Amarr capitals: All capitals armor tank, dreads need Large energy wep V, cap skills need to be focused on.

Caldari capitals: All capitals shield tank, dreads need torps V.

Gallente capitals: All capitals armor tank, dreads need Large hybrid wep V, drone skills need to be focused on.

Minmatar capitals: Dreadnaughts and supercaps are shield tanked while the nidhoggur is primarily armor tanked, dreads need torps V and large projectile V.

• Cpu boost
  2 extra mid slots, one less low slot
  A complete shift to projectile only weapons, OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both
  

• CPU and pg boost
  1 extra mid slots
  Capacitor boost (the only thing it's good at is remote repping, give it the capacitor to do so)
  Increase the bonus from the ship so that it's boosting potential is a lot higher

Originally by: nlewis

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jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were

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Originally by: nlewis

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jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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As for the Ragnarok, yeah, its fleet bonus is really lame. Maybe if it was 15% per level? I dunno. I'd suggest a speed/mass bonus, but speed is one thing this game hardly needs more of until they come up with a better counter than the ones that exist as of now. You could also do something really crazy like a flat fleet ROF bonus(say, 2% per level), but that might get a little overpowered. But the current bonus sucks.

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Originally by: nlewis

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jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were

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Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo

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How about reducing build costs but retaining it's apparent 'crapiness'?

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Originally by: RoCkEt X

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minmatar have always needed a large variety of skills to fly, its like saying they should fix it becuase the phoon needs armor skills, and drone skills - and the maelstrom needs gun and shield skills. its just the way minmatar has always been - its not just the caps.

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Originally by: Jacque Custeau

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Minmatar ships generally have less capacitor and tanking abilities than the other races, but this has always been justified by projectiles not needing any cap and superior agility and speed.

In the case of the Nidhoggur and the Hel, there are no projectile guns, and the speed is pathetic. CCP should either make all carriers have the same cap (they already all have the same number of high slots) or reduce the mass of those ships to 10% of their current value so they can nano like other matari ships.

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Originally by: RobbehT

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/Signed Well put together post about the minmatar capital problems, only thing going for them is how sexy they look! but on that note, bring back the sharks teeth on the niddy!!

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Originally by: mucklavee

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wtf!! only 24 supporters so far!! this proves everyone hates us minmatar we should just make a post to eradicate the minmatar race and see how many people support that

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Originally by: Stefan F

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Edited by: Stefan F on 31/05/2008 18:45:07
Bull****.

Minnie gets great small ships for pvp and sucky large ones
Amarr gets sucky small ships for pvp and great large ones.

You should have trained amarr now go whine somewhere else please.

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Originally by: Yorda

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Originally by: Stefan F

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Edited by: Stefan F on 31/05/2008 18:45:07
Bull****.

Minnie gets great small ships for pvp and sucky large ones
Amarr gets sucky small ships for pvp and great large ones.

You should have trained amarr now go whine somewhere else please.

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Um... amarr interceptors are fine, the sac and zealot are awsome, the curse is okay, the interdictor is fine for bubbling, their battleships are awsome, and their commandships/battlecruisers are okay. I really dont see these "sucky small ships".

Everything above cruisers for minmatar arn't even worth training.

I'd love for some CSM support for minmatar capitals.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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So Amarrian HACs, BC's, CSes, BBs, and capitals are good, but nothing below that rates better than a "fine"(and one of those fines is for a dictor being able to bubble)? I think you just proved his point.

Also, I'm rather a fan of the Sleip and the Mael - I don't fly Minmatar, but they looks really sweet on EFT, and my Min-flying buddies agree. That said, the capitals are definitely crap.

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Originally by: Yorda

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All AFs suck, destroyers for all races are terrible, t1 frigs are basically the same, the new omen is a decent t1 cruiser, the pilgrim is terrible but I wouldn't say amarr has it so much worse than minmatar that it deserves it's capitals to be vastly better than minmatar's.

