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Tenaka Kahn Minmatar Invicta.	Posted - 2008.05.15 15:03:00 - [1] So, lately it seems the big thing to fix is Amarr. They got their multi damage type ships to vary there damage types, the 5th turret on the Zealot and tech 1 counterpart, and got the resist changed to level the playing field for damage for them (something I'm still baffled with as a matar player, they never hit soft). Now it seems the big rally point is the Pilgrim a ship that could undoubtedly use a bit of love. But I think all the races need a bit of love in some areas, Minmatar still suffer from a true form of EW and from what I've seen have accepted it and taken it quite well. The Amarr crowd rallied and it seems as CCP heard them and made some changes. I'm sure we can all think of a few actual issues that could use some boosting, are we just lacking in getting together to see about some real EW, our MS still doesn't know if it wants to shield tank or armor tank even though the niddy got itself sorted, and finally the fact most Matar pilots never get to maximize our damage as we take such a huge damage penalty from being in our falloff most the time. Now, I've been flyin Minmatar for 4 years and love the race and have little to no complaints. It's the hardest race out there and thus I think we deserve a few minor fixes in some areas. As I said, maybe its just a matter of enough of us coming together.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.15 15:09:00 - [2] Amarr got alot of good stuff lately, even with the relatively small buffs some of the ships got. Im just wondering, where they REALLY that crappy before these buffs? Or did the amarr whinesquad got everything they wanted with just a few minor buffs? Seems to me some amarr ships are pretty....overpowered atm.. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
Tenaka Kahn Minmatar Invicta.	Posted - 2008.05.15 15:23:00 - [3] Well, I don't believe Amarr have ever been hurting for much, else there wouldn't be so many. But I'd rather keep this as a legit Minmatar flaw discussion with the hopes to see some change and avoid personal wants and skip and mud slinging if we can.
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.15 20:06:00 - [4] Well, you probably have noticed that minmatar pilots don't really whine on the forum, aside for the huge nid' complaint perhaps. Maybe it's because we got this "Eve in HARD MODE" tag stamped on our ships, people expect this kind of crap! Still, I wouldn't mind getting some racial EW Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.15 20:16:00 - [5] The matar EW has become more useful wth thr torp buff and torp ships becoming Pvp beats. Gallente pilots suffer more from short range than matar pilots do. I've never had any personal experience with the nid so can't comment on this one but overall I think minny are fine atm. I've started to really love flying them and they are quickly becoming my favourite race (until reasonabbly recently it was amarr and caldari... strange that. Maybe me liking something is a sign of it needing/soon to be getting a buff )
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.05.15 22:29:00 - [6] I suspect that if you inspect the sales figures (from economic report memory, and personal experience with cap ship sales - plese correct me if wrong) that you will find that the Minmatar big ships are consistently sup-par. The small ships are, on average, good - no complaints up to and including command ships. [For example; stiletto, vaga, rapier, rifter...] But, say what you like about BS, caps and freighters, there are always better ships for whatever you want to do from the other races (with the possible exception of the nanophoon). The Minnie philosophy is just harder to implement for big ships, and some logical measures (like more jump range for the Fenrir to try to even the playing field with the larger capacity ships) are blocked. Discuss
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.15 22:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Shidhe I suspect that if you inspect the sales figures (from economic report memory, and personal experience with cap ship sales - plese correct me if wrong) that you will find that the Minmatar big ships are consistently sup-par. The small ships are, on average, good - no complaints up to and including command ships. [For example; stiletto, vaga, rapier, rifter...] But, say what you like about BS, caps and freighters, there are always better ships for whatever you want to do from the other races (with the possible exception of the nanophoon). The Minnie philosophy is just harder to implement for big ships, and some logical measures (like more jump range for the Fenrir to try to even the playing field with the larger capacity ships) are blocked. Discuss Uhm, that's fairly accurate. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:57:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 15/05/2008 23:58:32 I primarily use minmitar for PVP and for the most part they're an excellent race if you have the knowledge on how to use them. They have some really good cruiser sized ships, especially in the T2 range. Rapier, vagabond, and broadsword are some of the best in their respective classes. Webifiers sort of are their specialized ewar, i mean how often do you hear complaints about the rapier/huginn being too weak? Personally I also love the hurricane. The Maelstrom is decent mission ship, and the Typhoon has it's uses however specialized. I think the only thing that really needs looking at is the tempest. It's set up and bonused to be a fleet ship but it fails at this miserably. The Gallente ships outclass them in this area, even the rokh can put out better then the tempest and from better range. The artillery has a good alpha at up to 60-70km with rigs, but beyond that the alpha is completely beat by the other sniping platform's DPS which is where a fleet shines. Even at high alpha strike, mid ranged, instapopping the maelstrom does better. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.16 08:25:00 - [9] The Minmatar BS are generally fine when it comes to bonuses, slot layout etc but it's the large AC and artillery that need a boost, either make them easier to fit or give them a small damage boost. I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
