Ok. SImple question, can someone answer this: Why do armor repairers repair less than shield boosters? And why does a myrm with repair bonus have to equip 3 reppers just to be able to tank anything properly?

Now GO!! Discuss !!

(Pilots who are here to say "because Gallente suck" can **** off)

Thank you.

Because armour Gëá shields.

Because variety is a good thing, contrary to popular belief

Because armor repairers give 33,3% more repair per capacitor.
Armor repairers are supposed to be cap stable while shield boosters are burst style reps.

deal with it

by comparing an active tank talos to an active tank frigate i was basically saying that in the presence of anything other than a frigate, the talos is pretty much dead ... but ok

Because variety is a good thing, contrary to popular belief

coolbeans, so at the end, both have it's advantages and disadvantages ... nice ...

Anyways, the only effectively armor repper gallente ships that i know are the myrmidon and hyperion because they have the bonus. Does that mean that every other gallente ship should be buffer tank?

I've seen some gallente ships with repairs module but for the majority, ships such as the vexor, thorax, dominix or the megathron, I've never seen anyone fit reppers on them when pvp. Does that mean that these ships are better off buffer tanking and not active tanking?

Have YOU ever fit reppers on these ships when pvping? If so then how did that work?

(I tried active tanking a Talos ... it's the equivalent of active tanking a frigate)

While I admit I may be EFT warrioring a bit, you cannot deny the depressing number for a dual armor repairer tank compared to weapon DPS numbers that can come out these days. This is why you see a shield buffer brutix, now. It really sickens me to see it.

"Kil2 Megathron" with 2x1600 plates + 1 LRAR. Fits Ions, Electrons and a large neut in the high slots.

The Hyperion has enough slots for both damage mods AND reppers ... so why not armor tank it? Shield tanking it would only increase the enormous sig res that it already has and fill up the med slots that could be used for tackling mod ...

"Kil2 Megathron" with 2x1600 plates + 1 LRAR. Fits Ions, Electrons and a large neut in the high slots.

The thing is, the Hyp really doesn't have enough lows for a competitive number of damage mods+dual rep. The extra mid is nice for injectors, but it would want one more low for an "ideal" dual rep/damage layout and would most definitely need another low for a full buffer fit.

This is actually the case on many Gallente active armor-bonused ships: they are short a low but long on mids. This forces either a dual rep bleeder setup, which sometimes works, or a shield buffer gank setup, which also sometimes works.

I'm actually fond of the options it presents. The major issue comes in when those ships need to fit armor resist tanks (for work with Logis). They lack the lows to get resists up and lack the bonus to resists that Amarr tank-bonused ships have, meaning Logis have to work that much harder to keep them topped off.

Does this call for a nerf then? ... Anyone ... I say Gallente ships needs to fixed ... by CCP.

What would you nerf?

It seems the most common suggestion floating around these days is to give Gallente (and Caldari) ships a bonus to incoming remote reps in line with their self-repping bonuses. I'm ambivalent.

Caldari? I think you mean minmatar. Caldari gets a resistance bonus which is the best defensive bonus you can get.

armor tankers get more slots to tank since mids are free for props, tackle and injectors.

deal with it

What would you nerf

Shield tankers get more slots to tank since low slots are for damage mods, pop mods and TEs.

It's a bit misleading to speak about "Gallente ships" when referring to such different beasts as Brutix and Myrm.

Brutix is commonly shield tanked, because that way you can pump +1200dps out of it, while being reasonably mobile. True, it lacks the critical 6th slot to pull off a proper active tank, and by changing the rep bonus to a resist bonus could turn the Brutix into an interesting fleet BC. It is currently a wasted bonus imo, still some people fly it with reppers.

Myrmidon, on the other hand, does a ******* stellar active tank. Some people like the triplerep (a bit more tank at the expense of another web/other ewar), I prefer the dual rep. Both versions tank +500dps at worst, dual rep goes to 750dps against explosive dmg with Standard Exile. I love it, it's a boss. Check out Will Adama's latest episode in Eve is Easy for an example of what it can do.

