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The Jamyl Sarum story line - what a mess up!

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Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Hardin on 13/06/2008 14:09:36 I am not usually a General Discussion whiner but does CCP really expect EVE roleplayers to swallow the Jamyl Sarum storyline? Here we have an NPC character who 'apparently' died 4 years ago as part of the Imperial Succession story arc suddenly rising from the dead... For those who don't know the heads of Amarrian Houses otherwise known as 'heirs' have to compete (in some form or another) to see who gets to be the new Emperor. Those heirs who do not survive have to commit suicide - this is all well documented in the prime fiction. Anyway four years ago Emperor Heideran died and we got a special 'Imperial Succession' tournament where each of the Heirs had teams representing them (sort of an early alliance tournament). Many among the RP community felt the whole idea of a letting pod pilots compete to decide the succession of the Amarrian Empire was 'heretical' but all the various Heirs signed up including Jamyl Sarum. Now this is where is gets quite murky - according to what I have been told over the years CCP had a 'nominated' team participating in the tournament - a team that they thought would sweep all aside. Unfortunately for their storyline that team failed! As a result the relatively peace loving Dorian won the tournament and CCP's storyline was left in tatters. Anyway - as was set down in prime fiction all the unsuccessful heirs - including warlike Jamyl Sarum committed ritual suicide at an event at which important figures in Amarrian pod pilot society were invited - including me. So I was there and I saw Jamyl commit 'suicide' in accordance with scripture. Anyway, fast forward to the present day. Last week we get presented with the reappearance of 'zombie' Jamyl risen from the dead and leading a 'miraculous' Amarrian fleet... When I and other Amarrian roleplayers get over this shock we wonder how on earth Jamyl could have returned from her death. How can this be justified in RP terms? Of course the people behind the storyline have a feckload of explaining to do. Was it all some kind of mystical dream sequence similar to JR rising from the dead in Dallas, had all the attendees at the Imperial Succession been brainwashed (including Pod pilots like myself) or was there some kind of mystical happenings going on here? Countless questions imposed themselves. We sat an waited for some kind of justification of how this Heir could have risen from the dead - and then also some clarification on her status - after all if she hadn't committed suicide for participating in the Imperial Succession tournament then she is basically a heretic and shouldn't be commanding an Executioner let alone an Amarrian battle fleet... So we waited for answers and then we get today's news. The other heirs (relations of the other heirs who had killed themselves competing for the Imperial Succession) who have spent the last four years since the execution of Doriam arguing about the succession have apparently annointed this 'apparent' HERETIC as the new Empress of Amarr. Weren't they **ed off that this woman who apparently cheated death when their own relatives topped themselves suddenly reappeared? No - instead they decided to deny themselves the opportunity of becoming Emperor and have apparently awarded it with no explanation to someone who they basically shouldn't even deign to ** on. Now maybe CCP have some great explanation in the sidelines but from the way the stories are coming out we appear to be being RAILROADED into accepting Jamyl the Empress with no real commonsensical reason/eplanation for wtf is going on! As someone who has spent five years now RPing as a 'loyal' Amarrian this story line is aggravating me and my colleagues gigantically at present. Personally I have nothing against Jamyl leading the Amarr Empire but please CCP respect RP and give us good reasons rather than presenting us with a 'fait accompli' that really makes no RP sense whatsoever... ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Hardin on 13/06/2008 14:07:10 Some comments: It's nice that the space opera has turned into a farce. -------- WTF!! The heirs are saving her skin? Were are the religiously fanatic and zealous empire???!!!! Have the heirs gone mad! ------- there is a new zombie faction you can find on the map . Zombie jamyl is eating our brains and wants to become the queen of the undead shivers tbh: they will have to come up with a VERY good story to make me ride along. or i will form the 'order of the rightful emperor' --------- okay this sucks ass big time! First they cannot agree who should be emperor or even do a succession trial and now they all suddenly agree! Its **** like this that makes me want to quit being a roleplayer!!! How i am supported to work with this!? ------------- Oh, thats nothing. In the next official communique from the Amarr Empress, she will demand CVA be branded outlaw for the heretical views of our Leader regarding his strict viewpoint that Jamyl should not be empress and should commit suicide. After downtime tomorrow all of our POS will have been vaporized by a 1000 dread fleet, all outposts will be taken over by the Amarr Navy, we will be locked out and any assets in those outposts now property of the empire, sentry guns installed at every gate and outpost in Providence, every current and former member of CVA branded with a permanent -10 that can not be improved resulting in us getting wtf pwned if we even think about setting foot in any Amarr space, and lastly a keylogger uploaded to our computers resulting in all of our bank accounts irl being drained to support the new CCP vampire game. I think that about sums it up. ------------- Whinage over ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:06:00 - [3] Boo Hoo. Team Minmatar
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Boo Hoo. Exactly ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/06/2008 14:15:49 I'm afraid that I have to disagree with Hardin. It was definitely Bobby Ewing who rose from the dead in Dallas. I can agree with other stuff he said though! As I've said elsewhere... I think that what annoys me here is that: * Last year Ginger went on the record stating that the delay in FW would not delay a new Emperor showing up. We now see that that was wrong. * After the Tetrimon arc was leaked CCP said that their policy was to abandon story arcs that were leaked. Fair enough. But longer term players may remember the rumours going around in 2004 that there would be a crisis in the Empire and that Jamyl would return to save the day and then be crowned. Rumours of Jamyl's survival have persisted since then. Now my memory's not totally clear on this, but wasn't one of the main people spreading that rumour also involved in the Tetrimon leak? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:13:00 - [6] It was also pointed somewhere else the the Minmatar Elders also died during the backstory some time ago with no clone backup. Yet they suddenly appeared again. However I do not follow the RP side of things, I just picked that up on the forums. Seems Jamyl Sarum is not the only zombie in the game ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Mortimer Duke	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:16:00 - [7] /popcorn
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:18:00 - [8] I can tell somebody read John Varley's "The Phantom of Kansas" (not that that's a bad thing!) //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:18:00 - [9] Clones ------------------------------------------------
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:19:00 - [10] Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 13/06/2008 14:21:14 why arn't khanid back in the amarr empire then? HMMMMM? EDIT - on second thought, maybe they just don't want to risk having to commit suicide if they lose, and have chose some puppet to take over. ---

Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Heirs aren't allowed to use clones. The flesh of the Emperor must be pure. It's in the chronicles. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Amarr nobility is not allowed to use clone technology. God's Flesh may not be copied. It's heresy. -------- Ideas for: Mining Vote
Arenis Xemdal Imperativa	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:24:00 - [13] Considering the Tetrimon arc was a big part of the Reclaiming and any subsequent House Sarum plot progression, you shouldn't be all that surprised. In less than 24 hours, with some simple news posts, CCP 'caught up' the dangling and unfinished stories from where they were, to where they needed them to be. Except for the Federation elections. Aaaaaaaaand the Jovian Body Parts. Oh yeah and..
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Attack, of?
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:29:00 - [15] I'm going to venture a guess that there might be more details to this in the Empyrean Age book. I'll be reserving final judgment on this until I've had a chance to read it.
Yann Ephemere	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:33:00 - [16] Edited by: Yann Ephemere on 13/06/2008 14:36:34 I agree with you that the Imperial Succession story arc -- and indeed, most of the other story arcs -- should not have been held in stasis for so long. Hopefully, however, now that things are moving they will continue to roll at a good pace. However, I disagree that Sarum's return is miraculous. It's not. Even if there is unequivocal proof that she died (anyone have her corpse?), she could easily be a clone. "But it's against Amarr scripture!" Um, yes. So that makes it impossible? You think the power-hungry Sarum, who've been trying to get the throne for over 150 years (see "Theodicy"), are going to let a little thing like religion get in their way? She'll come up with some fast-talking, to be sure, but at the end of the day she's clearly the one holding the reins (see the Heirs' announcement today). So maybe some of the Amarr get disgruntled about all this. Maybe they start thinking about a coup. Maybe the high priests start talking about replacing the Emperor's throne entirely, putting up an Archbishop in his place... Any way you look at it, we've got some interesting places to go from here.
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:34:00 - [17] 50M on this is a CCP fowl. Bet is on mr Winterblink? (And its a pretty good reason to buy that book. If it would be up for sale at my fav bookshop that is.)
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Heirs aren't allowed to use clones. The flesh of the Emperor must be pure. It's in the chronicles. So the farce that is the Amarrian God and the Royal Court is coming to an end. Deal with it. Let CCP take the story where they want.
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Winterblink I'm going to venture a guess that there might be more details to this in the Empyrean Age book. I'll be reserving final judgment on this until I've had a chance to read it. Indeed there might be... It better be damn good
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Heirs aren't allowed to use clones. The flesh of the Emperor must be pure. It's in the chronicles. So the farce that is the Amarrian God and the Royal Court is coming to an end. Deal with it. Let CCP take the story where they want. Yes I fancy some vampire on vampire action...

Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:39:00 - [21] This just in: Jamyl (pictured second from left) celebrating with the rest of her friends and advisors. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. When asked about her abrupt return, she replied with a sullen, "braaaaiiins."
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:42:00 - [22] so wait, a player won that tournament? who?They should speak up and try to become the new emperor. Join FW and such.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:44:00 - [23] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/06/2008 14:45:23 Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Heirs aren't allowed to use clones. The flesh of the Emperor must be pure. It's in the chronicles. So the farce that is the Amarrian God and the Royal Court is coming to an end. Deal with it. Let CCP take the story where they want. But why bother writing all of the old PF just to throw it out of the window? And who's to say that they won't just throw out the new PF when they decide that it's also inconvenient? Why should any of us bother incorporating any of CCP's backstory into our RP when they're going to re-write it when the mood takes them? The way things are, I may as well have been RPing a hobbit all of these years. It would have made as much sense after all of this ret-conning.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Winterblink This just in: Jamyl (pictured second from left) celebrating with the rest of her friends and advisors. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. When asked about her abrupt return, she replied with a sullen, "braaaaiiins." Is that Stavros on the right?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:46:00 - [25] also the new filter in the overview for zombies
Terror Rising Death Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:48:00 - [26] Surely raising from the dead and coming to save the day would be an easy concept thing for Amarrians to accept ... No?
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:48:00 - [27] Edited by: Winterblink on 13/06/2008 14:48:49 Originally by: Rodj Blake But why bother writing all of the old PF just to throw it out of the window? And what's to say that they won't just throw out the new PF when they decide that it's also inconvenient? Why should any of us bother incorporating any of CCP's backstory into our RP when they're going to re-write it when the mood takes them? The way things are, I may as well have been RPing a hobbit all of these years. It would have made as much sense after all of this ret-conning. There's a few schools of thought there really. I should preface this with "I'm not a roleplayer". :) But the way I see it, isn't a dynamic storyline that has twists and turns more interesting than one which always goes along in a direction that's expected? I'm not suggesting it should be completely random, I mean lets hope tomorrow's news doesn't have her head splitting open and small alien man inside tells us he's the one controlling the Empire now. But surely consistent predictability isn't a plus. Would be like if they started off the first episode of Battlestar Galactica with intro credits showing us exactly who all the cylons are (putting my vote in for Billy being the final one). Edit: Sheesh, now that you mention it that DOES look a lot like Stav. :D
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:53:00 - [28] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 14:54:11 I was rather shocked to see this emperatrix ex machina rise and vanquish the threat in the most obscure way... Then I was even more shocked by the fact, that she was not at once charged with Sacrilege, Heresy and High Treason. The amarr empire is displayed in lore as a culture deeply founded in traditions, that provide it with an unshakable foundation, but also limit nearly paralyze its development. Comparisons to the role of the emperor, that could be drawn from the real world are probably, the chinese or japanes emperor or the pharaos. In my eyes the crime of Jamyl, is from an amarr perspective an incommensurable one, like seeing someone emptying his bladder on the kaaba would be for a muslim. The only explanation I could think of for the strange reactions of the amarr empire, would be a total and utter state of shock, facilitated by both the elder fleet and Jamyls apperance.
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:54:00 - [29] Hell, if you knew that you were going to have to commit ritual suicide in front of people you wouldn't give a toss about the purtity of your flesh, you would have 30 Jump Clones dotted all over 0.0 as there is nothing to lose. If the other Ritual Suiciders didn't do the same then they deserved to be bio-massed for stupidty.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:59:00 - [30] I'm curious how the Theology Council will respond...

Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:02:00 - [31] you could at least give them a month to see if they can write themselves out of it i used to dnd (i'm not a nerd i swear) and i liked to throw "impossible" things at players so that they'd get upset and only explain few weeks down the road how it happened.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:04:00 - [32] Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/06/2008 15:05:03 Originally by: Brainless Bimbo If the other Ritual Suiciders didn't do the same then they deserved to be bio-massed for stupidty. You realize this is the Amarr we're talking about, right? They all deserve to be bio-massed for stupidity.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Hardin Long winded complaint about Cannon. Do I really need to point out Khanid refused suicide, broke away and formed his own empire? Jamyl easily could have faked her suicide and simply was in hiding until the time was right or any number of things. You dont really expect the royal heirs to follow the rules and be obiedent to tradition when it means they and those that support them could lose out, do you?
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Faife you could at least give them a month to see if they can write themselves out of it Or, heck, another four years. Why not?
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Hardin Long winded complaint about Cannon. Do I really need to point out Khanid refused suicide, broke away and formed his own empire? Jamyl easily could have faked her suicide and simply was in hiding until the time was right or any number of things. You dont really expect the royal heirs to follow the rules and be obiedent to tradition when it means they and those that support them could lose out, do you? That's the point though - Khanid didn't end up as the Emperor.
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Winterblink This just in: Jamyl (pictured second from left) celebrating with the rest of her friends and advisors. When asked about her abrupt return, she replied with a sullen, "braaaaiiins." You made me spit Quafe all over my keyboard... Back on topic: I believe CCP are simply 'correcting' their storyline. After all they never expected their nominated team to lose the original succession tournament - and never for a second considered that a pacifist like Doriam would win. If Jamyl had won would she have been executed 6 months into the job? I sincerely doubt it! It is quite clear to older 'Amarr' RPers, that there has been a 'cadre' of Jamyl fans within CCP since the start, who have been actively pushing for her return (despite the complications that brings) instead of adapting the storyline (i.e. bothering to name a new Sarum heir and developing their personality) after the Imperial Succession event. CCP are now back on track with their original 'storyline' and god forbid that we object at the apparently nonsensical way that it has been implemented Of course the novel may explain all this - maybe that's the purpose I just feel slight used that us RPers will end up having to buy a book to explain WTF is happening in a game which I already pay ú38 a month for! I shall of course seek out Ginger/Tony Gonzales next week and waterboard them until I get an explanation j/k ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:14:00 - [37] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Hardin Long winded complaint about Cannon. Do I really need to point out Khanid refused suicide, broke away and formed his own empire? Jamyl easily could have faked her suicide and simply was in hiding until the time was right or any number of things. You dont really expect the royal heirs to follow the rules and be obiedent to tradition when it means they and those that support them could lose out, do you? That's the point though - Khanid didn't end up as the Emperor. Thats a matter of interpertation. The guy refuses suicide, takes a titan for his own, goes into his vast tracks of land and declares himself the immortal king of the region and has been doing so for about what, 200 years now? Besides, King, Emperior, same diffrence. Both are the leaders of their people but my point is that Khanid didnt off himself like tradition said he was supposed to so its logical to assume other royal heirs would do the same thing and either refuse or fake their deaths. Given EvE's enviroment, can you really say you are surprised that this happened? -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Abrazzar I'm curious how the Theology Council will respond... readies a stake and piles some wood
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:27:00 - [39] A quote from PIE forums: Quote: It seems that everything else in EVE is dynamic except CCPs storylines. (That were written down in a bar, on a napkin, ten years ago.) Personally I don't care if Jamyl is named "Most Excellent Galactic Supremo" , 'Wench-in-charge" or even "Victor" - provided CCP explain it properly!
Lyzra Peregrine Guidance Systems Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:27:00 - [40] I think the criticism for the whome current line run by CCP with these things have been clear and backed pretty well. There is yet another aspect that has been also touched and it is the side of RP community. In this case really those that have been trying to read through prime fiction to realize what kind of beings amarrians are and attempting, more or less to play the part. This brings up my situation, im somewhat aged char and been allways supporter of ultra traditionalist House Ardishapur, whom also are known for they religious zeal and rigid old ways. Now im presented with news that not only does the head of the House Ardishapur that reigns the world I was born from accepts an heretical heir. A heir that lost to win God's favour to rise on the throne, one that did either clone themselfs and tainted herself. Or one that simply chose a cowards way and staged her death and chose to digrace amarrian traditions. On a RP point of view this is an immense outrage, if prime fiction would hold true. Not that CCP seems to care. House Ardishapurs fiefdoms or House itself would rise against an heir that spits and ****es on the honor and pride of the House itself. How do they expect the worlds under control of Houses, especially those that ARE traditionalists are just going to shrugh they shoulders and accept this sillyness. IF I were a noble in House Ardishapur. I would challenge the heir to a duel to the death for breach of traditions and supporting a heretic to the throne. Yet, it seems suprisingly even NPC's that are supposed to follow traditions and enforce law in the Empire just sit still, thumbs up they asses and cheer for the new Empress. On a players view it seems CCP is altering the whole amarrian Empire to a direction not supported by prime fiction and on my part im really wondering if I should simply retire from the game for good and claim my charachter went into excile to stick in following the traditions and proper laws that seem to been thrown into wind.

Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:34:00 - [41] nods to Lyzra What is also strange is that with the upcoming novel and the declared attempt to draw more on target groups, not yet interested in online games specifically but interested in the general sci-fi itself, a storyline develops that breaks with the lore in favour of sensationalism. Oh no wait.. actually that could make sense..
Wild Rho GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:36:00 - [42] Edited by: Wild Rho on 13/06/2008 15:36:17 Originally by: Hardin I believe CCP are simply 'correcting' their storyline. After all they never expected their nominated team to lose the original succession tournament - and never for a second considered that a pacifist like Doriam would win. If Jamyl had won would she have been executed 6 months into the job? I sincerely doubt it! It is quite clear to older 'Amarr' RPers, that there has been a 'cadre' of Jamyl fans within CCP since the start, who have been actively pushing for her return (despite the complications that brings) instead of adapting the storyline (i.e. bothering to name a new Sarum heir and developing their personality) after the Imperial Succession event. CCP are now back on track with their original 'storyline' and god forbid that we object at the apparently nonsensical way that it has been implemented Of course the novel may explain all this - maybe that's the purpose I just feel slight used that us RPers will end up having to buy a book to explain WTF is happening in a game which I already pay ú38 a month for! I shall of course seek out Ginger/Tony Gonzales next week and waterboard them until I get an explanation j/k This was one of the main things that put me off having a bit of role play (after a couple of brief attempts). What's the point in bothering to get involved in a story everything has already been predetermined regardless of what the players do? Not only that but those involved don't seem either willing or able to have a dynamic element to the overall story. The whole thing may as well be a weekly comic strip or book for all the genuine interaction involved.
Karazack The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:42:00 - [43] Edited by: Karazack on 13/06/2008 15:43:55 1. Reason she "came back from the dead" is simple: She cheated and used cloning technology, sure traditions and scripture are important to the amarr nobility - as long as they get them where and what they want of course ;) If it was her original body that committed ritual suicide back then or if it was already a clone made for that deceptive purpose, who knows, but it is secondary really. 2. The reason the other heirs back her up now is harder to explain I admit. Probably she has some big time under the hand blackmailing leverage on them, would not surprise me. It is a well know fact the amarr nobility is a bunch of corrupt decadent bigots and every one of the heirs has most likely more then just one proverbial corpse hidden in their proverbial basement. Only suiting that the biggest bigot of them all shall now become Empress... Amarr victor indeed
Eldon Rosen	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:51:00 - [44] Edited by: Eldon Rosen on 13/06/2008 15:54:31 Having lost the 'Imperial Succession' tournament.. ..Jamyl was involved in an eleborate plot to save the Amarr Empire from the peace loving pacifist Dorian. Having been so profoundly beaten by the Jovians, and sensing a Minmatar uprising on the horizon, the succession had been fixed by a group of conspiritors to allow the only heir that could prove the saviour of Amarr to win. However something went wrong, Dorian was the victor.. ..the group of conspirators knew Dorian was an inadequate Emperor and would only drive the empire to ruin. So they searched the empire and found a fervent follower who looked suitably like Jamyl, they then sent Jamyl into hiding to return when the time was right, and sent the body double to her death. Use your imagination it's not too difficult
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Amarr nobility is not allowed to use clone technology. God's Flesh may not be copied. It's heresy. They aren't allowed to come back from the dead either, but this one did. It's a no-brainer, she cheated by using a clone. ------------------------------------------------
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:04:00 - [46] Edited by: Hardin on 13/06/2008 16:06:07 Originally by: Eldon Rosen Use your imagination it's not too difficult Of course we can come up with a thousand reasons to justify Jamyl's return - it would just be nice to know what they are BEFORE she is appointed Empress I know that the Empire likes its secrets but at present there has been absolutely zero justification Even if the Amarr media/public werent questioning this 'miracle' then I would certainly expect the Gallente/Minmatar/Caldari media to be asking some hard questions about why a 'heretic' seems to be a shoe in to the biggest job in the galaxy! ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:05:00 - [47] Just because there's no full explanation yet doesn't mean there won't be. I'm pretty confident the novel will offer further insights into all of this. Really though, this is a bit surprising Hardin. You should know as well as anyone that Amarrian society is not exclusively filled with "faithful believers" nor is lacking precedent for drastic alterations in fundamental tenets of the faith. Quote: My word lies within all All it requires is the breath of faith To ignite the fire So the lost can find their way So the fallen can rise To take their place as my chosen For you are all my creation And are all equal in my kingdom - Apocryphon, Lost Passages. The Sahtogas system description demonstrates pretty clearly how inconvenient tenets of the faith will be discarded. The Scriptures and traditions of the faith are only recognised as authoritative so long as those with the power to maintain or discard them chose to do the former. Otherwise they simply re-write the rules. They are His representative in the mortal realms after all, they have the divine mandate to change things as He, through them, sees fit. The Khumaak / Outcast Chronicles paint a picture of Amarrian society where religion and tradition sometimes railroads people down paths they do not actually want to travel. Idonis Ardishapur regrets what he has to do. What he has to do. Quote: ôAnnihilate the Starkmanir tribe.ö Idonis paused for a moment and caught his breath, mentally crushing something deep within himself. ôInform the orbital fleet. Have our people out of the cities and in orbit within a rotation. This planet will burn as a beacon, to illuminate the galaxy with the strength of House Ardishapur, and the Divinity of our purpose. None shall be spared.ö Idonis looked his friend in the eye as he spoke, seeing the regret there. He knew his own eyes showed the same. Regret about the life they were to leave, regret about what they had to become, but most of all, regret about what they were about to do. He allowed himself one more memory of his little hiding place, the long supple limbs of his Starkmanir lover, and the dreams he had harbored for the Minmatars. Then he let it go. Royal Heirs could not afford the luxury of dream. He saves (what we once thought) was the rest of the Starkmanir. That is surely "heresy" too. You have right there, your precedents for Emperors acting according to THEIR will, not tradition. It's up for debate, in-character, whether or not Idonis and Sarum represent the will of God. And Karsoth, he has never struck me as anything more than a political power-player, his talk of the faith little more than a tool to assert and maintain authority. If he were the staunch traditionalist and Guardian of the thron as he claimed to be, then why has he disappeared? Why? Because he knows all too well how Amarrian society works. He knows how easily fundamental traditions can be swept aside in the name of power when it is the Divine Emperor doing to the sweeping. He knows what that would mean for him. Like I said, I'm surprised Hardin. I would have thought you realised that the Amarrian religion is as much a malleable political tool as much as it was a literal faith. Or maybe I'm wrong about all that, you tell me!
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:06:00 - [48] This is absolutely crazy. Apparently someone hasn't been following their own storyline or thinking about their own constructed history. My take - its necessary for the book. Wrong reason to do this! Sorry Tony.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:09:00 - [49] Seriously, you Amarr roleplayers are the worst roleplayers I've ever encountered online. Why do you roleplay such incredibly simple, one-dimensional, low-IQ characters? The Amarr are ritualistic, yes, but ritual serves many purposes. The Roman Catholic church has used ritual to legitimize power for centuries. Do you really think all the Popes back in the middle ages followed the letter and spirit of the Bible? There may be some stupid "true believers" in the Empire (like the characters you're role playing) but 99% of people have at least partial understanding that rituals exist to provide legitimacy and a sense of stability in a rapidly-changing universe. Jamyl could have just came out and said "Listen. The Minmatar were about to *****your asses and I'm the only one who could fight them. Make me Dictator-in-Chief or I'm quitting, moving to Khanid Prime, and leaving you all to the Elders." By allowing the other heirs to go through the ritual, it makes everything much more comfortable for the citizens and mid-level leaders of the Empire.
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Eldon Rosen Edited by: Eldon Rosen on 13/06/2008 15:54:31 Having lost the 'Imperial Succession' tournament.. ..Jamyl was involved in an eleborate plot to save the Amarr Empire from the peace loving pacifist Dorian. [...] While I really appreciate your suggestion for a rationalization, the point of this thread is not, that it is impossible to explain this development, but that any explanation for this development, we can currently imagine contradicts the canon. The thing that seems to be difficult to grasp, judging from the reactions is that Amarr is not a modern state. In a certain sense the selfperception of the empire, is that it forms what Thomas Aquinas called "civtate dei", the worldly community of the faithfull that foreshadows the realm to come, with the main difference that for Amarr the realm to come, lies not in the beyond, but in the very reality, the universe is theirs to claim by gods will and order. The Amarr Empire is as much a metaphysical one as a worldy one. If we looks at Amarr we need to take off the glasses of rationalism through which we look at our disenchanted reality, and try to imagine a world where every event has not only a rational but also metaphysical context.