The Sleip is one of those ships that you have to put a decent amount of money down on to make good, and is only really good in very small fights. The Mael is an okay PvE ship but I'd take a tempest over it in most PvP fights.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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I didn't say Amarr deserved to have pwnmobile capitals while Minmatar got crap. I agree, there's some rebalancing needed there - I did support this thread, after all. I'm just saying, from what I can tell, the Minmatar are very good at subcapital fighting.

As for the Sleip and Mael, yeah, they're not for all situations, though I think you're a bit quick to write off the Mael for PvP. But the raw numbers they put out are terrifying.

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Originally by: Jeats Cheats

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I like these proposed changes

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Originally by: Dav Varan

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Just a quick question.

The op states that the Nag needs to use 4 damage mods to compete with the other Dreads

How can this be when the Nag starts with 33% more firepower than other dreads due to 4 weapons instead of 3 ?

Assuming tech II modules.

With todays stacking penalties 3 bcu on a phoenix would only give a total damage modifier of 1.57
3 weapons * 1.57 = 4.71

Compared to a nagflar with 1 bcu and 1 gyro
4 weapons * 1.2 = 4.8

So now you 2 extra slots for tanking whether you go shield or armor I dont know.

But do you still say the Nag needs love ?.

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Originally by: Lopin Acheteur

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The naglfar does more damage than any of the other dreads at an effective POS siege range (all the others only have 4 high slots, 3 for weapons, the naglfar has 5 high slots, for 4 weapons.). You are forgetting that the Naglfar can fit close range weapons and still be effective, while blasters and pulses tend to come in under the range required to be effective in a POS siege and useless unless you are ontop of enemy capitals in a capital fight.

If you were to balance it to require just guns, you would need to remove a high slot like all the other dreads, then you could give double damage bonuses instead of the current split bonuses. There is a danger of making all the dreads too generic though, I did like the flavour the split system gave. The phoenix does the lowest damage, but it is forgiving of range. The Moros does excellent drone damage, but it can't use blasters effectively in most situations, it also has a weaker tank than the revelation. The Revelation is probably the best dread out there for sieges, not requiring you to keep pressing fire, having a good range and tanking well.

The Nidhoggur is already arguably the best carrier out there for the usual remote repping circlejerk setups that you see these days, giving it an extra mid would be unbalanced, it had one removed to give it an extra low. I personally think this was a mistake, given that there are already two armor tanking carriers, and this as you point out means training another skillset, although being minmatar you should probably be used to this. Faster regen on the Nidhoggur also suits its role as the best remote repping carrier out there, being as the cap trick doesn't really work on capital ships, it will easily out rep the other carriers, the Thanatos's damage bonus isn't hugely significant anymore (in days of assigned fighters from behind POS shields it was). With the change to an armor tank, the CPU isn't really an issue, as it isn't on the archon or thanatos.

ALL capital ships need more CPU, especially the ones that shield tank you need fitting mods on the Phoenix/Chimera still also, which for a capital ship is ridiculous. Grid as far as I'm aware is a total non issue, I've never seen anyone run out of grid on any potential capital ship fit.

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Originally by: Yorda

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Plug it into EFT and take a look. There are two glaring problems with the nags split weapon bonus. First, every other dread has two bonuses for it's gun type, the nag has to one ship bonus for each of it's weapon type. Now take any of the other dreads, if they fit 2 damage mods those damage mods apply to all 3 of thier weapons. The Nag fits two damage and it either only applies to 2 of it's weapons, or each weapon only gets 1 damage mod. To get the same effect as 2 damage mods on all of it's weapons, it needs to fit 4 damage mods (2 for each weapon).

Also the relatively low dps of both projectile weapons and capital torps doesn't help the nag's dps.

