In general I like the direction this is going.

Cyno-jammers. Wow. There are so many ways to grief inherent in that. I would say if it is implemented it should be done for the Highest LP cost and should be very temporary. Say no more than 30 minutes

Not docking in enemy system stations is a huge mistake.

this.

the FW changes look really awesome. I love the idea that factions will be able to gain sov for their empires. I've posted a couple threads asking for exactly this =D I hope they expand it to highsec too =)

I don't really like the move to ihubs though. I like the diversity of targets. (POCO's vs POS for example) I hope they work a slightly different mechanic into the FW system then straight up ihubs

Completely disagree. No docking is an excellent and much needed mechanic.


Anyone complaining about their ships being 'locked away' has no ground to stand on tbh. You dont have to base on the front line, you can still contract 'locked out' ships etc for sale, use an alt to pick them up or just use a staging POS with corp hangars/ship arrays etc.

Apparently, RL isn't a solid ground to stand on? Let me offer a counter for people to chew on;

I go away for a few days. Or a week or two. All of a sudden the station that was in Gallente sov is now Caldari. How do I 'unlock' my ship? Now you're saying I have to train an alt to Gallente BCs or T2 HACS just so it can pick up my locked ship? Or who in the world is gonna buy a ship that is specifically rigged and fitted for certain combat situations?

Or that I or my corp now has to get into POS management just to avoid this lockout situation? Not every corp wants to buy a POS, learn POS management, and maintain the POS just so they can avoid this situation.

I totally agree that station games is horrible and we should do what is needed to deter this. Granted, this is all in the incubation stage and the 'no docking' mechanic is only suggested. But I've seen alot of people including Hans suggest a no docking mechanic and haven't seen alot of people try to counter it.

Reading b/w the lines, it seems that CCP is only in the incubation stage of iterating on FW. I was hoping they had more solid plans at this point for Inferno

Its the same as nullsec...

While I sympathise with those who are stupid enough to get cut off from all their assets, I do love to take advantage of these situations

Major mistake. It should be a completely different gameplay. The FW inhibitants are mainly people who want small-, fastpaced and fluid PvP. The nullsec combat is anything but that. And the people promised the FW-content was the old roleplayers, the nullsec mechanics offers nothing to them either. No sense x2.

Edit; Not to mention how stupid it is to balance FW gameplay around another mechanic that is flawed and appeals to a very small part of the community atm. If any gameplay (FW or whatever) is supposed to be based (or similar) to other content, it should be content that is appealing and actually works. WH is appealing and works. NPC nullsec is appealing and works. Sov null doesn't. Sov null needing a 'fix' is a separate issue tho, but centering gameplay around that is at best "lol's", at worst.. stupid beyond belief.

So systems can flip in 23 hours in null now? When was that change implemented?

If all other things were equal then you would be right on the money of course .....

There are also problems if it is a complete access denial for 'faction' stations like 24IC or TLF.

...For that reason alone total denial of station access would be completely stupid. If a system can be flipped in 11 hours, you can lose access to all your stuff because you did something crazy like go to sleep. A human need for sleep should not mean loss of access to assets....

Total denial is pretty borked, but the beauty of having some sort of 'penalty' is that it will create a natural border/frontline as difficulty in reshipping replicates the greatest balancing tool when it comes to war - supply lines. It will still be possible to go deep but it will require a massive investment in manpower, ISK and time to do properly especially if opposed.

As for Arzad .. it was pretty much why I suggested having a non-aligned faction represented in the zones to give some sort of support for 'isolated' systems like that. Even if it was only services that were denied the closest friendly system for you is Vard bexyond stationless Ezz but if a SoE station were present in say Sifilar it could serve as forward refitting base for attacks on constellation/region.

PS: Yes I know you have a couple more in area, but used for examples sake.

Not docking in enemy system stations is a huge mistake. the rest looks pretty fun

The entirety of plexing mechanics has promise for variety of ship types to be used instead of just battleships, logi, and caps as the order of the day. All we needed was a meaningful reason to fight over plexes. Lower skilled pilots could have an impact on the "war" by fighting in minor plexes forcing the enemy to ship down in order to capture the complex. You had all sorts of fights, frig/dessie brawls, cruiser skirmishes, and BC engagements in majors, and then the eventual cluster **** where everyone flies as big as they want for the bunker bust. CCP should understand that having all shiptypes meaningful is really important to the playstle most of us enjoy in faction war. Players have the option of hoping in a frig and brawling cheaply, or flying bigger ships too. I enjoy the variety. All ship sizes are relevent.