I dropped a dual rep Hype against Tuskers the other night, and while the reps it pulled looked incredible (was with links and S.Exile), I'm not super convinced about it's performance, I felt it needs a bit more buffer- one more slot would do wonders, I'd probably put a plate on it and gimp the guns. Mind you their gang had a Mega and a Hype among bcs, so the incoming dps wasn't exactly minmatar-lolclass either.

Ishtar, Mega and Domi, like mentioned by Hrett, are not bonused ships but still work well with reppers. In general I think active armor is more common than active shield in PVP.

Active armor tanking frigs also works very well, they are also super fun to fly

Remember to try the ships on Tranquility before making blanket statements

Armor reps are more efficient but repair less.

Shield boosters can be made more efficient with a shield booster amplifier and with core defense capacitor safeguards.

Armor reps can be made more efficient with energized adaptive nano plating and auxilliary nano pumps.

By the time you get your electrons in range, your fat ass is still dead.

You talk about how amazing they are with dual armor repairers, but then you use drugs and people with gang links. As it has been stated somewhere in the forums you can get a nearly 700 DPS tank out of the thorax with gang links, and doesn't include drugs. Does that mean armor tanks are amazing? Absolutely not. Try that thorax out by itself without drugs and see how pitiful it becomes. Most people won't be using gang links or drugs to increase their tank. Gang links, drugs, and hardwirings should be bonuses, not requirements to tank decently.

Look at this pretty disappointing brutix:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/125/brutixexample.jpg
I'd say this is a pretty typical fit of how the brutix was meant to be flown. As you can see it has the level 5 pilot. Keep in mind that hardly anyone maxes every skill for every single module on the ship. In actuality this brutix will do worse on a normal pilot. It doesn't include the massive bonuses with gang links, drugs, or cybernetics 5 implants (7%). A rig slot must be sacrificed to give powergrid just to fit this simple fit. There's nothing crazy about it. The brutix simply lacks the powergrid to get a normal fit on it.

With multiple repairers you can cheat and keep one repairer overloaded for as long as you have navy cap booster 800s. When one is close to breaking you can set it back to normal operation and overload the other repairer. I included that bonus in that fit. In addition to helping the short term tank, it also provides more efficiency for long term as overloading gives 10% bonus to repair amount to that module. However, the armor repair amount is still disappointing even with all level 5s. If you want more efficiency you can replace that accelerator with another aux nano pump, although the short term tank will suffer a little more. Three armor repairers isn't practical on this ship, and probably isn't even possible. It doesn't even have enough powergrid for two. There really isn't enough low slots to use hardeners, so on average, EANMs are best.

Have you flown that fit?

Oh, I think ~1200dps~ is plenty good reason to fly it shield gank!

How can I fly that fit? I'm only a month old.

Needing to put a light shield buffer on it to get 1200 DPS shows how broken the ship really is. I think you seriously overestimate that 400 DPS tank. It's quite pitiful given how high damage can get. It's rather silly, but that 1200 DPS brutix will melt this proper brutix in no time at all. You appear to be rather excited that a ship can be flown completely improperly and put out such a completely absurd amount of damage. But, why use this ship for absurd DPS when the talos can do even more? This game is headed in the wrong direction.

Sure, the myrmidon can start tanking decently once you put three repairers on it, put electrons in the high, and put dual cap boosters in the mids. I suppose you could put any turrets in the high since the turrets aren't bonused. But again, to use that much powergrid and capacitor to have a moderate tank is a bit disappointing.

As stated, armor != shields.

-Most active tanked armor ships have the slot-layout, cap, and grid to fit dual armor reps. Most shield ships can only fit one booster effectively.

-Armor tanking gets an oversize plate (1600mm), the highest shield extender (large) is comparable to the 800mm plate.

-Shield tanking gets an oversized booster (XL booster) and a shield boost amplifier (I think its ~25% bonus to rep).

-Active shield tanking is more cap-intensive and reps at the beginning of the cycle. Active armor tanking reps at the end of the cycle, but is much more cap efficient.

-Armor tanking doesn't use up utility midslots, shield tanking typically does. Active shield tanking (usually) doesn't use up potential damage mods in the low slots.

