are the only person who matters in this game? Can I have your stuff before your ego implodes in a monumental failure cascade. Go cry and whine elsewhere that you've been playing the game for four years, unless you mean that your opinion matters more than everyone else's because you have been playing for four years. Can I have your stuff? Now stfu and wait or give me your stuff before you leave. Bye mr failure cascade, go try and get some carebears in low sec or whatever it is that you fail at doing so you take your frustration out on a silly, irritating program. Where did I leave that *FAILURE!* stamp... You're doing nothing but flaming the OP for raising a very valid point and finally getting a statement from CCP on the matter. But wait, you probably use the tool and are just upset that it's going to get removed. BACON is a 3rd party application that reads the files from the log server to alert players when someone enters local. What does this mean? Well, for starters... You could be in the kitchen making dinner or watching TV, then you hear BACON beeping at you. So you run to the computer and cloak up and log. Secondly, the program can be altered to tie in with various macro scripts to full automate certain tasks, such as macro ratting. Someone enters local, the macro safe spots the ship and cloaks. BACON promotes fully AFK game play by removing central tasks from the players. CCP have said many times that they want players to actually play the game. Tools like this go against what CCP wants.
Havoc G Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:07:00 - [151] mmmmm bacon
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:15:00 - [152] Originally by: Dario Wall Where did I leave that *FAILURE!* stamp... You're doing nothing but flaming the OP for raising a very valid point and finally getting a statement from CCP on the matter. But wait, you probably use the tool and are just upset that it's going to get removed. BACON is a 3rd party application that reads the files from the log server to alert players when someone enters local. What does this mean? Well, for starters... You could be in the kitchen making dinner or watching TV, then you hear BACON beeping at you. So you run to the computer and cloak up and log. Secondly, the program can be altered to tie in with various macro scripts to full automate certain tasks, such as macro ratting. Someone enters local, the macro safe spots the ship and cloaks. BACON promotes fully AFK game play by removing central tasks from the players. CCP have said many times that they want players to actually play the game. Tools like this go against what CCP wants. I am flaming the OP for assuming this game is owned by him/her and for wasting space by making stupid threads over and over again. Last thread OP had to leave because OP got owned and now OP is getting owned again in it's own thread which will result in hundreds more threads because OP didn't get its own way. And alike OP you obviously didn't pass primary school because I already stated it's an irritating program but let that not get in the way of criticism that will only prove you can't read. I do not use BACON and I dislike it because it's irritating and adds in no way to my game play. But I do not hate it and am neutral towards its usage. I am not neutral to whining of epic proportions and attempts at creating threadnoughts have and will fail due to the irrelevance of this thread and all other threads preceding this because CCP have already stated they are working on this and attempting to prove to me why it's a bad programme will only add to the spam and achieve nothing. You can't wait for CCP to fix this? Can I have your stuff too?
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:16:00 - [153] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 05/05/2008 09:10:06 Oh my god, i love troll posts like above, it only shows that i utterly pwned a BACON user in this topic. And no, i will not get any bans, i'm actually the last person in this topic to get that. So does this mean you're going to give me your stuff?
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:18:00 - [154] Tatoed Goat, i recommend you to read the dev reply on page 4 before you say anything more in this topic. The devs is confirming that i'am right about the BACON thing. So STFU please.
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:21:00 - [155] Originally by: Tatoed Goat I am flaming the OP for assuming this game is owned by him/her and for wasting space by making stupid threads over and over again. Last thread OP had to leave because OP got owned and now OP is getting owned again in it's own thread which will result in hundreds more threads because OP didn't get its own way. And alike OP you obviously didn't pass primary school because I already stated it's an irritating program but let that not get in the way of criticism that will only prove you can't read. I do not use BACON and I dislike it because it's irritating and adds in no way to my game play. But I do not hate it and am neutral towards its usage. I am not neutral to whining of epic proportions and attempts at creating threadnoughts have and will fail due to the irrelevance of this thread and all other threads preceding this because CCP have already stated they are working on this and attempting to prove to me why it's a bad programme will only add to the spam and achieve nothing. You can't wait for CCP to fix this? Can I have your stuff too? You say the OP got owned in their own thread here? Funny, because judging from the Dev replies, it looks like BACON got owned. Before you try flaming someone, perhaps make an attempt to actually come up with some original insults that aren't just copied from everywhere on the internet. By the way, I did go to school, and college was fun. Though the $75,000 tuition for one semester was a total pain. Anyways, if you dislike BACON, how can you be 'neutral' on it? Disliking something means you have an opinion of it, so you contradict yourself on that one. Instead of flaming people for actually getting the Devs to finally make a statement on the issue, just click that little Back button in the top left corner of your browser. No one is forcing you to read every post in these threads.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:37:00 - [156] Originally by: Dario Wall Originally by: Tatoed Goat I am flaming the OP for assuming this game is owned by him/her and for wasting space by making stupid threads over and over again. Last thread OP had to leave because OP got owned and now OP is getting owned again in it's own thread which will result in hundreds more threads because OP didn't get its own way. And alike OP you obviously didn't pass primary school because I already stated it's an irritating program but let that not get in the way of criticism that will only prove you can't read. I do not use BACON and I dislike it because it's irritating and adds in no way to my game play. But I do not hate it and am neutral towards its usage. I am not neutral to whining of epic proportions and attempts at creating threadnoughts have and will fail due to the irrelevance of this thread and all other threads preceding this because CCP have already stated they are working on this and attempting to prove to me why it's a bad programme will only add to the spam and achieve nothing. You can't wait for CCP to fix this? Can I have your stuff too? You say the OP got owned in their own thread here? Funny, because judging from the Dev replies, it looks like BACON got owned. Before you try flaming someone, perhaps make an attempt to actually come up with some original insults that aren't just copied from everywhere on the internet. By the way, I did go to school, and college was fun. Though the $75,000 tuition for one semester was a total pain. Anyways, if you dislike BACON, how can you be 'neutral' on it? Disliking something means you have an opinion of it, so you contradict yourself on that one. Instead of flaming people for actually getting the Devs to finally make a statement on the issue, just click that little Back button in the top left corner of your browser. No one is forcing you to read every post in these threads. If I'm not with you then I'm against you? In that case I'm against you simply for the fact that I do not like the self righteousness here. I do not like it but I am neutral towards its usage. So just because you don't like fried sheeps brains it means everyone has to stop eating it? Thread is now defunct and pointless because arguing with people who haven't mastered a basic understanding of English is pointless because my argument isn't against BACON or any other program but the fact that OP feels the need to whine and whine because it's not getting its own way fast enough. Do contract me your stuff before you leave and that counts for you too Mr.-I-am-so-important-I-need-to-make-4642-threads-because-I'm-not-getting-my-own-way-fast -enough.
Dario Wall Caldari Black Legion Industries	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:50:00 - [157] Originally by: Tatoed Goat If I'm not with you then I'm against you? In that case I'm against you simply for the fact that I do not like the self righteousness here. I do not like it but I am neutral towards its usage. So just because you don't like fried sheeps brains it means everyone has to stop eating it? Thread is now defunct and pointless because arguing with people who haven't mastered a basic understanding of English is pointless because my argument isn't against BACON or any other program but the fact that OP feels the need to whine and whine because it's not getting its own way fast enough. Do contract me your stuff before you leave and that counts for you too Mr.-I-am-so-important-I-need-to-make-4642-threads-because-I'm-not-getting-my-own-way-fast -enough. Once again you misunderstand my post. I did not say that just because someone doesn't like something, no one can use it. I stated that if you are neutral on something, then you can not dislike it. Neutral means you neither like nor dislike it. Why does it matter to you if the OP is whining. Like I said in my previous post. You are not forced to read each and every topic. If you don't like the OP, then don't read their topics. Besides, CCP has already made a statement on the matter in this topic, so there is no point in continuing to flame the OP for posting this any longer. All you are doing is throwing yourself out there to look like even more of a whiner than they would have been. Before you even ask again, no I am not going to quit. Even if I did, I'd keep my stuff because I would come back.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:56:00 - [158] Edited by: NightmareX on 05/05/2008 10:01:01 Originally by: Dario Wall You're doing nothing but flaming the OP for raising a very valid point and finally getting a statement from CCP on the matter. But wait, you probably use the tool and are just upset that it's going to get removed. Exactly, all i wanted was an answer from a Dev that told how they was feeling about this BACON thing. CCP didn't had commented anything exactly about it anyways, so it was nice to get that answer from CCP Atropos. Because the GM answer alone about it was not enough in my eyes, but now both the GM and the Dev have said it, so i'm happy.
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:08:00 - [159] Originally by: Ikki Phoenix personally,I have said many times: 1.Bacon is not a hack,nor an exploit.It is just a tool.Use it or not is each person's choice 2.The Bacon's devs are right.CCP recognized that other such tools existed,however they have not provided any explanation as to why they haven't done anything about it till Bacon came out 3.It makes me laugh and sad to see all of you screaming against Bacon,but no one has bothered to be screaming against the other such programs,which existence CCP recognized. 1. Bacon is an exploit by definition. Try using a dictionary 2. They don't need to 3. Because the other programs aren't being used to such a large scale as Bacon. Given that and the fact that no one has ever came out and publicly announced such an exploit. Why don't you post a link to another such tool? ------------------------------------
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:15:00 - [160] Originally by: CCP Atropos but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. You haven't played Eve or other MMO's much, have you? People will say or do anything to get an advantage. Especially in an anonymous game like all MMOs pretty much are. I'd say using the logserver is pretty mild compared to the stuff I've already seen happen.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:40:00 - [161] Even when BACON is not the end of the world or one of the worst thing here in EVE, it's at least a little start on something good to get rid of things like BACON.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:51:00 - [162] Originally by: Zeba Don't be too harsh on these guys. They are only doing the same thing the I-Mune guys did by exposing a borderline exploit that had been covertly used for ages by unscrupulous corps and alliances. So far I have been feeling the following: - I very much liked them ( the creators ) for making it public and raising a fuss about it ( intended or not ). - I enjoyed the constructive discussion about it being inside/outside of EULA/ToS etc. - I danced when CCP announced ( in this thread ) that the logserver output will be rendered useless. - I went "Whiskey Tango Foxtrott ?" when the creator of the application posted his willingness to remove it from the web AFTER it has been made clear that things are gonna change and it will be obsolete soonÖ anyho. Harsh ? That smells just like getting a score in before it is too late. Totally and utterly superflu. FC

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:51:00 - [163] Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. BACON is what it is, and I don't think that there's ever been endorsement of a product that utilises the Logserver in such a fashion. I sincerely doubt that there will be an official call from us to cease BACON, since as has been said many times, it's not connected to EVE in any fashion, making detecting it tricky without creating some sort of invasive software trawl akin to Warden, and I'm sure that even those vehemently against BACON don't want that. Furthermore, BACON differs to other third party, community created tools such as EVEMon, EFT and Quickfit, because all of those are making use of resources that have been made available to specifically cater to those wanting to make software to work in concert with EVE. This is accomplished through the use of the API and the static data dumps for the most part, and doesn't rely on creating an alternate use for what is essentially a bug reporting tool. The trouble with creating a product that has such an avid fan base of computer savvy people is that we end up with situations such as this, where what essentially arises is a feedback cycle. We have created and released EVE, the community then creates Program A. In turn we reanalyse our stance and change EVE. The community then creates Program B... ad infinitum. This is the situation we're always going to be in since the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable. We're midway through that cycle presently, waiting for the 'official' response from us with the next iteration of our software. What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. If they hadn't created a particular tool, the sheer size of the player base would make it inevitable that someone else would; look at the concurrent rise in supply and demand for killboards as an example of this. What's left for us to do is redesign the associated areas of impact and move forward from there. I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. We're very much aware of the situation and as I've said already, it's being dealt with.

Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:04:00 - [164] Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. BACON is what it is, and I don't think that there's ever been endorsement of a product that utilises the Logserver in such a fashion. I sincerely doubt that there will be an official call from us to cease BACON, since as has been said many times, it's not connected to EVE in any fashion, making detecting it tricky without creating some sort of invasive software trawl akin to Warden, and I'm sure that even those vehemently against BACON don't want that. Furthermore, BACON differs to other third party, community created tools such as EVEMon, EFT and Quickfit, because all of those are making use of resources that have been made available to specifically cater to those wanting to make software to work in concert with EVE. This is accomplished through the use of the API and the static data dumps for the most part, and doesn't rely on creating an alternate use for what is essentially a bug reporting tool. The trouble with creating a product that has such an avid fan base of computer savvy people is that we end up with situations such as this, where what essentially arises is a feedback cycle. We have created and released EVE, the community then creates Program A. In turn we reanalyse our stance and change EVE. The community then creates Program B... ad infinitum. This is the situation we're always going to be in since the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable. We're midway through that cycle presently, waiting for the 'official' response from us with the next iteration of our software. What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. If they hadn't created a particular tool, the sheer size of the player base would make it inevitable that someone else would; look at the concurrent rise in supply and demand for killboards as an example of this. What's left for us to do is redesign the associated areas of impact and move forward from there. I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. We're very much aware of the situation and as I've said already, it's being dealt with. good post, wont shut up the teenage namecalling crap here though
Lyn Quan Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:06:00 - [165] Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. BACON is what it is, and I don't think that there's ever been endorsement of a product that utilises the Logserver in such a fashion. I sincerely doubt that there will be an official call from us to cease BACON, since as has been said many times, it's not connected to EVE in any fashion, making detecting it tricky without creating some sort of invasive software trawl akin to Warden, and I'm sure that even those vehemently against BACON don't want that. Furthermore, BACON differs to other third party, community created tools such as EVEMon, EFT and Quickfit, because all of those are making use of resources that have been made available to specifically cater to those wanting to make software to work in concert with EVE. This is accomplished through the use of the API and the static data dumps for the most part, and doesn't rely on creating an alternate use for what is essentially a bug reporting tool. The trouble with creating a product that has such an avid fan base of computer savvy people is that we end up with situations such as this, where what essentially arises is a feedback cycle. We have created and released EVE, the community then creates Program A. In turn we reanalyse our stance and change EVE. The community then creates Program B... ad infinitum. This is the situation we're always going to be in since the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable. We're midway through that cycle presently, waiting for the 'official' response from us with the next iteration of our software. What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. If they hadn't created a particular tool, the sheer size of the player base would make it inevitable that someone else would; look at the concurrent rise in supply and demand for killboards as an example of this. What's left for us to do is redesign the associated areas of impact and move forward from there. I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. We're very much aware of the situation and as I've said already, it's being dealt with. good post, wont shut up the teenage namecalling crap here though No YOU! sry just had to
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:54:00 - [166] Originally by: Cesar Malari Gunfleet is willing to take down the BACON website and the application if CCP asks us publicly to do so. So far, all I've seen are statements that it is frowned upon and that changes will be made in the future to make it not work. Fine. Nowhere have I seen a request to pull the application. If someone has seen such a request posted in public by CCP (now or in the future), I'd appreciate you bringing it to my attention so we can take action. uhm so you need to be smacked by your mother to get you to do the right thing? If you have been so honorable in your disclosure of this terrible program, nothing less than removing without being under deress would seem to be the course of action, at least this way the cheaters can get some time to get back to actually playing the game instead of the instant shock of the plug being pulled and one of your friends solo archons ratting getting ganked... just a thought
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:07:00 - [167] Originally by: Matrixcvd uhm so you need to be smacked by your mother to get you to do the right thing? If you have been so honorable in your disclosure of this terrible program, nothing less than removing without being under deress would seem to be the course of action, at least this way the cheaters can get some time to get back to actually playing the game instead of the instant shock of the plug being pulled and one of your friends solo archons ratting getting ganked... just a thought holy ****, bacon author is CCP's son?? who would've known it
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:07:00 - [168] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. I am really sincerely hoping here you have the ability to infer what people are trying to tell you. Read in between the lines with me now: Originally by: CCP Atropos Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that PLEASE we're TAKE particularly BACON pleased DOWN with. If you make it unavailable to users, you become accountable for your actions and then BACON is no longer a tool supported by you. Which is good in the eyes of the developers. It shows you are responsible and able to take accountability for your actions. Your software has literally polarized the EVE community and now multiple times you have had developers stating that they do not appreciate the fact that this software exists. Take that as a clue, and take your site down. Be very apologetic to those who use the software and say "If you want to continue using it, CCP is not going to stop you as they have clearly stated, but we are going to take action to prevent anyone further from acquiring it. Additionally we will not update the software." THAT shows some serious awesome and would get applause from me.
Jesum Amarr Warmongers	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:56:00 - [169] if it's allowed, but frowned upon, it will be used most likely by the future's best alliances. ___________ Jesum, CEO of Warmongers: Guns for hire.
Loyal Servant Caldari Wandering Stars Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:25:00 - [170] Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Cesar Malari Gunfleet is willing to take down the BACON website and the application if CCP asks us publicly to do so. So far, all I've seen are statements that it is frowned upon and that changes will be made in the future to make it not work. Fine. Nowhere have I seen a request to pull the application. If someone has seen such a request posted in public by CCP (now or in the future), I'd appreciate you bringing it to my attention so we can take action. uhm so you need to be smacked by your mother to get you to do the right thing? If you have been so honorable in your disclosure of this terrible program, nothing less than removing without being under deress would seem to be the course of action, at least this way the cheaters can get some time to get back to actually playing the game instead of the instant shock of the plug being pulled and one of your friends solo archons ratting getting ganked... just a thought Is hydra still ratting in capitals in vale? Meh, and they wrote an application so they can afk rat while watching tv and have their computer blurt out something so they can run over and warp away?
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:45:00 - [171] Atropos, I asked this in the other thread, and didn't get an answer, so hre goes... Will the changes to logserver also affect the information stored in machonet cache? Since the data is essentially stored in the same format, people will just recode their tools to look at the filesystem, instead of the logserver. Thx. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:47:00 - [172] I'm sure that macro ratters / ISK farmers use something like this nowdays, they log instantly when you enter the system. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:20:00 - [173] Originally by: NightmareX Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me Thread potential diminishes critically to null value at this point.
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:31:00 - [174] Originally by: Segge Bolled Originally by: NightmareX Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me Thread potential diminishes critically to null value at this point. Give it a rest hun, its too late. Devs said they are working on changing logserver and bacon will not be useful.
Latex Underwear	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:48:00 - [175] /signed
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:56:00 - [176] Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. BACON is what it is, and I don't think that there's ever been endorsement of a product that utilises the Logserver in such a fashion. I sincerely doubt that there will be an official call from us to cease BACON, since as has been said many times, it's not connected to EVE in any fashion, making detecting it tricky without creating some sort of invasive software trawl akin to Warden, and I'm sure that even those vehemently against BACON don't want that. Furthermore, BACON differs to other third party, community created tools such as EVEMon, EFT and Quickfit, because all of those are making use of resources that have been made available to specifically cater to those wanting to make software to work in concert with EVE. This is accomplished through the use of the API and the static data dumps for the most part, and doesn't rely on creating an alternate use for what is essentially a bug reporting tool. The trouble with creating a product that has such an avid fan base of computer savvy people is that we end up with situations such as this, where what essentially arises is a feedback cycle. We have created and released EVE, the community then creates Program A. In turn we reanalyse our stance and change EVE. The community then creates Program B... ad infinitum. This is the situation we're always going to be in since the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable. We're midway through that cycle presently, waiting for the 'official' response from us with the next iteration of our software. What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. If they hadn't created a particular tool, the sheer size of the player base would make it inevitable that someone else would; look at the concurrent rise in supply and demand for killboards as an example of this. What's left for us to do is redesign the associated areas of impact and move forward from there. I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. We're very much aware of the situation and as I've said already, it's being dealt with. Thank you for the clarification, Atropos. Whatever anyone else may think of us, we love playing EVE, and we've tried to be completely open, transparent and honest with both CCP and the community. Reading your response, I understand a bit more the no-man's-land we are in as developers, but quite honestly, I'll be posting in the Eve Technology forum asking for a formal set of guidelines. Even if our next several products rely on the API, as we've found in these threads, even if you, the developer, thinks you are doing all the right things... The community may not.
Sunbird Huy Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:17:00 - [177] nice post CCP Atropos. For Tri whiners...pfffffff... doesn't making 2000 alts to manage your CoS's moon chains count as macroing? nah...he just uses the isk to buy new underwear with it... TROLL FTW
Yuleth Gix	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:19:00 - [178] Haven't used BACON yet, but was planning to in 1 specific situation. Looking for wartargets in empire where we have sometimes upward of 500 people in local. I think this situation shows the limitation of the local channel. It would be nice to be able to sort the local channel or filter it in some way if you're going to take out bacon.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:56:00 - [179] Disclaimer: I do not endorse BACON in any way, shape, or form. I nor any of my corpmates use BACON. This statement does not reflect upon my corp, yadda yadda yadda. That said. I think BACON is a good thing for EVE. Yes, I know I'm probably crucified for this opinion, but meh. I look at BACON as being a good thing for the sole reason that it encourages innovation and new ideas for CCP to take a look at. Some things that have been done by a certain nameless Alliance in the past gave us the standings indicator in local (and by extension, in the overview as well). Vent and TS led to EVE-Voice. Cries for improved data access led to the API system being created, which in turn led to EVEMon and EFT (both wonderful programs). While BACON is reviled by many, and praised by some, one could argue that you could see some positives as a result of it. It now drives CCP's attention that perhaps there are additional features that can be introduced in the game that they normally would not have thought of before, changes and features that all players can use, that result in a better game experience. I for one would love to see some kind of implementation of BACON in the game (the idea of using sounds, your ears as a source of gathering intel, instead of just your eyes; only so much you can take in at once) as I think the core aspect of using sound is a highly innovative idea that CCP should consider taking a look at for future ideas/features.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:47:00 - [180] Originally by: Sunbird Huy nice post CCP Atropos. For Tri whiners...pfffffff... doesn't making 2000 alts to manage your CoS's moon chains count as macroing? nah...he just uses the isk to buy new underwear with it... TROLL FTW I have no idea what you are trying to say, but the naptrain is that way so go go go! enjoy moar failsoftware for people who like to cover their fail by bringin moar Originally by: Tobin Shalim I think BACON is a good thing for EVE. Good indication the apocalypse is coming and this game is going down the tubes Originally by: Tobin Shalim Yes, I know I'm probably crucified for this opinion Strong instincts with this one Originally by: Tobin Shalim I look at BACON as being a good thing for the sole reason that it encourages innovation and new ideas for CCP to take a look at. Aggreed, EFT great, Evemon awesome but they have no impact on what OTHER people are doing around you. Originally by: Tobin Shalim Some things that have been done by a certain nameless Alliance in the past gave us the standings indicator in local (and by extension, in the overview as well). Complete garbage diaper handout that wasà Cold harsh place? Moar like florida for the pampers crowd Originally by: Tobin Shalim It now drives CCP's attention that perhaps there are additional features that can be introduced in the game that they normally would not have thought of before. changes and features that all players can use, that result in a better game experience. Way wrong answer. Fixing UI issues, working on SOV/game mechanics that cause the client and servers to poo themselves should be top priority, not adding useless crap. ôGreat Dave, I canÆt actually fleet fight, but I made this awesomely cool chick and she can walk around stations pregnant!ö comes to my mind as the direction this is all going Originally by: Tobin Shalim I for one would love to see some kind of implementation of BACON in the game (the idea of using sounds, your ears as a source of gathering intel, instead of just your eyes; only so much you can take in at once) as I think the core aspect of using sound is a highly innovative idea that CCP should consider taking a look at for future ideas/features. My only RP and flame me at will cause I hate RL to video BS, but there AINT NO SOUND IN SPACE ! TBH local should just go away all together, then if I want to let you know your arse is gonna get ganked, you can have the Burgerking Guy go ôDING, FRIES ARE DONEö everytime a target comes into system, cause thatÆs about as much intelligence that takes.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.05.05 18:51:00 - [181] Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Tobin Shalim I think BACON is a good thing for EVE. Good indication the apocalypse is coming and this game is going down the tubes Why? Because I suggest that the fact that third parties are developing programs/add-ons that add to the functionality of EVE and thus might give the Devs ideas to put in the game themselves? I only said it's good in that it fosters new ideas, not in the actual running of the program itself. Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Tobin Shalim I look at BACON as being a good thing for the sole reason that it encourages innovation and new ideas for CCP to take a look at. Aggreed, EFT great, Evemon awesome but they have no impact on what OTHER people are doing around you. Granted and true. Again, I disagree with BACON in principle, but encouraging new ideas should NEVER be frowned upon by any software developer be it in gaming, or Microsoft. IF BACON were to result in a fresh idea by someone at CCP for a cool game feature down the road, then I have to say that it did do some good. Heck, even if (after CCP's own admission that they know that major alliances have their own programs) it causes CCP to stop other programs from working, it was a good thing. No one group in EVE should have an advantage over another, period. Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Tobin Shalim Some things that have been done by a certain nameless Alliance in the past gave us the standings indicator in local (and by extension, in the overview as well). Complete garbage diaper handout that wasà Cold harsh place? Moar like florida for the pampers crowd What was, CCP putting in the standings display? Personally it's a good thing, especially if you're in Empire and you happen to run into a war target. How else are you going to know that he's a hostile unless you're able to see the immediate display of that information? Personally I think that's a good feature, even if on the flipside it allows said war target to see you in local and either dock or logoffski. Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Tobin Shalim It now drives CCP's attention that perhaps there are additional features that can be introduced in the game that they normally would not have thought of before. changes and features that all players can use, that result in a better game experience. Way wrong answer. Fixing UI issues, working on SOV/game mechanics that cause the client and servers to poo themselves should be top priority, not adding useless crap. ôGreat Dave, I canÆt actually fleet fight, but I made this awesomely cool chick and she can walk around stations pregnant!ö comes to my mind as the direction this is all going Haven't you read the Dev blogs before? They have seperate groups that work solely on adding new content/features. Brainstorming at my job is thus: 10 ideas are put out. 5 are rejected outright. The other 5 are seriously looked at and you maybe get 2-3. Those are then put through feasibility studies/tests to see if any are viable. If they are, we impliement them (with a shorter time to that given the past study). I would rather CCP have the ideas than not. Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Tobin Shalim I for one would love to see some kind of implementation of BACON in the game (the idea of using sounds, your ears as a source of gathering intel, instead of just your eyes; only so much you can take in at once) as I think the core aspect of using sound is a highly innovative idea that CCP should consider taking a look at for future ideas/features. My only RP and flame me at will cause I hate RL to video BS, but there AINT NO SOUND IN SPACE ! What about the sound effects that exist when missiles launch/lasers fire/you move? Sound is already there, this would merely take the current application of sound to a new level with more that you actually hear in terms of warning tones.
