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Yaay
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 00:57:00 -
[421]
Edited by: Yaay on 04/01/2009 00:57:18
 Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Luckyduck
Actually, it was 20 guys, Ratting, Mining, Plexing and low end moon mining and reactions. As for the entity, It really doesn't matter who it was.
Yes, it matters who the entity was. You're gaining benefit from protection in many different ways
Quote:
Hell, I've spent 1 day ratting solo and made 450 mil... 150 off bounties, 150 off loot, 150 off rigs approximately
Define "1 day". Because if you're claiming an 8 hour day then you're saying you make 56m isk/hour ratting. Which is really impressive and doesn't mesh with my experience or that of anyone else i know. And of course, 20 people doing it would require at least 10 systems.
And if you mean 24 hours then you make 18.75m isk/hour ratting, which is below empire level 4 rates.
Of course these numbers assumed you never took a break or were interrupted for any reason and so are a bit lower than the actual isk/hour you would have to achieve in order to make that kind of money.
about 5-6 hours of actual game time, hard to pin down time b/c it was over christmas spread out between family events.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.04 02:01:00 -
[422]
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/01/2009 02:05:09
So you're saying that ratting in 0.0 is 75m isk/hour?
Seriously?
edit: Assuming your 150/150/150 numbers were correct then you
Killed, looted, and salvaged a 1m isk battleship that dropped 1m isk in loot and 1m isk in salvage every 2.4 minutes for 6 hours of gametime.
Color me skeptical.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.04 09:51:00 -
[423]
Speaking from personal experience, 20 mil an hour is what you get ratting in 0.0
I'd imagine that the paranoid "100km above belt point" Ravens make half of that.
That's not counting faction spawns.
There's no need to buff 0.0 spawns.
Create a game mechanic that allows small gangs to steal whatever moon POS produces. Not all at once, but like a slow process, almost like mining. The POS owners should get alert eve-mail that someone's stealing their stuff so they can come defend it.
If you have that, you get more roaming gangs, more pvp, and a chance for non-mega alliance people to make some decent money. There's no reason why the mega alliances should safely pocket all the moon stuff to themselves, without ever putting their jump bridge using jump freighters at risk.
If they want to own all those 100s of moons, they better be ready to actively defend them. And not the way it works now, where they leave and forget, without worry
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thesonarnet
0ccam's Razor
UNLeashed Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.04 10:41:00 -
[424]
.
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Zerb Cerus
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Posted - 2009.01.04 11:46:00 -
[425]
One lvl4 agent can supply at least 300 pilots with 25+M isk/h without any problems.
(with 1 account, T1 BS and without faction fitting -> maybe 40+M with faction fit Marauder?)
Now put that 300 guys into an AVERAGE 0.0 system.
Try to imagine that .... ROFL
+if you dont want to play eve in singleplayer-mode you can run missions in small gangs, but more than 1 ship shooting on the same belt-rat-spawn is a waste of time.
I know you can do exploration ... did it myself buf if you factor in ALL the time (time for ganging-up, scanning hauling loot, and not only the time you spent in good plexes), isk/h & fun/h is not so shiny.
=> /supported
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slip66
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 18:12:00 -
[426]
Edited by: slip66 on 04/01/2009 18:14:27
I agree something needs to be changed and like some of the ideas.
What about just making the sun the SOV claiming point? You have to have a special pos which:
* can be a nice isk sink
* could interfere with DDs when in close proximity to the sun only.
you would still need pos at moons for logistics/mining.
Even so I like the two main points Darius posted from the meetings and think they are steps in the right direction.
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Yaay
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:20:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/01/2009 02:05:09
So you're saying that ratting in 0.0 is 75m isk/hour?
Seriously?
edit: Assuming your 150/150/150 numbers were correct then you
Killed, looted, and salvaged a 1m isk battleship that dropped 1m isk in loot and 1m isk in salvage every 2.4 minutes for 6 hours of gametime.
Color me skeptical.
exactly what i'm saying.
It's the Economy Stupid |
eWrath
Caldari
Revenent Defence Corperation
The Omni Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.04 19:32:00 -
[428]
Originally by: slip66
Edited by: slip66 on 04/01/2009 18:14:27
I agree something needs to be changed and like some of the ideas.
What about just making the sun the SOV claiming point? You have to have a special pos which:
* can be a nice isk sink
* could interfere with DDs when in close proximity to the sun only.
you would still need pos at moons for logistics/mining.
