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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:44:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Kai Zion on 13/06/2008 16:44:56
You're certainly right, Hardin. The silence on the issue is conspicuous.
As for having to buy the book to understand it all, I can't think of a good reason why other than that it's good business. 
If we assume the book is going to have all the answers, however, then presumably too once the book is released, the pertinent information in it will become widely available to the players. If not through further articles / chronicles, then simply by word of mouth. I think it's questionable to claim that you will be forced to buy the book to understand what's going on. It will flesh it out further, most likely, but I think the fundamental answers will be provided "free of charge", so to speak.
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:45:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 16:45:47
 Originally by: Yann Ephemere
Nope. The Amarr empire as a whole is very religious. The individuals in it vary.
You argue from an individualistic point of view,
that is not applicable here,
since a culture is defined by more than
the sum of the individuals constituting it at a given time.
During the struggle that lead towards the unification of Japan,
the person of the Emperor was never touched.
Surely he was more or less taken hostage by
different noble houses over the time,
to serve as instrument for the legalization of their claims to power,
but he was never touched.
The idea of harming the semi-deific emperor was so such an cultural anathema,
that even the most ruthless and opportunistic feudal princes,
did shy away from it in fear of the public reaction and probably, internalized religious reflex.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:49:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility.
...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules. |
Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:57:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Garreck
...so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture...
There's canon that says otherwise, too, Mr Garreck!
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Kaylana Syi
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility.
...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules.
That can happen when instead of your God showing up to your tea party the Elders show up in capital fleets and inflict retribution for the crimes your people committed against the Minmatar people.
Fear begets fear. All I see are fearful Amarr wanting to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to show the power of Amarr get in space and shoot some ex-slaves? Don't wait for a train that is never going to come.
Team Minmatar
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Hardin
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility.
...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules.
Mmmmm... Gallente prostitutes...
/emote takes a shower and seeks out his local inquisitor
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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.06.13 17:04:00 -
[67]
Bah, brothels and prostitutes charge money. More selective interpretations from CVA!
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 17:11:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Garreck on 13/06/2008 17:20:13
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
That can happen when instead of your God showing up to your tea party the Elders show up in capital fleets and inflict retribution for the crimes your people committed against the Minmatar people.
Fear begets fear. All I see are fearful Amarr wanting to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to show the power of Amarr get in space and shoot some ex-slaves? Don't wait for a train that is never going to come.
So what deeply rooted cultural anchor went out the window when the Jove smoked an entire Amarr armada?
None, that I can recall.
If there was a previous precident for Amarrians just throwing so much tradition right out the window in such a short period of time, I don't think there would be such complaints. This isn't about the result: we can roleplay the result and that's fine. It'll be exciting.
It's about how poor the introduction of this new plot is. In a matter of days we have Jamyl blow back into the picture and be endorsed as the new emperor by the heirs with almost no mention what-so-ever of anybody in a position of power wondering why she's alive in the first place and why she should be even considered for empress at all. Nope...we just skip right to "yay, our savior! take the throne!"
Seems a bit...I dunno...like a middleschooler's fanfiction.
I think a military uprising woulda been cool. Admirals x, y, and z from various families declare support for Jamyl because they were there when Jamyl saved their bacon, theology council says "you're out of your mind," Admirals pull support of their fleets (in this time of Amarrian crisis no less) until the Council acquiesces.
This gets drawn out for a couple of weeks, with shocking Amarrian defeat after Amarrian defeat until the Council realizes a changed Empire is better than a crushed Empire...
blah blah blah.
That's just one possibility. Just seems cheap the way it has actually played out so far.
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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 17:13:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility.
...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules.
The last guy was Khanid II -and as I've pointed out in this thread this storyline is arbitrary, and shows that someone has not been following EVE history, or considered this carefully.
This storyline seems only suited for one purpose - to lead us to the book. Thats the wrong reason to do this (Sorry Tony)
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.06.13 17:38:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 17:43:28
Originally by: Garreck
[...]
So what deeply rooted cultural anchor went out the window when the Jove smoked an entire Amarr armada?
None, that I can recall.
[...]
Nope...we just skip right to "yay, our savior! take the throne!"
[...]
Seems a bit...I dunno...like a middleschooler's fanfiction.
[...]
I think a military uprising woulda been cool.
*chuckles* I did not want to be that harsh with words *grins*
I really loved the whole downtime storyline,
till a certain point.