Man'corr Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.16 08:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Shidhe I suspect that if you inspect the sales figures (from economic report memory, and personal experience with cap ship sales - plese correct me if wrong) that you will find that the Minmatar big ships are consistently sup-par. The small ships are, on average, good - no complaints up to and including command ships. [For example; stiletto, vaga, rapier, rifter...] But, say what you like about BS, caps and freighters, there are always better ships for whatever you want to do from the other races (with the possible exception of the nanophoon). The Minnie philosophy is just harder to implement for big ships, and some logical measures (like more jump range for the Fenrir to try to even the playing field with the larger capacity ships) are blocked. Discuss Well thst basically the point ofd design philosophy. Matar go fast and that works way better with smaller ships. Amarr go heavy armor thwich woprks great with big ships. Its only in cruiser territory where its problematic (neither big nor small). All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk Back after a 4 Year Hiatus. Damn whats Capital ships?
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.16 10:28:00 - [11] Amarr still need to have the cap reduction "bonus" fixed (as in removed) Still, I agree that the bs+ sized mini ships need some fixes. I have looked at the capitals there, and the only good thing about them is their looks. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.05.16 11:03:00 - [12] No complaints from me regarding Minmatar...although the BS's seem a bit bleah compared to the others. I recently bought my first Tempest, fitted it, rigged it, and threw it in the back of the hangar to rot--BS's ain't my thing anyway . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Slave Runner	Posted - 2008.05.16 11:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Dristra Amarr still need to have the cap reduction "bonus" fixed (as in removed) Yeah, removed instead of built in as a third bonus would certainly be a fix.
Draeca Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.16 17:51:00 - [14] Edited by: Draeca on 16/05/2008 17:50:46 Originally by: Vathar Still, I wouldn't mind getting some racial EW Replace the target painter bonus on T1 ships with a web bonus -> matar EW buff + undirect nanonerf = profit!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.16 18:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Vathar Well, you probably have noticed that minmatar pilots don't really whine on the forum, aside for the huge nid' complaint perhaps. Maybe it's because we got this "Eve in HARD MODE" tag stamped on our ships, people expect this kind of crap! Still, I wouldn't mind getting some racial EW Bah - any ship can be hard mode if you try to use it for something silly. That being said. . . Amarr are an odd race. While gallente has brutal firepower at point blank range, matari have flexability and speed and caldari has range and generally effecient weapons for any scenario, Amarr relies on the time honored Gank/Tank. Unfortunately the these modern times of buffer tanks that can exceed 80k EHP with ease, ships that fly faster than the fastest missiles can go or the guns can track, a gank/tank setup is gimped at best. Amarr ships in general had difficulty because their ships dump cap at tremendous rates just shooting making them a tank or gank race and gallente did the whole gank bit better in general. The popularity of armor tanked ships meant that much of the damage Amarr could sling was absorbed by natural resistances that were only made better with EANM's and whatnot. Amarr was never truly terrible or useless as they always claimed. Their ships were weak in general in a lot of areas but it doesn't mean they can't be used for some things. These days Amarr has little to complain about. Fast tracking turrets, hard hitting AND far reacing beams. Lower resists to their primary damage type across the board and the resurection of the Apoc (and it's phalic jokes). Matari ships on the other hand are exceptional at the frigate - BC levels and then become subpar. That isn't to say that Matari battleships and cap ships are useless, just less useful in general than their peers.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.16 18:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Draeca Edited by: Draeca on 16/05/2008 17:50:46 Originally by: Vathar Still, I wouldn't mind getting some racial EW Replace the target painter bonus on T1 ships with a web bonus -> matar EW buff + undirect nanonerf = profit! I think that may be a bit too much of a buff tbh.
