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Amastat Omegatech	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:32:00 - [1] High-sec Salvage Theft has become a rapidly growing and very popular profession - it is not the most respected profession in EVE, nor the most honest profession, but it's also turned to be a very profitable profession, and is no doubt the safest profession in EVE next to production, trading, and research. In a very popular and large issue/debate, is the salvage mechanics that make this profession so easy and so popular. On one side is the salvage thief on the defensive. They have decent ISK, a constant supply of it, and it has nearly no risk at all. Chances are, the majority of working salvage thief's are Alternate Characters, and a lot of them are in NPC corporations. The only situations that puts a salvage thief's assets/ISK at risk is when A) a wardec is issued, B) the salvage thief is suicide bombed. Yes, that's it - you can see why this is a popular profession. What salvage thiefs want - is to just be left alone, keep things as they are, don't change the system. The issue is that when a wardec is issued, salvage theifs just need to fit warpcore stabilizers. They are in fast probe frigates, they are hard to catch, hard to kill. The only way a wardec can effectively harm a salvage thief, is by making it impossible for them to do what they do, if a dedicated system-wide is provided by the attackers. The other problem is that no one wants to suicide bomb them, or they are in the wrong ships at the wrong time to try and do that - and it is pointless because 99% of the common salvage theif's net worth is in stations with the rest of their salvage, not on their 1,000,000.00 ISK ship. On one side, is the mission-runners, who feel that it's unbalanced, unfair, and too risk-free that Salvage Thiefs. CCP has made it very clear that they feel that salvage mechanics are fine where they are, and it doesn't even need to be discussed over. Regardless of this, mission-runners understand CCP's stance on this - however, they do not agree that CCP's judgement on this is at all sound, in fact it is thought by many to be very flawed, unbalanced, and favoritism. What the mission runners want: some sort of flag after someone salvages their wreck, so they have some peace of mind they can at least retaliate with some chance of liberating their cargo, and putting balance between the two professions as it should be. The mission-runner community against this - one phrase that will sum up their feelings on this: Great Frustration, and Utterly Disgusted Great frustration, to the point where some mission runners - including myself - are seriously considering abandoning the profession, and moving into a other. It has literally reached the point where there is so many thief's in high-sec, that It turns out we can make more, sometimes a lot more, ISK doing other things. Utterly Disgusted, with CCP's refusal to discuss this topic and the impact it is having on mission runners, and how horribly distorted the concept of risk-versus-reward is due to this mechanic, and how immensely one-sided it is. The one thing left, which in a lot of ways mission runners has already exercised, is Desperation. An example is, the only effective counter measure to prevent a salvage thief from stealing, is blowing up your own wrecks - so in the very least, no party gains from this at all. The next level of desperation will be abandoning the mission running industry, and going into another profession - which is what could happen soon on a growing scale. Why this is: because there is better ISK in other fields, since the majority of salvage is being lost, and this is the only effective means to combat salvage thief's - starving them. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu
Amastat Omegatech	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:33:00 - [2] Reserved. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:35:00 - [3] Been stolen from once, why? I don't mish in Motsu. Case closed. Next caller. Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
Louis deGuerre Chimera Tech	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:37:00 - [4] yawns You know CCP won't change a thing so why bother posting at all ? I have no issue at all with salvage ninjas and I sadly spend a lot of time running missions instead of PvP. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Legion of Shadow is looking for recruits.
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Amastat The next level of desperation will be abandoning the mission running industry, and going into another profession - which is what could happen soon on a growing scale. Why this is: because there is better ISK in other fields, since the majority of salvage is being lost, and this is the only effective means to combat salvage thief's - starving them. Thats not desperation - that is called "Adapting". It is how people become successful. The ones that keep on bashing their heads against the wall, crying all the time "Why can't you change things so what I am doing makes me successful" are called "Failures".
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:41:00 - [6] Edited by: Furb Killer on 06/06/2008 08:41:23 Been stolen from never, i dont mission in hubs. Often enough i just ask in local if anyone is intrested in salvaging the mission. They happy, and i dont care because i dont salvage 95% of the missions anyway. Serpentis/guristas salvage gets me much less isk than just running the mission, bloodraider bit less, and angel about the same - bit more than running mission. Salvage thiefs also got to scan the mission runner (not that much work, but it also means changing ship), and then hope the mission runner is doing a good mission and you dont end up in recon 3/3. You say it is the safest profession in eve where you got to undock. How exactly is it safe to be in an area with a group of npc battleships and smaller ships with barely a tank?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:44:00 - [7] I'm sorry, you mean highsec isn't made of absolute safety anymore? Gee wiz, time for a whine! I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
Amastat Omegatech	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Louis deGuerre yawns You know CCP won't change a thing so why bother posting at all ? I have no issue at all with salvage ninjas and I sadly spend a lot of time running missions instead of PvP. Yea - but I'm just saying what is is, something for people to think about a few months later. Maybe mission runners will wise up and band together, actually watch each others back from this problem - and try to campaign against it collectively - this is the only chance we have. This is why we are overwhelmingly frustrated, because CCP intentionally ignores this. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu
Dr NOe	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:48:00 - [9] Been doing missions. And Salvaged all of them. Not once had a Ninja. If its so rampant as you say how come i have not been hit with this massive crime wave?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:48:00 - [10] Originally by: Amastat I'm also concerned that if mission running industry suffers a steep decline, that this could hurt the economy in a lot of ways. However, this obviously is not good for theifs because they are losing their crops to harvest, but all in all it will be bad for everyone - no one person. Mission running decline hurting the economy? If anything it will make it healthier, less flow of ISK = less inflation. I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
Amastat Omegatech	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:50:00 - [11] Edited by: Amastat on 06/06/2008 08:51:49 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Amastat I'm also concerned that if mission running industry suffers a steep decline, that this could hurt the economy in a lot of ways. However, this obviously is not good for theifs because they are losing their crops to harvest, but all in all it will be bad for everyone - no one person. Mission running decline hurting the economy? If anything it will make it healthier, less flow of ISK = less inflation. I'm having a hard time seeing how a steep drop in raw materials will help. That would cause there to be less supply of minerals, modules, and salvage in particular. What happens if all that supply disappears while a huge demand remains? Either way - I have little or nothing to complain about anymore, because I'm giving up mission running. More could follow in a few months maybe, and you can bet that you will see more and more thief's and even see them outside the mission hubs. Sorry to the mission runners on the edge of high sec who have no idea there is a tidal wave of thiefs heading straight for them, I thought I was safe too and I was dead-wrong. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:50:00 - [12] Edited by: Furb Killer on 06/06/2008 08:52:43 Edited by: Furb Killer on 06/06/2008 08:51:55 How exactly will this be death of mission running? Get out of motsu/dodixie, no problem anymore. Dont salvage, or even ask in local if anyone wants to salvage, you dont need to care about salvage thiefs. Salvaging isnt that good compared to just running the mission, and it is even more boring than running the mission Get a marauder. Edit: Minerals will be mined Modules will be built (only meta 3-4 modules will increase in price) Salvage will indeed decrease if no one runs missions anymore. But then there also arent salvage thiefs and you can run missions again. Troll?
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Amastat What happens if all that supply disappears while a huge demand remains? OH NOES THE SKY IS FALLING. Or perhaps some wily players will spot the demand and start working on a supply. Economies are not static things you know - they are dynamic. You cannot just say "if I change this one variable" - because as you move your variable all the others changes too. This is why modeling economies is a complex and formidable task.
AKULA UrQuan Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:57:00 - [14] Wrecks do not belong to the mission runner, only the loot contained inside. Simple as that.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:57:00 - [15] But the reason they can thieve the wrecks is because the carebears CRIED until CCP changed it so that you could salvage an unlooted wreck. So now CCP gave them what they wished for, they are crying? Just wow..... --- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:59:00 - [16] How about, when somebody CONCORD's the wreck + loot is free for everybody. UNLESS somebody salvages it. The resultant can gives the taker aggro against the CONCORDed guys corp. That's a tiny deal, but still bigger than the one you're whining about. --- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:59:00 - [17] an empire mission runner complaining about a no-risk career, now even I'm suprised at that!!
Chzandri	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:00:00 - [18] how about hiring two newbies, giving them two destroyers, and taking them along on the missions so that they can get to salvaging right after? your newbies will quickly cover a lot of wrecks in two dessies, you get some portion of salvage material and make two newbies very happy by sharing some of it with them, and you'll make the salvage thieves very frustrated ... this is a much better alternative than going around blowing your own wrecks up you gotta agree
MinmatarCitizen 90242 THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:04:00 - [19] Lol mission runners complaining about other people making easy ISK.
Kransthow Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:05:00 - [20] these carebear tears are delicious My alt is "Is Forporn"
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Kransthow these carebear tears are delicious Poor carebears - not only are people stealing their salvage: Now you are eating their tears. Will the suffering never end for these misunderstood and put upon empire dwellers....
Kransthow Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Luh Windan Originally by: Kransthow these carebear tears are delicious Poor carebears - not only are people stealing their salvage: Now you are eating their tears. Will the suffering never end for these misunderstood and put upon empire dwellers.... no My alt is "Is Forporn"
Raymond Dawkins School of Applied Fail	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:14:00 - [23] tl;dr ________ kthxbye
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Amastat What happens if all that supply disappears while a huge demand remains? It's a durable good. A big supply of all market resources in Eve is the secondhand market. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:18:00 - [25] Edited by: Merdaneth on 06/06/2008 09:19:32 Agreed. I have the same problem with other miners mining my asteroids in belts: mineral thieves. As with salvage thieves, High-sec Mineral Theft has also become a rapidly growing and very popular profession - it is not the most respected profession in EVE, nor the most honest profession, but it's also turned to be a very profitable profession, and is no doubt the safest profession in EVE next to production, trading, and research. In a very popular and large issue/debate, is the mining mechanics that make this profession so easy and so popular. On one side is the mineral thief on the defensive. They have decent ISK, a constant supply of it, and it has nearly no risk at all. Chances are, the majority of working mineral thief's are Alternate Characters, and a lot of them are in NPC corporations. The only situations that puts a mineral thief's assets/ISK at risk is when A) a wardec is issued, B) the mineral thief is suicide bombed. Yes, that's it - you can see why this is a popular profession. What mineral thiefs want - is to just be left alone, keep things as they are, don't change the system. The mining community against this - one phrase that will sum up their feelings on this: Great Frustration, and Utterly Disgusted Great frustration, to the point where some miners - including myself - are seriously considering abandoning the profession, and moving into a other. It has literally reached the point where there is so many miners in high-sec, that it turns out we can make more, sometimes a lot more, ISK doing other things. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
AKULA UrQuan Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:23:00 - [26] Rofl. That was great.
ramzahn	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:26:00 - [27] The problem, as I see it, is more that people are able to barge into your mission in the first place. Why is this made possible? Why don't missions happen in secluded rooms where no-one else has entrance? Why is it named "Deadspace" if it is just normal space? I think this is a deliberate attempt to get people off missions and more into PvP.
Armoured C Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:32:00 - [28] Edited by: Armoured C on 06/06/2008 09:32:20 i salvage on teh go with my domi through the mission plus if you all stop missioning that would be great that should stop lots of lag so iim in favour of more salvage ninjas
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:32:00 - [29] posting in a "my salvage was stolen thread" no 167543. Dude gtfo no one cares and you are just like all the other whiners that posted these kind of threads before you.
CRUSH BOSS Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:32:00 - [30] what more do you guys want? GOLEM = Problem Fixed. Thats what i do all my missions in, and hey, it can kill and salvage at the SAME time. We fight for the ONE - We die for the ONE Don't troll in your signature please. -Hango
Pak Narhoo Pacific Starfleet Command	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:34:00 - [31] One word to the OP: ========= S A N D B O X ========= Originally by: Mr Cleann When I mine. I like to mine in peace. Not in pieces.
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:36:00 - [32] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Wrecks do not belong to the mission runner, only the loot contained inside. Simple as that. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Neddy Fox Paxton Industries	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:36:00 - [33] The only thing I hate is the hordes of "easy money" salvagers in places like Amarr and Jita, when other groups fight their battles. They even make sure they're in docking range, and steal/dock if possible. IMO they're just like vultures, living off others efford. People salvaging in missions risk aggro, if the mission runner plays it smart he can get the salvager killed/frustrated by warping out a few times. Just adapt.
Chzandri	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:36:00 - [34] Just like with ore thieves the solution is once again to play together with one or two other people in game so that they can tractor and scoop/salvage the goods before a thief gets to them. Meanwhile there are thousands of rookies running around, trying to run their missions solo and getting getting killed, getting frustrated with losing ships and iskies, trying to find corps that will have them but not finding any. You can take these guys and put them to work, ask them to haul or salvage for you. Yes you will lose a small portion as payment but it is better than losing everything to ore thieves and a great way to give back to the community at the same time.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:39:00 - [35] High sec missionrunner complaining about other professions having too low risk, the irony. If anything, high sec missions are the scewed profession in Eve. Highly uncompetitive, non exclusive and very rewarding relative to the risk invlolved. CCP should take a look at high sec missions instead. It needs a complete overhaul imo.
ramzahn	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:47:00 - [36] Originally by: Cpt Fina High sec missionrunner complaining about other professions having too low risk, the irony. If anything, high sec missions are the scewed profession in Eve. Highly uncompetitive, non exclusive and very rewarding relative to the risk invlolved. CCP should take a look at high sec missions instead. It needs a complete overhaul imo. Would you believe that a lot of people are playing this game to just do missions and be left alone?