Bartholomeus Crane Estrale Frontiers	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:13:00 - [51] It's a very curious thing this Jamyl thing. I'm from the Federation, the most barren RP faction in EVE (Yay democracy just about covers it, and my Intaki freedom struggle has been neglected the moment they first mentioned it), and even I can see that this just doesn't work at all. However, I'm quite sure that the storylines about the Amarr Emperor haven't finished yet (he said enviously), and that there is still some fiction to be published. But I agree with one thing, no god fearing Amarr would ever accept a cloned Emperor (Empress) without some sort of resistance. Let's just hope CCP know what they're doing.
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:14:00 - [52] Its easier to categorize role-players in an ad hominem attack than to deal with the truth or falsity of the arguments being present. When you catch up on the issue being discussed - feel free to contribute. If your here simply to commit errors in logic, save it. Role playing is part of Eve .. issues of consistence in Role player are valid issues.
Lyzra Peregrine Guidance Systems Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:20:00 - [53] I suppose it is pointless to wonder what is political reasons for Jamyl's reappearance and so forth. There could be some funny aspects as Khanid Empires leader christening hismelf with a new name Xenu, sending Jamyl into Empires help with a new suprise fleet of flying saucers to bring.... faith to the Empire. Afterall we all known Khanid secretly coveted Jamyl and had procured DNA before her demise, this new truly named Xemyl is Khanids... err handpuppet to take over the Empire. Regardless of this, curiosity and views of letsay history are contradicting this type of situations to ever happen. Secrets are fine, but even in the Empire the nobles would not gain support from lower nobles if they take part in acts that are defying the Empire, acts that weaken the faith of people. Jamyl is clearly known to be one that God did not choose to ascend into Empire's throne. Everyone within the Empire knows this, how are the heirs even guaranteering support from they own house, less from surrounding holders. I could not see it coming at all. Jamyl is an example of what the Empire has allways tried to avoid. An Emperor whom isnt chosen by God, one whom has forsaken the Holy Scriptures and as a once perfect heir now soiled by her deeds so badly she can't be allowed any credibility. Worse is that CCP did involve all traditionalist and loyalist Houses in the strange support behind Jamyl. If the common sense, faith and amarrian culture would prevail. The Jamyl construct will not only fall, but it will take all supporting heirs with her. That would cause loss of face of all loyalist and traditionalist Houses and weaken they status greatly in the eyes of citizens and possible next proper Emperor.
Phaige Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:22:00 - [54] Originally by: Hugh Ruka It was also pointed somewhere else the the Minmatar Elders also died during the backstory some time ago with no clone backup. Yet they suddenly appeared again. However I do not follow the RP side of things, I just picked that up on the forums. Seems Jamyl Sarum is not the only zombie in the game ... If I recall correctly, only some of the Elders were killed.
Yann Ephemere	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:27:00 - [55] Edited by: Yann Ephemere on 13/06/2008 16:28:38 Quote: but that any explanation for this development, we can currently imagine contradicts the canon. Nope. The Amarr empire as a whole is very religious. The individuals in it vary. Read "Theodicy". In it one Amarrian is portrayed as near-fanatical in his faith, but comes to an earth-shattering conversion and rejects it entirely. Another is portrayed as cynical, seeing faith as only something to be used to manipulate others. Oh, and the cynical one? His last name was Sarum. But at the end of the day, we can only wait and see, so I'm going to back out of this thread until more is revealed. Edit: Oh, and who says the Empire isn't going to be shaken to its very foundation? In case you hadn't noticed, that's precisely what's happening to the other Empires...
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:27:00 - [56] Originally by: Kai Zion Just because there's no full explanation yet doesn't mean there won't be. I'm pretty confident the novel will offer further insights into all of this. I am sure you are right. I am not afterall saying there is no explanation that CCP can come up with to justify this. What I am 'whinging' about is a) Why should we have to buy a novel to get this explanation? b) The storyline, as progressed through game news, is at present all we as pod pilots have to go on. The storyline as presented so far does not make any sense in RP terms. I believe roleplay should be as 'realistic' as possible - it's why I am in the CVA after all. In reality a 'story' such as this would be accompanied by all kinds of speculations and discussion. Yet here we have virtually nothing. This is drama for drama sake - with no apparent consideration given to how a story like this would play out realistically. Take a sudden change of leadership in some far away country. The media may have no clue what prompted it - but there would be speculation and discussion. People in the know would be contacted and asked for an opinion. In amongst the pure speculation would be the occasional bit of truth (a bit like CAOD actually ) - but here we just seem to have been presented with a fait accompli with none of the accompanying explanation/speculation. And I reiterate if the Amarr media had been gagged then its certain that the Gallente/Caldari/Minmatar media would be voicing their opinions. As it stands it kinda feels like: "Here is Jamyl Sarum - she is your new Empress - we don't care if it apparently contradicts the prime fiction we have produced up to this point - if you want the proper explanation go read our book."
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:31:00 - [57] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Seriously, you Amarr roleplayers are the worst roleplayers I've ever encountered online. If you think that the current Jamyl storyline is anything other than a cheap, poorly thought out way to get CCP's story back on line after dynamic in-game events took their prescripted concept off-track, then we'll be happy to take this opinion for what it's worth Not only is it bad writing, it's just bad execution: roleplay should have meaning and affect the story of the game IN GAME...that's impossible to do if CCP is going to reign everything back with their own preconcieved plot with a couple of poorly thought-out keystrokes.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:32:00 - [58] > The flesh of the divine cannot be cloned, so Jamyl should not be Empress. > The president of the Federation may serve only a single term so Foiritan should not be president. > The CEP has a firm and established system based on tradition and meritocracy, so Tibus Heth should not be the dictator of the State. The Republic is headless so escapes criticism for now. Basically CCP has thrown out the established "facts" of their IP and provided no explanation. Perhaps the book will explain all, but the fact is that the whatever allowed these people to come to, or remain in, power would have to public knowledge to prevent public outrage. It could be worse you know, there are several factions who haven't been given any usable backstory, good or bad, in years. On a lighter note may I be the first to say: LOL EMPRESS!
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:36:00 - [59] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Basically CCP has thrown out the established "facts" of their IP and provided no explanation. Perhaps the book will explain all, but the fact is that the whatever allowed these people to come to, or remain in, power would have to public knowledge to prevent public outrage. Yes, perhaps, but to get to the book we are having to be lead down a pretty hard to believe garden path, and having to believe some pretty inconsistent turn of events! To get to the book, we are having to believe the impossible!
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:43:00 - [60] Originally by: Rodj Blake Unexpected twists and turns are indeed good. But they need to be believable, and right now this is anything but. It's also not entirely unexpected. As I mentioned earlier, there have been rumours about the return of Jamyl going back to even before she "died". It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility. You can't adjust yourself to an Amarr being ruled by infallible people because that would lay the farce at the hands of amarr and you'd would not be in control of the god head. You've played the game 5 years banging on how much Amarr is divne and you don't want to live news feed to newsfeed trying to see your God's justice play out. Its just easier for you to say, "Amarr Victor," in transmissions and write up a bunch of text. Now you have to get out there in space and prove your worth. You have to look to newsfeeds and story items to help justify your IC faith. Sucks to be you having to now act like everyone else in EVE. Team Minmatar

Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:44:00 - [61] Edited by: Kai Zion on 13/06/2008 16:44:56 You're certainly right, Hardin. The silence on the issue is conspicuous. As for having to buy the book to understand it all, I can't think of a good reason why other than that it's good business. If we assume the book is going to have all the answers, however, then presumably too once the book is released, the pertinent information in it will become widely available to the players. If not through further articles / chronicles, then simply by word of mouth. I think it's questionable to claim that you will be forced to buy the book to understand what's going on. It will flesh it out further, most likely, but I think the fundamental answers will be provided "free of charge", so to speak.
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:45:00 - [62] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 16:45:47 Originally by: Yann Ephemere Nope. The Amarr empire as a whole is very religious. The individuals in it vary. You argue from an individualistic point of view, that is not applicable here, since a culture is defined by more than the sum of the individuals constituting it at a given time. During the struggle that lead towards the unification of Japan, the person of the Emperor was never touched. Surely he was more or less taken hostage by different noble houses over the time, to serve as instrument for the legalization of their claims to power, but he was never touched. The idea of harming the semi-deific emperor was so such an cultural anathema, that even the most ruthless and opportunistic feudal princes, did shy away from it in fear of the public reaction and probably, internalized religious reflex.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Kaylana Syi It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility. ...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules.
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:57:00 - [64] Originally by: Garreck ...so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture... There's canon that says otherwise, too, Mr Garreck!
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:57:00 - [65] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Kaylana Syi It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility. ...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules. That can happen when instead of your God showing up to your tea party the Elders show up in capital fleets and inflict retribution for the crimes your people committed against the Minmatar people. Fear begets fear. All I see are fearful Amarr wanting to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to show the power of Amarr get in space and shoot some ex-slaves? Don't wait for a train that is never going to come. Team Minmatar
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Kaylana Syi It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility. ...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules. Mmmmm... Gallente prostitutes... /emote takes a shower and seeks out his local inquisitor ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:04:00 - [67] Bah, brothels and prostitutes charge money. More selective interpretations from CVA!
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:11:00 - [68] Edited by: Garreck on 13/06/2008 17:20:13 Originally by: Kaylana Syi That can happen when instead of your God showing up to your tea party the Elders show up in capital fleets and inflict retribution for the crimes your people committed against the Minmatar people. Fear begets fear. All I see are fearful Amarr wanting to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to show the power of Amarr get in space and shoot some ex-slaves? Don't wait for a train that is never going to come. So what deeply rooted cultural anchor went out the window when the Jove smoked an entire Amarr armada? None, that I can recall. If there was a previous precident for Amarrians just throwing so much tradition right out the window in such a short period of time, I don't think there would be such complaints. This isn't about the result: we can roleplay the result and that's fine. It'll be exciting. It's about how poor the introduction of this new plot is. In a matter of days we have Jamyl blow back into the picture and be endorsed as the new emperor by the heirs with almost no mention what-so-ever of anybody in a position of power wondering why she's alive in the first place and why she should be even considered for empress at all. Nope...we just skip right to "yay, our savior! take the throne!" Seems a bit...I dunno...like a middleschooler's fanfiction. I think a military uprising woulda been cool. Admirals x, y, and z from various families declare support for Jamyl because they were there when Jamyl saved their bacon, theology council says "you're out of your mind," Admirals pull support of their fleets (in this time of Amarrian crisis no less) until the Council acquiesces. This gets drawn out for a couple of weeks, with shocking Amarrian defeat after Amarrian defeat until the Council realizes a changed Empire is better than a crushed Empire... blah blah blah. That's just one possibility. Just seems cheap the way it has actually played out so far.
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:13:00 - [69] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Kaylana Syi It is not believable to you because your precious amarr are flopping all over the place with fallibility. ...or it's not believable because after reading so much canon about how stiff and unadaptable Amarrians are as a culture, (reinforced by the story of what happened to the last guy to break the rules of succession,) suddenly the heirs are as flexible as a gallente prostitute when it comes to succession rules. The last guy was Khanid II -and as I've pointed out in this thread this storyline is arbitrary, and shows that someone has not been following EVE history, or considered this carefully. This storyline seems only suited for one purpose - to lead us to the book. Thats the wrong reason to do this (Sorry Tony)
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:38:00 - [70] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 17:43:28 Originally by: Garreck [...] So what deeply rooted cultural anchor went out the window when the Jove smoked an entire Amarr armada? None, that I can recall. [...] Nope...we just skip right to "yay, our savior! take the throne!" [...] Seems a bit...I dunno...like a middleschooler's fanfiction. [...] I think a military uprising woulda been cool. chuckles I did not want to be that harsh with words grins I really loved the whole downtime storyline, till a certain point. First I sat there and thought, are they really doing this, turning the whole universe upside down, how cool and novel would that be!? Unfortunately as the story developed and escalated into a firework of titan taskgroups out of nowhere, lead by the mythic elders, my awe and hopes faded away in anticipation of the anticlimatic return to normal, that had to follow. When Jamyl stepped on the stage,I was so utterly disappointed with the cheap resolution of an otherwise mindshattering great storyline. There was to much firework for any substance to remain in the end. How epic would have been an Amarr Empire shattered and shaken, by the strikes of the elders that vanished as mysteriously as they came, fighting for its survival against the Minmatar on the outside and slave insurgencies on the inside ? I also agree that the current development should result in a civil war or at least an attempted uprising by the traditionalist and religious elites.

diabolic clone Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:05:00 - [71] I for one, embrace our new zombie overlord. Cloning isn't exactly unheard of for the amarr http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/26-02-07.asp Just taboo. But who knows maybe she isn't a clone. Atleast the reclaiming is in full swing.. hopefully my wallet balance will swing up a bit so I can participate. Although a few lousy inter stellar kredits won't stop me from joining in if we take over those gallante brothels.
Lyzra Peregrine Guidance Systems Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:35:00 - [72] I slip a little from the topic and adress so called amarrian rp, as its seems to be understood by outsiders. As an amarrian roleplayer, I do not claim oocly that amarrian culture is superior. It is just A culture. Those that seem to be critical of amarrian roleplaying in some aspects seem to have problems understanding what roleplaying is and what it involves when amarrian culture or background comes into play. Amarrians are by nature as flawed as ANY other culture, but the culture itself as embracing traditions, faith and loyality for the Empire so strongly brings forth some aspects of roleplaying we cannot really deny. Those that do not show themselfs strong in faith are kind of anomalies, priests or others would snitch them for Interal Order. So any seriously played amarrians would be adamant and very well aware of his religious views, whatever they are. Clueless they aint on that aspect, youve been seeing religion most of your life VERY close at hand and any questions you had youve spoken through with priesthood. Second, amarrians DO believe in they own Empire. On they point of view it is really a continuity of several thousands years of prosperity and they understand where its based upon. Unity in faith, loyality and culture. Not that ALL agree with one another, but this they know. Final part is about the fact amarrian society in a way is theocracy, ruled by the priesthood and in the end Emperor whom is the religious leader aswell. Appearances are important in amarrian society, afterall its a caste culture. If higher caste is caught in corruption and bull**** lower classes are associated its not... seen fitting for they status. This is the major point where the current news clash with the amarrian prime fiction and roleplay. As rising in amarrian status is work for generations even perceived problems can block your path. You need to hold reputation and so forth, no matter what situation you land in. Yet, the whole Jamyl situation does look as if all of a sudden Houses are doing things that would ruin they credibility. The way Jamyl's apperance is brought on the stage is as how you might do it in Gallente Federation if following prime fiction. There is allmost no signs of it happening in Amarr. Except mention of heirs and laadidaa of not using they own rights. Amarrians by prime fiction are xenophobic and deeply religious, its suprising as some people see it 'wrong' way to roleplay them.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:38:00 - [73] I was under the impression Jamyl Sarum feigned her own death this whole time, I think the majority that cares did get that impression too, you were just fooled by the apparent media stunt basking in the lights of your self-importance being invited to the show.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:42:00 - [74] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/06/2008 18:45:13 Another question surrounds Jamyl's racism. IIRC she only allowed Amarrian wingmen to fly for her during the Championships. As such, she clearly believes in the supremacy of the Amarr race. It seems that her views on inter-racial harmony are akin to Josef Goebels'. And yet, who here expects her to kick non-Amarrians out of the 24th Crusade if she takes power? From a game balance point of view, it's not very likely is it? So the question must be - what changed her mind?
White Ronin Screenout	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:44:00 - [75] CCP, please dont screw up the rogue drone storyline and rp the way you have with the amarr players. Thanks.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:47:00 - [76] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Now you have to get out there in space and prove your worth. You have to look to newsfeeds and story items to help justify your IC faith. Sucks to be you having to now act like everyone else in EVE. I've been out in space proving my worth since before I joined PIE, thank you very much.

CCP RyanD C C P	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:11:00 - [77] We decided some time ago that following the release of Empyrean Age (the expansion) we would give Empyrean Age (the novel) a little time to stand on its own. We're in a bit of chaotic time right now - the novel starts before the events of the downtime, and ends just after the downtime. So you've all seen some events from the novel en media res. In a week or so the novel goes on sale in the UK, and these boards will be full of spoilers for people who can't get it immediately. The novel deals extensively with the questions asked in this thread; you'll be able to judge for yourselves if you enjoy reading the story or not. Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. But we feel like there's more value in getting our go-forward story framework in place so that we can start working hand-in-hand with in-game player activities to advance the overall immersion of EVE than waiting in realtime just to satisfy a "realism" check. There's a lot more going on with Sarum than just "she's a clone". The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers. We think that's a good storytelling foundation and I'm glad to see people care passionately about it. RyanD

Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:15:00 - [78] Well thank you for replying. I will try and restrain CVA from bombing Sarum Prime for the moment then ps. I am still gonna hunt down Ginger next week ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:32:00 - [79] Edited by: Jove X on 13/06/2008 19:34:28 Originally by: CCP RyanD Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. But we feel like there's more value in getting our go-forward story framework in place so that we can start working hand-in-hand with in-game player activities to advance the overall immersion of EVE than waiting in realtime just to satisfy a "realism" check. There's a lot more going on with Sarum than just "she's a clone". The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers. We think that's a good storytelling foundation and I'm glad to see people care passionately about it. RyanD RyanD, that much is obvious - and of course the Novel is going to force certain events. But .. What about the criticism that this whole storyline complete messes over the earlier Khanid storyline? This completely undermines why Khanid II is in exile - why there is even a Khanid Kingdom. It also messes with the whole process of selecting an Emperor / Empress since it has done away with any sort of trial or contention for the position. This means that all Amarr tradition is currently out the window (since if one man - Khanid was exiled for ignoring tradition - what happens when all the heirs do?) Simply providing explanations for why Lady Sarum is Empress is not going to to fix problems of incongruity with the Khanid. Has Tony, and the novel storyline even considered how this legitimizes Khanid II's right to be reconsidered an heir? The point here is not simply that Lady Sarum's story is not known. The point here is that even with trying to set up the Novel - this storyline seems to ignore others. ?
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:40:00 - [80] Originally by: CCP RyanD [...] Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. [...] I'm glad to see people care passionately about it. Thank you very much for this statement, the very least it might help to enforce a bit more suspension of belief on oneself an try to more look at the core story than the presentation, at the very best it shows that we are not the only one who care Still I am looking forward to see the resolution of the issue concerning "that woman".