First I sat there and thought,
are they really doing this,
turning the whole universe upside down,
how cool and novel would that be!?
Unfortunately as the story developed and
escalated into a firework of titan taskgroups out of nowhere, lead by the mythic elders,
my awe and hopes faded away in anticipation of the anticlimatic return to normal,
that had to follow.
When Jamyl stepped on the stage,I was so utterly disappointed
with the cheap resolution of an otherwise mindshattering great storyline.
There was to much firework for any substance to remain in the end.
How epic would have been an Amarr Empire shattered and shaken,
by the strikes of the elders that vanished as mysteriously as they came,
fighting for its survival against the Minmatar on the outside and
slave insurgencies on the inside ?
I also agree that the current development should result
in a civil war or at least an attempted uprising by the traditionalist and religious elites.
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diabolic clone
Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.06.13 18:05:00 -
[71]
I for one, embrace our new zombie overlord. 
Cloning isn't exactly unheard of for the amarr
http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/26-02-07.asp
Just taboo. But who knows maybe she isn't a clone.
Atleast the reclaiming is in full swing.. hopefully my wallet balance will swing up a bit so I can participate. Although a few lousy inter stellar kredits won't stop me from joining in if we take over those gallante brothels. |
Lyzra
Peregrine Guidance Systems Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 18:35:00 -
[72]
I slip a little from the topic and adress so called amarrian rp, as its seems to be understood by outsiders.
As an amarrian roleplayer, I do not claim oocly that amarrian culture is superior. It is just A culture.
Those that seem to be critical of amarrian roleplaying in some aspects seem to have problems understanding what roleplaying is and what it involves when amarrian culture or background comes into play.
Amarrians are by nature as flawed as ANY other culture, but the culture itself as embracing traditions, faith and loyality for the Empire so strongly brings forth some aspects of roleplaying we cannot really deny.
Those that do not show themselfs strong in faith are kind of anomalies, priests or others would snitch them for Interal Order. So any seriously played amarrians would be adamant and very well aware of his religious views, whatever they are. Clueless they aint on that aspect, youve been seeing religion most of your life VERY close at hand and any questions you had youve spoken through with priesthood.
Second, amarrians DO believe in they own Empire. On they point of view it is really a continuity of several thousands years of prosperity and they understand where its based upon. Unity in faith, loyality and culture. Not that ALL agree with one another, but this they know.
Final part is about the fact amarrian society in a way is theocracy, ruled by the priesthood and in the end Emperor whom is the religious leader aswell. Appearances are important in amarrian society, afterall its a caste culture. If higher caste is caught in corruption and bull**** lower classes are associated its not... seen fitting for they status. This is the major point where the current news clash with the amarrian prime fiction and roleplay. As rising in amarrian status is work for generations even perceived problems can block your path. You need to hold reputation and so forth, no matter what situation you land in. Yet, the whole Jamyl situation does look as if all of a sudden Houses are doing things that would ruin they credibility.
The way Jamyl's apperance is brought on the stage is as how you might do it in Gallente Federation if following prime fiction. There is allmost no signs of it happening in Amarr. Except mention of heirs and laadidaa of not using they own rights.
Amarrians by prime fiction are xenophobic and deeply religious, its suprising as some people see it 'wrong' way to roleplay them. |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.06.13 18:38:00 -
[73]
I was under the impression Jamyl Sarum feigned her own death this whole time, I think the majority that cares did get that impression too, you were just fooled by the apparent media stunt basking in the lights of your self-importance being invited to the show.  |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 18:42:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/06/2008 18:45:13
Another question surrounds Jamyl's racism.
IIRC she only allowed Amarrian wingmen to fly for her during the Championships. As such, she clearly believes in the supremacy of the Amarr race. It seems that her views on inter-racial harmony are akin to Josef Goebels'.
And yet, who here expects her to kick non-Amarrians out of the 24th Crusade if she takes power? From a game balance point of view, it's not very likely is it?
So the question must be - what changed her mind? |
White Ronin
Screenout
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Posted - 2008.06.13 18:44:00 -
[75]
CCP, please dont screw up the rogue drone storyline and rp the way you have with the amarr players.
Thanks. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 18:47:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Now you have to get out there in space and prove your worth. You have to look to newsfeeds and story items to help justify your IC faith. Sucks to be you having to now act like everyone else in EVE.