That's actually one of the better ideas. It gives meaning to control of space in a way that matters to individual pilots on a day-to-day basis. If you don't have standing with the faction that controls (sov) the area of space, why should you be allowed to dock up? By taking your opponents area, you deny them a base of operation and make it easier for you to do logistics / get replacement ships.

It mirrors null-sec a bit more where you have to be neutral/friendly with the local to obtain docking rights.

Now, maybe they need to extend that concept a bit further so that faction standings cause you docking problems in hi-sec as well.

If they take away the small gang aspect of FW (plexing) and just make it a structure grind i'll probably be unsubbing my accounts. There should be something similar to bunkers that creates opportunities for the bigger fleet fights, but it shouldn't be the only theater in FW. If i wanted to only blob and press f1 to get a killmail without having any kind of cognition going on in my head i'd have joined a nullsec alliance to do structure grinds.

I fully agree with this. But then again, the speaker was french and didn't he he had a hard-on for gallente anyway (playing in said faction) so I quess we can toss CCP:'s neutrality to thrashcan here. Bit like CCP waved the flag for frog militia and badmouthed Caldari in the alliance tournament they were allowed in back when FW was fresh. How did that work out for you idiots?

All due respect Damar, you wrote the book on plexing and I understand you will be passionate in its defense, as will most of us. But we have to keep this grounded and not get sidetracked by old grudges that have little to do with the situation at hand.

If we had a year to discuss this, maybe thereGÇÖd be more room for some trash talk. But we have a matter of weeks to get CCP to change their minds before theyGÇÖll be knee deep in programming. We cannot afford to bicker at this time.

[list]
Problems Considered:

(permajamming from Caldari NPCs)

That was not the point. I was merely bringing into attentions CCP's biased favor in regards to some militias, which in my opinion is very valid and important point to bring across. They have demonstrated it back when FW started, continued it with unannounced changes to plexing mechanics in 2009 and even with new mechanics they favor the "blob warfare" aspect more. Some people might forget or forgive what happened in the past but not me.

And you were not even interested to know what standings bug was back when Caldari demonstrated it for all the world to see (and ruined rp aspect of FW forever, thankfully), a mechanic which is still in widespread use and which nobody seems to want to fix.

ECCM. Its in the game for a reason.

The devs need to look at the mechanics used in Incursions. Great opportunities there on how to fight for control (incursionbar working up to MOM), how to organize places to set battlegrounds (like how shiny fleets compete at Vanguards), how to handout LP (no payout for blobbing), and how to track the status of contested systems (journal).

Incursions have proven to be an exceptional tool to achieve a mutual in-goal by crowdsourcing.

Quickly browsed through this thread, has good comments, most of them that were expressed during the round table.

Main things that stand out of this so far:

• Cyno jammer: creates a lot of corner cases and is a very risky move as it affects alliances, FW pilots and neutrals unrelated to FW. Need to be seriously looked into, and made a lot more solid if it is going to be implemented


• Over-designing FW: feedback expressed concerns about strapping a lot of consequences into a feature that may not be ready for them. Proposed idea was to start implementing stuff that made sense is approved by most of the players (LP for PvP kills, ranks, complex changes, fix issues with standings and notifications), see how it goes, then move ahead one step at a time. That would be a much prudent and wiser move in general.

I gathered quite a lot of notes from the FW round table as well, and there were good ideas being moved around. I'll talk with the other designers next week to see if we can have a look into this.

In all cases, many thanks for the discussion and comments, I really enjoyed the FW presentation questions / roundtable (even if it was a bit difficult to keep order at times )

how do you prevent spies/small corps throwing up cyno jammers. Who can activate it?

Not docking in enemy system stations is a huge mistake. the rest looks pretty fun

I like the idea of not being able to dock at an enemy station. after all you are at war with said faction. why would you allow someone like that to dock up all safe like.

Allow upgrades of systems you own using loyalty points.

Completely disagree. No docking is an excellent and much needed mechanic.

Anyone complaining about their ships being 'locked away' has no ground to stand on tbh. You dont have to base on the front line, you can still contract 'locked out' ships etc for sale, use an alt to pick them up or just use a staging POS with corp hangars/ship arrays etc.

Station games play way too much a part in lowsec pvp. Hopefully this will pull some risk adverse pvpers off stations. It just makes more sense too. For example someone from Caldari militia undocking from an FDU station in Gallente occupancy space slaughtering members of the FDU then waiting out a timer to redock without any repercussions... I mean come on.

Would appreciate a full list of what other features the presentation covered as I missed half. Cheers.

"but want to make it separate from 0.0 politics
Remove "occupancy", and affect sovereignty instead. Larger consequence of taking systems."

