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[Issue] Risk/reward of empire

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Impact Crater	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:24:00 - [91] Edited by: Impact Crater on 11/08/2008 23:24:55 Supportin
Pherusa Plumosa Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:32:00 - [92] imho it would be enough to move lvl 4 to lowsec. I remember flying lvl 5 missions on sisi. Never heard of anyone flying them on tranquility. Nobody bothers teaming up with other ppl in lowsec, risking ships, when you can solo lvl 4 missions 23/7 in highsec without any risk. But I highly doubt CCP will ever move every lvl 4 agent out of high sec, because of massive upcoming carebear-whine. So how about keeping lvl 4 agents in High sec, but remove isk rewards for missions, remove bounty and drop less loot, only keep lp-rewards. If you want to fly lvl 4 in the current form, you would have to move to lowsec. __________________________________________________
Kahega Amielden 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:41:00 - [93] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/08/2008 05:41:44 Quote: If you want to make Isk buying more of a problem, reduce CCPs subscriptions, reduce CCPs profits, and make Eve less appealing to new players. Sigh. 1) ISK buying is only a problem when you have impatient ****s who think they deserve to always fly faction-fit pwnships and think they should be disposable. The GMs can handle this quite nicely. 2) For every subscription they lose to a /ragequitter, 3 more will come because the game because there are actually goals now. 3) see #2 4) IF YOU'RE RUNNING LEVEL 4 MISSIONS YOU ARE NOT A NEW PLAYER. NO ONE HERE has suggested nerfing level 2 or 1 missions.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:46:00 - [94] Originally by: Pherusa Plumosa imho it would be enough to move lvl 4 to lowsec. I remember flying lvl 5 missions on sisi. Never heard of anyone flying them on tranquility. Agree with the first part, however I know of people who did level 5's on tranquility (myself included) - they aren't worth the effort, as they paid quite badly last I did them. Originally by: Pherusa Plumosa Nobody bothers teaming up with other ppl in lowsec, risking ships, when you can solo lvl 4 missions 23/7 in highsec without any risk. What you've said about low sec isn't true. It's most likely you are misinformed, 0.0. pilot. San Matari Official forums
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:47:00 - [95] Quote: Agree with the first part, however I know of people who did level 5's on tranquility (myself included) - they aren't worth the effort, as they paid quite badly last I did them. Lowsec missions were boosted quite a bit. Last I read they paid some 60K LP/mission.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Agree with the first part, however I know of people who did level 5's on tranquility (myself included) - they aren't worth the effort, as they paid quite badly last I did them. Lowsec missions were boosted quite a bit. Last I read they paid some 60K LP/mission. Ah I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. San Matari Official forums
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:54:00 - [97] Loot was boosted to, so level 5 missions are quite nice now. However, that doesn't change the fact that you can run level 4s solo and do so semi AFK without having to worry about any real risk.
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:38:00 - [98] No support. There really isn't a problem with the way things are set up now. 1) Most high quality level IV agents are either located in low sec or give missions for low sec. 2) I've never seen a level V agent in high sec. 3) Loot is much better in missions found in low sec. For instance, I've never heard of faction fittings being found in a high sec mission. At least not reacently. There were some missions rumored to give faction stuff regularly, but those have been considerably dialed back and I don't think it was occuring in high sec even then. Summary: In terms of loot, isk (from bounties, mission payment, mission bonuses) and loyalty points, low sec missions already give a substantially greater payout than high sec missions. Additionally, level V missions simply don't exist in high sec and they pay out just a little better than any level IV's. This just seems like another plan to force people out of high sec so they can be easy prey. Windjammer
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:59:00 - [99] Posting in a very silly, yet popular thread for kicks! Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:11:00 - [100] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Loot was boosted to, so level 5 missions are quite nice now. However, that doesn't change the fact that you can run level 4s solo and do so semi AFK without having to worry about any real risk. Who are running lvl 4s solo? That's absurd. Oh wait... you're talking about all the players who actually play the game and utilize many of its intended purposes? SARCASM The same players that you think you can put a value on their time and their play style? The players that pay for and have always been freely able to play as they wish. Personally, I think if you want to put in the time to run a dozen lvl 4's, then so be it. They are putting in just as much time as you... maybe they just utilize their time more constructively? Rather than camping for countless hours to finally kill a noob caracal and chestpop like you are uber at what you do. Get a clue. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.

Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.13 05:09:00 - [101] Edited by: Sylthi on 13/08/2008 05:13:59 No support. This thread is here simply because some Goons want more people fit for missions out in low sec so they (the goons) can gain a "no risk" activity of their own; namely ganking missioners with impunity. Just be honest and admit the reason your for this idea goon. Beyond that, this would wreck a legitimate gaming style that exists in game just because somebody else doesn't "like" how they play. Everyone claims that the risk/reward is out of balance in high sec. This may or may not be true. (Personally I think its NOT out of balance, but many would disagree.) But, what MOST people fail to realise is that (one of the MAIN reasons) high sec is there is for people to build up capital for low/no sec operations. (Either to start them, continue them, or try them again because things didn't go so well.) Heavy PvPer's think that moving levels 4's (and other levels) out to low/no sec will give them more easy targets to shoot at. In reality, in the long run, it will have the exact opposite effect: There will be even LESS for you to shoot at out in low/no sec because people will have to spend MORE time in empire (running lower level missions in relative saftey) before they have enough capital to venture out. Farmers and isk sellers are a problem, yes. Level 4 missions are a primary source of their income. But, this is a problem for CCP enforcement; not an excuse to ruin a portion of the game for a goodly number of people. Once again, emphatic non-support. * *
Thoram Minmatar Twin Sun Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.13 15:30:00 - [102] Originally by: Sylthi Edited by: Sylthi on 13/08/2008 05:13:59 No support. /SNIP/ Farmers and isk sellers are a problem, yes. Level 4 missions are a primary source of their income. But, this is a problem for CCP enforcement; not an excuse to ruin a portion of the game for a goodly number of people. Once again, emphatic non-support. I also disagree with this proposal, but I have to ask. How does one farm in a L4 mission? You need to have a ship capable of handling what comes your way, and you need to talk to your agent and then make sure you are properly fitted for the type of mob you are facing, either with shield harderners or armor harderners and such. Is someone that spend all day doing L4 missions a farmer? or are they just playing the part of the game they find enjoying? I spend most of my time online hauling ore or doing market runs, does that makes me a farmer, or does that makes me a player that enjoys those aspect of the game?
Kwedaras Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:18:00 - [103] Originally by: Thoram Originally by: Sylthi Edited by: Sylthi on 13/08/2008 05:13:59 No support. /SNIP/ Farmers and isk sellers are a problem, yes. Level 4 missions are a primary source of their income. But, this is a problem for CCP enforcement; not an excuse to ruin a portion of the game for a goodly number of people. Once again, emphatic non-support. I also disagree with this proposal, but I have to ask. How does one farm in a L4 mission? You need to have a ship capable of handling what comes your way, and you need to talk to your agent and then make sure you are properly fitted for the type of mob you are facing, either with shield harderners or armor harderners and such. Is someone that spend all day doing L4 missions a farmer? or are they just playing the part of the game they find enjoying? I spend most of my time online hauling ore or doing market runs, does that makes me a farmer, or does that makes me a player that enjoys those aspect of the game? you dont need so much attention to do missioning. passive tanks and fof missiles helps even better. so a farmer (a guy) has several accounts, and does missions with all of them all day long, 23/7. all characters are in npc corps so you cant do anything about them as suicide ganking is not profitable on them. And also the loss of ship for them is not expensive. I know a guy (talked a few times with him) who does missions with 9 accounts, all of them are played at the same time by him. The player who playes eve only for missions is called carebear. No you are not a farmer, because you use your brain, what to buy, what to sell and also you are operating in limited way of earning money. Missions (lvl4 hisec) are unlimited riskless way to earn money, so thats why majority of eve players want to nerf them.
