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Big 0.0 Revamp Thread - Incentivizing 0.0 and stuff

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Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.12.30 02:23:00 - [331] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 30/12/2008 02:23:59 Originally by: Yaay 0.0 is dead b/c it's a massive time sink. Thinking that changing pos from moons to planets is all that's needed isn't going to do jack. As for increasing ratting spawns in 0.0, I mean wtf you carebear. We're going to invest more in this system, so lets have the blood raiders come in larger quantities so we can farm them for money? That defies so much logic a 3 yr old could do better. Reduce hp on structures, remove pos from moons, increase sig radius of pos structures, limit cyno jammer and jump bridge activities... My base assumption is that the time sink simply isn't worth it. As a matter of fact is says that right in the post you quoted. I didn't get into details because details are for devs to work out. I really could care less whether the solution for upgrading space involves increased spawns, roids, agents, whatever. The high level idea is that space needs to increase in value to account for the investment in time to make it worthwhile. The risk vs. reward structure is completely skewed so that there's no incentive for new players to band together to claim space in 0.0. You see it is a massive timesink, but people will invest in a time sink if the payoff is there. Today it's not. Ignoring your editorialization I wouldn't have a problem with any of the 4 mentioned ideas you've listed. As a matter of fact all 4 have been discussed in the past both here and on the goonfleet forums. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Blaumunkt GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 02:30:00 - [332] This is a sober, well-considered, conservative beginning to a discussion that's long overdue. Baby steps are better than nerf/buff sledgehammers, and this is a good start.
Davor Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 02:53:00 - [333] I support this
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.12.30 03:24:00 - [334] I dont agree with everything, but 0.0 needs a major revamp.
waa r	Posted - 2008.12.30 03:53:00 - [335] Edited by: waa r on 30/12/2008 03:54:51 Posting to support this.
Xencieth	Posted - 2008.12.30 04:14:00 - [336] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON This post is essentially extracted from our conversations in Iceland regarding 0.0. I'm not going to get too into detail regarding mechanics... This is another goonie idea to change game mechanics to help save Detorid. Sorry guys, but Detorid will Burn, goonie ideas wont stop this. 90% of support votes are from goonswarm or morsus mihi which is telling everything. Originally by: Romulus Silvia (goon) i didn't read the OP. i was just told i had to vote for it.
Yaay Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.30 04:16:00 - [337] Edited by: Yaay on 30/12/2008 04:17:45 Edited by: Yaay on 30/12/2008 04:16:49 Edited by: Yaay on 30/12/2008 04:16:15 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 30/12/2008 02:23:59 Originally by: Yaay 0.0 is dead b/c it's a massive time sink. Thinking that changing pos from moons to planets is all that's needed isn't going to do jack. As for increasing ratting spawns in 0.0, I mean wtf you carebear. We're going to invest more in this system, so lets have the blood raiders come in larger quantities so we can farm them for money? That defies so much logic a 3 yr old could do better. Reduce hp on structures, remove pos from moons, increase sig radius of pos structures, limit cyno jammer and jump bridge activities... My base assumption is that the time sink simply isn't worth it. As a matter of fact is says that right in the post you quoted. I didn't get into details because details are for devs to work out. I really could care less whether the solution for upgrading space involves increased spawns, roids, agents, whatever. The high level idea is that space needs to increase in value to account for the investment in time to make it worthwhile. The risk vs. reward structure is completely skewed so that there's no incentive for new players to band together to claim space in 0.0. You see it is a massive timesink, but people will invest in a time sink if the payoff is there. Today it's not. Ignoring your editorialization I wouldn't have a problem with any of the 4 mentioned ideas you've listed. As a matter of fact all 4 have been discussed in the past both here and on the goonfleet forums. People who don't come to 0.0 now don't care about risk v reward. They care about not losing anything at all. Hell even 0.0 has taken this turn as you hardly ever see anyone fight w/o overwhelming odds. 0.0 already is on carebear mode with insurance, officers, moons, and everything in between. You want to go and tweak risk, nuke empire, don't buff 0.0. I personally won't go for any of these changes unless they come with a nuke to insurance completely. Even then, 0.0 is already profitable enough. Blame the ******* leadership if they don't share the wealth of those 100bil in moons. It's the Economy Stupid
