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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Faife
Noctiscion
   |
Posted - 2008.06.13 15:02:00 -
[31]
you could at least give them a month to see if they can write themselves out of it
i used to dnd (i'm not a nerd i swear) and i liked to throw "impossible" things at players so that they'd get upset and only explain few weeks down the road how it happened. |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:04:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/06/2008 15:05:03
 Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
If the other Ritual Suiciders didn't do the same then they deserved to be bio-massed for stupidty.
You realize this is the Amarr we're talking about, right? They all deserve to be bio-massed for stupidity. |
Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Hardin
Long winded complaint about Cannon.
Do I really need to point out Khanid refused suicide, broke away and formed his own empire? Jamyl easily could have faked her suicide and simply was in hiding until the time was right or any number of things. You dont really expect the royal heirs to follow the rules and be obiedent to tradition when it means they and those that support them could lose out, do you? |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:06:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Faife
you could at least give them a month to see if they can write themselves out of it
Or, heck, another four years. Why not?  |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:07:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Hardin
Long winded complaint about Cannon.
Do I really need to point out Khanid refused suicide, broke away and formed his own empire? Jamyl easily could have faked her suicide and simply was in hiding until the time was right or any number of things. You dont really expect the royal heirs to follow the rules and be obiedent to tradition when it means they and those that support them could lose out, do you?
That's the point though - Khanid didn't end up as the Emperor. |
Hardin
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 15:10:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Winterblink
This just in: Jamyl (pictured second from left) celebrating with the rest of her friends and advisors.
When asked about her abrupt return, she replied with a sullen, "braaaaiiins."
You made me spit Quafe all over my keyboard...
Back on topic:
I believe CCP are simply 'correcting' their storyline. After all they never expected their nominated team to lose the original succession tournament - and never for a second considered that a pacifist like Doriam would win.
If Jamyl had won would she have been executed 6 months into the job? I sincerely doubt it!
It is quite clear to older 'Amarr' RPers, that there has been a 'cadre' of Jamyl fans within CCP since the start, who have been actively pushing for her return (despite the complications that brings) instead of adapting the storyline (i.e. bothering to name a new Sarum heir and developing their personality) after the Imperial Succession event.
CCP are now back on track with their original 'storyline' and god forbid that we object at the apparently nonsensical way that it has been implemented 
Of course the novel may explain all this - maybe that's the purpose I just feel slight used that us RPers will end up having to buy a book to explain WTF is happening in a game which I already pay ú38 a month for!
I shall of course seek out Ginger/Tony Gonzales next week and waterboard them until I get an explanation j/k
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:14:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Hardin
Long winded complaint about Cannon.
Do I really need to point out Khanid refused suicide, broke away and formed his own empire? Jamyl easily could have faked her suicide and simply was in hiding until the time was right or any number of things. You dont really expect the royal heirs to follow the rules and be obiedent to tradition when it means they and those that support them could lose out, do you?
That's the point though - Khanid didn't end up as the Emperor.
Thats a matter of interpertation. The guy refuses suicide, takes a titan for his own, goes into his vast tracks of land and declares himself the immortal king of the region and has been doing so for about what, 200 years now? Besides, King, Emperior, same diffrence. Both are the leaders of their people but my point is that Khanid didnt off himself like tradition said he was supposed to so its logical to assume other royal heirs would do the same thing and either refuse or fake their deaths. Given EvE's enviroment, can you really say you are surprised that this happened?
--------------------------------
To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:18:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Abrazzar
I'm curious how the Theology Council will respond...
*readies a stake and piles some wood* |
Hardin
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:27:00 -
[39]
A quote from PIE forums:
Quote:
It seems that everything else in EVE is dynamic except CCPs storylines.
(That were written down in a bar, on a napkin, ten years ago.)
Personally I don't care if Jamyl is named "Most Excellent Galactic Supremo" , 'Wench-in-charge" or even "Victor" - provided CCP explain it properly! 
|
Lyzra
Peregrine Guidance Systems Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:27:00 -
[40]
I think the criticism for the whome current line run by CCP with these things have been clear and backed pretty well.
There is yet another aspect that has been also touched and it is the side of RP community. In this case really those that have been trying to read through prime fiction to realize what kind of beings amarrians are and attempting, more or less to play the part.
This brings up my situation, im somewhat aged char and been allways supporter of ultra traditionalist House Ardishapur, whom also are known for they religious zeal and rigid old ways.