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:50:00 - [37] Originally by: ramzahn Would you believe that a lot of people are playing this game to just do missions and be left alone? That is a bit like trying to play football ( thats the one where you kick a round ball about using only your feet ) on a motorway and complaining when you get run over.
raven415 Special Projects Corp	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:53:00 - [38] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Been stolen from once, why? I don't mish in Motsu. Case closed. Next caller. ditto
ramzahn	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Luh Windan Originally by: ramzahn Would you believe that a lot of people are playing this game to just do missions and be left alone? That is a bit like trying to play football ( thats the one where you kick a round ball about using only your feet ) on a motorway and complaining when you get run over. I do not complain, I ask.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:58:00 - [40] This thread is too good, too good. My favorite parts: Originally by: Amastat In a very popular and large issue/debate, is the salvage mechanics that make this profession so easy and so popular... On one side, is the mission-runners, who feel that it's unbalanced, unfair, and too risk-free that Salvage Thiefs... Mission runners are a top-level provider... This effectively will destroy a large amount of the mission running industry, and could cause large quantities of mission runners to retire Ironic, angered carebears sure do make some ridiculous posts. But at least they are entertaining to laugh at. Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:02:00 - [41] Originally by: ramzahn Would you believe that a lot of people are playing this game to just do missions and be left alone? You wouldn't have to convince me as I allready believe that there are many like that in Eve. However I and many others don't believe that these players are the ones who the developers should listen most to. And judging by past statements made by CCP on what they aim to take Eve neither do they. High sec mission running and exploration to some extent are, as I see it, the professions that differ the most from the "spirit of Eve". Sure, many players probably would want CCP to implement safer high-sec. Just as alot of people would want Rolex, Mercedes and BMW to make cheap alternatives to their products. The thing is that when a companies with distinct images caves into wishes like these they loose or weaken their Uniquie Selling Points, allowing them to make higher profits on a short term but opening up the possibilities to get whiped from the market as they loose their identity. Eve has certain characteristics that differs it from the other products on the market and I think that CCP should proceed very carefully when making changes so that they don't weaken Eve's strong aspects.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:06:00 - [42] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 06/06/2008 10:05:54 I don't normally flame but, You have no idea what you are on about. EvE and what it is about has obviously passed you by. You want to sit in your mission hub and farm isk. You know what i'd rather CCP introduced more ways to get you grinders flagged. THIS IS AN M - M - O that focuses on player interactivity on all levels. I really do not give a flying ** that you are disgusted with salvage mechanics, mission running in high sec is safe enough and provided great amounts of isk prior to and after salvaging was introduced. Do you have any idea how hard it is to actually probe a mission runner? If you are in a system with 100 + missioners than chances are high, in a hub with 20 or less its alot lower. Want your salvage? move system you greedy greedy isk farmer. Originally by:** Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
ramzahn	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:08:00 - [43] I rest assured in the knowledge that soon many a mighty deep space pirate will experience the joys of having someone else in on their mission for themselves. :)
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:13:00 - [44] Originally by: ramzahn I rest assured in the knowledge that soon many a mighty deep space pirate will experience the joys of having someone else in on their mission for themselves. :) Been there, done that. Bothered by it? NO. Why? I like EvE. Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
Kransthow Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:13:00 - [45] Originally by: ramzahn I rest assured in the knowledge that soon many a mighty deep space pirate will experience the joys of having someone else in on their mission for themselves. :) what My alt is "Is Forporn"
ramzahn	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:18:00 - [46] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: ramzahn Would you believe that a lot of people are playing this game to just do missions and be left alone? You wouldn't have to convince me as I allready believe that there are many like that in Eve. However I and many others don't believe that these players are the ones who the developers should listen most to. And judging by past statements made by CCP on what they aim to take Eve neither do they. High sec mission running and exploration to some extent are, as I see it, the professions that differ the most from the "spirit of Eve". Sure, many players probably would want CCP to implement safer high-sec. Just as alot of people would want Rolex, Mercedes and BMW to make cheap alternatives to their products. The thing is that when a companies with distinct images caves into wishes like these they loose or weaken their Uniquie Selling Points, allowing them to make higher profits on a short term but opening up the possibilities to get whiped from the market as they loose their identity. Eve has certain characteristics that differs it from the other products on the market and I think that CCP should proceed very carefully when making changes so that they don't weaken Eve's strong aspects. Oh, that's no problem at all, at all. I think people can adapt very quickly, by abandoning one game and taking up another. All that is need is one clear word from the makers of said game.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:19:00 - [47] Originally by: Amastat An example is, the only effective counter measure to prevent a salvage thief from stealing, is blowing up your own wrecks - so in the very least, no party gains from this at all. See, this is where your argument falls flat on its face. You're just plain wrong. The really effective counter measure is to not leave any wrecks behind for him to salvage by salvaging as you go. Yes, this means (gasp!!) fitting one (or two) less launchers or turrets. No, it doesn't make missioning impossible. Yes, it takes a tiny bit longer to complete, but since you won't lose your salvage, you should make more money this way.* * This, of course, assumes that you do lose your salvage if you don't take care of it immediately, which is doubtful. I have yet to see a single unwanted visitor in my missions, even though I'm in a hub… Maybe it's because I'm in a ship that doesn't look like it would be used for L4 missioning, and which the probers therefore ignore
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:21:00 - [48] Originally by: MinmatarCitizen 90242 Lol mission runners complaining about other people making easy ISK. Funny!!!! PS. Amastat if you had kept this to yourself then others would not jump on the band wagon as quick. Slade
Armoured C Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:25:00 - [49] Edited by: Armoured C on 06/06/2008 10:26:02 this is what you got to do is just fit salvgers i useually pull aggro and wait for them to get close and then salvage the wrecks instantly =) as seen below Mc lootenstein
Val Vympel Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:27:00 - [50] Edited by: Val Vympel on 06/06/2008 10:34:10 Find a "decent"agent in a out of the way system. Don't be such a LP w h o r e. Problem solved. I have run about one hundred missions a month for about a year ...never been ripped off once.
Shakuul Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:28:00 - [51] God forbid you have to mission somewhere that isn't Motsu... Seriously, go find a caldari L4Q10+ agent...it doesn't have to be Q20....in a nice quiet system and mission run to your hearts content.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:06:00 - [52] If missions were safe they'd be boring. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Misanth Electro Fuels	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:12:00 - [53] I run missions with two characters. One that 'salvage on the go', while my main is doing the cleaning. If someone enters and start loot things I don't mind sacrificing my nub corp alt in a suicide bombing. Either they steal my salvage and I lose it, or I suicide on them and neither of us get it. Easy choice.
AC Resonance Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:16:00 - [54] All your salvage belongs to us. Yup we rock
Jane Raiden	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:18:00 - [55] WTF is wrong with carebears, all they do is whine and cry that they are constantly getting screwed. You talk of salvage thiefs making money with 0 risk, what REAL risk do you take as a mission *****? You guys make insane amounts of ISK for little or no risk. What part of eve is a cold, dark, dangerous place do you not get? Why must you always run to the forums abd whine? I LOVE eve as it is, and if you carebear scum got everything they way you want it, eve would suck. Why are you unable change/adapt to emerging trends and profensions, then what's the point of playing a sandbox game? If you want safe, grief free, mind numingly boring gameplay, then fo play WoW, and leave eve to those that understand and like the game the way it is. Idiot
Is forporn THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Adonis 4174 missions are boring. fyp Join THE INTERNET. today
Misanth Electro Fuels	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Jane Raiden WTF is wrong with carebears, all they do is whine and cry that they are constantly getting screwed. You talk of salvage thiefs making money with 0 risk, what REAL risk do you take as a mission *****? You guys make insane amounts of ISK for little or no risk. What part of eve is a cold, dark, dangerous place do you not get? Why must you always run to the forums abd whine? I LOVE eve as it is, and if you carebear scum got everything they way you want it, eve would suck. Why are you unable change/adapt to emerging trends and profensions, then what's the point of playing a sandbox game? If you want safe, grief free, mind numingly boring gameplay, then fo play WoW, and leave eve to those that understand and like the game the way it is. Idiot You already answer that question yourself. They don't understand it, obviously, then they wouldn't play EVE.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:26:00 - [58] Originally by: ramzahn Would you believe that a lot of people are playing this game to just do missions and be left alone? Who cares. Soloing in perfect safety while influencing the world around you is not EVE, you are in the wrong game. Besides that if you get so worked up about salvage thiefs get out of motsu and you wont ever get any.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:34:00 - [59] Originally by: Cpt Fina High sec missionrunner complaining about other professions having too low risk, the irony. If anything, high sec missions are the scewed profession in Eve. Highly uncompetitive, non exclusive and very rewarding relative to the risk invlolved. CCP should take a look at high sec missions instead. It needs a complete overhaul imo. I agree. But not for a week or so - I need to make a quick couple of bill before I head back into 0.0 again. Then they should fix it for sure. PS No-one ever steals my salvage. What's with that? What, my wrecks aren't good enough for you? FINE! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Freethinker Zun	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:37:00 - [60] Wow. Having read the replies to the OP, it amazes me that so very few of you have anything constructive to say. This guy has what he believes to be a problem, and is at best looking for constructive help, and at worst venting. So, of course, the mature, useful, and rational thing to do is fall over each other trying to come up with the snappiest, quickest, least useful comeback you can think of, and hit that 'Post Reply' button. Just an observation, but these forums have grown to become really unbelievable.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Freethinker Zun Wow. Having read the replies to the OP, it amazes me that so very few of you have anything constructive to say. This guy has what he believes to be a problem, and is at best looking for constructive help, and at worst venting. So, of course, the mature, useful, and rational thing to do is fall over each other trying to come up with the snappiest, quickest, least useful comeback you can think of, and hit that 'Post Reply' button. Just an observation, but these forums have grown to become really unbelievable. People are getting fed up with the generic whines from mission runners every day.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:40:00 - [62] this thread delivers ... anybody seen the OP lately ? --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:40:00 - [63] Originally by: Freethinker Zun This guy has what he believes to be a problem, and is at best looking for constructive help, and at worst venting. He's been venting about it before and the answer wast he same back then – salvage it yourself before they get the chance. He has been given constructive help and has chosen to ignore it. Thus, we enter stage 2: bash, bash, bash, laugh, bash (in roughly that order).
Gealbhan Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:41:00 - [64] Salvage Thieves are like those little fish that follow sharks around feeding on the scraps. Yeah they're not anything interesting but the keep things tidy. Like our Salvage guys n' gals, they could help reduce lag* a bit by cleaning up a mess. *Salvage Thieves and lag reduction have not been scientifically linked as of this printing. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:41:00 - [65] Originally by: Freethinker Zun Wow. Having read the replies to the OP, it amazes me that so very few of you have anything constructive to say. This guy has what he believes to be a problem, and is at best looking for constructive help, and at worst venting. So, of course, the mature, useful, and rational thing to do is fall over each other trying to come up with the snappiest, quickest, least useful comeback you can think of, and hit that 'Post Reply' button. Just an observation, but these forums have grown to become really unbelievable. I see pirates in lowsec as a problem but do not whine to get rid of them ... Why does the OP whine about a legitimate game mechanic that is supported by CCP in the current incarnation as it is ? We could link Dev/GM posts about this but I guess the OP would not care about them and only go about his own view ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:42:00 - [66] Originally by: Freethinker Zun Wow. Having read the replies to the OP, it amazes me that so very few of you have anything constructive to say. This guy has what he believes to be a problem, and is at best looking for constructive help, and at worst venting. So, of course, the mature, useful, and rational thing to do is fall over each other trying to come up with the snappiest, quickest, least useful comeback you can think of, and hit that 'Post Reply' button. Just an observation, but these forums have grown to become really unbelievable. lol? Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
Billy Merc Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:51:00 - [67] Salvaging alt ftw... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777866 Voice your opinion on the GTC sales changes in the above CSM thread
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:53:00 - [68] Originally by: ramzahn Edited by: ramzahn on 06/06/2008 10:29:22 Originally by: Cpt Fina Oh, that's no problem at all, at all. I think people can adapt very quickly, by abandoning one game and taking up another. All that is needed is one clear word from the makers of said game. You're saying that CCP shouldn't care for Eve because there'll always be other MMOs on the market for the community to play? Or are you saying that there is no need to differentiate ones product on a very competative market with actors many times bigger than your own company?
Freethinker Zun	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:56:00 - [69] All the OP is suggesting is that maybe things need a change from the way they are currently. Things change in societies like Empires' when people find ways to take advantage in unforseen avenues. The game is dynamic, so the rules and results must be dynamic as well. This is all about keeping an open mind. What should probably be happening, here, on the forums, is less smacktalk/derision and more constructive thought. Bang those brain cells together and figure out a compromise. Both parties want ease of ISK and extremely limited stress in their particular jobs; something's going to have to give, on one or both sides, before folks calm down. It's as simple as that.
CetusOfAsuran GHOSTS OF THE FIRST AND ONLY	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:02:00 - [70] The only change that needs to be made is access to the mission area. The salvaging i dont care about if they get it first fair enough, but when they are doing it to grief it gets annoying i.e. aggroing the whole room, stealing the mission item, stealing an item to try and bait the kill on them only to return with fleet. Salvage really doesnt make that much to be concerned about.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:06:00 - [71] Originally by: Freethinker Zun All the OP is suggesting is that maybe things need a change from the way they are currently. Things change in societies like Empires' when people find ways to take advantage in unforseen avenues. The game is dynamic, so the rules and results must be dynamic as well. This is all about keeping an open mind. What should probably be happening, here, on the forums, is less smacktalk/derision and more constructive thought. Bang those brain cells together and figure out a compromise. Both parties want ease of ISK and extremely limited stress in their particular jobs; something's going to have to give, on one or both sides, before folks calm down. It's as simple as that. There are probably around 200 threads with this "problem" that is easily fixed by moving out of motsu. Some of those threads even have Dev or GM responses saying its working as intended. So no open mind needed for regurgitated whines.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:17:00 - [72] Freethinker Zun, to settle with a compromise requires that there is some kind of problem that has to be solved. But there is none and no compromise is needed.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Freethinker Zun All the OP is suggesting is that maybe things need a change from the way they are currently. Things change in societies like Empires' when people find ways to take advantage in unforseen avenues. The game is dynamic, so the rules and results must be dynamic as well. This is all about keeping an open mind. What should probably be happening, here, on the forums, is less smacktalk/derision and more constructive thought. Bang those brain cells together and figure out a compromise. Both parties want ease of ISK and extremely limited stress in their particular jobs; something's going to have to give, on one or both sides, before folks calm down. It's as simple as that. The compromise he has in mind is the elimination of an entire profession so he can make a few more zero-risk ISK in EvE-Single Player mode. No. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aggroman	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:41:00 - [74] im still very new but doing lvl 4s now, just wanted to say.. first time someone warped in and stole my salvage and mission item, my cigerette fell out my mouth and burnt me But screw it.. this game is too awesome and life is too short to write a book about a few of my wrecks
Reven Cordelle	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:45:00 - [75] Bawww. You know, in my history of playing EVE, i have ran missions. Im up to level 4s now, so i'm pretty much on the end game of high sec missioning. In those 6 months or however long it is, i have NEVER SEEN somebody warp into my mission and salvage it for me. NEVER. Why? Because I avoid Motsu, Umokka, Jita etc. Hell, I do level 4s in Kakakela and I still don't see any freakin' salvagers.