I've been out in space proving my worth since before I joined PIE, thank you very much. |
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CCP RyanD
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:11:00 -
[77]
We decided some time ago that following the release of Empyrean Age (the expansion) we would give Empyrean Age (the novel) a little time to stand on its own. We're in a bit of chaotic time right now - the novel starts before the events of the downtime, and ends just after the downtime. So you've all seen some events from the novel en media res.
In a week or so the novel goes on sale in the UK, and these boards will be full of spoilers for people who can't get it immediately. The novel deals extensively with the questions asked in this thread; you'll be able to judge for yourselves if you enjoy reading the story or not.
Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. But we feel like there's more value in getting our go-forward story framework in place so that we can start working hand-in-hand with in-game player activities to advance the overall immersion of EVE than waiting in realtime just to satisfy a "realism" check.
There's a lot more going on with Sarum than just "she's a clone". The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers. We think that's a good storytelling foundation and I'm glad to see people care passionately about it.
RyanD
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Hardin
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:15:00 -
[78]
Well thank you for replying.
I will try and restrain CVA from bombing Sarum Prime for the moment then
ps. I am still gonna hunt down Ginger next week
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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:32:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Jove X on 13/06/2008 19:34:28
Originally by: CCP RyanD
Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. But we feel like there's more value in getting our go-forward story framework in place so that we can start working hand-in-hand with in-game player activities to advance the overall immersion of EVE than waiting in realtime just to satisfy a "realism" check.
There's a lot more going on with Sarum than just "she's a clone". The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers. We think that's a good storytelling foundation and I'm glad to see people care passionately about it.
RyanD
RyanD, that much is obvious - and of course the Novel is going to force certain events. But ..
What about the criticism that this whole storyline complete messes over the earlier Khanid storyline? This completely undermines why Khanid II is in exile - why there is even a Khanid Kingdom. It also messes with the whole process of selecting an Emperor / Empress since it has done away with any sort of trial or contention for the position. This means that all Amarr tradition is currently out the window (since if one man - Khanid was exiled for ignoring tradition - what happens when all the heirs do?)
Simply providing explanations for why Lady Sarum is Empress is not going to to fix problems of incongruity with the Khanid. Has Tony, and the novel storyline even considered how this legitimizes Khanid II's right to be reconsidered an heir?
The point here is not simply that Lady Sarum's story is not known. The point here is that even with trying to set up the Novel - this storyline seems to ignore others.
?
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Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:40:00 -
[80]
Originally by: CCP RyanD
[...] Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. [...]
I'm glad to see people care passionately about it.
Thank you very much for this statement,
the very least it might help to enforce a bit more suspension of belief on oneself an try to more look at the core story than the presentation,
at the very best it shows that we are not the only one who care 
Still I am looking forward to see the resolution of the issue concerning "that woman".  |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:48:00 -
[81]
Originally by: CCP RyanD
We decided some time ago that following the release of Empyrean Age (the expansion) we would give Empyrean Age (the novel) a little time to stand on its own. We're in a bit of chaotic time right now - the novel starts before the events of the downtime, and ends just after the downtime. So you've all seen some events from the novel en media res.
In a week or so the novel goes on sale in the UK, and these boards will be full of spoilers for people who can't get it immediately. The novel deals extensively with the questions asked in this thread; you'll be able to judge for yourselves if you enjoy reading the story or not.
Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. But we feel like there's more value in getting our go-forward story framework in place so that we can start working hand-in-hand with in-game player activities to advance the overall immersion of EVE than waiting in realtime just to satisfy a "realism" check.
There's a lot more going on with Sarum than just "she's a clone". The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers. We think that's a good storytelling foundation and I'm glad to see people care passionately about it.
RyanD
In other words, you want to force the RP players to buy a book from you, to be able to continue RPing with all the info?
At least it looks like that to me.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:52:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
In other words, you want to force the RP players to buy a book from you, to be able to continue RPing with all the info?
At least it looks like that to me.
I don't think its quit like that. I think its more ...
"In order to ensure the Novel is consistent with the Eve Universe, certain events had to take place".
Fine. But those certain events themselves are not consistent with the EVE universe; at least part of the History of EVE's universe.
<my bet> The novel is oblivious to the issue this causes the Khanid </my bet>
I sure hope I'm wrong.
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:09:00 -
[83]
To expand on another thread, I submit to you the following assertion:
1. Minmatar fleet defeats concord.
2. Jamyl Sarum defeats Minmatar fleet.
Conclusion: Jamyl Sarum can do approximately whatever she wants to, up to and including coming back from the dead. Seriously, who would want to mess with someone who took down a fleet more powerful than almighty concord?