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:04:00 - [338] Originally by: Yaay People who don't come to 0.0 now don't care about risk v reward. They care about not losing anything at all. Hell even 0.0 has taken this turn as you hardly ever see anyone fight w/o overwhelming odds. 0.0 already is on carebear mode with insurance, officers, moons, and everything in between. You want to go and tweak risk, nuke empire, don't buff 0.0. I personally won't go for any of these changes unless they come with a nuke to insurance completely. Even then, 0.0 is already profitable enough. Blame the ******* leadership if they don't share the wealth of those 100bil in moons. Incen"tive\, n. [L. incentivum.] That which moves or influences the mind, or operates on the passions; that which incites, or has a tendency to incite, to determination or action; that which prompts to good or ill; motive; spur; as, the love of money, and the desire of promotion, are two powerful incentives to action. What your crystal ball tells you people care about doesn't make for a very compelling game. If 0.0 was worth the effort, more people would expend it. More people working to conquer space means more fighting. Some variety would be a good thing. Most of 0.0 is far from profitable in comparison to the cost of maintaining the space, and the benefit to the individual is tiny when contrasted against NPC space, or one of the few regions which for some strange reason have NPC truesec throughout. I'd personally love to nuke empire, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I'll settle for the realistic. Originally by:* Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:10:00 - [339] Originally by: Xencieth This is another goonie idea to change game mechanics to help save Detorid. Sorry guys, but Detorid will Burn, goonie ideas wont stop this. 90% of support votes are from goonswarm or morsus mihi which is telling everything. These are actually ideas extracted from others at fanfest. Most are neither original or my own. This isn't the thread for your terrible and poorly written propaganda. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Gramtar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:45:00 - [340] Edited by: Gramtar on 30/12/2008 05:47:00 While nearly all 0.0 regions are "claimed" by some alliance or another, the vast majority of systems are empty. The reason for this is simple. You can make more isk running level 4 missions in empire than doing anything in 90% of 0.0. Exploration simply moved some plexes from being completely static (a few static complexes essentially remain). The vast majority of 0.0 is unused, because it's worthless space. Whatever the solutions to this, it should not be tied solely to stations and outposts. There should be a mechanism to improve the quality of a system through sovereignty, and it shouldn't require the investment of dropping an outpost, at least to start out. This is important if we are to encourage non-space holding corporations and alliances to venture forth to 0.0, which is a worthwhile goal. The aim should be to improve 0.0 for all players, not just those alliances that currently hold stations and outposts.

Coranor Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:48:00 - [341] A lot of these proposals have been doing the rounds through the community in various forms for a while now and they're not bad but not perfect solutions either but then when will we ever find a perfect solution. 0.0 for average corp members isn't all that ** hot compared to running lvl 4 missions. For corps and alliances ofc its a different story what with high end moons. This may filter down to the members in different ways but will never have the obvious appeal of money directly in your wallet. Problem with making ratting or mining better is that you make ships relatively cheaper which messes up your pvp risk/reward ratio. Losing a ship should still hurt after all. Boost 0.0 too much and it becomes that much easier to make up the isk for even a dread. I don't particularly think that this is needed. The sov claiming pos at the planets is not a bad idea so long as the pos at moons can still be armed to the same standard as they are now, so they can be used for staging pos. Otherwise every planet would have a pos and attacking anywhere would be next to impossible so no one attacks anyone ever again and ccp shuts down the servers. Best way to do it in my opinion would probably be to differentiate between station sov and industrial sov. Use pos to determine industrial sov in non station systems and use the station to determine sov in station systems. 0.0 was far more dynamic when we were fighting over stations to take the actual space instead of waiting for reinforced timers bored out of our on both sides of the fight. Arm the station ofc and up the hp so that we need to use dreads to do the job. Dreads still need to have their role. One side takes the station, the other side takes it back and on and on we went till someone either ran out of ships or will to fight over that station anymore. Far better than sitting waiting for timers and repping crews and all that boring **e. Just get your fleet and go take the station, make the other side stop you. Hell even timezone ping pong like bkg long long ago produced a pretty epic battle for that system.