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:48:00 - [81] Originally by: CCP RyanD We decided some time ago that following the release of Empyrean Age (the expansion) we would give Empyrean Age (the novel) a little time to stand on its own. We're in a bit of chaotic time right now - the novel starts before the events of the downtime, and ends just after the downtime. So you've all seen some events from the novel en media res. In a week or so the novel goes on sale in the UK, and these boards will be full of spoilers for people who can't get it immediately. The novel deals extensively with the questions asked in this thread; you'll be able to judge for yourselves if you enjoy reading the story or not. Someone earlier observed that we're advancing plots to get things back on track, and I will agree that we are. We're not moving in any rational "realtime" mode - things that should take years are taking days. But we feel like there's more value in getting our go-forward story framework in place so that we can start working hand-in-hand with in-game player activities to advance the overall immersion of EVE than waiting in realtime just to satisfy a "realism" check. There's a lot more going on with Sarum than just "she's a clone". The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers. We think that's a good storytelling foundation and I'm glad to see people care passionately about it. RyanD In other words, you want to force the RP players to buy a book from you, to be able to continue RPing with all the info? At least it looks like that to me. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:52:00 - [82] Originally by: Hugh Ruka In other words, you want to force the RP players to buy a book from you, to be able to continue RPing with all the info? At least it looks like that to me. I don't think its quit like that. I think its more ... "In order to ensure the Novel is consistent with the Eve Universe, certain events had to take place". Fine. But those certain events themselves are not consistent with the EVE universe; at least part of the History of EVE's universe. <my bet> The novel is oblivious to the issue this causes the Khanid </my bet> I sure hope I'm wrong.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:09:00 - [83] To expand on another thread, I submit to you the following assertion: 1. Minmatar fleet defeats concord. 2. Jamyl Sarum defeats Minmatar fleet. Conclusion: Jamyl Sarum can do approximately whatever she wants to, up to and including coming back from the dead. Seriously, who would want to mess with someone who took down a fleet more powerful than almighty concord? _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:12:00 - [84] Edited by: Jove X on 13/06/2008 20:12:13 Originally by: Del Narveux Conclusion: Jamyl Sarum can do approximately whatever she wants to, up to and including coming back from the dead. Seriously, who would want to mess with someone who took down a fleet more powerful than almighty concord? I assume that is what the novel is going to iron out. However, Khanid II as a potential contender for Emperor, also has a valid claim. Look at his accomplishments. Also consider that with Empress Sarum, much Amarrian lore is being chucked out.
Danae Melios Federation Zone Operations Command	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:14:00 - [85] It is politics as usual in the Empire. By which I mean politics as it always has been. Those who cheat and win are the rulers, those who cheat and lose are the heretics. After all, winners re-write the Scriptures, yeah? Seriously, is this anything worse than what the Caldari have been handed with Tibus Heth suddenly going from common laborer to CEO of megacorporations and now ruler of all of Caldari forces? I was just as aghast as you were, Hardin, when I saw this but I knew from the moment that it mentioned that Domain was being attacked by the Elder Fleet that the target was Sarum Prime and that Jamyl would be the new Emperor. The Elders were supposed to be dead, but managed to knock CONCORD out and run all over the Mandate and Empire. And it was inevitable that in the face of this, that the new Emperor would be a militant Reclaimist from Sarum. Which set the stage for the return of a household name, whose reappearance is miraculous. Hasn't the Chamberlain been saying all along that God will give the Empire and Emperor when the time is right? I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power. Perhaps pressure was put on the other Heirs or perhaps they just bowed to the political inevitability in an attempt to stave off civil war over the throne in the face of Minmatar aggression.
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:19:00 - [86] Originally by: Danae Melios I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power. Are you suggesting the Enheduanni?
Danae Melios Federation Zone Operations Command	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:37:00 - [87] Originally by: Jove X Originally by: Danae Melios I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power. Are you suggesting the Enheduanni? I am suggesting a group that wants the Empires at war. One idea is that it is holdouts from the old war (like Admiral Noir) who seek to undermine CONCORD to let the fighting resume. That the Caldari fleets were ready to move when the Elder fleet took out CONCORD speaks of coordination or at least cooperation across multiple factions.

CCP RyanD C C P	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:55:00 - [88] Tony and the story team are nothing if not aware of all the various threads. They appear to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the backstory. I doubt that they are creating any content without considering how it fits into the tapestry of EVE. That said, I also don't think that they feel that the established continuity is inflexible, nor do they necessarily accept that each and every "fact" in it has to be 100% reconciled with new content going forward. EVE's backstory is 5+ years old now and in that time a certain number of errors, inconsistencies, and bad ideas have inevitably crept into the support materials. Like the good gardeners they are, I expect the story team will prune where needed, weed when necessary, and replant if required for growth. Of course they'll probably contort their work more than might be strictly necessary to avoid excessive retcons, but that's because I think they care as much about trying to be consistent with what has gone before as it is possible for them to be.

Wloire Macabre Votum Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:06:00 - [89] Originally by: Danae Melios Edited by: Danae Melios on 13/06/2008 20:17:19 The Elders were supposed to be dead, but managed to knock CONCORD out and run all over the Mandate and Empire. Edit: and I know Jamyl is a she but I kind of feel that Amarrians probably don't have "Empress" as a title for head of state. The elders were not dead. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that only the Thukker and Starkmanir tribe elders were killed (hence why the Thukkers are not part of the Republic.)The short story Theodicy mentions this. This means that of the current Elders only two might possibly be imposters. You also seem to act like new Elder's cannot come to be. Before the Minmatar had cloning technology and advanced life extending medecine they probably had Elders. When these elders died wouldent new ones be appointed? [/derail] Give the newcast time to work out the Jamyl storyline. She hasent become Empress, the council still has to approve. Only the heirs have refused to question her revival. Just give it time.
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:16:00 - [90] Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 13/06/2008 21:26:38 I have to agree with the OP. It is true the caldari got the same treatment with Heth's fast track to power. However, it was understood Heth was being brought in just for FW. The amarr emperor storyline has been in limbo forever by comparison. With regards to the Elders, the Novella said that the Elders for the Starkmanir, Nefantar and Thukker were killed. That means that the Elders for Sibiestor, Brutor, Krusual, and Vherokior were not killed. Of course the question is are these the same Elders from that era, or their sucessors?

Tomahawk Bliss The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Rodj Blake Unexpected twists and turns are indeed good. But they need to be believable, and right now this is anything but. your opinion. the folks who made the Amarr up are the folks who created this plot. therefore it is correct with the original ideology of the Amarr world. Its okay to not like it, but to claim its unbelievable is to say that you know better what the empire, Sarum and the other heirs would do in this situation. I hate to disagree with you guys, Hardin especially, but you are solid wrong that the plot isn't plausible and while we could argue in circle all day about feudalism, the power of Sarum to hide, who knew and who didn't, the strength of the Imperial fleet and the importance of Tradition vs. realistic power grabbing...there is no point. the NPC's Psychological make up and motivations are known to CCP and CCP only. These NPCs made choices completely followed the guidelines of said makeup as the animators (CCP) were the ones who did it. Its not like someone hacked the game and took over Sarum during downtime and changed this, this was planned.
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:20:00 - [92] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss the folks who made the Amarr up are the folks who created this plot. therefore it is correct with the original ideology of the Amarr world. We won't actually be able to say this until we read the novel. I can accept we need to force some storyline issues to provide the novel room to contribute. My problem is that these 'forced' stories are out of line with much Amarrian tradition. I think that this business with Lady Sarum ignores the business with Khanid. That is going to be hard to reconcile unless Tony also saw that conflict. We'll see when the novel comes out. Until then, its not exactly clear that this is all consistent with the Amarr world.
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:35:00 - [93] The difference between a believable unexpected twist and the farce that CCP fabricated is quite clear. When a movie has an unexpected twist (e.g. Usual Suspects, The Prestige...etc), it is believable when the plot leading up to it contains clues without giving you the complete picture. Thus if you go back and watch the movie you will find clues that lead to the eventual conclusion and you find yourself saying "aaaaaaaah i see now" With CCP, they had no proper build up or clues that would lead us to this point. Hence it makes it a farce and not an unexpected twist
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:41:00 - [94] Well I for one am going to give CCP the benefit of the doubt now! And I will be buying the book
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:45:00 - [95] Edited by: Becq Starforged on 13/06/2008 21:45:53 What have either Sarum or Khanid (or any other heirs) done to promote the interests of the Empire? Have they conquered anything at all? Clearly, Aralis should be declared heir to the newly made 'House Aralis', and should be made Emperor. Not only has he not broken succession law, he's expanded Amarrian control into another region.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:45:00 - [96] I'm not an amarrian RPer and thus am not too much into the amarrian PF and background. But I think I know how Hardin feels. (Some stuff about minnie RP follows, scroll down to skip it) The story leading to EA was awesome for us minnies. Seriously. Vote of no confidence in Midular, parliament dissolved, re-elections, government suddenly vanishes, what in space! We had the most intense RP session I had in a long time over this. Our characters getting a crisis over it, giving words of faith to each other - it was awesome. Seriosuly, absolutely awesome. And the possibilities were endless. Midular doing an awesome speech and everyone uniting behind her. Shakor taking power. Either one seizing power, ignoring the laws. Some third party winning mysteriously in the elections, or seizing power against laws. The Empire invading in our difficult times and the Fleet taking over power. So many possibilities. And then a mysterious Elder fleet shows up. "Hi! Didn't expect us? Your bad." Why thanks. Yet another deus ex machina, something pseudo-mysterious to replace awesome possibility of dark realistic stories. That really killed all the awesome atmosphere built up with the news stories. (End of minnie RP stuff) We're still hoping for a cool end in this. The story line can be saved. I think the same is true for the Amarr storyline. There are Lots of possibilities to save the arc that does not involve "stuff it, that's what we want." But in general, I think the main problem here is that a lot of us RPers love the EVE backstory because it's not an epic "Illuminati controlling everything and playing everyone against each other" type of story with five dei ex machinae per day, but because it's a dark place, with lots of "normal" stories interacting, and no one really being in control or to be blamed. I'm afraid the EVE story is moving away from that more and more. And that is sad.
Steph Wing Electro Fuels	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:53:00 - [97] Originally by: Terror Rising Surely raising from the dead and coming to save the day would be an easy concept thing for Amarrians to accept ... No? 10/10, nicely done.
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:12:00 - [98] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 22:12:54 Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 22:12:40 Originally by: Steph Wing Originally by: Terror Rising Surely raising from the dead and coming to save the day would be an easy concept thing for Amarrians to accept ... No? 10/10, nicely done. Utter fail. Drawing a parallel between christian and amarr faith, simply shows a lack of understanding on several very basic levels. 10/10 for a nice troll though :)
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:20:00 - [99] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 22:12:54 Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/06/2008 22:12:40 Originally by: Steph Wing Originally by: Terror Rising Surely raising from the dead and coming to save the day would be an easy concept thing for Amarrians to accept ... No? 10/10, nicely done. Utter fail. Drawing a parallel between christian and amarr faith, simply shows a lack of understanding on several very basic levels. 10/10 for a nice troll though :) So, are you trying to tell me that the Amarr are NOT descended from some Christian sect/group/whatever? Speaking of backstory, can the map please not have that marker saying that Black Rise is a big empty bit of nothingness anymore? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:26:00 - [100] Edited by: Victor Vision on 13/06/2008 22:26:44 Originally by: Hardin Well I for one am going to give CCP the benefit of the doubt now! And I will be buying the book Hardin, I was almost spooked by how much I agreed with your argumentation on this topic... ...up until the point where a CCP employee responded to the thread. You said earlier in the thread: "I just feel slight used that us RPers will end up having to buy a book to explain WTF is happening in a game which I already pay ú38 a month for!" - Hardin and "What I am 'whinging' about is ... Why should we have to buy a novel to get this explanation?" - Hardin Seems you suddenly changed your mind after the CCP dev post and now agree that it is OK to have to spend extra money to follow the main storyline? I can not agree at all. And I find the sudden change in mind of yours slightly worrying. Sorry. best regards, VV EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki

OutofSight United Space Republic Malice.	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:27:00 - [101] In a universe where people regulalry cheat death, your telling me this storyline is not at all believable? In times of War the law falls silent... OutofSight, OutofMind
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:27:00 - [102] Hate to troll......... But was this thread just a giant add for the book coming out?
Ki Tarra Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:31:00 - [103] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 13/06/2008 22:32:00 Originally by: Victor Vision ...stuff... Hardin will need to speak for himself, but I would guess that these two quotes had something to do with his newly refound patience: Originally by: CCP RyanD these boards will be full of spoilers for people who can't get it immediately. Originally by: CCP RyanD The question of her legitimacy will be a big one in the eyes of the Amarr and the Amarr roleplayers.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:38:00 - [104] Edited by: Victor Vision on 13/06/2008 22:38:28 Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Victor Vision ...stuff... Hardin will need to speak for himself, but I would guess that these two quotes ... You are right, Hardin will need to speak for himself. Usually I would not mind a player changing his mind so quickly after a dev post. But I am worried to see this kind of behaviour in a CSM delegate. Especially one I voted for. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:44:00 - [105] ammar time line Quote: 3805AD, The Conformists, a group within the unified catholic chruch, settles on Soekheviti yes you can draw a line.
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:59:00 - [106] Originally by: Hardin And I will be buying the book Step 5. Profit!
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:50:00 - [107] Edited by: Gaius Kador on 13/06/2008 23:53:45 As of now, CCP broke my RP back. Not buying the book for certain, Im a paying customer. Edit: Upheaval is allright, I understand, oh the drama, but im going to throw all my toys out and waaaaaagh unless the plot is revealed by CCP in game. Until then I can wait, like im used to. ----------------------------------------------
Hurs Sokira Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:50:00 - [108] Originally by: Hardin I shall of course seek out Ginger/Tony Gonzales next week and waterboard them until I get an explanation j/k Please feel free to waterboard them on behalf of Caldari RPers as well. Tibus Heth and the whole Caldari "lol space-***" storyline is just as bad and unbelievable from our perspective as Sarum one for Amarr. Simple explanation is not enough, actions are necessary. In response to a massive amount of criticism, Ginger has claimed that they have "highest standards for their writing". They better start rising those standards back quickly. It appears that people who are reading* the stories care about their quality much more than the people who are writing them.
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:51:00 - [109] Originally by: Gaius Kador Im a paying customer. OH WOW!!! Isn't that like being on the board of directors or something? Because it sure sounds like it gives you a crap ton of authority. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:54:00 - [110] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Gaius Kador Im a paying customer. OH WOW!!! Isn't that like being on the board of directors or something? Because it sure sounds like it gives you a crap ton of authority. Your e-peen just got bigger. ----------------------------------------------