Innominate GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:29:00 - [104] Simple and effective.
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:44:00 - [105] Not supported. Of course all PVP-ers want to solve their problem of not having enough easy kills as income by forcing carebears into lowsec. Of course they market their "solution" as a "risk/reward" thing. Of course it's no real solution to relevant problems. How many more anti-carebear threads do we need on this forum? Seriously people, haven't we read this already over and over again, with all the usual suspects stating the same things, only looking out for their own interests instead of making a real effort to fix a real problem that benefits ALL in game?
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:51:00 - [106] Originally by: Malcanis Give that I can - and I don't care what you say, it's both true and unexceptional - make 20-25M in an hour, buying a 16-18M ISk implant is not challenging. Well, good for you. Have a cookie. How much YOU can do is irrelevent. There are players that pull in a billion or more per week that can afford to replace +5 implants all the time, they are irrelevent too. I'm talking about the low end casual players, who might pull in 20-30M per month.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:03:00 - [107] I find it amusing that pvpers would rather fight carebears than other pvpers. Seems you don't think highly of yourselves at all. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:24:00 - [108] Originally by: Kwedaras Missions (lvl4 hisec) are unlimited riskless way to earn money, so thats why majority of eve players want to nerf them. Where the heck do you get this "majority" bull from?!
Zan Maruke Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:29:00 - [109] Edited by: Zan Maruke on 13/08/2008 21:29:43 No support. Sylthi has the right of this. High Sec is a place for people to recover from losses in low sec/0.0 and get moving again or just to enjoy a more casual approach to Eve. Let's face it, Eve hardcores aren't going anywhere. What's the alternative? What are you going to go play? CCP obviously is very interested in growing the player base and many players simply aren't going to want to compete right off the bat in 0.0. Or maybe ever. And why should they have to? But enough will to keep the population growing. Think of high sec as a fallow field. It's where new warm bodies arrive and get situated. It's where the beaten and tired go to rest. Sure, some people will exploit the situation but the real money is still out in 0.0. If it wasn't why would anybody be there as it is? CCP's Ambulation project and the presentation around it clearly shows the thinking of the team. They want new blood. New kinds of players. Maybe players that have interests other than 24/7 pewpew. I remember leaving Pirates of the Burning Sea because there was too much PvP all the time, everywhere. No real 'safe havens' to recover or recoup. All harbors could fall under blockade and the waters turn treacherous. Economies easily crushed. But the defeated had nowhere to go to rebuild and recover. That's really when the genius of Eve's High Sec hit me. Originally by: Sylthi But, what MOST people fail to realise is that (one of the MAIN reasons) high sec is there is for people to build up capital for low/no sec operations. (Either to start them, continue them, or try them again because things didn't go so well.) Heavy PvPer's think that moving levels 4's (and other levels) out to low/no sec will give them more easy targets to shoot at. In reality, in the long run, it will have the exact opposite effect: There will be even LESS for you to shoot at out in low/no sec because people will have to spend MORE time in empire (running lower level missions in relative saftey) before they have enough capital to venture out.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 22:43:00 - [110] People say this and that about how its for people to build up isk to go to low sec or 0.0 but the fact is in most 0.0 you would be making more money with a high sec agent. I really don't care about killing the mission runners, I just want the effort that it takes to be in low sec or 0.0 to be worth more than running high sec missions in a raven thats total lose would take 1-2 missions to pay off. I would be just as fine if they dropped the rewards of high sec mission running down 50% then it would not bother me as much. But having been living in 0.0 for 2.5 years I think I have a right to ***** that it is worth this much. I have watched a friend on his high sec mission character and seen how much effort it takes. That is why I think this is important. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug

HCIChicken	Posted - 2008.08.14 00:01:00 - [111] Currently the only way to make more money in 0.0 is through drone region ratting, or moon mining. Level four missions shouldn't be this rewarding and should be adjusted.