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:09:00 - [182] Originally by: Tobin Shalim What about the sound effects that exist when missiles launch/lasers fire/you move? Sound is already there, this would merely take the current application of sound to a new level with more that you actually hear in terms of warning tones. EVE has sound?
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:19:00 - [183] Originally by: Tobin Shalim Haven't you read the Dev blogs before? They have seperate groups that work solely on adding new content/features. Brainstorming at my job is thus: 10 ideas are put out. 5 are rejected outright. The other 5 are seriously looked at and you maybe get 2-3. Those are then put through feasibility studies/tests to see if any are viable. If they are, we impliement them (with a shorter time to that given the past study). I would rather CCP have the ideas than not. There is a difference between adding new content(missions, ships, modules) and adding new features(standings indicator in local, bacon like audio warning system). Adding more contents is just creating a database entry of that module/ship/mission. But adding a new feature requires programming those features into eve client/server. So to add new features like bacon, ccp programmers would have to put their time into implementing it. So less time to fix other programming related issues. Originally by: Tobin Shalim I look at BACON as being a good thing for the sole reason that it encourages innovation and new ideas for CCP to take a look at. Some things that have been done by a certain nameless Alliance in the past gave us the standings indicator in local (and by extension, in the overview as well). Vent and TS led to EVE-Voice. Cries for improved data access led to the API system being created, which in turn led to EVEMon and EFT (both wonderful programs). Yes, BACON is going to encourage innovation. Macros would be easier to develop with the help of bacon. More macros will be developed. And more people will start using macro. In the end, EvE will become just like lineage2. Official servers filled with macros and bots.
Lady Sheiba	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:24:00 - [184] Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: Tobin Shalim What about the sound effects that exist when missiles launch/lasers fire/you move? Sound is already there, this would merely take the current application of sound to a new level with more that you actually hear in terms of warning tones. EVE has sound? No but Bacon does \o/ I think Bacon is great for finding war targets in Empire, specially if your docked with a couple of hundred in local and browsing the forums or some such. It is quite handy as all tools are and make the game less hassle which is good, why some Dev says it's playing afk it beyond me, if you are afk then you won't hear the sound now will you. Right now you have a choice, you either watch local like some demented ****** or you take it easy and don't bother in which case you might get surprised and killed. Now I don't know about the rest of you but looking at local all the time is not my idea of fun, so bacon playing a sound makes perfect sense and makes the game more enjoyable in that aspect. If local stays then bacon should stay, either both go or none go. I don't care which. But if people in CCP or some 1337 pvper thinks staring at local like a mental patient for hours on end to see if a target comes in makes you skilled, I'm sorry but it just makes you sad.
shiro kiu	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:42:00 - [185] Originally by: Lady Sheiba Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: Tobin Shalim What about the sound effects that exist when missiles launch/lasers fire/you move? Sound is already there, this would merely take the current application of sound to a new level with more that you actually hear in terms of warning tones. EVE has sound? No but Bacon does \o/ I think Bacon is great for finding war targets in Empire, specially if your docked with a couple of hundred in local and browsing the forums or some such. It is quite handy as all tools are and make the game less hassle which is good, why some Dev says it's playing afk it beyond me, if you are afk then you won't hear the sound now will you. Right now you have a choice, you either watch local like some demented ****** or you take it easy and don't bother in which case you might get surprised and killed. Now I don't know about the rest of you but looking at local all the time is not my idea of fun, so bacon playing a sound makes perfect sense and makes the game more enjoyable in that aspect. If local stays then bacon should stay, either both go or none go. I don't care which. But if people in CCP or some 1337 pvper thinks staring at local like a mental patient for hours on end to see if a target comes in makes you skilled, I'm sorry but it just makes you sad. Would you like a tissue? Why would you need another program to tell you that a war target in local if you are not afk? And I am sure it would be a lot more fun when you targets log off automatically with the help of bacon.
Nicole KholdStare Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:15:00 - [186] Quote: Why would you need another program to tell you that a war target in local if you are not afk? Because of the reason he stated?
Simen123 modro CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:24:00 - [187] popular topic this one ain't it? bacon is easily made but sours the taste if u get my drift? one of the things with eve is that you have to put in an effort to actually be good at it, so if we get too much BACON then we'll see afk people everywhere, what does that do to those not afk and not using BACON? BACON might not be such a trouble now, but if its allowed we'll soon see so many using BACON to get an edge with afk playing that EVE will lose its meaning, i for once like feeling like i've acomplished something like when i got my first solo-kill. Think about what made you fall in love with EVE, and then think about what BACON most likely will do to that in the future and that new players might not get the same joy as you did when you for example got your first solo-kill or did something that really impressed yourself
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:44:00 - [188] Originally by: Reuser Thank you for the clarification, Atropos. Whatever anyone else may think of us, we love playing EVE, and we've tried to be completely open, transparent and honest with both CCP and the community. Reading your response, I understand a bit more the no-man's-land we are in as developers, but quite honestly, I'll be posting in the Eve Technology forum asking for a formal set of guidelines. Even if our next several products rely on the API, as we've found in these threads, even if you, the developer, thinks you are doing all the right things... The community may not. For the sake of civility, I will focus on your third paragraph. If you focus exclusively on developing applications that use the third party API CCP has created, then I will have no problem with what you create. After all, as has been stated several times, that's what those programming hooks are for - creating third party applications.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:27:00 - [189] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 05/05/2008 22:27:55 First of all, I'd like to comment on how terrible the OP is here - "this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me" is the single most pathetic statement I've read online in a lot of years, and it's not for lack of looking. Originally by: CCP Atropos What I've said, is basically a restatement of what Lead GM Grimmi said in his initial post. BACON is making use of the Logserver in a way that was never intended. Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that we're particularly pleased with. As Lead GM Grimmi said "we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this". The Logserver was meant to help solve bugs, not give anyone a viable or quantifiable ingame advantage. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. I'd love to say that EVE should be all that we need, but as has happened in the past, as players find external third party tools that they deem invaluble, such as TeamSpeak and Ventrillo, we deal with them in kind, as with EVE Voice. Each is dealt with based on the merits of the case, at the time. BACON and any similar tools will be dealt with as we see fit, in a manner we hope will resolve the situation satisfactorily. This should close the matter, I hope, but if you wish to continue constructive discussion on the matter I'll be keeping my eye on this. Additionally, please stop making all these silly little threads on the same topic. It's a waste of everyone's time when they can be consolidated into one main thread. I really don't see what the issue is here. We're talking about a freely available program that simplifies collection of data the player already has access to. It's not letting you cheat, it's not giving you access to data that's supposed to be hidden, it's just making it so that you don't have to glance at local as often as you would otherwise. If CCP ever decides to make local an optional channel, then I'd agree that this is unfair, but until they do it's merely a data collection tool, which puts it in the same category as EveMon so far as I'm concerned. Frankly, this exactly what's supposed to happen when a large group of people comes across an annoyance - somebody decides it's annoying enough to be worth hacking up some code, tossing up a link, and then the annoyance is gone. It's the same philosophy as Linux, Wikipedia, evolutionary biology, or the entire capitalist system of economics - broad-based attempts at a solution, with the best filtering to the top. And judging by the success of those four projects, I'm going to say that's a pretty good methodology, not get all whiny just because I didn't think of how some data dumps would get used. You should be encouraging the user base to solve problems with your software - we want to do it, we'll do it for free, and 200,000 of us will come up with far better solutions than 200 of you. "Not made here" syndrome is a reaction I'd associate with a particularly stunted government bureaucracy, not a small technology company - you have no excuse for this level of parochialism and stupidity. You should be giving us all the tools you possibly can, and then sitting back and waiting for us to do all the little stuff so you don't have to. We can't implement Trinity graphics or factional warfare - only the dev team can do that - but we can implement UI fixes like BACON. Get off your high horses and let us.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:39:00 - [190] Edited by: NightmareX on 05/05/2008 22:45:43 The op that is me have made some very good reasons on why BACON is against some rules and that, and why it HAVE to stop. And the dev have confirmed that i'm right about what i'm saying to. So why i'am such a terrible poster then? And the reason i said that there should only be posts from those who agree on me is because if i didn't had done that, this topic would most likely end up in a massive flame fest. No matter on how you are looking at BACON, it's decleared as cheat and as a tool that takes an advantage over other players. END OF STORY.