Now im presented with news that not only does the head of the House Ardishapur that reigns the world I was born from accepts an heretical heir. A heir that lost to win God's favour to rise on the throne, one that did either clone themselfs and tainted herself. Or one that simply chose a cowards way and staged her death and chose to digrace amarrian traditions.
On a RP point of view this is an immense outrage, if prime fiction would hold true. Not that CCP seems to care. House Ardishapurs fiefdoms or House itself would rise against an heir that spits and ****es on the honor and pride of the House itself. How do they expect the worlds under control of Houses, especially those that ARE traditionalists are just going to shrugh they shoulders and accept this sillyness. IF I were a noble in House Ardishapur. I would challenge the heir to a duel to the death for breach of traditions and supporting a heretic to the throne.
Yet, it seems suprisingly even NPC's that are supposed to follow traditions and enforce law in the Empire just sit still, thumbs up they asses and cheer for the new Empress.
On a players view it seems CCP is altering the whole amarrian Empire to a direction not supported by prime fiction and on my part im really wondering if I should simply retire from the game for good and claim my charachter went into excile to stick in following the traditions and proper laws that seem to been thrown into wind. |
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:34:00 -
[41]
*nods to Lyzra*
What is also strange is that with the upcoming novel and
the declared attempt to draw more on target groups,
not yet interested in online games specifically but
interested in the general sci-fi itself,
a storyline develops that breaks with
the lore in favour of sensationalism.
Oh no wait.. actually that could make sense.. |
Wild Rho
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:36:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 13/06/2008 15:36:17
Originally by: Hardin
I believe CCP are simply 'correcting' their storyline. After all they never expected their nominated team to lose the original succession tournament - and never for a second considered that a pacifist like Doriam would win.
If Jamyl had won would she have been executed 6 months into the job? I sincerely doubt it!
It is quite clear to older 'Amarr' RPers, that there has been a 'cadre' of Jamyl fans within CCP since the start, who have been actively pushing for her return (despite the complications that brings) instead of adapting the storyline (i.e. bothering to name a new Sarum heir and developing their personality) after the Imperial Succession event.
CCP are now back on track with their original 'storyline' and god forbid that we object at the apparently nonsensical way that it has been implemented
Of course the novel may explain all this - maybe that's the purpose I just feel slight used that us RPers will end up having to buy a book to explain WTF is happening in a game which I already pay ú38 a month for!
I shall of course seek out Ginger/Tony Gonzales next week and waterboard them until I get an explanation j/k
This was one of the main things that put me off having a bit of role play (after a couple of brief attempts). What's the point in bothering to get involved in a story everything has already been predetermined regardless of what the players do?
Not only that but those involved don't seem either willing or able to have a dynamic element to the overall story. The whole thing may as well be a weekly comic strip or book for all the genuine interaction involved. |
Karazack
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:42:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Karazack on 13/06/2008 15:43:55
1. Reason she "came back from the dead" is simple:
She cheated and used cloning technology, sure traditions and scripture are important to the amarr nobility - as long as they get them where and what they want of course ;)
If it was her original body that committed ritual suicide back then or if it was already a clone made for that deceptive purpose, who knows, but it is secondary really.
2. The reason the other heirs back her up now is harder to explain I admit.
Probably she has some big time under the hand blackmailing leverage on them, would not surprise me. It is a well know fact the amarr nobility is a bunch of corrupt decadent bigots and every one of the heirs has most likely more then just one proverbial corpse hidden in their proverbial basement.
Only suiting that the biggest bigot of them all shall now become Empress...
Amarr victor indeed 
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Eldon Rosen
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:51:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Eldon Rosen on 13/06/2008 15:54:31
Having lost the 'Imperial Succession' tournament.. ..Jamyl was involved in an eleborate plot to save the Amarr Empire from the peace loving pacifist Dorian.
Having been so profoundly beaten by the Jovians, and sensing a Minmatar uprising on the horizon, the succession had been fixed by a group of conspiritors to allow the only heir that could prove the saviour of Amarr to win.
However something went wrong, Dorian was the victor.. ..the group of conspirators knew Dorian was an inadequate Emperor and would only drive the empire to ruin. So they searched the empire and found a fervent follower who looked suitably like Jamyl, they then sent Jamyl into hiding to return when the time was right, and sent the body double to her death.