LP for PvP kills

Total denial is pretty borked, but the beauty of having some sort of 'penalty' is that it will create a natural border/frontline as difficulty in reshipping replicates the greatest balancing tool when it comes to war - supply lines. It will still be possible to go deep but it will require a massive investment in manpower, ISK and time to do properly especially if opposed.

As for Arzad .. it was pretty much why I suggested having a non-aligned faction represented in the zones to give some sort of support for 'isolated' systems like that. Even if it was only services that were denied the closest friendly system for you is Vard bexyond stationless Ezz but if a SoE station were present in say Sifilar it could serve as forward refitting base for attacks on constellation/region.

PS: Yes I know you have a couple more in area, but used for examples sake.

This is going to be so farmed that it will boggle the imagination. (Witness the issues that TOR had with Ilum.)

Even if you do something like "first kill within 28 days gets full credit, 2nd gets 1/2, 3rd gets 1/4, etc", players *will* figure out how to get around that. They will form alt-corps who do nothing but trade kills for LP. Or they'll figure out which hulls / fits offer the most LP/ISK and do their kill trading in those ships.

LP should only be rewarded for obtaining objectives, which is easier to police / code / monitor / balance.

There should be docking consequences imposed on a sliding scale based on standings....

....(even if it was a bit difficult to keep order at times )[/i]

Why would you actually want to restrict most of the fighting to the front lines? ...

[quote=CCP Ytterbium]LP for PvP kills[/quote

This is going to be so farmed that it will boggle the imagination. (Witness the issues that TOR had with Ilum.)

Even if you do something like "first kill within 28 days gets full credit, 2nd gets 1/2, 3rd gets 1/4, etc", players *will* figure out how to get around that. They will form alt-corps who do nothing but trade kills for LP. Or they'll figure out which hulls / fits offer the most LP/ISK and do their kill trading in those ships

LP should only be rewarded for obtaining objectives, which is easier to police / code / monitor / balance.

I really think they need to be adding pirate factions into this pdq. After all, there are tons of NPC 00 planets that could totally benefit from the dust link, and the faction warfare method to space.

[
You mean beyond logic, history and tradition?

[[quote=Cearain]

The good fights in the backwaters are not out of partial bases, but full fledged corp movements .. as in some system being HQ for a constellation/region.

Ok this may be a bad idea.

But the idea is that the areas we are fighting over are up for grabs right? So both sides will have some civilians on the ground secretly on their side.

So maybe higher ranking militia members will be able to use their connections in enemy systems (dock use services etc.) where as lower ranking militia won't. It gives benefit to ranks yet still allows for some consequences.

Perhaps the highest rated militia will be able to pull strings and dock anywhere. The middle ranks can dock anywhere as long as the system is "contested" at a certain level. Perhaps they won't be able to use all the staion services though.

This would all be arranged sort of in the background. People will therefore strive to get these ranks - which should only be achievable by plexxing.

Just some ideas.

Goddess no, lets not give more options to standings abuses. .....

This is going to be so farmed that it will boggle the imagination. (Witness the issues that TOR had with Ilum.)

this. just leave FW alone and kick the grumpy ol' burned-out veterans out of the game pls.

the background. all of this has happened because some people somewhere once said that their should be consequences to losing systems. cpp has taken this statement and turned it into the massive "what is wrong with faction warfare" item. i will try to state here clearly the difference between what i think/believe and what i said/know based on what i have seen and done last 2 days.

if you like station games this will screw you as well. all of a sudden everyone will have 5 guys in corp and 50 guys as neuts ready. it will seriously make it harder to get people to come into FW as the risk (or pain the bum anyway) goes up significantly

"Consequences" have to be positive, otherwise it drives people away from militia in general and away from the losing militias in particular.

I left 0.0 for a reason. I don't want FW to be like 0.0, I want FW (and lowsec) to be more like Fight Club. Come on, CCP...

j i think it's a really really bad idea and is going to turn eve fw into a job. you will log in each day and hope that the system that you're in hasn't been flipped while you were asleep and you have locked yourself out of your ships, corp hangers, medical facilities etc.

that has the massive impact of slowing down reships and making it harder to get and escalate fights. it means that people don't join fleets for pvp that also may involve system flipping, they join fleets because they HAVE to keep running plexes. this sucks

Welcome to a world with consequences. EVE. You may not like it, but then you can just go be a neutral pirate. If that's not what you want, then go join red versus blue.

I have said this repeatedly - Faction warfare should be for noobs learning to PVP and learning to do things together - not for EVE Vets. If that means that FW has to shrink before it grows so be it.

no, consequences need to supply enjoyable and meaningful game play. They don't need to be "positive".