An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:59:00 - [111] Ok? Was that your attempt at a non-sequitor? Because I gotta tell you, that comic strip was never funny. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Flamehaze Shana	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:01:00 - [112] Originally by: Danae Melios Edited by: Danae Melios on 13/06/2008 20:17:19..Tibus Heth suddenly going from common laborer to CEO of megacorporations and now ruler of all of Caldari forces? ..The Elders were supposed to be dead, but managed to knock CONCORD out and run all over the Mandate and Empire... I suspect that Sarum is being aided by the same group that enabled Heth's rise to power... I can demystify all this with four simple words. What do you want?
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:05:00 - [113] Originally by: Hurs Sokira Originally by: Hardin I shall of course seek out Ginger/Tony Gonzales next week and waterboard them until I get an explanation j/k Please feel free to waterboard them on behalf of Caldari RPers as well. Tibus Heth and the whole Caldari "lol space-***" storyline is just as bad and unbelievable from our perspective as Sarum one for Amarr. Simple explanation is not enough, actions are necessary. In response to a massive amount of criticism, Ginger has claimed that they have "highest standards for their writing". They better start rising those standards back quickly. It appears that people who are reading* the stories care about their quality much more than the people who are writing them. Wait what's unbelievable about a worker staging a successful uprising and playing on the problems he KNOWS exists for the masses? There are questions to answer on that but as soon as Heth got popular and CalCon started to drop in stock, I could very, VERY easily see KK corp and/or others throwing some heavy financial backing to him to get him into that CEO position, and move him further up until he was on their level, tipping the balance of power to the patriot faction, and then Heth taking it further and using that new power to further assert himself. The Caldari government is basically a capitalist government, and Heth's small revolt success may have looked to be a golden goose for people further up the line. Heth is the top dog now, and that may not have been the backer's intent, but if anythig, I think CCP understates numbers in EVE. I mean, we have planet-wide riots, and the police only kill a few hundred people? Riots in a European country would have more deaths than that. Caldari Prime likly has a population in the billions. There should have been hundreds of thousands of possibly casulties, and MILLIONS from the Malkalken attack. If an Amarr Battleship has over 6000 crew (hands of a killer), then a Mothership alone would probably push 100,000 when fully staffed, and stations are bigger than most cities on earth. Losing a large chuck of one could cause a million deaths easily imo.
Hurs Sokira Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:07:00 - [114] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Its not like someone hacked the game and took over Sarum during downtime and changed this, this was planned. The point of massive amount of complaints is not that the storylines weren't planned. The point is that that the planning appears to be so poor and inconsistent with everything that was written by CCP before, that it does seem like someone hacked into CCP and highjacked everyone's RP and CCP's own Prime Fiction. Compare latest writings with the original background chronicles (those explain the technology and society in EVE). It is like looking at two different games, one for adults and another one for children. Yes, in the past there were little news and only few chronicles, but those chronicles painted much more consistent, complex, multifaceted universe, as compared to the present flood of over-dramatized but shallow and amateurish "pulp fiction".
Hurs Sokira Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:13:00 - [115] Edited by: Hurs Sokira on 14/06/2008 00:14:11 Originally by: Flamehaze Shana I can demystify all this with four simple words. What do you want? Don't even mention B5 in this context. Can you possibly imagine the storylines that JMS could have written using the complex background of EVE? The fact that CCP threw away so many opportunities for complex, B5-style storylines in favor of the current farce, THAT stings the most, THAT is the charge that CCP is guilty of. Just like for Gaius Kador, CCP completely broke my RP back as well.
Bartholomeus Crane Estrale Frontiers	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:16:00 - [116] Ha, you talk about unbelievable, we have our biggest peace advocate park a Nyx in a station! For years the old dude was advocating peace until his mouth foamed, and then, from one moment to the other, he fails to find the break pedal on a Gallente mothership? Give me a break, the whole FW storyline is impossible to RP. You want clues to the rise of the new Empress? Hell, the Gallente didn't have any clues what so ever for years. Clueless is an understatement when it comes to RP in EVE! -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Ki Tarra Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:22:00 - [117] Originally by: Victor Vision You are right, Hardin will need to speak for himself. Usually I would not mind a player changing his mind so quickly after a dev post. But I am worried to see this kind of behaviour in a CSM delegate. Especially one I voted for. I doubt he has so much changed his mind as he has accepted that he needs more information and that he will need to wait until he has it before persuing the issue further. I would say that is a good thing for a CSM rep.
Niko medes Dark Dominion	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:28:00 - [118] can only say Edheudanni? however you spell that damn races name.. --------------------------------------
Pezzle Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:36:00 - [119] I can deal with hokey or improbable plots as long as they are fleshed out in such a way that engages interest. What we have here is a page or two being pulled out of every other chapter of a book. Now we are supposed to make sense of it. Right now we are supposed to react to it and make it a part of our experience. This is unacceptable. I should not have to purchase a book to understand the events transpiring right now in a game I am playing right now. Eve is not about the book sales. Eve is internet spaceships and the backstory of internet spaceships fighting each other. You want to write books about EVE, great! They should not be vital to the happenings in the game. I have no interest in the EVE book (no offense) much as I have no interest in WoW books or Mechwarrior books etc. This is a game that lives online, do not force another media upon us as essential in our understanding. The core of this game must be given life through this site or in the game itself, not in a novel that is not yet available! All of that accounted for, I am perfectly capable of playing this game without the need for those increasingly rare breadcrumbs. We shall see if game activity can actually attract the attention of the powers that be.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:42:00 - [120] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf > The flesh of the divine cannot be cloned, so Jamyl should not be Empress. What if the "person" who was noticed executing the ritual suicide WAS a clone, and the Jamyl we see now is the original one ? There could be several other similarly possible explanations, not all quite appeasing, but still. Quote: > The president of the Federation may serve only a single term so Foiritan should not be president. Awww, come on, this is straight out of Star Wars III... emergency powers and such things Quote: > The CEP has a firm and established system based on tradition and meritocracy, so Tibus Heth should not be the dictator of the State. Well, it's also a slightly militaristic and honour-based society, so a sci-fi style revival of some sort of Shogunate is not completely out of the question. Quote: The Republic is headless so escapes criticism for now. As we've been lead to understand, they pretty much decapitated themselves anyway. All in all, it's the story of betrayal "for the good of the country", strong-willed individuals stooping to just about anything to get their way, and last but not least the thirst for absolute power. Not the best plot twists, but pretty believable... afterall, they're still only human. _ Vote on issue of mineral and moon material balance !

Shaikar PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:51:00 - [121] Edited by: Shaikar on 14/06/2008 00:52:37 Originally by: Pezzle I should not have to purchase a book to understand the events transpiring right now in a game I am playing right now. Eve is not about the book sales. Eve is internet spaceships and the backstory of internet spaceships fighting each other. You want to write books about EVE, great! They should not be vital to the happenings in the game. I have no interest in the EVE book (no offense) much as I have no interest in WoW books or Mechwarrior books etc. This is a game that lives online, do not force another media upon us as essential in our understanding. The core of this game must be given life through this site or in the game itself, not in a novel that is not yet available! That is actually my sole real concern here. If I have to buy a book to figure out what is going on in game then you've done it wrong. The book should be an extra, an addon that gives the gory secret details no one would know IC, for example be from the perspective from the main characters. What is should not be though is needed to figure out the basics of what is going on. It may be a lot more news that will explain things is coming, if so, great. I'm willing to wait, after all there is no reason for everything to be explained in one go. Explaining the basics over time is fine, as long as it is done. I'm not willing to buy a book just to find out this basic knowledge though, that smacks of milking the cash cow so hard you're leaving friction burns.
Hurs Sokira Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:10:00 - [122] Originally by: Pezzle This is unacceptable. I should not have to purchase a book to understand the events transpiring right now in a game I am playing right now. Eve is not about the book sales. Eve is internet spaceships and the backstory of internet spaceships fighting each other. What is ironic is that CCP appeared to shoot itself in the foot not once, but twice. First, they released "hokey" and "improbable" plot storylines as newsitems and let people to get an idea of quality and believability of those very same storylines in the book. Suffice it to say, judging from the reaction, people that planned to buy the book now will not do so. Secondly, by discarding established background by introducing "fresh and exciting", overly dramatic (and completely unnecessary) massive changes in political landscape, they also alienated large portion of in-game community, those who got engaged into background story of EVE and represent perhaps most loyal subscribers. I somehow doubt that the "quality" of the new "style" will attract many new long-term customers to compensate for the amount of long-term players that quit or suspended subscription.
So SuiMe Entropy Systems Mining Co. Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:38:00 - [123] So CCP have stuffed over the RP'ers and gone their own way as usual. Why are you people surprised at this ? Just have a look at what they did to the RP alliances in FW. It will all die down to nothing soon once they have finished the planned story arcs, and we'll have another 2 year drought of no storylines at all.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:44:00 - [124] You are a gross trekkie, Hardin. Let me explain to you why you are angry. You are angry because you think prime fiction is something to be set in stone, and never changed. You are angry because according to prime fiction, the only way to elect an emperor is to go through the whole silly succession ritual where four out of five candidates gotta commit suicide. You are angry because this is suddenly not what is happening. You expected another succession ritual like the last one, but the CCP story staff threw you a curve ball by making something different happen, that you weren't anticipating. Well, in this case the fiction reflects real world history. Consider royal bloodlines, we've had those in the medieval ages and such - the only way you could become king is by being born into the bloodline. Then people figured out that if you killed every member of the bloodline, they could get to be kings! Whoa, that's going against tradition... but, it happened. Kings have faked death, gone into hiding, they have re-emerged with fresh armies, that sort of stuff. It's entirely plausible that the Jamyl NPC faked her death or cloned or whatever, but you're ****ed off because you can't just let yourself enjoy the story. You're coming off like a trekkie that has a geekout seizure if Captain Picard's neck rank thingies are on the wrong side of his space-uniform collar in scene 46 of episode 252 or whatever. Relax, step away from the forum ;\
Yakov Draken Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:55:00 - [125] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 14/06/2008 01:57:14 Wow great thread! The amarr thrown into confusion and ideological turmoil by recent events and forced to either question their deeply held beliefs or stick their heads in the sand and complain it doesn't make sense. If you had all stuck in character this would be great roleplay as well. So you foundations are shaken and your deepest held beliefs are being challenged - you didn't see this coming? It has been pregnant in the storyline awhile now and I can only assume you missed it because of your traditionalist, narrow minded, amarrian perspective. CVA and PIE are suffering some heavy blows ideologically right now as they represent the traditionalist branch of Amarr society that is threatening to fracture under immense pressure. Revolts, invasion, internal dissent, for along time no emperor - it is a mess. In game events are clearly showing that the tradiitonalist amarr approach is nothing more than long winded self justification for their failing social order - it is all made up mumbo jumbo. There is no god in heaven and no devil in hell. Did you really believe otherwise?
Arderich Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen A.R.K.	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:07:00 - [126] Quote: Like the good gardeners they are, I expect the story team will prune where needed, weed when necessary, and replant if required for growth. The gardener is always the murderer. In this case the murderer of the once so excellent background concept. I think there will be a lot of explanations needed. I am not saying this can not be sorted. Probably the answers are already in the book but I will not buy the book after the 'questionable' stuff I have seen so far. Maybe one day if others tell me it is good and worth reading. This a very unfortunate way to promote the novel. You should have come with some quality stuff as a teaser instead of this wild clutter. I hope to see some explanations soon - in game.
Khanid ll	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:15:00 - [127] Originally by: Niko medes can only say Edheudanni? When it turns out to be the Enheduanni, you, my friend, are going to look like a prophet! CCP has said, nothing is as it seems.
Pezzle Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:24:00 - [128] This is not a matter of trekky or some ideological break in the Empire for us so much as it is akin to something else. For those in the US it would be like waking up at the end of our current election cycle and finding out Abraham Lincoln was President. It confuses us because there has been no linking of here to there. We have no records, no background, no substance to weave our garments from. And if Lincoln were President again at the end of this year those who lived through the time would not need to buy books not yet available to know it were true or appreciate the experience.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:31:00 - [129] Luckily i dont care about RP - its just a minor annoyance. I will say though that the 'plot' over the downtime was pretty bloody hackneyd. * OH MY GOD THERES A HUGE FLEET KILLING EVERYONE 12 hours later * OH MY GOD THEVE BEEN BEATEN BACK TO EXACTLY WHERE THEY STARTED Also im not suprised in the slightest at CCP ramming storlylines down the RP communitys neck. After all as we are told many times. ITS CPC's GAME.... NOT OURS SKUNK
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:31:00 - [130] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu You are a gross trekkie, Hardin. Let me explain to you why you are angry. You are angry because you think prime fiction is something to be set in stone, and never changed. You are angry because according to prime fiction, the only way to elect an emperor is to go through the whole silly succession ritual where four out of five candidates gotta commit suicide. And you seem to be completly reading this thread selectively. That is not why he, and many others are **ed off. He and many others are *ed off for a number of reasons; because exceptionally important pieces of the game story are not being revealed in game, because the ramp up for the book is breaking the rules. Lets assume for moment that there are inconsistencies with the storyline - do you really believe most of the RPing community would fight to keep the 'problem bits'* around? No, they would be the first ones to advocate a clean up as evidenced in this thread. Here are just some of the inconsistencies. 1. Heirs that do not commit suicide are booted out of the Empire as heretics in disgrace 2. Heirs that do not commit suicide are made Empresses 3. Emperor is selected by trial 4. Emperor is acclaimed by co-competitors 5. All Heirs not selected die 6. All Heirs not selected live etc etc etc. This is hard to accept. Perhaps we have to wait for the book ... Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu You are angry because this is suddenly not what is happening. You expected another succession ritual like the last one, but the CCP story staff threw you a curve ball by making something different happen, that you weren't anticipating. True, most of the Amarrian role players wait for the ritual. However, if no ritual happens, shouldn't the lead up to that story, suspend disbelief by the community that is paying attention to these things. So far, this storyline is not believable. Perhaps we wait for the book ... Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu It's entirely plausible that the Jamyl NPC faked her death or cloned or whatever, but you're **ed off because you can't just let yourself enjoy the story. All very reasonable. But how about the fact Khanid II did not fake his death! He needs no excuse. He refused to die because he saw himself as God's annointed, and the heir of a royal Amarrian house. If he still lives in exile as a loyal Amarrian, all of Lady Sarums excuses in the world, believable as they are, are in consistent with other story lines. You completely don't get why people are **ed off, and I suggest you read more of the thread before jumping in. (Just a suggestion)

Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:40:00 - [131] Originally by: Jove X And you seem to be completly reading this thread selectively. That is not why he, and many others are **ed off. He and many others are **ed off for a number of reasons; because exceptionally important pieces of the game story are not being revealed in game, because the ramp up for the book is breaking the rules. Only one coming up with "rules" is you.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:48:00 - [132] Wow - quick skim through this thread reveals Roleplay suffers from exactly the same problems as all other threads in the forums. Namely the presence of MASSIVE FANBOIS who are so far up CCPS ass that CCP could institute a "even day - odd day" undock pass to all pilot to combat lag in jita, and the fanbois would STILL be telling ccp how ingenious they are. SKUNK
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:48:00 - [133] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Only one coming up with "rules" is you. Brilliant counter argument! Didn't see that one coming. Can't possibly reason at your level.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:05:00 - [134] Originally by: Jove X Brilliant counter argument! Didn't see that one coming. Can't possibly reason at your level. No, I guess you really, really can't. I mean, if you could, you'd see how stupid your argument is. You're arguing for the plausibility of a fictional scenario. That's kind of like reading Alice in Wonderland and being terribly offended because there's no such thing as mushrooms that make you grow big in the real world. Why can't you just enjoy the story without nitpicking every detail like some kind of neurotic?
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:11:00 - [135] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Why can't you just enjoy the story without nitpicking every detail like some kind of neurotic? Call an ugly baby an ugly baby, I guess. It's a perfectly valid opinion, really. Has nothing to do with uber-geekdom or whatever. Folks complain about mechanics changes all the time. For people who care about prime fiction, it's much the same. I'm sure we'll all get over it and move on...but bad writing is bad writing. Obviously the book might "fix" things and provide a new perspective from which it will become "good" writing...but then you have the whole issue of "bad execution."
Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:11:00 - [136] Originally by: Garreck Call an ugly baby an ugly baby, I guess. It's a perfectly valid opinion, really. Has nothing to do with uber-geekdom or whatever. Folks complain about mechanics changes all the time. For people who care about prime fiction, it's much the same. I'm sure we'll all get over it and move on...but bad writing is bad writing. Obviously the book might "fix" things and provide a new perspective from which it will become "good" writing...but then you have the whole issue of "bad execution." No, I'm afraid it has everything to do with geekdom. As in, if you have a serious problem with this, you're a geek.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:15:00 - [137] Edited by: Garreck on 14/06/2008 03:14:50 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu No, I'm afraid it has everything to do with geekdom. As in, if you have a serious problem with this, you're a geek. What's funny is that we're arguing on an internet spaceships forum about the definition of a geek. Some of us don't like how CCP wrote and executed the story. We're expressing our displeasure. I'm not going to venture to tell you "why this makes you angry."
Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:17:00 - [138] Originally by: Garreck What's funny is that we're arguing on an internet spaceships forum about the definition of a geek. Some of us don't like how CCP wrote and executed the story. We're expressing our displeasure. I'm not going to venture to tell you "why this makes you angry." Hey, I'm just expressing my displeasure at what a total geek you are. I have the right to do that, don't I? ;\
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:18:00 - [139] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Hey, I'm just expressing my displeasure at what a total geek you are. I have the right to do that, don't I? ;\ Actually, yes.
Pezzle Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:28:00 - [140] Geek

Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:32:00 - [141] Originally by: Garreck Some of us don't like how CCP wrote and executed the story. We're expressing our displeasure. I'm not going to venture to tell you "why this makes you angry." Don't bother trying to stoop to his level of logic. I've left him thinking he's he's won me over. I suggest you do the same and spend your energy rationalizing with more constructive participants in this thread. If you don't feed the trolls they wonder away.
Hurs Sokira Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:34:00 - [142] Edited by: Hurs Sokira on 14/06/2008 03:35:24 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu You are a gross trekkie, Hardin. Oh, yes, someone is accused of being a trekkie and a geek in a forum dedicated to internet spaceships... I am sure Hardin is deeply insulted. But Star Trek analogy is interesting one. The inconsistencies in writing is not on the scale of Picard's rank insignia being on the wrong side. It is on the scale of Wesley Crusher overthrowing said Picard in a coup, becoming Supreme Emperor of Galactic Federation (and growing an evil goatee) and next week defeating Klingon Empire in a blitzkrieg. Would it be feasible in Sci-Fi Star Trek universe? Absolutely. Would it be good business decision for Paramount to approve such episode? Absolutely not. You want comparison with Star Trek? Fine. What happened to the franchise when writers and producers stopped caring about the quality of storylines and started chasing "wider, younger demographics" by introducing dramatic, but exceedingly more ludicsrous characters and storylines? Do we have current Star Trek franchise running on TV? No. Why? Because writing sucked. Special effects became much better, battles much more spectacular, ships shinier...(see the parallels?) But did ratings improve? No. People cared about quality of characters and storylines, not about quantity of explosions and endless space battles and "companion books" available in local bookstores. One would think that CCP, being a part of entertainment industry, would be aware of such pitfalls. Instead, they seem intent on following the well-worn path of every promising project that falls victim to creative mediocrity as a main cause of its demise.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:36:00 - [143] Originally by: Jove X Originally by: Garreck Some of us don't like how CCP wrote and executed the story. We're expressing our displeasure. I'm not going to venture to tell you "why this makes you angry." Don't bother trying to stoop to his level of logic. I've left him thinking he's he's won me over. I suggest you do the same and spend your energy rationalizing with more constructive participants in this thread. If you don't feed the trolls they wonder away. Holy crap, that's an awesome strategy. I mean, until you posted that, I totally thought I won.
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 04:10:00 - [144] It's like that time I bought a Choose Your Own Adventure book, and I picked one, and then the ending that I chose was a bad ending. HOW COULD THEY DO THAT TO ME WHEN I PAID MONIES FOR IT???!!!!!!!!!!??????????? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.14 08:48:00 - [145] If the Jamyl plot were transplanted into the real world, we'd have something along these lines: The war in Iraq takes a turn for the worse. Onoes! Mahdi Army paratroopers are landing in New York! George W Bush goes missing. Ronald Reagan takes his old desk in the Oval Office, says "You ain't seen nothin' yet" and nukes Basra. The only people to comment on this are Barack Obama and John McCain who say "Reagan for President!", even though he's ineligable. And dead. TBH, I've seen better plots in a Jeffrey Archer novel. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:13:00 - [146] Ronald Reagan Drops Giant Handbag on Basra IN ANOTHER REALLY DRAMATIC SOUNDING NEWS POST!!!!! SKUNK
Trolsk Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:25:00 - [147] You think the Caldari/Gallente storyline is better?
Hardin	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:02:00 - [148] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Relax, step away from the forum ;\ I already had :p And Victor Vision - I am not 100% happy - but will give CCP the benefit of doubt now they have actually communicated and semi-clarified that there is some logic behind this! ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Brother Welcome Icarus' Wings	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:10:00 - [149] Who could possibly care less? Go play an RP game. Or read a book.
Venomire GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:25:00 - [150] Originally by: Trolsk You think the Caldari/Gallente storyline is better? Maybe not, but Foiritan's recent address highlights a certain amount of anger on the Gallente part. He sounds a wee bit ticked.

Nuyan Zahedi PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:33:00 - [151] Actually. I'm possibly quite alright with the storyline. I also liked the CCP answers in here. I don't think news needs to explain everything. I like the vagueness and mystery in EVE, that you're often not sure what really happened and that's there much more going on in the background. It's the same in the real world (arguably on a smaller scale though), where if you read news-articles you often still don't know what - really - is going on and that it sometimes doesn't even make much sense. That the rise of Tibus Heth, the return of Jamyl Sarum and support for her from other Heirs doesn't make any sense to us, doesn't make it impossible. There's much more behind it of which the masses of EVE (including us capsuleers) will probably never know about. That CCP is using a novel to explain that to us players (behind the characters) is quite a sensible thing to do. What I'm more concerned about is that I really hope there aren't too much Jovians/Dark Jovians involved. And not too much 'unreal' mystical things with the Elders and Jamyl Sarum's attack on that Matari fleet. I would be rather disappointed if the main-characters behind Empyrean Age are somehow 'controlled' by Jovians. -- My blog
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:36:00 - [152] Originally by: Hugh Ruka It was also pointed somewhere else the the Minmatar Elders also died during the backstory some time ago with no clone backup. Yet they suddenly appeared again. However I do not follow the RP side of things, I just picked that up on the forums. Seems Jamyl Sarum is not the only zombie in the game ... The Elders were reported killed just before the Uprising. This would pre-date cloning technology outside the Jove Empire / Society / Spawning Pit. It could be that those were not the Elders and that there was indeed another Jove team at work that may have save them before the whole place went to hell (ref: Theodicy). Or indeed we may not be talking about the same Elders, it is a position as much as a person. Like the phrase "The King is dead, long live the King!". The Elders are surrounded with mystery, maybe they were somehow saved / cloned / revived by the Jove (Deus ex machina anyone?). Maybe they were reborn or reincarnated like an Intaki Dalai Llama. Maybe they are a new group of Elders risen to power who have been waiting just beyond the edge of the Great Wildlands for the right time to rise. Not quite the same as the Jamyl Sarum thing. There are still a host of reasons that could be behind all this. She faked her death. She was brought back by God (who is in fact the leader of a Dark Jove Cabal and the Amarr & Minmatar are just unwitting foot soldiers in a war far greater than they imagine). Perhaps the Empire is so desperate that they are after a leader that wins battles. After all the last major Imperial fleet action at Vak'Atioth didn't go too well. Join Kinda'Shujaa
Jacob Holland Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:52:00 - [153] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Hell, if you knew that you were going to have to commit ritual suicide in front of people you wouldn't give a toss about the purtity of your flesh, you would have 30 Jump Clones dotted all over 0.0 as there is nothing to lose. If the other Ritual Suiciders didn't do the same then they deserved to be bio-massed for stupidty. As a point, it should be impossible to do that - the image of the brain at the exact moment of death is (according to the backstory) all but impossible except in a pod. The slightest misalignment results in the destruction of the subject's cortex without a usable image. However, perhaps the angle is wrong? There is a chronicle which has someone's clone being used for an assassination without him being in it... By having someone else's brain in a copy of Sarum's body commit suicide she could maintain some level of deniability and survive the experience. Her flesh would remain pure (though there would certainly be theological arguments as to whether to have a copy taken was truly the heresy there). There is also the possibility that the parties behind this war, those who perhaps influenced Alexander Noir to kick the whole thing off, have worked something which makes it seem like a true ressurection... -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.14 11:01:00 - [154] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Holy crap, that's an awesome strategy. I mean, until you posted that, I totally thought I won. Congrats. You just won a 'I argued with a geek on the internet, went all emo on him and all I got was this stupid T-shirt' T-shirt.
Tradinea	Posted - 2008.06.14 11:16:00 - [155] Lol, RPer rage.
Daan Sai HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.06.14 12:04:00 - [156] Umm, why can't the Jamyl that ritually suicided have been a clone, and the reappeared one be the original that has been hiding out all along? The trick may have occurred long ago. The original Jamyl didn't want to upset the applecart, but was forced to act by the Elder's fleet.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.14 13:23:00 - [157] Originally by: Akita T post dissection Your responses are all valid (well, except for the part about the Gallente election) but your missing the point. People will accept almost anything with the right amount of PR honey applied, but there hasn't been any. The news simply reports that these things have happened, not how the public have been placated. Of course we can assume PR went on in the background, and this is why the empires aren't tearing themselves apart in civil war much as they should at this time. Problem is the capsuleers have been ignored when it comes to this PR even though many of us are deciding whether to fight for these leaders. CVA are left confused over Jamyl's sudden acceptance. Fourth District cannot abide Heth's sudden rise to power. This is a game that is designed around us, however it seems we are being firmly ignored to ensure the plot continues at the expected pace. I'd just like CCP to fill us in on some of the reasons why these things have happened. Many roleplayers need to be able to justify things from their characters point of view and they can't do so when such major changes take place with so little explanation. I can understand the need to accelerate the timeline, but now that things have settled down a little some news-stories to bring us up to speed on why these leaders are being accepted by their people would be most helpful. Yes, I'm buying the book, but mine and other peoples characters need to know how to react to these events now, not after the 19th. They also need to know when a piece of prime fiction is ret-conned and not be left to guess as to what is still true and what isn't. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:39:00 - [158] Istvaan, Won't you agree that CCP has been taking quite some liberties regarding their own storyline in recent events? Liberties wich are theirs to take. But still leave alot of people with a wierd feeling. I'm as curious as you as how this all came to be, but still feel a bit cheated.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 22:43:00 - [159] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=797431 Made a separate thread since not really talking about the Amarr issue anymore. :) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Zimarla Gradient	Posted - 2008.06.15 02:54:00 - [160] Originally by: CCP RyanD Of course they'll probably contort their work more than might be strictly necessary to avoid excessive retcons, but that's because I think they care as much about trying to be consistent with what has gone before as it is possible for them to be. I'd appreciate a halfway attempt at a retcon as opposed to not having any decent explanation. At least with a retcon, you get a reason. Right now, we have no reason whatsoever.