-Armor gets more variety in their resist mods, getting passive invulns (Energized and non-energized adaptive nanos), passive damage-specific passive hardners (Energized and non-energized), and active hardners. Shield gets active invulns and hardners that are cap dependant but stronger than armor equivalent, but only one type of passive hardner.


So yeah, armor and shield active tanking are quite different, as are the slot layouts and fitting specs of the ships that use both tanks.

You did read my post? My point was really that you cannot talk about "they", as active tanking works spectacularly on Myrmidon, while on Brutix the crazy amount of deeps is generally seen as more desirable.

'm completely against your idea that ships should have just a single "proper way to fly". Fitting ships is huge part of the sandbox, why do you sound like you wish to take that freedom away? I love tweaking fits and see what I can make them do. And I wouldn't call my gank Brutix improper, it's... indecent Twisted

this thread is a rant


taking links, drugs, implants and faction into account you get about the same active tanks on both armor and shields

So wrong man, just so wrong.

the problem with these active rep boats (mrym and Hyperion) is so numerous for PVP its almost worthless except very small gang/1v1 kind of stuff. Which is why buffer (either shield or armor is used.) Which also means 1 of the 2 ship bonuses for the ship is wasted, which makes them less than optimal and thus far less flown. If there is anything I wish CCP would do is get rid of these armor rep bonuses for these two ships. But anyways...

1) Fact: You really can't kite in a armor repping Mrym or Hyp so you will be fighting in close. This also really has to be done for weapons choice and the slow speed of drones (particularly the heavies). If you try to be clever and try to put long range guns and active rep presents some serious fitting issues and for the myrm makes the drones worthless. (and sentries are no solution as they suck for most pvp situations)

2) So that said a 3 rep mrym if fully gang bonused/exile boosted etc is decent until 1-2 ships put neuts on it. Even with the dual cap boosters you can find yourself struggling. And when your cargo is empty, you die. (ie why they are always fit with auto cannons-no cap usage). The dps of a triple rep mrym is rather meh...
3) And you will be in neut range because of point 1. Heavy neuts absolutely kill this set up and 1-2 high alpha ships on the field will rip it to pieces (tornado for example or even 2-3 destroyers)
4) The hyp is even more ineffective because you are going to use hybrids on it. So now you have cap hungry guns, cap hungry mid slots, you have to mwd to get into range, you have to turn armor reps on, its sig radius is huge so you take max damage from torps etc. So cap is a issue and then 1-2 ships puts a neut on you and your dead in the water. Plus the hyp doesn't really have the low slots for a proper armor tank with active reps. I won't even get into its pathetic drone capability. Thus its the baby seal of the BS fleet. At the end of the day, blasters need to not use CAP before any of these boats will work... its just a mess. Anyways the long list of how these boats are broken are almost too long to list.

Because variety is a good thing, contrary to popular belief

Passive shield tanking causes your signature radious to bloat, which has serious consequences.

As far as I know, armour plates add mass to your ship, which makes it slow. So shield ships are faster but easier to hit.

I've found serious trouble keeping cap up against neuts particularly when 3-4 canes run the mediums on you and catch you at a bad cycle point. I've flown a Mrym almost exclusively for 1 1/2 years so I do feel somewhat versed in it. I've particularly noticed it having a great deal of difficulty against the high alpha boats, when 3-4 tornado' primary you.

Ok, I read people writing up there that they fit both ion and electron on a Hype. Didn't exactly understand why because I've never flown one myself so I went ahead and fitted one in Pyfa. Now I know why they do that ... because there isn't even enough power grid to fit a full set of Ions ... Seriously? Are you ******* kidding me CCP?

Take a good hard look at this http://cl.ly/1C342B0Q2c0I2B0Q3g1Y
Even at Level 5, you can't fit a full rack of Ions? Why? What's the purpose of the 5% bonus to large hybrid turrets anymore if you can't even fit it to the optimal potential? To top it all off, there's that active armor tanking problem ... And that's a pretty damn basic dual rep fitting for a Hype that attempts to utilize the 2 bonus that it's given. I honestly don't know how much simpler that fit can be.

omfg, no wonder no one flies a Hyperion.