Bart Roberts Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:45:00 - [76] For yet more official evidence that CCP has no plans to change this intended behaviour, see GM Ytterbium's "Wreck ownership changes" posts and his related sticky: http://www.eve-search.com/search/author/GM%20Ytterbium
Cassandra Valieries	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:54:00 - [77] I'm mission running out of Oursalleart (or however that system is spelled), the Gallente mission hub for the last 6 weeks. Haven't had a single case of salvage stealing. I have however seen, almost regularly, people asking if anyone wants their salvage. Soooo... The wave of salvage stealing that the OP is whining about must be a very localised phenomena... And for the record, if any ninjasalvagers see me (or my alt Malahasen Takhos) mission running, help yourselves You are most welcome to my salvage. Small donations (1-5% of salvage value) would be appreciated but not required at all
Kentros Chiraten	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:55:00 - [78] I fail to see any problem here. If you have issue with it, go NPC somewhere where there aren't 200 other people running missions already. Shock; horror - it's more likely you'll encounter other people in crowded systems!
Tarron Sarek Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:07:00 - [79] Ah well, I would rather call it alt char epidemic. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well -Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam- ('nerf' means 'incompetence', esp. when you use it)
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:10:00 - [80] Never really had the problem myself, I salvage as I go (marauders for the win). I guess if was steamrolling missions and using alts to salvage the loot I'd be concerned, but the salvage has value for me and thus I make it a point to pick up as I go. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Kirana Si House of Lubrication	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:17:00 - [81] The op should be happy about the fact that someone safed him from the dissapointment to salvage gazillion hours and then get suicide ganked when he is on his way to Jita in his 1mil T1 hauler with 3Bil salvage loot inside
Tellnan Matkiel Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:21:00 - [82] To be fair to mission runners (obviously not the OP), most of them probably do take precautions to avoid the problem. Or, if they do become a target, take some action. One guy I knew went and advertised a contract in C&P to pod someone who salvaged his mission; a different guy, in a room still full of baddies, just lead said baddies onto the would-be thief, warped out, leaving the salvager to get his ship destroyed. Alternatively you could salvage as you go - it's not that hard. Finally, if none of this appeals to you, spend a few minutes blowing up your own wrecks. That way you deny the salvager too. Plenty of in-game options.
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:47:00 - [83] Originally by: Freethinker Zun All the OP is suggesting is that maybe things need a change from the way they are currently. Things change in societies like Empires' when people find ways to take advantage in unforseen avenues. The game is dynamic, so the rules and results must be dynamic as well. This is all about keeping an open mind. What should probably be happening, here, on the forums, is less smacktalk/derision and more constructive thought. Bang those brain cells together and figure out a compromise. Both parties want ease of ISK and extremely limited stress in their particular jobs; something's going to have to give, on one or both sides, before folks calm down. It's as simple as that. No, its as simple as doing a search before posting the same suggestion repeadtedly. This topic has been covered ad nauseum, and the Devs have posted an official reply, and plenty of players have offered numerous suggestions as to how to avoid having your salvage stolen. The vast majority of EVEs players so not want a change to be made to salvage rules, and so the OP is outnumbered.
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:56:00 - [84] Hmmm Wasnt it changed recently that a ninja-salvager would be criminal if he salvaged a wreck that didnt belong to him? I have np with people being able to scan me out and loot/salvage my wrecks during a mission - this is eve ! - BUT it totally ****ed me off that they could salvage WITHOUT FLAGGING CRIMINAL to me ! Thats lame.... CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:06:00 - [85] Originally by: Belmarduk Hmmm Wasnt it changed recently that a ninja-salvager would be criminal if he salvaged a wreck that didnt belong to him? Nope. It has never even been discussed (or well, it has been discussed but thoroughly shot down by the devs). Quote: I have np with people being able to scan me out and loot/salvage my wrecks during a mission - this is eve ! - BUT it totally ****ed me off that they could salvage WITHOUT FLAGGING CRIMINAL to me ! Thats lame.... Yes, and people should be flagged as criminals when they mine from the same asteroid as me as well…
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:19:00 - [86] Hm then I obviously misread a patchnote beginning of the year Anyway my opinion stands: If someone scans me out and starts salvaging the wrecks I KILLED where is the mother***** difference between a cargocan and a wreck ?????? So be it then ninja salvager can STILL salvage WITHOUT consequences... Thats LAME and STUPID - Where is the risk vs reward situation???? ***** carebears posing as ninja salvagers... CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Slade Hoo	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:19:00 - [87] I have never had any problems with salvage thiefs...run missions in a non-mission-hub and you are fine, otherwise you take the risk (same as miners in overcrowded mining systems)
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:38:00 - [88] Edited by: Tippia on 06/06/2008 14:43:56 Originally by: Belmarduk I just find it extremly weird of CCP that People can salvage from other peoples wrecks without consequences... It's not particularly strange since it's not their wrecks. Quote: Where is the risk vs reward situation???? It's the same as for the mission runner.
Billy Sastard Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:43:00 - [89] Edited by: Billy Sastard on 06/06/2008 14:43:56 GAH!!! Why can't people understand that there is no such thing as salvage 'theft'!? CCP added salvage with the intention of it becoming a career, they are not going to change this because some people feel entitled to the wrecks. When salvaging was introduced, I am certain that CCP expected, and maybe even encouraged, people to start probing out mission runners in order to grab their salvage! As to why people can get into your missions at all, this is another thing that CCP wants to happen as it promotes PvP, and considering the fact that this is a PvP game, that makes sense. IIRC CCP even nerfed probing mission runners to make it even harder after the introduction of salvaging, because with the same patch came new probes and a new probing system that made probing missions 'too' easy. CCP doesn't want it to be too easy to probe mission runners, but at the same time they don't want people completely safe in their mission deadspace. If you don't like the way CCP runs their game, you can always quit and go play runescape or something. -=^=- My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep.
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:47:00 - [90] Originally by: Sokratesz I'm sorry, you mean highsec isn't made of absolute safety anymore? Gee wiz, time for a whine! You mean highsec hasn't anythink to do with safety as most 0.0 is saver then some 1.0 systems? In conclusion this would mean the hole secure-rating-system is absolut wrong and/or bugged and/or abused? Well, you are right :)
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:50:00 - [91] OP: Did you ever consider that the reason for the current game mechanics is to protect the mission runner and not the "thief"? I am all in favor for criminally flagging people who salvages other peoples wrecks just to keep it more in line with mining mechanics. Also because I look forward to all the threads from Raven pilots that have been baited into aggression and have had their precious mission ship ganked. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Vagablonde Ouruboros Trading	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:51:00 - [92] if they warp in on your doing a mission just warp out, come back and they will have been turned to dust by mass agro ________________ the way back home is always long, but if you're close to me i'm holding on.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:51:00 - [93] i have never seen a salvage thief. ever. i mission run for 90% of income. CCP specifically made a tool to fight against them: marauders it's fine, stop whining.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:52:00 - [94] Originally by: Freethinker Zun Wow. Having read the replies to the OP, it amazes me that so very few of you have anything constructive to say. This guy has what he believes to be a problem, and is at best looking for constructive help, and at worst venting. So, of course, the mature, useful, and rational thing to do is fall over each other trying to come up with the snappiest, quickest, least useful comeback you can think of, and hit that 'Post Reply' button. Just an observation, but these forums have grown to become really unbelievable. The forums can be extremely trollish, that's nothing new. But I think the OP has a bit of a, uh, haha, history here. It's karma. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:52:00 - [95] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Originally by: Sokratesz I'm sorry, you mean highsec isn't made of absolute safety anymore? Gee wiz, time for a whine! You mean highsec hasn't anythink to do with safety as most 0.0 is saver then some 1.0 systems? In conclusion this would mean the hole secure-rating-system is absolut wrong and/or bugged and/or abused? Well, you are right :) 0.0 is only safe if you use manpower and ships to patrol the borders and keep others out in addition to learning how to protect yourself through such things as scouts, intel, safespots, cloaks etc. The tools are there if you want to stay safe, but i guess whining and asking for handholding mechanics is easier.
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:58:00 - [96] Ok... Am I not expressing myself proberly?... I am NOT against missionrunners being scanned out I am NOT against ninja-salvagers being able to salvage the wreck of a ship I JUST KILLED Szenario: If a pirate ship in the middle ages just conquered/killed/whatever a ship and a different pirate ship came along and started salvaging that ship - Pirat Ship A would say ok Go ahead slavage belongs to everyone we will not attack ??????????? Where is the ******* logic behind that????? If someone starts salvaging the wreck of a ship I KILLEDand I CANT RETALIATE it is lame and has NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP FFS Period CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:00:00 - [97] Edited by: Tippia on 06/06/2008 15:02:05 Originally by: Belmarduk Szenario: If a pirate ship in the middle ages just conquered/killed/whatever a ship and a different pirate ship came along and started salvaging that ship - Pirat Ship A would say ok Go ahead slavage belongs to everyone we will not attack ??????????? Where is the ***** logic behind that????? The logic is that the navy would say: "Salvage belongs to anyone - we don't care who gets it. If you start killing eachother, however, it is our business, and we'll trebuchet your ass from here to Palestine." True story. Quote:** If someone starts salvaging the wreck of a ship I KILLEDand I CANT RETALIATE it is lame and has NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP FFS Yes it has. You race against another player to be first to salvage the ship – ergo, PvP.
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Amastat On one side, is the thief salvagers, who feel that it's unbalanced, unfair, and too risk-free ... ... to run missions in high sec. Fixed! .
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:03:00 - [99] *******s hehe My opinion stands - Atm a salvager can hide behind concord and game mechanics. CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:09:00 - [100] Originally by: Belmarduk *******s hehe My opinion stands - Atm a salvager can hide behind concord and game mechanics. So can npc-corp mission runners, and in hi sec short of suicide ganking there's nothing that can kill them. Just like with thief-salvagers. Now how about some cheese? .
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:11:00 - [101] Originally by: Belmarduk Ok... Am I not expressing myself proberly?... I am NOT against missionrunners being scanned out I am NOT against ninja-salvagers being able to salvage the wreck of a ship I JUST KILLED Szenario: If a pirate ship in the middle ages just conquered/killed/whatever a ship and a different pirate ship came along and started salvaging that ship - Pirat Ship A would say ok Go ahead slavage belongs to everyone we will not attack ??????????? Where is the ******* logic behind that????? If someone starts salvaging the wreck of a ship I KILLEDand I CANT RETALIATE it is lame and has NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP FFS Period Fit 1 tractor and 1 salvage and salvage as you kill. You hi sec mission runners have it too easy already. Stop whining! .
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:12:00 - [102] Originally by: Xparky Originally by: Belmarduk *******s hehe My opinion stands - Atm a salvager can hide behind concord and game mechanics. So can npc-corp mission runners, and in hi sec short of suicide ganking there's nothing that can kill them. Just like with thief-salvagers. Now how about some cheese? You are absolutley right and I agree with you but thats something completly different. Hmm some chedar please - I cant get that here :( CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Rhatar Khurin The PeacekeeperZ Phobos Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:13:00 - [103] I've never even seen an salvage thief, but i wish one would follow me about i can't be bothered to do it myself often at least i would know that it's not going to waste. _ EVE RELATED CONTENT
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:15:00 - [104] Originally by: Xparky Fit 1 tractor and 1 salvage and salvage as you kill. You hi sec mission runners have it too easy already. Stop whining! Hehe thats not the point - Its a thing of principle I count myself neither as carebear nor as hardcore-pvpler - I am in between probalby ;) Yes I sometimes also do missions in highsec but thats obsolete. Point is people can hide behind concord while stealing from other players. No whine just fact. Hugs and Kisses CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:16:00 - [105] Originally by: Belmarduk Originally by: Xparky Originally by: Belmarduk *******s hehe My opinion stands - Atm a salvager can hide behind concord and game mechanics. So can npc-corp mission runners, and in hi sec short of suicide ganking there's nothing that can kill them. Just like with thief-salvagers. Now how about some cheese? You are absolutley right and I agree with you but thats something completly different. Hmm some chedar please - I cant get that here :( How is it different ? .
Ovar Doce Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:18:00 - [106] If you catch me in your mission space I will leave for a fee of 10 million isk. This is by no means a Corpate sanctioned option, but this option stands for me.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:19:00 - [107] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 06/06/2008 15:19:23 Originally by: Belmarduk Point is people can hide behind concord while stealing from other players. No whine just fact. How can one steal something that doesn't belong to anyone?