Even so I like the two main points Darius posted from the meetings and think they are steps in the right direction.
After reading some of this thread, I was going to suggest this... simply borrow the bunker mechanisms from Faction Warfare, make it as a new player-anchorable structure, works like a POS, but with much more defensive capabilities, the rest fits perfectly in this perspective.
That should be the first step to take, in my opinion.
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Beware miners with guns! |
Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.05 08:05:00 -
[429]
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 05/01/2009 08:05:51
Originally by: Yaay
exactly what i'm saying.
In that case Delve's truesec status is even more wacky than I previously thought, because 75m/hour is not even close to representative of what the rest of 0.0 pays out (try ratting in Tenerifis or Esoteria, even in good truesec you're looking at 20m/hour on a very good day, once you've spent time clearing out the crap spawns).
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Orb Vex
Colonizing and Terraforming of Planets
R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.05 11:27:00 -
[430]
Edited by: Orb Vex on 05/01/2009 11:35:01
We want to do our job 
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Isidien Madcap
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.06 08:04:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 05/01/2009 08:05:51
Originally by: Yaay
exactly what i'm saying.
In that case Delve's truesec status is even more wacky than I previously thought, because 75m/hour is not even close to representative of what the rest of 0.0 pays out (try ratting in Tenerifis or Esoteria, even in good truesec you're looking at 20m/hour on a very good day, once you've spent time clearing out the crap spawns).
Not to mention that that's only 1 person making that amount (whether it's 75m or 20m) per system. That's not really all that useful or interesting given the number of people you actually need to hold space or even maintain a presence in 0.0. Killing pirates in belts does not scale.
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Isidien |
Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2009.01.06 16:25:00 -
[432]
Not supported, because the eve not just 0.0
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.06 16:29:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Not supported, because the eve not just 0.0
What? Since Eve is not just 0.0 we should not make 0.0 better?
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2009.01.06 16:43:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Not supported, because the eve not just 0.0
What? Since Eve is not just 0.0 we should not make 0.0 better?
Empire players equal with 0,0 player.
Not less or not more. This is an another thread, where the CSM want to give more economic and another advantage/prefer to smallest group of eve (9% population of eve live in 0.0)
Enough from the favouritism somebody, anyone else plays too with the game, so wrong, if discounts, when provided to one of the sides only any of the reasonable requests of the other side are rejected.
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.01.06 16:56:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Not supported, because the eve not just 0.0
What? Since Eve is not just 0.0 we should not make 0.0 better?
Empire players equal with 0,0 player.
Not less or not more. This is an another thread, where the CSM want to give more economic and another advantage/prefer to smallest group of eve (9% population of eve live in 0.0)
Enough from the favouritism somebody, anyone else plays too with the game, so wrong, if discounts, when provided to one of the sides only any of the reasonable requests of the other side are rejected.
Yes, not supported too
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.06 19:21:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Not supported, because the eve not just 0.0
What? Since Eve is not just 0.0 we should not make 0.0 better?
Empire players equal with 0,0 player.
Not less or not more. This is an another thread, where the CSM want to give more economic and another advantage/prefer to smallest group of eve (9% population of eve live in 0.0)
Enough from the favouritism somebody, anyone else plays too with the game, so wrong, if discounts, when provided to one of the sides only any of the reasonable requests of the other side are rejected.
Why do you think only 9% of the population lives in 0.0?
I would say its because the average individual can make more money running lvl 4 missions in empire. Most 0.0 dwellers have empire alts as well just do do business in empire without trouble (even mission), so be careful with your statistic. Just because 9% of the characters are out in 0.0 does not mean that only 9% of the people who play eve play in 0.0.
And also would that be an indicator to you that 0.0 is actually not balanced with empire? If 0.0 was balanced wouldnt you expect to see half of the eve population out there (or maybe at least 1/3rd). 9% to me is a problem. You might as well argue for the removal of 0.0 Hun.
What people in this thread want is increased rewards for their increased risk, not favoritism for 0.0 players. Right now under the current system the average 0.0 dweller makes less isk/h than your lvl 4 missioner with the added risks and obligation of 0.0 living. Yes you might be able to make 20m and hour or 75m an hour, but then you spend 6 hours an an alliance op to defend your space losing 2 battleships in this fight or that one (costing you 40mil after insurance, or 22b (hi molle)). And every hour you spend fighting to defend your space, someone in empire is still doing a lvl 4 mission, maybe to be annoyed once or twice a year by a suicide ganker.