Kiviar Caldari Vice-Presidential Action Rangers	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:45:00 - [191] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I really don't see what the issue is here. We're talking about a freely available program that simplifies collection of data the player already has access to. It's not letting you cheat, it's not giving you access to data that's supposed to be hidden, it's just making it so that you don't have to glance at local as often as you would otherwise. If CCP ever decides to make local an optional channel, then I'd agree that this is unfair, but until they do it's merely a data collection tool, which puts it in the same category as EveMon so far as I'm concerned. I agree completely as I see it all BACON has done is taken a part of eve that was tedious and time consuming and automated it, giving me more time to actually have fun instead of staring at a little chat box sifting through portraits for hours on end. ---
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:47:00 - [192] Originally by: Kiviar Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I really don't see what the issue is here. We're talking about a freely available program that simplifies collection of data the player already has access to. It's not letting you cheat, it's not giving you access to data that's supposed to be hidden, it's just making it so that you don't have to glance at local as often as you would otherwise. If CCP ever decides to make local an optional channel, then I'd agree that this is unfair, but until they do it's merely a data collection tool, which puts it in the same category as EveMon so far as I'm concerned. I agree completely as I see it all BACON has done is taken a part of eve that was tedious and time consuming and automated it, giving me more time to actually have fun instead of staring at a little chat box sifting through portraits for hours on end. Mineing = a part of eve that is tedious and time consuming. CCP can I please have a mining bacon ? Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
KarGard	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:48:00 - [193] Originally by: NightmareX No matter on how you are looking at BACON, it's decleared as cheat and as a tool that takes an advantage over other players. END OF STORY. That is not at all what has been stated.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:50:00 - [194] Originally by: KarGard Originally by: NightmareX No matter on how you are looking at BACON, it's decleared as cheat and as a tool that takes an advantage over other players. END OF STORY. That is not at all what has been stated. So taking advantage over other players is not cheat?
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:50:00 - [195] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 05/05/2008 22:27:55 First of all, I'd like to comment on how terrible the OP is here - "this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me" is the single most pathetic statement I've read online in a lot of years, and it's not for lack of looking. Because this is not a discussion thread. There are tons of other threads for you to discuss. This is a petition thread. If you dont agree you have nothing to post here. Thats why he said "this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me". And EvE is not linux. They are not gonna let you write "UI Fixes" using data which you shouldnt be using. Logserver is for devs to debug the client. They gave us the program because they want us to send debug info when you encounter a bug. Not use that program to extract data from the client and write a program which promotes AFK game play. If you want to develop applications for EvE, you have eve api. Dont try to use tuxy to save your bacon. Nothing is going to save your bacon.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:02:00 - [196] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 05/05/2008 22:45:43 The op that is me have made some very good reasons on why BACON is against some rules and that, and why it HAVE to stop. And the dev have confirmed that i'm right about what i'm saying to. So why i'am such a terrible poster then? And the reason i said that there should only be posts from those who agree on me is because if i didn't had done that, this topic would most likely end up in a massive flame fest. No matter on how you are looking at BACON, it's decleared as cheat and as a tool that takes an advantage over other players. END OF STORY. No, you made a few long-winded rambles about how you don't like it. I agree, you clearly don't like it. That doesn't mean you're right, or even that your points are good, it just means that you're passionate on the topic. And as much as I encourage people to be passionate about things, you've picked a pretty bad target for it. And so far as I'm looking at Bacon, the only thing it's been declared is an annoyance, something the devs would prefer not to have. If it was a cheat, they'd be sending out ban warnings through in-game news, like they do any other time they declare something an exploit before patching it, not grumbling on the forums. It's not cheating, and it's not an unfair advantage over anybody except the blind. It's Local with sound effects - pardon me if I don't get up in arms over third-party software recreating existing functionality with a better interface. Originally by: cyt0matrix Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 05/05/2008 22:27:55 First of all, I'd like to comment on how terrible the OP is here - "this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me" is the single most pathetic statement I've read online in a lot of years, and it's not for lack of looking. Because this is not a discussion thread. There are tons of other threads for you to discuss. This is a petition thread. If you dont agree you have nothing to post here. Thats why he said "this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me". And EvE is not linux. They are not gonna let you write "UI Fixes" using data which you shouldnt be using. Logserver is for devs to debug the client. They gave us the program because they want us to send debug info when you encounter a bug. Not use that program to extract data from the client and write a program which promotes AFK game play. If you want to develop applications for EvE, you have eve api. Dont try to use tuxy to save your bacon. Nothing is going to save your bacon. Tell you what - when it becomes impossible to get the same data(i.e., who is in local) from in game, I'll be right beside you opposing those who get it from out of game. Until then, it's a data analysis tool like EveMon as far as I'm concerned. Just because the devs are schizophrenic on the topic of such tools doesn't mean I have to be.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:06:00 - [197] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto No, you made a few long-winded rambles about how you don't like it. I'm not alone in not liking BACON FYI. There is a reason why we don't like it.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:10:00 - [198] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto No, you made a few long-winded rambles about how you don't like it. I'm not alone in not liking BACON FYI. There is a reason why we don't like it. Agreed, on both counts. There are others who think like you do, and given that I'm not generally a believer in mass insanity as an explanation for my opponents, I'll concede that you have reasons for your opinions. Thing is, that doesn't make you right, it just makes you wrong with a sense of purpose.
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:17:00 - [199] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto And so far as I'm looking at Bacon, the only thing it's been declared is an annoyance, something the devs would prefer not to have. If it was a cheat, they'd be sending out ban warnings through in-game news, like they do any other time they declare something an exploit before patching it, not grumbling on the forums. It's not cheating, and it's not an unfair advantage over anybody except the blind. It's Local with sound effects - pardon me if I don't get up in arms over third-party software recreating existing functionality with a better interface. They havnt banned it because its almost impossible for then to detect and prove that you are using it, without implementing warden like software. Atropos clearly said that. Thats why they are not banning it. Instead they are changing logserver. Originally by: Hershel Yamamoto Tell you what - when it becomes impossible to get the same data(i.e., who is in local) from in game, I'll be right beside you opposing those who get it from out of game. Until then, it's a data analysis tool like EveMon as far as I'm concerned. Just because the devs are schizophrenic on the topic of such tools doesn't mean I have to be. Its not like EveMon. Bacon is using data which you are not supposed to use. With bacon you dont have to look at local. You can merrily mine while you are war decced. As soon as a hostile enters the local, bacon will alert you, and you can log off or dock. Until you are alerted you dont have to pay attention to the game. And if you add simple macros here and there, you can mine safely during war. Tell me how thats good for the game? CCP dont encourage afk playing.
Beerkat Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:26:00 - [200] Why not just try beggin' strips instead? I hear that doesn't access the log server at all and dogs can't tell the difference
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:26:00 - [201] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto No, you made a few long-winded rambles about how you don't like it. I'm not alone in not liking BACON FYI. There is a reason why we don't like it. Agreed, on both counts. There are others who think like you do, and given that I'm not generally a believer in mass insanity as an explanation for my opponents, I'll concede that you have reasons for your opinions. Thing is, that doesn't make you right, it just makes you wrong with a sense of purpose. Same could be said about you. Just because you and your lil buddies think you are right, doesnt make you right.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:36:00 - [202] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 05/05/2008 23:42:26 Originally by: cyt0matrix They havnt banned it because its almost impossible for then to detect and prove that you are using it, without implementing warden like software. Atropos clearly said that. Thats why they are not banning it. Instead they are changing logserver. They've banned things before that they've had no way to enforce. I'm thinking specifically of POS bowling(from what I remember reading in the announcement of it being an exploit, they basically acknowledged that they probably couldn't enforce it), using a Black Ops jump to escape Concord(if they rely on player complaints, there's plenty of situations where Concord is triggered with no other players around, or where the player won't know enough to file a petition), or isk selling(which, while nominally enforced, is hardly a problem that's gone away). If they actually thought it was cheating, they'd tell Gunfleet to take down the program, which Gunfleet has said repeatedly that they'll do on request, declare it an exploit to scare people off, and then fix it at the next patch. Originally by: cyt0matrix Its not like EveMon. Bacon is using data which you are not supposed to use. With bacon you dont have to look at local. You can merrily mine while you are war decced. As soon as a hostile enters the local, bacon will alert you, and you can log off or dock. Until you are alerted you dont have to pay attention to the game. And if you add simple macros here and there, you can mine safely during war. Tell me how thats good for the game? CCP dont encourage afk playing. If you're not supposed to use the data, then they should take out local. Until they do that(and I'm not saying that they should, just that they could), they've got exactly zero moral high ground to complain. And until you stop talking about people doing things that are clearly against the EULA, like macroing, you've got exactly zero high ground of any variety for your arguments - "banned" and "not banned" are pretty clearly distinct. Besides, any competent macro-maker could just scan for hostiles using screen caps of local, with no need for logfiles or BACON. Just because Gunfleet came up with a better UI than CCP did doesn't mean any cheating is happening. Originally by: cyt0matrix Same could be said about you. Just because you and your lil buddies think you are right, doesnt make you right. Of course not - simply having an opinion is not sufficient to assure correctness. That's what debate is all about, after all. The reason I'm right is that this is a program that improves the game without breaking any of the official rules, or any of the unofficial codes I see in place, and as such I can see no valid reason to eliminate it.
Sunbird Huy Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:49:00 - [203] "Good indication the apocalypse is coming and this game is going down the tubes" HAHAHAHHAHA I knew there was something prophetic about you guys...lmfao...really. Naptrain? that what u consider the NC to be? one guy has made a real nice post in the thread about the yesterday's DORM's Nyx kill... Really well explained. Basically, many small alliances working together. On the other hand, Trisurg is a second kind of that - small pets get swallowed by their patrons and thus u get those "poor, lonely, but brave" alliances *****ing about naptrains...REALLY NOW... And if the apocalypse is coming for EVE, better go hide in some underground bunker with good bandwith and watch the community created videos of the apocalypse happening... what Gunfleet have done might be the most decent thing any of us have done recently, they have put the LOGSERVER usage topic all around the forums, how can u be sure it was not just a conscious sacrifice of a good thing just so that real EXPLOITERS like macro morons get hit by the possible reaction from CCP? BACON, btw, does not give a detailed location of a person entering the local, just gives an audio announcement of that person entering the system. BACON is in open for everyone, not just Hydra and other NC alliances. As far as I am concerned, I'd remove LOCAL altogether, and make improvements to the ship's on-board scanner. Make the use of it simpler, maybe even set it as a PASSIVE part of the background, like a part of HUD that is already open. Or perhaps a small scrollbar in the bottom of your screen that would be used for setting the angle of your scanner and give the results in something like the "watch list" for the fleet members? second thing- REDUCE THE RANGE OF ON-BOARD SCANNERS, A LOT! btw, NightmareX, Quam Singulari is Crax McGee's corp, right? Not only he was not good in Hydra(and he had his chance) but as I read in one of Tri's internal dispute threads(on tri forums, off course, courtesy of good people called spies...LOL), u're the laughing stock for TRI... Maw your own lawn first, then go pick bananas from the jungle...