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:20:00 - [108] Edited by: Xparky on 06/06/2008 15:21:39 Originally by: Belmarduk Point is people can hide behind concord while stealing from other players. No whine just fact. Hugs and Kisses According to the eve laws (made by game creators, CCP), it is not stealing. If you shoot and kill a ship you are entitled only to the loot inside it. The wreck is free-for-all. Salvaging wouldn't be much of a "profession" in itself if you had to "own" the wrecks. It would've been just an income buff to mission runners and ratters, which was not the point. Just facts It is not stealing unless they take the loot. Stop thinking you are entitled to something you are not. Fit a tractor and salvager and salvage as you go or move out of that damn hub. .
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:22:00 - [109] I killed the npc ;) Only want to be able to retaliate against the salvager - This is Eve isnt it - a pvp-orientated mmorpg ?? CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:24:00 - [110] Originally by: Xparky It is not stealing unless they take the loot. Stop thinking you are entitled to something you are not. [/quote Where is the bloody difference? That way the salvager is entitled BECAUSE I cant retaliate - Brilliant logic... CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:24:00 - [111] Originally by: Belmarduk I killed the npc ;) Only want to be able to retaliate against the salvager - This is Eve isnt it - a pvp-orientated mmorpg ?? So you want salvaging to be just another buff to ratters/ mission runners. Well sorry to break the bad news to you, but the salvaging proffession wasn't designed for that purpose. Thank you, have a nice day. .
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:26:00 - [112] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 06/06/2008 15:26:50 Originally by: Belmarduk Only want to be able to retaliate against the salvager - This is Eve isnt it - a pvp-orientated mmorpg ?? I'll support the ability for missionrunners to retaliate on salvagers once missionagents becomes a rivalrous and excludable resource with vastly increased risks OR vastly reduced rewards. Like most other professions in Eve.
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:30:00 - [113] Ok, let's say you can shoot the ninja salvager. 1. You will need a warp scrambler on your missioning ship to prevent them from leaving. 2. Ninja salvagers will fit WCS. 3. After you shoot at them they can shoot back, so they will change ships and return to wtfpwn you, disrupting your missioning even more than ninja salvaging. .
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:33:00 - [114] Originally by: Belmarduk ...a salvager can hide behind concord and game mechanics. That's the price you pay for being in hisec. Everyone there is "hiding" behind game mechanics. Or did you think Concord was only meant to protect -you- and the activities that -you- approve of? If you'd like to be free of Concord interference, if you'd like the freedom to declare anything you like as your property and shoot anybody who disagrees to smithereens, you know where to go. Good luck. :) * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:43:00 - [115] Edited by: Tippia on 06/06/2008 15:43:54 Originally by: Belmarduk Fact is that people can salvage without risk and thats (AND ONLY THAT IS WHAT IS BOTHERING ME) not right imho - Not in a sandbox game like Eve is... They face the exact same risks as a mission runner, and without any of the guaranteed rewards the mission runner has. You're basically saying that missions, as a whole, should be removed from the game. edit: Damn you, Xparky!
Forum Fanatic	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:45:00 - [116] Eve is only what people make it. Sadly it has become a magnet for the scummiest community of any MMO I have ever played.
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:47:00 - [117] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 06/06/2008 15:43:54 Originally by: Belmarduk Fact is that people can salvage without risk and thats (AND ONLY THAT IS WHAT IS BOTHERING ME) not right imho - Not in a sandbox game like Eve is... They face the exact same risks as a mission runner, and without any of the guaranteed rewards the mission runner has. You're basically saying that missions, as a whole, should be removed from the game. edit: Damn you, Xparky! omg you 2 should be laywers ;) I give up I will believe you that apples are blue if you tell me.. ;) CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Daelin Felagund Radikus Industries	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:57:00 - [118] Originally by: Belmarduk Edited by: Belmarduk on 06/06/2008 15:39:36 Some people here are obviously either stupid or thick or trying to be annoying on purpose - whatever I give up - this is a dead end Fact is that people can salvage without risk and thats (AND ONLY THAT IS WHAT IS BOTHERING ME) not right imho - Not in a sandbox game like Eve is... Have a good day And at first, it bothered me, too. I solved it by simply leaving the area it was happening (Motsu - and I was done building Caldari rep at the time, anyway). It is a solution, to find happier grounds away from these people ... because frankly, those others who've said it are right - CCP isn't going to change the rules for salvage. Even to allow a red flagging ... which might be cool, some cases, but hey. Frankly, I think it's an opportunity to be bold and engage in a little non-consensual yarring. After all, most of these salvagers are looking to snatch and run and keep their precious hides intact. If you meet their minimal-cost ninja-salvage frigate with an equally minimal-cost, plat-insured suicide gank frigate or destroyer run by an alt (or a friend willing to do it), you too can: a) scratch that ninja hatred itch via direct application of violence b) get in on the thrill that is non-consensual pvp c) potentially have the satisfaction of watching the ninja's ship go pop, even while your frigate is Concordonked d) potentially salvage the wreck of the ninja salvager, in an oh so sweet turnabout e) not pay anything, thanks to insurance To the guy I saw complaining regarding mining issues ... there's a FAR worse problem than thieves that the mining set need to deal with - macro-miners farming isk for RMT. This is a real problem especially in hi-sec ice fields, that CCP claims is important to them and illegal for their game, but which they refuse to deal with in any meaningful way. But that's another topic altogether, for another time and thread. Mongo, the Merciless Carebear and Frito Muncher Extraordinaire
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:00:00 - [119] Originally by: Belmarduk I will believe you that apples are blue if you tell me.. ;) They are. .
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:03:00 - [120] I have had people ask me if they can come in behind and salvage up the dead carcasses I leave behind. Of course as long as they don't come in while I am there, I am just paranoid like that. I don't salvage on missions (missions being my main income source)because it takes too long and I am basically lazy. So if some enterprising cov-ops pilot wants to sneak in after I lay waste to a room he is welcome to the junk.
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:03:00 - [121] o/ Daelin :) My main is there and ready for action - send me a note and we can go kill some MM :) back to topic: Yes of course one can evade the salvagers or blow ones own wrecks up before.But this is not the point. Highsec should ONLY protect direct pvp not anything else - it gets too "carebeary" otherwise CCP rethink your stance about salvaging please CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:04:00 - [122] Originally by: Fifth Horseman But the reason they can thieve the wrecks is because the carebears CRIED until CCP changed it so that you could salvage an unlooted wreck. So now CCP gave them what they wished for, they are crying? Just wow..... Browsed this thread until I found yet another moron who can't help but blabber and whine about whines. Get a life kid. The op wrote in a thought out, detailed form and you reply back like a 3rd grader. I think you're the real problem with Eve. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
z0de The Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:08:00 - [123] Edited by: z0de on 06/06/2008 16:10:37 Get someone to fly with you salvaging as you kill, pop the wrecks they approach and make life hard for them and it will stop. The mechanics stand as they are because ccp want as much salvaging done as possible. the role play reason: its a wreck that belonging to the poor sod you just blew up, not you.
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:09:00 - [124] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Fifth Horseman But the reason they can thieve the wrecks is because the carebears CRIED until CCP changed it so that you could salvage an unlooted wreck. So now CCP gave them what they wished for, they are crying? Just wow..... Browsed this thread until I found yet another moron who can't help but blabber and whine about whines. Get a life kid. The op wrote in a thought out, detailed form and you reply back like a 3rd grader. I think you're the real problem with Eve. And you post flaming insults while being completely off topic. I think you're the real problem with Eve (forums). .
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:09:00 - [125] Edited by: Spineker on 06/06/2008 16:09:53 Zode that is what I do if they come in before I leave a room I start popping the wrecks only takes a few rounds and pop. But if I leave I think it is no longer mine anyway and since I have no intentions of salvaging myself and only loot what I know drops good money items I don't care.
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:15:00 - [126] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Jack Jombardo Originally by: Sokratesz ... ... 0.0 is only safe if you use manpower and ships to patrol the borders and keep others out in addition to learning how to protect yourself through such things as scouts, intel, safespots, cloaks etc. The tools are there if you want to stay safe, but i guess whining and asking for handholding mechanics is easier. So you'd rather set all systems to 0.0 then seeing the CONCORD as somethink like a ubar-ally wich protects the empire? Oh and then there are the sov-holders like Amarr, Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente. Isn't it there job to protect there inhabitants? Would any player-Ally ever allow theefts, pirates or other criminals act like this in there teretorrys? Hardly to belive they would ;).
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:18:00 - [127] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Originally by: Sokratesz I'm sorry, you mean highsec isn't made of absolute safety anymore? Gee wiz, time for a whine! You mean highsec hasn't anythink to do with safety as most 0.0 is saver then some 1.0 systems? In conclusion this would mean the hole secure-rating-system is absolut wrong and/or bugged and/or abused? Well, you are right :) That fabled "safer than 1.0" situation doesn't just happen of it's own accord, you know. Real players actually have to do stuff to make it happen. Try putting some effort, expense and risk into making your environment safer and you might be surprised at the results. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:19:00 - [128] Originally by: Jane Raiden What part of eve is a cold, dark, dangerous place do you not get? Snippage of all the elitist (and in this case insulting) PvPer's are better/more important crap. The sentence above is the main part of the post. The counter, of course, is if EVE is a cold, dark, dangerous place, why is not not cold, dark and dangerous for the Salvage Ninjas? No one is asking for them to made go away by fiat. Just let the missioners shoot at the thieves without being Concorded. Problem solved, EVE is cold, dark and dangerous for everyone. It's hardly rocket science.
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:23:00 - [129] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Jane Raiden What part of eve is a cold, dark, dangerous place do you not get? Snippage of all the elitist (and in this case insulting) PvPer's are better/more important crap. The sentence above is the main part of the post. The counter, of course, is if EVE is a cold, dark, dangerous place, why is not not cold, dark and dangerous for the Salvage Ninjas? No one is asking for them to made go away by fiat. Just let the missioners shoot at the thieves without being Concorded. Problem solved, EVE is cold, dark and dangerous for everyone. It's hardly rocket science. ding ding YAAY We have a winner - Someone gets it !!!! Greetings Belmarduk CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Daelin Felagund Radikus Industries	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:25:00 - [130] Originally by: Belmarduk o/ Daelin :) My main is there and ready for action - send me a note and we can go kill some MM :) o7 Belmarduk 8-) I have several places I work already, but I'm always willing to encourage others! I think another topic is needed ... Perhaps a little later today. Originally by: Belmarduk back to topic: Yes of course one can evade the salvagers or blow ones own wrecks up before. But this is not the point. Highsec should ONLY protect direct pvp not anything else - it gets too "carebeary" otherwise. Well, and that's what I'm saying. Yes, we can run away, or salvage faster, or blow up our own wrecks, or let 'em go ... or take some iniative and gank the ninjas (or try, anyway). That latter is a risk any of us run anytime we undock - oh, perhaps to a greater or lesser degree, depending upon the situation - and tiny frail ships the ninjas run are just as susceptible to it as any other. Is there a cost to it (i.e. that protection on direct pvp you mention)? Yeah ... but fact is, the ninjas are vulnerable to pilots who are willing to accept their own risk and go for 'em. Indeed, I see no reason why it could not become a cottage industry itself - just like popping afk macro miners can be - when all it takes is willingness to do it and a little bit of money. It can pay for itself. Even the sec hit a body'll take will be cured by the missioning ... or there's always the alt. Originally by: Belmarduk CCP rethink your stance about salvaging please Maybe so - and I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing; simply saying I don't see CCP changing it, and there is an alternative means to bring the pain to these folks, if we choose. Mongo, the Merciless Carebear and Frito Muncher Extraordinaire
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:29:00 - [131] Edited by: Tippia on 06/06/2008 16:35:51 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The counter, of course, is if EVE is a cold, dark, dangerous place, why is not not cold, dark and dangerous for the Salvage Ninjas? …and again: it is just as cold, dark and dangerous for them as for the mission runners. Originally by: Belmarduk ding ding YAAY We have a winner - Someone gets it !!!! You might not have noticed this by everyone has gotten it – it's just that most don't buy because it's a thoroughly hypocritical argument. Until the missions become even remotely dangerous, and the rewards far less static, any complaint about the (supposedly) low risk and high rewards of the ninjas will fall on deaf ears. It is a particularly silly argument since the mission runners already have plenty of ways to make sure their salvage isn't stolen.
Fraszoid ULTRA VEGA	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:33:00 - [132] If you are so worried about salvage thieves there are many things you can do; salvage as you go, bring a friend, destroy your wrecks, run missions that have crap salvage anyway. Salvaging is akin to rummaging through peoples garbage, once its out its public domain. -------------------------------------------------- Everyone is born right handed, only the great over come it. Check out my players guide at: http://www.eve-miners.info/guide/minersguide.html
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:37:00 - [133] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 06/06/2008 16:38:02 Originally by: Tippia ...and again: it just as cold, dark and dangerous for them as for the mission runners. Plus the salvage profession, unlike missionrunning: has problems of congestion, comes with higher excludability and is voulnerable to market fluctuations to a greater extent.
Sierra Lima	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:40:00 - [134] Edited by: Sierra Lima on 06/06/2008 16:40:50 Quote: Just let the missioners shoot at the thieves without being Concorded. You really, really don't want this to happen, that means he has 15 minutes to hop into his specialised anti-mission runners ship and jump back to your mission to see if you're still there. If you thought someone salvaging your wrecks was a problem, imagine imagine having to either fight for your wrecks, or waiting out the timer and seeing if you're wrecks were still there when you get back to your mission.
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:41:00 - [135] That fabled "safer than 1.0" situation doesn't just happen of it's own accord, you know. Real players actually have to do stuff to make it happen. Try putting some effort, expense and risk into making your environment safer and you might be surprised at the results. Oh I realy like to act as a Headhunter or Anti-Pirate ... but well, if I do so I get busted by the CONCORD while I try to defend the Law of CONCORD ... ****zo but it is as it is. Defend the Law => get butsted by CONCORD Maybe CONCORD is a Pirat Corp itselve?