Use your imagination it's not too difficult
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:59:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Clones
Amarr nobility is not allowed to use clone technology. God's Flesh may not be copied. It's heresy.
They aren't allowed to come back from the dead either, but this one did. It's a no-brainer, she cheated by using a clone.
------------------------------------------------
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Hardin
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:04:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Hardin on 13/06/2008 16:06:07
Originally by: Eldon Rosen
Use your imagination it's not too difficult
Of course we can come up with a thousand reasons to justify Jamyl's return - it would just be nice to know what they are BEFORE she is appointed Empress
I know that the Empire likes its secrets but at present there has been absolutely zero justification
Even if the Amarr media/public werent questioning this 'miracle' then I would certainly expect the Gallente/Minmatar/Caldari media to be asking some hard questions about why a 'heretic' seems to be a shoe in to the biggest job in the galaxy!
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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:05:00 -
[47]
Just because there's no full explanation yet doesn't mean there won't be. I'm pretty confident the novel will offer further insights into all of this.
Really though, this is a bit surprising Hardin. You should know as well as anyone that Amarrian society is not exclusively filled with "faithful believers" nor is lacking precedent for drastic alterations in fundamental tenets of the faith.
Quote:
My word lies within all
All it requires is the breath of faith
To ignite the fire
So the lost can find their way
So the fallen can rise
To take their place as my chosen
For you are all my creation
And are all equal in my kingdom
- Apocryphon, Lost Passages.
The Sahtogas system description demonstrates pretty clearly how inconvenient tenets of the faith will be discarded. The Scriptures and traditions of the faith are only recognised as authoritative so long as those with the power to maintain or discard them chose to do the former. Otherwise they simply re-write the rules. They are His representative in the mortal realms after all, they have the divine mandate to change things as He, through them, sees fit.
The Khumaak / Outcast Chronicles paint a picture of Amarrian society where religion and tradition sometimes railroads people down paths they do not actually want to travel. Idonis Ardishapur regrets what he has to do. What he has to do.
Quote:
ôAnnihilate the Starkmanir tribe.ö Idonis paused for a moment and caught his breath, mentally crushing something deep within himself. ôInform the orbital fleet. Have our people out of the cities and in orbit within a rotation. This planet will burn as a beacon, to illuminate the galaxy with the strength of House Ardishapur, and the Divinity of our purpose. None shall be spared.ö
Idonis looked his friend in the eye as he spoke, seeing the regret there. He knew his own eyes showed the same. Regret about the life they were to leave, regret about what they had to become, but most of all, regret about what they were about to do. He allowed himself one more memory of his little hiding place, the long supple limbs of his Starkmanir lover, and the dreams he had harbored for the Minmatars. Then he let it go. Royal Heirs could not afford the luxury of dream.
He saves (what we once thought) was the rest of the Starkmanir. That is surely "heresy" too. You have right there, your precedents for Emperors acting according to THEIR will, not tradition. It's up for debate, in-character, whether or not Idonis and Sarum represent the will of God.
And Karsoth, he has never struck me as anything more than a political power-player, his talk of the faith little more than a tool to assert and maintain authority. If he were the staunch traditionalist and Guardian of the thron as he claimed to be, then why has he disappeared? Why?
Because he knows all too well how Amarrian society works. He knows how easily fundamental traditions can be swept aside in the name of power when it is the Divine Emperor doing to the sweeping. He knows what that would mean for him.
Like I said, I'm surprised Hardin. I would have thought you realised that the Amarrian religion is as much a malleable political tool as much as it was a literal faith.
Or maybe I'm wrong about all that, you tell me!
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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:06:00 -
[48]
This is absolutely crazy. Apparently someone hasn't been following their own storyline or thinking about their own constructed history.
My take - its necessary for the book.
Wrong reason to do this! Sorry Tony.
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:09:00 -
[49]
Seriously, you Amarr roleplayers are the worst roleplayers I've ever encountered online. Why do you roleplay such incredibly simple, one-dimensional, low-IQ characters? The Amarr are ritualistic, yes, but ritual serves many purposes. The Roman Catholic church has used ritual to legitimize power for centuries. Do you really think all the Popes back in the middle ages followed the letter and spirit of the Bible? There may be some stupid "true believers" in the Empire (like the characters you're role playing) but 99% of people have at least partial understanding that rituals exist to provide legitimacy and a sense of stability in a rapidly-changing universe.