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:50:00 - [204] Face it already guys, BACON is decleared dead soon anyways, no point by TRYING to save it by all this jabba jibba talk. The dev have said it all, and nothing more is needed to be said.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:53:00 - [205] Edited by: NightmareX on 05/05/2008 23:54:19 Originally by: Sunbird Huy btw, NightmareX, Quam Singulari is Crax McGee's corp, right? Yes he's in Quam atm, but it's not his corp. But you seems to be very desperate now since you KNOW BACON will soon die.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:05:00 - [206] Originally by: NightmareX Face it already guys, BACON is decleared dead soon anyways, no point by TRYING to save it by all this jabba jibba talk. The dev have said it all, and nothing more is needed to be said. Normally I like civilized discourse, but this is just too good an opportunity for ad hominem to pass up. ahem "Jabba jibba"? Seriously, how much of a cretin are you? If you're going to quote Mr. T, at least have the decency to do it right, foo'! (Warning: NSFW language)
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:16:00 - [207] Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 00:24:17 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: NightmareX Face it already guys, BACON is decleared dead soon anyways, no point by TRYING to save it by all this jabba jibba talk. The dev have said it all, and nothing more is needed to be said. Normally I like civilized discourse, but this is just too good an opportunity for ad hominem to pass up. ahem "Jabba jibba"? Seriously, how much of a cretin are you? If you're going to quote Mr. T, at least have the decency to do it right, foo'! (Warning: NSFW language) Ok if you really want to be that way. By jabba jibba talk i meant all of this crap posting why BACON is good for EVE. Clear enough for you? Just stop to defend BACON already, you are just making you look much much worser than you are by trying to defend it.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:26:00 - [208] /signed I agree with OP 100% Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:27:00 - [209] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: NightmareX Face it already guys, BACON is decleared dead soon anyways, no point by TRYING to save it by all this jabba jibba talk. The dev have said it all, and nothing more is needed to be said. Normally I like civilized discourse, but this is just too good an opportunity for ad hominem to pass up. ahem "Jabba jibba"? Seriously, how much of a cretin are you? If you're going to quote Mr. T, at least have the decency to do it right, foo'! (Warning: NSFW language) Ok if you really want to be that way. By jabba jibba talk i meant all of this crap posting why BACON is good for EVE. Clear enough for you? I'm well aware of what you meant - you threw out a groundless insult at a broad swath of players who are, with the exception of Tatoed Goat, generally trying to have a sensible discussion here. Seeing as how feeding the troll was starting to look futile, and you made a fantastically stupid misuse of language that gave me an opening, I just decided to insult you instead. It's easier, and given that your posts are everything that's wrong with internet debate anyways, it looked to be about as effective. But seriously man, "jabba jibba"? Don't invoke Mr. T unless you know how to do it right. You'll just make a foo' of yourself.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:30:00 - [210] Well if the dev reply on page 4 and 6 is not clear enough for you guys, then you can get out of this topic, please, because you simply don't understand what have been said by the dev and others in the topic, so you wont listen anyways.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:33:00 - [211] Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: Kiviar Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I really don't see what the issue is here. We're talking about a freely available program that simplifies collection of data the player already has access to. It's not letting you cheat, it's not giving you access to data that's supposed to be hidden, it's just making it so that you don't have to glance at local as often as you would otherwise. If CCP ever decides to make local an optional channel, then I'd agree that this is unfair, but until they do it's merely a data collection tool, which puts it in the same category as EveMon so far as I'm concerned. I agree completely as I see it all BACON has done is taken a part of eve that was tedious and time consuming and automated it, giving me more time to actually have fun instead of staring at a little chat box sifting through portraits for hours on end. Mineing = a part of eve that is tedious and time consuming. CCP can I please have a mining bacon ? Sure - if you want to put together an application that plays a sound whenever a new asteroid belt enters local, feel free.
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:36:00 - [212] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Sure - if you want to put together an application that plays a sound whenever a new asteroid belt enters local, feel free. lol
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:36:00 - [213] Originally by: NightmareX Well if the dev reply on page 4 and 6 is not clear enough for you guys, then you can get out of this topic, please, because you simply don't understand what have been said by the dev and others in the topic, so you wont listen anyways. Actually, they aren't terribly clear at all. Could you tell me what was settled, oh king of jurisprudence?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:38:00 - [214] While you're thinking that question through, let's think about the below, from the other thread... 1. Given: Instant communication is possible in the EVE universe. Support: You can talk to your mates in Syndicate when you're in Delve, instantly. Evemail, Voice comms, etc. See: http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/ 2. Given: The EVE interface gives feedback on events via sound. Support: Warp scram sounds, jump gate sounds, uncloaking sounds, enemy guns firing, etc. For the technical, there is no way that you can hear the enemy guns in space. That is a synthesized sound by Aura/your crew/something. 3. Given: EVE technology is FAR, FAR in advance of our current Terran technology. By several orders of magnitude, at least. Support: Self evident. 4. Given: EVE stargates are ancient, pre-Jovian technology reproduced by the four races. Support: http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_02.asp 5. Given: EVE's computer science is at least as advanced as our own. Support: Working technology based on quantum computing, region wide markets, etc. 6. Given: Local channel exists. There is an event when a new starship joins local. Support: Self evident. 7. Given: Ships have an advanced on board computer, Aura. Source: EVE tutorial. I think we can all agree that these are the facts about the EVE universe we inhabit. Given these facts, one cannot refute that the potential exists, within the EVE universe to duplicate BACON. Given the military competition between the four races, and the consequences of failing to develop a Threat Warning System, it is extremely, extremely improbable that the TWS did NOT evolve in EVE. Discuss.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:39:00 - [215] Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 00:39:57 Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX Well if the dev reply on page 4 and 6 is not clear enough for you guys, then you can get out of this topic, please, because you simply don't understand what have been said by the dev and others in the topic, so you wont listen anyways. Actually, they aren't terribly clear at all. Could you tell me what was settled, oh king of jurisprudence? Reuser, please don't make you look like an idiot by saying that. CCP Atropos said exactly how they was feeling and thinking about BACON there. I don't think they couldn't have had been any more clear on what he said there.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:41:00 - [216] First sentence, last post by CCP Atropos: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:42:00 - [217] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 06/05/2008 00:45:54 Originally by: NightmareX Well if the dev reply on page 4 and 6 is not clear enough for you guys, then you can get out of this topic, please, because you simply don't understand what have been said by the dev and others in the topic, so you wont listen anyways. I understand exactly what's been said - they don't think that their information tools are being used in the right way, and as such they find BACON to be naughty. If you'll recall, my first post in this thread was taking the dev who posted those comments you refer to to task for those opinions. My entire point here is that BACON opponents - dev and non-dev alike - have a fundamental misconception about the proper place of third-party tools in enhancing a large-community endeavour like Eve. And you haven't said anything thus far either to change my mind, or to convince me that there's any possible chance of you doing so in future. I'll stick around until I get bored, on the off chance I'm wrong, but it will be quite the surprise if I am. Originally by: Reuser While you're thinking that question through, let's think about the below, from the other thread... 1. Given: Instant communication is possible in the EVE universe. Support: You can talk to your mates in Syndicate when you're in Delve, instantly. Evemail, Voice comms, etc. See: http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/ 2. Given: The EVE interface gives feedback on events via sound. Support: Warp scram sounds, jump gate sounds, uncloaking sounds, enemy guns firing, etc. For the technical, there is no way that you can hear the enemy guns in space. That is a synthesized sound by Aura/your crew/something. 3. Given: EVE technology is FAR, FAR in advance of our current Terran technology. By several orders of magnitude, at least. Support: Self evident. 4. Given: EVE stargates are ancient, pre-Jovian technology reproduced by the four races. Support: http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_02.asp 5. Given: EVE's computer science is at least as advanced as our own. Support: Working technology based on quantum computing, region wide markets, etc. 6. Given: Local channel exists. There is an event when a new starship joins local. Support: Self evident. 7. Given: Ships have an advanced on board computer, Aura. Source: EVE tutorial. I think we can all agree that these are the facts about the EVE universe we inhabit. Given these facts, one cannot refute that the potential exists, within the EVE universe to duplicate BACON. Given the military competition between the four races, and the consequences of failing to develop a Threat Warning System, it is extremely, extremely improbable that the TWS did NOT evolve in EVE. Discuss. Sounds right to me. If a community of 200,000 players has developed this - and, if you buy the comments earlier on this thread, has done so several times - the in-game universe of untold billions of people would probably do the same. It doesn't take 30 Int to realize the value of an early warning system.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:45:00 - [218] Originally by: Reuser While you're thinking that question through, let's think about the below, from the other thread... 1. Given: Instant communication is possible in the EVE universe. Support: You can talk to your mates in Syndicate when you're in Delve, instantly. Evemail, Voice comms, etc. See: http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/ 2. Given: The EVE interface gives feedback on events via sound. Support: Warp scram sounds, jump gate sounds, uncloaking sounds, enemy guns firing, etc. For the technical, there is no way that you can hear the enemy guns in space. That is a synthesized sound by Aura/your crew/something. 3. Given: EVE technology is FAR, FAR in advance of our current Terran technology. By several orders of magnitude, at least. Support: Self evident. 4. Given: EVE stargates are ancient, pre-Jovian technology reproduced by the four races. Support: http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_02.asp 5. Given: EVE's computer science is at least as advanced as our own. Support: Working technology based on quantum computing, region wide markets, etc. 6. Given: Local channel exists. There is an event when a new starship joins local. Support: Self evident. 7. Given: Ships have an advanced on board computer, Aura. Source: EVE tutorial. I think we can all agree that these are the facts about the EVE universe we inhabit. Given these facts, one cannot refute that the potential exists, within the EVE universe to duplicate BACON. Given the military competition between the four races, and the consequences of failing to develop a Threat Warning System, it is extremely, extremely improbable that the TWS did NOT evolve in EVE. Discuss. Uh, wow, just wow. What the hell does that have to do with BACON? BACON IS A CHEAT SOFTWARE THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH EVE. All of the points above here Reuser is about something that IS ingame and that is something totally different from what this topic is about.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:52:00 - [219] Edited by: Reuser on 06/05/2008 00:53:36 Originally by: NightmareX Reuser, please don't make you look like an idiot by saying that. CCP Atropos said exactly how they was feeling and thinking about BACON there. I don't think they couldn't have had been any more clear on what he said there. Answer my question... Have you read CCP Atropos' comment? First sentence: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. Stop reading what you want to read and start reading. (Edit for missing ')
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:56:00 - [220] Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 00:58:32 Originally by: Reuser Edited by: Reuser on 06/05/2008 00:53:36 Originally by: NightmareX Reuser, please don't make you look like an idiot by saying that. CCP Atropos said exactly how they was feeling and thinking about BACON there. I don't think they couldn't have had been any more clear on what he said there. Answer my question... Have you read CCP Atropos' comment? First sentence: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. I don't think you didn't understand what he did mean by that. He is talking about the BACON project. He's basicly talking about why they can't do anything to stop the actually BACON project. But do still continue to flame me or try to defend BACON, you wont get ANY way with it anyways.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:58:00 - [221] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Reuser Answer my question... Have you read CCP Atropos' comment? First sentence: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. I don't think you didn't understand what he did mean by that. There is no way to misunderstand that. Maybe for you - yes. For a logical, functioning human, no.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:00:00 - [222] What do these two quotes mean to you, NightmareX? Originally by: "CCP Atropos" What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:01:00 - [223] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 00:58:32 I don't think you didn't understand what he did mean by that. He is talking about the BACON project. He's basicly talking about why they can't do anything to stop the actually BACON project. But do still continue to flame me or try to defend BACON, you wont get ANY way with it anyways. Fifth edit there, man.... Keep it up. Either answer my valid questions, or cede the points.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:02:00 - [224] Then tell me why CCP is changing the Logserver?, does they do it because they think it's fun? No, they do it for a REASON.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:10:00 - [225] Originally by: NightmareX Then tell me why CCP is changing the Logserver?, does they do it because they think it's fun? No, they do it for a REASON. Answer all of my questions above, and I will give you a full and honest assessment of my opinion. Either that, or cede my points.
cyt0matrix Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:21:00 - [226] Originally by: Reuser What do these two quotes mean to you, NightmareX? Originally by: "CCP Atropos" What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. That they are sick of you whining and us *****ing about bacon. Bacon is getting bbqed. End of discussion.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:28:00 - [227] Originally by: cyt0matrix That they are sick of you whining and us *****ing about bacon. Bacon is getting bbqed. End of discussion. Heh! AMEN!
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:48:00 - [228] That being said, on to making fun of people... NightmareX? Are you ready to respond to any of my last 5 posts? Would you like to respond to my thought experiment? Do you know what a thought experiment is?
