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[Issue] Risk/reward of empire

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Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 18:50:00 - [271] Originally by: oilio Bad idea. Thumbs down. Not supported. If you're gonna buff lowsec and nullsec then fine. If you nerf high sec, then Eve loses lots of subscribers - bad for game development and bad for the future of Eve. Yeah you're right, if there's one thing this game needs, it's to maintain - and increase, amirite? - the numbers of people in it who threaten to ragequit if their unfair advantage is threatened. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:26:00 - [272] I support discussing this poorly thought-out idea. What is the problem you are trying to solve? Oh that's right, there is no problem, you're GoonFleet and thus your only objective is to grief other players either through combat or through petitioning for needless changes to the game mechanics. As a mission-runner who occasionally engages in PvP, I can tell you that what I'd like to see is mission agents becoming lower quality and running out of missions as they're used more. This would encourage people to spread out from mission-running hubs, reducing lag and providing more opportunities for meeting new people. Risk/reward shouldn't apply to grindfests. The RP reason for this is that mission-running and mining are jobs, where you have a stable, low level income in return for grinding away at the same tasks over and over again for days on end. If you think mission-running is too high a reward for the risk involved, why don't you go do some ninja salvaging? Or why not start calling for a nerf to trading and hauling? I just made 20M ISK while AFK, hauling minerals back and forth across empire space. You guys in 0.0 space have so many cool ways of making money - why are you worried about the millions that mission-runners are making when you are pulling in billions? OP is GoonFleet, therefore is a dedicated griefer. This suggestion is simply a means of griefing by metagaming.
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.24 21:05:00 - [273] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: oilio Bad idea. Thumbs down. Not supported. If you're gonna buff lowsec and nullsec then fine. If you nerf high sec, then Eve loses lots of subscribers - bad for game development and bad for the future of Eve. Yeah you're right, if there's one thing this game needs, it's to maintain - and increase, amirite? - the numbers of people in it who threaten to ragequit if their unfair advantage is threatened. I'm not talking about ragequitters. You can't do anything about ragequitters. I also dispute this "unfair advantage" that you're talking about. Advantage over who? If I run L4 missions in high sec, how do I have any advantage over... everyone else in the game who can run L4 missions in high sec? Do you mean advantage over those who don't like doing missions? In that case, miners have a distinct advantage over me, because I don't like mining.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 08:00:00 - [274] Originally by: oilio I also dispute this "unfair advantage" that you're talking about. Advantage over who? If I run L4 missions in high sec, how do I have any advantage over... everyone else in the game who can run L4 missions in high sec? Do you mean advantage over those who don't like doing missions? In that case, miners have a distinct advantage over me, because I don't like mining. You mean sort of like how everyone who flies nano ships don't really have an unfair advantage because all the other people can also fly nanos. Or how suicide gankers don't really have an unfair advantage because everyone can suicide gank. Or how people who used to farm broken complexes didn't really have an unfair advantage, because everyone could farm those complexes. Yeah, great argument there.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:14:00 - [275] Originally by: oilio Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: oilio Bad idea. Thumbs down. Not supported. If you're gonna buff lowsec and nullsec then fine. If you nerf high sec, then Eve loses lots of subscribers - bad for game development and bad for the future of Eve. Yeah you're right, if there's one thing this game needs, it's to maintain - and increase, amirite? - the numbers of people in it who threaten to ragequit if their unfair advantage is threatened. I'm not talking about ragequitters. You can't do anything about ragequitters. I also dispute this "unfair advantage" that you're talking about. Advantage over who? If I run L4 missions in high sec, how do I have any advantage over... everyone else in the game who can run L4 missions in high sec? Do you mean advantage over those who don't like doing missions? In that case, miners have a distinct advantage over me, because I don't like mining. So your argument is that: mission running isn't unbalanced, because it's balanced with mission-running. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:14:00 - [276] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: oilio I also dispute this "unfair advantage" that you're talking about. Advantage over who? If I run L4 missions in high sec, how do I have any advantage over... everyone else in the game who can run L4 missions in high sec? Do you mean advantage over those who don't like doing missions? In that case, miners have a distinct advantage over me, because I don't like mining. You mean sort of like how everyone who flies nano ships don't really have an unfair advantage because all the other people can also fly nanos. Or how suicide gankers don't really have an unfair advantage because everyone can suicide gank. Or how people who used to farm broken complexes didn't really have an unfair advantage, because everyone could farm those complexes. Yeah, great argument there. Nano - CCP calls this a broken mechanic Insurance for Suicide Gank - CCP calls this a broken mechanic Broken Complex - Kind of obvious, from your description... So, what is your point?