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Originally by: Dav Varan

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I dont have access to EFT atm can you put up the dps numbers for the ranged ship setups your talking about please

Rail moros v Beam Rev v Citadel Phoenix v ( Arty/Citadel ) Nag

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Originally by: Arkady Sadik

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Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/06/2008 19:40:55

Originally by: Dav Varan

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I dont have access to EFT atm can you put up the dps numbers for the ranged ship setups your talking about please

Rail moros v Beam Rev v Citadel Phoenix v ( Arty/Citadel ) Nag

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Long-range dreads with 3x damage mod (Naglfar with 2x BCU, 1x Gyro, best combo), closest-range ammo, Garde IIs, all skills at 5. As the Republic Fleet XL ammo has been removed from LP stores shortly after the introduction for reasons beyond me, the Naglfar and Phoenix can not use faction ammo. I added in parens the dps numbers if Moros/Rev use faction ammo.

Phoenix - 3531 dps
Naglfar - 3682 dps
Moros - 4352 dps (4848 dps)
Revelation - 4383 dps (4996 dps)

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Originally by: Yorda

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Oh, did I mention that extra fourth turret also means you use 133% ammo too (in comparison to the moros / phoenix)? That's great when your cargohold is full up of stront / fuel / ammo.

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Originally by: Arkady Sadik

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Phoenix - 3531 dps
Naglfar - 3682 dps
Moros - 4352 dps (4848 dps)
Revelation - 4383 dps (4996 dps)

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Originally by: Yorda

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...

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Dreads:
Revelation and Moros have massive cap use. Nag uses no cap for guns. They need more cap mods than nag. Usually dread fit to be cap stable with 3 guns + 1 cap rep to avoid lag. That is a massive disadvatage for caldari.

Nags do not shield tank. For example, go to RA killboard, look up at nag losses. On the first page of dread losses, all nags are armor tanked. So all the talk about fittings is wrong.

Shield tanking needs a rank 4 100% useless skill(unlike missile skills) to be at level 5. Moros needs t2 sentry drones to make the most out of it. Hardest training times? most likely, but only slightly.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Ok, the minmatar capitals are not the very best of all, but they are decent. No one will ever say to a minmatar spec char to train some other race's capitals. Minor boosts to nid/nag such as bigger armor hp at the expense of shield hp or a slight increase for capital projectile(5%-10%?) is ok and understandable, but major boosts such as adding slots are not required.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Nags do not shield tank. For example, go to RA killboard, look up at nag losses. On the first page of dread losses, all nags are armor tanked. So all the talk about fittings is wrong.

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Originally by: Porks

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RA extensively use shield tanks for their Nags, so you're quite wrong.

One of the Naglfar's main problems is that there's quite a large difference between certain dreads, and they're at the bottom.

For example, let's compare the top and the bottom:

Revelation
2,149,645 eHP
5477 dps sustained tank (lasts ~6 minutes while firing)
6317 dps outgoing (6580 with sentries)
Very much cap stable while firing (+112/-77)
Fits with almost 30% cpu and pg free.
1700m2 sigrad

Naglfar
2,091,306 eHP
1348 dps sustained tank (10577 burst - lasts ~2mins)
4020 dps outgoing (4283 with sentries)
Requires all faction lows to fit plus a 1-3% cpu implant.
1850m2 sigrad

Note that this is with similar care to fittings: both have faction lows though only the naglfar requires it, both use faction ammo (though only 2 of the naglfar's guns can use faction ammo - there are no faction torps). Both are done using an all-5 character.


BUT I GUESS IT'S OKAY BECAUSE THE NAGLFAR CAN ALIGN A FULL 2.7 SECONDS FASTER WOOTAH MINMATAR AGILITY (30.4s/27.7s)

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Signing this even though I'm dumb enough to train for minnie caps anyway

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Originally by: Yorda

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I plugged in the standard goon fitting

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Originally by: GeneralNukeEm

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CONSPIRACY - Goons have more prospective minmatar capital pilots than those of any other race, c/d

But yes minnie caps suck

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Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz

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When I buy new characters, I expect them to have BS V trained, in case I want to take them to capitals. I wish I realized what a stupid idea that is when it comes to minmatar pilots :P

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Originally by: Yorda

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"Stuff"

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Originally by: Zareph

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Absolutely, right now if you're a Minnie it makes better sense to stop at BS4 and then go start Amarr or something. Almost take less time.

