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Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2008.10.26 15:34:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Dr Prometheus on 26/10/2008 15:34:51 How about sharing the complete space with the cargobay/corphangar/ship bay?
460K (500k for coolness). cargo, wich can be used in every way. Instead of using 3 different types?
So you got 460k for ships, or 460k for corp hanger, or using 60k for corp and the rest to ships. makes it more flexible, and mor usefull. 9I do like it how it is now though.) but it can be improved.
And yes freighter interaction (optional maybe with some kind of "freighter interface module".) Would be cool. |
Lady ISK
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.10.26 16:31:00 -
[92]
All in all the ship looks to be decent, but nothing I'm too excited about
Here are my problems with it:
Wrong Skill Set:
There is no reason why the Orca should require Mining Barge V to fly it. This is not the next step up from a Hulk, its the next step up from a Command Ship for mining Directors to move into
The Skill set should be changed to:
Mining Foreman 5 Mining Director 3 Spaceship Command 5
Industrial Command Ships should have a pre-req of Command Ships 4.
This then rewards those mining directors who have been filling their role and this is the ship that rewards their skill training.
Slots
The slot low out is horrid.
2 Lows (ok I understand you don't uber maxed out Expanders on it)
3 Mids: Too few, big brother has 7. At least 4 would be needed to put any sort of tank and a scanner on it, otherwise you are just going to assume people will leave the scanner off it and let the individual hulks put the scanners on considering they have a much better tank.
3 Highs: So assuming I want to run 2 of the 3 links at a time (cycle time and range), then automatically I'm only going to have 1 TB on it. Since there are no weapon slots on it, giving it an extra high slot should make no difference.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.26 16:47:00 -
[93]
Again, Command Ships is a T2 skill. The Orca is a T1 Ship. No T1 ship requires a T2 skill.
You might as well rename the 'mining barge' skillbook to 'ORE Ships' and be done with it. Then you wouldn't have this 'not a mining ship' stuff, (and neither is the Rorqual, but they both give bonuses to miners!) |
Drunken Fury
Minmatar It's A Trap
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Posted - 2008.10.26 17:38:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Drunken Fury on 26/10/2008 17:38:36 This ship isn't going to suit the bigger heavy hitting mining groups. It's just not specialised enough.
What this ship WILL do is aid the small time miners.
People mining with 2 accounts, who has to deal with can flippers. Where looseing a single can of ore costs them a lot.
The skill requirements are low enough and the cost low enough that most miners will be able to train for it easily, and it'll do them well, as a mid level hauler.
It's not going to suit the Big mining ops other then as a temporary storage for mins. Sit in a belt, and tractor in from 15-20 hulks/Macs. It's not meant to HAUL, it's meant to collect the cans that the miners eject, and allow a hauler to fly between the Orca and the station. This way the haulers don't have to move all over the place, or warp to/from different can bookmarks in space. they just go back and forth between the station and the Orca.
It's not meant to be the master of any one role, but a all round mid level utitlity ship.
And like I said in another thread, it'll be a nice looter/salvager as well for the mission runners.
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.10.26 17:43:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Drunken Fury Edited by: Drunken Fury on 26/10/2008 17:38:36 This ship isn't going to suit the bigger heavy hitting mining groups. It's just not specialised enough.
What this ship WILL do is aid the small time miners.
People mining with 2 accounts, who has to deal with can flippers. Where looseing a single can of ore costs them a lot.
The skill requirements are low enough and the cost low enough that most miners will be able to train for it easily, and it'll do them well, as a mid level hauler.
It's not going to suit the Big mining ops other then as a temporary storage for mins. Sit in a belt, and tractor in from 15-20 hulks/Macs. It's not meant to HAUL, it's meant to collect the cans that the miners eject, and allow a hauler to fly between the Orca and the station. This way the haulers don't have to move all over the place, or warp to/from different can bookmarks in space. they just go back and forth between the station and the Orca.
It's not meant to be the master of any one role, but a all round mid level utitlity ship.
And like I said in another thread, it'll be a nice looter/salvager as well for the mission runners.
QFT. All of you people saying "it will fill up in 15 minutes, how is it supposed to haul, we need compression...." it's not supposed to be a hauler! If it was it wouldn't have gang links, it's supposed to sit and co-ordinate the mining op, providing a central point and good bonuses, and then after any mining ops, makes for a great utility vessel for moving the minerals, and any other stuff inc. ships around.