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:49:00 - [229] Reuser I swear to God, you're either just an idiot or you don't care about crapping on CCP. I'm gonna quote my own post because apparently you blew right by it. Originally by: Reuser Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. I am really sincerely hoping here you have the ability to infer what people are trying to tell you. Read in between the lines with me now: Originally by: CCP Atropos Whilst it may not be a definative violation of the EULA and TOS, that doesn't mean it's something that PLEASE we're TAKE particularly BACON pleased DOWN with. If you make it unavailable to users, you become accountable for your actions and then BACON is no longer a tool supported by you. Which is good in the eyes of the developers. It shows you are responsible and able to take accountability for your actions. Your software has literally polarized the EVE community and now multiple times you have had developers stating that they do not appreciate the fact that this software exists. Take that as a clue, and take your site down. Be very apologetic to those who use the software and say "If you want to continue using it, CCP is not going to stop you as they have clearly stated, but we are going to take action to prevent anyone further from acquiring it. Additionally we will not update the software." THAT shows some serious awesome and would get applause from me. <------- I'm being serious. Though they said it is neither a condemnation nor an endorsement, use your head man. CCP is trying to subtly tell you and the whole community they don't appreciate their tools being used in a way they weren't meant to be used. Let's imagine you're a craftsman, and I am a developer. I am giving you a bunch of 2x4s and I tell you these boards to build a house out of. Instead, you build chairs with them. Am I going to be terribly happy with you? Probably not. Even though you made some great looking chairs out of those I am going to probably fire you. Though CCP has no intent to "fire" their community members, I will say this is a slap on the hand and if you want to keep your image up I suggest you take it down.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:55:00 - [230] Originally by: Reuser That being said, on to making fun of people... NightmareX? Are you ready to respond to any of my last 5 posts? Would you like to respond to my thought experiment? Do you know what a thought experiment is? No, because they are already been answered. Maybe not by me, but maybe by some others here in this topic.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:59:00 - [231] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Reuser That being said, on to making fun of people... NightmareX? Are you ready to respond to any of my last 5 posts? Would you like to respond to my thought experiment? Do you know what a thought experiment is? No, because they are already been answered. Maybe not by me, but maybe by some others here in this topic. That's EXACTLY what I expected. Have fun with the trolling, NightmareX.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:59:00 - [232] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 06/05/2008 02:00:24 Originally by: NightmareX And yet you don't respect CCP. Yes it naughty, why do you think they are saying it's naughty? Is it because they like BACON or is it because BACON is an abuse of what Logserver is meant to be used for? I recommend you to read true this topic some few more times and make sure you fully understand what CCP Atropos is saying before you EVER post again in this topic. There is also no point by trying to flame me and defend BACON and also to hope that you can flame this topic so much that it will get locked. BACON is been decleared as an abuse of Logserver and it's also been decleared as cheat to take an advantage over other players. I respect CCP, as an entity, quite a lot. I respect this position of CCP's not at all. They're generally a pretty good company, but this whole incident seems to illustrate their complete lack of understanding of the power of a large, active, and passionate game community. I wouldn't expect that from a company that seems to foster that same activity in other fora, and who has gone so far as to hire a real economics prof for a virtual economy, actions which I thought were indicative of an understanding of the value of a large network of actors, but nonetheless it seems to be their stance. Frankly, that's unfortunate in all manner of ways, most notably that it will result in a worse game for me, you, and everyone else, as potential improvements are choked off by active hostility on the part of the dev team, who seem willing to go so far as to gimp their own tools to avoid players from getting at data they already have. It's hurting the game, and yet you declare victory because you're too narrow-minded to install third-party applications that cross a line visible only to you. Oh, and a couple of other nitpicks. One, I oppose locking threads in 99% of circumstances, thus it's hardly a strategy of mine. I'm trying to debate you - even if the feeling isn't mutual - not shut down your rather anemic petition with a single-digit number of signatures. Two, it's neither been declared an abuse nor a cheat. It's been declared "frown[ed] upon" and "not ideal", but those are hardly the same thing. If you're going to attempt to keep up your side of this debate, please at least do so with a passing familiarity of the oft-repeated facts of the situation at hand.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:03:00 - [233] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Reuser I swear to God, you're either just an idiot or you don't care about crapping on CCP. You're like NightmareX, you read what you want to... I don't mind zealots. I mind _stupid_ zealots. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" ...the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable.. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. Discuss.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:04:00 - [234] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I respect CCP, as an entity, quite a lot. I respect this position of CCP's not at all. They're generally a pretty good company, but this whole incident seems to illustrate their complete lack of understanding of the power of a large, active, and passionate game community. I wouldn't expect that from a company that seems to foster that same activity in other fora, and who has gone so far as to hire a real economics prof for a virtual economy, actions which I thought were indicative of an understanding of the value of a large network of actors, but nonetheless it seems to be their stance. That must be the funniest thing i have read so far on this forum. But this whole incident seems to illustrate their complete lack of understanding you say? Wow, just wow.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:05:00 - [235] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Reuser I swear to God, you're either just an idiot or you don't care about crapping on CCP. You're like NightmareX, you read what you want to... I don't mind zealots. I mind _stupid_ zealots. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" ...the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable.. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. Discuss. AGAIN, you uberfail to see the point in what CCP Atropos actually are meaning by that.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:09:00 - [236] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Reuser I swear to God, you're either just an idiot or you don't care about crapping on CCP. You're like NightmareX, you read what you want to... I don't mind zealots. I mind _stupid_ zealots. First of all, writing "Discuss" after your post is stupid and redundant. I am pretty sure we are all here to "discuss" things in an INTERNET FORUM. Listen, if you actually READ THROUGH MY POST you would see that I have counterpoints to my own argument. But the fact that you are skimming Atropos' words to your own liking doesn't make you look any better. You have to take the entire post in a context, and not be nitpicky like a politician. We are not here to be politicians. We are here to obey what CCP lays out for us. Because you are nitpicking what Atropos said, you are not respecting the CONTEXT of what he is trying to say.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:12:00 - [237] Originally by: NightmareX AGAIN, you uberfail to see the point in what CCP Atropos actually are meaning by that. And also, like CCP Atropos said HERE. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. CCP Atropos said that, and when he say that you ARE taking an advantage or edge over other players in EVE, then ofc it's cheat. Why wouldn't it be a cheat? Edit your posts much? Trying to revise history? It's common in the insane.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:15:00 - [238] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX AGAIN, you uberfail to see the point in what CCP Atropos actually are meaning by that. And also, like CCP Atropos said HERE. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. CCP Atropos said that, and when he say that you ARE taking an advantage or edge over other players in EVE, then ofc it's cheat. Why wouldn't it be a cheat? Edit your posts much? Trying to revise history? It's common in the insane. Shut up about the editing, it's 04:16 AM here in Norway.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:23:00 - [239] Originally by: NightmareX Shut up about the editing, it's allowed to edit a post when you see that you have tons of spelling errors and that. And not only that, it's 04:17 Am here in Norway. I don't mind spelling, you keep adding things... Seriously, at least give me an (EDIT) caption at the bottom of the post so I know which NEW argument to attack. That being said, you should go to bed, as you are making very little sense. I don't want to win against someone who is off his game.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:25:00 - [240] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX Shut up about the editing, it's allowed to edit a post when you see that you have tons of spelling errors and that. And not only that, it's 04:17 Am here in Norway. I don't mind spelling, you keep adding things... Seriously, at least give me an (EDIT) caption at the bottom of the post so I know which NEW argument to attack. That being said, you should go to bed, as you are making very little sense. I don't want to win against someone who is off his game. I'm making very little sense?, and that had to come from a Hydra member, seriously, get a grip.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:26:00 - [241] So Reuser, you going to reply to my post or are you just going to blow past it again?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:28:00 - [242] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 06/05/2008 02:30:59 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 06/05/2008 02:29:29 Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX AGAIN, you uberfail to see the point in what CCP Atropos actually are meaning by that. And also, like CCP Atropos said HERE. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. CCP Atropos said that, and when he say that you ARE taking an advantage or edge over other players in EVE, then ofc it's cheat. Why wouldn't it be a cheat? Edit your posts much? Trying to revise history? It's common in the insane. Life lesson here kids... CCP has given certain individuals a way to save face, by publicly stating they aren't bad bad men, instead of outright smacking their pee-pee - a public nod to keep within the grace of the community. However, it's what happens AFTER that opportunity arises that matters. Do you squander it, or embrace it? You see, sometimes, even when you're behind and it stings like all bejesus, that point in time is when you bow out gracefully. The opposite action of doing this, really makes you look like a immature tard, and can validate that entities initial caution. Life lessons 101. Reuser, you're in danger of making your alliance look VERY bad. Please bow out for your fellow alliance players sake now. That's friendly advice - take it or leave it.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:29:00 - [243] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa So Reuser, you going to reply to my post or are you just going to blow past it again? It's probably why he is trying to make all kind of excuses to my replys here, so he can talk it away to something else.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:33:00 - [244] Originally by: cyt0matrix Originally by: Segge Bolled Originally by: NightmareX Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me Thread potential diminishes critically to null value at this point. Give it a rest hun, its too late. Devs said they are working on changing logserver and bacon will not be useful. Be that as it may, it shouldn't mean I have to agree with an OP demanding everyone fall in and goose-step behind them if one wants to express themself on an issue.
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:35:00 - [245] Originally by: NightmareX Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam. Before i start, i'd like to say that in this thread, and in any thread i post in, nobody has the right to disagree with me. Seriously, w t f? Bacon-equivalents had been (apparently) used by alliances for who knows how long and nobody cared, i don't know why everyone is whining now, given how many people must have already seen bacon. Really I think a lot of the whines are people that don't like the idea that everyone gets their once semi-exclusive tool, or by people who feel irritated by the fact that they didn't know about such a tool. Originally by: NightmareX The first rule i see it break, is about the 3rd party apps. The users of BACON say that it doesn't have any communication with the EVE server, so it's allowed. That might be true. But they don't seem to get the point. NO 3rd party apps that gets ANY information of what's happening ingame shouldn't be allowed in any ways. Whatever the reason is. Oh, you mean kind of like EVEmon, or all of those other wonderful character planning, out of game wallet, etc programs. they are third party and get data in realtime. There are very good reasons for the existence of these applications, so i really don't think your blanket statement is justified at all. Originally by: NightmareX The second rule i see it break is about advantage over other players. Yes, BACON takes an advantage over me for example, because i don't use BACON, and will never do. And as far as i know, the reason why UI modification is not allowed in EVE, is because you can easily make add-ons to EVE then that takes an advantage over other players. So that's why that's forbidden. And it will stay like that forever. The reason UI modification is not allowed is probably because of **ty code/lack of foresight. The UI is buggy as hell...possibly some mods could correct this or help with it, maybe I want to have my drone groups in different colors, or display heat differently, or whatever. I guess this gives you a tiny "advantage" but its not like macro mining or anything...i really don't see a good reason to oppose it. Originally by:** NightmareX That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloak when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???. Having a C++ compiler on your computer can allow you to write macros, so CCP should ban anyone with the above on their computer! False... CCP can and will ban players when they macro, but when they use 3rd party apps in a way consistent with the EULA, which use no more information than the average player has (local), there is no reason to punish them. It will be a sad day if CCP caves in to yet another player whine to change some small aspect of the game (the logserver) without addressing the real underlying problem (LOCAL).