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Originally by: Domania

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I'll agree with the fact the Nidhoggur needs it's bonus boosted. A 5% less cap need wouldn't make me happy. I love the fact that I can remote boost more than any carrier on the field allowing people needing reps a better chance of living on the field. I would rather see the 5% be turned to a 10%. It's support role would be so much better.

What would be your suggestion for the Hel?

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Originally by: Voculus

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Everything Minmatar, from Battleships, upward need a boost, but this definitely gets a Please visit your user settings to re-enable images..

The split weapon system on the Naglfar is a sick joke, and a poorly-thought design.

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Originally by: Taedron

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Minmatar capital ships are terrible.

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Originally by: Illyankesh

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/agree

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Originally by: Orb Lati

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So we all agree that the Naglfa is terrible at the moment.
In the interest of keeping this thread active, What needs to be done to fix it?

I'm thinking it might not be the capitals that need a buff but the weapon systems them selves. If Capital Artillery and Auto cannons had a built in Gyro II buff would this mitigate their low DPS.
I would even suggest a minor buff to the damage from the Citidal Torp Launcher as well as well dependent on not over powering the Phoenix which i hear also has underwhelming damage potential.

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• Objective - weaker than average tank but greater than average dps.

• Drop a mid slot for two low slots. Turn it into an clear armor tanker by slot layout changes.

• Do not buff Citadel Torpedoes but buff Capital Artillery substantially.

Quote:

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OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both

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Originally by: Zurin Arctus

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Quote:

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OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both

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I stopped reading there.



Give us a break, Minny trolls. You're still one of the two best PvP races in the game.

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Originally by: Myrkala

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/signed

The argument about "Hardest to train for -> Should be best" sounds good.

But I would really like to see this:


1. Give the naglfar 3 Turret (and 3 Missile Hardpoints)

Argument:

Gives the pilots the option to train for either weapon system, giving them options and also opening the doors a bit wider for Minmatar Pilots who want to train for them, shortening the time it takes to train.

3 Turret slots is pretty obvious, split weapon system on a dread is just idiotic, I can't see any reason for having one on a dread.

Giving the option to use launchers as well follows the minmatar way of being "versatile."

2. Boost fittings

Quote OP.

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Originally by: Zurin Arctus

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Quote:

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OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both

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I stopped reading there.



Give us a break, Minny trolls. You're still one of the two best PvP races in the game.

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Originally by: Yorda

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Edited by: Yorda on 31/05/2008 22:18:33

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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So Amarrian HACs, BC's, CSes, BBs, and capitals are good, but nothing below that rates better than a "fine"(and one of those fines is for a dictor being able to bubble)? I think you just proved his point.

Also, I'm rather a fan of the Sleip and the Mael - I don't fly Minmatar, but they looks really sweet on EFT, and my Min-flying buddies agree. That said, the capitals are definitely crap.

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All AFs suck, destroyers for all races are terrible, t1 frigs are basically the same, the new omen is a decent t1 cruiser, the pilgrim is terrible but I wouldn't say amarr has it so much worse than minmatar that it deserves it's capitals to be vastly better than minmatar's.

The Sleip is one of those ships that you have to put a decent amount of money down on to make good, and is only really good in very small fights. The Mael is an okay PvE ship but I'd take a tempest over it in most PvP fights.

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Originally by: Namurung

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uh wow, are you one of those noobs who tried using a destroyer with low gunnery skills and destroyer L1? cause I can tell you right now, appropriately used destroyers pwn face. tackler? gone. AF on your primaried? gone.

before you go making generalizations, try to use the ship, oh and fit it well. destroyers can use much better tanking modules than a frig vessel. if you're dying too fast in a desy, you suck at fitting and/or skills.

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Originally by: Sir Ibex

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Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)

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Originally by: Sir Ibex

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Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.