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:18:00 - [277] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: oilio I also dispute this "unfair advantage" that you're talking about. Advantage over who? If I run L4 missions in high sec, how do I have any advantage over... everyone else in the game who can run L4 missions in high sec? Do you mean advantage over those who don't like doing missions? In that case, miners have a distinct advantage over me, because I don't like mining. You mean sort of like how everyone who flies nano ships don't really have an unfair advantage because all the other people can also fly nanos. Or how suicide gankers don't really have an unfair advantage because everyone can suicide gank. Or how people who used to farm broken complexes didn't really have an unfair advantage, because everyone could farm those complexes. Yeah, great argument there. Nano - CCP calls this a broken mechanic Insurance for Suicide Gank - CCP calls this a broken mechanic Broken Complex - Kind of obvious, from your description... So, what is your point? That hi-sec mission running is also a broken mechanic at least as in need of fixing as the above. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:28:00 - [278] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: oilio I also dispute this "unfair advantage" that you're talking about. Advantage over who? If I run L4 missions in high sec, how do I have any advantage over... everyone else in the game who can run L4 missions in high sec? Do you mean advantage over those who don't like doing missions? In that case, miners have a distinct advantage over me, because I don't like mining. You mean sort of like how everyone who flies nano ships don't really have an unfair advantage because all the other people can also fly nanos. Or how suicide gankers don't really have an unfair advantage because everyone can suicide gank. Or how people who used to farm broken complexes didn't really have an unfair advantage, because everyone could farm those complexes. Yeah, great argument there. Nano - CCP calls this a broken mechanic Insurance for Suicide Gank - CCP calls this a broken mechanic Broken Complex - Kind of obvious, from your description... So, what is your point? That hi-sec mission running is also a broken mechanic at least as in need of fixing as the above. I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. If CCP feels that hi-sec missions are a broken game mechanic, they will and should, of course, fix them.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:53:00 - [279] Originally by: Karii Ildarian I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. If CCP feels that hi-sec missions are a broken game mechanic, they will and should, of course, fix them. And, in order to get CCP to say that high sec missions are a broken game mechanic, it takes a lot of whining on the forums. We're just doing what is traditionally done to get changes in the game.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:12:00 - [280] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Karii Ildarian I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. If CCP feels that hi-sec missions are a broken game mechanic, they will and should, of course, fix them. And, in order to get CCP to say that high sec missions are a broken game mechanic, it takes a lot of whining on the forums. We're just doing what is traditionally done to get changes in the game. So, if the player base whined hard enough for something like adding a form of CONCORD to lo-sec, CCP should listen as well? Is this what you mean?

Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:21:00 - [281] Originally by: Karii Ildarian So, if the player base whined hard enough for something like adding a form of CONCORD to lo-sec, CCP should listen as well? Is this what you mean? No, I don't mean CCP should listen. I am saying that it's apparent that they do listen. Start your own whining about CONCORD in low sec. This thread is about nerfing lvl 4s.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:28:00 - [282] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Karii Ildarian So, if the player base whined hard enough for something like adding a form of CONCORD to lo-sec, CCP should listen as well? Is this what you mean? No, I don't mean CCP should listen. I am saying that it's apparent that they do listen. Start your own whining about CONCORD in low sec. This thread is about nerfing lvl 4s. Not interested in whining for nerfs, tbh. I'm not really convinced that CCP actually "listens", when "listening" means changes they may disagree with, regardless of player whining. If CCP thinks L4 hi-sec missions are broken, they will change them. If they don't, they probably won't. You guys act as if CCP doesn't play their own game.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:34:00 - [283] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Not interested in whining for nerfs, tbh. I'm not really convinced that CCP actually "listens", when "listening" means changes they may disagree with, regardless of player whining. If CCP thinks L4 hi-sec missions are broken, they will change them. If they don't, they probably won't. We're making sure the items stays on the agenda. It'll get the changes live faster, and it is amusing to see all the high sec huggers get their panties in a twist about their isk prints being removed. Originally by: Karii Ildarian You guys act as if CCP doesn't play their own game. Well, sometimes you have to wonder if they really do. Some decisions are so out of touch with the reality of the game it's almost funny.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:41:00 - [284] Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 25/08/2008 13:42:22 Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 25/08/2008 13:41:18 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Karii Ildarian Not interested in whining for nerfs, tbh. I'm not really convinced that CCP actually "listens", when "listening" means changes they may disagree with, regardless of player whining. If CCP thinks L4 hi-sec missions are broken, they will change them. If they don't, they probably won't. We're making sure the items stays on the agenda. It'll get the changes live faster, and it is amusing to see all the high sec huggers get their panties in a twist about their isk prints being removed. You assume a bit much... When the actual changes are, in fact, contrary to your wishes, can I have your stuff? Quote: Originally by: Karii Ildarian You guys act as if CCP doesn't play their own game. Well, sometimes you have to wonder if they really do. Some decisions are so out of touch with the reality of the game it's almost funny. Funny, I always thought that CCP's decisions created the "reality of the game".