Tenaka Kahn Minmatar Invicta.	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:02:00 - [17] Some of you are missing my point, minmatar as a whole is a great race. We play differently than the other races, most of our ships start out as armor tanking and when we trade up to the t2 variants you shield tank them. My biggest issue right now with matar is racially our specialty is going fast and until the poly carb nerf hits, we're losing what makes us special. I don't have an issue with our substandard tanking ability due to less slots, our limited damage as we have to fight in fall off and thus don't hit for max ability. My ultimate point is every race has there issues and weak points, other races have been getting nice little buffs and some are taking hits. I'd just like to see a little bit of balancing as far as the e-war and wanted some minmatar pilots to voice some opinions since we've been listening to the mighty amarr victor whine for some time now.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:33:00 - [18] Tenaka is right here. The Target painter isn't that nice EW compared to the others. The only real EW that makes minmatar diffrent from the rest are the webbers. I would like to see the bellicose with a webbing bonus instead of a target painting bonus. It doesnt have to be a range bonus, but a extra slowdown bonus would help. Therefore we could fight easier in our falloff.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Gimpb on 16/05/2008 20:47:35 Edited by: Gimpb on 16/05/2008 20:47:16 Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: Draeca Edited by: Draeca on 16/05/2008 17:50:46 Originally by: Vathar Still, I wouldn't mind getting some racial EW Replace the target painter bonus on T1 ships with a web bonus -> matar EW buff + undirect nanonerf = profit! I think that may be a bit too much of a buff tbh. It could be cool if they added new T1 cruisers that had the T2 ewar benefit for each race (neut, jam, web). Caldari would have to work a little different but w/e. Say... kinda funny they just stated new cruisers will be introduced with the expansion... could be closer than we think. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that at least some of them will be good against nanos in one way or another.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Gimpb Say... kinda funny they just stated new cruisers will be introduced with the expansion... could be closer than we think. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that at least some of them will be good against nanos in one way or another. I really doubt it, because CCP has already given us their ideas on how they plan to nerf nano. Of course, nothing's set in stone, but... ;-) We'll see. Maybe they'll be covered by the dev blogs. ^_^ -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Poena Loveless MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:05:00 - [21] As a 100% minnie character, i was extreemly disappointed that i even wasted the isk to buy large projectile turret and minmatar battleship skills. Trained them both to level IV before I even bought a bs and realised my folly. they are useless. And if you are into mission running its laughable at best. Practically need to have your target double webbed and painted to hit for half the 'great alpha' that we are supposed to have (--that gets beaten by Amarr BSs on the second shot...)
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:30:00 - [22] Originally by: arbalesttom Amarr got alot of good stuff lately, even with the relatively small buffs some of the ships got. Im just wondering, where they REALLY that crappy before these buffs? Or did the amarr whinesquad got everything they wanted with just a few minor buffs? Seems to me some amarr ships are pretty....overpowered atm.. Allways good with enuff SP?