Jamyl could have just came out and said "Listen. The Minmatar were about to *****your asses and I'm the only one who could fight them. Make me Dictator-in-Chief or I'm quitting, moving to Khanid Prime, and leaving you all to the Elders." By allowing the other heirs to go through the ritual, it makes everything much more comfortable for the citizens and mid-level leaders of the Empire. |
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Eldon Rosen
Edited by: Eldon Rosen on 13/06/2008 15:54:31
Having lost the 'Imperial Succession' tournament.. ..Jamyl was involved in an eleborate plot to save the Amarr Empire from the peace loving pacifist Dorian. [...]
While I really appreciate your suggestion for a rationalization,
the point of this thread is not,
that it is impossible to explain this development,
but that any explanation for this development,
we can currently imagine contradicts the canon.
The thing that seems to be difficult to grasp,
judging from the reactions is that Amarr is not a modern state.
In a certain sense the selfperception of the empire,
is that it forms what Thomas Aquinas called "civtate dei",
the worldly community of the faithfull that foreshadows the realm to come,
with the main difference that for Amarr the realm to come,
lies not in the beyond, but in the very reality,
the universe is theirs to claim by gods will and order.
The Amarr Empire is as much a metaphysical one as a worldy one.
If we looks at Amarr we need to take off the glasses of rationalism
through which we look at our disenchanted reality,
and try to imagine a world where every event has not only a rational but also metaphysical context. |
Bartholomeus Crane
Estrale Frontiers
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:13:00 -
[51]
It's a very curious thing this Jamyl thing. I'm from the Federation, the most barren RP faction in EVE (Yay democracy just about covers it, and my Intaki freedom struggle has been neglected the moment they first mentioned it), and even I can see that this just doesn't work at all.
However, I'm quite sure that the storylines about the Amarr Emperor haven't finished yet (he said enviously), and that there is still some fiction to be published. But I agree with one thing, no god fearing Amarr would ever accept a cloned Emperor (Empress) without some sort of resistance. Let's just hope CCP know what they're doing. |
Jove X
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:14:00 -
[52]
Its easier to categorize role-players in an ad hominem attack than to deal with the truth or falsity of the arguments being present.
When you catch up on the issue being discussed - feel free to contribute. If your here simply to commit errors in logic, save it.
Role playing is part of Eve .. issues of consistence in Role player are valid issues. |
Lyzra
Peregrine Guidance Systems Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:20:00 -
[53]
I suppose it is pointless to wonder what is political reasons for Jamyl's reappearance and so forth.
There could be some funny aspects as Khanid Empires leader christening hismelf with a new name Xenu, sending Jamyl into Empires help with a new suprise fleet of flying saucers to bring.... faith to the Empire. Afterall we all known Khanid secretly coveted Jamyl and had procured DNA before her demise, this new truly named Xemyl is Khanids... err handpuppet to take over the Empire.
Regardless of this, curiosity and views of letsay history are contradicting this type of situations to ever happen. Secrets are fine, but even in the Empire the nobles would not gain support from lower nobles if they take part in acts that are defying the Empire, acts that weaken the faith of people.
Jamyl is clearly known to be one that God did not choose to ascend into Empire's throne. Everyone within the Empire knows this, how are the heirs even guaranteering support from they own house, less from surrounding holders. I could not see it coming at all. Jamyl is an example of what the Empire has allways tried to avoid. An Emperor whom isnt chosen by God, one whom has forsaken the Holy Scriptures and as a once perfect heir now soiled by her deeds so badly she can't be allowed any credibility.
Worse is that CCP did involve all traditionalist and loyalist Houses in the strange support behind Jamyl. If the common sense, faith and amarrian culture would prevail. The Jamyl construct will not only fall, but it will take all supporting heirs with her. That would cause loss of face of all loyalist and traditionalist Houses and weaken they status greatly in the eyes of citizens and possible next proper Emperor. |
Phaige
Reaver Construction Services
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
It was also pointed somewhere else the the Minmatar Elders also died during the backstory some time ago with no clone backup. Yet they suddenly appeared again.
However I do not follow the RP side of things, I just picked that up on the forums.
Seems Jamyl Sarum is not the only zombie in the game ...
If I recall correctly, only some of the Elders were killed. |
Yann Ephemere
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:27:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Yann Ephemere on 13/06/2008 16:28:38
Quote:
but that any explanation for this development,
we can currently imagine contradicts the canon.