Tellnan Matkiel Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:44:00 - [136] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Jane Raiden What part of eve is a cold, dark, dangerous place do you not get? Snippage of all the elitist (and in this case insulting) PvPer's are better/more important crap. The sentence above is the main part of the post. The counter, of course, is if EVE is a cold, dark, dangerous place, why is not not cold, dark and dangerous for the Salvage Ninjas? No one is asking for them to made go away by fiat. Just let the missioners shoot at the thieves without being Concorded. Problem solved, EVE is cold, dark and dangerous for everyone. It's hardly rocket science. Mission runners already have methods of exacting revenge - it just requires a little bit of effort. The mission runner takes a few of those iskies that have been earned (and any serious L4 mission runner should have plenty of iskies) and head over to C&P and hire a bunch of mercenaries to pod the offending salvager. The mission runner gets his revenge, the salvager gets punishment. No need for CCP to do anything at all.
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:46:00 - [137] Edited by: Xparky on 06/06/2008 16:48:08 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The counter, of course, is if EVE is a cold, dark, dangerous place, why is not not cold, dark and dangerous for the Salvage Ninjas? àand again: it just as cold, dark and dangerous for them as for the mission runners. Let's see : 1. Salvager profession Risks : Getting suicide ganked Getting killed by rats Reward(s) Some salvage 2. Hi sec Mission Runner profession Risks : Getting suicide ganked Getting killed by rats Reward(s) Corp and faction standings increase Rat bounties, loot and possibly salvage Mission ISK reward and ISK bonus Loyalty points to use in the store for faction items As you can see the Mission Runner Profession is much more rewarding (and has the same risks) than Salvager's. Hi sec mission running is already too easy and with too many rewards. Now you also want exclusive rights on the salvage. Because no, the rest just isn't enough. Ever thought you'll get killed more if you shoot at someone ? Cuz you know, they'll come back in a ship fitted especially for you. .
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:49:00 - [138] Mission runners already have methods of exacting revenge - it just requires a little bit of effort. The mission runner takes a few of those iskies that have been earned (and any serious L4 mission runner should have plenty of iskies) and head over to C&P and hire a bunch of mercenaries to pod the offending salvager. The mission runner gets his revenge, the salvager gets punishment. No need for CCP to do anything at all. Highly exploideble way. MercCorp starts alt-char with salvager, ninjas some missions, offers help with main-chars, kill alt-char POD, repeat. Risk: SERO WIN: lots of salvage from alt, lots of ISK from mains
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:50:00 - [139] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Highly exploideble way. that's not exploiting that's playing smart .
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:53:00 - [140] Originally by: Xparky stuff …and that's because I felt like being generous when equating the two. Now add to that list the actual player skill needed for each profession. Probing people out (while admittedly not the hardest thing in the world) takes a fair bit of practice and specialized skills and equipment on top of what you need to do your dirty work in the mission area. For missions you train skills you would have trained anyway, and it is as F1-F8 as anything in this game gets. Oh dear, sometimes you might need to balance aggro (if your tank sucks), but that's what eve-survival.org is for. Big whoop.
Belmarduk de Prieure Four Elements	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:58:00 - [141] Originally by: Sierra Lima Edited by: Sierra Lima on 06/06/2008 16:40:50 Quote: Just let the missioners shoot at the thieves without being Concorded. You really, really don't want this to happen, that means he has 15 minutes to hop into his specialised anti-mission runners ship and jump back to your mission to see if you're still there. If you thought someone salvaging your wrecks was a problem, imagine imagine having to either fight for your wrecks, or waiting out the timer and seeing if you're wrecks were still there when you get back to your mission. Yep i would that option please - That would be what Eve is meant to be - not free safe salvage for everyone... CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:02:00 - [142] Originally by: Belmarduk [Yep i would that option please - That would be what Eve is meant to be - not free safe salvage for everyone... It's only free and safe because the mission runners let it be – they have the option to make it non-free and unsafe if they choose to. If they don't, they're either too stupid or too lazy and either way, they only have themselves to blame.
Dayanara Ryell Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:19:00 - [143] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I honestly think that a big part of WHY this is such an issue for the mission runners is that, to be entirely and brutally honest, the salvage is too good. It's not at all unusual for the salvage to be worth more than the item drops and the mission pay combined in L3s and L4s, so from that standpoint Concord's approach doesn't make sense. I hear the "salvage worth more then the mission + loot" excuse quite a bit but from almost* every experience that I have had this is not even close to being true. *The only situation that I have seen where the salvage was worth more than the mission + loot is if you get lucky with an Angel mission and rack up a mess of trit bars. Otherwise, the salvage is just a fraction of the overall take. When I don't ninja-salvage I run missions and have only ever had 1 person probe me out and start to salvage while I was there. I promply said hello and extended a corp invite. Day We're Recruiting!
Adour The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:25:00 - [144] Edited by: Adour on 06/06/2008 17:28:50 Edited by: Adour on 06/06/2008 17:27:44 Edited by: Adour on 06/06/2008 17:26:08 Edited by: Adour on 06/06/2008 17:25:46 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Sierra Lima You really, really don't want this to happen, that means he has 15 minutes to hop into his specialised anti-mission runners ship and jump back to your mission to see if you're still there. Actually, I do. It would increase the hazards of mission running (making it more interesting) as well as making such theft a job for folks who are interested in something more than free ISK. Besides, if I do that and he runs off in his pod, I can disengage too and hang out in my PvP ship to see if he tries to show up in his anti mission ship etc. If it occurred, it would add an entirely new dynamic. However, you're wrong that it would shake out like this for the simple reason that it hasn't already. Do you see this problem with loot? Nope. But what you describe could easily happen with loot, particularly valuable loot, which is theft to take. Why doesn't it happen? Because the ninja salvagers aren't interested in a fight. If they were they'd be taking the loot and doing precisely what you describe. They are interested in what amounts to free ISK with no effort and no hassle - yes, even less hassle or risk than the mission runners as very frequently the ninjas show up after all the baddies are downed and the missioner is off getting his or her lootship. What you describe is, theoretically, possible. But it's also possible now and doesn't happen which pretty much means it won't if salvaging were theft. This does happen and is very profitable, when a certian element of the playerbasse asked for can agro it was given, you now see thread after thread of complaints from people who don't understand how the agro works, I can assure you the pirates do. My Corp an I have made a considerable ammount of money pretneding to be nija salvagers and 'screwing up' allowing the mission runner to get his agro, it is hillarious as they beat their chests in local saying how they forced you to run only to end up dying to a vexor (yes its true) minutes later and losing all sorts of juicy faction loot. Although some of you may welcome this 'more interesting' element to mission running, I can assure you that the vast majority of mission runners will have no idea what is happening until they end up in their pod. As with can agro, be careful what you wish for, giving salvage agro would just mean more pirates in your systems and not less, and once it was widespread the vast majority would no longer use their agro rights (as is the case now with can agro) and we would be back to where we are now...
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:36:00 - [145] Oh look, another carebear whine thread. Oh and look, it's from the same guy who posted the last two or three. But wait, now he'll post and say "not me, I'm an uber PVPer, I'm just speaking on behalf of... my friends" like he did in the last couple threads. LOL somebody run a locator agent and tell us where Amastat's "network of agents" are! ---------------- [insert signature here]
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:40:00 - [146] It's a wreck, why should anyone 'own' a wreck? it's a piece of space detritus... Perhaps the NPC's should come back with loads of firepower, EW and warp scramblers and shoot you in the face for stealing from them in the first place? -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Van'Klomp The Legendary Fleet	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:41:00 - [147] I have made considerable amounts of ISK mission running for a long time. Never once have I been ninja-salvaged. How do I do it? As if I'm going to let on that little gem, I have a ninja salvage char as well and I don't want everyone cottoning in do I now? Needless to say I adapted, and I still run missions. Quit crying and work out method of not leaving wrecks lying around. ------ This is a signature, no?
Cassandra Valieries	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:46:00 - [148] You mean that you let your drones waste the rats while you loot/salvage? That works wonderfully
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:51:00 - [149] Originally by: Dayanara Ryell I hear the "salvage worth more then the mission + loot" excuse quite a bit but from almost* every experience that I have had this is not even close to being true. Day Well, I am in the unique position of having a LOT of data on this particular topic. Probably more than most. When I first started playing (keep in mind I'm very much an RP type not a 'gamey' type in real life I've even had several modules for pen and paper RPGs published globally) I decided that 'salvaging' wasn't something that Jarvis would really do - not when he had ship skills to learn. So for a VERY long time my wrecks either went unsalvaged or were salvaged by a corpmate who usually cut me 50% for doing the killing. The amount I made from those 50% cuts virtually always exceeded the mission pay and bounties and that was after it was cut in half! Eventually I found that there were too many times when I was online missioning and there was no one online to salvage. I didn't mind sharing that ISK with my corpmates but didn't like leaving it floating in space so I sucked it up and learned to salvage and built a specialized lootship so as to do it quickly. There is NO fiction to what I write about salvage. It's true for me and I'm not even particularly good at it - for characters that are it's even more lucrative. Example - we recently ran an L4 mission, just myself and a corp mate. Mission pay was a bit under 2 million (which we split of course). Bounties were about another 2 million each. My HALF of the loot and salvage was over 11 million ISK and more of that was salvage than loot. There is, of course, a random factor involved and it's not always like that, but anyone who salvages and loots properly and keeps track of the numbers will tell you that salvage makes up a very large percentage of what you can glean from a mission. It's not always the majority of the mission but combined loot and salvage will, in my experience, always vastly exceed mission pay and bounties. Sometimes it's the loot that's good, sometimes it's the salvage. Rarely both but it's always worth the time to collect and I cannot recall a mission where the mission pay and bounties ever exceeded the loot and salvage.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:54:00 - [150] Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's a wreck, why should anyone 'own' a wreck? it's a piece of space detritus... Oh - I dunno. Maybe because if I haul the contents of it back to a station they give me 700,000 ISK? Nope, can't understand why anyone would want to own that at all. Completely nonsensical.
Bleeshtar	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:59:00 - [151] Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's a wreck, why should anyone 'own' a wreck? it's a piece of space detritus... Perhaps the NPC's should come back with loads of firepower, EW and warp scramblers and shoot you in the face for stealing from them in the first place? Hes got a point, not just this game but basically any rpg. The NPC's tend to fight to the death to the last man. Rarely if ever do they call in rienforcements nor do they seem to have the fight or flight instinct. I dont see the ninja salvage epidemic that far removed honestly from the can flipping miner harrasement thing.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:02:00 - [152] Salvage, as in space trash, right? What makes you think you have dibs on the space trash? In all seriousness- once upon a time, there was no salvage. You ran a mission, and you got the mission reward + loot. That was it. CCP put measures in place to protect loot, on the basis that they were trying to put as much of the reward for doing the mission in loot as possible (so as to avoid spawning billions of isk out of the air); obviously, if you're making loot a vital part of mission rewards, a system needs to be in place to stop it all being stolen without possibility of retaliation. Then salvage was put in. It was NOT put in as a way of increasing the pay out for running missions. It was put in to be like mining- a way people could trawl around inhabited space, collecting materials. It is reasonable to assume that people will try to take any salvage. It does not belong explicitly to the missioner, because it was never intended to belong to the mission runner; it is not free money. Complaining about people taking something that doesn't, and was never meant to belong to mission runners is nonsense. If you think it is profitable, go give it a try yourself. Why shouldn't it be profitable? ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Dayanara Ryell Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:02:00 - [153] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom ... I cannot recall a mission where the mission pay and bounties ever exceeded the loot and salvage. Stop combining loot and salvage; it's throwing your numbers off. Loot gets combined with your mission pay and bounties. Against that you will almost never find salvaging being worth more than that. Day We're Recruiting!
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:20:00 - [154] Jarvis, roleplay-issues should never supersede gamebalance-issues.
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:30:00 - [155] I got on my navy mega a tractor beam in 8th high slot, i use it to loot all battleship wrecks that are within range. That doesnt cost me any extra time, and does increase isk. Then if i look at isk/hour for doing mission and isk/hour for salvaging and getting remaining loot, it is just not worth it to salvage 95% of the missions. serp and guristas suck, bloodraider is decent but less than doing the mission, angels it depends a bit, i think on average per hour a bit more isk, but it is very boring. So i basicly only salvage angel extra if i got time. But still then it isnt an impressive ammount of isk/hour i get from it. Not having salvage in general does not decrease your isk/hour. Of course when you do missions vs faction navies you got to loot every ship anyway, so you got to get your salvage ship anyway afterwards and you might as well salvage, then salvaging does increase isk/hour. I just prefer to deny those missions. Finally, those whining at carebears whining, shut up. The ammount of non carebears whining is at least as impressive, if not more impressive. (I do both carebearing and pvp).