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Yaay
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:19:00 -
[437]
Edited by: Yaay on 06/01/2009 21:20:14
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 05/01/2009 08:05:51
Originally by: Yaay
exactly what i'm saying.
In that case Delve's truesec status is even more wacky than I previously thought, because 75m/hour is not even close to representative of what the rest of 0.0 pays out (try ratting in Tenerifis or Esoteria, even in good truesec you're looking at 20m/hour on a very good day, once you've spent time clearing out the crap spawns).
I've ratted in fountain, curse, stain and other areas doing the same. Oh and it was a 17 belt system with multiple ratters in system.
Of the 4, fountain was by far the worst hitting only about 56 mil/hr, but in fairness, it was a 12 belt system.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:29:00 -
[438]
Yaay:
I would like to see documented proof, which includes the # of accounts you were using to achieve this amount. In addition subtract profits gained from manufacturing rigs, the only value that should be included is rat bounties, and market value of the loot and slavage recieved. For your time quotient you have to include the time it takes you to get to a station with it. Also you must include the time in percentage form to which you were not ratting on average due to hostiles. A snapshot of your wallet with 1 hour of ratting would help as well.
If you are going to keep repeating this, you might as well back it up with a bit more than our trust in what you say on a forum.
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Ebon Galant
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Posted - 2009.01.06 22:03:00 -
[439]
Ok I am going to suggest something that I think a lot of people are going to hate, some will like but I have not seen on the forums so far but maybe it has. Make soverenty linked to kill mails. ..... This way you take soverenty away from POSes and force PVP. Kills would count towards your alliance and your corps hold on the system. Like capturing a flag in other games. Let the surrounding systems give bonuses to holding your current system. So say you have your one system and it is connected to 4 others those 4 give bonus to the current system to keep it from falling. This way you are not constantly fight with an empire that is dying from the inside out but the bigger you get the harder it is for you to maintain the borders.
Have influence based on what you are flying the size of the gang and what you kill. You get more influence for killing things while in smaller gangs, ships ect. and less for the other way around. Like accumulating points an a kill board.
The intended purpose would be to stop POS spam, get people back into smaller ships and gangs. Making PVP cheaper for everyone. Hopefully POSes will be used more as staging grounds, ocassional safe spots and more for industry instead of what it is now.
I am hopefull that the proposed minning changes of moving belts to the dungeon system will help to fix some of the profitability issues. But I also think that for the long run yields are going to have to be increased in ores/refinable materials so that as EVE grows the supplies can keep up with demand. Perhaps these higher yield ores need to be restricted to just low/null sec.
Coming from someone who has 1 acct and has yet to fly one, I beleive capitals are a royal pain for there use. And are to vulnerable by themselves. I beleive 0.0 will benefit if they were allowed to be more versitile and were more self sufficient. Weather that by changing how they move around or how much they can carry or a change in there fundamental purposes. But for some reason I don't think it is right that I should need alts, multiple accounts, and a corp support system so that I can afford the fuel needed to hide until I am in a fleet to fight. Just does not seem right to me. And it excludes so many players because they do not have the time to spend all day on a game. I do not have to have multiple accounts for other games to enjoy everything they have to offer, why should I for this one? (sorry for the sidetrack)
Back to Soverenty, (my info is a little hazy here wheather they currently do or not) but have capitals help towards soverenty on top of the fights, but only while in space and visible. And the larger the capital the more it counts so Titans would be the most the MOM's and then the Carriers and Dreads. This way they could be used to stengthen one area or hold onother that is about to fall.
Just my suggestions/observation/rant
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Ammath
Mentis Fidelis
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2009.01.07 18:22:00 -
[440]
I was in the FF 0.0 panels about this and after with Darius. I think these ideas are key but also adding in a few other things missing detail in the OP...
Sov Improvements, simple upgrades, add modules to the sov-holding poses that improve the value of the space with sov-level prerequisited.. maybe "deep space scanners" that improve the quality or number of belts... or increase the number and/or respawn of explorables and encounters.. maybe "convoy beacons" that attract more pirate activity to the area lowing the systems true-sec.
Having these as modules for the sov-holding poses means that if you lose the sov-poses then the improvements go boom... this is important because it encourages people to hold the sov for longer (maybe even have 10 levels??) and REALLY want to defend it... make these upgrades VERY expensive as well meaning alliances will likely focus on developing their core areas and all their peripheral space become less important. Potentially opening more areas for other alliances to move in.