Nope. The Amarr empire as a whole is very religious. The individuals in it vary. Read "Theodicy". In it one Amarrian is portrayed as near-fanatical in his faith, but comes to an earth-shattering conversion and rejects it entirely. Another is portrayed as cynical, seeing faith as only something to be used to manipulate others.
Oh, and the cynical one? His last name was Sarum.
But at the end of the day, we can only wait and see, so I'm going to back out of this thread until more is revealed.
Edit: Oh, and who says the Empire isn't going to be shaken to its very foundation? In case you hadn't noticed, that's precisely what's happening to the other Empires... |
Hardin
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kai Zion
Just because there's no full explanation yet doesn't mean there won't be. I'm pretty confident the novel will offer further insights into all of this.
I am sure you are right. I am not afterall saying there is no explanation that CCP can come up with to justify this.
What I am 'whinging' about is
a) Why should we have to buy a novel to get this explanation?
b) The storyline, as progressed through game news, is at present all we as pod pilots have to go on. The storyline as presented so far does not make any sense in RP terms.
I believe roleplay should be as 'realistic' as possible - it's why I am in the CVA after all. In reality a 'story' such as this would be accompanied by all kinds of speculations and discussion. Yet here we have virtually nothing.
This is drama for drama sake - with no apparent consideration given to how a story like this would play out realistically. Take a sudden change of leadership in some far away country. The media may have no clue what prompted it - but there would be speculation and discussion. People in the know would be contacted and asked for an opinion. In amongst the pure speculation would be the occasional bit of truth (a bit like CAOD actually ) - but here we just seem to have been presented with a fait accompli with none of the accompanying explanation/speculation. And I reiterate if the Amarr media had been gagged then its certain that the Gallente/Caldari/Minmatar media would be voicing their opinions.
As it stands it kinda feels like: "Here is Jamyl Sarum - she is your new Empress - we don't care if it apparently contradicts the prime fiction we have produced up to this point - if you want the proper explanation go read our book."
|
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:31:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Seriously, you Amarr roleplayers are the worst roleplayers I've ever encountered online.
If you think that the current Jamyl storyline is anything other than a cheap, poorly thought out way to get CCP's story back on line after dynamic in-game events took their prescripted concept off-track, then we'll be happy to take this opinion for what it's worth
Not only is it bad writing, it's just bad execution: roleplay should have meaning and affect the story of the game IN GAME...that's impossible to do if CCP is going to reign everything back with their own preconcieved plot with a couple of poorly thought-out keystrokes. |
Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:32:00 -
[58]
> The flesh of the divine cannot be cloned, so Jamyl should not be Empress.
> The president of the Federation may serve only a single term so Foiritan should not be president.
> The CEP has a firm and established system based on tradition and meritocracy, so Tibus Heth should not be the dictator of the State.
The Republic is headless so escapes criticism for now.
Basically CCP has thrown out the established "facts" of their IP and provided no explanation. Perhaps the book will explain all, but the fact is that the whatever allowed these people to come to, or remain in, power would have to public knowledge to prevent public outrage.
It could be worse you know, there are several factions who haven't been given any usable backstory, good or bad, in years.
On a lighter note may I be the first to say:
LOL EMPRESS! |
Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Basically CCP has thrown out the established "facts" of their IP and provided no explanation. Perhaps the book will explain all, but the fact is that the whatever allowed these people to come to, or remain in, power would have to public knowledge to prevent public outrage.
Yes, perhaps, but to get to the book we are having to be lead down a pretty hard to believe garden path, and having to believe some pretty inconsistent turn of events!
To get to the book, we are having to believe the impossible! |
Kaylana Syi
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Unexpected twists and turns are indeed good. But they need to be believable, and right now this is anything but.
It's also not entirely unexpected. As I mentioned earlier, there have been rumours about the return of Jamyl going back to even before she "died".
It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility. You can't adjust yourself to an Amarr being ruled by infallible people because that would lay the farce at the hands of amarr and you'd would not be in control of the god head.
You've played the game 5 years banging on how much Amarr is divne and you don't want to live news feed to newsfeed trying to see your God's justice play out. Its just easier for you to say, "Amarr Victor," in transmissions and write up a bunch of text.
Now you have to get out there in space and prove your worth. You have to look to newsfeeds and story items to help justify your IC faith. Sucks to be you having to now act like everyone else in EVE.
Team Minmatar
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