motomysz Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:55:00 - [342] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah POS fuelling is tedious * Ice mining process is extremely boring. * Distributing materials is repetetive. * Trade goods cannot be produced in the general area. * Administrative nightmare for large alliances. What ever happened to the idea of pos fuel pellets which can be produced from the pos fuel components and then transported and fed to the pos in single 1-hour/1-day/1-week units?
Zzelle Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 06:43:00 - [343] 0.0 definitely could use a boost and I think everyone's pretty sick of POS warfare as it exists today. +1
Kayosoni Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.30 06:51:00 - [344] Approving this topic. Don't listen to yaay, he has no idea what he's talking about and dies in stupid ways everyday. Moon mining pos need a huge nerf, planetary pos idea is pretty good considering there is no better idea for a 100% decoupling of sov from pos. Planetary pos also need a boost as even with pos gunners it's pretty much impossible to do anything to a decent sized attacking fleet. More changes I see that are good: Jump bridge should be limited to moon pos so that they are vulnerable to smaller roaming gangs. No jump bridges in same system as cyno jammer. DDs don't work in same system as cyno jammer. Un****ting the rest of 0.0: true-sec means something (npc space isn't the only place with 3x 1.7m spawns anymore pls) In fact, completely remove belt rats from Player owned Constellation Sov space. More exploration encounters should be there. Introduce advanced Exploration and consutrction to build or find new static belts, systems within systems (basically making a new system by exploration). Exploration yields veins of t2 production stuff, etc. there's tons of stuff you can do to uncrap 0.0. and it needs it badly.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.30 06:56:00 - [345] Edited by: Kayosoni on 30/12/2008 06:57:37 I also really like the idea of having NPCs go to player owned Sov4 space. Have a way of making alliance LP or something (every time alliance member does mission for such and such NPCs alliance gets a small amount of LP) and you can have alliance LP store where alliance executor can buy things like agents and place them in alliance owned stations. Just another way of "upgrading" space. There needs to be a way of allowing players to add static content to systems. This is the biggest thing to uncraping 0.0. The Outposts were the first major step in this. It's now been 3 years since something as major was added to the game. There has been nothing of real substance added to eve since 2005.
Hambonius Omega GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 08:38:00 - [346] I too am supporting this
Ravan Glass	Posted - 2008.12.30 09:32:00 - [347] Edited by: Ravan Glass on 30/12/2008 09:33:57 first of all I will say that I am not trying to bash any one ,but it is hard to listen to idea's on how to improve 0.0 space when it is being pushed by a coalition that own's half of 0.0. secondly , I found a lot of the posts talking about the fact that most people are staying in empire. It is my opinion that it is pretty much impossible to move out to 0.0 without either becoming a renter for a coalition or joining a coalition. the day's of lone alliances seemed to be long passed. if alliances could hold a couple systems without getting smashed by the big guys, then the rewards would be greater then the risks. And about getting rid of local. i think that would kill ratting and mining in 0.0, who would put an expensive ship in a situation where it is defenseless and can be killed without notice. it would just push more people back into empire
Ivena Amethyst	Posted - 2008.12.30 11:15:00 - [348] +1 -------- Is that an Itty V in your pocket or ar you just happy to see me?
Thali Panacea	Posted - 2008.12.30 14:00:00 - [349] Supporting this! work, buy, consume, die
Peaches Nthala	Posted - 2008.12.30 14:04:00 - [350] I would reactivate 2 accounts if 0.0 gets an overhaul!

Xenuphobic GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 14:06:00 - [351] Edited by: Xenuphobic on 30/12/2008 14:05:55 I too am supporting this glorious ideas.