You know what CCP, I like this game very much for what a player can do and accomplish and also for the people that you can interact with but to be honest, I think that you fail as game developers on the part of fixing and improving the game. I hope you're reading this CCP ,.!..

coolbeans, so at the end, both have it's advantages and disadvantages ... nice ...

Anyways, the only effectively armor repper gallente ships that i know are the myrmidon and hyperion because they have the bonus. Does that mean that every other gallente ship should be buffer tank?

I've seen some gallente ships with repairs module but for the majority, ships such as the vexor, thorax, dominix or the megathron, I've never seen anyone fit reppers on them when pvp. Does that mean that these ships are better off buffer tanking and not active tanking?

Have YOU ever fit reppers on these ships when pvping? If so then how did that work?

(I tried active tanking a Talos ... it's the equivalent of active tanking a frigate)

????? dual armor rep domi???????

Please. The Dominix is not for pvp.

I really hope you're trolling...

I can comment on it because this isn't my first character. I also played from 2006-2010, and I can say that damage wasn't quite this ridiculous back then. Active tanking didn't get nerfed, damage got buffed. That's why it's falling behind. I mean 1400 DPS on a battlecruiser? That's just stupid to me. I have always despised buffer nano fits and I was glad when CCP changed speed. Now it appears to be coming back just because damage has increased so much.

After shield explosive and armor EM resistances were lowered a bit I thought damage was fine for all turrets. Now I hear that projectiles and hybrids were buffed, a tech 3 cruiser was released that's extremely expensive but is a very powerful ship, and now a tier 3 battlecruiser was introduced that's the size of a cruiser capable of more firepower than a battleship. You say this is a sandbox, but now I cannot do what I want to do which is actively armor tank effectively. It's not even including the fact that so many ships are using neuts as well.

Oh, I have also always despised FotM ships as well just because they're good and easy. It appears that the drake and hurricane is WAY overused. I'm not going to get into a high DPS talos, nanoed, and shield buffer fit just because it's popular and good. I'll be flying ships that counter it. The same goes for that gank brutix.

I really hope you're trolling...

I don't fly anything because it's popular or good, I fly what I like- hey, I'm a pure Gallente pilot and won't fly anything else :D I fly (or try, I'm not yet used to that kind of speed) the Talos because it's ******* sexy!

I'm not even troliing :)))) Please show me that a Domi can pvp. I would love to see that.

why does one expect armor and shield being the same? Those are 2 different things for a reason.
As others stated, shields != armor!!

Why would you think domi cant pvp?

Low tank, low dps, slow, drone bonus is useless.

6/10 You almost got me there ;)

I'm not even troliing :)))) Please show me that a Domi can pvp. I would love to see that.

What is this I don't even?

I trust you're a student, not a teacher, in IVY?

No one is expecting them to be the same. The point that this thread is trying to make is that one is somewhat inferior to the other. Specifically, what I'm trying to say is that, while both types have repair modules, the armor repairer is very inefficient while the shield booster is.

No one is expecting them to be the same. The point that this thread is trying to make is that one is somewhat inferior to the other. Specifically, what I'm trying to say is that, while both types have repair modules, the armor repairer is very inefficient while the shield booster is.

OMG how can i say this?? I'm not trolling :))

Please show me otherwise, the Domi can't pvp !! It's for missioning :))

Armor tankers get bonuses from ship modifications (remote reppers), drugs, implants that are not available to shield reppers.

Go here, scroll down to 'Kessah' and enjoy. I am not sure which one features his dual rep domi, but watching them all cant hurt.

In fact, here is a version of the fit from an excellent pvper, blobbed and killed by EUNI, no less.

And I'm EUNI, class of '07. ;)

Go here, scroll down to 'Kessah' and enjoy. I am not sure which one features his dual rep domi, but watching them all cant hurt.

In fact, here is a version of the fit from an excellent pvper, blobbed and killed by EUNI, no less.