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ChaoticDemon
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:25:00 -
[96]
I've tried it and seems nice good tank only things I would change is increase drone bandwidth to 50 or 75 and drone bay to at least 150m3 also add 2 high slots 5 highs can fit 3 links tractor/salvager or 2 tractors other then that is fine as is as for people complaining command ships require racial cruiser 5 and battlecruiser 5 way I look at it is barge is replacement to cruiser and is t1 ship so other requirements not as high but would love to see a t2 version:)
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Dr Prometheus
Caldari Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2008.10.26 21:12:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Dr Prometheus on 26/10/2008 21:13:49 Edited by: Dr Prometheus on 26/10/2008 21:12:40 I know i am whining about it, but the Orca is fine as how it is, i got multiple acounts and the Orca will give me bigger and better ways of doinf the things i want. I already see its purpose on things he isnt build for. The Orca is fine, but most of the poeple who are shouting are in a big bad nasty over the top evil knevel like moving alliance/corp. Who wants some SuperRorqual/UberOrca/SuperdupperextremeFreighter/ultimatefingerinyoureyesturboTitanminer. I just want a Nice ship doing stuff it should do, and its a nice thing as mobile mining base. (I do think though that the ship bay must be increased to at least keep 3 hulks and one hauler. And freighter interaction.) |
shoot me
House Harkonnen
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Posted - 2008.10.26 21:20:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Caelum Mortuos
Originally by: Drunken Fury Edited by: Drunken Fury on 26/10/2008 17:38:36 This ship isn't going to suit the bigger heavy hitting mining groups. It's just not specialised enough.
What this ship WILL do is aid the small time miners.
People mining with 2 accounts, who has to deal with can flippers. Where looseing a single can of ore costs them a lot.
The skill requirements are low enough and the cost low enough that most miners will be able to train for it easily, and it'll do them well, as a mid level hauler.
It's not going to suit the Big mining ops other then as a temporary storage for mins. Sit in a belt, and tractor in from 15-20 hulks/Macs. It's not meant to HAUL, it's meant to collect the cans that the miners eject, and allow a hauler to fly between the Orca and the station. This way the haulers don't have to move all over the place, or warp to/from different can bookmarks in space. they just go back and forth between the station and the Orca.
It's not meant to be the master of any one role, but a all round mid level utitlity ship.
And like I said in another thread, it'll be a nice looter/salvager as well for the mission runners.
QFT. All of you people saying "it will fill up in 15 minutes, how is it supposed to haul, we need compression...." it's not supposed to be a hauler! If it was it wouldn't have gang links, it's supposed to sit and co-ordinate the mining op, providing a central point and good bonuses, and then after any mining ops, makes for a great utility vessel for moving the minerals, and any other stuff inc. ships around.
Why not just use a normal command ship for the gang bonus's and use the numerous haulers to move the minerals around? Pilots at the op could fly the barges to station themselves.
If the Orca is not meant to be used to hold the ore from a mining op why does it have a tractor beam bonus?
I guess we will just have to wait and see what the dev's intentions for this ship are. I cant see any benefit of using one over the normal barges and haulers set up of a normal op. |
Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.10.26 22:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: shoot me Why not just use a normal command ship for the gang bonus's and use the numerous haulers to move the minerals around? Pilots at the op could fly the barges to station themselves.
If the Orca is not meant to be used to hold the ore from a mining op why does it have a tractor beam bonus?
I guess we will just have to wait and see what the dev's intentions for this ship are. I cant see any benefit of using one over the normal barges and haulers set up of a normal op.
The orca does hold the ore, then tosses it out to haulers via the corp hangar, no jet cans hanging around for ages while the haulers turn up. I admit that overall the job can probably be done by a command ship and haulers just as well, but your command ships is useless industrially between ops, while your orca can move a considerable portion of minerals or w/e to wherever.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:11:00 -
[100]
if you like Orca, you will also love wardecs...
a capital ship in hi sec asks to be called primary
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Patty Loveless
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:58:00 -
[101]
A couple things:
1) Repeat after me, its NOT A CAPITAL ship. It doesn't require Capital Ship skill. Doesn't matter its the first non-capital that has hanger on board. Therefore: Cap-sized Modules should not fit.
2) "It should compress" Yeah, I'd love that too, but this is actually a stand out example CCP playing by the risk vs. reward rule. You wanna compress, get a Rorq and get out of high sec. 99% of the time, you are a single *warp* away from a 50% refine station in high sec (and even low-sec for that matter)
3) Why should O.R.E. or Deep Core Mining Inc care about you inability to move your Battleship in their mining support spec'd ship?
4) Bang for the buck (also see Risk vs Reward). How much 'defense' does a jump freighter have? What about a Rorqual vs. how much it costs? My point is that you have to give up things to get things (or at least you should)
5) 70km tractor beams are fine. You want more than that? Get a rorqual, its got 200km.