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Poena Loveless As a 100% minnie character, i was extreemly disappointed that i even wasted the isk to buy large projectile turret and minmatar battleship skills. Trained them both to level IV before I even bought a bs and realised my folly. they are useless. And if you are into mission running its laughable at best. Practically need to have your target double webbed and painted to hit for half the 'great alpha' that we are supposed to have (--that gets beaten by Amarr BSs on the second shot...) I'm mostly level V. Dont change **** =p
Fafnir Drake Gallente Boob Heads Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.16 21:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Fafnir Drake on 16/05/2008 21:54:57 Yah, I'd agree, Tenaka. Each race has advantages and disadvantages. Now, my perspective on the races is this: Gallente: Consistently perform well almost everywhere. Our ships are fairly well rounded everywhere, if somewhat lacking in specialization. Generally, gallente pilots are happy, save with 2 exceptions: A) Recent Damp nerf was warrented, but nerfing damps so heavily without giving the specialized damp boats a skill bonus increase neutered the gallente recon. It's now used mostly as a support for caldari or minmi recons to enhance their effectiveness, and not on it's own as an E-war platform. B) Petty issue, but drone pilots will be irritated every so often by a patch that craps out the drone UI or AI. It's a minor thing, as it's not a constant or crippling, but it just gets under your skin sometimes. Caldari: Premier mission runners, and their ships generally work extremely well in gangs and fleets. Their support ships and ECM are second to none. The recent change to torps gave them a good option for close range slug-fests in BS vs BS fights. Downsides? A)Lacking in the solo department, with relatively slow ships overall, and limited mid-slots for basic tackling equipment. While mission runners and fleet fight folks will love caldari for their myriad fleet and support uses, the average pirate will train another race for better PvP solo capability. Ammar: Potent with most of their larger ships, and several tech II ships have gained a fearsome reputation for deadliness. Khanid Mk II also gave ammar pilots a far wider set of options in combat. More recent changes have increased their effectiveness, especially for dealing brutal damage to the unprepared.(Also, their lasers are pwetty ) Downsides? A) While the larger ships are solid, and many of their tech II ships excel, several are absolute rubbish, and their smaller ships, especially tech I, are generally more limited then other races. B) Ammar are largely either tank or gank. While performing well at either, blending the two is more difficult. And fitting requirements can be problematic without much time invested in fittings skills. C) Many ammar are unhappy with the laser cap-usage bonuses on many of their ships. -Now this is one I'm afraid I'm gonna have to stomp on. It's balanced. Lasers do more damage then most guns at a base level. Trust me, a high skilled ammar pilot can do an obscene amount of damage, especially with a gank fit. I think many of you would be happy if they simply swapped which was natural to lasers, and which was the skill bonus.(Cap usage and damage) Minmatar: Very versatile. Their ships can be adapted to do about anything. They have some of the best nano ships, and in 0.0, having a few minmie recons is a necessity to deal with the nano-fleets. Minmatar are also the kings of small ships. Having balancing slow distribution and needed no cap for their guns, they can fly many fits other races couldn't. Flip side of the coin? A) Artillery are generally sub-par. While they hit hard, their range isn't as good as most long-range weapons. This is amplified by the slow fire rate of artillery. You might only get one or two volleys before the target closes the distance, not a good thing with fairly low tracking. B) Their battleships are generally seen as sub-par. I don't know this for myself. But there's a reason: I barely see them. I'm gonna just assume the minmie pilots are right on this one. C) The biggie... Sorry minmie pilots, gonna put it bluntly.... Your capitals just suck. Plain and simple. Methinks your capital shipyard jockies are squandering half the minerals for cap construction; because a crap ton of minerals go in, and sure as hell doesn't look like they come out. I dunno though, perhaps duct-tape and plywood really is in the ship plans. Besides, those mechanics probably took out a mortgage for all those fancy cars and luxuries. ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2008.05.16 22:11:00 - [25] Its not that there's generally anything wrong in minmatar. Everybody knows its just a "Hard mode" and "Skill intensive" race. Dont ask yourself how or why, thats just being negative.