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.14 00:18:00 - [112] Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: General Spaz That's the problem, CCP is catering to people like you who rarely play the game, the players who actually play the game for what it's worth are getting screwed by people who farm without consequence. Funny, since usually the problem is CCP tunes all of it's stuff to people who play large amount and tends to ignore the rather sizable community of 5-10 hour/week player. EvE is actually pretty attractive for the casual players, esp with the skill system. It's a game where someone who plays 5 hours/week or less can still be active in a corp of hardcore people and still be useful. This is me many weeks and I live full time in 0.0 -- It's perfectly viable to be a casual player down here. My impression is that a lot of highsec-only players have an unrealistic idea of the time commitment required to play in 0.0. While some alliances may require more commitment there are also opportunities for casual play. One of the biggest obstacles for casuals in nullsec is simply a matter of education. It's pretty easy to avoid undesirable engagements in EVE once you've learned how, but unfortunately that's not something they put in the tutorials. Maybe we need a "burn back to the gate" tutorial, along with a "fit a cloak" tutorial and a "watch intel channels" tutorial? ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
fishblades GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.14 00:27:00 - [113] Originally by: Damned Force Terrible idea No reason to make the 0.0 spaceholding megaalliances even more rich and the other peoples cut off from lvl4 missions. U have missions there. If u want to have more lvl4 u can move free to the empire. U have moons for mining, high end minerals in belts, good ratting possibilities, officer spawns, faction spawns, valuable plexes...... If u dont like the way than give up your space and go back to empire hahahahahahahahahah let me set you straight. No missions in 0.0 Empire sucks Have you ever got a faction or officer spawn, I have and I can tell you 90% of faction spawns are worthless. Wooo ammo and a tag AWESOME Officer spawns are even more of a joke since I've lived in 0.0 for a year and haven't seen 1. Someone got one in the system I rat in the other day and it was worth maybe 100mil hahahah Moon mining is done on an alliance level 0.0 is the "end game" there's no reason people living in a newbie area should be making as much as pilots in 0.0 space who have fought and paid for that space.
Varus Riaz Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 00:49:00 - [114] Something needs to be done. The sad fact remains that high-sec is far more profitable than large swaths of 0.0. Either high-sec needs to be nerfed or low-sec/0.0 needs more boosts.
Solanar Starjumper Proctla	Posted - 2008.08.14 01:29:00 - [115] Edited by: Solanar Starjumper on 14/08/2008 01:29:47 I don't understand these people who think that warping into low sec is an immediate death sentence. As long as you are at the keyboard playing the game, it's not that bad. Sometimes you might die with no chance to avoid it, but most of the time I don't see anyone else, pirate or otherwise. edit: I don't support putting the lvl 4's into 0.0, but putting 3's and 4's into lowsec sounds fair.
Ifusikae Uiohyu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.14 01:33:00 - [116] Hells yeah.
Flaming Lemming Caldari Puppeteer Press	Posted - 2008.08.14 02:11:00 - [117] "Don't Nerf my nanos!" "Don't nerf my suicide ganks!" "Don't nerf (again, I admit) my war decs!" "Wait, people are having fun but I can't easily shoot them? NERF THE WAY THEY PLAY!!!!" Yeah....no. Not supported.