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:35:00 - [156] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's a wreck, why should anyone 'own' a wreck? it's a piece of space detritus... Oh - I dunno. Maybe because if I haul the contents of it back to a station they give me 700,000 ISK? Nope, can't understand why anyone would want to own that at all. Completely nonsensical. 'Wanting' doesn't come into it. Why should you 'own' a wreck? -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:36:00 - [157] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker LOL somebody run a locator agent and tell us where Amastat's "network of agents" are! Heorah. Don't worry - I make so much cash on salvage, I can afford it
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:38:00 - [158] Originally by: Dayanara Ryell Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I honestly think that a big part of WHY this is such an issue for the mission runners is that, to be entirely and brutally honest, the salvage is too good. It's not at all unusual for the salvage to be worth more than the item drops and the mission pay combined in L3s and L4s, so from that standpoint Concord's approach doesn't make sense. I hear the "salvage worth more then the mission + loot" excuse quite a bit but from almost* every experience that I have had this is not even close to being true. *The only situation that I have seen where the salvage was worth more than the mission + loot is if you get lucky with an Angel mission and rack up a mess of trit bars. Otherwise, the salvage is just a fraction of the overall take. When I don't ninja-salvage I run missions and have only ever had 1 person probe me out and start to salvage while I was there. I promply said hello and extended a corp invite. Day I just did Gur/Serp Worlds Collide 4 and the salvage was crap. frankly if anyone wanted it they'd be a fool for wasting the time. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:42:00 - [159] Originally by: Cpt Fina Jarvis, roleplay-issues should never supersede gamebalance-issues. That is an opinion, and like all opinions there are others which differ or are entirely opposed. Personally (having done game design for a living for awhile - granted for RPGs) I find the two inextricably linked. I've played games where 'balance' was king and they weren't fun because balance was so important that roleplay was utterly ruined (the Hero system comes to mind). Also, balance is notoriously hard to get right and usually the best any designer manages is 'close enough and hope that the holes aren't too big'. Conversely, approaching from the other end can frequently work better - at least in 'real' RPGs. However, there is endless debate even as to what EVE IS which makes all opinions on the matter rather moot. All of which is a long way of saying that your point of view is entirely valid, but I don't share it.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:44:00 - [160] Originally by: Dayanara Ryell Stop combining loot and salvage; it's throwing your numbers off. Loot gets combined with your mission pay and bounties. Against that you will almost never find salvaging being worth more than that. Day I will have to disagree with you here. To me they are exactly and precisely the same. Whatever CCP decided in the past, I look at what I see NOW. I go out. I kill stuff. I pick stuff up. None of part 3 occurs without parts 1 and 2. To me (and to many others I expect) they're all part and parcel. That may, indeed, be part of the root cause of the entire argument.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:52:00 - [161] Originally by: Gabriel Karade 'Wanting' doesn't come into it. Why should you 'own' a wreck? æSalvage thiefÆ is an oxymoron, they simply got there and salvaged it before you. Straw man argument. Before I accepted the mission and then expended resources (time, ammunition etc.) to create it there was no wreck. Really people seeing wrecks they took risks to make as 'theirs' isn't hard to wrap one's head around. Indeed, I find it hard to see it any other way as it makes no logical sense. It's not in the least like an asteroid (another red herring argument) as no one 'made' the asteroid. It is more akin to constructing a module, expending time and materials and then having someone come along and walk off with it and everyone saying 'Well it's not 'yours' really.' I made it. It would not BE there were it not for my efforts. Therefore it's mine.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:59:00 - [162] Originally by: Malcanis I just did Gur/Serp Worlds Collide 4 and the salvage was crap. frankly if anyone wanted it they'd be a fool for wasting the time. One mission is not universal experience. Level of Salvage skill, salvage rigs etc. all play a part as does the 'luck' of drops (both salvage and loot). I've had missions where the loot was utter garbage but we came out with 20 trit bars plus other stuff (Well over 13 million in Salvage) and the loot was worth around 1.5 million, the mission pay about 2. There is certainly a random element involved. One mission does not an argument for policy make.
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:01:00 - [163] Originally by: Dayanara Ryell Stop combining loot and salvage; it's throwing your numbers off. Loot gets combined with your mission pay and bounties. Against that you will almost never find salvaging being worth more than that. Wrong, wrong, wrongitty wrong! I have found that MOST times (especially since Revelations hit and the loot tables were reduced) Salvage will not only exceed the value of the mission reward, it will exceed the value of the bounty reward, it will exceed the value of the LOOT reward (assuming you sell 100% of the loot immediately) and will FREQUENTLY exceed the value of all three combined. Yes, there are those times that your salvage is nothing but Metal Scraps and other common low-value items, but I have found that L4 missions have large amounts of very valuable salvage very often. I have run missions AND Ninja Salvaged (There are some mission-runners in one particular hub that HATE me! )and I can tell you that when I ninja salvage, if I hit an average to good mission I can make upwards of 10 million in salvage. And yes, I have also been Ninja-Salvaged. I've also been mission pirated. It happens, you get over it and you move on. Crying on the forums is stupid and annoying. Now get back to missioning so I can ninja-salvage your mission!
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:05:00 - [164] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Malcanis I just did Gur/Serp Worlds Collide 4 and the salvage was crap. frankly if anyone wanted it they'd be a fool for wasting the time. One mission is not universal experience. Level of Salvage skill, salvage rigs etc. all play a part as does the 'luck' of drops (both salvage and loot). I've had missions where the loot was utter garbage but we came out with 20 trit bars plus other stuff (Well over 13 million in Salvage) and the loot was worth around 1.5 million, the mission pay about 2. There is certainly a random element involved. One mission does not an argument for policy make. I never said it did. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:13:00 - [165] Originally by: Malcanis I never said it did. Then what was the point of the post? Hmm. I think I'll do up a quick and dirty spreadsheet for a week or so then just post the real numbers and be done with it.
Laae Aenus Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:15:00 - [166] Threads like this make me wanna train astrometrics & probes and become a ninja salvager... As it has been said before, stay out of hubs, it's that easy. I've ran hundreds of missions, never even saw someone else salvaging my stuff, unless I gave him a fleet invite.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:30:00 - [167] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 06/06/2008 19:43:46 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Gabriel Karade 'Wanting' doesn't come into it. Why should you 'own' a wreck? æSalvage thiefÆ is an oxymoron, they simply got there and salvaged it before you. Straw man argument. Before I accepted the mission and then expended resources (time, ammunition etc.) to create it there was no wreck. Really people seeing wrecks they took risks to make as 'theirs' isn't hard to wrap one's head around. Indeed, I find it hard to see it any other way as it makes no logical sense. It's not in the least like an asteroid (another red herring argument) as no one 'made' the asteroid. It is more akin to constructing a module, expending time and materials and then having someone come along and walk off with it and everyone saying 'Well it's not 'yours' really.' I made it. It would not BE there were it not for my efforts. Therefore it's mine. The wreck wasn't 'your' ship, it was either another players or an NPC's ship, they expended the time and effort into building it, you didn't, if anything it's 'their' wreck... the very definition of salvage: 1. the recovery of a ship or its contents or cargo after damage or sinking. 2. the material recovered and the compensation to those who recover it. 3. the rescue and use of any found or discarded material. So where's 'theft' come into it? Oh that's right it doesn't, hence why it's working exactly as CCP intended -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gilahan Mcortama A-L-O-N-E	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:35:00 - [168] Originally by: Dayanara Ryell Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom ... I cannot recall a mission where the mission pay and bounties ever exceeded the loot and salvage. Stop combining loot and salvage; it's throwing your numbers off. Loot gets combined with your mission pay and bounties. Against that you will almost never find salvaging being worth more than that. Day I would remove just one word. Then agree. If you make more money form salvaging then you are not killing hostiles in missions fast enough.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:36:00 - [169] I think I'm going to name my band "Salvage Thief Epidemic." That's awesome. Just to put something on- topic in here: Reason why salvage and loot aren't the same for purposes of this argument is that loot theft from missions isn't currently "protected" under game mechanics, whereas salvage theft is. Since your loot harvest isn't under threat from ninja salvagers I don't see why it should even enter the question at this time. ___________________________________________
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:53:00 - [170] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom There is, of course, a random factor involved and it's not always like that, but anyone who salvages and loots properly and keeps track of the numbers will tell you that salvage makes up a very large percentage of what you can glean from a mission. It's not always the majority of the mission but combined loot and salvage will, in my experience, always vastly exceed mission pay and bounties. Sometimes it's the loot that's good, sometimes it's the salvage. Rarely both but it's always worth the time to collect and I cannot recall a mission where the mission pay and bounties ever exceeded the loot and salvage. And if the salvage is so valuable, do what you need to do in order to get it. Team up, use an alt, make an arrangement with a salvager, salvage as you go, mission somewhere without a bunch of ninjas flying around... You have the bookmark, so you've got your headstart. Worst case scenario: just keep doing what you're doing, and still get most of the salvage most of the time, as well as your other rewards. I understand how difficult it must be for hisec mission runners who have traditionally been 99.9% insulated in deadspace from the rest of EVE to wrap their minds around this, but it is a classic case of people being given something really valuable and complaining about it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:56:00 - [171] The problem isn't who get's the loot/salvage ... it's jsut that there are no legit ways to defend the stuff as you will be CONCORDed emidietly if you attack the thief.
Devon Vorberg Eagle Security and Transport	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:12:00 - [172] Originally by: Jack Jombardo The problem isn't who get's the loot/salvage ... it's jsut that there are no legit ways to defend the stuff as you will be CONCORDed emidietly if you attack the thief. That's easy. Just run missions in low-sec. There are plenty of agents in low-sec too. Then you can shoot da t'ieves.
Devon Vorberg Eagle Security and Transport	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:15:00 - [173] Originally by: Chzandri how about hiring two newbies, giving them two destroyers, and taking them along on the missions so that they can get to salvaging right after? your newbies will quickly cover a lot of wrecks in two dessies, you get some portion of salvage material and make two newbies very happy by sharing some of it with them, and you'll make the salvage thieves very frustrated ... this is a much better alternative than going around blowing your own wrecks up you gotta agree This is the smartest post on this thread. You beat the theives, and you help some noobs. Noobs who will someday probably be decent pilots, and can watch your back when you decide to do something a little more dangerous than fly around hi-sec all day. Everyone wins.
Cruthensis Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:17:00 - [174] OP: Until now I wrecked farmer missions exclusively, leaving real players alone. From now, I'm going to make a special exception, just for you. _________________________ The "Lofty" trick is no more. Fleets are BACK! Coming soon to farmer infestation near you: Fleets of the Willing
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:25:00 - [175] Salvage thieving must be absolutely terrible for income. First you have to scan down a mission runner and hope he's not doing recon 3 of 3. Then you gotta find one that is doing a mission with good salvage (nothing against EoM or mercs.) Then you gotta find one that isn't salvaging as he goes. Then you gotta find one that actually cares about his salvage and wont' just blow his wrecks as he goes to deny you income. Then, you gotta afterburner over to each and every wreck to salvage it, because you can't use tractor beams on stuff that isn't yours. in short, you'd be better off running L4 missions of your own.
Cagot Ion Corp. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:29:00 - [176] Originally by: Devon Vorberg That's easy. Just run missions in low-sec. There are plenty of agents in low-sec too. Then you can shoot da t'ieves. Signed. I'll even make a suggestion: Aeschee has about half a dozen IV/20 agents, and is only a couple jumps out of high sec. Fit for the possibility that you'll be scanned down, and you'll get all the shots you need at the salvagers. And, by the way, I disagree with the title of the thread. Although I only salvage my own stuff, CCP has made it clear (and I agree) that salvage, unlike loot, is available to all comers, so the eponymous salvagers are not thieves. If you don't like it, try some of the countermeasures suggested here. Also, I find that scanning and killing drone anomalies in 0.0 gives a lot of excellent salvage, and I've never met a foreign salvager in one of them. The occasional attempted ganker, of course...
Bart Roberts Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:37:00 - [177] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Dayanara Ryell Stop combining loot and salvage; it's throwing your numbers off. Loot gets combined with your mission pay and bounties. Against that you will almost never find salvaging being worth more than that. Day I will have to disagree with you here. To me they are exactly and precisely the same. Whatever CCP decided in the past, I look at what I see NOW. I go out. I kill stuff. I pick stuff up. None of part 3 occurs without parts 1 and 2. To me (and to many others I expect) they're all part and parcel. That may, indeed, be part of the root cause of the entire argument. Indeed. Perspective is at the root of the argument. From your perspective, salvage and loot are one and the same. From my perspective, they are not. Fortunately for me, CCP, the gods who specify the rules of the EVE universe, have gone on record -- on more than one occasion -- as supporting the perspective that I happen to favour. They have not wavered on this despite numerous threads that have provided them with a mountain of data regarding players' opinions on this issue. I credit CCP with having had enough smarts to come up with an entertaining, well balanced and robust game system overall, and therefore am also inclined to credit them with knowing what they are doing as regards this well known, oft-argued point of "religious" contention!
Mika Meroko Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:38:00 - [178] oh god, the true-bear brigade is out..(and I thought I was a bear) seriously... CCP made their decision about salvage being up for grabs... which makes sense.. is "garbage" (just like in RL, the husk belong to the party who fished it out... while the contents inside the husk has to be returned to owners) and yea, I can see it now... next they will ask for loot and salvage to drop in your cargo hold... but seriously... if you want to shoot people just cause they come in... go to low/0.0... you can shoot anybody there =P as for the isk arguement.. if you are in a T2 CNR with max support and weapon skills, you can do most lvl 4 in under 25 minutes...you would make more money than coming back with a salvage ship and salvage everything...(less clicking too) I Dont loot or salvage... cause on average... I would make more in 1 day if I consistenty turn in missions I blitz though. than to hope for something good drops. try it... spend a day missioning and looting/salvaging and spend a day just blitzing missions...now do both for a week and add up the total. you would make a tad (from my rough math... and my speed missioning) 15 to 20% more with less grief....
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:44:00 - [179] Originally by: Gabriel Karade the very definition of salvage: 1. the recovery of a ship or its contents or cargo after damage or sinking. 2. the material recovered and the compensation to those who recover it. 3. the rescue and use of any found or discarded material. So where's 'theft' come into it? Oh that's right it doesn't, hence why it's working exactly as CCP intended "Theft" comes into it when you start examining maritime law and how salvage is applied. You can look up "Mining" and you won't see anything about claim jumping either but that didn't stop a lot of people being killed over it.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:47:00 - [180] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske I understand how difficult it must be for hisec mission runners who have traditionally been 99.9% insulated in deadspace from the rest of EVE to wrap their minds around this, but it is a classic case of people being given something really valuable and complaining about it. To be honest it isn't a 'personal' problem for me as it rarely happens (I don't live in a hub area). I think it may have happened once or twice but I've never caught anyone at it, just wondered why there were less wrecks than I recalled there being. I just happen to believe that the current handling of it is wrong.