Ariad Valens	Posted - 2008.12.30 14:42:00 - [352] I support the idea of Sovereignty being moved from Moons to Planets. I also have an idea about how to bring Planets into the game and make 0.0 both more lucrative and more interesting: 1. As proposed Sovereignty should be based on POS's anchored at Planets not Moons. 2. Planets should have attributes such as a population, resources and facilities. Based on these the Planet will produce certain goods. Population can be increased (up to a certain level) by adding Colonists/Refugees etc. Facilities can be built by the Corporation owning the Planetary POS. 3. Population and Facilities should be vulnerable to attack via Planetary Bombardment. Ships should be provided with the ability to orbit a planet and bombard the Planet, reducing the population and damaging facilities. Perhaps only Dreads or Battleships should have this ability. 3. To provide Sovereignty the Planet must be provided with certain goods it requires, which will depend on the population, resources and facilities. For example a planet may produce excess Planetary Vehicles but need to import Food. Only if the import requirements are met will Sovereignty be provided. 4. The import and export of goods from a Planet is via NPC Convoys. These Convoys are not controlled by players and will travel between the Planet and the Planet's POS at random times, taking goods produced by the Planet to the POS and imported goods from the POS to the Planet. These convoys will be vulnerable to attack and hence will provide rich targets for roaming gangs and warrant protection from the POS owners. This is not a fully developed idea so I would welcome any comments on how it can be improved.
Laechyd Eldgorn Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.30 14:47:00 - [353] While I support general idea to make 0.0 less stagnant, I do not think making RATS better would help anyone. There should be something else to gain for combat pilots. Exploration is nice but for larger number of people there's just simply not enough of sites per region. In my opinion making income just by killing npc's shouldn't be first solution to anyone at first place. I'm a combat pilot but I surely don't make much isk by systematically killing npc's, it should be something 3 month old newbie does. Also npc's should be much more intelligent. On the other hand separating moon mining from sovereignity claims is a great idea im hoping it will come in game soon. However I don't think it will solve the problem easily claiming large areas, since it's all about who can get biggest blob and just simply crush anyone. That's why we basically have so few player "factions" atm anyway. While being realistic in some way it doesn't explain so easy logistics part. I'll be supporting general idea though. :/
Ariad Valens	Posted - 2008.12.30 14:59:00 - [354] How about moving Sovereignty from Alliances to Corporations. This should provide for more fragmented 0.0 politics. Decentralisation of power away from large Alliances should encourage a more dymanic 0.0 environment.
Duranium	Posted - 2008.12.30 15:22:00 - [355]
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:12:00 - [356] Originally by: motomysz What ever happened to the idea of pos fuel pellets which can be produced from the pos fuel components and then transported and fed to the pos in single 1-hour/1-day/1-week units? If that was the "flogging the dead horse" proposal I believe it's been on the agenda. It was already voted up I just don't recall if we've already discussed that particular item or if it's on the agenda for Iceland instead. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Xanja 2H Industries	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:37:00 - [357] Originally by: Coranor Best way to do it in my opinion would probably be to differentiate between station sov and industrial sov. Use pos to determine industrial sov in non station systems and use the station to determine sov in station systems. 0.0 was far more dynamic when we were fighting over stations to take the actual space instead of waiting for reinforced timers bored out of our **** on both sides of the fight. Arm the station ofc and up the hp so that we need to use dreads to do the job. Dreads still need to have their role. I like this ^^^^ general idea supported -----------------
SkwisgaarSkwigelf C.R.M Productions Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:07:00 - [358] My name is Batman, and I approve this message.
Mildaria Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:29:00 - [359] Supported. <shots pos>
Edmund Khan Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:36:00 - [360] Failure. Sov claiming towers at planets just means full coverage in every single important system. Instead of just three POS at moons, everyone will spam all seven or so planets. Which is even worse than now. And if they have more HP, well, good luck with that... Like said few times before... System is based around the sun, why not put a single claiming tower at the sun. With massive HP stuff and bonuses, very expensive.... If you want takeover sov, you have to kill it, simple as that. You'll have to put real effort to kill it, and it will be worth defending. No more sov claiming with haulers, no more pos spam. Keep the industrial/whatever POS at moons.



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