And I'm EUNI, class of '07. ;)

Now here's another question: Do Minmatar ships have flaws? Because I can only name its strengths

1.Projectile turrets don't need cap
2.Turrets can range from close-range to med-range without loosing DPS because of high falloff
3.Good tank
4.High dps
5.Fast

1.Projectile turrets don't need capt

2.Turrets can range from close-range to med-range without loosing DPS because of high fallofft

3.Good tankt

4.High dpst

5.Fast

BC speeds:

Tier 3

1. Tornado 281 m/s | 6.27 s
2. Talos 275 m/s | 6.06 s
3. Oracle 250 m/s | 6.56 s
4. Naga 244 ms/s | 6.81 s

Tier 1 & 2

1. Hurricane / Cyclone 206 m/s | 8.23 s
2. Brutix 194 m/s | 8.29 s
3. Prophecy / Harbinger 188 m/s | 8.89 s
4. Myrmidon 181 m/s | 8.73 s
5. Ferox 175 m/s | 7.82 s
6. Drake 175 m/s | 8.23 s


So slow, omg.

Not everybody flies minmatar and you cannot compare an event like the alliance tournament with pvp on tranquility. Minmatar often fight at optimal + half falloff. This HALVES their EFT DPS.

Half is quite a bit actually! Try flying minmatar ships and then come back and share your experiences.

Edit for terrible spelling

Now here's another question: Do Minmatar ships have flaws? Because I can only name its strengths

1.Projectile turrets don't need cap
2.Turrets can range from close-range to med-range without loosing DPS because of high falloff
3.Good tank
4.High dps
5.Fast

Thx Roime, just wanted to ask if Sonny and I are talking about the same Gallente Ships

Optimal + half falloff is more like 80% damage. Optimal + falloff is 50% (less a bit).

Now just come and tell me how armor tanks are bad.

As mentionned though, since this game has ship with such high damage potential, you need to figure out a way for your active tanks to be able to soak all that damage, and links are there for that. Comparing active shield with armor shield though is rather pointless since they both get pretty much the same values (when shield is using crystals).

I don't want to sound harsh, Sonny, but we are not fully convinced about the validity of your experience as basis for any kind of arguments.

So, please post the fits you are referring to, and we can better judge your statement "armour tanking is clearly inferior".

The facts that you are lumping all Gallente ships together (a race with drone boats and blaster cannons that differ from each other like night and day) and look surprised when told that Gallente is actually nearly tied with Minmatar in terms of speed, might suggest that you could be talking.. you know, out of your ass.

According to your argument, are you saying that we should all buffer tank when we don't have link or pills?

As said before, you made 2 mistakes:

Minmatar ships have rather unimpressive tanks and if they want to fight at long range, that means fighting in fall-off and losing significant DPS.

According to your argument, are you saying that we should all buffer tank when we don't have link or pills?



Please don't add variables to the comparison. Without pills, links, hardwires, implants, etc ... (only taking skills, ship modules and ship bonus into account) armor repping is clearly inferior to shield boosting. 3 reppers with a set of repair supportive rigs (1x Auxiliary 2x nanobot) can only tank about as much as a single shield booster. At least from my experience.

What I am saying is that for a pure active tank to be worth it over a buffer tank, you need to be in a situation where the incoming DPS is low enough/your tank is big enough, for you to be able to put enough rep cycle to account for the loss in ehp when compared to a buffer tank. With that in mind, and the fact that theres currently a lot of high dps ships in the game, and the fact that it will not happen too often that you will face only 1 or 2 opponents, yes, buffer tank is in 90% of situations prefered to active tanks.

Links and pills have such an effect on active tank though, that they can make the requirements ive set up earlier be attained easier.

For example, a LSB cyclone, without pills and without links, but with HG crystal, gets around 500dps tank. Now 500 dps is pretty much what a single BC is capable of pulling, and the situation where youre fighting only 1 bc will be rather rare. On the other hand, a HG crystal, blue pill, linked LSB cyclone can tank up to 1400 dps, thats around 3 bc. A 3 bc gang is something you have a lot more chance to encounter.

So while active tanking without pills and links is still viable, you are extremely limited in the situations where it is actually better then a buffer tank.


For the second part of your comment, if you compare 1 module for 1 module, yes shield boosting is superior to armor tanking, the difference is that you can fit multiple armor repaires, and since armor tanking uses lowslot you can fit cap boosters.

Now just try to EFT a proper Cylone and Compare it to a myrmidon in EFT, no pills, no links, no hardwirings, and you will see that the myrmidon easily surpasses the DPS tank of the cyclone.