The last thing I wanna see is a high sec version of the rorqual and am very happy with the Orca as it is. It will be great as a middle tier of a large op (even in 0.0 with a rorqual as ore target) and it will also be a great small/medium support ship for high sec mining ops while still giving the Rorqual a reason to exist and for people to spend the time and money on it. (Granted, the Rorqual has issues that need to be dealt with, and i think its Risk vs. Reward concerting siege mode and risk vs. reward needs a look at imho)
... said like a true 0.0 carebear |
OMG ItsATrap
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:00:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Dr Prometheus Edited by: Dr Prometheus on 26/10/2008 15:34:51 How about sharing the complete space with the cargobay/corphangar/ship bay?
just a quick note for this idea, hanger space isn't affected by skills, rigs or mods. Also unless they change something, anything in you corp hanger/ship maint is always killed and never drops |
mamolian
Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:04:00 -
[103]
Hmm if the Orca is anything like the Rorqual.. Even if it had 2,000,000 m3 ship maintenance bay.. you still couldn't put your BS in there
What is this stupid ship in all fairness.. A hauler for the macrominers in empire? Can it compress ore? My numbers are probably wrong.. But with my fail math, I managed to get the orca upto around 100km3 of space using expanded cargohold rigs and cargo expander mods.. So this is an upgraded hauler.. yes? |
Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:13:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Opertone if you like Orca, you will also love wardecs...
a capital ship in hi sec asks to be called primary
Seriously, is this like your only argument? and are you just gonna repeat it again and again? For what purpose?
You don't see hundreds of wardecs for a 1bil freighter, so why do you think it's gonna happen to a 500mil orca? If people are gonna war dec a mining corp, they're gonna do it for hulks with a small chance of faction loot, not for a single killmail
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Tyr Vaantau
Amarr Synthetic Frontiers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:17:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Patty Loveless A couple things:
1) Repeat after me, its NOT A CAPITAL ship. It doesn't require Capital Ship skill. Doesn't matter its the first non-capital that has hanger on board. Therefore: Cap-sized Modules should not fit.
Neither do Freighters/Jump-freighters.
I believe the technical term for it is "sub-capital". |
Sprak
We The People United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:54:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Drunken Fury It's not meant to HAUL, it's meant to collect the cans that the miners eject, and allow a hauler to fly between the Orca and the station. This way the haulers don't have to move all over the place, or warp to/from different can bookmarks in space. they just go back and forth between the station and the Orca.
That's actually the best explanation I've heard yet...but i still don't like it. |
Brego Tralowski
Gallente Forever Night
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:04:00 -
[107]
As with all ships, people find other uses for them besides the role they are built for. For example I have mined in a Battleship, in my earlier days, because it gave me a better yield than the retriever.
Not only will I use this ship in my mining ops with my small mining/manufactureing corp, but, I will also use it to travel to my mission system - carrying both my combat and salvager ships, mods, spare ships (repackaged if I need to) and carry it all back home plus the loot and salvage I collect all in one go!
All im saying is - never look a gift horse in the mouth!
And im sure, once released, it'll need tweaking etc by CCP and it'll fit nicely into the game. Perhaps they will introduce freighter interaction, or include compression but for now im really happy that i'll have something different to manufacture/sell/fly.
Thank you CCP! Fly safe all o/ |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.27 07:15:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau
Originally by: Patty Loveless A couple things:
1) Repeat after me, its NOT A CAPITAL ship. It doesn't require Capital Ship skill. Doesn't matter its the first non-capital that has hanger on board. Therefore: Cap-sized Modules should not fit.
Neither do Freighters/Jump-freighters.
I believe the technical term for it is "sub-capital".
And this is even less of a capital ship than those, given that it doesn't even require advanced spaceship command.
Interestingly this retains the precedent that ships with the capital ships skillbook as a requirement can't use gates ;) |
Kathrine Deepwater
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Posted - 2008.10.27 09:02:00 -
[109]
Why does this require mining barge to 5 when it does not mine? Shouldnt the requirement be transport ships or some such? |
Artassaut
Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.27 09:26:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Artassaut on 27/10/2008 09:27:34 People, stop suggesting T2 skills for a T1 ship!
Loving the ship. Will make a great mobile base for ninja-stuffs.