They do need to be positive otherwise people will leave. It's not difficult to understand.

n++[ 2011.11.15 23:58:54 ] Nancy Bgdaad > Well nvm if you guys want me dead I'm dead already...
n++[ 2011.11.15 23:59:08 ] Bloodpetal > We could've killed you ages ago
n++[ 2011.11.15 23:59:28 ] Bloodpetal > This your first pvp?
n++[ 2011.11.15 23:59:51 ] Nancy Bgdaad > yeah figures... I'm sitting duck. Yes. Just join the militia and doing lvl 1 mission FW...
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:00:23 ] Nancy Bgdaad > and apparently everyone in the militia channel think I'm spy
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:00:29 ] Nancy Bgdaad > so I am flying alone...
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:00:35 ] Bloodpetal > lol
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:00:36 ] Anja Talis > Ouch. That sucks.
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:00:39 ] Salamaar > along is not good
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:00:39 ] Anja Talis > Are you a spy?
n++[ 2011.11.16 00:01:01 ] Nancy Bgdaad > What you think if I'm spy would I stuck here in lvl 1 mission...

To touch on the illness issue....


The players that used to care about FW left because there were no consequences. It's deteriorated to the point that ONLY "Fight Clubbers" are in FW.

And those fight clubbers will do anything to protect their little fight club. You really think that CCP built all that old stuff, even if it was total crap - for you to have a fight club? They have a full feature with "Occupancy", "plexes", "Missions" for a fight club? I don't like any of that stuff, I think it's total rubbish - but if you want a Fight Club, GO MAKE ONE like Red Versus Blue.

But, FW isn't for you. FW is for new people and people who care about the FACTION side - the INTRIGUE that attracts new players. New players come in and are totally lost when all they see is a bunch of Veterans that DON"T CARE ABOUT THEM because they accuse them of being spies because they're new players. They are lost because they see these things that they have to do but make NO CONSEQUENCE on anything because it's totally pointless.

Here's a discussion I had with a total noob who joined FW - and I have had other similar discussions.




I have recruited many Militia noobs to get them away from the militia because I knew all they'd do is get unhappy and discouraged with the system.

Noone recruits them, noone tries to train them. And they leave.


They are discouraged by the lack of :

Consequences
Veterans that will help them

And then you come in and say "omg, I will never be able to do my fight club stuff again!!"

Seriously? OMG, let's make sure this feature is made perfectly for you guys, just for your little fight "club". /sarcasm

losec is completely broken. ccp knows this and they're hoping that the FW pumps some life into losec quickly to buy some time for them to think through the re-balancing. i am also a semi-rp kind of guy. if you were in the corp you'd know what i'm like

CCP sees FW and Lowsec as different things and they've talked about "fixing" low sec separately. (It was on mentioned in the CCP presents presentation at Fan Fest)

Shouldn't FW be like war and low sec be like fight club?

no. they are pushing through a fix for FW because by default it fixes a lot of losec. then losec gets a focus in its entirety but it is much much harder to fix losec outside and within fw as it means mining, industry, pos, sov, pirates, criminality, minerals, moon goo, ring mining, dust, blah blah blah. i hate to point it out to you, but losec outside of FW space is COMPLETELY dead. it was clearly stated that fw gets a look now, then the rest of lowsec and 0.0 as part of the bigger picture.

i'm not going to spend 2 days to flip a system, and then watch it flip back in 2 days and then care enough to flip it back again when a. there is no reward or b. no incentive. at the same time i don't expect gold plates to be dropped off into my hanger bay for flipping systems - i just want to promote healthy pvp.

"Consequences" have to be positive, otherwise it drives people away from militia in general and away from the losing militias in particular.

What do you care? You are a spy alt. You WANT people away from caldari militia.

What do you care? You are a spy alt. You WANT people away from caldari militia.

Yes, and my main is a member of GalMil, you dunce. This is about the health of FW in general, not about point scoring in your own little corner of the warzone.

Spy alt, known for leading general militia members (aka "noobs") to their deaths and trolling miltiia chat with useless intel and assorted crap. And YOU are talking about health of FW with a serious face. At least man the f..k up and post with your main.



Frankly, i'm sick and tired of this bulls..t argument. Where were demands of respect and courtesy when people responding to this very thread were sending me death threats and accusing me of pedophilia?

dude, it's a game. eve is a video game.

To touch on the illness issue....


The players that used to care about FW left because there were no consequences. It's deteriorated to the point that ONLY "Fight Clubbers" are in FW.