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:52:00 - [285] Originally by: Karii Ildarian You assume a bit much... When the actual changes are, in fact, contrary to your wishes, can I have your stuff? Only if you agree to the same thing. If CCP nerfs high sec missions, you give me your stuff. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Funny, I always thought that CCP's decisions created the "reality of the game". Guess that went over your head. No sweat.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:03:00 - [286] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Karii Ildarian You assume a bit much... When the actual changes are, in fact, contrary to your wishes, can I have your stuff? Only if you agree to the same thing. If CCP nerfs high sec missions, you give me your stuff. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Funny, I always thought that CCP's decisions created the "reality of the game". Guess that went over your head. No sweat. If CCP nerfs hi-sec missions, they must have viewed them as broken, so no, you cannot have my stuff. As far as going over my head, no, but yours, most likely.
Die Warzau	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:17:00 - [287] Generally supported in principle, if not in the details. The problem with putting some class of mission in 0.0 space is that it gives sovereign alliances an unfair advantage in PvE (IMHO anyway). I guess it would work if you put a sufficient number of l4s in the portion of 0.0 that does not allow player sovereignty. I definitely support moving more high level missions to low sec though.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:43:00 - [288] Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 25/08/2008 14:43:51 Originally by: Karii Ildarian If CCP nerfs hi-sec missions, they must have viewed them as broken, so no, you cannot have my stuff. That's kinda cowardly considering you asked for my stuff if no change happened. Guess you were only trying to get a zinger in there. To bad it back fired. Originally by: Karii Ildarian As far as going over my head, no, but yours, most likely. This is just NO U with more words. Try again, college-boy.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:09:00 - [289] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 25/08/2008 14:43:51 Originally by: Karii Ildarian If CCP nerfs hi-sec missions, they must have viewed them as broken, so no, you cannot have my stuff. That's kinda cowardly considering you asked for my stuff if no change happened. Guess you were only trying to get a zinger in there. To bad it back fired. Originally by: Karii Ildarian As far as going over my head, no, but yours, most likely. This is just NO U with more words. Try again, college-boy. Thought you might rage-quit if CCP didn't give in to your demands. Oh well... NO U, was not really my intention, but if it makes it easier for you, so be it. College-boy! One can only dream...
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:33:00 - [290] All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec?

Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:34:00 - [291] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Karii Ildarian You guys act as if CCP doesn't play their own game. Well, sometimes you have to wonder if they really do. Some decisions are so out of touch with the reality of the game it's almost funny. Well yes, they are going to be out of touch. One of the classic problems with devs playing their own game is they loose the 60,000ft perspective. They know how they play (PvP) and where they play (BoB) and tend to lack perspective on other areas of the game. That being said.. from an economic perspective PvP is a lossy activity. It needs to be offset with low risk ISK generation or the game collapses. The only way they can afford to cut the ISK printers is to make PvP less costly (or more profitable). Otherwise power will become even MORE centralized in the big alliances (with their access to extremely profitable null sec resources) and the small/solo players will stop bothering to play.