Guillame Herschel The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.06 21:25:00 - [181] Originally by: Amastat I'm having a hard time seeing how a steep drop in raw materials will help. That would cause there to be less supply of minerals, modules, and salvage in particular. What happens if all that supply disappears while a huge demand remains? Dude. Salvaging has been in game for almost a year. Whatever dire consequences that would result, have already happened. Give it up. Quote: Either way - I have little or nothing to complain about anymore, because I'm giving up mission running. Oh God, that hurts to the bone! Please don't give up missioning, I swear I won't ninja salvage again. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Smantha Dering Syntek Technology	Posted - 2008.06.06 21:32:00 - [182] Edited by: Smantha Dering on 06/06/2008 21:33:35 OP, you are wrong on soooo many levels. First, the bit about wealthy players salvaging for the big isk. Wrong, most salvagers are fairly new, low sp. Lots of isk. Wrong! I have been salvaging missions lately just to cause aggravation. I can tell you with certainty that salvaging was not good isk at all, I was doing better running missions. Mission runners will quit if they can't have their salvage. WRONG! Wrong on so many levels. Mission isk is a sure thing, missioners won't quit and many don't salvage their wrecks or even loot them. I have seen people finish missions and then end them without returning to get their wrecks. Salvagers use cheap ships. Wrong! Maybe you should actually ask around, lots have sisters recon launchers which cost 40m+. I know salvagers who use Covert-ops ships to probe you down. Last thing I can say is many salvagers also steal your loots, there is your opening to shoot them. Anyway, cry some more, ccp isn't going to change salvage it was meant to be a profession and now some people are finally making it viable. edit I am coming for your wrecks now and it's your own doing
Smantha Dering Syntek Technology	Posted - 2008.06.06 21:42:00 - [183] I would also like to add that your assumption about salvagers being in npc corps is also wrong. Suddenly Ninjas? among others, I am in a player corp and I ninja salvage as well. You have no clue about anything you mentioned.
Nyterra	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:15:00 - [184] Originally by: Belmarduk Yes of course one can evade the salvagers or blow ones own wrecks up before.But this is not the point. Highsec should ONLY protect direct pvp not anything else - it gets too "carebeary" otherwise CCP rethink your stance about salvaging please Wait ... what? If Highsec should ONLY protect one from direct PvP (i.e., CONCORD spanking those that initiate illegal violence), they WHY oh WHY would it stop the ninja-salvager? Your statement is self-contradictory; you can't have it both ways! I refuse to use the term salvage-thief for these individuals, because wrecks do NOT belong to the mission runner/person that popped th ships. They belong to whoever salvages them first, as plenty of others have stated.
Nyterra	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:32:00 - [185] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's a wreck, why should anyone 'own' a wreck? it's a piece of space detritus... Oh - I dunno. Maybe because if I haul the contents of it back to a station they give me 700,000 ISK? Nope, can't understand why anyone would want to own that at all. Completely nonsensical. The contents are yours ... once you dig them out of the wreck and haul them back where you can get 700k for them. The wreck itself, on the other hand, does not belong to anyone.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:42:00 - [186] Originally by: Mika Meroko if you are in a T2 CNR with max support and weapon skills, you can do most lvl 4 in under 25 minutes...you would make more money than coming back with a salvage ship and salvage everything...(less clicking too) I Dont loot or salvage... cause on average... I would make more in 1 day if I consistenty turn in missions I blitz though. than to hope for something good drops. try it... spend a day missioning and looting/salvaging and spend a day just blitzing missions...now do both for a week and add up the total. In no-sec I often operate like this, not bothering to salvage or loot very much. In Empire my experience so far is that it would cost me ISK, probably a lot of it. However I can't run missions as fast as you and I have a specialized lootship which ups my net loot and salvage and cuts my time. However I'll give it a try and analyze it. I'll let you know.
Jarvis Hellstrom	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:47:00 - [187] Originally by: Nyterra The contents are yours ... once you dig them out of the wreck and haul them back where you can get 700k for them. The wreck itself, on the other hand, does not belong to anyone. Well fine then, if you'd like to split hairs give me ownership of everything that makes up that 700kISK and I'm good. That means all the trit bars, the charred or fried circuits etc. Modules on top of that of course. The 'salvagers' can have the empty and valueless hulk. I can care less about that.
Amarrian Cougar TalCorp Enterprises Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:50:00 - [188] You mean you can salvage yellow wrecks without fear of being shot at? Sheesh, I know what I'm doing after work today.
Smantha Dering Syntek Technology	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:53:00 - [189] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Nyterra The contents are yours ... once you dig them out of the wreck and haul them back where you can get 700k for them. The wreck itself, on the other hand, does not belong to anyone. Well fine then, if you'd like to split hairs give me ownership of everything that makes up that 700kISK and I'm good. That means all the trit bars, the charred or fried circuits etc. Modules on top of that of course. The 'salvagers' can have the empty and valueless hulk. I can care less about that. As long as you happen to salvage those things first, sure they are yours. If I get to them first, they will be mine along with the loot in the can because I will take that too. Good luck with the reprisal too, most times you won't know I am there anyway. Unlike some salvagers I wait until you've moved to the next area before I decloak, salvage your wrecks and steal your loots.
Nyterra	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:59:00 - [190] Edited by: Nyterra on 06/06/2008 22:59:39 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Nyterra The contents are yours ... once you dig them out of the wreck and haul them back where you can get 700k for them. The wreck itself, on the other hand, does not belong to anyone. Well fine then, if you'd like to split hairs give me ownership of everything that makes up that 700kISK and I'm good. That means all the trit bars, the charred or fried circuits etc. Modules on top of that of course. The 'salvagers' can have the empty and valueless hulk. I can care less about that. If you salvage the wreck first, its yours. I have never had a problem with that. Sure, I'll try and stop you if its in my mission, but I won't try to claim the wreck or any salvage it contains are mine until it's in my hold. The loot, on the other hand, belongs to whoever owned the ship before it was popped. I leave that alone, cause I'm not a thief. [edit for typo]
Karasuma Akane Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.06.07 01:52:00 - [191] Originally by: Amastat High-sec Salvage Theft There is no such thing. You can't steal salvage, silly. ---------- "annoyed trit bars can deliver quite an income" Originally by: Richard Phallus Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas damn spies. Damn counter intelligence officers.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.06.07 02:12:00 - [192] Originally by: Karasuma Akane Originally by: Amastat High-sec Salvage Theft There is no such thing. You can't steal salvage, silly. Technically you can, but usually it involves blowing up a player's ship. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Necromancy Black	Posted - 2008.06.07 09:17:00 - [193] Well after reading all 7 pages of replies I am now more informed and probably down 24 points on my IQ score. So what I can see it's already balanced out well and is a three peice set: Basically this is happening in high-sec, as CONCORD don't care about salvaging here and in low-sec you can shoot back. As it goes high-sec missioning is more risk free then lowsec, simply because people can't warp in and shoot up up and do REALLY nasty things. So with this, it makes sense that the rewards for high-sec missions should be less, and as part of this, you stand to possibly loose salvage without being able to retalite back. But this is not an exploit, but a game mechanic. The difference isn't just because CPP says so, but because things can be done to reduce or even remove it's impact. The examples have been stated before, but lets go through some more. As people have said the first thing you can do is salvage as you fly, reducing the number of wrecks about when a ninja appears. If you haven't got the space in your current ship to hold it all then eject them into space and pick them up later. If the ninja's touch you cans their open to retalidation (wow, that more induendo then I thought). Yes, this takes longer, and adds more risk to the missions, but that's just replacing the risk of a BS pirate warping in and podding your arse. But if you still think is is too hard, with the time it takes and the slots lost, then take someone else with you, like a corp mate or someone else who wants to run some missions for a bit of standing. Get them to salvage while you fight then split the profits. Also, by the sounds of it, most people who are having issues with this are flying solo for various reasons and can't usually find someone to help them. I see this as a gameplay mechanic. Safety in numbers and teamwork are a part of Eve, a part of every MMO, and by working in a group here you reduce the risks and the full rewards, devided up accordingly (again, a trade off for lack of risk). As a group, you can remove any chance of a salvage ninja stealing loot by just cleaning it up before he can get close to it. So yes, you can do things solo to help prevent the ninjas, and you can do alot more as a group. Choosing between a group, salvaging as you go or salvaging after the mission are all trade offs that compliment the game mechanics and are actaully balanced for everything, missioners and ninja's alike. Finally, I mentioned at the start there were 3 things. I've mentioned the risk/reward trade offs and solo/group trade offs. The final is the difference between cans and wrecks. Bassically cans and wrecks should stay appart. It takes no still or experiance to open a can, take whats inside, then more to the next one. You see a can drop, there's something inside, just zoom to it and have a look. Salvaging however involves training up the skills for both salvaging and other complimentry skills (AB, tractor beam).... Ok, I started writing this about 6 hours ago before I realised I was an idiot, couldn't read a timetable and was late for work , so the whole point of number 3 ends there as I cbf getting my train of thought back.... Basically I'm still a rather big n00b to eve, but from all this and the post's so far, it seems to me that gameplay mechanic is balanced fine. It's just balanced across a very large field and unless you salvage and ninja, your unlikely to see it all come togther, making it seem unfair in one way from one point, and unfair in another way from another. But whatever, I've only got 361 characters left, and whoes going to read all the crap above?
Mr Friendly	Posted - 2008.06.07 09:40:00 - [194] I used to get annoyed by salvagers. Now, I carry a salvager and tractor beam on my mission ship, salvage what's worthwhile and blow up the other wrecks. People have *****ed at me in local for doing so. Their tears are ambrosia
YzakJoule Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:06:00 - [195] Either way - I have little or nothing to complain about anymore, because I'm giving up mission running. This, Like 1 mish runner matters, when there are hundreds or possably thousands more out there, don't want us to salvage your wreks? BLOW THEM UP! I am seriously gettin PO'd with mish runners complaining, work for another agent, I have friends in game who run missions, they dont work in Dodix or Motsu, and they DONT get salvaged. And as for mishrunning being the no1 profession in eve? WTF??? Just because you want to spend all day blowing up stuff that dosent realy put up much of a fight, and then say look at my CNR, I can now run mish even faster! have i missed the part were mish running is the most needed role in eve? you give us all (worthless) items and ammo from your loot, I thought building stuff was the mst needed role in eve, but hey, who am I to judge. PS: I use my Main Char to Ninja Salvage, and in a player corp that ninja salvages, we dont hide in NPC corps, and I dont hide behind Alts.
AC Resonance Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:20:00 - [196] o/\o hi-five fellow ninja.
Natasha Vibeke	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:21:00 - [197] In short: Wrecks flying in space. Somebody warp to area and started cleaning... Person who do blow up ships in area crying... CONCORD dont response.. from other side.. You throwing craps to trash can.. Somebody arrived to get them from Your trash can.. hm..starting shooting to trashman..? Police respond..You dont wanna give Your trash for dump.. Strange
Sanzorz EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:31:00 - [198] The thieves that drop into my mission space to salvage ain't a problem for me, as I rarely tend to salvage. What really bothers me is that they become red blinking targets when they salvage my wrecks and I in fear become annoyed in case my drones go haywire and might go for the thief. What's with the blinky anyway? :S
YzakJoule Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:35:00 - [199] Sanzorz, that means they took your loot (which is owned by you) so if you want you can shoot them back. Back at ya AC o/\o
Vanessa Vasquez planet eyeQ	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:03:00 - [200] I only see a logical flaw to this. Why is taking some ones can flagged as theft, and salvaging not? That's not logical and i don't see a reason for this difference. When you jettison something, you just throw it out. It's not yours anymore. And how can the wreckage of ship that you have destroyed seen as your property? I understand that CCP wants to maintain an option for some fighting without low sec or wardec. Can flipping is the header. But why that difference in salvage? It would be logical that NPC loot and salvage is free for all, or both not. PS: I couldn't care less btw, this is just my 2 ISK
Zey Nadar Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:10:00 - [201] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 07/06/2008 12:12:10 Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez When you jettison something, you just throw it out. It's not yours anymore. You mean when I leave my car at the car park it wouldnt be mine anymore? :) ontopic: 1.) Ive never had a problem with ninjasalvagers, and I salvage mostly my own missions when I feel like it. 2.) nothing wrong conceptually in salvaging other peoples wrecks, consider it like scavengers who are there to profit from the scraps left at the battlefield. 3.) This isnt an issue for me
Vanessa Vasquez planet eyeQ	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:21:00 - [202] Edited by: Vanessa Vasquez on 07/06/2008 12:29:08 Originally by: Zey Nadar Edited by: Zey Nadar on 07/06/2008 12:12:10 Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez When you jettison something, you just throw it out. It's not yours anymore. You mean when I leave my car at the car park it wouldnt be mine anymore? :) erm, no. I mean if you would throw you're drugs out of your plane while flying 10.000 feet above a moon or planet. If you think space is your private parking lot, you are sadly mistaken edit While thinking about your example, i realized another illegitimate fact. As jettison means "to throw something overboard" your car example doesn't fit here. But where it does fit is, when you eject out of your ship. And actually as a matter of fact, if you eject, the ship is not yours anymore.
Universal Architect	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:28:00 - [203] Adapt, Survive, Prosper. The Ninja salvagers have managed to do it - they've found a niche, they've adapted their MO to fit that niche, they're surviving & prospering - now it's your turn. So they're stealing your salvage? - hoover up as you go - get a corpmate to hoover up as you go - leave them to it & accept that you're not the only person in-system making ISK - do something about it other than complain about 'unfair' game mechanics. Seems to me that all that has happened here is you have failed to use a bit of imagination & bandwidth to deal with a situation & instead gotten yourself all wound-up about it & resorted to yet another of those 'The problem with Eve' posts on the forums.
Melanie Griffin	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:33:00 - [204] Originally by: Universal Architect Adapt, Survive, Prosper. The Ninja salvagers have managed to do it - they've found a niche, they've adapted their MO to fit that niche, they're surviving & prospering - now it's your turn. And there goes another troll. I hope desperately, that one day CCP will implement a flaw to your gameplay by leaving a "niche" for someone, and you start whining as well.