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:36:00 - [246] Shakuul, have you actually readed the whole topic?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:39:00 - [247] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa You have to take the entire post in a context, and not be nitpicky like a politician. We are not here to be politicians. We are here to obey what CCP lays out for us. Because you are nitpicking what Atropos said, you are not respecting the CONTEXT of what he is trying to say. There is a lot of opinion in your post. I've read each and every post by CCP exhaustively. I have dreams about them. It's my job to respond to people like you. My job sucks. Right now, it's still up in the air, according to every CCP post, CCP cannot and more importantly WILL not make a definitive statement on this until the next major code release. They know about BACON, they know about the other tools and come that release all log server based tools are going away. Read that last sentence again. "All log server based tools are going away." That's a good thing and that sentence makes me very happy. What doesn't make me happy is the EVE community being selectively blind about the existence of these tools. Who are you anyway? Are you the uber-troll that NightmareX has on speed-dial?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:39:00 - [248] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I respect CCP, as an entity, quite a lot. I respect this position of CCP's not at all. They're generally a pretty good company, but this whole incident seems to illustrate their complete lack of understanding of the power of a large, active, and passionate game community. I wouldn't expect that from a company that seems to foster that same activity in other fora, and who has gone so far as to hire a real economics prof for a virtual economy, actions which I thought were indicative of an understanding of the value of a large network of actors, but nonetheless it seems to be their stance. That must be the funniest thing i have read so far on this forum. But this whole incident seems to illustrate their complete lack of understanding you say? Wow, just wow. Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. The more I look at systems of any sort, the more I see the value in distributed decision-making for problem solving. It's not appropriate to all problems, of course - I shudder at the thought of distributed solutions to what new stuff should be implemented in the next patch, it'd look way too much like Eve General for my liking - but where there's no externalities or collective action problems, throwing open the doors and letting happen what may is, almost inevitably, the fastest and best way to a solution. It's the basis of our economy, of our biology, of our brain function, of the greatest information source in the history of humanity, of the Internet, and of so many other wonders of the modern age that I cannot even come close to enumerating them all. In short, it works. There are no externalities to UI mods - my usage of BACON does not affect your gameplay experience. There are no collective action problems - there's no need for us all to have the same UI. And, Eve players being human, there's a widely disparate set of preferences for what a good UI should consist of. Why not give each player full access over it? Toss the information a player has available as-is into the open, where any would-be modder can get his hands on it, and let people run wild. There need to be prohibitions against macroing and the like, to ensure fairness, but different tools for UI enhancements are hardly game breaking. For comparison, I submit WoW to you. I don't play myself(tried it once, didn't like it), but I have a roommate who does quite a lot, and looking at the UI customization in that game makes me really aggravated at how utterly nonexistent Eve's is in comparison. There are mods by the hundreds, mods to do everything from completely reconfiguring the layout to tracking NPC aggro to all sorts of gang displays that would make me train up a logistics ship in a heartbeat if I had them here. They make the game unquestionably better, by a large margin, and every WoW player I know agrees. In both the generic and the specific case, the best solution is openness and friendliness towards those willing to devote their efforts to enhancing the common good. The correct solution, for this particular instance, is to open up the aspects of the game the player gets to see, and to encourage and perhaps even support the efforts of those who want to improve the client with tools to analyze this data. They did it with XML and API dumps of skills and market info, and I'm grateful for it and use the tools based on those extensively. But the very success of those tools should be spurring on further innovation opportunities for players, and it's not. Instead, the devs seem to be locking down anybody who wants to make the next EveMon, and taking away their tools instead of adding to them. They claim to know what the community can do for their game, and they support it sometimes, but as soon as a whiff of creativity comes along, they stomp on it. It's shameful, short-sighted, and ultimately stupid, and it's something I'm thoroughly disappointed to see from a company that I really thought would know better.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:40:00 - [249] OH MY GOD, wall of useless text that doesn't have any sense / meaning at all.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:42:00 - [250] Originally by: Reuser Who are you anyway? Are you the uber-troll that NightmareX has on speed-dial? Don't talk about trolling here, because so far you have prooven to be more of a troll than all of the troll posts in total in this post.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:43:00 - [251] Originally by: Christari Zuborov The opposite action of doing this, really makes you look like a immature tard, and can validate that entities initial caution. I do believe you refuted yourself.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:45:00 - [252] Originally by: NightmareX Anyways, STAY ON TOPIC. And don't make stupid excuses why you think i'm wrong, when it's prooved that i'm 100% right about everything in this topic. What? What, in the name of anything you hold holy, are you on?
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:45:00 - [253] Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:45:37 Jesus christ man, stop beeing an idiot Reuser.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:47:00 - [254] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Christari Zuborov You see, sometimes, even when you're behind and it stings like all bejesus, that point in time is when you bow out gracefully. The opposite action of doing this, really makes you look like a immature tard, and can validate that entities initial caution. I do believe you refuted yourself. Maybe you didn't read that in context, try again. Have fun dragging your alliance members through the mud - please - don't stop on my account!
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:48:00 - [255] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Reuser Who are you anyway? Are you the uber-troll that NightmareX has on speed-dial? Don't talk about trolling here, because so far you have prooven to be more of a troll than all of the troll posts in total in this post. Because the CEO of Gunfleet has no right to speak? Seriously?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:49:00 - [256] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:48:01 Jesus christ man, stop beeing an idiot Reuser. Oh hey, there is a Report button here, i'm tempted to try it out, because you doing nothing more than trolling and making excuses. ANOTHER EDIT!
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:51:00 - [257] Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:52:33 Originally by: Reuser Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:48:01 Jesus christ man, stop beeing an idiot Reuser. Oh hey, there is a Report button here, i'm tempted to try it out, because you doing nothing more than trolling and making excuses. ANOTHER EDIT! So what? I can edit my replys a billion times here without having anything to worry about, the edit button is there for a reason. Again, stay on topic. Make one more **** reply, and i will actually Report you.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:52:00 - [258] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:49:25 Jesus christ man, stop beeing an idiot Reuser. Oh hey, there is a Report button here, i'm tempted to try it out, because you doing nothing more than trolling and making excuses now. I think at this point he's just trying to get the thread locked - stop posting now so it's preserved in historical context for all to see.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:52:00 - [259] I hate to do this, but I am calling for the lock. NightmareX called an amazingly well reasoned post a "wall of text". Either the mods come in and do some serious pruning, or this is lost... (Reporting my own post for the lock)
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:53:00 - [260] Originally by: Reuser I hate to do this, but I am calling for the lock. NightmareX called an amazingly well reasoned post a "wall of text". Either the mods come in and do some serious pruning, or this is lost... (Reporting my own post for the lock) DING DING DING!!!
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:54:00 - [261] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:49:25 Jesus christ man, stop beeing an idiot Reuser. Oh hey, there is a Report button here, i'm tempted to try it out, because you doing nothing more than trolling and making excuses now. I think at this point he's just trying to get the thread locked - stop posting now so it's preserved in historical context for all to see. I know, and i also know that he see that i'm right and he can't do anything to save his pile of **** program, so he does everything he can do to try and get it locked. But take it easy, sending an Report right now.
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:04:00 - [262] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:37:03 Shakuul, have you actually readed the whole topic? Your terribly terribly wrong in absolutely EVERYTHING you just said. Yes, in fact I have readed the whole topic. Franco made some similar points...and here was your response... Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 20:13:28 Franco Caruso, you seems to not understand all of my replys in this topic. You don't like responding to criticism? I don't mind if you make specific points about my comments. I'm just annoyed that you try to pass off sweeping generalizations, like "NO 3rd party apps that gets ANY information of what's happening ingame shouldn't be allowed in any ways. Whatever the reason is." or "And as far as i know, the reason why UI modification is not allowed in EVE, is because you can easily make add-ons to EVE then that takes an advantage over other players. So that's why that's forbidden. And it will stay like that forever." as a valid point with good justification. Someone else didn't like my EVEmon analogy... Originally by: Havohej The comparisons between EFT/EVEMon and BACON are comical at best, trolling at worst. If you're stupid enough to not see the difference, let me point it out: BACON does something for you, actively, dramatically effecting your game play in real time. It watches local FOR you. Alertness is part of actively playing a game. If you have a program to be alert FOR you, then that program is playing part of the game FOR you. There used to be debate on the forums about which skill builds were better, which skills to train next. Finding some trade routes used to be difficult (some still are hard to find), but now we have all of these tools that do the thinking for you. The reason we have these tools is that its not worth our time to do all of those meticulous calculations. We want to think about more interesting problems, like what the market will be like in 3 months, or what BPO to actually invest in. Similarly, I don't think its a very rewarding experience to play WATCH LOCAL Online. If you don't respond to me I guess thats up to you. You did say in the OP that you didn't want to respond to people that disagreed.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:05:00 - [263] Guys, this war over editing is stupid. Reuser, if you're worried about him editing history, just quote him in full when you reply - he can't edit your posts. Nightmare, learn to give your posts a damn proofreading before you post them - the "Check here to preview your post" box is there for a reason too. As for that "wall of text", read it or don't, I really can't bring myself to care much what you think of it. I'm writing it for the hypothetical unaffiliated viewer who may or may not actually exist in a thread such as this, I know your positions can't be dislodged short of dynamite. Mind you, I'm curious to find out what those positions are, at least in greater detail than "BACON bad, adherence to reality aggravating", but since you don't seem especially interested in anything approaching proper debate, I guess it'll just have to remain an enigma.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:06:00 - [264] Originally by: CCP Atropos I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. We're very much aware of the situation and as I've said already, it's being dealt with. You know, I'm a fairly hard core PVP'er (if I do say so myself), but I'm rather a fan of BACON. Well, the idea of it anyway. It's clever, and I applaud the ingenuity. I'm also a software developer, btw. :p That said, I wonder how they'll nerf BACON. My guess is that they'll encrypt the logs (that's the easy way). Once they've encrypted the logs, if the key is dynamically generated based on certain inputs, then BACON will have to actually jack with Eve to find those inputs out. And then BACON will be against the EULA. Until then, keep up the ingenious work, Gunfleet. :p -Liang
Reuser Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:08:00 - [265] Originally by: NightmareX I know, and i also know that he see that i'm right and he can't do anything to save his pile of ** program, so he does everything he can do to try and get it locked. Can you read, seriously? Can you? Are you some kind of a uber-robot-stupid-troll??? Originally by:** Reuser Read that last sentence again. "All log server based tools are going away." That's a good thing and that sentence makes me very happy. What doesn't make me happy is the EVE community being selectively blind about the existence of these tools.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:09:00 - [266] Again, stay on topic. Someone might get spanked seriously by a forum ban here if you don't keep this topic on topic.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:12:00 - [267] Originally by: Liang Nuren Once they've encrypted the logs, if the key is dynamically generated based on certain inputs, then BACON will have to actually jack with Eve to find those inputs out. And then BACON will be against the EULA. Until then, keep up the ingenious work, Gunfleet. :p -Liang Gunfleet Logistics will never mount an INSTANT of effort to try to break that key. I know every director in Gunfleet and I can tell you I have their vote in this instance. We went to CCP with our questions, and we will continue to do so. And thanks.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:14:00 - [268] Reuser, after doing much thinking and reading over your posts, I have much contempt for you. You can't keep a valid argument and your constant nitpicking and constant disdain for CCP gives me reason to dislike you. Stop posting nonsense, and hacking away at people trying to be sly and witty for editing their posts. I edit my posts, you edit your posts. If you see something that they correct or change, it's none of your business unless you want to correct a response to their statement. Just... grrr.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:34:00 - [269] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 06/05/2008 04:35:03 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Reuser, after doing much thinking and reading over your posts, I have much contempt for you. You can't keep a valid argument and your constant nitpicking and constant disdain for CCP gives me reason to dislike you. Stop posting nonsense, and hacking away at people trying to be sly and witty for editing their posts. I edit my posts, you edit your posts. If you see something that they correct or change, it's none of your business unless you want to correct a response to their statement. Just... grrr. Nobody's keeping to formal standards of debate here, rather obviously - I've devolved into Mr. T based insults, and I'm normally one of the more composed guys in any given thread. The fact that the guy getting shat on the most is also the guy getting the most frustrated is not a surprise, and the fact that he's acting on that frustration is also not a surprise. That said, he's not devoid of valid arguments - the thought experiment on page 8, about how a similar system would exist almost inevitably in the game universe, seemed pretty convincing to me. You've all just been ignoring the well-stated arguments on our side in favour of the meaningless sparring over who wants to ban the thread, or post editing, or whatever. Obviously, we've been suboptimal on the topic as well - Reuser and myself have both talked about some pretty stupid things - but it looks to me like we're trying a whole lot harder to at least keep this debate civil and well-reasoned. Maybe that's just the lingering influence of Nightmare's foolishness and willful blindness, but it looks to me like more of our good arguments have gone unanswered than yours. So how about this - you throw down your best arguments, we throw down ours, and we try to have a civil discussion of some variety between now and whenever our Norwegian friend gets back here to dumb it back down. I'll lead with these three. - The information is already freely available to all players, BACON is merely a labour-saving device to analyze that data, similarly to how EveMon is a labour-saving device to compute freely available skills data. - Early warning systems would inevitably exist in the Eve universe, and as such the devs should not be trying to prevent their existence. (see here) - The existence of player-built tools to customize the game improves the game for all players. As such, the devs should be encouraging their proliferation, not trying to remove their functionality. (see here) You in?