Tomahawk Bliss The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.15 04:20:00 - [161] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 15/06/2008 04:26:34 Originally by: fuze Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Holy crap, that's an awesome strategy. I mean, until you posted that, I totally thought I won. Congrats. You just won a 'I argued with a geek on the internet, went all emo on him and all I got was this stupid T-shirt' T-shirt.
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:34:00 - [162] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 15/06/2008 12:33:48 Quote: "On behalf of Yonis Ardishapur, Uriam Kador, Articio Kor-Azor and Catiz Tash-Murkon, we, the anointed Heirs of the Great Houses of the Empire, do hereby jointly and individually name and nominate Jamyl Sarum as our preferred heir to the Imperial Throne and pledge our undying fealty to her and her holy cause." Well chaps... you know what you have to do... then..
Ailen Jan	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:51:00 - [163] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 15/06/2008 12:33:48 Quote: "On behalf of Yonis Ardishapur, Uriam Kador, Articio Kor-Azor and Catiz Tash-Murkon, we, the anointed Heirs of the Great Houses of the Empire, do hereby jointly and individually name and nominate Jamyl Sarum as our preferred heir to the Imperial Throne and pledge our undying fealty to her and her holy cause." Well chaps... you know what you have to do... then.. /me goes around the heirs with a silver platter ladden with steak knifes.. happy suicide you idiots
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.16 00:37:00 - [164] Originally by: Niko medes can only say Edheudanni? however you spell that damn races name.. You're just going to do yourself a favor and forget that word. You'll thank me once you've done so.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.16 00:53:00 - [165] Originally by: Hurs Sokira Originally by: Pezzle This is unacceptable. I should not have to purchase a book to understand the events transpiring right now in a game I am playing right now. Eve is not about the book sales. Eve is internet spaceships and the backstory of internet spaceships fighting each other. What is ironic is that CCP appeared to shoot itself in the foot not once, but twice. First, they released "hokey" and "improbable" plot storylines as newsitems and let people to get an idea of quality and believability of those very same storylines in the book. Suffice it to say, judging from the reaction, people that planned to buy the book now will not do so. Secondly, by discarding established background by introducing "fresh and exciting", overly dramatic (and completely unnecessary) massive changes in political landscape, they also alienated large portion of in-game community, those who got engaged into background story of EVE and represent perhaps most loyal subscribers. I somehow doubt that the "quality" of the new "style" will attract many new long-term customers to compensate for the amount of long-term players that quit or suspended subscription. It's more that you and the others (yes I know CAIN's RP background and so forth sO I know what you and the others are likely going through) are unable to fathom how the State would let someone like Heth rise to power, without realizing several things: 1. You're a pod pilot. You're disconnected from the planetside populace as much as some blueblood born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Look at whats been going on in the State over the last weeks, months, years. 2. Revolts by workers had been happening, some of which were successful, others were not. Heth's was not only successful, but through some means, he gained legal standing power in the State's system due to it (CEO of CC). 3. Other than Otro, the CEOs of the megacorps were likely complete ******s to their workers, and saw Heth's rise as something they'd have to go along with, or risk their workers outright revolting on too large a scale to put down without a civil war breaking out. 4. Heth's popularity and ultra-patriotism would likely sit well with the patriot faction bigwigs, who are probably likely to be very extreme due to knowing their necks would never be on the frontlines. 5. Skillful planning involving Heth puts the patriot faction n the front as far as power balances go. Coupled with his crazy popularity among the people, Zainou, KK Corp and others put him 'in charge' and give him the clout needed to loom over the other megacorps and draw them into the patriot faction's way of doing things. 6. The only* person that had any chance in hell of cutting off Heth's rise to power and his love among the Caldari, Otro Gaurishi, was murdered at a peace summit he himself called with the Gallente, by a high ranking Gallente official. 7. Heth doesn't like the Gallente, or trust them, so he builds up the military via conscription, but that alone is not an act of war, the patriots in general favor a strong military force. 8. Elder fleet curb stomps CONCORD in Yulai, disabling their ability to act. Heth sees this as quite possibly the biggest opportunity that will ever exist to take back the Caldari homeworld, and does so. 9. The once small extreme-wing of the Patriot faction is likely growing now due to Heth's views, and that the impossible, taking back a stolen homeworld, has happened. Personally, I prefer that over the boring "lets hold hands and be friends" crap that simply existed in far too large a quantity in the State given the acts of the Gallente against them both in the past for the first war, and in recent weeks/months.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.16 00:59:00 - [166] Originally by: Rodj Blake If the Jamyl plot were transplanted into the real world, we'd have something along these lines: The war in Iraq takes a turn for the worse. Onoes! Mahdi Army paratroopers are landing in New York! George W Bush goes missing. Ronald Reagan takes his old desk in the Oval Office, says "You ain't seen nothin' yet" and nukes Basra. The only people to comment on this are Barack Obama and John McCain who say "Reagan for President!", even though he's ineligable. And dead. TBH, I've seen better plots in a Jeffrey Archer novel. And unless the Congress/SCOTUS stepped in and told zombie Jamyl Reagan they can't be president, guess what? We have a 3rd term Reagan president.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.16 01:02:00 - [167] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Originally by: Hugh Ruka It was also pointed somewhere else the the Minmatar Elders also died during the backstory some time ago with no clone backup. Yet they suddenly appeared again. However I do not follow the RP side of things, I just picked that up on the forums. Seems Jamyl Sarum is not the only zombie in the game ... The Elders were reported killed just before the Uprising. This would pre-date cloning technology outside the Jove Empire / Society / Spawning Pit. I only remember reading that some of the Elders were killed, not all of them. You are talking about Theodicy right? The same work that contains a race that is best deleted from memory?
Xenea	Posted - 2008.06.16 02:37:00 - [168] Originally by: Garreck If there was a previous precident for Amarrians just throwing so much tradition right out the window in such a short period of time, I don't think there would be such complaints. This isn't about the result: we can roleplay the result and that's fine. It'll be exciting. It's about how poor the introduction of this new plot is. In a matter of days we have Jamyl blow back into the picture and be endorsed as the new emperor by the heirs with almost no mention what-so-ever of anybody in a position of power wondering why she's alive in the first place and why she should be even considered for empress at all. Nope...we just skip right to "yay, our savior! take the throne!" The Moral Reforms happened in a very short period of time. There can only have been 3-4 Emperors elected since this time, as the purpose of the Reforms was to create a more stable succession process and ensure the loyalty of the Heirs with their very life. This 3-4 estimate includes Heidrean and Doriam. As to the current plot, I am equally baffled but naturally unconcerned -- I am a subject of His Majesty King Khanid II, respectful of Grand Master Horm, and distrustful of the Theology Council.
Zimarla Gradient	Posted - 2008.06.16 02:39:00 - [169] Originally by: Thorradin I only remember reading that some of the Elders were killed, not all of them. You are talking about Theodicy right? The same work that contains a race that is best deleted from memory? Unfortunately, since TonyG wrote Theodicy, we're probably going to see more of the same stupid stuff.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.16 02:48:00 - [170] Edited by: Eventy One on 16/06/2008 02:50:31 Originally by: Zimarla Unfortunately, since TonyG wrote Theodicy, we're probably going to see more of the same stupid stuff. I actually liked Theodicy quite a bit, therefore I like TonyG. The problem isn't TonyG. The problem is: What exactly is the framework for RPing? It should be the game itself as many have pointed out. TonyG and the other writers have to influence the story in game first and foremost. Novels and everything else is built around that framework rather than compete with it. But I suspect that the creative juices are flowing in CCP again, and the writers, and perhaps the company are mixing up what is the appropriate way developing the framework vs. telling a story. The framework is the game. All else is window dressing (largely incidental).

Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.06.16 03:22:00 - [171] My experience as a slave of 20 years under both Amarr and Caldar bastards has been that religious beliefs give way far to easily to selfish pragmatism. If you were the headless council of the Amarr empire, looking at a universe full of villains spoiling for a fight, then lo and behold here comes a hero of action - would you stick to your traditions and watch the whole Amarr empire go the way of the Atioth "invasion" fleet? Or would you consider that just this once it might be time to admit that perhaps the public competition for the throne wasn't such a good idea, and that Jamyl could have earned her way to the throne? All of you who are faithful followers of the Church, you poor sheep! You will quickly realise that the religious traditions set up by your empire have merely been scaffolding and crutches to support the weak. That scaffolding is about to be burned away in the fire of Matari vengeance. Do you know what you believe? Do you believe what you know?
Elektrea SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.16 04:50:00 - [172] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Clones Amarr nobility is not allowed to use clone technology. God's Flesh may not be copied. It's heresy. "Do as I say, not as I do" That quote, everyone uses in religion Happy HOur Minning and Industry
Tyrrax Thorrk Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.06.18 13:48:00 - [173] I'm disappointed in you Hardin, if you were present you'd know as well as I do about the Sarum forces that invaded the suicide ceremony, and then just left without really doing anything. Obviously a distraction to allow Jamyl to slip away off her battleship and aboard one of theirs. Were you afk during the ceremony or something ? Jamyl was never really dead, and frankly you're coming across as a bit of a gullible fool for not piecing all this together years ago. There's been plenty of hints in prime fiction over the years about Jamyl still being alive too...
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:53:00 - [174] Jamyl being alive can be seen as established (indeed it's been one of the favorite IC conspiracy theories among the Minnies for years :P). I still don't like the way CCP is making her Empress, however, without practically any loyalist opposition or squabbling about the procedure or anything. It feels like force-feeding it to the players, to be honest. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Ethaet Aliastra	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:06:00 - [175] Does anyone care? This is all RPer stuff and doersn't affect 98% of players in any way other than selling ships and modules to RPers. -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:17:00 - [176] Originally by: Ethaet Does anyone care? This is all RPer stuff and doersn't affect 98% of players in any way other than selling ships and modules to RPers. Considering that this thread has reached 6 pages, I'd say that very many people care. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Zanzaa	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:18:00 - [177] RP is the backbone of any MMO. RP & Fun. =============================== /me points at Mission runners. /me laughs. /me points.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:20:00 - [178] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk There's been plenty of hints in prime fiction over the years about Jamyl still being alive too... For the benefit of the newcomers to Eve PF, perhaps you'd care to provide links to some of these hints? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:21:00 - [179] Edited by: Major Death on 18/06/2008 15:23:50 My guess for the next headline, DEUS EX MACHINA STIKES AGAIN Take a tip from a long time GM/DM, players hate when they are forced down a story arc, especially if that arc tramples on existing characters and stories. O.O.C. I should also like to say that the current RP events are very unfair on Amarr RP'ers. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Arderich Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen A.R.K.	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:50:00 - [180] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk There's been plenty of hints in prime fiction over the years about Jamyl still being alive too... For the benefit of the newcomers to Eve PF, perhaps you'd care to provide links to some of these hints? hint This doesn't mean I like the way of her return.

Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.18 16:06:00 - [181] That's hardly "plenty" though Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Robert Rosenberg Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.06.18 16:30:00 - [182] I run a more cohesive game of D&D! CCP needs to hire authors that they pay money to, instead of these ISD fools (who have generally a high quality of work, but yeah this is ****)
Tyrrax Thorrk Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.06.18 17:10:00 - [183] That was one of the hints I had in mind, think there might've been some around Mirial's little banning fiasco, but not really sure and don't really care, it was the event itself where she was supposed to have died that removed any doubts I had. Much like Hardin I was invited to the event where the heirs suicided.. Deathwing managed to smuggle in fittings for his scorpion and almost managed to kill the new Emperor ;D Was quite glaringly obvious that Jamyl hadn't actually committed suicide, there was some ritual stuff she was supposed to say that she didn't and then her ship just blew up, conveniently right after her top Sarum military guys had crashed the party and made distracting threats, then left (and she with them I expect, or using them as distraction to make her seperate getaway) Security at that event was a complete joke as both Deathwing and the gatecrashing Sarum warparty showed, she didn't say the ritual suicide words and there's no reason to think she was on the ship when it blew up, now she takes advantage of the upheaval caused by the Minmatar to take the throne, she's just been biding her time for the perfect opportunity and now it's been provided. I don't see any reason to think clones were involved, then she would've just gone through the ceremony normally..
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:12:00 - [184] I was there too, albeit in alt form Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.18 19:12:00 - [185] For me it's not what has changed that irks me, it's the fact that we're left wondering why the people are eating it all up so happily. Sure, Jamyl Sarum's reappearance has been accepted by those on high, but why do the people, with their strong beliefs in tradition and less information than ourselves on the matter accept this? The same can be applied to Foiritan's re-election, Heth's rise to power, and even the return of the Elders. People do not just accept such huge changes, they wonder why constitutions and traditions are being ignored, they wonder if these returned figures are who they claim to be, they fear the effects these upheavals will have on their lives. They do not just go, "Oh look, universe just turned itself inside out. Lets go buy some drinks and celebrate." And neither do we, IC or OOC. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:06:00 - [186] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf For me it's not what has changed that irks me, it's the fact that we're left wondering why the people are eating it all up so happily. This. Originally by: Robert Rosenberg I run a more cohesive game of D&D! CCP needs to hire authors that they pay money to, instead of these ISD fools (who have generally a high quality of work, but yeah this is ****) The main storyline, and the Novel That Explains It All, is actually all paid work, not ISD. Yes, they are actually using money on it. No, that probably does not make you feel any better. The rare quality stories are mostly ISD, actually (and if I guess correctly, CCP Greyscale and a couple of other paid staff too, to be fair). But the most weirdo and sudden-change stuff is all by the official, paid ones. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Sable Keetch	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:18:00 - [187] Originally by: Winterblink This just in: Jamyl (pictured second from left) celebrating with the rest of her friends and advisors. http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/overheard/files/2007/10/zombies.jpg When asked about her abrupt return, she replied with a sullen, "braaaaiiins." I love this world.I know half of the people in that picture in RL.Yay! S.F. Yes I'm an alt so what?
Aeo IV Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:20:00 - [188] My discere for this novel has been dramatically falling over the past few weeks, even since I heard a part of it being read on the Dev livechat; it sound increadibly cheesy, and really stupid. Maybe it was just the guy's voice, he did have a thick accent. but it seemed to me it was probably not going to be a good novel. After that we had that announcement about the trailer being shown at the end of BSG, which is, in all honestly, a very Star Trek: ENT in terms of quality... And now we have this crappular new plot. I don't even know what to say. I'm not really sure how to sum up my feelings in a post, I really don't. You can't sell us a outhouse and say it's the Buckingham palace or something. In the same vein, you can't sell us a game, claim it's suppose to be realistic, and such, and then randomly insert supernatural happenings, or make plot holes. You can't just say, "oh what you saw was wrong" or "oh, she's a clone" because that's just a really stupid crop out, and you should be better then that. You can't randomly turn important people into crooks, or cultists, or whatever. I highly doubt I'll buy the book, I'm not sure I can stomach any more stuff like this right now.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:36:00 - [189] I have two broad, all encompassing statements to make about RP, the PF and all storylines in EVE. 1: This is not fantasy. No magic, divine influence or voodoo should wend it's way in to the story. EVE is not, and should not, be WoW-in-space, and that includes the storyline. 2: No Evil-Alien-Conspiracies. They're lame. They're the deus ex machina that most plagues sci-fi. We do not need to have some uber-powerful alien antagonist behind every plot in every science fiction. Plots should be built on the tapestry of existing characters and concepts, not some tacked on, external bad guy. If it turns out Jamyl, the Elders, that defecting Gallente admiral, or anyone else in the main plot arc is an alien agent, I'll be very upset. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Talsha Talamar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.06.19 00:09:00 - [190] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 19/06/2008 00:10:33 I think I just found the reason behind this whole recent development... The CCP storyline staff has been either tainted by the integration of White Wolf personal or their memes... Actually it would all make sense then... smells the fake sulfur and cheap patchouli in the air