Just one player's opinion (and a relatively new one's at that):

Much of the fun of faction warfare is infiltrating enemy space, and getting back out alive (or not -- lol). Being able to simply dock up in enemy systems like it's any old system is incredibly lame and takes much of the fun out of it. I'm looking forward to docking up in enemy space being made an impossibility.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve-online/interviews/inferno-part-one

Soundwave talks about FW in an interview near the beginning of this video. Kinda sounds like the Inferno changes outlined at Fanfest are pretty much set at this point, so if you hate them I'd be pretty vocal about it now.

Perhaps Hans could encourage some CCP devs/CSM7 members to have an in-game chat session with players or something about FW? (advertised by CCP so people actually know about it and show up of course)

@Bloodpetal
i think you misunderstand a lot about my point of view. and i think many of your ideas are pretty ridiculous.

i told them that everybody in the room knows that if ccp simply halved the payout of LP on faction missions, and gave us LP for every ship kill or plex we cap, that will fix 95% of the problems we have (not getting fights, making plexing valuable)

While I would agree some people may have left because of no consequences, this statement seems falsely assumes no dockign is the only consequences. Moreover it ignores the numerous other reasons people left faction war over the years of neglect:

joining my comments from another thread into here:
i think it's a really really bad idea and is going to turn eve fw into a job. you will log in each day and hope that the system that you're in hasn't been flipped while you were asleep and you have locked yourself out of your ships, corp hangers, medical facilities etc. you lose access to everything in the station (corp hangers anybody???).

this in turn means that everyone starts keeping their ships in tuo or other nearby hi-sec systems and that has the massive impact of slowing down reships and making it harder to get and escalate fights. it means that people don't join fleets for pvp that also may involve system flipping, they join fleets because they HAVE to keep running plexes. this sucks

the idea is that each corp/player out of the goodness of their hearts, piles massive amounts of LP into "upgrading" systems they have capped to make them harder to re-cap and to eventually activate a cyno jammer. let me make it clear - corps and players have to spend THEIR LP into levelling up the systems......so instead of people using LP to get slicers with which they do some PVP and keep things rolling, they have to instead give it all up for the benefit of the faction.

in reality, 1 or 2 corps and one or 2 players will care enough to do it a lot and it will not have much of an impact on anything apart from where we base our ships. this has monumental issues with other citizens of losec btw and massive repercussions for what might happen to fw. i'm sure that amarr doesn't want PL to join mims (for example) just so that they control the cyno jammer in make.

my idea with the cyno jamming (i think it could be a really good combat tool btw) is this. anybody can trade a fairly massive amount of FACTION LP in to receive a data-chip or activation key. this can be traded, sold, killed in a cargo bay, anything. next to every faction warfare i-hub is a cyno jammer. sitting there in space. happy as you like. If your faction holds the system sov, anybody in your faction can warp to the cyno jammer, insert the LP bought microchip and fire the cyno jammer. in 60mins or DT the cyno jammer turns off. this increases the value of system ownership, gives us something juicy to see on killmails, is really simple, means we dont really really upset other losec citizens and gives us another tool to bring back the days of 60 vs 60 bs fites in kourm/auga. most importantly it is easy to implement and communicate rather than escalating levels of sov in losec???? wtf

next i said the station stuff is just crazy. just plain crazy although personally i can live with it (it's just like 0.0 mechanics where you lose a station you just trade all your stuff to a neutral alt or an alt you have in the enemy corp/alliance and get it all out). but it will SIGNIFICANTLY decrease the tempo of getting the bigger fights escalating. if you like station games this will screw you as well. all of a sudden everyone will have 5 guys in corp and 50 guys as neuts ready. it will seriously make it harder to get people to come into FW as the risk (or pain the bum anyway) goes up significantly

i pointed out that if they implement the changes it will cascade fail the smaller militias as people wont want to join the losing side as there will be too much money to make on data cores on the winning side. just like the alliance changes have really boosted the mims and basically cut the heart out of amarr in recent weeks

on the avatar side they are looking at things like faction warfare medals, uniforms and accessories that can be purchased on the faction LP store and applied to your toon. they will look at ways to get the uniforms to update with ranks and stuff that you have earned in FW. no promises though.

I told them that everybody in the room knows that if ccp simply halved the payout of LP on faction missions, and gave us LP for every ship kill or plex we cap, that will fix 95% of the problems we have (not getting fights, making plexing valuable). if they did this right now, and then spent months working out whatever they want to do next, this would be the best approach to take. most people in the room like this and i got a pretty good round of applause for it.

Some Stuff

I think the no docking in enemy stations and cyno jammers or even jump bridges are great ideas. People want more to fight over and this will give them that. It would be still quite easy to have most your assets in a safe place and these ideas should bring the big groups into the picture and give more targets. I can not help but think the ranking system should be a part of the cyno / jump bridge part.

