Originally by: Kiithnaras

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Edited by: Kiithnaras on 27/03/2009 02:45:11
/massive signed for original post

I'd do it just a wee bit different, though. I think that the Nag is quite capable of being quite the pain-dealer on its own without extra/different guns.

Naglfar: 1 extra mid, no change in lows, significant CPU boost, moderate Cap boost.

-It's possible to almost permatank a Naglfar, but it's not easy and you need several faction mods to do it, and even then, other capitals do it much better and easier.

Nidhoggur: 1 extra mid, 1 fewer low (Like how it was before), significant CPU boost, moderate Cap boost.

-This is the wierdest capital. It gets bonuses to shield transfers, but its CPU suffers so bad that it can't fit but one if you're lucky. Trying to fit a capital shield xfer with a shield tank on a Nidhoggur is like trying to pull teeth on a Sabretooth tiger, to boot. It's doable, but again, you need several faction mods to do it where with a Chimera such things aren't necessary. Here, permatanking is also possible, but again, it needs to be fully rigged and have faction mods to do the job to even pray to come close to the efficacy of other carriers. Tanking aside, its bonuses are geared toward being a logistics freak, but again, that CPU issue gets in the way of its ability to fit a tank and logistics mods.

P.S. - Capital modules should be 500-1000 m3. NOT 4,000 m3.

Edit - the main idea here is to have all capitals be a somewhat linear progression in terms of fitting, since they are aside from the Minmatar ones. Mids and lows of: Dreads (from Amarr to Caldari) - 4/8, 5/7, 5/6 (should be 6/6), 7/5. Carriers: 4/7, 5/6, 5/6 (should be 6/5), 7/4. CPU and Cap issues arise from inability to fit appropriate modules to compete with other ships of the same class in any respective area. If anything, the Nid's bonuses to logistics necessitate a hard, stable tank, since it is essentially useless unless on the front lines.

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Originally by: Kiithnaras

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Edited by: Kiithnaras on 28/03/2009 20:07:43
The numbers are in - with all skills at level 5, the Naglfar spits out more damage than any other dreadnought right now as it stands. With artillery and torps, it packs about 345 dps pre-siege, the next best being the Revelation at about 340 dps. With Autocannons, it packs about 435 dps vs the Moros' 425 dps. (assumes all level 5s and EMP/Multispec/Antimatter)

The downside is that it does indeed more skills than any Dread and has the worst tank of any Dread. Hence, my recommendation that all it needs is an extra mid, more CPU, and better Cap. But, that is my opinion, and it's a modest change as it doesn't screw over people that are already skilled for the Naglfar (i.e. Myself). The improved CPU and Cap allows for damage mods to be fitted in the lows without losing a permatank and without having to use serious Faction gear, too (outside of siege - permatanking in siege is nigh impossible. Doable, but you kill resists doing it unless you have carrier/logistics energy support).

If it was made to 3 turret slots with 5%/lvl damage, at level 5, the Nag would then do 480 dps with autocannons. but only 310 dps with artillery. Just throwing that out there.

But yes, I still agree principally with the base argument - Minmatar capitals should all be shield tanked at the very least with comparable ease. I personally think that the extra training for both capital artillery and citadel torps is an adequate tradeoff for the best dread damage in the game if only it could tank as easily as the other dreads.

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Originally by: Kiithnaras

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Nope. This is in EFT with All Level 5 skills. The main reason that the Nag does so much better than other dreads is that it uses four weapons instead of three. 2 Proj, 2 Torps, and an extra slot for the siege mod. It's the only dread with 5 highs. I did not, in that instance, throw damage mods into the mix. That is only the ships themselves plus weapons @ max skills across the board, as well as top-damage non-faction ammo. I did not include the siege mode damage because it is moot - all dreads get the same damage boost from siege mode.

However, as I was writing that, I re-did it WITH siege mode...and the DPS results are the same. Using long-range turrets, The Nag takes the cake at 2497, the Rev is a close second at 2470 (Although lack of need to reload may make that better), the Moros is kinda sad at 1998, and the Phoenix is **** poor at 1955.

With short-range turrets, the Nag again wins at 3163, Moros in second with 3088, Revelation with 2823, and the Phoenix again loses with 2127 (one Torp swapped for an Ion Siege).

So yeah, the Nag's damage is not bad, per se. You just need to do 2-3 times the training to get it better than everyone else's, and even then, your tanking ability in a Nag is awful in relation to other Dreads. That's all I'm saying. ..... *weeps at the sorry state of Minnie Caps*

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Originally by: Kiithnaras

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Edited by: Kiithnaras on 28/03/2009 20:07:43
The numbers are in - with all skills at level 5, the Naglfar spits out more damage than any other dreadnought right now as it stands. With artillery and torps, it packs about 345 dps pre-siege, the next best being the Revelation at about 340 dps. With Autocannons, it packs about 435 dps vs the Moros' 425 dps. (assumes all level 5s and EMP/Multispec/Antimatter)

The downside is that it does indeed more skills than any Dread and has the worst tank of any Dread. Hence, my recommendation that all it needs is an extra mid, more CPU, and better Cap. But, that is my opinion, and it's a modest change as it doesn't screw over people that are already skilled for the Naglfar (i.e. Myself). The improved CPU and Cap allows for damage mods to be fitted in the lows without losing a permatank and without having to use serious Faction gear, too (outside of siege - permatanking in siege is nigh impossible. Doable, but you kill resists doing it unless you have carrier/logistics energy support).

If it was made to 3 turret slots with 5%/lvl damage, at level 5, the Nag would then do 480 dps with autocannons. but only 310 dps with artillery. Just throwing that out there.

But yes, I still agree principally with the base argument - Minmatar capitals should all be shield tanked at the very least with comparable ease. I personally think that the extra training for both capital artillery and citadel torps is an adequate tradeoff for the best dread damage in the game if only it could tank as easily as the other dreads.

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