There are some situations where you can fit a stupid pulse tank on a shield ship (ex. LSB cyclone), but that is so goddamn cap unstable that comparing the pulse value to the value you achieve with a dual cap booster triple rep myrm is highly irrelevant.

The only way for a shield booster to have the same stats as a dual rep armor boat is to use crystals.

Links and pills have nothing to do here because they boost the efficiency of both in the same way (pill is both 20% for standard, and link both approximately double your dps tank).

You should be comparing the cyclone to the brutix and not the myrmidon. The myrmidon is a tier 2 BC while the cyclone is a tier 1 BC. A dual armor repairer brutix is a joke and still struggles on powergrid.

What I am saying is that for a pure active tank to be worth it over a buffer tank, you need to be in a situation where the incoming DPS is low enough/your tank is big enough, for you to be able to put enough rep cycle to account for the loss in ehp when compared to a buffer tank. With that in mind, and the fact that theres currently a lot of high dps ships in the game, and the fact that it will not happen too often that you will face only 1 or 2 opponents, yes, buffer tank is in 90% of situations prefered to active tanks.

Links and pills have such an effect on active tank though, that they can make the requirements ive set up earlier be attained easier.

For example, a LSB cyclone, without pills and without links, but with HG crystal, gets around 500dps tank. Now 500 dps is pretty much what a single BC is capable of pulling, and the situation where youre fighting only 1 bc will be rather rare. On the other hand, a HG crystal, blue pill, linked LSB cyclone can tank up to 1400 dps, thats around 3 bc. A 3 bc gang is something you have a lot more chance to encounter.

So while active tanking without pills and links is still viable, you are extremely limited in the situations where it is actually better then a buffer tank.


For the second part of your comment, if you compare 1 module for 1 module, yes shield boosting is superior to armor tanking, the difference is that you can fit multiple armor repaires, and since armor tanking uses lowslot you can fit cap boosters.

Now just try to EFT a proper Cylone and Compare it to a myrmidon in EFT, no pills, no links, no hardwirings, and you will see that the myrmidon easily surpasses the DPS tank of the cyclone.

There are some situations where you can fit a stupid pulse tank on a shield ship (ex. XLSB cyclone), but that is so goddamn cap unstable that comparing the pulse value to the value you achieve with a dual cap booster triple rep myrm is highly irrelevant.

The only way for a shield booster to have the same stats as a dual rep armor boat is to use crystals.

Links and pills have nothing to do here because they boost the efficiency of both in the same way (pill is both 20% for standard, and link both approximately double your dps tank).

Honestly, I didn't start this thread to have anyone criticize about my experience or skills. I started this to gather different ideas and opinions about armor reps vs shield boosters. The opinion on MY part is that armor reps are inferior. I'm here to be proven wrong but so far none of the posts have convinced me. And don't take me wrong, I'm not raging or anything, I find all the posts very educational and informative. Keep it coming.

sonny as for ur comment b4 about matar ships being most common in combat for thier dmg, range, speed, and fitting. it has more to do with the blob factor then anything else. matar ships can pick thier fights better then gallente ships DURING the engagement because of thier speed and falloff. gallente ship have to commit to the fight more then matar ships do depending on the fits being used.

ie a vaga or nano cane can shoot at a bait ship, determine if he can take on said ships the come to spring trap and gtfo if needed. gallente ships like the myrm thats dual repped cant do the same as its armor tanked and it needs to be closer to apply the dmg.

That is true, but there is a new ship that fills that hole in Gallente line-up, and makes me very happy (this is now a super versatile race indeed)- the blaster Talos. Faster than most common BCs, agile as fox with one Nano and very nice damage projection with Null, while having the face-melt option with Void. I have to learn this fighting style from the ground up, and it's not a forgiving, beginner ship with that tiny tank, but it's certainly cool to have a viable Gal ship for nano gangs.

There was a time when I felt rather bad about having chosen Gallente (blame reading these forums and not knowing enough) but now when I'm able to fly the ships to their max potential, I'd never change this variety and flavor for anything. It feels awesome to have an excellent choice for any small gang situation in the SMA, and to know that success or failure is only up to me and my skills