Greenbolt Minmatar Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.05.16 22:15:00 - [26] As a going on 3 year matar pilot Command ship and below class: Maybe look at the Munnin for a bit of loving and replace the belli with...well almost anything Battleships: Typhoons solid Mealstrom and Tempest auto boats are solid Mealstrom and Tempest Arty boats...dont preform at all. Artillary needs either a bigger clip size...or better ranges..or something. Capital ships: I fly the Nidh. Ok..where to start? Weak Tank..Likes being called primary..weak damage...overall logistics ship that likes going pop first. Lots of loving wanted. Dread : Its verticle...otherwise it needs lots of loving. Super Capital: Well..I wonder how many are in existance..because they are definately the weakest of their classes. So overall..I agree with most of the sentements posted.. CS and below (with the exception of bellicose and munnin) are fine Artillery needs loving Capital ships need serious loving Super Cap designers need to be shot and new ships developed. my 0.01 ikssk --------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.16 23:11:00 - [27] Originally by: *****pipe2000 Its not that there's generally anything wrong in minmatar. Everybody knows its just a "Hard mode" and "Skill intensive" race. Dont ask yourself how or why, thats just being negative. Once again I have to take offense at this statement. There ARE options in the matari lineup for lower SP ships. The real problem comes in when you start throwing in t2 ships because you have to train another tanking theory. If Minnie ships were indeed hard mode I doubt they'd have such success at PVP afterall. It takes just as many SP to excell at any race as it does Matari - the only catch is your t2 ships either excell (at high sp) or utterly suck (at low SP). You don't get any middle ground to play with there. I am closing in on 18m SP, mostly in caldari stuff and I'm just now beginning to not suck at PVP. Admittedly much of it is caused by the fact that I try very hard to disprove notions that MWD isn't mandatory. I maintain it isn't so long as you're comfortable with dying all the time.
no013 Minmatar Stormwolf Holdings LLC	Posted - 2008.05.17 00:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: *****pipe2000 Its not that there's generally anything wrong in minmatar. Everybody knows its just a "Hard mode" and "Skill intensive" race. Dont ask yourself how or why, thats just being negative. Once again I have to take offense at this statement. There ARE options in the matari lineup for lower SP ships. The real problem comes in when you start throwing in t2 ships because you have to train another tanking theory. If Minnie ships were indeed hard mode I doubt they'd have such success at PVP afterall. It takes just as many SP to excell at any race as it does Matari - the only catch is your t2 ships either excell (at high sp) or utterly suck (at low SP). You don't get any middle ground to play with there. I am closing in on 18m SP, mostly in caldari stuff and I'm just now beginning to not suck at PVP. Admittedly much of it is caused by the fact that I try very hard to disprove notions that MWD isn't mandatory. I maintain it isn't so long as you're comfortable with dying all the time. 18 mil sp isn't really that much when you need 42mil sp just to pilot a tier 1 battle ship the typhoon. You only have to train for shields, missles and maybe rails. Matars have to train shields, auto, missles, armor, drones and navigation. Artillery cannons = Worst Dps, tracking, range and ammo cap. No cap... Why do we need cap for anything els if your sniping.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:35:00 - [29] Edited by: Dotard on 17/05/2008 02:37:25 another great epic post goes poof after hitting "Post Reply" Reply's are gonna be one liners from now on. Just increase the sig radius on painters. That'd be fine. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Karenzi No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Derek Sigres I am closing in on 18m SP, mostly in caldari stuff and I'm just now beginning to not suck at PVP. Admittedly much of it is caused by the fact that I try very hard to disprove notions that MWD isn't mandatory. I maintain it isn't so long as you're comfortable with dying all the time. no offense but this just shows how little non-minmatar pilots understand about minmatar ships. everyones already explained it above but just realize youll never understand until you fly mimatar. 18m SP for a minnie pilot is NOTHING.

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