Kwedaras Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:07:00 - [292] Originally by: Karii Ildarian All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec? 10 mil/h if VERY lucky, normally i think 6-9 would be right
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:20:00 - [293] Originally by: Kwedaras Originally by: Karii Ildarian All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec? 10 mil/h if VERY lucky, normally i think 6-9 would be right I usually make about 5 or 6 tops, if I get good missions. This sounds like a raise. :)
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:33:00 - [294] Originally by: Karii Ildarian All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec? About the same as high sec mining with a hulk. The problem is, the miner's income is determined to a great deal by the market, which is player controled, and thus falls in the realm of PvP. Because of this, a nerfing of rewards of missions in high sec won't be enough in and of itself. Some kind of competition will have to be introduced, such as the suggested sliding agent quality.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:38:00 - [295] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Karii Ildarian All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec? About the same as high sec mining with a hulk. The problem is, the miner's income is determined to a great deal by the market, which is player controled, and thus falls in the realm of PvP. Because of this, a nerfing of rewards of missions in high sec won't be enough in and of itself. Some kind of competition will have to be introduced, such as the suggested sliding agent quality. Regular casual miner, or macro miner?
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:41:00 - [296] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Regular casual miner, or macro miner? Macro mission runners could make what macro miners make and casual mission runners could make what casual miners make. Ok with you?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:23:00 - [297] These "OMFG EVE WILL LOSE SUBS AND DIE" crap is just wrong. 1) People who do nothing but mission all day and play purely for the missions (the minority) will not be affected because they don't really spend ISK on anything, so a decrease in income wont matter. Who knows, ti might encourage them to explore other aspects of the game as well. 2) People who use missions to fund other things will be affected, but they wont /ragequit over it...at least no more than a few. Did pirates all quit EVE when WTZ was introduced? Are all the nano-users going to quit after the nerf? How about the stacking nerf many years ago, did the people who relied on Gankageddons quit? Improving game balance and moving the game closer to its stated design goal will NEVER kill the game. You know what WILL kill the game? Trying to be a WoW-clone in space, because lets face it, EVE's PVE sucks. EVE will simply not succeed if it tries to become more like WoW because WOW has the whole "carebear PVE" thing down. If someone seriously wants that type of game, they will go to WoW because WoW does it better. EvE offers a risky, difficult, PVP game and improving that would only make EVE grow.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:34:00 - [298] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Kwedaras Originally by: Karii Ildarian All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec? 10 mil/h if VERY lucky, normally i think 6-9 would be right I usually make about 5 or 6 tops, if I get good missions. This sounds like a raise. :) You must be the worst mission runner in EVE then, and probably end up on 2-3 mill/hr. Vote against the nano nerf!
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.26 07:36:00 - [299] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Kwedaras Originally by: Karii Ildarian All kidding aside, I would like to ask one serious question. Exactly how much ISK/hr should a mission runner be able to make in hi-sec? 10 mil/h if VERY lucky, normally i think 6-9 would be right I usually make about 5 or 6 tops, if I get good missions. This sounds like a raise. :) You must be the worst mission runner in EVE then, and probably end up on 2-3 mill/hr. Well, let me check my log... No Alts... check Limited play time (rl 9 to 5, etc,etc,etc...) ... check Run an average of one L4/evening (unless I get courier missions, than more, but less...)...check Average time played/evening...3.5 to 4 hours... check Yup, I average about 5 to 6 million isk/hour, so maybe I am the worst mission runner in EvE. Do you believe that one should have various alts on multiple accounts, to run missions in this game? If so, what seperates you from a macro miner? I also wanted to comment on the "sliding scale agent" idea. Must be the first time I ever heard players ask for, what is essentially, a geographical nerf... Lastly, someone else pointed out the most obvious flaw: Nerfing L4 missions would, in the end, result in a significant increase in the power of 0.0 alliances. Low sec will still suck...
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.08.26 09:01:00 - [300] Hmmm, Goons want to nerf the Lvl 3/4 missions in High Sec so they can "Farm" noobs all day without moving from the gate. 0.0 pay is worse than Lvl 4 well then Goons you obviously fail, Move off the Gate once in a while and stop suicide ganking Noobs in High Sec and explore a bit more you might find some nice cash making activities. Alternatively go run a few Lvl 3 or 4 missions in low sec you get more Isks for your risk, oh wait that is what you want right? so this thread fails, the idea fails.



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