Elektrea SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.14 02:12:00 - [118] Originally by: Flaming Lemming "Don't Nerf my nanos!" "Don't nerf my suicide ganks!" "Don't nerf (again, I admit) my war decs!" "Wait, people are having fun but I can't easily shoot them? NERF THE WAY THEY PLAY!!!!" Yeah....no. Not supported. you are a tard ----------
Flaming Lemming Caldari Puppeteer Press	Posted - 2008.08.14 03:42:00 - [119] Edited by: Flaming Lemming on 14/08/2008 03:46:32 Originally by: Elektrea Originally by: Flaming Lemming "Don't Nerf my nanos!" "Don't nerf my suicide ganks!" "Don't nerf (again, I admit) my war decs!" snipped for needed letters you are a tard No, I'm sick of the goddamn hypocrisy of the "PvP elite" in this game. Apparently people being able to enjoy the game the way they like without being an easy target makes way too many e-PvPeens shrivel up and die. Could High sec risk/reward/time balance be looked at and possibly adjusted? Absolutely. Although..with so much mission money pouring into the game at nigh catastrophic levels, you'd think that prices would be inflating faster then the blow up altar boy doll in the priests bedroom..yet somehow, this disastrous inflation that would logically be the result of mega millions/billions/trillions being 'farmed' 23/7/365 doesn't seem to be happening..so maybe it's not as big of a problem as the people whining seem to think. People have been whing that the nerfs I mentiond were like using a chainsaw to preform brain surgery. Fair enough, although most reasonable people will agree that SOME changes were needed...but are all over the map on how much change is necessary. However, those would be minor changes when compared to the OPs idea. All level 4s to no sec, and all level 3s to low sec would cause a fundamental change in the game play of what...50%-75% (?)(guessing, based on various things I've heard about the %age of people in high sec) of the player base. PvP will actually get worse..because it's too damn expensive to replace ships without access to decent missions, and who the hell would want to do level 3 missions in low sec..the pirates/gankers (and I admit, they are different things) would be salivating over the new target rich environment..except, due to overhunting (and don't fool yourself, overhunting would happen) the people likliest to do level 3 missions would be unable to afford the constant replacement of ships, or the constant re-grinding of status (due to failed/timed out missions) so low sec would remain the same (or even worse) wasteland that it is today. And the newbie trying to get ahead in the world is stuck with level 2 missions in high sec (and you think level 4s are boring) or trying to latch on with a 0.0 corp/alliance..most of which have sp requirements that the newer players won't meet. So they bugger off to another game. And the people who were avoiding low sec/0.0 because they wanted to minimize their PvP exposure..well they still don't want to go to low sec/0.0, so they slowly drift away from the game (not many ragequit...they just give up over time when they realize they aren't enjoying the game anymore..a slow trend, not a sudden drop) So you've got the new player growth slowing as word gets out the EvE has gotten even less friendly for the newcomer/casual player. The 'carebear' (more specifically, the mission-runner) population is slowly dwindling as they give up on the game. The only one left are the PvPers and the industrialists. Great, just what you want, right? I hope you don't mind paying through the ass for named mods, since most the the supply is gone. Those hardware upgrades to reduce 0.0 fleetbattle lag? Well, sadly, CCPs income stream has dropped significantly, so that needs to be put on hold. I'm sure EvE will survive...but it will likely be a much smaller game. NOw..having prophesized doom... Some reasonable adjustments to risk/reward that I've heard move all level 4 agents >quality 0 to low/no-sec. dynamic agent quality..more used agents lower in quality, lesser used go up in quality (more to break up mission hubs than a isk adjustment, admittedly) limit the number of missions a player can get from a certain agent (or even an NPC corp) per day..myabe a max of 5/agent and 10/corp per day. Limited, reasonable changes..which can be adjusted as needed instead of hardore nerf hammer time. The same way the nerfs I mentioned in my first post should be looked at.
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.14 04:12:00 - [120] Originally by: Thoram I also disagree with this proposal, but I have to ask. How does one farm in a L4 mission? -SNIP- Is someone that spend all day doing L4 missions a farmer? -SNIP- First question first: You don't know how to farm level 4 missions? GOOD. Too many people know how to already. Second question: NO. If you spend all day running missions with your character, more power to you. I have been known to run lvl 4's for 8-14 hours straight (on my days off) as a way to build up capital for my other in game activities. Truth be told, the only play styles that I have a problem with are macroers and farmers. Other than them, let everybody enjoy the wonder that is Eve the way they WANT to, I say. I just wish more players felt the way I do, and would quit clogging up the forums with "take away from THEM and give to ME" threads. Seriously though, cheers to you, and I am GLAD you enjoy your activities in Eve just the way they are. Peace. * *



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