Might as well add that this will probably become the safest ship for moving high-value items through high-sec due to the corp-hanger. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U. |
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.27 09:33:00 -
[111]
clueless people are very clueless
in order to use an Orca you need to be in the belt for the duration of the mining session, this makes your orca a target.
unlike orca, freighters move from one solar system to another very quickly, they warp to zero and often have webbing alts/falcon support. You can not track the movement of the freighter so easily.
simplest WAY to gank a freighter is at the undock point. your point indicates that you haven't been war decced to hell. Well, macro miners do get trouble every day, because they are an open target 23/7, they never move away from the belt. They do live in noob coporations
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.27 10:20:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Kathrine Deepwater Why does this require mining barge to 5 when it does not mine? Shouldnt the requirement be transport ships or some such?
Mining Barge is the racial skill for all ORE ships. The Orca is a ORE ship created together with Deep Core Mining. So it needs the ORE racial ship skill. Simple logic is simple.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Vincent Jarjadian
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Posted - 2008.10.27 17:41:00 -
[113]
No More Can Tippers, LOL
The Hulks can put there ore direct into the corp hanger and the haulers can take direct out of it.
just leave the orca on an AFK account and get half a dozen hulks around it
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.28 12:54:00 -
[114]
we actually need to continue the orca thread
so, i want this big, shiny, rock grinding ship!
and i am pretty happy that my mining character can board it very soon!
would you like anything added on top of what is already there now?
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Stitcher
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2008.10.28 13:40:00 -
[115]
Originally by: shoot me If the Orca is not meant to be used to hold the ore from a mining op why does it have a tractor beam bonus?
1 Ore goes from mining ship to can 2 Ore goes from can to Orca 3 Ore goes from Orca to hauler 4 Ore goes from hauler to station 5 ??? 6 Profit!
Ore does NOT, at any point in the process, go from can to flipper.
Advantages to this system over traditional hauling?
1: bigger "buffer", so the hauler doesn't have to rush as much to keep up 2: gang bonuses 3: keep a bunch of assault frigates or whatnot in the ship array, so that if some griefer does show up, they suddenly find themselves facing a fleet of warships, instead of a fleet of mining barges. 4: Orcas look f***ing cool. -
Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.28 13:48:00 -
[116]
and i want + sentry drone damage bonus, i want to protect my hulks, hulks have limited lock range... sometimes their drones can not reach the NPC.
i don't want + bandwidth + drone bay, 25 mbit and 50 drone bay is pretty cool, but sentry drone damage please
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shoot me
House Harkonnen
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:38:00 -
[117]
I don't think can flipping is a 400mil isk+ problem to most miners.
Filling the SMB with fighting ships doesn't seem like a useful way to use an industrial ship. If barge pilots have to stop mining and swap to a fighting ship then the griefer has already won. Not to mention the fact it would take ages swap ships and risking getting a ship stolen by the griefer during the swap.
At the very least ore compression would add a nice new layer to the large scale mining process. After all this is meant to be a patch for industry and I hope its not going to turn into more of the same but with slightly bigger haulers.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:44:00 -
[118]
Originally by: shoot me Not to mention the fact it would take ages swap ships and risking getting a ship stolen by the griefer during the swap.
Swapping a ship using a SMA is virtually instant and has no risk of being stolen as an empty ship is never floating in space.
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
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Max Essen
Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.28 17:58:00 -
[119]
I will be an early adopter and, at first blush, this looks wonderful and I will be content if it comes out "as is." After reading all prior posts, and discounting the "don't give HiSec CareBears anything" crowd, there are a few modifications I would recommend with some short explanation. I will keep the explanations deliberately short as most of these are covered quite completely earlier in this thread.
Required Skills Increase the Mining Foreman from 3 to 5. This is a Mining Command ship after all, only the better miners should be in it.
Fitting 1. Slots. Increase from 3/3/2 (0 turret / 0 launcher) to 4/4/2 (0 turret / 0 launcher). This will allow the more skilled mining directors the ability to use three mining gang mods and one tractor.
2. cpu / pg. Increase to 550 cpu / 1035 pg to take advantage of additional hi and mid slot.
3. Drone Bay increase capacity to 125m3 and drone bandwidth to 50 Mbit/sec. Allows for some drone versitility without turning it into a drone-carrier.
Carry Capacity 1. Cargo Hold. 30k m3 is just fine. 2. Corp Hanger. Increase size from 30k m3 to 50k m3. This will better allow for mining in non-station systems where the hauler(s) may fall a bit behind. 3. Ship Maintenance Array. Increase to 675k m3 to allow to carry 2 Hulkks and 1 Iteron V.
Yup, that's about it. |
shoot me
House Harkonnen
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Posted - 2008.10.28 19:02:00 -
[120]
Swapping a ship using a SMA is virtually instant and has no risk of being stolen as an empty ship is never floating in space.
Confirmed, I was doing it wrong.
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