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Originally by: Yorda

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.

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Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: Yorda

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.

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Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...

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Kinda seems like something you said. That was you, wasn't it?

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: Yorda

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.

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Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...

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Kinda seems like something you said. That was you, wasn't it?

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Seems it needs repeating since its obviously not getting through.

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Originally by: Sir Ibex

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Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)

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Originally by: Mia Kahn

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IMO:

4 Highs, 3 Turrets, 0 Missiles
6 Mids
6 Lows

7.5% Capital Projectile RoF, 5% Capital Projectile Damage

Bang! You have a big Tempest, that can do light tank shield tank + high dps, or armor tank + comparable dps to the other dreads. Even with this considerable bonus, Capital Projectiles may need a small boost to bring them in line with the other dreads.

Also capital autocannons really need to be looked at, as fighting in falloff isn't really a considerable tactic when your primary purpose is to be anchored in one place due to siege, therefore the high paper DPS of capital autos means nothing because you will at least be fighting at some range.

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Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky

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against,

the tank needs looking at, but not the wepon systems - they are in line with the way they are supposed to work (choise of damage type). Adding and subtracting slots is not the answer, neither is removing the citadel launchers. A solution, if there is one that is needed, has to work with the current ship.

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Originally by: Orb Lati

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The Naglfa wont get a change to the missile/turret slot layout as it would require a re-model of the hull.

The changes will either be in the guns themselves, the ship stats/bonuses or in the mid/low slot ratio/count.

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Originally by: Yorda

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stuff ... mostly crap

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Originally by: Setana Manoro

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Naglfar is not as crap as some other dreads.

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Originally by: Setana Manoro

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Naglfar is not as crap as some other dreads.

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Care to elaborate on this one? All the evidence indicates its the worst of the 4, in both tanking and DPS.

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Originally by: Bane Glorious

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I was hoping to just fit this into my "Capital Ships Online" topic, but unfortunately that got voted down for the Iceland meeting. However, I will try to push this issue forward for the August meeting.

I would prefer to label it as balance between dreads/carriers within their classes, however.

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Originally by: Nullshadow

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;)

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Originally by: SickSeven

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I'm going to keep saying this: Why is it assumed Minmatar players have to train MORE skills to be competitive??

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Originally by: Nullshadow

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Edited by: Nullshadow on 30/06/2008 19:31:56
...OTOH from a lore perspective I think that the Minmatar capitals should remain weaker overall. The Minmatar have only been free of the Amarr for 125 years now, and as such all of our ship designs are at most a couple of centuries old. By contrast the other races have been working on their ship designs for millenia;

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Originally by: Nullshadow

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I agree on the advances front. It's one of the cooler things about the history that is the live time of Eve - we have seen significant progress in technology over the last five years. Even if it is unreasonably fast for real technological discoveries it hooks me, moreso than the arbitrary "this new expansion has x-many new levels!" of most MMOs. It could also be used to justify fixes to the Nagl. Or we can just hope for the apparently-superior Thukker Nagl to be sold to pod pilots. =D

Originally by: SickSeven

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I'm going to keep saying this: Why is it assumed Minmatar players have to train MORE skills to be competitive??

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I can't argue with you, because it is nonsensical. I can see no good justification in either game mechanics terms nor in lore terms* for penalizing Minmatar skill-wise. I would be happy to chime in support of you in a (separate) thread on the insanity that is Minmatar skill requirements, even though I doubt that CCP would ever do a massive overhaul of an entire race. I hinted at my own opinion in the prior post by saying that I thought a (smaller) all-proj dread would have made more sense. ;) My lore-tainted take is that we should have a marginally weaker ship with significant mobility advantages (27 seconds vs. 30 or whatever it is for align does NOT cut it) that takes no more time to train for than other races' capitals - i.e. a unified tank style and a focused weapon slotting and bonuses.