A lot of these assumptions would need to be proven out with metrics that probably only CCP has based on gameplay patters and so forth...
But improvable space means less of a need for vast reaches of space, usually empty, unoccupied, and sitting idle....
Thumbs up Darius for posting the OP.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.07 19:15:00 -
[441]
Linking sov to killmails will lead to abuse. People will be killing their own alts in noob ships by the dozens.
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Ebon Galant
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Posted - 2009.01.07 21:34:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Linking sov to killmails will lead to abuse. People will be killing their own alts in noob ships by the dozens.
Well yes I suppose people would. The only idea i can think of is to keep people of the same alliance gaining points towards soverenty through kill mails. Giving even more importance to capitals in soverenty.
But that still leaves alts out of the alliance and all i can say to that is that make it unprofitable to do so. I mean if its truely an alt all the isk comes from the same person.
hmmm... but i can see both causing problems with corps leaving alliances and newer players. Because I think the only way to keep it unprofitable would be to alter insurance, why outfit the noob ship you are going to kill.
How about scaling it so that the smaller the 1vs1's are the less you get while still getting more for be smaller than the other guy. say like frig vs. cruser = BC vs BC that way abuse is undoable while still incouraging(sp?) smaller ships and fights. |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.07 21:45:00 -
[443]
forget it, the whole idea is rather shaky and won't be considered seriously. I'm not in favor of it
System sov should definitely be about anchored structures. There are many different paths to take in that direction
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teji
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.08 18:06:00 -
[444]
Supported.
Also balance the loot tables between the rat types as well. NPC/Delve/Fountain truesec is so broken compared with the rest of 0.0. I wonder why this hasn't been fixed :tinfoil:
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.08 21:29:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Empire players equal with 0,0 player.
Not less or not more. This is an another thread, where the CSM want to give more economic and another advantage/prefer to smallest group of eve (9% population of eve live in 0.0)
Enough from the favouritism somebody, anyone else plays too with the game, so wrong, if discounts, when provided to one of the sides only any of the reasonable requests of the other side are rejected.
There is no tag on your account that says "empire player".
One of the primary points of making 0.0 more profitable is so that more people come out there. So if you want to partake after 0.0 gets boosted just come on out to 0.0.
Its called risk/reward balance. |
Yaay
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.09 01:06:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Yaay:
I would like to see documented proof, which includes the # of accounts you were using to achieve this amount. In addition subtract profits gained from manufacturing rigs, the only value that should be included is rat bounties, and market value of the loot and slavage recieved. For your time quotient you have to include the time it takes you to get to a station with it. Also you must include the time in percentage form to which you were not ratting on average due to hostiles. A snapshot of your wallet with 1 hour of ratting would help as well.
If you are going to keep repeating this, you might as well back it up with a bit more than our trust in what you say on a forum.
Here's an idea. Set standard goals for ratting that are common place in your corp that make sense. Get ships for ratting that, well, rat well. Get Skills that allow you to, well, rat well. Get common sense. Learn about market functions. Learn about investments and payouts. Train Hauling skills. Train more common sense. Ask your alliance to use common sense. Ask your alliance to actually invest in it's 0.0 space for the right reasons and the right ways.
I did my money making this last time with a Sacrelidge. 5 heavy assault launchers, 1 salvager. Quite honestly, I could have done better if I felt like grabbing a T2 BS from empire, but I like to PVP in my limited play time these days, so I've not bothered really.
If you want documented proof, get used to life sucking, I'm not here to provide you with all the answers to life. If you seriously can't figure out what's been done, then well, natural selection didn't favor you. God help us that some people were destined to be successful for their efforts while others weren't.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.09 07:42:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Yaay
Here's an idea. Set standard goals for ratting that are common place in your corp that make sense. Get ships for ratting that, well, rat well. Get Skills that allow you to, well, rat well. Get common sense. Learn about market functions. Learn about investments and payouts. Train Hauling skills. Train more common sense. Ask your alliance to use common sense. Ask your alliance to actually invest in it's 0.0 space for the right reasons and the right ways.
I did my money making this last time with a Sacrelidge. 5 heavy assault launchers, 1 salvager. Quite honestly, I could have done better if I felt like grabbing a T2 BS from empire, but I like to PVP in my limited play time these days, so I've not bothered really.
If you want documented proof, get used to life sucking, I'm not here to provide you with all the answers to life. If you seriously can't figure out what's been done, then well, natural selection didn't favor you. God help us that some people were destined to be successful for their efforts while others weren't.