I am interested to see how rank perks will be brought into the game. I have never done FW but have spent years in 0.0. The proposed changes have me seriously looking at FW as a reason I may want to come back to the game and bring ships out of mothballs.

BTW, FW really needs overhaul in the wiki. Objectives, Missions, how to gain standings are all kinda fuzzy there to me. Let alone the corps involved on each side for recruitment. Warfare and tactics section in forums seems like a joke to support this as well.

I am all for improving FW mechanics since current doesn't really reward people for actual fighting but doing pve.

however people should realize if they want big scale fleets and stuff they should take next logical step and move into doing actual 0.0 alliance warfare.

FW should not be replacement for missing small alliance possibilities in 0.0. instead holding large regions and moving over long distances should be made more difficult so it's easier for smaller alliances and corps to take part in 0.0 warfare.

So I think instead of having LP's upgrade systems, I think that VP's should be the currency to purchase upgrades. Combining this with actual upgrades and consequences of system sovereignty should have the effect of getting more people to participate in plexing.

If all it takes is you leaving FW for a day to move your stuff out of a conquered station, then what's the big deal? A kind of "surrender". You can also contract your loot to a third party hauler or perhaps get an alt to move the stuff out. Not a big deal, tbh.

The only real consequence would be losing access to a FW mission agent.

Frankly, i'm sick and tired of this bulls..t argument. Where were demands of respect and courtesy when people responding to this very thread were sending me death threats and accusing me of pedophilia?

It also just makes no sense to have a blanket no dock rule over the whole system. 24th may not allow TLF to dock, that makes sense, but Quafe stations locking militia pilots out does not.

If all it takes is you leaving FW for a day to move your stuff out of a conquered station, then what's the big deal? A kind of "surrender". You can also contract your loot to a third party hauler or perhaps get an alt to move the stuff out. Not a big deal, tbh.

The only real consequence would be losing access to a FW mission agent.

Losing mission agent access is totally fine, thats the kind of thing that SHOULD be involved here.

But having to leave FW for a day is totally stupid. It's immersion breaking and many of us don't want long in / out corp histories. We take pride in long term consistency.

Also, hassling with alts is not a big deal for us veterans, but I agree with Bloodpetal in as much that we cannot simply think about ourselves here.

My big concern is not just for the vets, its for new players. When I first started FW, I spent a whole day fitting 12 rifters and flying them to Auga. I had no hauler or knowledge about how to haul safely in low sec, I just wanted to get started in PvP without cross training too much. I would have raged if I had woke up to have all that work go to waste, and I do NOT want young pilots to face that kind of frustration. So yes, X, I do think it is a big deal.

It also just makes no sense to have a blanket no dock rule over the whole system. 24th may not allow TLF to dock, that makes sense, but Quafe stations locking militia pilots out does not.

The problem is that, there would become a focus in FW for getting around the system, through use of alts, or leaving FW, etc, as you say.

Would you really prefer messing with alts all the time, moving crap around, rather then focusing on actually pvping and playing the game?

If this happens, mail me immediately. I will look into it. You need to realize you are an older pilot than me, and stop blaming me for not reacting during a time I wasn't playing the game. I'm trying to help here, but I can't help you if you don't communicate with me.

I

If you are concerned about the new players and logistics, perhaps consider what goes on with new -10s in pirate corps. Most if not all of the established pirate corps have there own logistics chains, doing regular runs to and from trade hubs, to keep there members supplied. Thinking less about yourselves (the vets) is probably good advice.

The difference of course is that pirate corps aren't denied access to stations even though they oftentimes have severely negative ratings towards them (due them cherry picking noobs on high sec gates).

Also, the mechanic proposed by the developers was that members of hostile factions would be locked out of every station in hostile systems, not just those owned by the opposing militia NPC corp.

It is a hope shared by everyone involved, but I fear it is all for naught. If the presented plan was/looked so fleshed out as indicated by people from FF then they are going with FW = Null Lite.

Blobs, EHP grinds, massive inconveniences, removal of last official RP support and tons of meta-gaming.

As much as I enjoy shooting an insurgent from time to time ......

I'll disagree a bit on this. "Surrendering" by leaving FW for a day is not immersion breaking, IMO. It's "surrender". Pilots ought to choose their stations carefully, and they ought to be able to pod into a station to grab a ship. They just can't dock there again (if my previous suggestions were implemented).

Also, I had assumed they are going to lock out only FW-related stations, not other stations. Afterall, the other stations have nothing to do with FW.

Anyways, just another perspective on the matter.