Aralis Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.19 01:21:00 - [191] Hard to believe but I now miss the days when CCP ignored RP.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.19 10:25:00 - [192] Originally by: Patch86 2: No Evil-Alien-Conspiracies. They're lame. They're the deus ex machina that most plagues sci-fi. We do not need to have some uber-powerful alien antagonist behind every plot in every science fiction. Plots should be built on the tapestry of existing characters and concepts, not some tacked on, external bad guy. If it turns out Jamyl, the Elders, that defecting Gallente admiral, or anyone else in the main plot arc is an alien agent, I'll be very upset. Do Jovians, or dark so, count as alien? Cause if they do, I think it is time to be upset, based on the news how Malaetu Shakor, known to have spent some time with them before, comments on his being with the 'Elder Fleet' by "because I was called". Compare that to the beginning of Theodicy... I am sorry, I should probably stop being so pessimistic about this all, but seriously. If this keeps on going to this direction, there will be a post on CSM forums titled "[Issue] TonyG". -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Haverloth 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.06.19 11:46:00 - [193] My concern with this novel is that I fear it will be full of spaceships and deus-ex-machinas waxing their wrath mightily, etc, in an Epic Scale. As I mentioned in the other thread, EVE was always this cold, dark "real" universe. Now're it's full of mystical Eldars and Empress-super-weapons and Casts Of Thousands Dying as the Empire is taken over and rewon in a day... TBH I don't really want this, but it's CCP's game, and I (along with most of us, I feel) will adapt to the changes as best we can But it's still disappointing to those of us who have continually high hopes and expectations for EVE, especially us long-termers, to see some magical deus ex machina brought in to magically explain everything away... ____________________ http://1pg.vigilia-valeria.org http://www.amarr-empire.net
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.19 11:56:00 - [194] Originally by: Haverloth My concern with this novel is that I fear it will be full of spaceships and deus-ex-machinas waxing their wrath mightily, etc, in an Epic Scale. As I mentioned in the other thread, EVE was always this cold, dark "real" universe. Now're it's full of mystical Eldars and Empress-super-weapons and Casts Of Thousands Dying as the Empire is taken over and rewon in a day... TBH I don't really want this, but it's CCP's game, and I (along with most of us, I feel) will adapt to the changes as best we can But it's still disappointing to those of us who have continually high hopes and expectations for EVE, especially us long-termers, to see some magical deus ex machina brought in to magically explain everything away... Pretty much sums it up. Still I have to say I do like FW a great deal. Just whish there would have been a more "EVE like" story going with it. An EVE like reaction to the return of Lady Sarum would probably be to work against her and the house of Sarum. Maybe this hole mess could be fixed if CCP gave us a chance to kill her. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.19 12:12:00 - [195] To the above posters, yea, I too will definitely in the end adjust and play whatever is thrown at me. And yea, FW's been fun so far, the couple of operations I've been able to make it to. It's just I cannot help feeling there was such potential for Pure Awesomeness that was wasted by giving us a dumbed-down story Epic story instead of a more EVE-lie wone. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Haverloth 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.06.19 13:41:00 - [196] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 19/06/2008 13:01:48 It's just I cannot help feeling there was such potential for Pure Awesomeness that was wasted by giving us a dumbed-down story Epic story instead of a more EVE-like one. Indeed. On a personal level, I would have loved to see FW start with a broken Empire, with the Mataris occupying a large chunk of it, still leaderless and in shock, the Navy rallying as best as they could... seeing the map redrawn so that war took place right in the heartlands of the Alliance, a few jumps from Amarr, would have been fantastic. Would have given an excellent reversal to Matari and Amarr RP as well, Amarrians fighting to recover estates etc that were in Matari territory. When Jamyl returned and smashed the Eldar fleet I knew it would be a more-or-less return to status quo... though the Caldari Navy Titan outside Caldari Prime was pretty cool. ____________________ http://1pg.vigilia-valeria.org http://www.amarr-empire.net
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.19 18:42:00 - [197] Well, they did it to Matari too now - Shakor's rise to power would make an awesome story, except they seem to have wasted all the potential. It would be one of the major events in the Republic of past five years, but all the it being major and surprising and controversial was glossed over with a "so say we all". No debate, no surprised commentary, no nothing. Middy: "I dun like you, go away" Shakor: "I kill stuff" Middy: "K come back hoem" Shakor: "I r boss now k?" Everyone: "Pls rule us nao" Middy: "Kthxbai" Now, before someone misunderstands intentionally, no, I do not mind Shakor getting into power at all. It could be an awesome story, like I said. What I do not like is all the old tensions just being wiped udner the mat without as much as a comment. Such things should fade slowly, not be forgotten overnight. What crappy writing. The term "railroading" comes to mind. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Drauqhk Shathet Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.19 19:00:00 - [198] We are no longer participants, we are readers. Perhaps we should ignore CCP's input as much as they ignore ours. Create our own backstories that work to the same FW result and just agree that CCP's writers (do I really need to say which one at this point?) works will be treated as if they didn't exist. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Synapse Archae Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.06.20 02:39:00 - [199] Draughk, I think the point is that CCP is NOT overwriting earlier fiction. The problem is the gap in fiction that occurs with the Empyrian age patch is quite large and can't possibly be covered ingame or by ingame news. Thus, the book. No one is happy having to buy a book to understand what's going on, but I'm with Hardin for giving them a chance to proove that the storyline is not in fact broken as it appears to be, but is just missing a big middle segment. I will be buying the book. Then again I already printed out all the previous fiction... - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Drea Archae Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.06.20 02:51:00 - [200] Maybe I can sum up what happened as far as I can tell. This all follows from existing prime fiction, I'm just filling in the obvious reactions people must have, showing that they had no other choice is whats missing from the fiction currently, IMO. jamyl and the minmatar elders(strackmanir at least), are supposed to be dead. One day they show up, and the Elders are the first to show, at the head of an unstoppabble fleet, that first destroys DED headquarters, and then proceeds to wipe the floor with amarrian defences all the way into the amarrian core systems. The amarrian empire has it's back against the wall, and it's about to start losing planets to this ghost Minmatar fleet. Jamyl(or someone just like her) shows up with a superweapon she guarantees will turn the tide. The Amarrians have no other viable options, and let her use it. It works to devastating effect. This has 2 effects. First the Minmatar fleet breaks and retreats full speed, second the amarrians realize this "new" Jamyl could destroy anything they put against her, so long as she has that weapon. For now they have no choice but to co-opt her by offering the vacant throne of amarr, while they try to unravel who she is and if they can do away with her as a heretic without risking total anihallation by that or some other superweapon. The amarrians would have no choice but to react like that. I just wish the fiction were more clear. This would make a great subject for the latest chronicle (discussion between holders on WTF to do about Jamyl) but instead we get Chamberlain Karsoth (recently disappeared anyway) and his ties to the Blood Raiders. So far the latter story has nothing to do with Emp. Age, so I'm a little dissappointed.

Silver Night Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:06:00 - [201] Edited by: Silver Night on 20/06/2008 03:13:18 Edited by: Silver Night on 20/06/2008 03:08:14 So far Karsoth's BR tie is one of the best parts of this tbh. Cause it doesn't feel like contrived BS and hastily plugged in 'standard plot device' tripe. The rest of this kinda does. Maybe it isn't, but it sure feels that way. On all 4 fronts (though Noir at least might have a legit explaination I suppose) I sure hope I read the book and feel like a jackass for not getting how CCP was actually sticking to the cold, hard, real spirit of eve this whole time. I'm not hopeful though. I've the impression it is an influence from perhaps TonyG (having read his previous work) and from what I've been told White Wolf as well. The Elders seem to ring a lot of bells for some peopel I ahve talked to familiar with their past work. Edit: Look at the Angel Cartel infiltration of State corporations for what an eve story should involve. Cloak and Dagger stuff in high finance. Shell corporations. Dirty money laundered. That is all very Eve in my eyes, and after 6 years I hope I have a feel for Eve. The sad part is that the goal in a FW storyline could have been achieved with really awesome stories that actually made sense and fit. Edit2: It just occurred to me. The phrase Power Struggles. Power struggles should have taken place in all these situations and didn't. Eve is essentially, at a basic level, about power struggles. In each case the empire in question pretty much rolled over. Maybe this is because what we are seeing is just the news, which doesn't show what happened behind closed doors. Maybe all is really explained in the Novel. If it is, well, fair enough. It is still BS to make us buy a book to find out the story in a game we already pay for - but CCP is a for profit corporation so that at least is very Eve. -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:14:00 - [202] Originally by: Patch86 2: No Evil-Alien-Conspiracies. They're lame. They're the deus ex machina that most plagues sci-fi. We do not need to have some uber-powerful alien antagonist behind every plot in every science fiction. Closing the door after the horse has bolted, tipped over the kerosene lamp, set the straw ablaze and burnt down the barn, I'm afraid. You have read Theodicy haven't you? Brace yourself, because EVE is space opera writ large: mysticism, evil mind-bending space aliens, secret superweapons, trust of enemies, betrayal of friends, sleeper agents, miracles ... the list goes on.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.20 08:41:00 - [203] When reading the newest article about Shakor has been named as presidential candidate and that (again) he would have no competitors for the position I simply had to slap my forehead. Wth is wrong with these people? Heth rose to the top with no serious opposition, now both Jamyl Sarum and Shakor are doing the exact same. These are positions of immense power and nobody seems to be really interested in bidding in for the chair. Granted, they might not get the position, but at least they can try. Where has all the internal power struggles and backstabbing gone which made the lore great? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Mori Felding Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:42:00 - [204] Edited by: Mori Felding on 20/06/2008 14:42:36 Quote: Where has all the internal power struggles and backstabbing gone which made the lore great? I guess they failed their reality check along with everyone & everything else when the abaddon killed the titan and fleet in one shot as seen in the trailer. ___ Memento Mori
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.21 08:36:00 - [205] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 21/06/2008 08:36:38 Originally by: Jowen Datloran Where has all the internal power struggles and backstabbing gone which made the lore great? I was told CSM stuff is over or so, but still can't hurt I guess: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=801709
Edward Price Vengance Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.21 09:32:00 - [206] Sigh... retcons. One aspect of EVE that really fascinates me is the RP. (Although I have not gotten into it yet.) Main reason for this is how it is to identify with the characters and the world. This is maybe where we could be in a couple millenniums. Retcons, as whole leaves a bad taste in your mouth. A prime example for this is WoW. I never participated in RP while playing WoW as I just found it very hard to identify with my character and the world, but I am a great fan of WoW lore as it is a brilliant story - until the retcons. I was quite upset with the changes made in the Burning Crusade expac. At first, it wasn't much of an issue, but upon the addition of the Black Temple, I was disappointed. The reason for this is simple. The manner in which Ilidan meets his end is truly, in my opinion, a poor turn for devs to have taken with regards to the lore. Ilidan goes mad and he must be slain. Fair enough, he was mad to start with, but the fact that he is slain in the end by Maiev Shadowsong is just too much. She was supposed to be dead, but miraculously risen from the dead, instead imprisoned by Ilidan. I also feel many people who followed the lore will agree that Maiev was one their least favourite charcters in WoW and actually would have sided with Ilidan against the wench. In the event where you defeat Ilidan, she provides the coup de gras. I know of many that were not happy by this, but Blizzard did their little lore retcon two step and the rest is history. Now, this may not be a very good comparison to the past two weeks events, but I feel there are some similarities to be found. I just hope CCP will have a very plausible explanation to this and that they do not fall into the trap of changing lore at will. Players identify with lore and it is the foundation of their RP. Less retcon, better story telling. My 0.2isk.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.21 14:19:00 - [207] Originally by: Jowen Datloran When reading the newest article about Shakor has been named as presidential candidate and that (again) he would have no competitors for the position I simply had to slap my forehead. Wth is wrong with these people? Heth rose to the top with no serious opposition, now both Jamyl Sarum and Shakor are doing the exact same. These are positions of immense power and nobody seems to be really interested in bidding in for the chair. Granted, they might not get the position, but at least they can try. Where has all the internal power struggles and backstabbing gone which made the lore great? Most nations tend to be pretty united when it comes to a large war or a strong hated common enemy.
ani mkII anitech	Posted - 2008.06.21 17:33:00 - [208] The novel does indeed acknowledge what should have happened to Jamyl Sarum at the suicide ceremony (p29/30), and without saying anything to spoil, Tyrrax has been spot-on, as always.
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.06.21 17:46:00 - [209] Well, to be honest when someone returns from the dead and one shots a hostile fleet which has been rampaging around your space, i don't think you are going to argue with her. Her turning up at all isn't really out of the question either with all the "lost" technology lieing around. The possibilities are endless to be honest, but i am going to guess its some evil imposter, who now they have saved the empire, is in a position to steer the empire to war. The mysterious return of the minmatar elders is probably the same thing tbh. Its all a conspiracy i tell you.
Xerxes X	Posted - 2008.06.21 18:15:00 - [210] Hardin, I was also around at the time of Jamyl Sarum's demise - however I do not know how we (at Oracle) could see this resurrection happening and you could not... Perhaps it was Oracle-by-name and Oracle-by-nature, but I and others (Makar being one of them) suspected that Jamyl demised-herself too easily and had a clone awaiting her. Perhaps the truth will be even stranger... Xerxes X

Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.22 18:31:00 - [211] Finished the book: No Enheduanni No Jovian manipulation It all makes... reasonable sense. Let's just hope the coming news clears things up for those in the dark. I would add however that CCP could have thought ahead a little and avoided our concerns by just clearing up why the people have accepted these changes as well as they have. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
DeadDuck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.22 18:41:00 - [212] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Finished the book: No Enheduanni No Jovian manipulation It all makes... reasonable sense. Let's just hope the coming news clears things up for those in the dark. I would add however that CCP could have thought ahead a little and avoided our concerns by just clearing up why the people have accepted these changes as well as they have. Does the book explains what weapon was the one used in sarum prime system ? ________________ God is my Wingman
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.22 19:16:00 - [213] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/06/2008 19:16:22 Yes it does. *SPOILERS* The weapon is of Terran origin and was retrieved from wrecks near the EVE gate that are usually kept hidden by the Jovians. The weapon has been reverse engineered but the fuel (isogen-5) can only be safely harvested by certain Rogue Drones. *SPOILERS* Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.22 22:37:00 - [214] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Let's just hope the coming news clears things up for those in the dark. I would add however that CCP could have thought ahead a little and avoided our concerns by just clearing up why the people have accepted these changes as well as they have. I still kind of hope they will clear that up soon-ish; it's a bit difficult to play when you don't know what things you should be surprised about and what are general knowledge. :) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.08.17 17:49:00 - [215] its not like we have clones in eve Trashed sig, Shark was here


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