_________________
[IMAGE REMOVED]
-- aka Cpt Bogus --
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:12:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Jove X on 13/06/2008 20:12:13
Originally by: Del Narveux
Conclusion: Jamyl Sarum can do approximately whatever she wants to, up to and including coming back from the dead. Seriously, who would want to mess with someone who took down a fleet more powerful than almighty concord?
I assume that is what the novel is going to iron out.
However, Khanid II as a potential contender for Emperor, also has a valid claim. Look at his accomplishments.
Also consider that with Empress Sarum, much Amarrian lore is being chucked out.
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Danae Melios
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:14:00 -
[85]
It is politics as usual in the Empire. By which I mean politics as it always has been. Those who cheat and win are the rulers, those who cheat and lose are the heretics.
After all, winners re-write the Scriptures, yeah?
Seriously, is this anything worse than what the Caldari have been handed with Tibus Heth suddenly going from common laborer to CEO of megacorporations and now ruler of all of Caldari forces?
I was just as aghast as you were, Hardin, when I saw this but I knew from the moment that it mentioned that Domain was being attacked by the Elder Fleet that the target was Sarum Prime and that Jamyl would be the new Emperor.
The Elders were supposed to be dead, but managed to knock CONCORD out and run all over the Mandate and Empire. And it was inevitable that in the face of this, that the new Emperor would be a militant Reclaimist from Sarum. Which set the stage for the return of a household name, whose reappearance is miraculous. Hasn't the Chamberlain been saying all along that God will give the Empire and Emperor when the time is right?
I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power. Perhaps pressure was put on the other Heirs or perhaps they just bowed to the political inevitability in an attempt to stave off civil war over the throne in the face of Minmatar aggression.
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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:19:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Danae Melios
I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power.
Are you suggesting the Enheduanni? |
Danae Melios
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Jove X
Originally by: Danae Melios
I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power.
Are you suggesting the Enheduanni?
I am suggesting a group that wants the Empires at war. One idea is that it is holdouts from the old war (like Admiral Noir) who seek to undermine CONCORD to let the fighting resume. That the Caldari fleets were ready to move when the Elder fleet took out CONCORD speaks of coordination or at least cooperation across multiple factions.
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CCP RyanD
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:55:00 -
[88]
Tony and the story team are nothing if not aware of all the various threads. They appear to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the backstory. I doubt that they are creating any content without considering how it fits into the tapestry of EVE.
That said, I also don't think that they feel that the established continuity is inflexible, nor do they necessarily accept that each and every "fact" in it has to be 100% reconciled with new content going forward. EVE's backstory is 5+ years old now and in that time a certain number of errors, inconsistencies, and bad ideas have inevitably crept into the support materials. Like the good gardeners they are, I expect the story team will prune where needed, weed when necessary, and replant if required for growth. Of course they'll probably contort their work more than might be strictly necessary to avoid excessive retcons, but that's because I think they care as much about trying to be consistent with what has gone before as it is possible for them to be.
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Wloire
Macabre Votum
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.06.13 21:06:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Danae Melios
Edited by: Danae Melios on 13/06/2008 20:17:19
The Elders were supposed to be dead, but managed to knock CONCORD out and run all over the Mandate and Empire.
Edit: and I know Jamyl is a she but I kind of feel that Amarrians probably don't have "Empress" as a title for head of state.
The elders were not dead. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that only the Thukker and Starkmanir tribe elders were killed (hence why the Thukkers are not part of the Republic.)The short story Theodicy mentions this. This means that of the current Elders only two might possibly be imposters. You also seem to act like new Elder's cannot come to be. Before the Minmatar had cloning technology and advanced life extending medecine they probably had Elders. When these elders died wouldent new ones be appointed?
[/derail]
Give the newcast time to work out the Jamyl storyline. She hasent become Empress, the council still has to approve. Only the heirs have refused to question her revival. Just give it time. |
Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2008.06.13 21:16:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 13/06/2008 21:26:38
I have to agree with the OP. It is true the caldari got the same treatment with Heth's fast track to power. However, it was understood Heth was being brought in just for FW. The amarr emperor storyline has been in limbo forever by comparison.
With regards to the Elders, the Novella said that the Elders for the Starkmanir, Nefantar and Thukker were killed. That means that the Elders for Sibiestor, Brutor, Krusual, and Vherokior were not killed. Of course the question is are these the same Elders from that era, or their sucessors?
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