The bottom line is that the ideas shown at Fan Fest were just not fleshed out enough to be "the plan" at this point, in terms of commitment. I think there is plenty of room here to point out that there just isn't time for complicated Sov Infrastructure systems if they don't have the balance right, and the bottom line is that the current package is NOT balanced, and CCP admits this.

Oh, one extra thing though - all that talk about losing access to your ships in Arzad or wherever you Gallente/Caldari folks are located, doesn't take one thing into account - these systems (well at least Arzad, don't know nothing about Gal/Cal systems) are already under your occupancy in addition to you just basing there.

What makes you think CCP will reset the sov/occupancy state? Because if they don't, Arzad gets Minmatar sov and your ships are still accessible just as they are now.

The thing people are worried about is ATM you can flip a system in 7 hours, So you can go to bed and the next morning your system has been captured and your locked out of all your assets if the station plans go through.

From our alliances RP perspective I like the idea of the Minmatar capturing Amarr systems fully but it's no good making it harder and harder for the Amarr to strike back as that will lead to fewer of them for us to shoot.

For the minute the only thing I fully agree on is Zero2respects Idea to Nerf mission LP and pay LP for plexing and kills with a split of the LP per ship involved in the kill to encourage more solo fights.

This is what it's all about, capturing space. I don't believe it will be harder and harder for Amarr to strike back though. We just have to notice then, that 90% of Metropolis is pretty much undefended since all of you slaves are busy in Bleak Lands. FW space isn't just the 10 systems around Auga.

...defeated by a Minmatar fleet that had no reships or assets in the area.

If the changes were brought in today and we retained all our captured 6 systems I think you would really struggle to compete, Which means less fights for us.

It amazes me that the people speaking for these changes are the ones that are *not* in the militia currently, and that most of the FW people here, including - which was rather surprising to me - "our" CSM member, would rather have a fight club than a meaningful war.

FW should not be a fight club, it's supposed to be a war between empires. It deteriorated into this kind of fight clubbish thing not so unlike RvB because it had no consequences whatsoever with the occupancy being pretty meaningless apart from satisfaction and getting fights. It was all it was good for.

Now CCP wants this conflict to have real, meaningful consequences (and of course there's nothing "positive" about them and neither should there be, because tell me why losing a system in a war should have any "positive" consequences to you?) and suddenly all the people that got used to the fight club are rebelling against it.

It's just amazing.

From the sounds of it, I'd say at least they'd try to compete, instead of just rage quitting FW like the lot of you seem to think everyone is going to do.

We look a 40 man fleet over to Intaki on saturday and helped resecured Intaki and Agoze.

I think what is important and being highlighted here is that players will need some sort of incentives on the losing side to prevent all out collapse. Perhaps payout rewards are higher for players on the losing side, showing that their small victories are worth so much more?

I'm lost, and am looking forward to someone shedding some light here.

I have heard nothing from CCP via fanfest, nor from the CSM I have spoken with, that says this is a done deal. I understand everyone's defaulting to cynicism, but I am holding CCP to their word that they are still open to change,,,

This is what it's all about, capturing space. I don't believe it will be harder and harder for Amarr to strike back though. We just have to notice then, that 90% of Metropolis is pretty much undefended since all of you slaves are busy in Bleak Lands. FW space isn't just the 10 systems around Auga..

He literally says that he would like FW to have all the intrigue/drama that is synonymous with null, because he finds it :awesome:

So while technically nothing is set in stone, it is my fear that it is far enough along that major changes are impossible unless one accepts waiting yet another expansion cycle for meaningful mechanics.

Keep hammering CCP on using Victory points (and not LP) for occupancy upgrades and we're there. :)

I was under the impression that the Victory Points will be phased out completely and everything will be dealt with LP. If you get more of them - from kills, plexes, upgrade bonuses it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

[quote=Veshta Yoshida]Same thing happened before with the Alliances FW change. And did all your doom scenarios happen?...

The FW missions should scale a bit better too, right now it's not even worth picking up a L1-L3 mission while they could open some interesting PvP situations (much like plexes).

I understand the proposals CCP is making. However, if you apply upgrades with VP then the guys who participate in the Occupancy Warfare portion of FW will get to make decisions on upgrades etc.. rather than the guys who don't (mission runners, guys who run fleets up and down the pipes looking for casual pvp).

... But I see you are a new player indeed. Let me say that this is how it is sov null sec and there are numerous reasons lots of players don't want that same stuff everywhere in the game. If this is a big issue for you there are lots of null sec corps that are new player friendly. Test alliance is one Space monkey alliance is another and I am sure there are many more. Look into it.