Haha, way to resort to ad hominim attacks instead of actually backing up your evidence, bravo you have outdone yourself. CAOD is in a different forum.
"I'm better than you" continues to not be evidence. So lets do math, because I like math and it gives us a better ballpark. The only figure i'm going to take in account is bounties. You made 150 mil in 6 hours is your claim. Which is 25m/h in bounties. This is a bit highball for what I get in Feyth/Estoria but most of the regions you listed are npc 0.0 so they behave like -1.0 truesec. The biggest question is if you used another account to haul the items around and clean belts as you ratted for this would save you a lot of time. Because you have ratted recently getting a screenshot of an hours worth of ratting wouldnt be hard would it?
Although I can extrapolate from the approximations of how much you make per hour when we look at fountain ratting. if you make 75m/h in delve/stain/curse and only 56mil/h in fountain if we divide by 3 we get ~18.7m/h off bounties which seems reasonable for a well setup system.
Lets put it a different way:
9% of eve's characters are in 0.0, 0.0 feels empty.
How does Yaay encourage people to venture in 0.0 for more fights?
Fighting takes time, time is isk. How can 0.0 support the individual pilot over time (i include pvp time) better than empire?
I think the reward has to be worth it that empire corperations would be willing to fight or slip by gatecamps to get out into 0.0 for isk making operations. Not just to stay in 0.0 but to venture out in it from empire. I don't think that venture is worth it in the games current state, unless your corp has a presence in 0.0.
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Alvar Kesh
Ealurian Wolves
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2009.01.09 11:22:00 -
[448]
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Bullen karlssson
Swedish Aerospace Inc
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2009.01.09 13:41:00 -
[449]
Nothing more to say then yes please.
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Yaay
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.09 23:57:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Lets put it a different way:
9% of eve's characters are in 0.0, 0.0 feels empty.
How does Yaay encourage people to venture in 0.0 for more fights?
Fighting takes time, time is isk. How can 0.0 support the individual pilot over time (i include pvp time) better than empire?
I think the reward has to be worth it that empire corperations would be willing to fight or slip by gatecamps to get out into 0.0 for isk making operations. Not just to stay in 0.0 but to venture out in it from empire. I don't think that venture is worth it in the games current state, unless your corp has a presence in 0.0.
I know hardly any alliance or even if there is one that has died in the past year due to financial ruin and an inability to Muster ships for fights.
I make less in fountain because of the lack of nearby stations whether npc or alliance owned where I rat. The salvage is also slightly less valuable because honestly, the drone rigs are worthless. For any 0.0 entity, that issue is or should be a non issue.
25 Mil an hr for rat spawns is an average day for anybody with a clue, properly chained systems reward upwards of 40 mil an hour per 1 person they can hold. Typically 8-10 belts sustain 1 person who's not totally emo selfish. I ratted in a system with multiple people, so those numbers declined down to what probably was around 25 an hr.
Looting in a Sac requires all of 2 seconds since it's a close range ship that maximizes it's damage on NPCs the closer it gets.... defenders have no effect inside of 5km. I've also never claimed to loot everything when solo, only those things of value, although when I do run 2 accounts, I tend to bounty farm even faster, and make more from all the loot.
Salvaging has the same luxury of being in range already with that ship. T2 BS are just naturally ranged well and can salvage/tractor/loot better while dealing more damage, hense that comment about their profitability.
Per 1 salvage on the proper targets, I typically make about 800k. In stain it's more like 1.2 mil. In Fountian it's more like 4-500k. Good salvaging skills speed up the process considerably.
Another consideration of 0.0 is salvaging fight wrecks, which tend to pay out enormously and which 99% of 0.0 people ignore. In 1 fight against the monkeys, I salvaged about 140 million. And most of the wrecks Were either lost to time or other people. Granted, you have to actually win a fight to even get to that point... god forbid.
Where in empire can you do those sorts of things, and in timely fashion. A considerable collection of agent missions take more than a 15 minute window which 0.0 ratting allows. Empire lacks Moons, Legit loot, faction spawns, commercial value, Renters, and a considerable number of other valuse that 0.0 already holds. 0.0 does not need a boost, although empire does need a nerf.
That said, If the devs ever, for any reason, actually listen to the general consent on insurance failures, I'll be all for a more profitable 0.0, as the rewards will start to match the risk more appropriately.
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