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:41:00 - [270] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: Kiviar I agree completely as I see it all BACON has done is taken a part of eve that was tedious and time consuming and automated it, giving me more time to actually have fun instead of staring at a little chat box sifting through portraits for hours on end. Mineing = a part of eve that is tedious and time consuming. CCP can I please have a mining bacon ? Sure - if you want to put together an application that plays a sound whenever a new asteroid belt enters local, feel free. Oh but I could do so much more, people appear to believe that 3rd party mods are allowed if and I quote, "all BACON has done is taken a part of eve that was tedious and time consuming and automated it" well frack me, thats the pinical discription of mining. so using your logic a program that I could write to automate mineing is allowed. as its a boring aspect of the game... Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:09:00 - [271] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 06/05/2008 07:09:20 Originally by: Gone'Postal Oh but I could do so much more, people appear to believe that 3rd party mods are allowed if and I quote, "all BACON has done is taken a part of eve that was tedious and time consuming and automated it" well frack me, thats the pinical discription of mining. so using your logic a program that I could write to automate mineing is allowed. as its a boring aspect of the game... The distinction I draw is between programs that play the game and those that don't. As far as I'm concerned, a program that redistributes system outputs into a different form for the user to view/hear/whatever is legit, without question. I'd also similarly allow those that exist to redistribute player inputs(e.g., some keyboards exist with built-in macro buttons, binding such a button to press F1-F8 and trigger all your turrets in one keystroke seems legit), as is necessary for any changes to the GUI, among other things. I'd place the condition on those that there can be no time delay though - the player must be at the controls in order for anything to happen. But simply changing what a mouse click at the top left of the Eve window means, or the like, is hardly abusive. By contrast, what you're referring to is a program that provides automated player inputs, without any need for the player to do anything but set the script going and wander off. I know of a few games that allow for such "play", but frankly, Eve shouldn't be one of them, it'd be too damaging to the game economy for those who actually play the game themselves. Anything that enhances a player's ability to play the game themselves I'm for, anything that replaces a player's ability to play the game themselves I'm against. And yes, I know the rules I set out are far larger than what the EULA currently allows for. I think the EULA should be expanded accordingly, though I won't use any programs that violate the rules set out by it until it is changed. I'm not going to get into the exact technical distinction of what the new EULA should look like, or where to draw the line precisely, but that's the distinction I make in principle.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:18:00 - [272] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The distinction I draw is between programs that play the game and those that don't. As far as I'm concerned, a program that redistributes system outputs into a different form for the user to view/hear/whatever is legit, without question. I'd also similarly allow those that exist to redistribute player inputs(e.g., some keyboards exist with built-in macro buttons, binding such a button to press F1-F8 and trigger all your turrets in one keystroke seems legit), as is necessary for any changes to the GUI, among other things. I'd place the condition on those that there can be no time delay though - the player must be at the controls in order for anything to happen. But simply changing what a mouse click at the top left of the Eve window means, or the like, is hardly abusive. Erm.. BACON works even if your not at the controls, does it not? it also by your own admission automates that little mouse click at the top of the screen without you clicking on anything, macros like the Logitech G15 the user still has to press a button.. you do not have to do that with BACON. So BACON is a macro for checking new local users, granted it's a damn nice way of doing it but you just defined it as a macro. (it automates a player action without the player) *I'm off to work so please don't think that my lack of replys is victory Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:42:00 - [273] Edited by: Franco Caruso on 06/05/2008 07:42:26 Reuser, NightmareX and everybody else, CCP has spoken. There is no more need to discuss BACON at all. Reuser, you Sir, stop the selective reading. Read this post carefully and do not stop after the first paragraph, when it start to get ugly for you and your BACON. Yes, CCP in the early days, was quicker in reacting to stuff like that. Now, having become a decentralized corporate behemont ( wow that sounds good ) they are slower, but nevertheless, will react as announced by Atropos. If you have missed it here is the quote: Originally by: CCP Atropos We have created and released EVE, the community then creates Program A. In turn we reanalyse our stance and change EVE. The community then creates Program B... ad infinitum. Originally by: CCP Atropos We're midway through that cycle presently, waiting for the 'official' response from us with the next iteration of our software. So, just sit there and enjoy BACON while it lasts. There is no need for further discussion. And here is something I thought I never will say, I agree with Siigari. If Hydra wants to show that they are as mature, intelligent and game loving as they depict themselves to be, remove the website, the downloads etc. You have made the game better, wanting to do so or not. Saying that, I hope that CCP renders logserver and its output useless to any third party developer.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:34:00 - [274] Franco Caruso, i agree on that. So the more Reuser are trying to defend BACON the more stupid he is, because BACON is decleared dead anyways by the devs. So why defend it? And again, if you want to discuss BACON here, then do it in a normal way instead of making all kind of excuses and trolls here. Because i think some new topics about BACON is going to get locked pretty fast anyways. So keep it all in one topic, also this one.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:14:00 - [275] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 06/05/2008 11:14:50 Originally by: Franco Caruso And here is something I thought I never will say, I agree with Siigari. \o/ Epicness ITT :D
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:27:00 - [276] Nightmarex, seriously bru stop trying to emberass yourself with selective quoting and just handpicking what you want to be pushed into people's eyes from staff employees :P CCP staff members have private angles, CCP has its own angle, as always CCP are on the job. The way you're going you're just giving the impression of a converted carebear :P Seriously, as much as I agree on the principalities, your methods are counterproductive (in the mean time Hydra loose yet more lazy folks in the belts thinking stuff like this makes a difference). CAOD FTW.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:32:00 - [277] Reuser, don't take it the wrong way but you appear to be missing how you're being played. Not for fun, gain, content or even actual topic, but just to continue and deliver the ammo. CCP's observation on how people make idiots of themselves has already been quite clear, the folks you're trying to argue with are sofar unable to grasp the dismay in that observation, and if they can't get that, they won't get much of anything. In the mean time, all of this is coming down to the forum equivalent of a gank vs ratter op, which for all intents and purposes is going exactly as it does in game: no matter what you do, every wreck delivers more loot and free ammo. Don't expect the forum ADD warriors to be capable of looking at the actual big picture: policy, historic usage, technical aspects, usage (far) beyond the simple levels of Local interaction to far more damaging application types, the list goes on. This is just a normal attention event. CAOD FTW.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:35:00 - [278] Like i told on the reply before this one Virtuozzo, i have told everything i have to say about BACON. There was also a valid point why i made this topic, and it's been told several times in this topic, and i hope you accept it. Not sure if CCP have anything more to say or add though, but if you have, please do so.

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:42:00 - [279] Cleaned Please try and stay on-topic and not end up discussing posting styles.

Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:10:00 - [280] Edited by: Thorradin on 06/05/2008 12:10:21 Originally by: NightmareX Inability to accept GM Grimmi's post even though he's a lead GM. Your unwillingness to accept what one of the lead GMs (you know, thee guys who make and enforce rules on MMO) has said about a questionable program, and that they are working to effectively kill such programs, is a bit much, but atleast there's a bluebar in this thread.
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:14:00 - [281] Originally by: Cori4n Ventrilo and TS were around far before the advent of EVE Voice, and still are more common than it for the obvious reason. EVEMon and EFT haven't been dealt with at all. Not that I'd mind if there was an EFT built into EVE ;) EFT is just a fancy calculator (programmed in VB isn't it?) while EVEmon is an alarm clock with some pictures. Neither are something you realisitcally can do away with, or need to because they give no more advantage than a spreadsheet, or in EVEmon'd case, a post-it note on your monitor saying when to change a skill (which is what I did before dl'ing evemon to see what the fuss was about). I've missed more skills wth EVEmon that a post-it note though.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:16:00 - [282] Originally by: Thorradin Edited by: Thorradin on 06/05/2008 12:10:21 Originally by: NightmareX Inability to accept GM Grimmi's post even though he's a lead GM. Your unwillingness to accept what one of the lead GMs (you know, thee guys who make and enforce rules on MMO) has said about a questionable program, and that they are working to effectively kill such programs, is a bit much, but atleast there's a bluebar in this thread. Like i said, what he said didn't explain the things i was after good enough. CCP Atropos explained exactly what i was after. The GM only said that it wasn't against the current EULA or TOS, and that was not enough for me or many others here. And i think you can agree on that to.
nastea	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:37:00 - [283] Wow....All I can say is WAH about the whining about BACON. I think the GM's post sums it up. If you want some spyware on your pc that watches everything you do....Go play a rogue on warcraft, at least that way you will still get to sneak up on people and stab them in the back while having your computer monitored. Just admit your mad that you can't sneak up on certain people anymore and that your now simply projecting. If anything you made BACON more popular by having threads by this. "Whining is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do but gets you know where"
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:41:00 - [284] Originally by: nastea Wow....All I can say is WAH about the whining about BACON. I think the GM's post sums it up. If you want some spyware on your pc that watches everything you do....Go play a rogue on warcraft, at least that way you will still get to sneak up on people and stab them in the back while having your computer monitored. Just admit your mad that you can't sneak up on certain people anymore and that your now simply projecting. If anything you made BACON more popular by having threads by this. "Whining is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do but gets you know where" Have you readed THIS?.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:41:00 - [285] Originally by: NightmareX Have you readed THIS?. I readeded it. :)
Savlin Gallente principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:43:00 - [286] Petition signed.
nastea	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:46:00 - [287] Edited by: nastea on 06/05/2008 12:56:18 Edited by: nastea on 06/05/2008 12:55:00 Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: nastea Wow....All I can say is WAH about the whining about BACON. I think the GM's post sums it up. If you want some spyware on your pc that watches everything you do....Go play a rogue on warcraft, at least that way you will still get to sneak up on people and stab them in the back while having your computer monitored. Just admit your mad that you can't sneak up on certain people anymore and that your now simply projecting. If anything you made BACON more popular by having threads by this. "Whining is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do but gets you know where" Have you readed THIS?. I have bedderer things to do than readed this. EDIT: BTW I have to thank you NightmareX for pointing this out to me....Considering what I have read. I think I may just install it until its deemed no longer working or its deemed "illegal". I am sure many other people can thank you for pointing it out to them. I will make a special place just for you in the XML file to alert me to if we are ever in the same zone...That I may say hello.
Hobo Roughsleeper	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:47:00 - [288] Signed.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:04:00 - [289] Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 13:05:56 Originally by: nastea I have bedderer things to do than readed this. EDIT: BTW I have to thank you NightmareX for pointing this out to me....Considering what I have read. I think I may just install it until its deemed no longer working or its deemed "illegal". I am sure many other people can thank you for pointing it out to them. I will make a special place just for you in the XML file to alert me to if we are ever in the same zone...That I may say hello. Both me and CCP can't stop you or anyone else from using BACON until the Logserver is changed, and we wont stop you either. Simply because we can't atm. So just use BACON while you can. Or at least you could show CCP some respect by not using it. I at least did show CCP respect. Why do you think CCP is not to happy to post on the EVE forum today?, it's because so many players in EVE today doesn't respect CCP, and tbh, it's bad. Because the more CCP communicate with us on the forum, the better it is.
nastea	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:16:00 - [290] Edited by: nastea on 06/05/2008 13:18:15 OH NO /WRIST EDIT: If I did not respect them I wouldn't pay them...Besides its not against the Terms as previously stated. Breaking terms would be disrespect.

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:20:00 - [291] I think we're done here. I've said all that I think really needs to be said on the matter, and yet none of you can keep this on track; it all descends into anarchy and name calling. Go take a break, fly around in your new shuttles, and let the matter lie. If you can't be civil to each other, than let me step in and stop you from saying anything to each other. Topic locked.

NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:23:00 - [292] Originally by: nastea EDIT: If I did not respect them I wouldn't pay them...Besides its not against the Terms as previously stated. Breaking terms would be disrespect. So only because you pay them to play EVE it means you respect them?, you can pay them, but still be an utterly idiot on the forum and not respect CCP there. Not that i'm saying you are it, but you get the point?

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.