If fast combat where you can quickly reship and get back into fights at several places in the war front is not for you then fw may not be a good fit.

IIf I wanted to be as disingenuous as you're being, I could suggest there are other games you can play that provide much more in the way of instant gratification; EVE may not be a good fit for you if you can't stand taking more than 15 seconds recovering from a loss. But I try not to be quite so condescending when talking to someone just because we disagree on a point. You might want to try that... just a thought.

ie want that navy issue ship? yea it cost 20% higher in LP because your boys aren't doing so good, get in there and fight if you want cheaper stuff

[quote=X Gallentius]It's good to have another sink for them, rather than using them exclusively to pull out insane amounts of navy ships/modules/implants out of the store and screw around with the markets.
.

And you can be sure that 99% of the people will simply swap militias for more lucrative farming opportunities than actually go out and fight...

I get the feeling that you are more interested in driving up LP store prices for your farming alts than you are in proper mechanics. Is your corporation even involved in FW?

1. Those who participate in the Occupancy War portion of FW should have the most influence over its outcome.

Use VP for system Upgrades.

2. Those who participate in the Occupancy War should profit most from FW missions - not mission running alts:

Use VP to increase rewards for FW missions.

Again, why is it a good idea to give people who don't participate in the occupancy mechanic (mission running alts) the ability to influence it?

Why is it a good idea to allow mission running alts to have the same rewards as the people who actually participate in FW?

Having quickly checked battleclinic and eve-kill for your career, I find a single rifter loss to your name. So in regards to pvp, could you perhaps post with your main and we might take you a bit more seriously rather than laughing at shiteposting from an alt

Because to avoid it you have to either a) introduce some secondary point system which is completely unnecessary

Shouldn't FW be like war and low sec be like fight club?

Completely disagree. No docking is an excellent and much needed mechanic.

Anyone complaining about their ships being 'locked away' has no ground to stand on tbh. You dont have to base on the front line, you can still contract 'locked out' ships etc for sale, use an alt to pick them up or just use a staging POS with corp hangars/ship arrays etc.

Station games play way too much a part in lowsec pvp. Hopefully this will pull some risk adverse pvpers off stations. It just makes more sense too. For example someone from Caldari militia undocking from an FDU station in Gallente occupancy space slaughtering members of the FDU then waiting out a timer to redock without any repercussions... I mean come on.

Would appreciate a full list of what other features the presentation covered as I missed half. Cheers.

IGÇÖve actually ALWAYS said that full station lockout is a really bad idea that hampers small gang PvP. IGÇÖve always opted for a combination of blocking access to station functionality once docked, and having gate guns fire on enemies loitering outside, but never full station lockout.

What about two stations (One for each militia) in a FW System.

Militiants only can dock in their station.
The stations are camped by NPC of the occupancy holder (makes docking/undocking harder but not impossible)
The NPC scale with the occupancy level
Neutrals can't dock on any of those stations

This is war-territory. If you won't be in a melitia, then GTFO of that System!

This should be WAR and not highsec or 0.0

May i re-post my idea from the Fanfest-Panel thread (please discuss here, it is easier to follow one thread)



Is this an option for some of you?

Minor quibble. The VP point system has already been introduced.

I think they are making the wrong move in punishing a faction for not holding occupancy of a system, at least to the extent of denying docking rights. I could understand having Station Guns auto-attack the enemy faction. I could understand having denial of station services to the enemy faction. However, when combined with the incredibly quick flip-time of a system (a few hours of constant plexing) denying docking rights is a bad move.

We don't care about crushing the opponent into oblivion, about cutting off supply chains, about any kind of prolonged ~WAR~.
We care about blowing stuff up. All the time.

Holding occupancy then becomes a BAD thing. Not only does the enemy faction not have access to their ships (and therefore, we don't get the chance to blow them up), but the enemy will simply drop from FW to get their ships back and we will now not have any targets available.

CCP, READ HERE: Don't do a full station lock-out based on system occupancy. Either go with Hans' idea of being able to undock ships from station but not dock ships into the station (therefore our assets aren't completely locked off, we merely lose the station as a safe-haven/place-to-dock) or make it so we can't access the station's services.

How are you supposed to take a system back if you cannot dock anywhere within 10 jumps?

POSes currently suck for basing out of and the fact that bored 0.0 entities shoot them trying to pick a fight with somebody smaller than them to raise their own morale.

Following zero2's advice adding 2cents
1 leadership in militia to ONLY remove spys.

5 LP store needs to have own races t1 ships to purchase. hell you could even go as far as giving the LP store complete t2 modules and ships for each race. <<< many good and bad things can happen with this.