OTOH, having had to master projectiles & missiles & drones & armor tank & shield tank & core skills has made it easy for me to cross-train. I still fly Minnie ships best, but now I can take almost anything t1 in the game for a spin, fit it mostly with t2, and fight well in it. For an altaholic like me, being Minmatar has made Eve one of only two online games that I've played where I have an actual "main" character and enjoy it.


* Actually in lore terms I'd think that one of our racial weapons should be lasers and we should be focused on armor tanking. Minmatar slaves help build and maintain all of those ships and weapons for the Amarr, and have done so for 700 years, so you'd think that we'd be experts at those. Plus many if not most of the ships and modules we used in the rebellion would have been stolen from the Amarr, and the material support we received from the Gallente probably wasn't either missiles or projectiles since they use neither themselves. It's ironic that things are entirely reversed and many Amarr ship fits use projectiles.

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Originally by: Bane Glorious

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I was hoping to just fit this into my "Capital Ships Online" topic, but unfortunately that got voted down for the Iceland meeting. However, I will try to push this issue forward for the August meeting.

I would prefer to label it as balance between dreads/carriers within their classes, however.

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Originally by: Bane Glorious

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This issue passed in the meeting earlier today and will be brought to CCP's attention in August.

woo

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Originally by: Bad Harlequin

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Well presented. I hear a lot of "naglfar lol" "well at least it's vertical" but no one's articulated why very well. Thanks!

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Originally by: Yorda

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Originally by: RobbehT

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/Signed Well put together post about the minmatar capital problems, only thing going for them is how sexy they look! but on that note, bring back the sharks teeth on the niddy!!

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I love the way the hel looks, wish all the motherships where a bit bigger though. Like in the cinematic trailer for trinity it showed the hell in the middle of the huge fleet and that thing looked like the size of a titan, in game it's only a bit bigger than the nidhoggur though.

Also never really liked the way the naglfar looked.

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Originally by: Yorda

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As you can see, minmatar capitals in general need a good review. Their training time is rediculous in comparison to other races, and you get little to no benefit from it. I propose a few things:


Naglfar:

• Significant Cpu boost


• 2 extra mid slots, one less low slot


• A complete shift to projectile only weapons, OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both
  

Nidhoggur:

• CPU boost


• 2 extra mid slots, one less low slot


• Capacitor boost (the only thing it's good at is remote repping, give it the capacitor to do so)


• Increase the bonus from the ship so that it's boosting potential is a higher (10% per level instead of 5%) or add a 5% less capacitor usage ontop of the 5% boost and skip the third change.

tl;dr Fix the naglfar and nidhoggur.

EDIT: The sig bonus on the Ragnarok is pretty terrible, I think a agility would be better.

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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but meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

I don't have amazing shield skills!!!! If they make the nid shield tanker it will add a whole slew of skills I need to train. =/

I still support a boost but there has got to be a better way......

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Originally by: Gilgamoth

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I don't mind training the extra skills to Armour/Shield tank and fire Guns/Missiles/Drones, but I don't want to waste all that time on the worst caps in game.

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Originally by: Daveydweeb

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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but meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

I don't have amazing shield skills!!!! If they make the nid shield tanker it will add a whole slew of skills I need to train. =/

I still support a boost but there has got to be a better way......

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They take like three weeks, you scrub.

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Originally by: Cpt Lumis

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Anyone know when they will make this improvement I have a minny cap now But have not trained for the cit torps yet. If they change that I would Like to know ASAP so I dont have to. If they dont change it. I may just train for the gallente dread. Even know the minny one looks awsome.

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Originally by: Yorda

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Originally by: RoCkEt X

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minmatar have always needed a large variety of skills to fly, its like saying they should fix it becuase the phoon needs armor skills, and drone skills - and the maelstrom needs gun and shield skills. its just the way minmatar has always been - its not just the caps.

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That's fine, but with faction damage mods (4 on a nag, 2 on the other dreads) and all skills level V the naglfar does allmost 20% less damage (close to 1000 less dps). It just doesn't make sense that it has the weakest tank, second lowest dps, lowest alpha, and takes the longest to train for.

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