Mr Merenque	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:40:00 - [205] Originally by: Universal Architect Adapt, Survive, Prosper. The Ninja salvagers have managed to do it - they've found a niche, they've adapted their MO to fit that niche, they're surviving & prospering - now it's your turn. So they're stealing your salvage? - hoover up as you go - get a corpmate to hoover up as you go - leave them to it & accept that you're not the only person in-system making ISK - do something about it other than complain about 'unfair' game mechanics. Seems to me that all that has happened here is you have failed to use a bit of imagination & bandwidth to deal with a situation & instead gotten yourself all wound-up about it & resorted to yet another of those 'The problem with Eve' posts on the forums. Listen, dump***. Every single multiplayer game i've played so far was not 100% balanced. Starting from BF2 where the AA is so crappy that you're almost unable to get those overpowered jets down, and ending by Comand & Conquer Generals where little could be done against the scud storm superweapon (before the last patch). Just calling an imba gamemechanics a niche and advise people to just adapt is plainly stupid.
Universal Architect	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:47:00 - [206] Originally by: Melanie Griffin Originally by: Universal Architect Adapt, Survive, Prosper. The Ninja salvagers have managed to do it - they've found a niche, they've adapted their MO to fit that niche, they're surviving & prospering - now it's your turn. And there goes another troll. I hope desperately, that one day CCP will implement a flaw to your gameplay by leaving a "niche" for someone, and you start whining as well. hmmmm - allow me to put it back into it's original context for you: Quote: So they're stealing your salvage? - hoover up as you go - get a corpmate to hoover up as you go - leave them to it & accept that you're not the only person in-system making ISK - do something about it other than complain about 'unfair' game mechanics. Seems to me that all that has happened here is you have failed to use a bit of imagination & bandwidth to deal with a situation & instead gotten yourself all wound-up about it & resorted to yet another of those 'The problem with Eve' posts on the forums. Seems like you forgot to read past the second paragraph.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:50:00 - [207] Originally by: Mr Merenque Just calling an imba gamemechanics a niche and advise people to just adapt is plainly stupid. Good thing that it's not imbalanced then, and that it is working as intended, and that the devs have said so on numerous occasions. In other words, it is the reality of how it should work – advising people to accept that reality and adapt to it is not stupid. Quite the opposite: it is, in fact, the only intelligent advice to give.
Universal Architect	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:51:00 - [208] Originally by: Mr Merenque Originally by: Universal Architect Adapt, Survive, Prosper. The Ninja salvagers have managed to do it - they've found a niche, they've adapted their MO to fit that niche, they're surviving & prospering - now it's your turn. So they're stealing your salvage? - hoover up as you go - get a corpmate to hoover up as you go - leave them to it & accept that you're not the only person in-system making ISK - do something about it other than complain about 'unfair' game mechanics. Seems to me that all that has happened here is you have failed to use a bit of imagination & bandwidth to deal with a situation & instead gotten yourself all wound-up about it & resorted to yet another of those 'The problem with Eve' posts on the forums. Listen, dump***. Every single multiplayer game i've played so far was not 100% balanced. Starting from BF2 where the AA is so crappy that you're almost unable to get those overpowered jets down, and ending by Comand & Conquer Generals where little could be done against the scud storm superweapon (before the last patch). Just calling an imba gamemechanics a niche and advise people to just adapt is plainly stupid. Yeeeesss...... I'm not entirely sure what either BF2 or Command & Conquer have to do with Eve online - perhaps you could clarify for me?
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:42:00 - [209] Mission-running is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Salvage thievery is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mission-runing profession. If they remove salvage theft, they might as well remove mission-running, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) ---------------- [insert signature here]
Black Leather	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:51:00 - [210] Well first off. In this game, at this time, there is no such thing as salvage theft. There is salvaging, period. Secondly, there are a 1000 better places to make money salvaging than in peoples missions. Ninja salvaging is not a viable profession. It's just something people like to do to be annoying (god bless their evil little hearts). They'll get tired of it after awhile and move on to the next big thing. Apologies if this this has been stated already. Can't be bothered to read the entire thread.
Dravius Luxor Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.07 18:08:00 - [211] Originally by: Black Leather Well first off. In this game, at this time, there is no such thing as salvage theft. There is salvaging, period. Secondly, there are a 1000 better places to make money salvaging than in peoples missions. Ninja salvaging is not a viable profession. It's just something people like to do to be annoying (god bless their evil little hearts). They'll get tired of it after awhile and move on to the next big thing. Apologies if this this has been stated already. Can't be bothered to read the entire thread. This post sums it up nicely. Salvage theft is not a viable earner, and only appeals to those who hate mission runners and/or all other people. I tried it, and the tears outweighed the profits to the point where I just thought - why am I really doing this? If I have anything to add, it would be this: Ninja-salvaging is simply piracy for 'carebears'. The only people who get upset by it are the people who badly need to have all their stuff stolen. I wish I could trust someone enough to gang them so they could clear up my mess in Lustrevik.
Amastat Omegatech	Posted - 2008.06.07 18:58:00 - [212] Holy crap, did I just achieve the most epic troll in history? 8-pages??! ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu
Tortun Nahme Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:01:00 - [213] 8 pages? epic? I think not Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:13:00 - [214] Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 07/06/2008 19:13:44 Originally by: Amastat Holy crap, did I just achieve the most epic troll in history? 8-pages??! Nope, you got two more pages to go for threadknoght status :P
Zoe Scirocco	Posted - 2008.06.07 20:00:00 - [215] Edited by: Zoe Scirocco on 07/06/2008 20:05:38 OP, why don't you just go and play offline games if you can't handle the human interaction in MMOs? Some salvage "thiefs" are out there not even to try getting your loot but to provocate a nice pvp fight. Ironically, even when just emptying your wrecks, most mission runners don't even dare to fight back or to call help from their corp friends, even if they have all aggro rights to do so... Then again, there are offline games where you can just be left "alone". Check again the definition of sandbox "MMOs".
Rangkai	Posted - 2008.06.07 20:39:00 - [216] I wish people would come salvage my wrecks.. i dont bother to..
Myshella Drake Primos Evinco	Posted - 2008.06.07 22:51:00 - [217] Salvage theft is not a viable earner, and only appeals to those who hate mission runners and/or all other people. I tried it, and the tears outweighed the profits to the point where I just thought - why am I really doing this? I disagree to put it nicely, 'Salvage theft' cough is a viable earner. It appeals to me because its fun, interesting and unpredictable. You dont know what your going to find with each run or what might happen when you warp in. This is the appeal to a lot of others as well. Yes there are grievers in the profession and it cant be helped. But to say that we do it because we hate people is a load of ** and pretty insulting tbh. You can still make a decent profit and avoid any 'tears' if you conduct yourself in a decent manner. ------------------ All your salvage r belonging to us**
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.08 01:28:00 - [218] Originally by: Dravius Luxor I tried it, and the tears outweighed the profits to the point where I just thought - why am I really doing this? I don't understand your confusion. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.08 01:30:00 - [219] Hay look, the OP came back to pretend he wasn't serious and was just trolling all along! Dude, we know too well what a squealy stuck pig you are... your odor of whine cannot be disguised. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2008.06.08 02:08:00 - [220] If CCP makes it to where salvaging flags you, it's going to be worse than can flipping, as not only will the thief be able to aggress, they will be able to make off with actually valuable loot as well. Also, the majority of mission carebear will be much too scared to actually shoot at a thief, they will just continue to whine. However, if CCP does make salvage "thieving" flaggable, you are going to see a LOT more thieves hoping to get themselves a ship kill. Mark my words.
GB Man The Torchwood Institute	Posted - 2008.06.08 03:55:00 - [221] Welcome to Eve-Online. Above all else, the market will determine the course of action. If there is an abundance of a certain ore, the price goes down. If there is an abundance of mission runners, prices of modules/Salvage materials goes down and Salvagers goes up. Mission runners start complaining and move onto other professions and the market once again starts to balance itself out. CCP has stated many many times that Salvaging rights belong to no one. It's first come first serve. You've got rights to the loot itself, so move on and complain about real issues.
DogSlime Wilde Cards	Posted - 2008.06.08 06:13:00 - [222] I make most of my money running kill missions. If someone steals my loot, they get flagged. Salvage should be just that - free-for-all to anyone who can get to it. I hope CCP leaves the salvage issue like it is. Some people make salvaging their trade. It doesn't need flagging. No need to change the salvaging rules.
Devon Vorberg Eagle Security and Transport	Posted - 2008.06.08 12:36:00 - [223] Edited by: Devon Vorberg on 08/06/2008 12:37:41 Oh! Oh! I have an idea! ATTENTION POD PILOTS! Eagle Security and Transport is announcing a new service! Don't want your wrecks "stolen"? tired of salvage ninj... er... THEIVES?1!? LOOK NO FURTHER! The solution is at hand! All you have to do is EVEmail "Devon Vorberg" whenever you see him online, and let us know where you are running you high-level missions. For a slight fee, we will fly to your location, follow you around, and collect all of your salvage for you, no sweat! We'll even collect all that pesky loot for you if you'd like! We have limited ships for providing this service, so call now! Devon Vorberg CEO (and sole pilot), EGLST Pilot must agree to a collateral contract and sign over 50% of all salvage to EGLST. Additionally, pilot will ensure full security and protection for EGLST salvager. No refunds, no returns. Edited typos and formatting.
Vagablonde Ouruboros Trading	Posted - 2008.06.08 12:37:00 - [224] this thread is a wreck. salvages Competition: awarding internets to the most comical fictional salvage components of a bad thread. ________________ the way back home is always long, but if you're close to me i'm holding on.
Karentaki Edyta Enterprises Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.08 13:30:00 - [225] 13:21:41 Notify You successfully salvage from the Failed Thread. Contaminated Carebear Tears: 21 Illogic Circuits: 5 PHP Scraps: 7 Repetitive output array: 13 ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors!
Vagablonde Ouruboros Trading	Posted - 2008.06.08 13:56:00 - [226] Originally by: Karentaki 13:21:41 Notify You successfully salvage from the Failed Thread. Contaminated Carebear Tears: 21 Illogic Circuits: 5 PHP Scraps: 7 Repetitive output array: 13 ha! gives you all his internets ________________ the way back home is always long, but if you're close to me i'm holding on.
Dravius Luxor Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.08 14:20:00 - [227] Originally by: Myshella Drake I disagree to put it nicely, 'Salvage theft' cough is a viable earner. It appeals to me because its fun, interesting and unpredictable. You dont know what your going to find with each run or what might happen when you warp in. This is the appeal to a lot of others as well. Yes there are grievers in the profession and it cant be helped. But to say that we do it because we hate people is a load of **** and pretty insulting tbh. You can still make a decent profit and avoid any 'tears' if you conduct yourself in a decent manner. Well, I apologise for insulting you, but you're taking part in a profession that makes you despised and loathed by most people you encounter while doing it. The hate was too much for me - some people get really upset when you burst their highsec bubble and steal their shinies. It was in no way worth it, and just isn't very pleasant!
Zaknussem The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.06.08 14:30:00 - [228] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Mission-running is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Salvage thievery is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mission-runing profession. If they remove salvage theft, they might as well remove mission-running, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) Originally by: A slightly modified version of the above: Mining is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Can-flipping is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mining profession. If they remove can-flipping, they might as well remove mining, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.)
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.08 17:42:00 - [229] Originally by: Zaknussem Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Mission-running is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Salvage thievery is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mission-runing profession. If they remove salvage theft, they might as well remove mission-running, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) Originally by: A slightly modified version of the above: Mining is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Can-flipping is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mining profession. If they remove can-flipping, they might as well remove mining, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) Agreed, but at least miners are playing the game with the intent of creating something. They're less cynical than mission-runners, who have no illusions that they're doing anything other than milking a broken game mechanic for ISK. ---------------- [insert signature here]
GB Man The Torchwood Institute	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:07:00 - [230] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Zaknussem Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Mission-running is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Salvage thievery is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mission-runing profession. If they remove salvage theft, they might as well remove mission-running, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) Originally by: A slightly modified version of the above: Mining is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Can-flipping is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mining profession. If they remove can-flipping, they might as well remove mining, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) Agreed, but at least miners are playing the game with the intent of creating something. They're less cynical than mission-runners, who have no illusions that they're doing anything other than milking a broken game mechanic for ISK. Because we all know Macro-miners love to create wonderful and useful things
Mr Merenque	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:22:00 - [231] Edited by: Mr Merenque on 09/06/2008 12:24:33 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Mission-running is the most flawed profession in EVE. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's risk-free. Salvage thievery is (a) a fun profession in and of itself and (b) adds surprise, novelty, challenge, and risk to the otherwise flawed mission-runing profession. If they remove salvage theft, they might as well remove mission-running, because it serves no function. (Mindless, risk-free ISK spawning is not a function.) lmao Yeah, lets remove missions from eve for just about 4 weeks. Maybe then you'll understand that missioning is THE key function in eve next to 0.0 ratting. No offense, but i doubt you'll get it on your own, so i'll give you a hint. Who will buy your ore/salvage/datacores/T2 mods etc, when noone earned ISK through bountys? Who can buy anything without ISK?
Dotard Suddenly Samurai	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:54:00 - [232] --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:03:00 - [233] Originally by: Karentaki 13:21:41 Notify You successfully salvage from the Failed Thread. Contaminated Carebear Tears: 21 Illogic Circuits: 5 PHP Scraps: 7 Repetitive output array: 13 Brilliant. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Resamo	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:16:00 - [234] How can someone steel something that does not belong to you? CCP has stated over and over that salvage does not belong to anyone you have no more rights over it then the salvager does. So from his point of view if you try and salvage the wrecks then you are stealing his salavage and he has just as much right to say that as you do to say that about him/her. And as a person who runs missions to make isk i have never seen a single "salvage theif" and if i did i would not care as it is not as profitable as running missions.

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1. Salvager profession

2. Hi sec Mission Runner profession